The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 028: Jeff Goins – The Art of Work… Be A Little Bit Uncomfortable Everyday

Episode Date: June 15, 2015

Episode 028: Jeff Goins – The Art of Work… Be A Little Bit Uncomfortable Everyday Jeff Goins’ latest book, “The Art of Work” is a powerful piece of literature that combines inspiring stories and how they can apply to all of our daily lives.  His book has morphed into a full blown movement.    Originally from Chicago, Jeff moved to Nashville after graduating from college and spending a year traveling with a band. In college, he studied Spanish and Religion and spent part of his Junior year in Spain, which unlocked a passion for travel, writing, and making a difference in the world. After a year of letter-writing and long-distance phone calls, he moved to Tennessee to “see about a girl.” In 2008, he married her. Now, he lives with his wife Ashley, their son Aiden, and their dog Lyric just outside of Nashville. He’s the former Communications Director for Adventures in Missions, a nonprofit organization, and spends his time writing books and trying to take over the Internet. He’s written and guest-blogged for over 100 magazines, publications, and blogs. He’s also a speaker, online writing teacher, and consultant. He’s written four books including The Art of Work (March 2015), teach a popular online course called Tribe Writers, and makes the world’s best guacamole. Episode 028: Jeff Goins – The Art of Work… Be A Little Bit Uncomfortable Everyday Subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher Radio. The Learning Leader Show “Ideas are cheap. Actions are costly.” Some Questions I Ask: What is one characteristic all successful people share? Why couldn’t you call yourself a writer? Why did your book publishers want you to open with a different story? When was a specific moment that you knew you had created something special? What is the primary advice you give to people? What does the term learning leader mean to you? Which individual leader has had the most influence on you? In This Episode, You Will Learn: How a lot of successful people have many fears The power of storytelling and the impact it has on people The principles in finding your vocation/legacy What it was like saying “Babe, you don’t have to go back to work” Why we need to all be a little bit uncomfortable everyday The elements that define a quality life  “Show me your friends, and I’ll show you your future.” – John Wooden Continue Learning Go To Jeff’s website: http://goinswriter.com/   Read Jeff’s book: The Art of Work    Follow John on Twitter: @JeffGoins You may also like these episodes: Episode 001: How To Become A Master Connector With Jayson Gaignard From MasterMind Talks Episode 002: How To Take Over And Set Bigger Goals With Chris Brogan Episode 004: How Todd Wagner (and Mark Cuban) Sold Broadcast.com To Yahoo! For $5.7 Billion Episode 010: Shane Snow – How To Accelerate Success Using Smart Cuts Did you enjoy the podcast? This was a jam packed episode full of great content.  Ben Greenfield is leader who is constantly learning in order to help us all live a better life. Who do you know that needs to hear this?  Send them to The Learning Leader Show! Episode edited by the great J Scott Donnell   Bio From GoinsWriter.com Hi. I’m Jeff, the author of four books including The Art of Work, which you can get right now. A little about me: I believe we all have a story to tell, but sometimes the best stories don’t get the attention they deserve. I’ve been writing for most of my life, but only recently stepped into my true calling as a writer. I started this blog in 2010 with some burning questions: How do writers make a living? What does it really take to get published? How do you pursue a passion without burning yourself out? What I found in this search was a community of like-minded individuals sharing many of the same struggles. Here is where we wage war on the blank page, where we band together to find purpose in our art and lives, where we discover our true voices. If you have a passion for creativity and changing the world, this is for you. I usually publish new articles and podcasts two to three times per week and always seek to serve my readers.         

A leader is somebody who is actively engaged in their own, you know, continued education. So it's not about going to some class or signing up for graduate school. Those things are fine. I don't have any problem with that. But the leaders that I know and probably that you know, Ryan, who are changing things, have the humility to realize that there's always more to learn and also have that rigorous discipline that my friend Andrew had where it's not about, oh, I'm going to do this for season and then so that I can stop doing that and actually do what I want to do, rather they're taking

that discipline and they're applying it in different fields, you know, reading different books or, you know, learning some new craft or something. But yeah, I mean, it's my friend Dan Miller says the day that I stop learning and stop growing, dig a hole and push me in it because I'm dead. You know, as long as I'm alive, I need to be learning and growing. And I think the smartest, most successful people I know are those people who are continuing to educate themselves. Are leaders born or are they made?

Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. And welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Tonight's guest is another really interesting guy. It's Jeff Goins.

Jeff is the author of the best-selling book, The Art of Work. A book that really moves people, has some inspirational stories mixed in with science that is really, really good. I highly recommend it. He also has an extremely popular blog titled Goinswriters.com, G-O-I-N-S-Writer.com. I encourage you to check that out too. On our conversation tonight, we got into a few things in a jam-packed episode. We talked about big moments in its life. and how he was able to change his life by the work that he did.

Really, really, really interesting. Also, the quote, life is lived forward, but understood backward. We dive into that as well. And then we also talked about goal setting in Michael Hyatt's delusional zone and the discomfort zone and why it's so important to get into that discomfort zone. Ladies, gentlemen, without further ado, it's Jeff Goines. All right, Jeff, so you have studied and spoken with a lot of lot of very successful people, a lot of people who have fought through adversity in the work that

you do. And I have a question about those people. And specifically, it's what's one or two things that all of those people that you've spoken with, either the ones who fight through adversity, the ones that have achieved and accelerated success? What's one characteristic that they all seem to share? Yeah, that's a great question, Ryan. I love that question. Because the people whose stories fascinate me the most are not superstars. They're not, you know, superhuman people that we can't relate to. They're ordinary people who are doing extraordinary things. And some of these people are famous and a lot of them aren't.

But I love when I find somebody who's doing something amazing and I see something human in them that I can relate to. Two things that I have identified in people who have discovered their life's work and are, leaving a legacy now, making an impact on the world now with the work that they're doing. One, they are not particularly courageous people. They're not whims, but at the same time, they're not people who do not fear. One of the interesting themes that I saw in all these different remarkable lives is that they never felt particularly courageous when they were doing something that we would call brave.

In other words, they did it afraid. They didn't wait to feel brave enough to do it. They did something in the midst of, you know, shaking in their boots and kind of trudged through adversity, you know, faced some insurmountable challenge and kind of pushed through it in spite of how they felt. And I thought that was interesting. And yeah. Yeah. The second thing, you're making me think now, I remember kind of identifying these mindset shifts that people have to go through. in order to really make an impact on the world with the work that they do.

One is that you have to learn to do it afraid, and if you wait to feel brave, you're going to be waiting a long time. Another one of those is that they were selfless. They realized that their work ultimately really wasn't about them. It was about the impact that they were leaving. And I think that there's something really telling in that, you know, a lesson about success, that success isn't so much about what you do with your life as much as I think it is about what you leave behind. In other words, are you doing everything for your namesake so that people remember you?

Are you doing things that have some sort of multiplication factor so that when you're gone and we've forgotten who you are, the work that you started is being continued by other people? And that was something that I saw again and again in people's lives. Very, very interesting and great answer. I appreciate that, Jeff. So that leads me to you and what you're all about and how you've kind of created the journey that you're on. I think, you know, this show, the Learning Leader Show is about learning from other great leaders and their journeys so we can hopefully, you know, that will positively affect our own journey. So if you take a minute to describe a little bit about who you are and how you got on the current path that you're on of the.

being a best-selling author, fantastic writer that tons and tons of people are huge fan of. So you have a lot going on. You've accomplished a lot already at a young age. So explain a little bit about how this has all come about. Well, I will try. I spent a book trying to answer this question. I think the short answer to that very nice question, Ryan, is I don't feel particularly successful. that's not some sense of false humility.

I, I think like most people, feel like I'm in the midst of my journey, trying to get to where I want to go. And every step of the way, I realize that there's another mountain to climb. There's another obstacle to face. Certainly, there are things that I've done that are worth celebrating. And I'm incredibly grateful for. But I don't kind of look back at what, you know, has happened over the past few years and go, man, isn't this great?

I'm just kind of kind of, you know, I'm just going to sit here and enjoy the view. because I feel like I'm still climbing the mountain. But to answer that question with a little bit more detail, for years I dreamed of writing and I refused to call myself a writer. And after a series of conversations and gradual epiphanies and discoveries about what I was really meant to do with my life, nothing super esoteric or anything. Just conversation after conversation with friend after friend, I realized this, this is really what I'm wired to do.

I'm a writer and I've done this my whole life, but I've never taken it seriously. So I one day decided I was going to start calling myself a writer. And that, as simple as it sounds really changed everything because I started approaching the work that I wanted to do with what Stephen Pressfield would call a professional mindset. I turned pro. I started thinking, okay, if I'm a writer, what do writers do? Well, they get up every morning regardless of what they have to do. and they write for a little while.

So I started doing that before my job started. And then I'd go to work and I'd come back home and I'd write a little bit more. And that turned into publishing blog posts and just kind of talking about things like we're talking about here, leadership. I talked about my writing journey itself, marketing, business. And as I did that over the course of a year, more and more people started to listen. And I was doing it every day publishing a blog post. and more and more people started listening.

I started connecting with people who were doing similar things. And at the end of the year, I had a book contract. And the next year, I had started this business, teaching online courses to other writers and creative professionals, kind of sharing some of the things that I was learning as I was doing them. I was really going and learning something and then sharing it on my blog or one of my courses. By the end of that second year,

this business that I had started kind of on the side, really to supplement my income so that my wife, who was pregnant at the time, could stay home with our son because she wanted to do that. And we couldn't afford to do that. That little side gig ended up replacing her income, my income. And then by the end of the year, I think we had come close to tripling our income. So shortly after that, I quit my job and have basically been doing that ever since, blogging, writing, speaking, and teaching these online courses.

Very cool. Very, very cool. I appreciate that. want to take you back a couple of weeks, Jeff. So I, uh, as I'm preparing for our time together today, I, uh, wanted to reread your book, uh, the art of work, bestselling book, the art of work. And part of the times I read is after I do a workout, uh, and I, and I, my cool down, my relaxation time is I get on the elliptical and I know people have their thought process about, that's not a helpful exercise. But for me, I enjoy it. That's how I relax. I read. I go on the

I'll let's go for 30 minutes and just read, and it's almost more of just an enjoyable place for me to read. However, in this particular day, I'm in a gym full of people, and I'm reading your book, and I'm cracking it open again on an iPad, starting from the beginning, and I start crying in a big way. And this is in regards to the story of Eric Miller, his son, Garrett, that you write so great about in your book. And I was, I got to, I just got to ask, when you're writing this, are you envisioning this type of story playing out? Meaning, you know, some 30 year old or so guy in the middle of the gym, reading your book, crying with a gym full of people because the story really, really can hit home. Well, first, let's just acknowledge that what you call a cool down. I call an intense workout.

Okay. Doing 30 minutes on the elliptical. Okay. Second of all, yeah, I mean, I think that success for me means as a writer means I'm writing things that move me in hopes that they'll move other people. And in the book, I quote Frederick Beekner, who is this author, he was a minister for a while, a school teacher, did a bunch of different things. But he's really known for this quote where he says that your vocation is the place where your deepest joy meets the world's deepest need. and I think there's just something incredibly practical about that in anything that you do. You need to be doing what you love, but doing it in a way that meets some need in the world.

And for a writer, for me, that means something as simple as writing, something that I'm passionate about that has moved me, that story when I talked to Eric and Garrett, and they told me their story, I was moved. And honestly, I was moved very quickly from skepticism. him. This guy, Eric, reached out to me via email and said, hey, I know you're writing a book about calling. I was in the very early stages of that. And he said, I think you'd be interested in, you know, my son's story. And I was like, okay, all right, you know, how great could it be? And I kind of skimmed the email. I was like, he was an Eagle Scout and he did that. I'm like,

okay, great, whatever. Like, cool. A lot of people are Eagle Scouts. And then when I got him on the phone and we talked about it, I was like, oh, oh, your son got cancer when he was five years old. and the doctors gave them five years to live. And then you guys went and did all these extraordinary things in spite of the obstacles facing you. That moved me. And I wanted to open the book with that story. When I was writing the book, I kind of moved things all over the place.

And I ultimately decided really against the council of several people, I moved that story to the beginning because I thought, this is where we start. This is a book about taking the opportunities that life has. given you in realizing they are not perfect and still doing something remarkable with them. And if a five-year-old boy who gets a brain tumor who goes on to live this incredible life, beating the odds, you know, running a triathlon every year for, you know, 12 years with his dad, doing it by himself, climbing Machu Picchu, volunteering his time for war veterans, starting a nonprofit, helping, you know, blind kids because he was left blind.

If he can do something so remarkable with, frankly, a really terrible hand that he was dealt in life, then what excuse do we have to not take what life has given us and do something remarkable with it as well? Powerful, man. I love that part. Why would a publisher or editor not want that to be a story you open with? Well, I don't know. I mean, I was talking with a friend and he said, he said, you need to start with you. and then move into the story.

And so that's all, I mean, I kind of did that. I started with the author's note and, you know, you asked this question that lots of people have asked me over, you know, past few years. You know, I get to basically get up every day and live my dream and it's not as, you know, rainbows and butterflies as it sounds. But I realize how lucky I am and people have asked me over the past couple of years, how did you get to do this? So this book initially was an attempt to just kind of tell that story.

But when I got into it, and I started finding other people's stories, I realized this isn't really about my story. It's about the principles it takes to find your vocation, do work that matters, and ultimately leave a legacy, leave an impact on the world. And I wanted a powerful store. So I wanted to acknowledge that, and I did that kind of in the author's note, hey, this is kind of how this book came to be. And then very quickly, we jumped into that story. But I think, you know, these kinds of books, Ryan, you're probably familiar with this. the typical kind of how-to personal development book is basically, hey, I'm awesome, therefore you should go try to be half as awesome as me.

And that never resonated with me. And in fact, the first draft of the book read a lot like that and I didn't like it, which was why I went out and found a bunch of other people's stories. The research of this book kind of came, you know, halfway through the process of writing it. It was really interesting how it all came together. I love that aspect of it because I don't think the, you know, the research. A lot of people who haven't written a book don't understand all that goes into it.

And there's so much, the great books have so many of those great stories. And one of my all-time favorite books is Give and Take by Adam Grant. I love that book. Yeah. And that opens with a story and it follows up with the science and stories behind being a giver. And I think I thought of that when I was reading your book as well to say this is how people don't, you know, when you're going through any type of training or reading or you're trying to learn. I think people inherently remember stories far more than they just remember text.

Yeah. So it's all about how can you weave in these great, great stories that move people mixed in with some of the science and other research that you've done. Yeah, I agree. I mean, when I talk to people even now, just, you know, it's been a couple months since the book has come out, I asked them, what did you remember about this book? And it's this story or that story. It's not, well, you cited, you know, such and such piece of research about, you know, why, you know, where motivation comes from and how long it, you know, takes to actually get good at your, you know, your calling or something.

No, it was, oh, I really connected with Ginny's story or I loved Eric's story. And that moved me. And I think there's something powerful about really art, you know, taking something creative, you know, that's going to capture people's attention. and then through that engagement delivering some sort of principle, some sort of teaching that's going to stick with people, but really the vehicle for doing that is a story. Yeah, exactly. I want to talk to you now a little bit about moments or inflection points in your life. Can you think of a specific moment? And it might be recent, I don't know, but a specific moment in your life to where you thought back to, you thought to yourself, wow, like I've really achieved.

some sort of goals or I've moved people. I've done what I'm meant to do. Yeah. For me, that always happens retrospectively. I don't like, like, it takes a little bit of reflection and I go, oh, oh my gosh, that's like that thing that I wanted to do for years and years and years just sort of happened last week and I didn't even realize it. And so I can't remember who said this, but basically it's the quote that life has lived

forward but understood backward. And I think that's true. We make sense of our lives, not as we're living them in the moment. Most of the time, we're just sort of responding, you know, it's just, it's, we're living in the melodrama of the moment. But every once in a while we get these glimpses of the significant story that we get to be a part of. And I, you know, try to stop and take notice.

Yeah, I mean, I would say there was this moment. There were lots of great moments in kind of that two years. journey that I, you know, kind of blazed through at the beginning where you're asking about my story. But a big moment for me was remember that I, I had this blog, I was writing every day on it. It was really just about self-expression. I realized I'm a writer, what are writers do they write. And I thought, I had some vague idea that in like 10 years I would be a published author and a speaker. And I remember writing down some goals, you know, publish a book, you know, start speaking, book consulting gigs.

I had all these kind of goals, and these were basically 10-year goals when I started this process. And a big goal was replace my wife's income so that she could stay home. And I would have these two jobs, this side gig, this internet business thing, and then my, you know, day job working for a nonprofit. And I remember September sometime of that second year, well, my wife was still on maternity leave. She had extended her maternity leave. She got like two months, I think, and then she could add like two months of paid leave

and then she could add like a final third month of unpaid leave. And when she was kind of coming to the end of that, realizing she either needed to quit or go back to work and she, like the plan was always for her to go back to work because we couldn't afford for her to stay home. But over the course of those three months, she got really, you know, attached to her son and a lot of things changed for her as she was a new mother. and I had been, you know, doing this business online and all of this money was just going into a PayPal account and I didn't, I don't manage the books for our family. And so it was just going into this like imaginary place on the internet.

And one day I opened the PayPal account and I look at it and I go, oh, oh, this is a big deal. And I asked her to come over to me and I open up the, you know, I turned the laptop to her and I showed her just kind of the money that had been coming in every month. And, you know, first it was like a few hundred dollars a month, and it was a few thousand dollars a month. And it kept growing steadily. Every month, you know, off of book sales, basically, I was making more money than the previous month. There was this momentum, this snowball thing that was happening. And I pointed to, you know, like August. And I said, see right there, like that's your salary.

Like, now we've made your salary for the year. And then I said, and then this month we've made even more money. And I looked at her and I said, babe, you don't have to go back to work. And that was, there were, I mean, there were moments after that where I made more money and I did more, you know, quote unquote, amazing things. But that was a really big moment for me because it was this thing that I dreamed of doing. I remember in March, okay, so this was September. I remember in March telling a friend, I'm going to launch this, I'm going to self-publish this e-book and I'm going to make enough money that I can replace my wife's income. And I remember saying those words, not completely believing them.

And so that was a big, that was a moment. And then like three months after that, we looked at that bank account again and realized I'd replaced my income and it had continued to grow, as I mentioned. And that was sort of this like, whoa, that happened. We did that because I was so focused for two years, really, on the daily work of just doing it. You know, just kind of, it didn't even feel like a hustle. It just felt like, you know, you get up and you do it and you don't really think about it. It's like when you get into shape.

You know, you, like you feel like that overweight or out of shape person that you were two years ago, but you just keep getting up and, you know, doing your thing. And yeah, you push yourself and there's moments where, you know, there's these big payoff moments where you, you know, lift a little bit more than you did last week or whatever. But for the most part, it's just kind of this plotting along, or at least that's been my experience. And then there are these days where you look in the mirror or you step on the scale. and you go, oh, like doing something consistently every day for two years, like, it produces results.

But I wasn't really seeing the results as they were happening. And then all of a sudden I looked back and I realized how far I'd come. It makes me think about, you know, I've spoken, been fortunate to speak with a lot of really, really intelligent creative leaders like yourself. And one of the topics that comes up often is comfort zone. And that's a quality that successful people. seem to possess is the fact that they are much more willing to constantly push the boundaries of that comfort zone and leap outside of it.

It feels to me like that's, you've had a lot of experience doing that. What is your thought process around that? And one, how you, you know, were able to get outside of your comfort zone and that's how you grow. And also, how can everybody do those things? I think it might surprise people. who know anything about my story that I'm not a quote unquote dreamer. Like my wife might say differently.

You know, when I was 25, I was a dreamer. I was like coming home every day from work, not loving my job, not hating it. Like a lot of people, it was just, it was okay. You know, there were certainly moments where I really enjoyed it and a lot of moments where I didn't. And the more I did it, the less I enjoyed it. And I felt guilty about that. And I would come home with some big idea and my wife would go, okay, cool.

You know, I hope that happens. And, you know, of course, it didn't happen because ideas are cheap and action is costly. But as I started to get serious about this, I kind of looked around at a lot of my friends and peers who were dreamers, people in their late 20s who had some big idea of what they wanted their life to look like. I mean, you know, it's no secret that the millennial generation wants to change the world, whatever that means. And a lot of them aren't because what it takes to change the world is it takes discipline.

It takes getting up every day and doing kind of boring stuff that doesn't immediately pay off. But then, you know, as I mentioned, you know, a little bit down the way, two years down the way, you look back and realize everything that you accomplished. And I think a lot of people want to, are willing to be temporarily very uncomfortable and then go back to comfort. And very few people are willing to be just a little bit uncomfortable every single day and just pushing it a little bit further. It really isn't about, you know, some big win or some lucky break. I think it's about just pushing yourself a little bit every day.

And when I look at my life and the moments that I, the breakthrough moments that I've had, certainly in health and fitness, but also in creative endeavors like writing a book or even financial or business endeavors, it's never like, hey, I had this big idea and I went and did it and I made a million dollars and it was awesome. It's usually, hey, I had this big idea and I realized, oh my gosh, this is way more work than I thought and I get overwhelmed and I want to give up and I do give up and then I talk to somebody and they tell me not to give up and then I realized that, you know, I just got to break down this insurmountable task into, you know, a million little tasks and every day just do a little bit to push it forward. I think that's

more difficult than it sounds. It's easier to have a big idea and do some sort of binge, you know, experience over the weekend where you, you know, try to lose 20 pounds or, you know, make a bunch of money or write a book. And I don't think there's any problem with doing that once in a while, but that tends to lead to kind of this, you know, binging and starving yourself sort of cycle where you do it with intensity and then you don't do it. And for me, the biggest breakthroughs have always been the result of being a little bit uncomfortable every day. I don't want to write 500 words for this book that, you know, I'll get to eventually when I feel inspired, but fine, I'll do it anyway. And I think with goal setting and, you know,

what we're talking about here, my friend Michael Hyatt has a really great, I think, paradigm for this. He talks about goal setting and he talks about when you set goals, there's what he calls the delusional zone, which is like, you know, it's a little bit, it's a little bit too implausible. And Then there's the discomfort zone. So the difference between the comfort zone, discomfort zone, and delusional zone. I think a lot of people when they dream rush to the delusional zone, they fail and they go back to comfort. I think success is really about kind of staying in that tension of this is a little bit uncomfortable, but I'm not being delusional. I love that.

That's perfect when it comes to looking at the zones because it feels if you're going to describe why people fail, that's exactly it. And I think it's good to have big, big goals and to dream big, but also to understand the tactical things that it'll take every single day, right? It's a daily grind. I think, I don't know, I was looking at like on Instagram, John Acuff, he'll post, I'm sure you know him around town, but he'll post pictures from like a random hotel room in a random city. And it's not like this glamorous life all the time. He goes, there are moments when it really is. And it's awesome. and you're on stage in front of thousands of people,

then there are other times where you're in this kind of a rundown, you know, not a great area of the country and a hotel that's not that nice. And your view is like construction workers outside. So it's like you got to be willing to have a little bit of both of those things and live that type of life to do extraordinary things. Yeah. And I would say that, you know,

it should be a little bit uncomfortable. But if you don't love it, then it's probably not what you should be doing. Like I know John. And yeah, I'm sure he'd, you know, love to be in the, you know, the penhouse. There'd be, there's part of him that would, you know, love that, of course. But I know him well enough to know that he kind of like loves that. He loves

the humility of it. He loves that it keeps his ego in check. And he loves that like, well, I don't have a great view. So what am I going to do? Well, I guess I'm going to write a blog post. And it forces him to get productive with his craft, which is the thing that he's supposed to be doing, not, you know, ordering ridiculous things on, you know, the room service menu or something. Yeah, exactly. So people, I got to. believe because of the work that you do and you wrote a book called The Art of Work, come to you and ask for advice. So what's the, if they're saying, hey, Jeff, I, you know, I'm not really sure, you know, what I want to do. I'm, I'm okay with what I'm currently doing.

Everything's fine. It's not bad at all. But I'm just not, you know, there's, I think I could, could leave a legacy or I can leave a mark and I, I'm not really sure how to do that. What's the, what type of advice do you give the people who come to you with questions like that? I think, you know, I think that answering the question, how do I find my calling is a big question, and you didn't ask that question to your credit. I think the best question you can ask anybody where you're trying to figure out, okay, like, I want to do this thing that I perceive that you've done. So how do I do that?

The best question to ask is, how do I start? And I think the best way to start, the best place to start with, you know, this tension is to first realize that you're not alone, that most people feel this way. The Gallup organization did a poll a few years ago where they found that 87% of the world's workers, this was a global study, 87% of the world who has a job, said that they were either dissatisfied with their jobs

or they were basically just checked out. They were disengaged from the work that they were doing. Wow. 13% were what they called engaged, which means you're focused, you're enjoying it. it's fulfilling. And so, you know, eight out of ten people, almost nine out of ten people are just kind of going to work and punching a clock, a metaphorical clock, because I don't know if they do that anymore.

But, yeah, so, you know, join the club and then realize that recognizing where you're at is really the first step. Beyond that, I think the best thing that you can do is do this thing that's, I mentioned Frederick Beechner earlier, that he calls listening to your life. life. And another guy, another author, an activist named Parker Palmer, borrows that phrase, and he says, before I can tell my life what I want to do with it, I need to listen to my life, telling me who I am. So when I was having conversation after conversation with friend after a friend where I was in that point where I realized, hey, my job is fine. I don't hate it, but it's

not everything that I ought to be doing. So now I have a choice. I can just sort of deal with it, as most people do. Or I can believe that there's something more. for me. And I say it with the caveat that probably, you know, nine out of ten people in the world don't need to quit their jobs necessarily, but they do need to find a way to have greater satisfaction and fulfillment in the work that they do or make some sort of pivot or transition. And I think the best way to know what that ought to be is to listen to your life. In other words, become self-aware. So when I was asking all my friends, hey, what do you see in me, you know, what do you think I should be doing? What do you see that I'm doing well?

And I was kind of going back over the past really 20 years of my life and going, what are the things that I have always done? Because I've done a lot of different things. I was an artist. I was an actor. I was a musician. I studied Spanish in college. I traveled a bunch.

I worked for a nonprofit. I was a marketer. I did all of these things that felt very disparate. But when I started listening to my life, listening to friends, family members, mentors, people who I trusted and I knew they knew me. And then I just kind of read some old journals and looked at things that I'd always loved doing. One central theme was I was certainly always creative, but a level deeper than that, I was always writing. It was always something that really was just a hobby, but it never left me.

And through that act of listening to my life, paying attention to the different themes and the story of my life, kind of rising above that melodrama of the moment, I started to gain a little bit of clarity and a little bit of direction and knew enough to take the, next step. I didn't know the whole, you know, path in front of me. I didn't have some sort of grand epiphany or, you know, enlightenment, but I knew enough to get started. And for me, that meant getting up the next morning, calling myself a writer and starting to write. Yeah, I think a great exercise. I've talked about this before, but maybe for new listeners is simply grabbing a sheet of paper. Yeah. On the left side, you put a line down the middle. On the left side of that piece of paper, you write everything that you love, that you're passionate about, things that you're just, you're truly love studying, you love learning about, you love doing. On the right side, you ask the people

who are closest to you, whoever that may be, you know, spouse, close friends, family, whoever. And all you say to them is, when you think of me, what areas do you look at me as an expert or what am I just really, really good at? And then we look at the list and we see are there, what intersects or what's on both sides of the sheet of the paper. And, you know, I know this is not a brand new exercise, but it's something I've picked up and I've done and part of why this podcast exists. But it's, it's, and looking at what's, you know, what, what matches up on both sides. And that's probably, uh, somewhat of an indicator of, of, of, of things that you should do or a way that you could move people, help others, uh, make a difference because, uh, you're, you're good at

it as, as others have told you, you know, you got to make sure you ask people who are going to be honest with you and you, and you, and you love it. Well, there you go. It's, it's, it's something you're passionate about and to others think you're good at it. So you should probably pursue that, that activity or whatever it may be in your endeavors. Hey, Jeff, I know we're running out of time here, but I have one more question for before we go that I want to ask. Please. But I wanted to get that quick exercise in just in case people who haven't heard it. I love that.

So this show, like I said, is all about the two topics that I love. And I, and that's leadership and that's learning, constant improvement, inspiring people. speaking with people who have inspiring stories so that we could learn from your journeys and help that, you know, positively affect our own, right? That's why it's called The Learning Leader Show. So when I say the phrase or the statement, learning leader, what does that mean to you? It means something that I learned from one of my college roommates who was a year older than me. So I was a junior. He was a senior.

And he was getting ready to graduate. And he was an incredible student. I mean, he just had this very rigorous discipline. He would go to bed at midnight every night, studying right up until midnight, and then he'd get up at 6 a.m. And he'd work out. He'd go swimming, start his day. And, you know, and he was this straight-a student, just this incredible guy. You know, he just had his life together.

He spoke German, had a couple of majors, was going to be a teacher. And, yeah, it was just, it was really impressive. And he was just always busy, always doing stuff, always running really high. hard. And I remember asking him, Andrew, what are you going to do now that school is over? Are you excited about not having to do? I mean, he was just always studying. He was always doing something. And I knew that it was wearing on him. I said, are you excited to, you know, not have to learn stuff anymore? And he said, he said, no, I'm not excited about that. And I was like, oh, okay, well, tell me about that. He said, he said, I'm, he says, I don't think my education is ending right now.

just changing. It's evolving. He said, what I am excited about doing is learning the things that I want to learn, reading the things that I want to read, continuing myself education, which I, which I intend to do for the rest of my life. And that just always impressed me. And I remember, I'm sure he learned that from his dad because his dad was a realtor, you know, well-known, successful businessman in town. and his dad years ago basically endeavored to read a biography of every American president. And he was up to like Nixon or something. I mean, he had gotten through so many of them. And it was just this thing that he wanted to do because he wanted to learn about kind of how the history of America had changed

and wanted to learn about the leader's lives that had influenced that. So when I think about that, I think a leader is somebody. who is actively engaged in their own, you know, continued education. So it's not about going to some class or signing up for graduate school. Those things are fine. I don't have any problem with that. But the leaders that I know and probably that you know, Ryan, who are changing things, have the humility to realize that there's always more to learn and also have that

rigorous discipline that my friend Andrew had where it's not about, oh, I'm going to do this for season, so that I can stop doing that and actually do what I want to do. rather they're taking that discipline and they're applying it in different fields. So, you know, reading different books or, you know, learning some new craft or something. But yeah, I mean, as my friend Dan Miller says, the day that I stopped learning and stop growing, dig a hole and push me in it because I'm dead. You know, as long as I'm alive, I need to be learning and growing. And I think the smartest, most successful people I know are those people who are continuing

to educate themselves. That's awesome, Jeff, man. That's so good. I really, really appreciate that. And I appreciate your time investing with us here because I got a lot out of this and jam-packed episode for us here at the Learning Leader Show. So thank you so much for being a part of it. Thank you, Ryan. Thanks for having me.

And thanks for the work that you do. It's important and I appreciate it. Awesome. And where could people go to read more about you? Go to my blog, Goinswriters.com. G-O-I-N-S-Writer.com. It's like coins, but with a G, or as I was told in middle school, groins without the R. Which now you won't be able to probably spell it right, but that's okay.

Go to Goinsrider.com, and you can find out more about me there, sign up for my free email newsletter and get some free stuff. Perfect. Well, again, thanks so much, Jeff. And I'm looking forward to reading everything else that you're writing both on your blog and future books. Cool. Thank you. Thanks, Jeff. Bye.

This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to Learningleadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on The Learning Leader Show.