The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 030: Keith Hawk – Being An Effective Business Leader Is A Lot Like Being A Great Dad

Starting point is 00:00:00 It's a recognition that that journey that you are on as a leader has no ending point. It is a recognition that I must constantly be enhancing my tools, my ammunition, the foundation of my leadership house that I am building by doing things day and day out to help me get better. And the instant that you say, I've got it, is the time to. step out, right? No one ever arrives as a fully completed leader. So to me, the learning leader goes right up until he doesn't have any more breath of continuing to develop and seek ways aggressively, assertively to improve himself as a leader, as a communicator, as a teammate, everything it takes to do something special in an organization.

Starting point is 00:00:56 Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. And welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. And a big happy Father's Day to all the dads listening to this episode on the day it's released. I got a great idea from a mentor of mine named Greg Meredith. And Greg told me, he said, hey, why don't you do a podcast with your dad for Father's Day? I think we'd all love it. And it's a great idea. And I'm glad Greg said that to

Starting point is 00:01:53 me. And so the featured leader tonight is my dad, Keith Hawke. I loved, loved, loved this episode. Something that I think will definitely do again. We got on a number of topics jam-packed episode. A couple of them are, what does it mean to be a consciously competent leader and the importance of that. Also, the importance of trust and being a great leader. And my dad dives deep into that aspect of leadership. And I love that part. Also, you know, we talk about both personal as well as professional success on the learning leader show here. My dad gets into the thought process and being a great dad. And literally the things you need to do on a day-to-day basis to ensure you're giving your children the best opportunity to be successful.

Starting point is 00:02:38 I obviously have lived that firsthand both growing up as well as on a day-to-day basis now, the leadership that him and my mom provided me. And it's really, really cool, though, to get this on tape and a podcast for everyone to hear. And his day work, though, he leads over 950 sales professionals and a business that does over $2 billion in revenue. It's incredible. He's also a best-selling author. Without further ado, it's my dad, Keith Hawk. All right, Pistol, you've been very full.

Starting point is 00:03:15 fortunate to spend a ton of time around extremely successful leaders in your lifetime throughout your career. I'm curious, what is one specific trait that all of those really, really successful dynamic leaders have in common? Big question, and I'm tempted to give more than one answer, but I will start with what I would call trust. They are absolutely trusted, and you develop faith in truly great leaders. And they can take you places you didn't think you wanted to go or could go, and you'll go there because of that trust. Do any people's specific names come to mind? Well, the one that I refer to often that I call my whole business career mentor is the guy that sold LexisNexis to the Supreme Court himself back in 1975, Mert McGill. He was a strong,

Starting point is 00:04:09 tough, John Wayne kind of guy that was one of my earliest and greatest leaders. Why did people trust them so much? Mert was, they used the phrase honest as the day is long, he would be honest, and it wasn't always pleasant honesty either. I mean, he could tell you exactly what he thought, the ultimate straight shooter, but you knew if you asked Mertr a question or if he gave a point of view, it was absolutely right down the middle of the truth. And that goes a long way when you get into tough times with people. So I think trust to me is by far number one in terms of great leader characteristics. So if you were then doing the inverse, because unfortunately you spent time around people who were not great leaders, would you say then the response there is that there are people that you just, you don't have any trust in? Or is there something else, too, in addition to that?

Starting point is 00:04:58 Well, people have to build trust. You don't get it automatically. It doesn't come with the title. And I think some of the other leadership characteristics kind of go along to build up trust. Like another one that I think of is, I want my leader to be confident. I mean, man, if it's man or woman, whoever it is, I want them to be out front with boldness saying, let's go. This is the direction we're going to take.

Starting point is 00:05:21 I know we can get there. I know you can do your part and instills that confidence that makes you want to follow the great leader. So I think that the confidence to lead, and then establishing a track record, by the way, builds the trust in that individual that is a truly great leader. What about the person who's he was 25 years old? They're probably in an entry level job and they're listening to this and they've they've loved some of the episodes and they're hearing you and they're saying well, you know, I don't, I haven't had the time to build up that trust yet. I want to be that though. I want to do what you've done. I want to have that type of career where I can lead thousands of people, give inspirational speeches, do all these great things. But I'm 25 and I'm so antsy. chomping out the bit to make that happen. I mean, what do you say to that person listening? Yeah. Yeah, well, and we all have been there, right? I would say you start by saying what is I

Starting point is 00:06:18 have to do or can do to be great in my current role, right? I can only live in the role that I'm in right now for the most part. So I would say a dedication to personal greatness, a dedication to being the best is how you develop that platform, that kind of pyramid of strength that lets you take keep taking steps forward. And it also, people are attracted to greatness. You're either promoted to management or you're asked to be a part of great projects, but all these things that kind of build your foundation that lets you get to that point where people want to see you in front of a group of a thousand or two thousand people. But they start by by a dedication to own, to your own personal greatness in the role that you occupy at the moment. It's almost like

Starting point is 00:07:02 in the mold of setting small, daily, actionable goals to be, to be consciously great at those things on a day-to-day basis. Yeah, I mean, somebody could say, I want to win a marathon. I want to run a marathon, well, but I haven't run yet, right? That might be the equivalent of the 25-year-old that's just entering the workforce. I've got to go out there and put in the miles, right? And I've got to do the strength building, the endurance building, the speed building, to get me into a position to go complete that marathon.

Starting point is 00:07:32 And then I'll complete another marathon. And the next thing, I know I'm a marathoner. So the same thing goes in business, right? you have to build your foundation and then build the house on top of it. So I meant to get to this. So before you are, I don't know if I even said this yet, so far the most requested guest for this podcast, which is a pretty cool thing that people have asked. And the coolest thing about this episode is that it's our Father's Day special.

Starting point is 00:08:00 So for me, getting to do a podcast with you on Father's Day, or at least to be released on Father's Day. I think people understand how podcasting works that we need a little lag time. But anyway, to have this Father's Day special is really, really cool. And I like to give you, you know, a little bit of time here at the beginning to, for the people listening who don't know you. Because actually, just check the stats. This podcast has listened to in over 57 countries around the world by thousands of people. So it's pretty neat how quickly it's grown that there are actually probably going to be maybe a handful of people who have not heard of you. But there are some others.

Starting point is 00:08:38 Highly like it. There's more than a handful. There are others that have sent emails, Facebook messages, and I love getting those notes. It's really cool. And also I have to give credit to Greg Meredith for the idea to do this for Father's Day. But anyway, I want to give you a little bit of time here to tell your mini story of how you've got to the place that you currently are and some things that happened along the way and what you're then currently striving for and working on right now. Okay. Well, first of all, thanks for that info on the...

Starting point is 00:09:07 on the request. I will do my best to live up to that. I'm a guy who went to college with the intention of being a disc jockey or a sportscaster. I don't know whether that's a humble or a high objective, but that was my intention. And while guys like you were out there studying economics and finance and marketing and all those things, you know, I was in a class with headphones on saying something like, out of the airport, it's 38 degrees. That was my kind of schooling at Ohio University. But I got out and I threw a sheer accident, AT&T, which was really building up at the time, and this was in the late 70s, AT&T was really building up because they were ceasing to be a monopoly and had to go compete. They were hiring several thousand young salespeople all at the time I was

Starting point is 00:09:52 coming out of college. And they called me and asked if I'd go through the interview process. I did. I somehow got the job. And I entered a profession that I never had seriously intended to enter the profession of selling. And through a variety of great training and great colleagues and mentors around me, I discovered I was kind of good at it, advanced in the organization. And then my greatest customer, a company called the Mead Corporation, asked if I would come join them. And they had a small company, a small division that we today call LexisNexis, that I went and joined.

Starting point is 00:10:27 And I started developing the opportunity to be out in front of people giving speeches and talks. and I discovered I was relatively good at it. And I think if you can speak on your feet, you get a disproportionate amount of credit in a business organization for being good. And because that was kind of a basic ability of mine, I was promoted fairly quickly through the ranks at LexisNexis. And since the 90s, I've been in a VP position in the business

Starting point is 00:10:55 and most of the time in sales leadership roles. And I've found it to be this amazing, profession that is as close to sports as you can get because it's an achievement profession. And I like to be inspired. I call myself an inspiration jockey, and I search for inspiration all over the place, but I most typically get it by watching great performers go out and do great things for their customers, for their company. And Lexus Nexus has given me this wonderful platform to be able to go around the country and speak to customers, speak to our own employees, occasionally do outside speaking activities, which is what I really love. Today, I'm the head of

Starting point is 00:11:35 sales of something we call North American Research Solutions within LexisNexis, and I have the distinct pleasure of leading about 960 salespeople right here as we speak Father's Day 2015. So I guess I'm a combination leader, salesman, public speaker. Those are the things that would be most notable. And on the personal side, obviously, a husband, than dad. And you also a published author of a book called Get Real Selling. What was the purpose behind wanting to get your thoughts on paper and then publish and sell? Yeah. I really had the idea, along with my co-author, a guy named Michael Boland, the idea of putting meaning into this term we'd used often called conscious competence. Said another way, I want to be able to enunciate to say

Starting point is 00:12:28 what is it that defines being, in the case of Get Real selling, an exceptional salesperson? What really is it? Don't just say try hard, work harder, make more calls. Be specific, give techniques. And so we developed essentially a book built around just a few core concepts. The most notable being, my success as a sales professional, can only follow the success of my customer. And if I live my job and in fact live my life under the heading of I'm in business of making other people succeed, then my success will certainly follow. We built the book around that principle and then we went in and developed a sense of what are the most common obstacles that a salesperson can expect to face.

Starting point is 00:13:14 And we developed very consciously competent techniques to deal with these inevitable obstacles. And thus was born get real selling, which I wrote entirely on an airplane. I had promised myself I wasn't going to cheat my company, so I would only write when I was flying. So the book was written over a period of about two years, all of the air. Which I read as a Microsoft Word document prior to publication, which is pretty cool to just be scrolling and reading what would eventually become a book that I know has done very, very well. Thank you. It's funny. I was just, I didn't mean to go here, but I was just having a conversation with that.

Starting point is 00:13:55 recently somebody who was looking to potentially sponsor this podcast. We were kind of going back and forth over the last few days. And I told him, I said, listen, you know, because you try to negotiate a higher rate, if I'm even going to go to this model where it monetizes. I said, listen, my success can only follow yours. So if people don't end up buying your product from listening to my podcast, then it's failed. So trust me, like, I have every intention of making sure that everybody, who listens once to then buy your product and I would never ever let somebody sponsor the show if

Starting point is 00:14:31 I didn't truly believe in what they were selling and something that I personally used myself. So it's interesting that it ties all the way back to the whole purpose of your book to me when speaking with, and I think they really enjoyed that. They appreciated that. Now, that doesn't mean it's going to get done, but it was a good moment in the conversation when it was focused on, listen, I fully understand how important it is that you're successful because I know I have no chance, none, if you're not successful. Absolutely, right? You build your, you build your customer's success around something we call the magic question. What are those few things for your customer, and in your case there, your potential sponsor, what are those few things that absolutely must go right for that sponsorship to be wildly successful? And that's a pretty good thing. It truly works to create win-win situations.

Starting point is 00:15:17 Right, exactly. A little bit of monetization of something I absolutely love doing and then hopefully a great ROI for that customer of mine in a great partnership because he's going to be long-term relationships, my hope. So I was, as I was preparing for this conversation, I was doing some research, and there's some really respected people who are quoted as saying really, really great things about you. And there's a guy who we both know, and a lot of people listening probably know, who's a global leader. His name is Tom Ogburn. And Tom, Tom, Tom has won on record, and he said, Keith is a very humble guy. He downplays his success a lot. He's a classic example of modeling the right behavior and always demonstrating a positive attitude, enthusiasm, and integrity. The people that work for him

Starting point is 00:16:09 would run through a wall for him that certainly doesn't happen for everybody. When you see a guy like Tom, a very respected leader, say those things about you. What type of, what are you thinking when you hear great quotes like that. Well, it feels good, right? That's a great feeling. It makes you have a sense that perhaps somewhere along the line you've done something right when somebody has respected as Tom Auburn says something like that. But it really gets at kind of the core way that I want to live.

Starting point is 00:16:40 And also acknowledges that I'd much rather have someone else say something positive about me than me being out there blurting my mouth about how great I am. So you're really never truly accomplishing anything if you're the one out there talking about it. It's truly only meaningful if others on their own arrive at a point and say, yeah, that guy's doing something right. So it's a wonderful feeling. But it's, again, back to building that foundation. And you've got to build it one brick at a time. And, you know, you try to put the bricks on faster from time to time.

Starting point is 00:17:15 But you still, that's kind of a culmination of, in my case, a lifetime of, I hope, good work. So obviously you've been a mentor for me, but you're also a mentor to a lot of people. Whenever somebody asked to meet with you, I know you have a habit of not saying no, and that even if you have to delay it to some time out, you'll meet with just about anybody who will ask. And what's the main thing younger, or they're not always younger, but people earlier in their career, what is the main thing they ask of you when, because I know you're a mentor to a ton of people and the follow-up to that is going to be what type of advice do you give to them?

Starting point is 00:17:53 Yeah. They typically say something along the lines of what are the things I need to be doing, right? So they'll say, what should I be reading? What kind of habits should I develop? What kind of skills should I work on? What kind of education should I focus on? And I, that's the stuff that's most common, Ryan. And to get at, you know, taking it to the next step, what I commonly say,

Starting point is 00:18:18 most often is start by being, becoming a phenomenal communicator. And I mean that both in terms of the written word and the spoken word. And so as you think about it in your work life, let alone your personal life, you're writing a lot, especially these days when we're writing on our own, on our phone and texting people, when we're sending email messages to colleagues or customers, when we're writing speeches, when we're writing letters. you need to be an excellent writer, business communicator in that fashion. And then if you really want to take it to a high level, you must, and I say must become an

Starting point is 00:18:58 exceptional speaker in front of a group. And I don't just mean the ability to give a speech. I mean the ability to listen, not just speak, but to listen, process, especially process challenges and be able to respond effectively, efficiently with good meaningful responses, answers. So being a good speaker is not just giving a speech. I think that's the easy part. Being a good speaker is you're in the moment live in an interactive situation and you can make sense of things under perhaps trying times. So to me it starts with being a great communicator and then builds from there. Yeah, I mean, I think we've both seen people who, that's how they've differentiated themselves from others in whatever career that they're doing. They can get up and they can give a

Starting point is 00:19:46 great talk. They write great text, great content. So thinking back to that, people, I think, and I've said this before, and you've probably heard me say it, they do a fantastic job for the most part, at least the people were around, of going to training events, seminars, Things where great speakers are going to share knowledge. And we take notes and we got notebooks full of great, great content. So then we get back to our desk or our office and we're working to implement and execute what is said or what we just learned and we fail. For the most part, people are just not good at this.

Starting point is 00:20:31 And I am curious, if you have an actionable takeaway for the people listening and for me really too for for that type of setup when we go to a training we listen to maybe you give a speech and we're like I'm jacked up I'm ready to go I got my notes I'm going to do this and then two days later we're not really excited anymore and we don't do anything so what are some actual steps people can take to implement and then execute on what they learn yeah yeah well first of all to get at the cause of that human beings get caught up in what I call the crush of stuff meaning I might have the best intentions when I come back from a conference or a great speech or something like that. I would just want to consume everything I learned and go out there and change my

Starting point is 00:21:12 actions. But then I get back to work and I got 300 emails and I've got 11 messages on my phone and I dive in and I start problem solving and I'm back to doing my job. And all that stuff just dribbles away. So to me, a specific thing that I have done for decades, sometimes to better, effect in others, but I think it's a great habit, and it's a habit that is hundreds of years old. George Washington did it. Abraham Lincoln did it. And what it simply is is daily journaling, finding a nice, quiet place, whether you're traveling or you're home, early in the morning, to sit down with some sort of a notebook in your

Starting point is 00:21:51 pencil or pen, and just write down the things that are important to you, things that are happening to you. And in this case, if you're talking about going to a great conference where you heard some some really good stuff, write down the key points and develop a bit of an action plan to say, here's what I'm going to do to make sure I distill down some of these great things I just learned and put them into action. And so if you don't develop an action plan, if you just kind of take some notes, the notes you won't even look at them again.

Starting point is 00:22:20 So to me, it's all about building a plan and holding yourself to that plan. And in fact, reviewing on a daily basis, you know, here's what's going on in my life. I must prioritize what's important. And it's not, I can't just do the crush of stuff things. I've also got to make time for the elements that are most important to me. So to me it's kind of around put it in writing and build an action plan and put some targets on yourself of the things you're going to do to make it happen. And setting small goals and then achieving them to create some momentum.

Starting point is 00:22:53 It feels like that's what you mean by, you know, writing it down so that we can follow. And then you've got to follow up every day to make sure you're doing it. Everything goes back to that foundation I've talking about building where you have a nice, solid, broad foundation you build, and then you start going up. You start building up from the solid foundation. But you've got to get your core skill set, your knowledge, your experiences behind you, you know, to make you firm. And then you can start going upward. So I think people can already tell, like, you know, 15, 20 minutes in that you have a very positive outlook, a positive psychology towards life in general. I obviously know that and others who know you know that.

Starting point is 00:23:28 but what do you say to the people that view that positive psychology are you kind of sharing this optimism with everybody what do you say to the people who kind of view that saying like oh come on man get get real so to speak to use one of your terms get real like life is hard there's a lot going on I have a family a mortgage all these things I don't make as much money as you like what do you say to those types of people who could potentially be listening yeah well I say this there's there's There's very few things in our life that we can actually control. I mean, if you think about it, I can't control the weather. I can't really control a lot of things that happen around me in my business.

Starting point is 00:24:04 But the one thing that I know I have control over is how I react to the world, said another way my attitude. And many, many years ago, wise mentor said to me, it is the duty of the leader to be in a good mood. And I don't mean fake it. I mean absolutely you must be in a positive frame of mind because if the leader is downtrodden, is depressed, is negative, then everybody else that follows will pick up on that and feel terrible. And so I honestly have taken it seriously for a very, very long time that says,

Starting point is 00:24:41 I understand people are paying attention to me from time to time, probably more often than I even realize it. And I know that even if I'm not aware of it, I want to make sure. that I am absolutely leaning forward, being positive, saying no matter what we face, we're going to find a way over it, around it, through it. But nothing, there is no problem we're going to encounter that we're not going to find a way to deal with. And so to me, that's about being an accountable leader. That's about being certainly a leader that recognizes the importance of people to follow you. They have to have faith that you're positive, that things can work out well. So to me, it's an absolute duty. And by the way, not just for a leader of a business,

Starting point is 00:25:27 leader and a family as well. Yeah, I'm glad you went there because I wanted to touch on that. Like I said, this is a Father's Day talk and it's not all about business and leadership. That's part of it. But also, a lot of people listening are either leading a family or they're about to. And it's an interesting topic to talk about. So obviously you raised three boys. I'm one of them and all who have then gone on to lead successful families of their own, which I think as a parent is probably one of the main goals you hope your kids grow up to be successful and lead and have families of their own to where you can tell that they're leading by example and doing the right things just as you and mom did.

Starting point is 00:26:11 What, I mean, what conscious decisions or specifics, kind of a tough question maybe, around leadership from a family perspective, because especially when you were getting starting your career, it's a little bit different where the dads almost just like, you know, they just worked, right? Or they weren't, and I know that's not how you were, but they were more along the lines like, hey, let me go make the money. The wife will take care of the kids and I'll, you know, hopefully can provide a decent home and some food.

Starting point is 00:26:40 And that wasn't really your mindset. However, it was a mindset to provide, but also do the. dad parts as well. So what I'm curious about that aspect of your thought process. Yeah, thank you for that. What an opportunity. I would tell you that the most important thing to me is to show up, is to be present. Despite the fact that I've had jobs through the years where I had a lot of travel, I was blessed with the good fortune that I could control things. I could work the schedule so that If I needed to see a customer in a particular place, I could make it, you know, on Tuesday at two and still be back to see that baseball game, you know, Wednesday night at six. And that, to me, is really important.

Starting point is 00:27:27 And the other side of it is I didn't make a habit of when I came home at night to sit down in an easy chair and crack open a beer and watch TV for three hours. That's not how I lived my personal life. Rather, to me, it was, what are these three boys doing? What do they want to do? and if it meant we're going to go out to the batting cages at 11 o'clock at night and try to hit curveballs, we're going to do that or stand under the basketball goal and catch free throws and tossing back. We're going to do that. And I've even heard AJ, and when he's been interviewed, saying, you know, what did your dad do right?

Starting point is 00:27:58 And one time he said, always there. He was always there. And so that to me is at the core of being a good parent. And that is I'm available. I'm in the moment and right there present and not some distant guy that is unreachable. And by the way, you know, you have plenty of time to sit in front of a TV and do whatever you do later in life when your kids are out raising their kids. But when they're around, you better be around. So I really boil it down to that.

Starting point is 00:28:31 Showing up is almost everything. I think that's then that's obviously been passed on to us because you see we've tried to do. the same things, whether it's not miss a practice, if possible, coach the basketball team, do things that your children want you to be a part of. And it's nice to hear, you know, when Ellis says, I, you know, I really, really want you to coach my basketball team. Obviously, that's a good feeling, and it means that they want you to help lead and inspire others along with them, even if it is only in the first grade. So I think that's a big deal that not everybody, you can really distill that down, and it's very simple, but it's a, it's,

Starting point is 00:29:09 meaningful and it's surprising how many people though don't they don't get that yeah you know what it is and i i remember uh it's not just your own kids by the way that you get the opportunity to learn about and be an influence and and get to know better i i think back to it to a very distressing time we had recently when we um the bingles former ohio state and cinderella elk but the bingles kicker mike Nugent's dad tragically passed away and I went to his viewing and I'm speaking with Mike up there at the front and he said, you know what? He said he coached your kids and you coached his kids and you have no idea what that means and, you know, that stays with you too. So it's great to coach your own children. But to be around, you know, their friends, honestly, you build a network of friendships

Starting point is 00:29:59 through your life and a lot of them are at work and most of the rest of them are through your kids because you meet their friends and their friends' parents. So yeah, I think that that kind of engagement really means a lot to you. Yeah, that was a, that was just a one of the most brutal days I can, I can remember in my life was, you know, meeting with that day of Mike's dad's viewing. It was just, God, it was so tough talking to him. I still remember the conversation we had that day. And it's like it really does even lasting impact on you because he was, I think like, what my second or third grade baseball coach and just really, really tough. So I wanted to, I meant to talk about this earlier, but we, the people locally here know about your nickname,

Starting point is 00:30:44 but people globally don't probably, and we call you Pistol. And so I'll tell the story just because it's probably a little bit easier for me and we were living it. But for the people who haven't heard why, I mean, his name is Keith Hawk, but we call them Pistol we have for what, how old were we? Was that like? Probably about fourth and sixth grade. Sixth grade. I was in six grade. It was in fourth grade. And we, you bought us the, they were probably videotapes, not DVDs, videotapes of Pistol Pete Marevich, who still, I love watching every single thing we could get. And then, and so we'd watch them in the people who don't know Pistol Pete for the younger

Starting point is 00:31:19 millennials listening, just incredible ball handler, incredible score. Steph Curry actually kind of does some of the stuff that Pistol Pete does. He reminds me a little bit of them. But anyway, so then we would watch the videos and then we'd go on the driveway. way. We had a great basketball, a great driveway. We'd go on the driveway and you would try to emulate him as we did. And I think it was more in a joking manner to say, you know, like, you know, it's weird that your children have far more athletic ability than you. And that's just a fact. It is a fact. But it means that you marry the right person, had children right

Starting point is 00:31:56 person. So that's actually a compliment. But it is a fact. But to see you try. to emulate Pistol Pete Marevich, I have no idea why it stuck, but it definitely did. Well, the reality is then all of my kids' friends, both in the past and in the present, called me by that term, Pistol, and I suspect many didn't even know my real name, and it goes into adulthood for many, and to the point now where I have two Green Bay Packer jerseys hanging on my wall in frames, one is from Brett Favre, and the other is from Aaron and Rogers, and both of them say, to Pistol. And they signed their names.

Starting point is 00:32:36 It's great. It's good. It's kind of like just what you're known by with everybody. Sometimes I even see guys in like Lake Tahoe when we go out there for a celebrity tournament and some random guy, you know, who play and he goes, oh, hey, how's Pistol doing? I'm like, wow, this is cool. How far this reaches like all over the place. I actually have a painting of Pistol Pete Marevich right here in my office at this moment.

Starting point is 00:32:56 I'm looking at. It's great. No, so I want to dig in a little bit to a changing gear. to there's a few people that I speak with who I think it's it you feel like when you're talking to them John Lowry is another one of these guys but you feel like when you're talking to them you see them give speeches you've seen their written words and how they are in their everyday life and you're like wow like this guy must never have a negative thought he must never have self-doubt when so many people do and so they almost can view it as being a little bit envious

Starting point is 00:33:30 saying like, wow, I wish I didn't have that. And I found, though, as you dig in to most very successful people like you, that that just, it's not true. They actually do. And so I'm curious to dig in a little bit about a topic that sometimes is tough for people to talk about. But it's really interesting, I think, to talk about those few things. How do you deal with?

Starting point is 00:33:54 And first of all, I don't know if I should ask how you deal with it, but do you have moments where you have self-doubt or negative self-talk? Well, in business, I mean, clearly there are moments, more than moments of doubt, whether they be self-doubt or doubt in the project, and you have to fight your way through them and develop strategies around how are we going to turn the doubtful situation into something that's strong. Of course, there's that kind of doubt. Now, if you're speaking about when you're walking up on stage and you're going to give a speech to a bunch of people. I mean, I am absolutely opposed to the whole concept of doubt. In those moments, you've had typically the opportunity

Starting point is 00:34:38 to prepare anyway, so you can kind of work some of the doubt out. But I've been in some pretty tough situations giving talks on topics that were not particularly comfortable, but you have to get into the frame of mind to say, these people expect so much of me. I feel such a responsibility to them that I'm going to do everything I humanly can do to assure them that there is a path that we're going to walk that's going to get us to a better place. Here's what your role is. Here's what my role is. Let's get together on this mission and let's go.

Starting point is 00:35:10 Right. So to me, it's always a requirement to be enthusiastic, to absolutely be certain, and to lead with vigor. And so I think that that gives you so much better chance. And by the way, there's another thing, too, when you get up in front of a group, there's an excitement, right? You either are stimulated by the adrenaline or paralyzed by it. And I've been fortunate enough most of the time to be stimulated by it.

Starting point is 00:35:39 But I will tell you, Ryan, before I get up in like a big national meeting or something where there's a couple thousand people in the group and I'm back behind a curtain, I got my head down doing the prayer thing in a meaningful way. as I get ready. But typically what I'm saying quietly there to myself or in more of a prayer mode is give me strength, give me clarity, give me the opportunity to accomplish what I'm here to accomplish. I owe it to them. And so to me, it's really all about a responsibility to your audience. And as long as you feel that intense responsibility to those that you're there to serve, you have a great chance to do a good job. Once you lose that, you better stop going out on that stage.

Starting point is 00:36:25 Are you nervous? It's a creative kind of nervousness. I have learned through the years not to be paralyzed by it, but, I mean, there's no getting around it, even though you hear a buzz of a bunch of people out on the other side of a curtain, and you have these kind of butterfly feelings. But I have learned to really enjoy that because it's such an exciting thing. As you indicated earlier, my athletic ability was. not particularly top-notch. And so to me, my substitute for going out on a field in front of thousands

Starting point is 00:36:58 of people, my substitutes to get out on a stage and to discover, I can do that. And so it's extremely exciting to me. I look for the opportunity. I mean, I have this saying, don't say no if you can say yes. And so whether I'm going to go speak to several thousand people at a big meeting, or I'm going to talk to the local chapter of the Dayton Women's Connected group, I'll, I see. I, I see. say yes every single time as long as I can make it work in my schedule because I'm thirsty for the opportunity to get in front of a group and share ideas. I think I think I've obviously done that on a much smaller scale but to me some of those feelings you hinted at this replicate the feeling of being in a locker room before a game. It's not a I don't know if it's a

Starting point is 00:37:44 nerve nerve thing it's this kind of this anticipation of just getting it started. It's like once I get the game started for me was like once I get those first few drives you've heard other quarterbacks say I kind of want to get hit or I just want to go out there and get the get the first hit out of the way the first couple of plays out of the way and sometimes they're great plays and it's awesome when like the first drive you go right down the field and score because it's like that's when I'm at my most nervous because I have all this anticipation building up there might be a lot of media hype the games on national TV you're thinking about all these things and then boom you get out there and it's like I'm so glad I got that first drive done it's probably the same way as speaking in front of

Starting point is 00:38:21 of, you know, 2,000 people who was saying, all right, my intro went great. They kind of laughed at the first joke. You know, I'm good to go. And then you kind of settle in, I would imagine. Yeah, you want to get a reaction. And at least in my experience, when you get that first reaction, and hopefully it's a positive reaction of some sort, but you want the audience to react. And that gives you a lot of a thrill.

Starting point is 00:38:41 And I used to play this game with myself, and I still kind of play it. We have a mutual friend we know named Dennis McPyke, who is helping me with a particular speech at a national meeting. There were a couple thousand people there. And the night before I was going to give this big speech, I called Dennis on the phone and I said, hey, Dennis, man, this is no good. This is not going to work. I don't know the material well enough. I don't see any way we can make this happen. You're going to have to put the whole thing on teleprompter. And by the way, I hate teleprompters. But I said, you're going to put the whole thing on teleprompter. You're going to have to do that. And he felt kind of bad about that because he knows that's not the way I like

Starting point is 00:39:17 of speech. Well, that night, I went back to the prayer thing a little bit, and then I just studied hard and just started trying to visualize what I was going to do the next day. And the next morning early, I called Dennis on the phone, and I said, stay home, no teleprompter. I don't even want to turn on and give me the clicker so I can move the slides myself. I don't want anybody else involved but me. And I got up there with no notes, no teleprompter, and gave about a 50-minute speech. And I think I remembered. every single detail. And in fact, I was feeling so good about it as we went through. I started putting in even extra little tiny details just to show off for Dennis who had worked so hard on

Starting point is 00:39:57 these remarks that he was helping me prepare. So to me, it's the thrill of delivery with an audience that's engaged. It's tough to beat that in a business sense. Oh, yeah. No, absolutely. So was there kind of reflecting now on specific moments in your life? Can you think of one specific time in your life to where you thought to yourself, wow, like I've really, I've really accomplished something. I've really done something because we're always going to be in this journey of always thinking there's something bigger, there's something better, I need to strive for that. And I think that's okay.

Starting point is 00:40:36 But is there a moment in your life you can think of to where you really, really feel proud and felt like I really have made something happen, whether it be personal or professional, obviously the birth of kids and marriage and stuff, but outside of that type of thing where you felt very, very proud of what you accomplished. Well, and of course you have to separate business from personal. So let's start with business. There have been very few times once I stopped being an individual contributor salesperson. There have been very few times that I've actually felt like, wow, I really did something. And I think that's part of being a great leader, and I'm not saying I am, but I'm saying part of something a great leader should strive for is,

Starting point is 00:41:16 is it's about that team, right? It's about the immediate leaders below you. It's about the individuals below them. Everybody coming together to build something great. And we've certainly had moments from a business standpoint where we had some spectacular successes of accomplishment. I tell you, I don't remember like individual like sales years, you know, a particular big year, something like that in the same way as I remember more moments. To me, it's more. more about celebratory moments. And I'll give you an example. I don't know if this is the greatest thing, but it's an example of a moment, right? So there's a big offensive lineman that played, he actually played with you at Ohio University, and he came up on stage after being honored

Starting point is 00:42:03 as a tremendous salesperson at Lexus Nexas, named Dave Shelby, actually, I'll say his name. And he came up on stage after we had recognized him as like being this mega top performer in front of a couple thousand people, and he lifted me up in the air, and he said, Pistol, this is bigger than playing in any bowl game. And it's really struck me. I'm like, wow, what we're involved in really is significant that somebody that's had these amazing life experiences outside of business that said, this thing we're doing right here in business is bigger than all of those things, which stunned me.

Starting point is 00:42:38 So I'm an inspiration, Junkie Ryan. I seek inspiration. That's what keeps me going. I'm always looking for things that inspire me. And that's an example of what I'm looking for. Those kind of moments mean the most to me. And I have a picture of that, actually, that he shared later on. I talked to Dave about that moment, too.

Starting point is 00:42:59 And we together played at Ohio University and we went to University of Kentucky. And we went down there. The game was on national TV. I think AJ was playing that night as well, which you probably were. I remember. You were at his game, I think. That was correct. That was the night I discovered text messaging.

Starting point is 00:43:19 Yeah, yeah. So we were playing and we were both on national TV at the same time. They actually showed, I remember they showed clips of our game during his game, all that. And we went down there and I remember those guys were trying to, they're beating us up at the very beginning of the game. And these guys are saying like you cannot hang in the SEC, all that garbage. And we went out and beat those guys. I remember throwing a touchdown pass. I remember a fourth and goal from like the six.

Starting point is 00:43:44 and scoring and all these great, great moments. And I talked to Dave after he had won the Circle of Excellence Award and the rep of the year and all these great things that you're talking about. And he told me, and he goes, maybe this is because it just happened. But literally, it was more enjoyable than beating Kentucky in front of 65,000 fans who were booing them at the end of the game after we took them out. And I'm like, that is powerful. I mean, that's crazy.

Starting point is 00:44:09 And that's why, like, you know, I try to tell people the importance of doing moments like that at any type of if you if you work in a company environment of having those types of moments where you can bring people up in stage on stage in front of their peers is very very powerful and it's a both a motivator and it inspires others who aren't there to get there and i don't know if if any there's any people in leadership who are more numbers driven and don't really look at the narratives and the culture of things you could really really really miss out on the importance of those types of events, which has kept a top, top performer extremely satisfied and happy. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you remind me of that. I think about an old sales manager I had named Lou Petrophis,

Starting point is 00:44:57 and Lou didn't know that much about our products, and he didn't really even understand a whole lot about how we did our jobs, but I still called him a great manager because he recognized what fed people's emotions, what fed their reservoir to go out and do good things. And I remember Lou would come and get. And I remember Lou would come and me and take me to product trade shows, industry trade shows, and take me around and introduce me as, this is the guy that sold more Centrex 2s than anybody in Ohio last year. This is Keith on, he sold more systems. And all he was really doing was like patting me on the back in front of these other people, giving me recognition. And it stuck with me from all the time since, that says, when you have an opportunity to point at somebody and say, look at what they did,

Starting point is 00:45:42 by all means as a leader do it because back to your earlier question as a leader you don't really accomplish hardly anything yourself maybe some good decisions every once in a while but the work gets done by by masses of other people so that's that's really the stuff I see because what are those moments when people are in such a celebratory mode that they're they're so satisfied and that kind of washes over them with with how great they've they've been but the leader is so vital important because if they're not making those decisions and having that thought process of what can I do to help my people or do whatever I can to make sure they're successful, if they don't have that mindset, then those accomplishments never happen. So in a way, you are in charge of

Starting point is 00:46:31 that. You are accomplishing something because if you don't do it, then you know what's going to happen. It's failure and it's getting fired and it's the business not being successful. Yep. There's a lot of accountability and responsibility that goes with leadership, so I don't never mean to downplay it. Just describe our job is really, just as it is in sports as a coach, our job is really to put people into a position to be successful, armoring them with tools, with training, with guidance, with information that lets them go out and be spectacular. You don't just yell at people and say, hey, go be great. Your job as a leader's to put them in a position to be great.

Starting point is 00:47:11 And then they will be. Are there famous leaders that, like, who are the ones that you are currently studying, reading about, maybe they're writers as well, or maybe their leaders and other people write about them? Who are those people that you study? Well, it evolves through time. I mean, back in the old days, you know, I really paid attention to great leaders who were also great orators because I kind of had that, I wanted to have that kind of thing.

Starting point is 00:47:37 I wanted to be a great leader, but I also wanted to be a great orator or speaker. I paid great attention to Churchill back from the days of World War II, and he was such a key figure to Europe, especially the United Kingdom. Martin Luther King, a powerful combination of a mission and the ability to deliver information well. But more recently, I've paid attention to a couple of other things. trust is a big topic to me. It is a core part of the DNA of a great leader to be trusted, to inspire trust. And so I read a book called The Speed of Trust. And it was actually written by Stephen Covey's son. And he's out delivering seminars and speeches on that topic right now.

Starting point is 00:48:26 And I think everything goes faster when there's trust. And when there's not trust, everything goes agonizingly slower because with trust, things can proceed along at light speed. You don't need to check a lot. You don't need to check the data. You don't need to check to see if this person's right. If you trust, you can just move. The opposite of that is endless meetings to check and check and check and grinds things down, slows things down. So the speed of trust to me is a really true concept that young Covey has expressed. The other thing I'm paying some attention to is a guy that's really good public speaker. He has a great message, and he has a book that he wrote called Start With Why. Simon Sinek, yeah. Yeah, yeah, pretty much in-demand public speaker these days.

Starting point is 00:49:14 I've emailed him like 50 times. The core of his message is, why are we doing what we're doing? Don't just think about building the product, doing the marketing. Those are just a bunch of activities. Think about what are we trying to accomplish. And I think the reason people talk about, about Apple and Steve Jobs so much is they didn't start with the product in mind. They started with what people need. Why might they do business with my company? And from that simple inspiration of trying to seek, you know, how people are living their lives and what they need in their lives, he came up with the original idea of iTunes and the ability to reward the musician, the ability to get your music in another way, that he then turned into a listening device called an iPod,

Starting point is 00:50:07 that he then evolved into the most popular phone ever sold. And so it goes on and on. And he completely revitalized a company built around the core principle of starting with why, not with what. So those are some of the things and some of the people that I've paid attention to, both in the past with Churchill, Martin Luther King, and more recently, the speed of trust, and starting with why with Covey and Cynic. Yeah, I love Simon Cynic stuff. He's great.

Starting point is 00:50:35 That's why, but he's obviously pretty busy. Maybe he doesn't have time to a podcast. He might be about a $30,000 fee for his podcast. I don't pay. So this is a free one. People ask you, they have to pay for these guys. No, I would never do that. So two more questions, actually.

Starting point is 00:50:51 So there are two different questions, but they are related because this is a podcast about learning and leadership. So there are, for this first ones from a parental perspective, and leadership. Nowadays, you look around and a lot of parents want their children to get some type of scholarship, and a lot of them seem to lean towards the athletic scholarship. They will pay huge sums of money to get personal coaches at times specializing in sports as young as six years old. You know, obviously I'd completely disagree with that. Doing all these types of things because they want, you know, they want to have sons or daughters who, I don't know, maybe they just

Starting point is 00:51:31 want to pay for college, but they want them to get a college scholarship. And so people, I know ask you about that because, you know, AJ and I both were able to go to college and get a full scholarship for our entire careers. And so they come to you and ask you, what are things that you tell parents who have that desire? Because a lot of the parents who even have very, very young kids and they're, you know, they're getting them into sports and things like that. So what is some of the advice you give to them?

Starting point is 00:51:58 Well, first I try to lighten the mood a little bit because they have such intensity around, what can I do to put my kid in the position to be successful to get a scholarship, to go to the pros, you know, after the kids have done. And I'll lighten the mood by saying, well, first of all, I hope you married well, because that's what I did that's probably most important is I married someone much more athletic than myself. And in fact, there's some fact of that in our family. Absolutely. A bunch of my wife, your mom's cousins, played college basketball, and a couple of them played in the NBA.

Starting point is 00:52:27 I mean, there really is something to that. But in fact, I went to a high school reunion, Ryan, and I'm with a bunch of my teammates from high school. And I was a marginal athlete. And they say, of all of us, you got two college football players and an NFL player? How did that happen? And I said, I married better than you guys. Anyway, their wives love that. But what I really then go to is to say, look.

Starting point is 00:52:52 your job as a parent is so much simplified if your kid has something that they're truly passionate about. And so your job as a parent is to open doors for them to find what that passion is. Now, though you might want them to be a football player or basketball player or soccer star, they may or may not want that. And you'll discover that because like most of us, as parents, we take our kids and we enroll them in their sports and they go out and they play. And you'll see, do they have an inclination?

Starting point is 00:53:28 Are they pretty good? Are they pretty aggressive? Do they have good hand-eye coordination? And you'll have a sense of, do they have the basics, right? And if they have the basics, then your job is to continue opening doors for them. And in my view, that is getting them into ever higher levels of competition. Because in our lives, whether it's sports or otherwise, if you want to truly go to the top and get better, you don't get better by competing against people that are at your level or worse.

Starting point is 00:53:57 You only get better by competing against people that are above your level. And so to me, you guys were typically in your younger days, at least until you got into high school, and you couldn't do that as much, you were competing up, playing up with older kids at higher levels of competition. So that's a lot of my advice. I think they want to think, hey, there's this personal coach or this private coach that's going to get their technique better. And maybe there's something to that to a degree, but to me, there's no substitute for actually being out there and competing. So I actually would, instead of advising for someone to drill year-round on one particular sport, I am a fan of exposure kids to constant competition, meaning go play baseball, go play basketball, go play football, go run track, go swim.

Starting point is 00:54:45 But compete almost every day. And that truly is the way to develop an athlete, to me, not just. just drilling. Does that get at what you're thinking about, Ryan? Well, yeah, obviously, you know, I think AJ and I both gone on record of saying that, you know, the competition part of it of playing all the sports has made us. I think some guys are surprised, you know, AJ's still playing, so they're surprised when they see how good he is at other sports, you know, whether it be, like, playing point guard when you play basketball, like people don't expect that or being able to hit home run. I was very, very lucky to be able to go with him to play.

Starting point is 00:55:22 to take batting practice at the Milwaukee Brewers when they just still with the Packers. And, you know, he's hitting home runs, multiple home runs during batting practice. You know, we're crushing balls on there. And these guys who are, you know, playing, you know, we're in groups with guys who are getting ready to play the game. And they're like, what?

Starting point is 00:55:39 Because they said, I said, well, do other guys come out there? So yeah, Brett Farr have actually came out here. I said, how was he? You know, and this was earlier in AJ's career. And they said he came out here saying he was about to hit, you know, a home run on every pitch. And I'm like, well, how did he do? they're like he hit like two out of the infield.

Starting point is 00:55:54 So but my point is like, you know, people are surprised, but I think it's part of being an athlete first and having a love to compete and trying to win and getting pure, you know, joy out of that and getting joy out of the thought of competing. And you don't do that when you're when you're practicing or you're just working on a school. The practice is so important and you need those 10,000 hours. However, I think it's in the world of competition. And that also leaves the so much success.

Starting point is 00:56:22 in whatever it is after you're done. You know, whether it's you're taking that work ethic into the business world or for me personally with this podcast, it's taking that exact same work ethic I had preparing for a game and preparing like that for each and every episode. So the guest knows they feel respected, they enjoy it, they know I'm prepared. It's not going to be scripted, but however, I am going to be ready. And so they understand that, and that's what I think is separated from some others that, some other people that are doing it.

Starting point is 00:56:52 And that's why I trace all that back to starting from athletics and playing and going through adversity and having to fight through it, you know. I'm a big believer. And even to my hiring model, though we're not completely like this, I am a big fan of hiring athletes and soldiers. And my reason is athletes are used to competition. And in my business, it's all about competing because we wouldn't exist as a selling organization without the competitor, right?

Starting point is 00:57:20 We're there to compete. And I occasionally have people say, oh, I don't like it when we are in these competitions. I'm like, that's why we exist, right? So athletes are used to competing. They're also used to taking coaching, right? They're also used to practicing, to drilling. You know, I'd go stand and watch AJ in training camp. I still do it every summer, and they will spend literally half an hour working on tiny little

Starting point is 00:57:44 individual movements that all orchestrated together lead. to a play. But athletes are used to the reality that I must practice and work to improve. And they're used to taking both positive and negative feedback. There's so many things that athletes and soldiers have experienced. And certainly they're used to working as a team. And so all these wonderful things come together in a great package that make people very attractive for business. So, you know, a real great benefit, whether you're a soldier or an athlete is you're really preparing yourself for a great business life. That reminds me of my college life and the amount of detail that we talked about as the leader

Starting point is 00:58:25 of the team as the quarterback. We would spend hours upon hours of our walk into the huddle. Seriously, think about that small detail. How do you look as you're walking up to the other 10 guys who all eyes are on you as you're about to call the play? Because our coach realized how important it was that you looked and you presented yourself as the leader. We spend hours on how our feet looked while our hands were under center. Are you pigeon-toed enough because those guys seem to look more athletic and people are going

Starting point is 00:58:55 to follow you because they view you as being more confident? I mean, tiny, tiny little details that have bled over into my, you know, professional life because it's been drilled in me that these little things are so important, especially in the field of leadership, that I understood in all of that stems back to athletics. I know not everybody is, fortunate enough to have the, you know, just the God-given ability to be able to play sports. But there's, there's, I think there's so many learnings from it. Even to the guys, even like the equipment guys, you know, I would sit in the back room with him.

Starting point is 00:59:27 It's funny talking about this now with Tom Brady's thing and rub down, you know, with brushes to footballs for hours before games. And we would just talk leadership football. We joke around. But I think even if you can't play just being a part of it in some way, shape, or form, you'll be better off for it. I completely agree. So I have one more question to end us off.

Starting point is 00:59:47 So you know, you've listened to podcasts and you know what it's all about. And my passions come from the art and science of leadership, learning from the journeys of other great leaders who've come before me and sharing that with as many people so we can learn to be better leaders and be inspired along the way. So when you think of the phrase learning leader, what is your definition of that? It's a recognition that that journey that you are on as a leader has no ending point. It is a recognition that I must constantly be enhancing my tools, my ammunition, the foundation of my leadership house that I am building by doing things day and day out to help me get better. and the instant that you say, I've got it, is the time to step out, right?

Starting point is 01:00:46 No one ever arrives as a fully completed leader. So to me, the learning leader goes right up until he doesn't have any more breath of continuing to develop and seek ways aggressively, assertively, to improve himself as a leader, as a communicator, as a teammate, everything it takes to do something special in an organization. Boom, perfect. Well, on this Father's Day, thank you, obviously, for being such a great learning leader and for being a part of this podcast. Like I said, it was so many people had asked me, both in person and electronically, so I'm happy we're able to do it. And I'd love to hear the

Starting point is 01:01:29 feedback from those same people now that we're able to get it on tape. And maybe we'll, maybe we'll do it again, too. Thank you, Ryan. It was clearly my pleasure. And hey, man, I wish you happy Father's Day as well. Thank you. All right. Talk soon. Okay. Bye.

Starting point is 01:01:44 This episode of the Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to Learning Leadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on the Learning Leader Show.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 030: Keith Hawk – Being An Effective Business Leader Is A Lot Like Being A Great Dad

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