The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 034: Jimmy Hatch – Shot While Searching For Bowe Bergdahl And Sky Diving With Gabby Giffords

Episode Date: July 6, 2015

Episode 034: Jimmy Hatch – Wounded While Searching For Bowe Bergdahl And Sky Diving With Gabby Giffords I am honored to know Jimmy Hatch.  He truly is an American Hero.  He was wounded while on a search mission for Bowe Bergdahl (the US Soldier who has since been charged with desertion).  This episode was incredible.  To hear the real life stories and the danger that Jimmy has been in to serve our great country is incredibly inspiring.  In July 2009, Jimmy Hatch’s team - part of the Navy's Special Warfare Development Group - was on a search mission in eastern Afghanistan. The warriors landed in the dark and were hit with gunfire and rocket-propelled grenades as they made their way across a field. Jimmy was an old hand at this kind of mission. He'd become a SEAL in 1990 and joined his elite unit in 1994, back when there was no war. After six years, he left the unit to teach parachuting. When war broke out, he pushed hard to get back to Virginia Beach. That was in 2004. Now, five years later, Jimmy was a senior chief, a leader of expert commandos, strong and alert and brimming with confidence. He was one of the toughest guys in the world. The bullet that found his leg exploded through his femur just above the knee. It exited with pieces of bone and flung him through the air. The pain was exquisite. In the seconds it took him to land, he told himself not to scream because that would give away the location of the men around him. Then his lungs filled with air, and he couldn't help it. He screamed in agony.  Two SEALs shot their way through the firefight, stabilized him and shot their way back out to pull him to safety. – Credit Dianna Cahn from hamptonroads.com/ Episode 034: Jimmy Hatch – Wounded While Searching For Bowe Bergdahl And Sky Diving With Gabby Giffords Subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher Radio. The Learning Leader Show “There is a vetting process.  If you weren’t invested, then people would die.” Some Questions I Ask: What does being invested mean to you? And others in the military? How did you and Gabby Giffords become friends? Your mission was the get Bowe Bergdahl… How do you feel about him?  Do you see him as a deserter? What did you learn about your team when adversity struck? Why do you have such a strong connection with dogs? How have you learned about the strength of people when they are faced with challenges? Which individual leader has had the most influence on you? In This Episode, You Will Learn: The importance of investment and what it means to Navy SEALs The specific feelings going through Jimmy’s head when he got shot The importance of leaders being transparent The challenges faced when coming home from battle How Jimmy dealt with alcohol and drugs The importance of preparation in battle and in life The elements that define a quality life  “When I got shot, I went from being in command, to being a spectator.” Continue Learning Go To Jimmy’s  website: http://spikesk9fund.org/ Read article referenced in podcast by Dianna Cahn: Jimmy Hatch Read about Jimmy and Gabby Giffords Skydiving together: Jimmy Hatch & Gabby Giffords You may also like these episodes: Episode 001: How To Become A Master Connector With Jayson Gaignard From MasterMind Talks Episode 002: How To Take Over And Set Bigger Goals With Chris Brogan Episode 004: How Todd Wagner (and Mark Cuban) Sold Broadcast.com To Yahoo! For $5.7 Billion Episode 010: Shane Snow – How To Accelerate Success Using Smart Cuts Did you enjoy the podcast? This was a huge honor for me.  Jimmy Hatch is a leader who is a real life American Hero. Who do you know that needs to hear this?  Send them to The Learning Leader Show! Episode edited by the great J Scott Donnell   Bio From http://spikesk9fund.org/ Spikes K9 Fund was founded by James Hatch, a retired Special Warfare Operator. As a K9 handler on several deployments, James’ life was regularly spared by the work of K9s – one of the most memorable was Spike. And on James’ final deployment, the night he was critically wounded, a K9 spared James’ life while losing his own. From that evening on, James oriented his life around the training, care and preservation of working dogs. In addition to working as the founder and president of the fund, he works with local law enforcement and has adopted a former service dog in need of medical attention. From Dianna Cahn: hamptonroads.com -- In July 2009, Jimmy Hatch’s team - part of the Navy's Special Warfare Development Group - was on a search mission in eastern Afghanistan. The warriors landed in the dark and were hit with gunfire and rocket-propelled grenades as they made their way across a field. Jimmy was an old hand at this kind of mission. He'd become a SEAL in 1990 and joined his elite unit in 1994, back when there was no war. After six years, he left the unit to teach parachuting. When war broke out, he pushed hard to get back to Virginia Beach. That was in 2004. Now, five years later, Jimmy was a senior chief, a leader of expert commandos, strong and alert and brimming with confidence. He was one of the toughest guys in the world. The bullet that found his leg exploded through his femur just above the knee. It exited with pieces of bone and flung him through the air. The pain was exquisite. In the seconds it took him to land, he told himself not to scream because that would give away the location of the men around him. Then his lungs filled with air, and he couldn't help it. He screamed in agony.  Two SEALs shot their way through the firefight, stabilized him and shot their way back out

I felt like as a leader I learned all the time. And the day I stopped learning and the day I started saying, yeah, man, I got this. I probably needed to find another job because I'm not an asset to my team anymore. I'm a liability. And then in work, you're one or the other. You're either an asset or you're a liability. And when you think you need to, man, I got it licked, you probably ought to find something else to do. You need to keep learning for sure.

Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. Welcome to The Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Tonight's episode is extremely special to me, and that's because I got to speak with a true American hero. His name is Jimmy Hatch.

Jimmy's a retired Navy SEAL. He became a seal in 1990. And on a mission in July of 2009, Jimmy's guys were tasked with going out and getting, picking up Bo Bergdahl, the soldier who had deserted his other teammates. And on that mission, Jimmy was shot through his femur just above his knee. And we get into detail about that mission and how his teammates responded when Jimmy was hit. very, very emotional part that you don't want to miss. We also talk about the difference between military leadership training versus civilian business world leadership training.

Really interesting part as well. And then the importance of great preparation and why each and every team member must be completely invested. And Jimmy really dives into that topic and I really, really enjoyed it. Again, without further ado, a true American hero, it's Jimmy Hatch. All right, Jimmy again, I'm so excited to have you joining us here in a learning leader show. But so in your lifetime, especially in your military life, you've been surrounded by some incredible leaders, some warriors, some true heroes. And they've all had incredible amounts of success.

And I'm asking specifically about the best leaders, the most inspiring, most successful leaders. What is one common trait or characteristic they all have in common? Investment. You know, the people that I was really, really fortunate to work with had all gone through a vetting process like I went through. And that was the most common theme. You know, by virtue of the type of work we were doing, if you weren't invested, then, you know, people would die. So, but invested took on a whole different meaning than what I think it means to most people, and that is across the board, you know, from where you're sleeping to how you're eating, to how's your family, to what's up with your guns, can we get better equipment?

I mean, investment. And that's the way I was taught, and that was a hard, learned lesson over, you know, years and wars. And in my community, that's, I think that's the one defining word is we are invested. That's incredible and it's different from a lot of the leaders I speak with that don't have the background that you have. And so when you say the quote, if you weren't invested, then people would die. It's got so much power behind it. And unfortunately, you've had to see, you know, that happened, even with guys who probably were heavily invested, but that they still, you know, tragically were, didn't make it out alive like you did. And so, you know, Jimmy, I went through your intro prior to us talking.

But I want to, there's a great article written by about you. And I normally don't do this, but I want to get us off, you know, with an action-packed part of this great episode. By the way, a massive thank you to you. It's Memorial Day. And typically when you do a podcast, you're supposed to make it timeless so you don't say what day it is. But I can't help it. I'm with an American hero, Jimmy Hatch, on Memorial Day, recording this episode. and I am so grateful to you and to your service to this great country.

And so I have to, I can't go on without at least giving you a big thank you before I read this part of this, this great story. You're welcome in and I think it's fortuitous. I think it, you know, guys, people, we live in a country where people are willing to go out and die for it. And we're really lucky. So I'm grateful to be here.

I'm grateful for what you're doing. And I look forward to listen to what you're about to read. Awesome. So this is from Diana Kahn. on it's hamptonroads.com. She wrote this, but I wanted to read it because it's emotional and it's going to kind of bring back some of the stuff that you went through, the hard things. And then after I read it, and it's a little bit longer, but after I read it, I want to get what you're thinking as I'm saying these words because I'm reading what you went through. Okay, here goes. In July 2009,

Jimmy's team, part of the Navy's Special Warfare Development Group was on a search mission. in eastern Afghanistan. The warriors landed in the dark and were hit with gunfire and rocket-propelled grenades as they made their way across the field. Jimmy was an old hand at this kind of mission. He'd become a seal in 1990 and joined his elite unit in 1994 back when there was no war. After six years, he left the unit to teach parachuting. When war broke out, he pushed hard to get back to Virginia Beach.

That was in 2004. Now, five years later, Jimmy was a senior chief. chief, a leader of expert commandos, strong and alert and brimming with confidence. He was one of the toughest guys in the world. The bullet that found his leg exploded through his femur just above the knee. It exited with pieces of bone and flung him through the air. The pain was exquisite. In the seconds it took him to land, he told himself not to scream because that would give away the location of the men around him. Then his lungs filled with air and he couldn't help it. He screamed in agony. Two seals shot their way through the firefight, stabilized him and shot their

way back out to pull him to safety. A week later, Jimmy was at Bethesda. He underwent 17 surgeries to clean the wound, to repair the damage, to clear out infection. Surgeons repaired his knee, reconstructed his femur and grafted nerves, lying in a hospital bed with a cocktail of powerful painkillers and too much time. Jimmy started to replay the moment over and over. He heard himself screaming in that Afghan night. He hated that sound. He hated himself for putting his buddies in danger to come to his rescue. The drugs, the inability to sleep, those things conspire against you, he says, and I was embarrassed. I felt like I completely dishonored my crew. Now, Jimmy, that is such a powerful thing. Like, I feel my emotions rising, just reading it. What, what are the motions in you as

you hear me reading that? Well, first off, I'm going to be honest with you, Ryan. That's a lot of really fluffy language for a bunch of dudes that just went through some training together, and we're out whipping the enemy's ass. I love it. I love it. You know, excruciating, you know, exquisite, you know, all those types of big, you know, multi-syllable words that aren't cuss words, which I'm not really good with. No, Diana's awesome. That was a really good article, and I understand, you know, why it's written like that. I think the most important thing there, is that, you know, I was in kind of a mid-level leadership position, but it was a tactical one. So, you know, at a certain point, I was, you know, kind of a guy making some of the calls that, you know,

determined how things unfolded. And, you know, when there's lives in the balance, that's significant. The reason that I, well, there were multiple reasons that I felt bad, you know, once you get hurt, you know, people have to risk their lives to help you more often than not. And that just, it just killed me. I just wish I was faster. I wish I would have, you know, I went through some heavy duty therapy after I retired from the service, even actually, always still in the service.

And, you know, one of the best people I worked with, he said, you know, we got to go through this again and we have to relive it and you have to write it out over and over and over. And, man, that was horrible. But once I got to the end of that road, I realized, you know, given the information I had and the circumstances the way they were, I wouldn't change anything. I wish it would have come out differently. You know, I think if you're pure and invested and you really believe in what you're doing, you think it's the right thing to do based on your knowledge and experience.

You're kind of pure, and it took me a while to get around to that. But I think that's, you know, and I think that certainly reflects itself in what type of a leader you have or you are. You know, you can, I think most humans are fully capable of figuring out right away if somebody really is invested or not. And like I said, it was a byproduct of the work. but with us if you weren't invested you know people could die those guys I mean let me put a little detail on this right so I get tagged in the leg I'm screaming

I scream on my radio I'm hit I'm hit it's horrible I was such a sissy man oh really I feel like I know you know other guys have screamed too that's not the point I just you know it was just pathetic actually but guys heard that and two guys one guy that was with me he

immediately took care of things and he had a lot of things to take care of because when I went down he was the next guy and there were still things going on. So we guys covered a lot of ground to get to me, and both of them, neither of them knew the other one was coming. And they both knew that they were advanced medics, and they got to me, and they went to work. And they went to work on me in the dark.

You know, they couldn't see anything. You couldn't turn headlamps on because we were getting shot at, you know, and they're jamming, you know, they're stopping the bleeding. I mean, it was a pretty intense little thing, you know, and so you're hanging it out there. You think you're going to die. you people save your life. At that point, I kind of became a spectator.

And truly, you know, I was accustomed to the type of leadership that you see on a regular basis in combat. You know, that was a comfortable place for me. But what I wasn't aware of, I hadn't really any reason to be aware of it, was the kind of leadership that takes place where that's not happening, but you're still with the same group. You know, that's kind of what I talked about earlier being invested. Regardless, I felt like I was pretty much useless.

I couldn't really fight anymore. I wasn't really in it mentally. and these people, I mean, they took up slack. They took care of me. I mean, they were invested all the way through. And I think that's a, man, I just, I think if you could apply that to a business model, like if people were genuinely invested, I mean, you don't have to die for business. You know, I understand that.

But honestly, the more invested people are, the more likely your success is going to be significant. Absolutely. I mean, the investment's everything. And that specific mission, wasn't it? And this might let me know if this is accurate. was that to go after our searcher and rescue mission for Bergdahl? Is that right? Yeah, it was.

It was a few days after he, you know, I was told he was, they walked off his post and he'd gone into town, was asking the locals if anybody spoke English. You know, it was a few days after that and we just, you know, they called us and that was kind of our thing. It wasn't certainly a situation in which we would want, you know, if we could pick all the circumstances. You know, it's always in a way game with us anyway.

We're kind of in a neighborhood that isn't. ours. Yeah. And we don't really know the terrain as well. I mean, he was an American. He was an American. And regardless of whether he walked off, he was still an American, he had a mom, you know. And so we went out.

We did what we had to do. He definitely was American. I know he's a part of our military service. And so we understand that. But in a way, did it feel like for you guys that he wasn't invested, though, because he walked off. He left. you guys didn't do that.

You stayed or you've served. And so in a way it almost feels to me, and I could be completely wrong here, though, that at that moment, when he made that decision, he put a lot of you guys in danger and he wasn't truly invested in the same thing that you guys were. No, for sure. And, you know, I think that's something that is, you know, I don't know as a civilian that you can appreciate some of the significance of what he did.

And I don't really have any, you know, dogs in this fight. I'm, you know, what happened happened could have happened for, you know, a lot of different missions. But, you know, I certainly hope that he gets his day in court, and I hope he has to be held accountable for what he did. But, you know, once a person, once an American goes missing, you know, there's only so many assets. And by assets, I mean, airplanes and, you know, intelligence assets and helicopters, there are only so many assets in theater. And there's a lot of things going on in theater, meaning in the country. and, you know, if they have to focus assets to a specific geographic area because somebody did something stupid like he allegedly did, then the people in the rest of the country are at a higher

risk. So there's really no way to put a price. I know that there are, I've read that there are guys from his former unit that state emphatically that they went out looking for him and dudes got killed. So that's, you know, that's a significant thing. But then, you know, it's really hard to try to understand the ripples as those things expand You know, hey, well, we've got to find this guy. So we need to take aircraft from this area, and I know, these guys don't have direct air support, you know.

Certainly, I don't know. I don't have a logbook, but I'm just talking from my perspective, and that was, you know, it makes sense to me. I know when we went out that night, we had assets, and if we didn't, I'd be dead for sure. Yeah, that's incredible. So I got a question about, because a little bit into what you're currently doing today, and as well as about, you know, the military, life and transition from being a great leader as a Navy SEAL and then making that transition. So the military seems to me that they place a lot of training focus on leadership, while the private sector probably emphasizes training and experience in management, HR, profit, and loss,

etc, more so. What aspects of your Navy SEAL professional development have you found useful as you've transitioned to the civilian world? Yeah, you know, first off, let me back up. You know, you said I was an excellent leader. I was actually kind of average. Really? Yeah.

No, I mean, I'm just being honest. Yeah. There were people that I worked with that were extremely talented people. And then there were people who were like me, you know, we just did our best, but we didn't really have that umph that some of the other guys did. And I'm not trying to be, you know, I'm not trying to be too self-facing here. It's just the truth. There were guys around me that were really, really good leaders and they kept, you know, they, I liked, I admired the way they went around about things and I tried to emulate them sometimes as well. So for me,

honestly, and I think this is a human thing. I don't know that it's about business. I think it's just a human quality, but man, I think being transparent is the one thing that I learned. You know, look, we'd go out and do missions or even training missions and we'd make mistakes and we'd come back and, you know, it seemed brutal. You know, at first, I'm like, holy cow, these guys are being really hard on us. As I got older, I understood the value of that. And I knew at the end of the day, we might go have a beer. But right then, the person who was talking to me and telling me I'd kind of blown it on that training mission or I could have done better, he has to, you know, we have to do that in order to get better. in order to be, you know, excellent, you have to be willing to be transparent and you have to be willing to accept it.

And I think that was one of the best things that happened in the SEAL teams, and specifically, you know, the crew I rolled with. And I was not sure how that would work in the outside world. And it turns out that it actually does work. It doesn't work with the same, you know, level of cussing that I am accustomed to. But, you know, that goes back to that HR stuff you ever mentioned earlier. Well, it might depend on where you're going. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm sure. So when you go out and you see civilian managers or leaders,

because then you speak to companies and you do things that help inspire and show them great leadership skills now that you've probably grown as a leader, what are the biggest areas that they need, I'm talking civilian managers and leaders, need to improve? Yeah, you know, honestly, Ryan, I don't know that I, I mean, And just give you my opinion. And in my opinion, I think if it seems like there's so, that there are so many, like, details to just a single position in a, in a, in a business.

Like, it seems like if things could be clarified, if you could clarify that purpose and direct that energy as a leader, if you could direct it towards what it needed to be directed towards, then, then you would be successful. Here's an example. So even in the military, the military is full. military's, you know, social change happens in the military a lot of times first. So, you know, because they can, you know, we're not, we don't have a union, you know, hey, show up and do this or you're getting in trouble, you know, that kind of thing. But, you know, one of the great things about some of the leaders I had, and I tried to emulate this as well, was that when we went out the door to go to work, people could die.

And anything that took away from the time that we had at home to train or to be with our families, two important things. Anything that was kind of a waste of time that was silly, you know, that they were good at most of the time trying to clear the way for us to keep focused on what we need to be focused on. And again, I was kind of a middle management guy, but, you know, I knew that that's what we had to do. And it was difficult, and that's a battle. I always joke man, you're always fighting two wars. You're fighting the war against people who are trying to kill you, and you're fighting the war against the people who are trying to get you killed by their stupid crap that they're wasting your time.

before you go. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. And so, but, you know, I know in some of your talks, you, you, you have this, this, this very strong belief that people can do really, really great things when faced with immense challenges. You know, can you give an example or two by, you know, from that statement that I've, that I've heard you make? Well, I mean, I can talk about my personal stuff, but I think one that everybody could kind of relate to is look at the, go on YouTube and look at the Boston bombing footage, right? So, you know, I'm talking about right when the bombs go off and you can kind of see the finish line, you see some people going down and you watch. And it's probably, I don't know what the numbers exactly are, but it's close to 50, 60 percent of the people.

They ran back into those bombs to help people. I mean, you know, we all saw those pictures, the guy with the cowboy hat. You know, who knows what those people did for a living? Who knows where they were raised? Who knows what their income bracket was? They were just, you know, on it. They were, and that to me is amazing. And, you know, those people didn't go through any special training or any,

they just were being awesome humans. And, you know, I think I always say when I give these little speeches to the veterans groups or to the military guys, and it's, you know, it's predominantly about suicide awareness. But I always say, man, you're stronger than you think you are. and you're not nearly as tough as you think you are. And I'm a good example of that, right? I was a tough guy, and then a second later I'm laying there screaming on the ground, I'm useless. So, you know, does that answer?

Yeah, absolutely, man. I mean, really, I think it's getting at the heart of, I think the whole purpose behind this and why I think you can bring so much value is because you've done so many extraordinary things from a leadership perspective that that can carry a, over into the business world to where you can use those examples and it's not the same you know obviously we're not like in literal battles with bullets flying and people use those metaphors all the time like all right let's go to battle and it's in a way it's you know it's for you may it's got to be bothersome I always feel uncomfortable using using that type of language because like I'm never like

I don't go to battle you know at any type of job like even when I played football I wasn't going to battle you know we were playing a game and yeah I could get hit and it could hurt and it could hurt, but it's not like we're firing guns at each other. You know, we're playing a game. And so that kind of talking like that is, is uncomfortable for me. And so I'm curious when you hear that type of talk, you know, what goes through your mind? Because you're trying to translate some of that to help people, but also you hear people probably use it just in the wrong way. Yeah, you know, I try not to, well, I mean, there were times when I was like, you know, and it was actually kind of funny. It was generally like athletes.

out here. I'm a warrior. No, you're not. I'd get all fired up about that, you know. But really, I mean, you know, everybody's kind of rolling with their own experience. And so I don't, I'm not as harsh about it now. But I think one thing that is true about both the military and the civilian business world, at least in businesses that actually want to succeed. And I've actually seen this, the drive and the clarity. You know, I think you don't have to have gone through this heavy duty vetting process and, you know, there are, I think that there are ways that you can discern, you know, the crew that you're with and if they are, if they're invested. And if they're not, maybe you need to move along because they outnumber you or maybe, you know,

they need to move along. You know, I think, and in our line of work, that's kind of what happened. You know, guys would find their way into, look, I'll be blunt with you, man. There were, you know, a lot of seals when war started that didn't really want to go to war. And that's true. That's true in all of the services. I mean, not a huge percentage, but there were guys like, I don't want anything to do with that.

And then conversely, there were guys that are like, I'm stuck in this job, and I don't want to do it. I want to be going overseas with my bros, and I want to get in the fight, I want to punish the enemy. That happens, you know, and I'm not trying to be disrespectful with my former crew. That's not it at all. It's just a reality.

I mean, they're just, it's real easy to do things when there's a lesser chance that you're going to get killed. It's an entirely different story when, And, you know, we all talk this big thing. We're preparing for war. But when it actually goes down, you know, it was interesting to see that. It was really interesting to see that. So you brought up a word that I think is very important.

And that's preparation. And so I think, you know, I learned my preparation from the athletic fields of what it took to be prepared to play on Saturday afternoons or Saturday nights in college football. And that's the preparation from the winter workouts, the spring ball to lifting weights all the time. watching a ton of film through the week. And obviously, you know, the Navy SEALs are known for being probably the most prepared humans on the face of this earth for their missions. You talk a little bit about preparation and what it means to you and how it's probably

helped you as you've progressed in your life because it's been just embedded in all of your being. Yeah, you know, that was actually something that was a difficult. It was somewhat challenging for me. And you're exactly right. I mean, it's a very important part of the, it's a very important part of, you know, going to work, just being prepared. And I don't really care what your work is.

You need to be prepped or you're an idiot. But my perspective was always, you know, keep things to the basics, work on that, and don't get too locked into choreographing what could happen. So what I mean by that is if I'm solid at, with my, my guns, if I know how to use my comms, if I'm understanding the way the assets are lined up, and if I have a good idea of what the terrain is going to look like when I get there and how to use that stuff, the tactics involved, then the rest of the stuff that goes on, it's not really going to matter. And I didn't play much football. I played football in junior high school, but, you know, if I was a

linebacker and I was an outside linebacker, I kind of had, you know, my little deal. I didn't know what plays they were going to run. We'd prepare it. But I knew that I had a specific kind of area that was my responsibility and who I had to stop from getting on the field, that kind of stuff. So, I mean, that's very basic and certainly not very nuanced, but I always looked at it in that regard. Like I always thought about sticking to the basics

and being super good at that and then whatever came across, whatever rolled across, you're going to go back to that anyway, I promise. Yeah, you're practicing, working on fundamentals. I had a great coach named Terry Hepner. Unfortunately, he's not with us anymore, but Coach Hepner would always tell us every single day. We're going to have a plan.

we're going to work the plan and then we're going to plan for the unexpected because you're exactly right whether it's you know like I said I don't like to compare football to the military life as it's not but that's that's my background and so but I know that going out there where I played it it never went exactly how you wanted to go I never want how you plan so you have to be willing and able to adapt to tough situations and you're going to get punched in the mouth like you're going to get you're going to get hit and in your case obviously that that that That was a bullet. But you had other missions, I would imagine, to where they didn't go like you guys wanted

them to go and you had to be able to adapt and react in the situation and get back to the basics so that you had an understanding of, okay, where this is, adversity has struck, how are we going to respond? Yeah. And, you know, and the perfect example of preparation and it being effective is, and the basics, is when I got shot, boom, I'm down. There were two other guys with me. they had to finish the gunfight.

It's really a difficult thing to listen to your buddy screaming and disregard it because if you don't finish the gunfight, then they're going to kill you. You're all going to be laying there screaming or you're all going to be their dead. So that was something that we trained for. Boom. Then the second thing, they get the guys down, they figured it out, and the guy who took my place says, you hold here, keep your gun pointed that way to the other guy. and he came over to me.

And then he did what he needed to do medically, got on his radio, and he started calling the right people. And in the interim, I'm screaming on my radio, and the other guys come across, and they know what to do. So the wheels are rolling. I mean, there's people doing, there's all kinds of things going on, and it was all just because we had practiced the basics. And had they not been quick, I'd have bled to death, for sure, man.

And those guys saving my life, you know, they were pretty brave, because when they dropped us off, It was not cool. How many guys were on that mission specifically with you? You know, I don't like to get into exact numbers, but it was, it was, you know, it wasn't, it was, it was probably around half the number of people you see in uniform on the, on the Bengals sideline. Okay. On the game day. So you dropped out of a helicopter and, and when you're hit, you have to call them.

And so I'm just trying to, like, get a visual here, and they have to fly back down. Yeah, so think about it. So you and I are in a car and you drop me off. I'm going into a store, and I go in the store, and there's a big gunfight, and you're like, wow, I got to get out of here. And then I call you on the cell phone and say, hey, man, can you come get me? And you're like, wait a minute, man, there was just a big gunfight. And you're like, no, I'll be right here at the front entrance.

Right. So that's the kind of thing that goes on. And those guys don't blink. You know, those guys. They just go, right? And you would have done the same for your brothers if that happened to them. I mean, you probably did do that. I would imagine other moments throughout your service.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. You know, and I think that's part of the investment, you know. I mean, if you can clearly see that, you know, I didn't worry about it, actually. I knew, hey, if things go sideways, everybody knows what to do. And that's part of your job as a leader, too. You know, hey, we're going out to do business. And did I do my due diligence to make sure that everybody that's rolling with me

is prepared as best they can because that's common. sense, you know. Yeah. And so when you, let's, let's fast forward a little bit and you get done and you're you're, uh, you're, you're, you're healing up and you're back home. And I know, um, you went through some some difficult times. And can you share a little bit about what that adversity was like when you're back home after, um, you know, you've been wounded and you're trying to heal up. And, and obviously emotionally, it's very, very tough. What, uh, what are some of the, the tough things that you went through during that process. Yeah, I think, you know, I always knew I was kind of arrogant, but I think I really saw,

you know, later in hindsight how really arrogant I was. I mean, I remember initially people coming to me, people are respected, you know, and they were saying, hey, look, man, this is going to be a long road, you know, there's going to be problems. And I was like, you know what, man, I'm not, I'm not that guy. I'm, you know, I'm in it, you know. And, whoa, what an idiot. So, you know, things start weighing on me, and I struggled quite a bit in the hospital.

I struggled, you know, the bus of staff, man. I was hallucinating. I thought I was being held captive. It was ugly, man. Wow. And I was yelling at him. I'll kill everybody in this room. It was funny.

And, you know, then as things start to mellow out and the surgeries are going, I get home, and things are pretty much in order. I start, you know, I'm spending a lot of time alone. My buddies are still overseas. I'm really, you know, I miss them. you know, I'm worried about them. Gosh, you know, I can help. You know, it's like taking your finger out of a glass of water, really, with us. I mean, most of the time, you just, it's easy to replace you.

But so I'm sitting alone, and I'm in pain. So I got pain meds, and I like Stolies. And so I started drinking and washing my pain meds now with that, and I just turned ugly. And I was, you know, I turned into a complete, you know, dumpster fire. I was a mess. And, you know, my people got involved. And they forced themselves on me because I was alienating. I didn't want any part of it.

I just wanted to leave me alone, let me heal up, and I'll get back to doing things as soon as I can. And they could see that they could see. And, you know, they could talk to members of my family. And, you know, so it ended up with, you know, the law enforcement coming over and holding me down, not literally, but keeping me calm until guys from my crew came and got me, took me to the hospital. And I spent probably close to six months in kind of a mental slash rehab type. facility different ones and I learned a ton in there man but what I learned most was that no matter how bad and you know we say this all the time it's really kind of cliche but no matter how bad you

have it there are people who are challenged by a lot more than you and you know at some point you're going to have to come to the conclusion that you want to live and that you want your life to be good and one of the ways that I did that was it hit me when the two guys who actually came to me and saved my life that I got hurt actually both played a part in me getting sent or taking me to and then visiting me in the the metal facilities that I was in and you know when people save your life you kind of owe them and you owe them in a couple of ways one you own what you do after they do that you don't disrespect them you don't endanger them of their families and the second thing is you got to live your life full you can't half ass it

I mean, those guys risk their neck for me. And for me to just be a bum and not, you know, use what I've been given, the opportunities I've been given, and the skills I've learned, that would be disrespectful. And so being able to clear my head and get off the booze and the drugs, sit in rooms with people who were really smart people who had been through really tough things, that was really beneficial for me. and that was all provided to me by my leadership. I mean, they could have written me off and said, look, this guy's out of it. He's done. He can't do anything for him, put him out, you know.

And then, of course, the consequences would have been significant for me and my family, but that was not what happened. You know, that's, you know, I look at, I wonder about this, especially, like, some of the people that I've talked with business people are up in New York and there's these kind of finance jobs, and they're, like, super aggressive. And, you know, everybody's going to have a down day or down a week. And, you know, I wonder, you know, I just think it would make the team, the crew of people a lot better if they took care of each other hard. You know what I mean?

Like if they, if everybody was invested in it, I think you'd gain some loyalty and a certain increase in investment by doing that. And I think that happens more often than not. It just, it's probably an impression that I have because I've watched too many movies. Yeah. So you, you then, you know, go through the difficult times and successfully with help, obviously from great leader. and now transition to what you're doing today. By the way, let me remember real quick. Before we get to that, you also, and this is not a small deal, this is a big deal,

but have skydived with Gabby Giffords. And I wanted to touch on and talk about her and your relationship with her and how you first got to know her. I know you obviously take people on jumps and dive and take pictures and do a great job with that and help other people who have been wounded. Can you share about your relationship and how you originally met Gabby Giffords and then the skydives you went on with her? Yeah, so I was actually in Afghanistan on a previous deployment, and she came over, I think she was on the House Armed Services Committee, and she came over to visit us, and, you know, I always throw it out to anybody that comes to visit us. Hey, why don't you go for a jump with us sometime?

And she's like, okay. That's the first time. That's the first time that's ever happened. And when we got back from the deployment, we got in touch with her. And she, we were training out in Arizona. And she said, yeah, you know, that's her district. And so called her. And she said, yep, Saturday morning.

And so we met for breakfast. And then we drove up and got in the airplane and jumped. And it was really cool. She was fearless, man. I mean, I don't have a ton of jumps, but, you know, a ton of jumps as a tandem guy where I've taken other people, but she was certainly one of the bravest, and she really enjoyed it. And it was cool. Then so fast forward, I get hurt, and she came to hang out with my wife a little bit in the hospital, you know, when I was in Bethesda. And, you know,

her husband's obviously a retired captain, Navy astronaut. So she understood the military, I think, in a way that a lot of other elected officials maybe didn't. And it was a really interesting discussion and it was really cool of her. And then, of course, you know, fast forward later on, she's out meeting her constituents and a crazy person shoots her in the face and kills some of her friends and injures a bunch of the other ones and it was crushing. And I just couldn't believe any of it that I really want to hurt her. It's just mind-boggling me. But anyway, I got an invite with a buddy of mine, another seal, to go down to Houston and see her when she was in therapy there. Honestly, man, that was a big, it was a beneficial thing for me.

personally. I was kind of out of some of the heavier duty problems that I'd had, but I was still struggling, and I met her in the hospital, and they said, hey, you know what? She looks really different, and she did. And she's, she's, she may not remember you. And, you know, they were just kind of briefness. They wanted us to be prepared, not, you know, shocked. And we walked in the room, and she yelled my name and was waving with her left hand. And it was like, holy cow, you know, It was just, it was so moving. And then we watched her do her therapy that day. And, I mean, she's just kind of a diminutive woman.

And so in the fact that she got shot, you know, from, you know, 18 inches away in the face with a 9-millimeter pistol. And they've removed half of her skulls so that her brain will stop swelling. And she has to wear this funny-looking bicycle helmet when she gets out of bed. And she's just, I mean, you want to talk about heroes, man. And they would make her rest. Like, hey, no, you got to go rest. She didn't want it. So that's pretty awesome.

And I know that her notoriety is certainly well-deserved, and it's unfortunate that it happened in a sad way. But the thing that she doesn't let any of that stuff defeat her, she goes out. I know she does speeches, and it's really, really difficult for her to talk, and she has to really, really work to do these speeches and she'll stand up in front of thousands of people. and she was obviously a really good speaker before she got hurt and guess what she is now

she's a really good speaker that gives shorter speeches and it's just awesome man it's it i mean she's just an amazing person and you know like the guys that i rolled with um some of the people i worked with over the years you know she's right there you know yeah and she yeah for sure she's it's cool man it's inspiring to to me and i know um i've heard you talk about her i just i don't know man I wanted to make sure we touched on that on her because of everything that she's been through and you've been through together. I know you guys jumped together more than once and just it's inspiring. It's really neat.

Yeah, it was cool. You know, the Today Show thing was really funny and I was really glad to be a part of it. You know, she's, they're definitely busy people and they have a lot going on. They're trying to change a lot in our nation. And it's just cool to be, you know, part of it from time to time. They're incredible people. And we're lucky to live in a country where, you know, people get shot in a face. And instead of folding it up and saying, you know what, I'm going to hate everybody and I'm going to hate life, they go out and try to affect change.

And that's, we're really fortunate, man. Yeah, absolutely. So let's get into what exactly you're doing now on a day-to-day basis to help others, to help, some animals. I think I can hear some of them in the background, which is pretty cool. But let's get into that. Yeah. So I kind of stumbled around a little bit after I got out. And I, you know, my dogs, my work dogs saved my life quite a bit. And one day, because the cops that came over to my house the night I went crazy,

they had every right to freaking tase me or shoot me. And my wife told them who I was. So they knew that, you know, I couldn't be a handful. And they came over, man. and they were chill, and I think the police call it verbal judo. They were good at it, man. They had me all chilled out. So, you know, I did a lot of stuff with dogs in combat.

I had a lot of missions, and I'd done quite a few things with dogs. And so I thought, man, maybe I can help out the guys, you know, the cops. That's a way I can kind of pay back, you know. And so I met some of the Canaan officers, and they kind of knew who I was. and we started working together. And one of the guys had a dog who had chased down a bit some armed armed robbery suspects. And he'd also found a dude in a woman's house who was buried underneath a big pile of clothes in a closet. And, you know, he's kind of a certified badass.

And he had a medical problem and the people in the, you know, in the city didn't think that it could be taken care of. And so they were basically going to take this dog, you know, off. the street, you know, this officer was somewhat despondent about it. I mean, he'd been through a lot with this dog, and the dog improved himself, which is a big deal, you know. And so he started doing research on his own. He found a university not far from here where they did the surgery, and they talked to the, he talked to the medical staff, and they thought not that they could help. And, you know, then he got the price. And I was like, well, that's it. So I started, I've made a little logo out of my, uh, a picture of me and my dog Spike, and I started selling T-shirts and hats and

paid for it. So it kind of took off and I started realizing, you know, that a lot of the, you know, there's a lot of dogs working in the United States, not just military dogs, but there's, you know, law enforcement search and rescue. There's therapy dogs that take care of people. Like Gabby has a great therapy dog that was trained, you know, by a prison inmate and then, you know, they're taking in. So, but, you know, there's not a lot of money to take care of those people, those dogs and they, sometimes they can suffer. And sometimes they don't, like, cities can't afford. to pay the cops enough, if you ask me, let alone buy the best cure for dogs. So sometimes those dogs are going into these fights and these buildings looking for these,

you know, suspects that have done bad things and are getting ready to harm them and they don't have the right equipment on them. And, you know, so it's kind of my mission now. Like, I didn't realize, I mean, I just didn't know how, how kind of dire the situation was for a lot of these cops and their dogs, you know, and their team and they work together. And so that's my mission now, man. So I have this little Spikes Canine Fund. and I'm out selling T-shirts to have a website and I'm learning SEO and things that I

didn't ever think I would know, a fire hose in my mouth, and it's awesome. It's awesome. It's really cool. And I'm really good people that are taking care of me and helpful. It's just a learning process, but it's a mission. So I have a good focus and I'm invested, you know. Yeah. And also, in addition to that, right, you're going around the country and giving speeches as well.

Is that something you want to be a big part of your? life too? Yeah, I do. I think, uh, and I've just been given the circuit, you know, like I said, man, when I got, when I got shot, I was immediately transformed from, you know, the commando to the spectator. And I think I was fortunate to be able to witness some of the things that I did. And, uh, I think that those things can probably be communicated to people in a, in a somewhat untraditional way. You know, I'm not, I'm not the rah-la, you know, I'm just, I think I got shot and I went down and then people, and a lot of people, complete strangers, carried me, man.

So I think that conveying that, and I think that that little theme can fit into business. You know, it can fit into, you know, other humans who are struggling with problems and other humans who don't realize that they have the ability and the power to be, you know, a difference maker in people's lives. And, you know, I think it's okay to wake people up to that a little bit. And I think, honestly, you know, we're talking about leadership and, and of course, with kind of a business slant to it, you know, if people really trust each other and they know that everybody's invested, you know, I think that that can be very beneficial and that I think it'll make, not only will the business be successful, but humans will be successful as

one another and I think that's important you know like when I talk about the things that I miss I don't really miss the military per se there's just a lot of silly stuff that I you know I'm older I'm like ah that's stupid I never had to but but I miss my I just miss the dudes and being able to work without really having to talk to each other and just you know the investment in the drive and the camaraderie of being around each other yeah for sure I mean you know I wasn't a really big that's a lie I like to go out and drink occasionally but uh I But, you know, I'm talking about, you know, on the job and then we get back. And, you know, we're living overseas and sometimes austere, sometimes not austere conditions.

And we'd come back and we'd sit down and we'd just talk about stuff. You know, those types of conversations were meaningful. And I like that. But I think I'm finding that a little bit in this dog stuff. And I think, you know, in businesses there's an opportunity for that too. I don't think that you need to have gone through all this vetting process and to be invested and to care about each other. That's what I'd like to run my mouth about. And I think it's, look, man, here's my opinion.

opinion and you know more about this Ryan than I will ever know but you know I think the people it seems like that I've watched some TED talks and I think you know people just saying stuff that that the people they're talking to you already know they're just trying to say it in a way that makes them feel like they even want to better themselves in those particular directions you know so I don't think there's a whole lot of originality in any of that stuff I think it comes down to life experiences and you know I had some good ones yeah I'm curious about how you're doing day to day. Like, like, is it still, are there still really, really tough moments?

Do you still have struggles? I mean, like, we all have struggles, but I mean, like, do you still have day-to-day issues kind of thinking back to those times when you were drinking or taking the painkillers and did some things that put you kind of in a mental type hospital for six months? Like, are you completely okay? or do you still have moments and days where that they're they don't go well? For sure, man. I mean, you know the answer to that.

It's like, like it's part of being human, you know. It's not because I was a Navy SEAL and special. It's just, you know, I think we all have the ability to have those days. And I do struggle. I remember one time when I was actually, it was not long after I got hurt and I had hallucinated that I was being held. Kathy had threatened to kill all the path in my room. You know, they were trying to figure out a way to help me sleep. and I remember this, he was in, he seemed an older doctor.

He came into my room and, and I relayed this experience to him, you know, when you go through, when you're in diving, when you dive and you're in kelp, you know, if you, if you reach out and, like, struggle with it, it's going to wrap itself around you and it can be, you get caught up in it, is what I'm trying to say. And so I would get caught up in these thoughts and these memories and these visions and these regrets and reliving things and oh my gosh i can't believe i said that i can't believe i did that all was i thinking and i would get wrapped up in this kelp of you know the issues in life that really you know don't aren't at the end of the day they're not as important as we sometimes

make them out to be and so i still struggle with that for sure i mean there's still times when i don't feel like man i can't even show my face around those guys you know i got hurt everybody had to risk their lives and you know i should have been faster you know i get caught up on it But, you know, then I have people around me and people who call me and, you know, my family. And I run into strangers and we chat. And I go to do my little talks. And sometimes I meet people there that are really compelling and amazing people. So I think if I can just keep focused, I'll be all right.

Yeah, absolutely. I just got that, you know, that's sense, you know, because we all go through things. And you've been through some things that are just, I don't know, on another level. And so I got to believe that it's never going to truly. you know, you're going to have those thoughts like you just, you just mentioned, you mentioned it a couple times. So I got to believe that there are always going to be days that come up where they're kind of a battle. And again, not to use that word again, but it is. It's like a battle of you with your own mind of having to deal with, you know, maybe a little guilty even, it sounds like,

that you have with the fact that you potentially put your, or you feel responsible for putting your guys in danger when you guys are all out there on the same mission. And you just, they happen to to clip you, you know, and so I don't know, I got that sense. That's why I asked that question. Yeah, no, it's for sure. And, you know, I think that's something that's important for people who are not really familiar with the military. I think that's something that's important to convey, you know.

I think we're fortunate to be at a time in our history where people are genuinely sensitive to the effects that war has. I mean, you know, there's the political stuff and people can get in there and say this because of this. and try to create a little dramas where there doesn't need to be any. But honestly, I think people care about veterans, and I don't think that was always the case. You know, and I think it's important that we capitalize on that feeling in that time and let people know that, hey, man, you know, why wouldn't you have some issues coming back from that stuff?

You know, if you didn't, maybe you ought to be a little scared, you know. Yeah. You know, not everybody has to have issues the way I did. You know, mine were kind of heavy duty and they were self-imposed, but, you know, people struggle. And I think that's probably true in humanity as well. You don't know, like, you know, traffic's a great example because everybody gets pissed off in traffic, but you don't know why that person, I mean, you can make up a story in your head as to why that person cut you off. But you don't know, you know, you don't really know what's going on with them.

And can you control? Well, you've got your steering wheel and your gas pedal and you can chill out and enjoy your music and, you know, or be pissed off for the rest of the day, you know. So that's a little bit of a metaphor. But I think if, you know, try to go into a situation with other humans and realize, that you don't really know what the hell they're thinking. This old guy said that to me in one of my little psych situations. He was a guy who was farther down the path to getting better than I was. And he said, you know, man, I used to think, this is how crazy I was.

I used to think that I knew what other people were thinking. And that killed me because I was like, oh yeah, dude, I've been there, right? So I think there's something to be said for taking it easy on people. And we're really lucky right now as veterans. In fact, you know what, man, when I was in the hospital, there were a lot of people wanted to come in and see me. And it was a certain floor of the hospital that the wounded people were taken to you. And I remember these two guys came into my room today and I said,

hey, what the hell are you guys doing here, man? I mean, seriously, what do you do? And they said, well, we're a Vietnam veterans. And I'm like, oh, wow. So why are you here? And you look me right in the eye and they said, we want to make sure that you weren't treated the way we were treated. Wow.

Yeah. That's nice. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So, you know, again, it's just another example of these incredible people that I was fortunate to run into from time to time after I got turned into the spectator. Yeah, that's just powerful, man. And, you know, Jimmy, I really, I just appreciate you.

Again, I want to thank you. And this is just a monumental day for me, man. You just speak to a real hero. And I know, I don't even know if you like, you don't like me probably saying that. but I got to say it because that's what I believe, especially here on Memorial Day. And I do have one more question for you. And so this podcast, the purpose behind it is that I started it based on passions and loves of mine. And two of those things are the arts and the science of leadership and what goes into it,

the different methods and ways to do it successfully, as well as constantly improving. And that's why I term it just learning, getting better reading, speaking with great, great inspiring leaders like yourself. And so that's really why it exists. And I'm curious, so when you hear the phrase learning leader, what is, what's your definition of a great learning leader? I think that, I mean, that's a great, that's a great little line. I think the learning leader, as I think about my own experiences,

I felt like as a leader I learned all the time. And the day I stopped learning and the day I started saying, yeah, man, I got this. I probably needed to find another job. Because I'm not an asset to my team anymore. I'm a liability. And then in work, you're one or the other. You're either an asset or you're a liability. When you think you need to, then you got it, I got it, man, I got it lit.

You probably ought to find something else to do. You need to keep learning for sure. Absolutely, man. That's what it's all about. That's what this is all about. I know you're on that journey continually, just like we all are. And so you just live through some incredible, incredible moments. So again, Jimmy, I can't thank you enough.

This is different for me. I've been able to speak with a lot of great, great leaders, but this is just different for me because of the fact that, you know, you truly laid your life on the line. You got hit. It forced you to be a spectator, as you put it, and to see your guys help you. It's just inspiring story, man, to learn and to be able to talk with you about it. And I didn't think I'd get to talk with, like, true heroes, you know? I thought I could talk with, you know, inspiring leaders, but not really where they're on

the battlefield and they're taking shots and just crazy stuff, man. So I really, really do appreciate you. And I want to thank you very, very much. And I'd love to keep talking, man, because I'm excited to continually learn about your journey. Thanks, man. I appreciate it. And I'll let you roll with the hero stuff. But I was laying there in a field screaming.

I know, man. Keep that in perspective. I don't know how heroic that is. I don't know how many people listen to this have had that happen while they're defending our country and trying to go get the bad guys, man, you know? So let me, if I could, and I know you want to get this closed up. But, you know, today's moment of day. And right before we got on this, I got a message from the widow of a very good friend of

mine. And she was up at Arlington. And she sent me a picture of her husband's tombstone. and she said, I'm lying here on his grave, and I want my arms to be strong enough to slam through the ground and hold him. And that's a hero. She's a hero, man. She's a hero. Yeah, that is, that's tough.

That is, thank you for sharing that because that's so meaningful. And it's just, I don't know, I'm at a loss for words I really am. I mean, usually that doesn't happen to me here, but I am because of how powerful that is. I succeeded. Yeah. Seriously, man. Thank you so much for being a part of this and for sharing stories like that because it's, it just means so much to me.

I don't know everybody listening. So I really, really appreciate it. Like I said, I'm excited to continually watching and learning and speaking with you on your journey. And, I mean, I've never skydived either, by the way, just to lighten up a little bit. I'd love to do that. I don't know. Maybe you can give you some tips someday or tell me where to go because I'd love to, I'd love to do that, you know.

We'll go. I'll go with you. I'll take your picture. I would love it, man. That would be like a dream. So we're going to have to... I'm going to hold you to that. I hope you do.

I'm going to hold you to it because I really, really want to do that. I don't know if I could do it by myself. I don't know how that works. You'd have to explain that to me. Maybe I go tandem with you or something, but so I can get that figured out because I've never done it and I've considered doing it, but I haven't ever got out there. I'd love to, love to get out there and do that. It's better up there, man.

It's clean. It's beautiful. I can't wait. Well, awesome, man. Thank you so much, Jimmy. I look forward again to talking to you more, and I really, really appreciate it. Thank you.

I appreciate the opportunity, man, and take care and good luck on the future endeavors. Thanks, man. All right. Bye. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to Learning Leadershow.com for more information

and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on The Learning Leader Show.