The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 054: Geoff Colvin – Talent Is Overrated: Humans Are Underrated

Episode Date: September 14, 2015

Episode 054: Geoff Colvin – Talent Is Overrated: Humans Are Underrated Geoff Colvin is an incredibly interesting person.  He truly understands the importance of an intense focus on continuous improvement.  We are extremely fortunate to have Geoff share his knowledge with us, the loyal listeners of The Learning Leader Show.  Geoff Colvin is an Award-winning thinker, broadcaster, speaker and bestselling author of “Talent Is Overrated” and “Humans Are Underrated.” Geoff obtained a degree in economics from Harvard, and received his MBA from NYU. The thesis of Talent is Overrated is that the greatest achievers succeed through endless "deliberate practice." Colvin characterizes it as "Hitting an eight-iron 300 times with a goal of leaving the ball within 20 feet of the pin 80 percent of the time, continually observing results and making appropriate adjustments, and doing that for hours every day - that's deliberate practice."  Colvin is the brother of singer/songwriter Shawn Colvin.  Shawn is a female most known for her Grammy Winning Single “Sunny Came Home.” Episode 054: Geoff Colvin – Talent Is Overrated: Humans Are Underrated Subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher Radio The Learning Leader Show “Advancing technology has increased employment.” It’s improved human lives.” Some Questions I Ask: What are the common characteristics of high achievers? What are your thoughts on kids “playing up” a level in sports? What are your thoughts on artificial intelligence? Will it take over the world? What are the specific skills needed in order to remain in control of your career? How does your research have an effect on the profession of sales? How do you handle a person who is a “taker” on your team? What does being a learning leader mean to you?  In This Episode, You Will Learn: The critical components of deliberate practice: Pushes you just beyond your current level of ability You’re always adapting to your current level (getting better) Your deliberate practice can be repeated at a high volume to rewire your brain Continual feedback – Need for a mentor and/or a coach “Playing Up” and the power of playing against great competition The importance of empathy, collaborating, and story telling Artificial Intelligence – iRobot vacuum cleaner and more… The profession of sales and strategy Giving and Taking – How to handle behaviors Shawn Colvin – “Sunny Came Home” (Geoff’s sister has won 3 grammy’s!) The importance of taking a complicated message and making it clear “It’s not your natural gifts, but your deliberate practice and focus on constant improvement,” Continue Learning: ·         Go To Geoff’s website: GeoffColvin.com ·         Read: Talent Is Overrated ·         Read: Humans Are Underrated   ·         Follow Geoff on Twitter: @geoffcolvin You may also like these episodes: Episode 001: How To Become A Master Connector With Jayson Gaignard From MasterMind Talks Episode 034: Jimmy Hatch – Shot While Searching For Bowe Bergdahl And Sky Diving With Gabby Giffords Episode 004: How Todd Wagner (and Mark Cuban) Sold Broadcast.com To Yahoo! For $5.7 Billion Episode 010: Shane Snow – How To Accelerate Success Using Smart Cuts Did you enjoy the podcast? This was a jam packed episode full of great content.  Geoff Colvin is leader who is constantly learning in order to help us all live a better life. Who do you know that needs to hear this?  Send them to The Learning Leader Show! Episode edited by the great J Scott Donnell Bio From GeoffColvin.com   Geoff is an Award-winning thinker, broadcaster, speaker and bestselling author of “Talent Is Overrated” and “Humans Are Underrated.” Longtime editor and columnist for FORTUNE. Fortune Magazine Senior Editor at Large, CBS Radio daily commentator, Bestselling author. Colvin obtained a degree in economics from Harvard, and received his MBA from NYU. The thesis of Talent is Overrated is that the greatest achievers succeed through endless "deliberate practice." Colvin characterizes it as "Hitting an eight-iron 300 times with a goal of leaving the ball within 20 feet of the pin 80 percent of the time, continually observing results and making appropriate adjustments, and doing that for hours every day - that's deliberate practice." With Karen Gibbs, Colvin was co-anchor of Wall $treet Week with Fortune on PBS for three years, successor of Louis Rukeyser. He has a daily report "On Business" heard on the CBS Radio Network, where he has made more than 8,000 broadcasts. Colvin is the brother of singer/songwriter Shawn Colvin.  Shawn is a female most known for her Grammy Winning Single “Sunny Came Home.” As a speaker, Geoff has engaged hundreds of audiences around the world, ranging in size from 10 to 10,000. Au diences especially appreciate his remarkable perspective: He has analyzed companies and business leaders worldwide as they confront the largest issues of our time, and has seen what distinguishes the winners from the losers. Each talk is as fresh as that morning’s headlines, and nobody leaves one of Geoff’s sessions thinking the same way.   He is also a skilled on-stage interviewer whose subjects have included Jack Welch, Henry Kissinger, Richard Branson, the Prince of Wales, Bill Gates, Alan Greenspan, Steve Case, Ted Turner, George H.W. Bush, George W. Bush, and many others. He is the regular lead moderator of the Fortune Global Forum, and he serves as moderator for the International Business Leaders Forum in London.

A learning leader is the only real kind of leader. In other words, they aren't all that way. You know, as we all know, there are some people in leadership positions who aren't really interested in learning anymore. They feel that once they've reached where they've reached, well, you know, they must know it. Because otherwise, why would they have gotten the job? The best ones are always learning,

and they know that they've got to do that every day, and they love doing it. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. Hey, and welcome to The Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk, and I love this episode tonight with one of my favorite learning leaders.

It's Jeff Colvin. He's a best-selling author of Talent is Overrated, one of my favorite books. He also has a new one out called Humans Are Underrated. Jeff is also the Fortune Magazine Senior Editor at Large. We got into a number of really interesting topics tonight on the show. A couple of them. We discussed the four specific keys to achieving success in whatever line of work you're in. And I'll give you a hint, having natural talent is not one.

one of them. Also, the importance of having deep human interactions. We talk about artificial intelligence and what can robots do, what can machines do. One thing they can never do is have deep human face-to-face emotional conversations. And we really went there on this episode tonight. I think you'll like that part. And also, why you should always be pushing yourself just beyond your current level of ability. How specifically thinking about that and doing that will make you better on a day-to-day basis. Ladies and gentlemen, I'm extremely excited for you to meet Jeff Colvin. Okay, Jeff, so excited to be with you here on The Learning Leaders Show. I want to get this one started with some umph to it. And I got a question around high achievers. Now, in your line of work,

you have studied, you've written about, you've spent a lot of time around. You've spent a lot of time around, you personally are one of these, you're high achiever, you spend time around those types. What are some of the common characteristics that people who have achieved big things all seem to share? Well, in a way, it's pretty simple. At least it's simple to say, not so simple for some people to do, but it's pretty clear. Above all, what I've observed, and by the way, there's research on this too. First of all, they really want to do it. And I'll explain. in a second why that's particularly important. It seems obvious, but, you know, unless someone is really burning to do something, really has something they love to do or really want to achieve,

it's just not going to happen. And in addition, they absolutely believe that they can do it, that they can make it happen. And I emphasize this because, although it sounds obvious, a lot of people actually don't believe that. What they believe is that they have to have a gift, that they have to have a natural ability to do something. And when they look at the great achievers of this world, whether it's, you know, Tiger Woods or a surgeon or a great pilot or whatever, they think, well, you know, that person came into this world with a natural gift.

Of course they can do it. the great achievers that I see actually don't believe that. They believe that you become great by making yourself great. And then because they deeply want it, they're willing to put themselves through what it takes to be great. And it takes a lot. I'm not giving anything away for free here. It's not easy. But the great news is that if you want to do it, if you believe you can do it,

and you get the right guidance in how to do it, which is another thing they all have in common, then you can do it. And that's what I've seen in these folks over and over. Yeah. You know, Jeff, I'm fascinated by your work. So I'll give you a second, too, to kind of share your history a little bit. But I first became known of you a few years ago, a great leader, mentor of mind. You know, I have regular calls with mentors.

and he said, I have a great book that I want you to read that I think makes a lot of sense for how to be, you know, world class and what you want to do. And it's called Talent is Overrated, Written by this guy named Jeff Colvin, who happens to be you, Jeff. And now here we are. We're talking. And so I, of course, gobbled up that book immediately. And just fascinated by it because, you know, I have a background in athletics. grew up playing all sports, ended up being fortunate to earn a college scholarship to play football, played the position of quarterback, and then was able to play a few years after college and the arena football league.

And so I saw firsthand the difference between some people who were born with talent versus others who you could tell put in the hours and the work. It's like you mentioned the way somebody would go to the driving range and practice, the amount of time it takes. So I'm a massive believer in what you've written about. I'd love for you to take a moment as much time as you need, really, to talk about what you've done, you've accomplished, because we're going to get to the newest book as well, which is called humans are underrated. But as far as dating back a little bit to, I believe it was released in 2010, talent is overrated. Talk a little bit about that and how you came about writing that book and what you're up to as of today.

Yeah, absolutely. The talent book I wrote because I had written an article in Fortune on this general topic of how world-class great performers get to be world-class. And in the research for that article, I discovered the work of several researchers who have actually done a lot of studies, a lot of research into exactly this topic. How do world-class great performers get to be so good? The preeminent researcher is a guy named Anders Erickson, who is a professor at Florida State. He really launched the field 30-some years ago with an extremely important study he did, and he's done many more since then, as have many other researchers. And the findings were very clear. And it's what I was mentioning very fleetingly earlier, that it is not a natural gift,

which is what most people think. Instead, it's not just practice, which is what a lot of people will tell you. It's a very specifically defined activity that he called deliberate practice. And it's not complicated, but it is very specific. And it can be stated very simply. The elements are, one,

it pushes you always just beyond your current level of ability. It doesn't push you way beyond because you can't do that at all. You just get lost. And it doesn't let you operate within your current abilities because then you don't grow. It constantly pushes you just beyond what you can do right now. That's the first thing. The second thing, it's always being adapted to you and your current level of performance. As you get better, your deliberate practice has to change because it has to keep pushing you

just beyond what you can do. The third thing is it can be repeated at high volume. The researchers didn't know it originally, but it turns out that high volume actually causes physical changes in your brain. It rewires your brain. So high repetition is very important. And then the fourth thing is you get continual feedback. You can't get any better unless you know how you're doing. And so that's it. It often works. out that having a mentor, a teacher, a coach is very valuable because they can help you with number two and number four. Number two is constantly adjusting your practice. Somebody who's been around the block who has seen people develop knows what you need to work on next. And number

four is getting the feedback. Getting someone who can observe you and give you an objective of outsiders evaluation of how you're doing is really valuable. And that's why, for example, the best golfers in the world all have teachers because they need someone to fulfill that function for them. So I wrote an article about this for Fortune, and it got a response such as I have never had to any. Look, I've been at Fortune now, don't tell anybody, but 37 years. So, you know, and never in my life have I had.

a response like that one. People told me that they read this article to their kids. Well, you can write an awful lot of articles for fortune. Let me tell you, never have anybody say that they read it to their kids. But this one they were doing that with. And so I realized immediately that there was much more to be said, and that's why I wrote the book. Man, I love it. It's such a already a bunch of notes. So I'm thinking about, number one, pushes you always just beyond your current level of ability. So let me bring it to an example in my life. So my parents, so growing up, like I said, we played sports. And my parents decided for me and my younger brother, AJ, to, they wanted us to play up a grade level. So they realized that we had some ability on the, you know,

sporting fields, whatever we would, basketball, court, baseball, football, whatever it may be. And so we, we, they moved us up a level. And so because they, they wanted us to consciously play against better competition to be, to be pushed. Right. And so I think as a lot of people, they think about, like, they just want their kids to just have immediate success and to enjoy it. Whereas, especially for me, because I was not a bigger kid, it, it taught me how to kind of deal with adversity. and then I improved. And for my younger brother, he was a pretty dominant force and still is.

He currently plays in the National Football League for after nine years with the Green Bay Packers. He now plays for the Cincinnati Bengals for his 10th NFL season. So I think the playing up and being pushed with top-level competition mixed with a ton of reps, some great coaching has helped lead to some successful athletic careers. Ryan, that is such a great example. because your parents were very wise in doing exactly that for exactly that reason, to put you up against competition, training with other guys, you know, who were ahead of you, who would always be pushing you and contrast that with what some parents,

quite a lot of other parents do, which is they try to get their kids to play down a level so that the kids will be bigger and actually have an easier time against the competition. It's just what you say. They want the kid to be immediately successful. But as the examples of you and your brother show, what your parents did was actually a much better thing for producing a high-level performer. I like to say, and this is becoming a more normal term,

maybe with entrepreneurs, that's called playing the long game versus the short game. So some people make decisions. And this kind of happens in business too. And I spoke with a great CEO of New Balance, It's Rob D. Martini, a guy you should probably talk to actually. Should introduce you guys. But anyway, Rob says you got to play the long game.

You got to think long term. And I think that's what my parents thought in that to say, like, we know you could have immediate success playing in your grade level. We've kind of seen the, you know, play T-ball in fifth or when you were five or whatever. But we're looking at playing the long game. We want you to be successful long-term. And some of that deals with handling adversity and being pushed. And I think that that was paramount in having help. helping us achieve some level of success.

I'm sure that it was. And since you have been very successful in athletics, your brother has been very successful, you guys understand all the principles that I talk about in the talent book. Because in the world of sports, especially high-performance sports, all of this stuff is taken for granted. You know, that's the way you live.

and no one really thinks anything of it. It's obvious that that's what you need to do. The striking thing to me is that even though we all kind of know this from our experience with sports, or if we've had experience in music, that's the other field in which everyone immediately understands this. As soon as we get to work, we seem to forget all of it. There are so many workplaces where the idea of deliberate practice and getting better in the way I described is not even considered. Nobody does it.

The idea of taking time away from the actual performance to prepare and practice is rarely or never thought of. And it's a huge missed opportunity. Yeah, I could talk about this aspect of talent and being overrated all day. Jeff, I love it. But you've also, most recently, written a book called Humans Are Underrated. and how I came about this. So I am another visual for you.

I get the Fortune magazine. Bless you. I open it up. Yeah. I open it up. And I see this article and I'm like, ah, it caught my eye. I saw it was written by you. And I obviously devoured that.

And I said, you know what? I would love to talk to Jeff on my podcast. So that's how this kind of came about to too, because after I already read talent was overrated, now I'm seeing this. And so we progress to humans are underrated. What high achievers know. that brilliant machines never will. Talk to me about what this book is about.

Well, it's all about the question. What will people do better than computers? There is so much anxiety about this right now. It's just everywhere. Every time you open a newspaper or turn on the radio or television, somebody is talking about this, robots and other forms of technology taking work that people used to do. It's been, of course, developing for a long time, but it's now a mainstream concern.

What's going to be left for us? What is it that we will ever do better than computers? And what will we be able to do that will earn a decent living for us or for our kids when they're working, a higher standard of living? And people are really getting worried about this. And so that's what I decided to write the book about. as I did the research and thought it through and so forth, it became clear that we shouldn't ask what computers cannot do.

That's what everybody else seems to have done. They've said, well, what is it? Computers just inherently cannot do, because then that's what we'll focus on. Well, the more you look at it, the more you realize, there may be nothing that computers inherently cannot do. Every time we've tried to answer that question, we've turned out to be wrong. There were people who said computers could never play chess at a very high level,

or they could never translate languages very well, or they could never drive a car. And, of course, everyone's proven wrong on those things. Look, the question to ask is, what is that we humans will be compelled to do? even if computers could do them. That's going to lead us to the high value skills. And what you end up finding is that the skills of deep human interaction, the abilities that we developed in our evolutionary past that are as deep in us as anything could be, empathy, collaborating, storytelling, building relationships,

these abilities that take place between two human beings are going to be economically more valuable with every passing day. And I love one of the parts of it I highlighted. It said fear of technological unemployment is as old as technology, and it has always been unfounded. Right. That's quite right. I mean, if you go back to the very beginning of the Industrial Revolution, people were terrified that these amazing new machines that were being invented back then were going to throw people out of work and everybody would be unemployed and poor and starve and so forth.

And that's why the Luddites were just one famous example, destroying the power looms that were being built because they put hand weavers out of business. Well, the truth is that technology has always eliminated some job. But it has also created new jobs. And the new jobs have been better, more productive than the old jobs. So the people who did them got paid more, which means they spent more, creating more demand. And you put it all together and you look at an overall economy across time. It's clear that advancing technology has increased employment and has raised living standards spectacularly.

There is nothing in human history that comes close to technology for improving the material lives of human beings. So that's always the way it's been up till now. The striking thing now is that for the first time, for the first time ever, mainstream economists and mainstream technologists are saying maybe that 250-year trend. is changing. Maybe technology is reaching a point where for the first time ever it will eliminate more jobs than it creates. Maybe this idea that technology actually could cause wide unemployment is coming true. And that is upsetting a lot of people.

It seems like you mentioned this, that AI, artificial intelligence, there is a just, it's all over the place now and everything I read as far as people thinking almost like I think of like the movie Terminator 2 or something where like the machines take over the world like this is very who was it man I hate that I forgot the name but a

very well known person recently said that is one of their biggest fears oh yeah was it Elon it wasn't Elon Musk I don't remember it was Elon Musk Elon Musk has said that Stephen Hawking the brilliant to British physicist has said that

Bill Gates has said some things about that. He's worried about it too. And, you know, these are not crazy people. These are incredibly intelligent, successful people. And I think we have to pay attention to them. Yeah, that's why when I read about those guys, I'm like, okay, this is interesting. So, like, I think of, I'm trying to, like, make it practical now.

So, for example, Uber is something that has just disrupted the whole, whether it's the cab industry or people driving. general. So could Uber then be disrupted by self-driving cars or something like that? They just some things I think about. You know what I mean? Right. And so Uber's a good example because, yes, it is disrupting the old taxi industry, but they understand perfectly well that self-driving cars are the future. And so what they are doing is investing enormously in self-driving car technology. And they have made major partnerships with Carnegie Mellon University on computer science for mapping and autonomous technology. They just announced another partnership with University of Arizona Optical School,

which is the place you go, apparently, for the very top research on optics, because, you know, cars need to have incredibly good eyes if they're going to be self-driving. So Uber has made no secret of the fact that its objective is to eliminate the driver. You know, Travis Kalanek, the founder said, you know, one reason the rides in an Uber car cost as much as they do is you're paying for the dude in the front, as he says. Well, he needs, he wants to get rid of the dude in the front. And he will. One of the good things about Uber, though, and just like, and I would say another, like just like Airbnb, Uber doesn't own any cars. Right.

And Airbnb doesn't own any properties, right? They're worth billions and billions of dollars without owning anything. I didn't think they would want to own anything. I don't think Airbnb wants to own property. I don't think Uber wants to own the cars or do they. No, I'm sure they don't want to own the cars. You're right. It's a brilliant business model in each case because they have virtually no assets.

It takes very little capital and it makes a huge amount of money. I don't think Uber wants to own the cars. I think they just want to develop the cars and I don't know what their model is going to be. Maybe they will sell the cars or lease the cars to the drivers or something. But the question that you end up thinking about is, what does it mean for the drivers? Right. Whether they're taxi drivers or today's Uber drivers. And what you see is that's a job where the skills of deep human interaction are not especially important.

They do make a difference, but what the driver is doing mostly is pretty mechanical. The most important thing the driver is doing is just driving that car from point A to point B. Well, any job that doesn't really demand skills of deep human interaction like driver is probably going away. And everybody should look at their own job and ask this question. Does it demand significant skills of human interaction? And if the answer is no, then that job is probably going away because sooner or later technology is going to do it better. And this is a new way to think about employment. We used to think about skills that were kind of classroom textbook skills, you know, engineering or accounting or whatever.

Well, those are still important. but those are not going to be the high value skills that enable some people to make good livings while others don't. It's like the I-Robot. People probably always thought you've got to either have to clean your own house or if you don't do that, you're going to have to hire somebody else to vacuum for you if you don't particularly like doing that. Well, not anymore. Which shows up on these wedding registries now for everybody. It's the little the robot.

The thing that could sweep the floor for you or vacuum your carpet for you. Yeah, that's exactly right. And, you know, it's another perfect example. There's, you know, in scrubbing the floor or vacuuming the carpet, there's little or no human interaction. Right. Well, it's going to disappear. And there are others being developed. Somebody said, well, look, nobody's ever developed a robot that can unload the dishwasher.

Well, I did some research into it. The answer is, yeah, actually. somebody has. It's a research project now at a university in Germany, but I need to get one of those, man. That's that's my job. I need to get one of those. It's not ready yet, but you know, it will be. Yeah. No, it's, it's interesting to look at these things. So let's let's now relate it to, okay, let's just use an example. So there is a 38-year-old mom of two. Yes. Who is married, has a mortgage. She works in a cubicle. There is a little bit of human interaction in her job, but maybe not a lot. Just there's some, you know. And she's listening to this podcast and she's saying, okay,

Jeff is really interesting. He brings up some good points. But what does this mean for me? What can I specifically do to make sure that I keep progressing to make sure that I don't get my job taken away by some sort of robot or some sort of artificial intelligence? So let's relate it back to that. Great question and great example. I would say to her, I have good news and bad news for you. The bad news is that since your job sounds as if it doesn't involve any significant human interaction, you have to prepare for it to disappear. Sooner or later, it's going to be done by a robot.

I obviously have no idea what the job is, but whatever, if it doesn't involve significant human interaction, the odds are pretty good that sooner or later is going to be done faster, cheaper, and better by technology. That's the bad news. The good news is you're a woman. And the research shows very clearly that when it comes to these skills that I'm talking about, empathy, the ability to discern what somebody else is thinking or feeling and to respond in some appropriate way. Social sensitivity, to be able to look into someone's eyes and know that they want to speak up but they just haven't been doing it or to know that they approve or disapprove of what

somebody else is saying. Collaborating, telling stories, building relationships, bonding. The research is very clear that these, which I believe are the high value skills of the evolving economy, on average, women are better at them than men. And like I say, there's a lot of research on this, but do we need the research? Don't we all know this already from our own life experience? And so what I would say to her is, make sure, you know, take an opportunity or look for opportunities to use your skills of human interaction. See if you can use them in your job,

meaning when you're talking to other people or talking to superiors, give them your perspective, which may be different from the perspective that they normally talk about at work or that they normally hear. And if that just isn't relevant, then look for other work

in jobs that really depend on human interaction and you're going to do better that way. This is really interesting. So a lot of things pop up in my mind now. So when I think of, I think of a couple different industries or professions, so to speak. So I think of salespeople. I am, I've been in sales for 10 years or some way, shape, or form. I've also been in strategy and strategic type roles as a more recently of leadership position. So salespeople, I think, to me, that profession needs that human interaction.

Right. Now, the difference in selling now is that people know a lot more. The seller can't teach the buyer everything. The buyer can go on the internet and learn whether if they're buying a car or they're buying whatever, they can go online and learn a lot. So what do you think about the profession of sales, since so much information is out there on just about anything you can buy, is that one where you're going to? you believe that more of it can be done from an e-commerce commerce perspective or as relationship

building like kind of the old way or maybe the current way where you know you develop the relationships and people buy from people they like or what are your thoughts on that? It's a great example because what we see happening is it's dividing that that profession is bifurcating into those two different kinds of sales. At one end is just what you're describing. conditions where the truth is the buyer can find out everything. Okay, there are no secrets anymore. And so that kind of sales is disappearing. I mean, salespeople are disappearing.

So, for example, Google now has more ad revenue than the entire U.S. magazine industry. And all of that ad revenue on Google. as you probably know, is sold without human beings. Really? It's all just automated. It's an auction. They don't, yeah, I mean, for the most part, I shouldn't say 100%, but for the most part, they don't have salespeople.

It's all done by technology. In fact, the number of people in the U.S. advertising industry has shrunk dramatically over the last 10 years because there were all kinds of people involved in ad sales who don't need to be in it anymore. It's just done by computers. And even there's even a term for, I mean, in my world, in the magazine world, it's called programmatic buying. And programmatic is a fancy sounding word that just means it's done by computer. Don't need people anymore.

So sales of that kind, the salesperson's job is disappearing, and in many cases has already disappeared. The other side of it is somebody who is buying. a $10 million power turbine from General Electric or Zemans or something like that. That's not going to be done by computer. That's going to be done because it is a complicated sale in person. And it's going to take months or years to make the sale, and it's going to be based on relationship. And the salesperson who can look into the other person's eyes,

who can observe his. body language, are his arms crossed or aren't they? Is he looking right at you or not? The person who has those skills is going to be more valuable than ever before. What about, yeah, I completely agree on that aspect of it because they're from a complexity standpoint. If there is complexity to it, then you need the salesperson to do a couple of things. One, develop a great relationship, but then educate challenge even a little bit. I think the best ones are challengers and help them be more of a consultant there. And obviously you're going to steer them to the product you're selling.

But I think they're going to be doing those types of behaviors. Now, how about these types of roles in big companies that are analysts slash strategy roles where they're analyzing the market, they're coming up with a strategy, they're doing these types of behaviors on a daily basis where it involves thinking, but not necessarily a ton of human interaction? What about roles like that? In roles like that, what we are seeing increasingly is that the human interaction involved is on teams within the business. In other words, nobody does this by themselves. They don't have a really smart person sit in a room and think up the strategy. It's always groups or teams working on it together.

And the findings on what makes a team effective are absolutely stunning. And it's not what anybody thinks. It's not what most people think. What the researchers have found is it has very little to do with the average IQ of the people on the team. It has absolutely nothing to do with the IQ of the highest IQ person on the team. It doesn't even have to do with the cohesion or motivation or satisfaction of the team or even the leadership of the team. What determines the effectiveness of the team above all is the average social sensitivity of the team members. And that means their ability to sense what the other members of the team are thinking or feeling.

nobody dominates the conversation. There are no blowhards on the team. Everybody contributes. And because everybody on a good team has a lot of this social sensitivity, they can quickly figure out what the group as a whole thinks about any given idea. Without having to hold a vote or do anything formal. They can just, you know, they talk about it and people give their, you know, they do. these little micro expressions of saying, yeah, uh-huh, or what? And people pick up on that. They take turns, they get a lot of ideas on the table, talk about them, and they quickly form consensus on what they think are the good and bad ideas. They do one other thing also, by the way, which the research shows. They spend a lot of their time outside the team, interacting with people having nothing to do with the team or the.

the company just out there in the world. In other words, they're out getting new ideas that not everybody else is getting. And then they come back and when they get back in the team, they start talking about some of these things. Well, a team made up of people who are like that is enormously effective. When it comes to these really important things of strategy and so forth, that's how skills of human interaction become critical. critical to success. That is a really interesting point, Jeff, but I have a, it elicits a lot of thoughts in my mind. And so one, I love it.

I think it's so great, but it, and I always go back to this because I'm a huge Adam Grant fan in the book, I'm taking about givers. And so, me too. What you're describing is a team of, of givers. Yes. And my question, not to be cynical, but my question is, is how realistic is that if you're going to have a group of eight people? Because I think everyone listening has probably been a part of a team where there certainly is a portion of that team that is exactly how you're describing what a great team does. So what do you do?

So let's be practical here. What do you do? If you're placed on that team, you're not the boss. You're just one of the people on the team. and you do have, you know, a few members of the team that are exactly as you described. They're great. They're givers. They're thinking of ideas. They're not judging. They're simply trying to help and their input's good. But if that's mixed in with people who want to get credit, who want to talk constantly, who want to make sure that they're the one that the light's shining on if it goes well. But then if it goes bad, they want to make sure that they're not blamed. Like, what do you do when you have one or two of those mixed in with a group?

and a team that you're on where you ultimately can't, you can't make a firing type decision, you're just a member of the team. Yeah, if you, in that situation, there is actually not much you can do. It's deflating, man. It's really unfortunate. All you can do is try to, you know,

leave and get on another team. Or, I mean, you can, you know, obviously depending on the dynamics in the situation, you may be able to talk to someone privately and see if you could get those people changed. But as you say, we're assuming here that you don't have the authority just to do it yourself. But you're right. We've all been on teams like that.

There are plenty of totally dysfunctional teams that, you know, where the total is clearly less than the sum of the parts. And, you know, they're awful. And the only way to avoid them really is to have enlightened management. You know, the leaders have to be willing to, you know, choose the right people. But having chosen and get rid of the wrong people, and that is something that is just critically important. But once that's done, then let the team operate. So, you know, but for someone in the position you just describe, you know, in the hypothetical situation that you describe, the hard reality is there is, there is no obvious answer.

You know, there really isn't other than to get off. Mm-hmm. Yeah. No, it makes a lot of sense. And I know that's a tough question because, but I think everybody has been in that situation. Everybody's been there. We've all been there.

I got a question for you because I love the way you think. And I think you go about it and the right way to really question things and to challenge it and to, research. So when you meet somebody for the first time, and maybe somebody's made an introduction for you and you're saying, okay, I really want to get to know this person, what are some questions that you ask, let's assume it's a leader of some type of business. So what are some questions you ask that leader to deeply understand the way they think? What are some of the things you say? I want to dig in there. Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I'll tell you, one thing I've learned

in talking to leaders especially, is just to ask, what are the big issues on your mind right now? Asking it that way, they love to respond to that question. And it doesn't put them on the defensive. In other words, sometimes people want to ask, what keeps you up at night? And I found that that is not such a great question because leaders, especially business leaders, are afraid that they'll be divulging weaknesses in the business or something like that. And so they feel on the defensive right away and they don't like to answer. But if you just say, what are the big issues on your mind right now?

They generally love to get going on that. And so they start talking and they start telling you about this and that. And what I like to do then is just listen as carefully as I can and ask follow-up questions. just ask what comes out of what they're saying. And in particular, I often like to turn the conversation to the human issues. The issues they face having to do with the people who work with them, who work for them. Sometimes it's specific people. Sometimes we're talking about, you know, in general, attracting and keeping good people.

But what I've found over and over is that. that those are the issues that are typically the most critical for an organization. And what I've also found is that if you really talk to a leader, a CEO, and they're speaking candidly, they will almost always tell you that what they regret, as they look back, is not having acted on human issues soon enough. They will always tell you that what they really regret in hindsight is that they let bad situations fester too long when they could and should have fixed them.

And I don't expect them to tell me all about that first thing. But to get them talking about the human issues, the human capital issues, and the talent issues, that really starts to reveal what kind of person you're dealing with. Bad news does not get better with age. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Learned that a while ago, the hard way. Well, we all learn it the hard way. And in fact, there's a theory that none of us learn anything except the hard way.

Great point. But in any case, yeah, you're so right. Yeah. By the way, as I was preparing for this, I didn't realize this until I was digging in more research. Your sister won a Grammy for the song named Sean Colvin for the song Sunny came home. Yeah. Sean has won three Grammys, actually. Wow. Yeah. That's incredible. Isn't that incredible? Yeah. So here you are, best-selling author, economics degree from Harvard, MBA from NYU. I know you don't talk about it, but that's your background. Yeah. Incredible books, fortune. And then your sales.

sister has an incredible talent and something completely different. I mean, what's the family life like with you guys? Well, I mean, it was, you know, as I think back, I mean, what's it like now? It's fantastic. Sean lives down in Austin. And, you know, she loves Austin and Austin loves her. And, you know, obviously a big music town. So it's a great place to be.

You know, she is constantly out to touring. You know, she's just, she has. as so many fans all around the country and around the world. And so, you know, I'm down there a few times a year because all my other sister lives there and our mother lives there. Wow. So we like to go down and get together. And now everybody's kind of humming that song, Sunny Gahom, where we all remember that one.

I love it. Yeah, it was a huge hit. Yeah. And yeah, she, and like I said, she has won a total of three. So it's been enormously successful. Wow, that's really cool. Yeah, I just thought I thought I had to bring that up because I, As I was doing my research, I'm like, wow, that's, that's really neat.

It's a family that has figured it out. It's pretty neat. So, Jeff, I have one more question. And I, you know, we could, I could talk to you for hours. And I'd love to talk again, man, and do this again. But this question is around this podcast, my show, the Learning Leaders Show. I love studying and learning things about the art and science of leadership. I think it's absolutely a learned.

skill. I was born. I currently still am an introvert for sure. And I've had to deliberately try to do things to get outside of my comfort zone to especially be in leadership positions on playing football, the position of quarterback and now in the business world. And so that's why the show is called what it is, a learning leader show. It's all about finding ways to get better, to improve, to study and learn from others and great people like yourself. So when you hear that phrase, Jeff, what's the first thing that pops into your mind? Is it a person, a definition, a saying? What is it when you hear the phrase learning leader?

Well, the first thing that pops into my mind, I have to tell you is that a learning leader is the only real kind of leader. In other words, they aren't all that way. As we all know, there are some people in leadership positions who aren't really interested in learning anymore. They feel that once they've reached where they've reached, well, you know, they must know it. Because otherwise, why would they have gotten the job? The best ones are always learning, and they know that they've got to do that every day,

and they love doing it. There's a great expression I have heard. I was talking once to Larry Bossidy, who was a very high executive at General Electric for years. Then he left to become, CEO of what was then called Allied Signal, now it's called Honeywell, and just one of the great CEOs of the last many decades, and also traveling around the way I do, I've encountered people in every kind of business all around the country who at one time or another worked for him

and said that they benefited enormously. And I've asked him, how do you spot developing leaders? who are going to succeed versus those whom you can tell are not going to succeed. And he said, the way I do it is,

the ones who are not going to make it don't grow, they swell. And it's exactly the point we were talking about. The real leaders are interested in growing. the unsuccessful ones are just interested in expanding themselves in a way that makes them look bigger and more important and they're more self-important and so forth. I'm sure you've discovered this and that's really something it's all about. Yeah, no, that's a great answer.

I love the example and a story to go along with it. I love it. Again, Jeff, I really appreciate your investment with me and this podcast. I'm just so grateful. Where can everyone go to find you online? Yeah. Thank you for asking. A couple things.

One, you can go to my website, which is jeffcalvin.com, but as you have to point out, on audio, Jeff is spelled G-E-O-F. So it's that kind of jeffcalvin.com. Also, since we're talking about leadership, and this podcast is all about leadership, I should plug the newsletter that I produce every day for Fortune, which is all about leadership, and it's called PowerSheet. So if anybody just goes to Fortune.com and looks for the newsletters, they'll see the one called PowerSheet, and all you have to do is subscribe,

and it'll be in your inbox every morning, and it's all about leadership. Perfect, boom, and I'd urge everyone. The talent is overrated, as well as humans are underrated, both books by Jeff, and read them. worth it. I can't put any more simple than that. It's worth it. You know, people know, I'm a big reader, but these are definitely ones I would say go out and read and it's cool. Now you can you can listen to things you expound upon in a little bit and then see it in print.

It's pretty neat. So thank you again, Jeff, for being here. And let's definitely keep this, our dialogue rolling. I'd love to. Thanks, Brian. All right. Thanks so much, Jeff. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to learningleadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again and we'll see you next time on the Learning Leader Show.