The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 053: Shama Hyder – The Zen Master Of Marketing: Millennial Master Of The Universe

Starting point is 00:00:00 Honestly, Ryan, if there's one thing I believe, like a philosophy I absolutely stand by, it's that success breeds success. You really have to take those first few steps. You have to start to feel good. And then, you know, no pun intended, but the momentum that builds from that is tremendous. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders.

Starting point is 00:00:28 Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. Hey and welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk and another fascinating featured leader tonight. It's Shama Heider, known as the Zen Master of Marketing by Entrepreneur Magazine and the Millennial Master of the Universe by Fast Company. Shama is a visionary leader for the digital age. She's also the best-selling author of The Zen of Social Media Marketing and an acclaimed international keynote speaker who's been invited to share the stage with the world's top leaders, including President Barack Obama and the Dalai Lama.

Starting point is 00:01:24 Shama was named as one of the top 30 under 30 entrepreneurs in America by Inc. Magazine in 2013 and was honored at the White House as one of the top 100 U.S. companies to be run by a young entrepreneur. incredible leader Shama is. On our conversation tonight, a few of the things we got into. The common characteristics she views of high achievers. Also, her 15 by 5 tool. This is used for feedback, coaching, and to ensure the morale is very high at her company. We also got into her hiring process, how she makes decisions as to who will work for their company, such an important aspect of leading any business with explosive growth like she has.

Starting point is 00:02:14 Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, it's Shama Heider. Hey, Shama, thrilled to have you here on The Learning Leaders Show. I got a quick question to get us started. That's around high achievers. You obviously are an extremely high achiever, but you've also spent a lot of time around others who have done big things, have been successful, have achieved a lot of things in their lives. I'm curious as to what is one common characteristic, or maybe two common characteristics that those people all share? So, thrilled to be here.

Starting point is 00:02:57 Awesome. And, you know, I think the one thing that all high achievers share, and I appreciate you putting me in that bucket, I don't know how much of that is just being lucky in life, I think it's being able to take advantage of opportunities. I think that's really what differentiates high achievers, people who really get stuff done. from people who might talk a lot about it, but I think that's the key, at least from everyone that I've seen, that I have a lot of respect for. It's no matter what opportunity they were given,

Starting point is 00:03:25 whether that's an entry-level position, someone gives them a chance, and they run with it. You know, they take every opportunity that makes sense for them, and then they maximize that opportunity to the fullest. And I think that's a great skill set to develop. Absolutely. Now, when I say that or you think of that, and you're kind of your mind's being jogged here of high achievers.

Starting point is 00:03:48 Are there certain people, or there faces that pop up in your mind of ones that you're thinking of when you say that? I mean, really think about anybody that, you know, you think about Oprah Winfrey or Richard Branson or even some of the common, I guess, icons that you would see of success, Warren Buffett. I mean, these are people who come from humble beginnings, right? It's not like they had a lot of leeway to head start, I guess, but they really did take advantage of every opportunity that came their way. I mean, Warren Buffett, obviously, with the, I think we've heard the story of him spending countless hours of the library, really, you know, soaking up that knowledge base.

Starting point is 00:04:28 I think of Oprah Winfrey, he started as a broadcaster, Ryan Seacrest. I mean, these are just people that I feel like have done a great job in their careers and build something, you know, brands, sustainable brands, something bigger than themselves. And that's something they all have in common is whatever job they were given, they really knocked it out of the park, they gave it their all. And that's how they got to the next level. Absolutely. Now let's bring it to you.

Starting point is 00:04:54 And obviously, you achieved big things very early on in your life. I mean, I can just rattle off a few of the things. Obviously, the Forbes 30 under 30, known as the Zen Master of Marketing by Entremour magazine. A lot of things I could spend an hour just reading. your impressive bio, but I'd love to hear it from you in regards to what you're currently doing, but also take it back a little bit to some of the things that you've done that's gotten you to this point. Wow, so I've got a lot of my plate.

Starting point is 00:05:25 So let's start with where I am, and then I guess we can look back a little bit. So right now I'm wearing multiple hats and that I'm first and foremost CEO of the marketing Zen Group's full service web marketing and digital PR firm. Our goal is to be the most mega awesome digital marketing. marketing firm in the world. I like to keep those goals lofty. And so a big part of my day goes into that. And then obviously I have my personal branches branded under, you know, Shema TV where I do videos and keynotes and write books. And so I think a good way for me, at least that helps me a lot. Ryan is to have sort of an umbrella definition for my role because I think we kind of all need that.

Starting point is 00:06:04 At least I certainly do. And I consider myself chief value officer, CVO is what I call. call myself. Let me see. I have three constituents that I serve. One is my employees, my team. How do I make their lives better? So kind of every day I ask myself, like, what could I do to make their lives better, easier? You know, how am I investing back in the team?

Starting point is 00:06:24 And then the second constituent obviously tends to be our clients, people who are investing their time and resources with us, their trust with us. So how do we consistently stay on top of the trends for them? How are we consistently delivering value for them? And that's a big one. for me. And then the other tends to be, you know, the broad public. How do I take my knowledge base, the things that I'm learning, immersing myself in, the things that we're seeing just on the ground floor, practical trends, best practices? And how do I translate that to a larger audience?

Starting point is 00:06:56 Because as you can imagine, I get hundreds of emails every month. And I honestly become that person that I bothered me, the people who wouldn't respond to their emails right away. And, you know, I just, now it's to the point where I am. I'm so inundated, and I guess I could always have my assistant do it, but I'd like to respond to my emails, and I just have gotten a point where it's too much, but I look for platforms, even like this podcast, right, where I can share information, I can provide value, because if you look at all our subscribers, email, you know, Facebook, Twitter, my personal brand alone has a reach of over a million. And that means there's over a million people who are, who I hope that I'm making their lives better in some way,

Starting point is 00:07:40 adding value to you, not filling it with fluff, but really providing something where it's, I'm earning their time and trust. Yeah, absolutely. And interesting. And so you mentioned that high achievers have a combination of luck, but also they're, they're able to take advantage of opportunities. It feels to me like you have created your opportunities or you've made your opportunities. I mean, could you share a little bit about that, about your definition of success and high achievement that you personally have had and the opportunities that have come to you?

Starting point is 00:08:18 Because to me, it feels like they've been created by you. Yeah, so that's a really good question, Ryan. And I think it's, I think it's, you have to be able to make that distinction, right? And I, I certainly feel like I've been very lucky because I've been giving opportunities. And then, you know, I work hard. I work my bet off to take advantage of them. And I'll give you a really good example. So when I was in graduate school, I actually did my thesis on Twitter when it had like a few thousand users.

Starting point is 00:08:45 Very few people know that if they read the books or they're familiar with my brand. They might know that. But it's a pretty decent kept secret, I guess. And, you know, I was really interested in social media before social media was as commonplace as it is or is it, you know, it's kind of a household lingo. And it wasn't then. And I was really passionate about it. And I'll tell you, you know, when I was in graduate school in, at UT, University of Texas at Austin.

Starting point is 00:09:10 And every year, the program, if you're a graduate student, gives you a stipend to go to a conference, and it's the National Communication Association Conference. It's what everyone goes to. It's very academic. It's a good conference. But yeah, they give you a stipend to go there, and that's kind of what's expected.

Starting point is 00:09:29 And one year, I was looking into different conferences, and I thought, you know, there's this blog world and New Media Expo in Las Vegas. It was the first blog world now, I believe is so big that they have it on two coasts. But that was one of the first blog worlds ever. I mean, Twitter's very new. This is extremely early days of all this new kind of digital playing field. And I talked to my advisor and I said, listen, I know we always kept the stipend to go to this conference.

Starting point is 00:09:55 But has anybody ever asked, can we go to another conference? And so I showed her this conference. And I said, well, it's also in Las Vegas. Because I don't, I think I was barely 21 at that time. if that. I can't remember if I had to borrow a friend's ID or not. But I'd been to Vegas a few times before then. And, you know, and so she said, that's a great question. And she said, let's talk to the dean. And she got my stipend approved for a totally different conference that I got to go to. So I think it's those things where you look at opportunities, but, you know, then when I

Starting point is 00:10:25 was at the conference, I decided a good way to network would be to write up all the notes. Like I was, I guess, live blogging the conference before live blogging a conference was a thing. And then I collected all my notes and then whoever I met, I said, hey, I'm attending all these sessions, I'm taking these notes. I'm happy to send them to you. So I have people giving me their cards and their email addresses. So I was making contacts in an industry that, you know, I was still a grad student. I was still, I was just starting out, being immersed in this world. So I think it's those things where everyone has opportunities. I mean, everybody does, at least in the developed world, I think that one of the sad things about the developing

Starting point is 00:11:03 countries or if you look at places that are really worn torn, the saddest feeling is to sense that, you know, they don't have as many opportunities as we do. And how do you, how, for me, it's always a question is it's kind of a sidebar, I guess, but how do we offer them more opportunities, right? And then how they, if they take advantage of it, is up to them. But how do we increase opportunities across the board for everybody? But I think at least in the developed countries, we talk about North America, we're talking to the U.S., we have so many opportunities. And I was like this way in school, too. I think that's just all. always been how I was, even as a kid, I would just find ways to, I don't know, optimize things,

Starting point is 00:11:41 I guess and just be able to just to fully maximize whatever I was doing, whether. And so I was the kid who hobbled together like a thousand scholarships, I'm exaggerating, but I had a full ride to school. And it wasn't because, you know, UT gaming your full ride. It was because I applied to scholarships that, you know, I bet they had like four applicants, to be honest, because you're just so obscure and it took research and kind of saying, hey, here's this women's rotary club offering a textbook scholarship for 500 bucks. Let's do this.

Starting point is 00:12:14 Yeah. So I think it's kind of like that. You have to be able to, you have to be curious and ask questions. And when you do get the opportunity, then you really, you know, work to make sure that you're taking advantage of it. Man, I love that story, Shamm. I love it, especially, and you go to my website, learning leader.com, and the first thing you'll see at the top says, are you massively curious? Is that just naturally kind of how I am?

Starting point is 00:12:36 And I, so that story is just, is powerful because to me, it shows like, yes, you were, you were given an opportunity to go to a conference. However, you thought a little bit differently, asked questions, you were curious, you found what would probably be a better conference, were able to then get it approved, and then once you were there, did something above and beyond what others were either didn't think of or weren't willing to do. I read an article recently that was really interesting that said something similar where people were saying, how could you, you know, if you're a recent college grad or you're, it's a summertime between years in college, what's the best thing to do? And somebody said, go, go find one of the best startups in the world. Go work there if you have to do it for free and figure out what needs to be done without being told and then do it.

Starting point is 00:13:28 And so your actions kind of make me think of that. which is really powerful and it's a really cool story. Oh, thanks. And I think that's so important. I think if people take anything out off of this podcast, learning-wise, I hope that that's a big lesson on here. You know, it's to be just that curiosity, that hustle. And I just, I think that's huge.

Starting point is 00:13:53 Yeah, and so let me take it back to you. You're talking about your company, Marketing Zen Group, and I like that you had your three priorities in the in order. Number one was your employees and making their lives better. First quick question, how many employees do you have? 30 now. 30. Incredible.

Starting point is 00:14:11 Yeah. Okay, so I know you started with just one yourself. So now you're up to 30 employees and your first part of what you're working to serve is them, those 30 people. Did you, by chance, read the recent New York Times article written about Amazon.com, Jeff Bezos and his group? Oh, the culture issue? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:14:32 Yeah, yeah. And there's, yeah, so I was curious about that because now since that has come out, there's multiple pieces written by current Amazon employees as well as Bezos himself, who has said that that article is kind of a hatchet job. So there's differing opinions, obviously, like normally this is a polarizing story. But essentially, if you're reading the New York Times story, they're talking about how the treatment of the employees is not, for lack of a better word, is not great. And so when you see that, when you see a company that's had this massive success, depending on whose definition of success you use. But at a minimum, they've served a lot of people. We all go there to buy things online and we get them quickly and it's nice. Amazon Prime is easy, things like that.

Starting point is 00:15:19 What do you think of when you see stories like that with roughly 100 former employees coming out saying negative things about the culture or the people and how they're treated? So, I mean, Amazon, if you look at it, I think it's interesting because I think, one, it makes me full. I'm always glad that we live in a country where we have free press, right? So I think that's, I think that's fantastic that people can share their, their viewpoints and so forth. But you also have to put this into perspective. How many thousands of people work at Amazon? Yeah. Right?

Starting point is 00:15:56 It's a, it is a, at some point, it's a ratio game. And if you, let's say, 15,000 people work at Amazon. And out of that, if you've got 500 people even saying that this is a terrible place to work, then you still have to see it in that ratio, right? So I think as a reader, I take things with a grain of salt. As a CEO, I know that there's people who aren't a great fit for a company. I think as things get bigger, you're relying on more than just your own. leadership, so it's really important to have the right key managers in place.

Starting point is 00:16:33 So I think there's always lessons to be learned from all sides, but I feel like sometimes we have a culture of, in our own way, we're very quick to demonize people or demonize companies, demonize whoever, right? I think it's very easy to throw stones at like, oh, yeah, those big guys, Amazon. Especially very successful people. Exactly, exactly. And I think that that's true of companies for people. I'm not saying there's not, you know, that none of it's true or all of it's true.

Starting point is 00:17:01 I mean, I don't have that kind of working knowledge of Amazon, but then I also am, I guess, I'm cognizant enough to say I don't have that kind of information about Amazon. But I can tell you as a CEO for me, a takeaway is, you know, wow, we really do live in a culture of transparency. And it is important to have the right leaders in place because that's who your team members are more likely interfacing with. You know, most of these people, how many people work directly for Bezos, right? very, very, you know, and then you have obviously systems and you have so so much of it does come into acquiring the right talent, the right managers, the right leadership. You know, I'm grateful that we have a smaller company. I think you're a fortune something company, you have a whole different set of challenges. You'd have to be able to tackle them in a different way, but I think

Starting point is 00:17:46 feedback is important. For example, we use a tool called 155 at Marketing Zen and all my team members spend about 15 minutes filling out, or I guess I should say, you know, the managers who report to me, our team leads, our team department heads, take 15 minutes every week, every Friday to fill out this quick feedback survey that allows them to say, what went well this week, what were your challenges, you know, how's morale around you? Is there anything you think as a company could be doing a better job at? And then I take five minutes every week responding to those, which is great because I think as a company grows, it's really important to have your finger on the pulse of that. I love that actionable step that you're intentional with when it comes to making sure your finger stays on the pulse.

Starting point is 00:18:37 Now, I'm curious about you mentioned before that it's important to have the right managers, the right leaders. I completely agree that's so important. What is your process for hiring those people to ensure that you have the right leaders? working with you and for you. Yes, it's not a good question. You know, some of that is still, even for us, every, I think role is different. Then you can have like the same approach to every role.

Starting point is 00:19:07 I think we're very lucky that we get more resumes than we know what to do with. So that's a good problem to have because we, you know, either friends of employees who work here who want to work with us, who have heard good things or people online, just we have a lot of people. And so that means that allows us to have our pick, which is always very nice. We also try to do a project-based work with people before we bring them on full-time. So a lot of the people that are our employees, we've worked on projects with before. We've gotten a sense of their work and, you know, how do they work?

Starting point is 00:19:38 What's their style like? Is it a good fit? So I feel like resumes can only tell you so much, but you really have to work with someone to get a true taste of their style and, you know, determine if that's a good fit for you. Yeah, I'm always fascinated by that and how people do that when they grow because a great, great marketer, a guy I'm sure you know, Gary Vaynerchuk, we talked at length about how he hires. And I was surprised that he kind of is a gut instinct, hire quickly, fire quickly type of a guy

Starting point is 00:20:10 when I wasn't expecting to hear that from. I expected to hear about a process that made sure he, you know. And I'm the same way. I think in that regard is that for me, it's like, oh, great, you can sound great on paper, but how are you actually doing the job? You know, and some people who aren't great on paper end up being astounding, like, employees. Like, people who don't have, it's like, you have no background in marketing, but they pick up, like, so I think I agree with that.

Starting point is 00:20:38 There's a sense of, around here we say, do they share our sense of, you know, do they have a shared sense of sensibilities? Do they share our sensibilities? and I feel like that's kind of a good indication, you know, do they know how to present themselves to a client? If we put them in a group meeting, do they know how to communicate well? You know, is this someone who gets their culture? Because our culture is really fast-paced.

Starting point is 00:21:03 We work with a lot of, you know, different types of clients. It's a remote, most of our team is remote. So, you know, how do you thrive in that? There's just so many factors that we have to take into consideration. And generally, yeah, I can, I have a pretty quick sense of is this person going to be a good fit or not. Yeah, and you mentioned they have to be a good communicator. I completely agree. And another aspect of you and your brand is giving keynotes, public speaking, helping others and serving them through, you know,

Starting point is 00:21:37 giving speeches to large numbers of people. When did you get started doing that? And how have you become so good at giving, at doing, at. at a skill that I think is one, one of the most feared things for people to do that's getting up in front of a group and speaking, but then also excelling at it and being able to provide meaningful content in an interesting and educational way. Well, thank you for that. And, you know, it's funny because I feel like the ultimate, at least validation as a speaker,

Starting point is 00:22:11 because sometimes you're harder to tell the audience things that they're not necessarily very open to hearing, right? And so... What would be an example of that? For example, sometimes to get hired by a group that says our employees really need to learn to engage new media better, right? It's an older generation or whatever. And that's a fair broad generation, but I'm saying would people come to me with,

Starting point is 00:22:35 not necessarily do I agree with their assessment of the group or not? But sometimes they'll come in and they'll say, okay, we really need an outside expert to to share with these guys kind of the opportunities here that they could be taking advantage of or whatnot. And sometimes they'll say not all these guys are really open to this, you know, some of them see this is newfangled ideas or whatnot. So you're not always going to a crowd that like, I've never spoken to a crowd that's been disrespectful and I think that's fantastic. But to me, the ultimate indicator of whether it was successful is if you get invited back by the group. And so a lot of my keynotes are repeat, you know, different subject, but they want, and that's

Starting point is 00:23:12 great. So for me, like, I focus on that. Am I conveying what the person, my client, right? Am I delivering for my client? Obviously, you have to deliver for the audience, but the clients hired you to do a job for them. I feel like you have to deliver on that. So for me, getting rehired as a good indicator,

Starting point is 00:23:30 as a speaker of, hey, do they like your performance, right? I think I will be really honest, Ryan. I feel like speaking is one of those things where you do need some innate talent that can be honed by skill. There are people that I know can spend years practicing that, but they don't have a passion for it. They don't have an aptitude for it. It would be an uphill climb.

Starting point is 00:23:55 So I don't think it's something that's right for everybody. I think I always liked speaking. I always liked platforms of communication. Like communication in general has been my thing. I majored in it. I did oratory and extemporaneous. and Lincoln Douglas debate in high school. So I spent three, four years.

Starting point is 00:24:19 Wow. I mean, winning competitions and, you know, like, that's, I, so I got an early start. I've always been passionate about performing because I feel like speaking is performing to a high degree. And then, of course, I've over time, you know, taking classes and had trainers and, like, just got, I feel like it's like anything else

Starting point is 00:24:39 that has to be something you hone over time. I do. You know, it's funny, I invest so heavily in my own professional development. I don't think people, like, for me, if I stop that, then I wouldn't be as good anymore, you know, like, you can, in our industry especially. So I'm constantly looking, like, I constantly invest in my own professional development. We do that with our team. Like, that's, it's just a huge thing for us. I love it. And I've talked to, I usually ask this question to people who do give talks because it's something I'm incorporating into my work. And I love it, fascinated by it, a little bit scared by it. And I think that's a good thing because it gets me out

Starting point is 00:25:18 of my comfort zone. But even recently, I had guests say that two of the things they've done to help with their public speaking skills is actually stand-up comedy as well as improv classes. What do you think of that? Absolutely. I think anything that makes you a better performer because you're up there, you have to roll with the punches. I was in the audience for a colleague of mine who was speaking, and he always does the stunt where he offers $20 to someone in the audience or, you know, if they take action. So it's really well done. He's a very good speaker.

Starting point is 00:25:56 And the gentleman was just being, you know, he was just being sort of an offline troll, I guess, and he took it and he tore it and he insisted. Like, he was just being obnoxious. and I was just so, it was amazing to watch my colleague be so poised and handle the situation so well. And so I, and I never faced anything like that. But, you know, things happen. And I think when you're, when you're commanding the attention of so many people, especially in the era of like quick little snippet, like in the Twitter age,

Starting point is 00:26:27 commanding people's attention for whether it's a 45, an hour keynote, whatever it may be. Yeah, I think you have to, things like that great. me help. And like I said, having a theater and like performance background, right, with speech and debate and theater, which is all mixed in high school, I think that was a huge advantage for me. Yeah. Another aspect of your business that you guys help people with is in regards to PR strategy. And you've certainly got a ton of extremely positive PR over the last few years, both your company as well as your personal brand. If you had to distill that down, because I think we could have an entire hour-long podcast

Starting point is 00:27:10 on just this. But if you had to distill that down to a shorter conversation in regards to if somebody came to you and said, like, hey, Shama, I'm just really looking for some help from a PR perspective. I don't, you know, I don't really have an idea of what to do. And I know that's not providing you enough context, but let's say they're running a small business. what are some of the things that you would say to them to help them out?

Starting point is 00:27:36 Yeah, so that's all good questions. You know, I think with press, people don't understand a couple of things. One that you have to keep batting. I don't know how else to explain it, but you have to keep swinging the bat. That's a big thing with press. People think it's a one-off thing. It's not. The other thing is you do need an angle.

Starting point is 00:27:55 You need something of interest. If you have a small business, you can't just say, well, look, look, I've got a small business and I want some press around it. You really have to figure out what's newsworthy about that business, right? And one of the best ways to do this is look at current trends and see how you can tie in what you're doing. So let's just play ball and let's say it's an ice cream shop. Someone owns a small ice cream shop. Well, great.

Starting point is 00:28:25 How about doing, you know, what are the most popular flavors for summer and the most unexpected summer flavor that you see trending. That's exciting. A lot of evening news, flow day, don't cover that. You know, like, the surprising flavor you didn't know was trending this summer. Or if you're getting back, I just read this great story on Twitter about this barber who gives free haircuts to kids. Who read to them?

Starting point is 00:28:49 As long as they read, yeah, there you go. So that's cool. So it's not just about the story, but it's, are you doing something memorable? And it's so easy to do, too, you know? find a passion, tie it together, and then consistently, you always have to, if you build a relationship with the reporters, you constantly have to give them ideas. And it is, it's very much a relationship-driven thing. And creativity, creativity is huge. You know, a book I like is called News Jacking by David Mirman Scott. What's it called again? News jacking. News jacking. Okay. And he's got some great

Starting point is 00:29:22 examples in the book about, you know, how to leverage current events, current trends to push, you know, to push your business, how do you tie that in? Like, for example, there's an example of a company in there that sells, that buys used handbags. And when, you know, Lindsay Lohan's, I think it was a year ago, Lindsay Lohan was in the news for having financial issues. They gave a public announcement saying, hey, Lindsay, we'll buy all your bags. And I'm not saying that's the only way to go about it,

Starting point is 00:29:51 but they got a lot of press for it. And so the idea is to be a little creative and to see how your business can tie into a bigger new story or trend. Yeah, I think that's, I'm fascinated by that as well because you read these stories in ink or who's on the cover of Forbes. And a lot of times I feel like as a reader, you think, well, these are just like journalists who are hustling and they're out there like finding these stories when a lot of times it's the opposite, meaning not that the journalists aren't hustling, but it's that

Starting point is 00:30:20 they're brought stories by publicists or PR people or the stories themselves. and that's part of part of your job, I think, especially if you're running a business is to find a way to shine some positive light so that other people become more aware. Because at the end of the day, I mean, those are the people that you can ultimately help. Right. Absolutely, yeah. It's good. So moving forward a little bit, so I know you have a new book coming out, and I'd love to learn a little bit about what the new book is going to touch on. I believe you mentioned it's around momentum.

Starting point is 00:30:54 Right. So that's the name of the new book, actually, even is Momentum. And that's this idea that I feel like, you know, what the Zen of social media marketing did, which is now going to go into its fourth edition, was provide people a primer for social media. Momentum is really about how do you take your digital marketing efforts to the next level, right? So there's all this noise. So this book is meant to be a filter for that noise so you can extract your own signal, so you can make smart decisions without being overwhelmed.

Starting point is 00:31:21 And we cover things like how important, you know, how to cross-collaborate. How do you go about not just creating content, but curating content? You know, there's five principles even. They're about changeability, for example, and how quickly can you adapt to strategy. So there's the way I write and the way I convey information is always broad, you know, good thesis, strong kind of theoretical, rooted in research, but then I'm a big fan of what's my takeaway. Like, how do I implement this? How do I make it actionable? So, even though, you know, it's going to be a hard copy and definitely written for, I would say, the more intermediate to advanced audience, I think it's going to have, you know, the way I write that there's just a lot of

Starting point is 00:32:07 instant, like, how can I enact this nuggets? I love the sound. I'm looking forward to it. And I have a question in regards to, so I think there's probably a lot of people listening who are first really impressed by what you've been able accomplished at such a young age, as well as let's take it back, Shama, to somebody who is maybe a little bit older than you, so they're in their whatever, mid-30s or so, and they have a good job that they like, pretty good, but they also have kind of an entrepreneurial spirit, and they want to do something, they want to create something, they're not quite sure what it is yet, and they also have responsibilities that they need to pay for, whether they're married or they have a mortgage, things like that.

Starting point is 00:32:53 What advice do you give to those types of people who, like, they have this itch, but they're not really sure how to get to it yet? And I read, I read as I was preparing for our conversation that you've never had a job like that. So maybe this isn't a great question, but I'm curious as if, I'm sure you've had people come up to you with these types of questions and I'd love to hear what you say to them. Yeah. So I think you start small, but I think you feel fast. And that's okay.

Starting point is 00:33:22 So I think you take smaller risks, right? Like there's another great book called, um, forget click, like how to get lucky. Let me see if I can find that title. And it's by this author named Franz. And I actually interviewed him. And there's actually a YouTube video I did with him on how to get lucky. Really? Yeah, yeah, there's actually on Shema TV, there's a how to get lucky in business.

Starting point is 00:33:49 And he's the author of The Click Moment. The Click Moment? The Click Moment. And one of the things he talks about is how to make little bets and how to take small chances. And I think that's important because that gives you confidence and that builds your progress. So it isn't about taking that first idea and making it a million or billion dollar idea. It's not starting small. So you're getting some income going.

Starting point is 00:34:13 you start to kind of feel that sense of like, hey, I can do this. And I honestly, Ryan, if there's one thing I believe, like a philosophy, I absolutely stand by, it's that success breeds success. You really have to take those first few steps. You have to start to feel good. And then, you know, no pun intended, but the momentum that builds from that is tremendous. I love that. That is a great quote that I would take out of this for people to think of when it comes to.

Starting point is 00:34:41 I speak to so many people. like in regards to that question, I just asked you, Shama, that's where they, they get kind of excited over hearing a story like yours and they want to do something, but then they maybe they lose excitement over time because they, they don't take any action or don't, don't really try to make it happen, and then it kind of wanes. And so my whole thinking is, you know, you have to be intentional. You can't let that wane and go do whatever it is. It doesn't mean you have to quit anything. I'm not about that. And, Unless that's what you want to do, I guess.

Starting point is 00:35:15 But it's about taking the small first step, even if it's just starting your blog and getting your thoughts down, that's something that's much better than just simply doing nothing. Yeah, and I think for a lot of people, the goals seem so overwhelming. And honestly, I've been there too, and I do find myself there. So it's not like a cure-all. It's not an instant thing. But, you know, there's a lot that I'm obviously working on my company and brand and so forth. then that passion is great, but then at the end of the day, I'm like, oh, my God, this feels so overwhelming. And often it's in the darkness that these kind of thoughts come, you know, where you're like,

Starting point is 00:35:54 what, you know, how am I even going to get started? But I think one of the things, and it kind of goes back to almost time management and being organized, is breaking a big task into chunks. So, for example, for anybody ever wanting to write a book, the best advice I can ever give you is start with the chapter that's the easiest for you to write. Like, honestly, I mean, people think that you have to write it linearly, you don't. You write the chapter that comes the easiest to you, and then you go from there. And so I feel like, again, the idea is to have these small wins, the small success,

Starting point is 00:36:26 and it really does. You know, you just, then it can balloon into more. But, yeah, I mean, the thing is, if you find yourself that you're just not passionate about something or you're excited and then it's gone, maybe that wasn't the idea, you know, because you do. You do need to have that passion, but also market demand. It's a lot of factors. Yeah, it makes so much sense. I love the takeaway because I think the book writing or just writing in general, it looks like this huge task.

Starting point is 00:36:51 You're like, oh, I don't think I could do it. But really, it's talked to this guy named Joe Sweeney, who wrote a great book called Networking as a Contact Sport. And Joe wrote one-page chapters that he stapled to his will for his kids. And I think the attorney happened to read it and was like, Joe, this should be a real book. You know, and he just, over time, it was over years, he just wrote these one-pagers or what turned out to be more than one-page chapters about life in general. And his slant was in networking. And it became this huge best-selling book when it was originally just meant to kind of help his children out. So you never really know.

Starting point is 00:37:30 But it was a cool story and a cool takeaway that that's how things can happen if you take it one step at a time. Totally. Start small. Start with where you can. Start with what you have. And then again, once you win, you know, once you, that's why you teach kids how to save from a young age, right? Or they tell you to. It's not the idea that they're going to be able to pay off their, you know, pay for their college education by the time they're 18.

Starting point is 00:37:53 It's the right habits. It's the right kind of. And it does. It takes discipline. It takes. And this is, by the way, I hate the idea that someone's going to listen to this and think, man, Ryan and some other. They're just so preachy about this. But that's not the idea because I know we've both been there, Ryan.

Starting point is 00:38:07 I certainly have in terms of, I feel like I have to reset every day. remind myself of these things. So it's not like, oh, I figured this out, check, check, check. But these are lessons I know to be true. And, you know, I'm human. And so I'm constantly also having to remind myself. And also give yourself slack. I feel like when you're in the right mindset,

Starting point is 00:38:28 things flow so much easier than when you're not. So do things in the mindset that you're for. So sometimes on my two dealers, I'll have, you know, write my column for Forbes or, you know, talk to this employee about X, Y, Z. and even though I'll be like, okay, I should write down, write my article. If I'm just, my mind's not there, I can move to the next thing and know that I'll have more success with that thing and come back later for when I feel like I am in the mindset. So I do think in some ways you also have to learn how to make hay when the sun shines. Yeah, I love that quote.

Starting point is 00:38:57 It's a good one. John Lee Dumas shared that with me earlier. That's a great quote. And as far as the preachy aspect of it, I think I also don't want people to think that. However, if there are more people who come away with the little inspiration, from hearing your story and hearing this conversation that I'm okay with some of that too because that's it's about you know hopefully it inspires me to hear these stories I learn so much and I have already on this this conversation that I want to you know keep having this conversation

Starting point is 00:39:25 so I have one more question in regards to really what my show is all about it's called the learning leader show as you know and it's I love leadership I love learning I love being intentional with it every single day it's kind of like the comment You've got to do these things every single day and over time it compounds on one another. But when you hear the phrase learning leader, what do you think of? Is there a person that pops into your mind? Is it a definition or is there a saying? When you hear the phrase learning leader, I love to hear what's in your mind.

Starting point is 00:39:59 You know, it's funny because to me it almost sounds redundant. Not a bad way, but I feel like true leaders are learners. Like that's the only way you can lead is just constantly learning. from your people or from your environment. So it seems like, duh, in the best way possible, in the best way possible. So I feel like if you are a leader of any capacity, then you have to also be a learner. I mean, I think great leaders are also great students. Yeah, I completely agree.

Starting point is 00:40:30 I think the reason why I think of it as being so important, too, is because if you've been around people who maybe they're hoisted into leaders, roles or positions or their bosses somewhere, even thinking of tough things happening in the NFL right now or whatever or any business, some of those people in the leadership positions feel to me like they're not doing that, like they're not taking time to learn, to develop as a leader as a professional. And so that's why it's so important to me to focus on and talk to leaders who are consistently doing that. I think that's a great model.

Starting point is 00:41:13 Good. I appreciate that. And I know we're up against it, but Sean, I really appreciate you investing the time with me here and the great listeners, the Learning Leaders show. I love to continue our dialogue as we both progress on our journeys. And I can't wait to see what's next for you. Thank you so much, Ryan. It's been such a pleasure. Awesome. Thanks, Sean. We'll talk soon. Thanks. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time.

Starting point is 00:41:45 Head over to Learning Leadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on The Learning Leader Show.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 053: Shama Hyder – The Zen Master Of Marketing: Millennial Master Of The Universe

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