The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 057: Turney Duff – Wall Street, Addiction, Rehab, Best-Selling Author, TV Show Consultant

Episode Date: September 24, 2015

Episode 057: Turney Duff – Wall Street, Addiction, Rehab, Best-Selling Author, TV Show Consultant This episode different from the normal Learning Leader Show episode…  Turney contacted me via my website (the contact form www.LearningLeader.com) after he saw the John LeFevre episode published.  He mentioned that he was a fellow Ohio University Bobcat and he had followed my football career.  From this common bond, we developed a friendship and I thought it would be a great idea to record an episode together.  I’m really glad we did it! Best-selling author Bethany McLean said it best: “Turney Duff is a natural storyteller, and his tale of how a naive kid from Maine traded in L.L. Bean for Armani and got sucked into the seamy side of Wall Street is almost impossible to put down. The book is by turns hilarious, harrowing, maddening, and illuminating. After this debut, the smart money will be on Duff.” “The Buy Side” is now on Amazon's 2013 Best Books of the Year: Business & Investing Episode 057: Turney Duff – Wall Street, Addiction, Rehab, Best-Selling Author, TV Show Consultant Subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher Radio   The Learning Leader Show “I wanted to put good karma in the universe.” – Turney Duff, describing why he originally reached out to Brian Koppelman. Some Questions I Ask: What one common characteristic do all high achievers leaders share? How did you get the job working with Brian Koppelman on the TV show Billions? What is a character study and what was it like doing them with Damian Lewis (star of Homeland and now Billions)? How have you discussed your past issues with drugs and alcohol with your daughter? Do you fear relapsing? What is the day to day life of someone on Wall Street? In This Episode, You Will Learn: How a Google alert help our paths cross The details behind filming a TV show and what goes into it How Turney was hired to consult on the TV show Billions How Turney wrote his book, “The Buy Side” and what it’s all about The phone call that changed his life His struggles with addiction to drugs and alcohol His journey of sobriety and how great he is doing right now  “Serenity can be sustained, happiness cannot.  My goal is serenity.” – Turney Duff Continue Learning Read:  The Buy Side Go To: TurneyDuff.com Follow Turney on Twitter: @turneyduff You may also like these episodes: Episode 001: How To Become A Master Connector With Jayson Gaignard From MasterMind Talks Episode 044: John LeFevre – @GSElevator: This Episode Might Offend You Episode 004: How Todd Wagner (and Mark Cuban) Sold Broadcast.com To Yahoo! For $5.7 Billion Episode 010: Shane Snow – How To Accelerate Success Using Smart Cuts Did you enjoy the podcast? This was a jam packed episode full of great content.  David Marquet is leader who is constantly learning in order to help us all live a better life.  He also strives to constantly help others. Who do you know that needs to hear this?  Send them to The Learning Leader Show! Episode edited by the great J Scott Donnell Picture from hitc.com Bio From TurneyDuff.com The Buy Side, by former Galleon Group trader Turney Duff, portrays an after-hours Wall Street culture where drugs and sex are rampant and billions in trading commissions flow to those who dangle the most enticements. A remarkable writing debut, filled with indelible moments, The Buy Side shows as no book ever has the rewards – and dizzying temptations – of making a living on the Street. Growing up in the 1980’s Turney Duff was your average kid from Kennebunk, Maine, eager to expand his horizons. After trying – and failing – to land a job as a journalist, he secured a trainee position at Morgan Stanley and got his first feel for the pecking order that exists in the trading pits. Those on the “buy side,” the traders who make large bets on whether a stock will rise or fall, are the “alphas” and those on the “sell side,” the brokers who handle their business, are eager to please. How eager to please was brought home stunningly to Turney in 1999 when he arrived at the Galleon Group, a colossal hedge-fund management firm run by secretive founder Raj Rajaratnam. Finally in a position to trade on his own, Turney was encouraged to socialize with the sell side and siphon from his new broker friends as much information as possible. Soon he was not just vacuuming up valuable tips but also being lured into a variety of hedonistic pursuits. Naïve enough to believe he could keep up the lifestyle without paying a price, he managed to keep an eye on his buy-and-sell charts and, meanwhile, pondered the strange goings on at Galleon, where tens of millions were being made each week in sometimes mysterious ways. At his next positions, at Argus Partners and J.L. Berkowitz, Turney climbed to even higher heights – and, as it turned out, plummeted to even lower depths – as, by day, he solidified his reputation as one of the Street’s most powerful healthcare traders, and by night, he blazed a path through the city’s nightclubs, showing off his social genius and voraciously inhaling any drug that would fill the void he felt inside. A mesmerizingly immersive journey through Wall Street’s first millennial decade, and a poignant self-portrait by a young man who surely would have destroyed himself were it not for his decision to walk away from a seven-figure annual income, The Buy Side is one of the best coming-of-age-on-the-Street books ever written.

I quickly kind of developed this persona of being, you know, the fun guy. And people wanted to go out with me. And a couple of years after being in New York, you know, I had people coming up to me saying, hey, Ternie, you know, I need a reservation of this restaurant or, hey, I need to get into this club. And I had started to develop those relationships. And I was able to kind of put people in contact with the right people. And it just kind of started building on itself. Are leaders born or are they made?

Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. Hey, and welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk, another fascinating featured leader tonight. It's with New York Times bestselling author, Turney. Duff. Turney is also an Ohio University graduate like me.

He's a contributor to CNBC. He consults on the TV show Billions, which is written by, co-written by Brian Coppillman, who runs also one of my favorite podcasts called The Moment. Turney is really a fascinating guy. On our conversation tonight, we got into a number of topics. A couple of them were. We discussed the really interesting story of how we met and really, the cool part of having a podcast and how it can lead from guest to guest.

Turney actually listened to a previous episode, mine with John Lefebv, and contact me via my contact form on learning leader.com, and we got into talking about our shared background at going to Ohio University, and we go much deeper in the episode on that part. We also talked about the TV making process. How does a pilot get made? Who picks it up? Who pays for it? How does it work then to get the rest of the episodes created. And then we went really deep on some of his struggles with drugs and alcohol. What led up to that, some of the culture on Wall Street, and then how he overcame that, specifically around how does he speak with his daughter around some of his struggles and the teaching moments he has

with her? I really enjoyed some of the raw emotion we got into because some of the things we talked about, frankly, he made really poor choices. But he owns up to that. He's learned from it and he's gotten to a point of serenity, and I think you'll love the definition of that towards the end of the episode. Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, it's Turney Duff. All right, Turney, excited to be here with you on The Learning Leader Show, man. Thank you for having me. Of course. And I got a quick question to get us kicked off. And that's around high achievers, people who have done big things. And you've been fortunate to have spent a lot of time around people who have achieved really big things in a number of different industries.

And I would love to know from you, what are some of the common characteristics you've found in those people? You know, that's an interesting question because, you know, I've been surrounded by, you know, plenty of successful Wall Street people. But I don't think that's kind of the mold. And when you take a bigger scope and kind of look across all sort of industries, you know, the most common trait, I believe, And it sounds a little cliche, but, you know, there's these charismatic people that you come across and they make you feel like you're the most important person in the world, you know, no matter who you are. And, you know, I've come across plenty of those people. And I don't know, you know, I don't think you can bottle it and, you know, repackage it and sell it to the public. But there's this sort of quality that connects from, you know, person to person.

And I believe that if you can treat all people sort of equally and make everyone feel, you know, a little bit special, you get so much more out of everyone around you. And I guess that leads me to my next thought. The most successful people that I have met surround themselves with great people. Yes, there's a lot of ego and a lot of like, you know, I'm the leader and I did this and I did that and I make the decisions. But the really successful ones are good at surrounding themselves with the right people. Absolutely. I think of John Corcoran, a guest I had on earlier, a previous on the show, and he worked for President Bill Clinton. And he said he had that incredible charm, slash.

charisma when it came to literally he could look people in the eye and made them feel like they're the only person in the world and would in his issue the reason why he was late to a lot of meetings apparently was that he would stop and talk to people but ask genuine questions and he genuinely cared and then would follow up with them to make sure whatever questions or concerns they had he could hopefully help fix and it's just really interesting quality and that's kind of led him to what where he is now Yeah, no, definitely. And I think one of the key things that you said is listening. And I think there's a huge difference, you know, when you're talking to whether it's your friend or your girlfriend or your wife or your husband or whatever, and they're like, yeah, I hear you. And I'm like, there's a difference between hearing and listening. Just because you heard me doesn't mean you're listening. And I think the distinction, very, very successful people, they listen. They don't hear. They listen. Yeah, such an important quality that I think people, it's an underrated skill because people

is like, oh yeah, yeah, I listen and listen. But in actuality, the best ones seem to do it and the other ones, the ones who aren't successful don't. So, Tony, I want to take a step back and to tell a quick story about how we met and just really about why this podcast to me is one of the really cool things about it. So I released the John Lefeb episode, and I'm sitting there writing the show notes for or trying to at least. And so when I write show notes for all my episodes, usually they take me quite a bit of time.

And I do some research. I'm all over the internet looking for interesting things, facts about the person that I can put on my website, learning leader.com. And I came across attorney, you, writing about John Lefebv. And I'm like, okay, let me, how can I rephrase this or paraphrase what you're writing? And I can't, like 30, 40 minutes later, after I had failed miserably, I think, thought, you know what, I'm just going to copy and paste and cite it and give you full credit. And so that's what, if you go to my website, that's what it is.

And so what happens is your name, I guess it popped up on a Google Alert. Is that how you found it? Popped up on a Google Alert. And then I get an email on the contact form on my website from you saying, hey, man, you know, we're both from the same school. And I watched you play. And I thought, wow, that's a really cool way to meet somebody. I'll let you tell your side of the story. but it's pretty neat the way we've come in contact with each other.

Yeah, no, it was pretty funny because, yeah, a Google Alert popped up, and I was like, all right, let me click on this, and I started reading it, and your name sounded familiar, but I was like, you know, I'm sure there's plenty of Ryan Hawks out there. Maybe not, but so I'm reading, and then I'm like, wait a minute. I'm like, this dude, this dude played quarterback at Ohio University. I'm like, I got to reach out to him. And so, you know, I was like, hell with it. I'm just going to send him an email.

But it was funny because your response almost sounded apologetic that you used my stuff. And I was like, oh, God, I'm like, that's not why I was reaching out. Like, I could care less. I mean, it actually, you know, it plugged my article at CNBC. So, and then, you know, we continue the conversation over email back and forth. And it turns out, you know, we know a few people in common. And, you know, it was pretty funny. Yeah, it's just weird how people meet and the things that happen.

And that's why I've said there's a lot of neat things that have happened because of this podcast and just meeting. I think one of the coolest parts for me is how I've become in contact with so many people in all different walks of life that have their own interesting journeys. And that's why I was like, you know what, man, we're going back and forth. And you're like, I wish you would have had this when my book came out. I'm like, hey, let's just do it anyway. Why not? I think it would be interesting conversations we could talk about it. You know what I think is probably, and I know I'm not flipping this interview around,

but what I think is probably interesting from your perspective or your seat is you probably have this one group over here who are people you would love to get on the show. And then there's probably this second group who want to get on the show. And it must be this sort of like, you know, kind of tug of war. It must be kind of interesting. You know, I'm glad you brought that up. That's a really good point. because it's definitely true. And so when I started, I made a list of 100 to 150 people,

and that list is now expanded to a few hundred of people that I wanted. But once you, as you know, once you start getting a little bit of notoriety or there's some success, then you have people reaching out to you. And then also, I didn't even realize this job existed. So there are people now, and you probably have seen this, that will email you because they've been hired by others to get them on radio shows, TV, podcast, kind of like PR people. And so then you're kind of sifting through these to say, who do I want to have on?

Because to me, Terny, like, I'll tell you, the quality of the guest is everything for me. Like, I, if there's not going to be quality brought, I don't really want to do it. You know, I don't think it's worth the time of my guess. You know, I asked them to invest 40, 30, 40, 50 minutes of their time. I want to make sure they're getting a great return on that investment. Of course. there's a bunch of quality brought. So it's really interesting the way it works.

And I also want to be respectful of people like you know, the guests, because if you're going to invest your time, then I want to make sure you get something out of it too. So it's really an interesting space, but I love it. And I think it's really neat to have people reach out because some of the guests I've had on. It's because their people have reached out to me. I don't always go into the details of how we met, but in your case, I did because I thought it was pretty cool.

But even if they do have a PR person or somebody, I'm okay with it. I think those PR people sometimes do really good work and can help others get their name out a little bit, you know? Yeah, definitely. So let's talk about some of the stuff you've done, man. So let's start actually currently because, you know, we have another mutual person in common. Brian Coppola. So Brian does a number of things.

He wrote Rounders, which is one of my all-time favorite movies, literally in my top three of... It was on last night and I got sucked in. Oh, I always. On Showtime, ironically. Perfect. So now, Brian, who... who, you know, let me tell a quick story about Brian. So my younger brother, AJ, does a podcast too, and it was before I even started mine.

And we really wanted Brian on his show. And one of the things I helped my brother with was getting guest because I could, you know, sometimes write compelling emails. And so I sent Brian a cold email and he responded like within a day. And he was like, wow, it's really cool. Here's my number. Give me a call. And I was like, what? Like I never get that response.

Never. I mean, especially if somebody like him. I was like, really? So I'm like, well, all right. So I called him immediately. And he answered. And we talked for like 45 minutes about a lot of things, a number of different areas when it comes to everything he's done. I couldn't help but talk about rounders.

I mean, it was just one of those out-of-body experiences in most words. Like, this is one of my favorite movies. And I'm talking to the guy who wrote it. But you try to act, you don't try to act cool, but you try to act like, okay, don't just go crazy. Can I interrupt you one second? So when I was talking to him about, rounders. My big question was, I was like, all right, do you, I'm like, do you really think KGB would kill Matt Damon's character at the end? And they didn't give me a straight response, but, you know,

we had a good time about it. So I didn't mean to cut you off. It's awesome. No, I think it's cool, because now you and Brian are working together on the new show Billions, which I think people have probably seen the trailer. If not, it's going to be on Showtime. But I'd love to hear your side of from the work you're doing now on Billions as well as with Brian and the crew. Sure. So I actually, I work for him. So I'm working with him, but I'm working for him. Interestingly, so they have a show coming out in January of 2016 called Billions. It is set in sort of the high stakes world of high finance and downtown, you know, city, city hall type story. And it's a little bit of a cat and mouse. But interestingly, I wrote a book that published in 2013. And it was immediately,

optioned by Sony. And, you know, Sony was kind of putting a team together, and it took, you know, many, many months. And so by the end of 2013, the beginning of 2014, it seemed to be that there was sort of a three horse race. And there was a show Billions. There was my book, The By Side, and Jordan Belfort had talked about maybe doing a television series after the Wolf of Wall Street. And it seemed like there was this horse race going on. And, and, and, and, and, And I sort of reached out to Brian just as sort of, you know, putting good karma into the universe. And we actually got together and we talked about the hedge fund Wall Street World a little bit. And, you know, because obviously I had a perspective that they did, him and his writing partner, David Levine.

And it kind of ended there. And, you know, the horse race continued. And Showtime ended up buying or picking up the series. and the by side, my book, kind of, it didn't go away, but, you know, Sony, you know, went out and pitched, I don't know, maybe five, five networks. And every network said, you know, we love the pitch, but we're concerned about this show, billions coming out. And so, you know, Sony just kind of took a step back and wanted to see how the whole thing played out. And I kind of thought it was over. So by December of 2014, I'm sitting on my couch.

I'm like trying to get a quick nap before my daughter gets off the school bus. And my phone rings and it's a number I don't recognize and I pick it up. And I'm like, hello. And he's like, hey, turny, this is Brian Coppulman. You know, we met, you know, six months ago, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. He's like, we'd love for you to read the pilot. We're going to start shooting in January. He's like, you know, there's no money and there's no guarantees, but, you know, we'd love for you to read it and to give us your thoughts.

And so I was like, totally get it. I'd love to do it. No strings, you know, send it over. And so, so I read it twice that weekend. And I typed up my notes and I, and I drove in on Monday. And I met with him and David. And, you know, I had, you know, maybe three pages of notes. Just like page 13, you know, a Wall Street trader would would never say this because of blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I kind of just went through, you know, point by point of what I thought, you know, made an authentic Wall Street or hedge fund. and after the meeting they said, you know what, there might be some money, and we might like to offer you a consulting job on the pilot. And I said, sign me up.

And so my first job was to go around with Andrew Ross Sorkin, who's huge, huge journalist for the Times and CNBC, and Damien Lewis, who's the star of the show. And, you know, can you set up a couple of meetings at hedge funds just because Damien wants. to do some character study and whatnot. And I was like, done. And, you know, I made my phone calls because I worked in the business for 15 years and I still have a couple of friends. And that's how it started. And so, you know, some days I didn't even say a word.

Some days I just sat there and listened and, you know, everything, everything was perfect. And then, you know, other days I would get there and I would hear the actor say something and I would go up to Brian and say, hey, Brian, the act. actor said, you know, hey, the stock's trading at, you know, $25. And I'm like, in this situation, he actually would say, you know, I covered the stock at $25 or, you know, something small, very, very minor. And, you know, it was really neat because this set was the equivalent of like a big budget feature film. It was a three-week shoot, which is really large for an hour television show. and, you know, it's A-Less actors, and, you know, obviously Brian and David are just amazing writers,

executive producers and showrunners. And so that's what I did for, you know, a week in January. And a couple months later, or maybe a few weeks later, Showtime picked up the series, and they offered me a consulting gig on the show. And so now, you know, I'll read a draft of an episode and, you know, send over some notes. And a couple days of each episode, I'll be. on set and I sit there and just try to make sure that it's authentic. And, you know, the thing is, if I wasn't there, the show would still be just as great.

But I think the interesting thing is by me being able to tweak a word here or there or just to make it real, I think audiences will pick up on that, even if they don't work on Wall Street. You know, I think typically viewers and readers, they have sort of a bullshit detector. that even if they don't know the subject matter, they kind of know when it's not spot on. So it's been an amazing experience. Yeah, I'm fascinated by a couple things there. So first, for me, it's like when I watch... Are you fascinated by how fast I talk and how I didn't stop talking?

No, no, I'll tell you here. So for me, like, it's like when I watch like a football movie, and this is probably how it is for you when you're watching a movie. There's some Wall Street type dialogue. me or I watch a football movie and I'm like, did they not have a consultant on set telling them that that doesn't look anything like how a play is run or that doesn't sound like how a quarterback calls a play in the huddle or that's not how a coach would do it? And so to me, when I think of it's because I personally wouldn't know, you know, the jargon or the verbiage used by people on Wall Street. I'm sure they could for the average person. But I love the people, I love people who are so into the little. details, even maybe just changing a word or two that they're willing to pay for a consultant

to come on and say, you know, that's, that's, that's pretty good. However, here's how it could be perfect. Here's how it could be great. So that's why I'm curious about what is it like on set? Like what's the process for making a show? Because when I hear they spend, so wait, you're telling me they spend two weeks just shooting one, the first episode and then. The pilot, they, this pilot they spent, it was a three-week shoot, 15-day shoot. Wow. Now, for each episode, they're bringing in amazing, amazing directors, like the last guy who directed the episode we're shooting right now, James Foley. He directed Glenn Gary, Glenn Ross, I mean, a bunch of films.

The guy, Neil Berger, who directed the pilot. I mean, his work is amazing. But so now each episode is a two-week shoot. so I'm sorry I kind of cut you off what was no I'm just I'm just curious about the process because I don't think the average person fully understand so you you guys will shoot a pilot you'll spend three weeks put all this effort money time into a pilot then you have to send it to like I don't know the distributors or to potential so how does that work show time picked up and and you know I'm if I'm incorrect I apologize but I'm

pretty sure this is how it works okay so so Brian and David wrote a specs script, which is just on speculation. It's just one episode, just the first episode, or the whole season. They knew, no, they wrote the pilot, which is one episode, and they knew how the season, or they had an idea how the season would progress. So then Showtime ended up buying that pilot. So Showtime spent the money and produced and made the pilot based off Brian and David. I mean, Brian and David were the executive producers, so they made the pilot, but it was Showtime

money. So then once that pilot was made, it goes to the studio execs at Showtime, and they either greenlight it and order six episodes or eight episodes. In this case, they ordered 11 more episodes, so there'll be 12 episodes for season one.

So Showtime spends a lot of money, then looks at the product and says, do we want to continue, or do we want to cut our losses? And so Showtime orders 11 more, and so now Brian and David, you know, had the task of, you know, putting, putting a, you know, a writer's room together and a team together

and outlining the whole season. And it is, it is, it's really fascinating how it all goes down. Yeah, that's the part I am fascinated by because it's, it's like, I don't know if, if, if, if, if it's all shot. So you, you'll shoot an episode and whatever happens in that one episode. It's not like you'll shoot scenes from episode two and episode seven on the same day, like that never happens? I wouldn't say never, but the way that this season is going, it's typically, you know, you're shooting only that current episode.

But, you know, like we did an establishing shot last week, I'm sure another episode will use that same establishing shot. What's an establishing shot? Of the hedge fund. So, like, just the exterior of the building, you know, whether it's morning, afternoon or night, And, you know, it's just like a two or three second shot of the hedge fund. And so, like, that's a shot that I'm sure that they'll use again. But right now, no, they're not jumping ahead. I got you.

Okay. Sorry, I didn't mean to get on the canvas. Yeah, go ahead. What's your favorite football movie? Do you have you put me on the spot? You know, it's funny. No, no, no. What is it?

Remember the Titans. I love Remember Titans. I think it's a great one. You know, I was in high school or on the verge of, like, high school and college. I forget what year it was when Varsity Blues came out. Right. And I don't know if, I mean, do you remember Varsity Blues? Of course.

I mean, it was. So like. I don't want your life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I still, I really enjoyed that movie. I'm not afraid to say it. So I really like varsity Blues. Remember the Heights is a great one.

The program, do you remember the program? Of course. That was like 1993. I was really young, so I didn't really fully understand it. But the Joe Kane and Heisman. like that was so those are probably the three that are the tell me tell me the truth did did you ever cry with watching rudy oh yeah absolutely i i think i especially and you have a daughter or how many how many kids you have just just one daughter okay so daughters too i think or maybe it's just kids in general for for whatever

reason you you at least i do you cry even more when you have kids or you just they just make you think about different things. We're like, maybe what if that was my child? It's like, that doesn't even make sense, you know, like, but it's still, for, for whatever reason, I feel like that, that the floodgates can just open up at random times. Totally. And you don't really know why. And then you just kind of have to own it, you know?

Like I was, for Father's Day, my wife got me this, I don't know why I'm telling the story, got me this book she made for me. That was like a picture book, you know? And she wrote little captions below it. And on my daughter Ella's page, it says, you know, her little caption is she had each of them kind of write like what they thought. And at the bottom just says, I'm just like you. And dude, I just couldn't, I couldn't handle it. I just lost it.

Absolutely lost it for a while. And I think there's a little, they're a little puzzle. Like are you, you know, is it seven year old? Are you sad? I'm like, I'm not sad. I'm really happy. And it just, it's beyond happiness. It's like, you know, you can't even, I don't know.

You don't know why, but just little things like that where they. say like, I'm just like you, Dad. You're like, oh, and you lose it, man. Frusts you, yeah. I mean, what's interesting about that you brought that up, too, because so I'm, I'm almost, I'll be six years sober in, in October. And that was a huge shift for me once I got sober and kind of got my legs back, like, you know, emotionally, I just, I mean, I kind of became a mush.

Absolutely. man let's let's dive into that aspect of it too so you wrote the by side and you know it's gotten you know huge write-ups if people go go look it up on amazon or google it and you'll see a ton of great things written about it but but a guy you know you're a guy growing up and from Maine and looking to expand your horizons and and i'll let you tell your story from here but but how did it come about as far as your story tourney you know going on wall street some of the things you did and then ultimately writing a book about it. So, you know, here I am.

I graduate from Ohio University with my journalism degree, you know, like... Great journalism school, by the way. Yeah, yeah. I was... You didn't ask me this, but at graduation, you know how, you know, they sit all the schools, like, in their own section. So I'm in the journalism school, right? And I'm sitting there, and I'm really, really hung over.

I'm ready to die. And I look around and I notice that, and I'm not even exaggerating, that every single person in my section was wearing like one of those, I don't even know what they're called those, like, sashes or something for like honors or whatever. Yeah. And I'm like, oh my God. I'm like, I am the only person in the journalism school without one of these things. And I was, I mean, it was pretty funny. But so, yes, I was in the journalism school, but I guess I was kind of like the black sheep. So, you know, here I am. It's January, 1994. I went back to my parents' house in Maine before I ended up leaving for New York. And, you know, I show up in the city with a U-Haul that had a giant lobster on it that said, America moves from Maine. I'm wearing LLB boots. I've got a flannel on and a baseball hat. And I'm like, all right, let's go, right? And I'm the third guy in a two-bedroom.

apartment. My bed is a couch. I'm paying $400 a month, which in New York City was like dirt, dirt, dirt, cheap. And, you know, I was getting ready to set off on, you know, using my journalism degree somehow and getting a job. You know, I walk to Sports Illustrated and tried to get up to the building and the security guard is like, dude, like, what are you doing? And I'm like, oh, I just want to drop off my resume. And the guy's like, mail it. And like, just like turned his back. on me. I was so naive. I had no clue. And I'm making phone calls to PR companies and, and I'm just, I'm trying to hustle, but I don't even know how to hustle. And so I call my mom and I'm like, this is not going well. I'm like, I'm about to go to the gap and get, get a resume. And not that there's anything wrong with that, but after graduating from college, I did not want to work at the gap.

And so my mom was like, well, you know, why don't you call your uncle Tucker, you know, just give him a call. And I was like, you know what? That's a great idea. The guy worked in New York for many, many years. He worked on Wall Street. I know he's successful. He must know, you know, people in my field. And maybe he can make an introduction or two.

And so call him up. And I didn't even really get the words out. I wasn't prepared. I'm like, um, uh, uh, uh, and he's like, I'll call you back in 10 minutes. And I was like, okay. And so, you know, he calls me back. And he's like, so you have 10 interviews this week. And I'm like, for what?

And he said, oh, you know, just tell them you want to get into sales. I'm like, no, for what? Like, what kind of company? And he's like, oh, they're all on Wall Street. And I was like, okay. And so I hang up the phone. And this is not an exaggeration. Weeks earlier, someone had mentioned the firm Goldman Sachs to me.

I literally thought it was like a high-end apartment store. And so I didn't know what Goldman Sachs was. And then I couldn't, after, you know, getting my list of interviews, I couldn't remember Morgan Stanley's name. I kept calling it Stanley Morgan because there was a New England Patriot wide receiver back in the 80s who was, you know, his name was Stanley Morgan. And I couldn't get that right. But, you know, I show up to my first interview, which is Lehman Brothers. And, you know, I'm wearing my Phileans basement suit, untailored.

No clue in the world of, you know, I was so terrified of the subway. I practiced the day before getting to the interview. And so there I am, World Trade Center, and I go up. And I don't know what transpired. I was sitting there, and I was just, I was in awe because they brought me in right around the opening bell. And this is pre, you know, today's technology. So it was quite a commotion. And it was the intensity and the utter grandness of it all just like totally sucked me in.

It felt very similar to the first time I stepped on to a casino floor in Vegas. You know, you're just your eyes and you're just looking around and just like, and so I said to myself, I'm like, I don't know what just happened, but I won in. And so at that moment, I decided, you know, I was going to chase this world of money and high stakes, you know, gambling and, you know, just this kind of like this lifestyle. And, you know, I eventually did get a job at Morgan Stanley. and I quickly figured out that during the day I was out connected, out-degrieved, and out-experienced, and I really didn't have a chance at kind of standing out of my job during the day. But what I quickly learned was, you know, I could stand out during happy hour. You know, I could crush the girl from Duke and I could crush the guy from Harvard with a drink in my hand.

And so I quickly kind of developed this persona of being, you know, the fun guy. and people wanted to go out with me. And a couple years after being in New York, you know, I had people coming up to me saying, hey, Ternie, you know, I need a reservation of this restaurant, or, hey, I need to get into this club. And I had started to develop those relationships, and I was able to kind of put people in contact with the right people.

And it just kind of started building on itself. And I'm sorry if I'm too long-winded. No, go. So I did that for five years. years, I worked in Morgan Stanley's private client services department. It's now called PWM private wealth management, but I was just kind of getting my base and all of my license and you know, kind of learning the business. And five years after doing that, I get a phone call that kind of changed my life. And it's with a girl who I went to many, many happy hours with.

She was working at a hedge fund, and she called me up. She's like, Ternie, we need a trader. She's like, get your butt over here. And I went and I interviewed. And it turned out to be the Galleon Group, which is a infamous hedge fund now. My former boss is currently serving 11 years. It is the largest sentencing, or at the time, it was the largest sentencing in the history of Wall Street for insider trading. And in 99, you know, we were, the Galleon group was about.

about maybe 500 million under management. And by the time I left two years later, it was $5 billion. So what I witnessed over those two years was just pure, pure insanity. But, you know, I also learned how to cheat when I was at Galleon. I learned, you know, the best ways to get away with insider trading and, you know, kind of play it fast and loose and, you know, kind of operate in this gray area. and, you know, just is it was kill or be killed, like this intense, you know, environment. And I literally, I was told by my boss early on, he said, every day expect to be fired. And if you're not, it's a good day.

And that's how I lived for two years. It was, it was awful. And the hazing and just, you know, kind of how I was treated and spoken to. But the thing is, you know, there's, I mean, maybe, maybe. Maybe I'm misspeaking for everyone, but everyone's got their price, right? So if you're going to pay me X, you can pretty much say or do anything you want to me. At least that's how I believed and thought in my early 30s. And so I was able to parlay that into a bigger gig.

And I was the head trader and founding partner of a hedge fund called the Argus Partners. And we were $1.4 billion. and now I'm living this extravagant, like, insane lifestyle. I'm flying around in private jets and this and the other thing. And I was offered cocaine about six months before I took that job. And the first thing that popped into my head when I was offered cocaine, I thought of Len bias. Because in 1986, I was 15, 16 years old. And, you know, I believed you do cocaine and you die.

And I held on to that, I believe, for a good 15 years. Fast forward six months. And I'm on the rooftop of a hotel bar in downtown Manhattan. I'm surrounded by beautiful women. And all the other guys who are there are all making, you know, between $500,000 and, you know, $3 or $4 million a year. And you've got drivers and private jets and, you know, 50-yard line seats at the Super Bowl and, you know, whatever you want. And so cocaine did not seem so menacing at the time.

And so I was like, what the hell? I'll try it. And so, and I'm not even exaggerating. But the first line of cocaine that I did, it was in the bathroom of the Thompson Hotel up on the roof. And Ryan, I'll tell you, it was at the time, it was the greatest thing I had ever done. It was the most phenomenal feeling. Every sense was heightened. I just, I felt alive again.

It's been like, I'd been sleeping for 20 years and I felt alive again. And it was so good that from the bathroom back to the roof, I said to myself, I was like, this is, this is so good. At some point, this is going to be a problem. But, but I can't worry about that now. And it eventually did become a problem. You know, it took many, not many. It took a couple of years. And, you know, it got to the point where I could not stop and I could not.

I didn't have an off button. So if I started drinking or started doing cocaine one night, I couldn't stop. And, you know, it'd be six in the morning and I'd have to get in the shower and go straight to work without sleeping. And it got so bad that I actually faked a mugging. There's a chapter in the book. But I'd called in six so many. times in 2006. And, you know, I had the bird flu. I had SARS virus. I had West Nile virus. I had a flood in my apartment. I supposedly had a friend tried to commit suicide. Like, you name it.

I had pink I had every excuse in the book. And so by October of 2006, I'd been, I went on a run and I'd been up for three days. And I knew that if I called in sick, I was going to be fired. I also knew that if I showed up to work in the state that I was in, I was going to be fired. And so I'm circling the block, you know, chain smoking cigarettes, just trying to figure out how am I going to get out of it this time. And I saw this puddle that had formed from the night before. And I kind of look at it and I get the brilliant idea that, well, if I had been mugged, then they're not going to expect me to work. So I run towards the puddle and I try to dive in it. And I don't know if you've ever tried to fall.

but it's actually something, it's really hard to try to fall. And so my first attempt wasn't very good. And I get up and I'm like, you know, I'm not wet enough. I'm not, you know, and so I'm like, boom, boom, boom. And I'm slamming my body into this puddle on the pavement. And, you know, after seven or eight times, I kind of stand up and, and, you know, my pants are now ripped and my clothes are soaked and I'm bleeding and I'm bruised. And I limp into the office. and I get to the trading desk and people are horrified when they see me.

I mean, like, I mean, if I could have taken a picture of their looks on the faces, but I couldn't even speak. So I was like, I was mugged and I turned around, didn't say a word to anyone, and walked out. And needless to say, I was on a plane 72 hours later to my first drug and out. alcohol rehab. So, and I'll speed this up a little bit, but, you know, I ended up, you know, getting clean and I stayed sober for about a year. I ended up going back to Wall Street. I got a job at a hedge fund called Berkowitz, and it used to be called Kramer Berkowitz, Jim Kramer's old hedge fund. And I was able to, you know, put about a year together. And I ended up getting this brilliant idea. I knew I was an addict and an alcoholic, and I knew that I couldn't have one drink or one line of

cocaine, but, you know, me, me being the genius that I am, I said, you know what, why not have one relapse? And so I planned this big, huge night, got a hotel room, you know, made the call to my daughter and my girlfriend and said, hey, I'm staying in the city tonight because we bought this big house out in the suburbs and, you know, planned this big huge night. And just to speed the story up, I, you know, I partied my ass off for 12 straight hours. And then, you know, I said to myself after that, I was like, well, I mean, maybe I can do that once a quarter. And then two weeks later, I'm back in a hotel room. Like, well, I can do that once a month. And then I'm like, all right, once a week. And then before you knew it, I was back at it. And, you know, I ended up

back in rehab. And October 16th, 2009 is the day of my last drinking drug. And, um, Ironically, it's also the day that my former boss, Raj Raj Rajaratnam, was arrested by the FBI, and the hedge fund galleon went down. And so I started to write once I got out of rehab. And, you know, the words weren't very pretty, but they were just flying out of me. And I just kept writing. I treated writing like going to the gym. But interestingly enough, on the days that I didn't want to write, I would say, all right, I'm going to knock out 30 minutes.

and then some days I would look up and I'd been writing for two or three hours. So I just had to get in front of the computer and not worry about what I wrote the day before. And I guess, you know, partly because of my journalism degree and just my original passion, I was able to get a book deal with The Random House and that's kind of how the book happened.

Wow. Tony, I appreciate you sharing them. You know, so many things were popping up my mind as you were telling the stories, No, it's cool. And because, I mean, obviously there's some, some behavior there that you, you, you don't condone. You would never wish that your daughter or something to this. So I'm curious about that aspect of it from a leadership perspective.

You know, you, you're openly, you know, telling the stories about, you know, some of the things that you've done that you're not proud of. Right. What are the conversations like with her? I mean, you know, kids at some point in their life are going to come across others who are doing drugs, drinking, doing, you know, making. poor decisions. What type of conversations you have with her around that so that it becomes a learning experience and not just a bad, bad moment in your life? You know, so she's nine. She'll be 10 in October. So the conversations have been, you know, real service limited. She knows that I go to meetings. She knows, you know, about the book and she knows that there's there's bad words in the book or,

you know, however you want to put it. What I'm trying to do as a father, is just develop the best relationship I can with her in terms of communication and being able to kind of be a father and, you know, secondly, a friend. But I know I can't be her friend first. But just to know that she's always going to be there. And I struggled, you know, Ryan, I struggled with, you know, writing this book. It's like, oh, my God, I'm like, you know, I'm talking about escorts and cocaine. and, you know, some womanizing and this and the other thing.

And I'm like, oh, my God, she's going to read this someday. And what I ended up kind of coming up with was I didn't want to write the book unless it was 100% honest. And I felt that, you know, by telling the truth and by showing her that it's okay to make mistakes and hopefully that we can learn and that we can grow from them, that maybe I can set an example of how to kind of be honest and to, you know, to make amends. And, you know, I hope she doesn't make the same mistakes that I do. I hope she makes her own mistakes.

But I can tell you that, you know, if I hadn't gone through everything that I've been through, there's no way I could be the person that I am today. So, you know, I'm also very, very grateful that I'm an addict and an alcoholic. I'm extremely grateful that that I'm in recovery, but it's really, it's shaped me as the person I am today. Grateful for that. That's an interesting term to use when it comes to being an addict or an alcoholic. That kind of surprises me, actually. Why you say that?

I mean, there's a number of reasons, but I didn't know what gratitude was before. I didn't know. I mean, I could recite it out of Webster's Dictionary, right? But I couldn't even really be honest with myself. And, you know, you don't have to be an addict or an alcoholic to be dishonest with yourself. There's plenty of people out there telling themselves lies. But I know who I am today. And I don't think without being an addict.

or alcoholic that that I could be in this position. Can I, can I just tell you one quick course? Okay, sure. One, one actually other thing that I really, really learned about myself, and I learned this in sobriety. So even though I'm not active addict or alcoholic, I still have tendencies and I still have kind of like this addict behavior sometimes.

And so here I am. It is 2011, 2012, 2012, somewhere in there. So I had a couple of years sobriety. I'd made all of my amends. I was getting along great with my ex. I got through family court. Things were going great in my life. I just got a huge book deal from Random House. And I'm sitting in my computer one night. And I was still, I wasn't happy. And I'm like, oh my God. I'm like, I'm an asshole. Like, what is wrong with me? You know, seven years ago, I was making $2 million a year living in. and, you know, crazy, you know, house and an apartment in the city, and I wasn't happy. Now I'm sober, and I've made all of my men's, and I've, you know, kind of repaired all the damage that I created, and I'm still not happy. I'm like, what is, what is wrong with me? And I was like, oh, my God, like, I'm never going to be happy.

And so that night, I went on the computer, and I looked up the pursuit of happiness. And something that I learned that, you know, happiness back in 1776 of the Declaration of Independence did not mean wealth. It did not mean materialistic things. It did not mean pleasure. And I always equated happiness with all of those things, like, you know, money and trips and pleasure and this and the other thing. But it actually happiness meant, you know, honor and integrity and, you know, kind of how you live your life. And I was like, oh my God. I'm like, you know what? I don't want to be happy. I'm done with happiness. The only thing, my only goal in life now is serenity. And so ironically, from the first minute of me choosing serenity over happiness, I have never been happier my entire life.

So now I'm sitting, I'm out in the suburbs and I'm just making red every month. I got a small two bedroom and, you know, I'm trying to write every day and I'm seeing my daughter five or six times a week. And I've never been happier. I mean, and that's a miracle, right? Mm-hmm. That's, that's, yeah, I appreciate you sharing that story. What is, what's the definition of serenity to you? It's just a sort of a peaceful, you know, kind of knowing that I can't, I can only control the things I can control.

And it's just saying, you know what, this is actually a good definition of serenity, right? If you're in the checkout counter, you know how the 10 items are less. Mm-hmm. someone who doesn't count the items in front of them well I'm sorry I screwed up the the story but if you're at the supermarket checkout item 10 items or less whatever and and the person in front of you has got a bunch of items on there the person who doesn't say anything about the guy who has 12 items you know they're they're at peace but the person who doesn't

even count they have serenity so you know it's it's kind of like this this idea of Serenity is something that can be sustained. Happiness isn't. You're going to have ups and downs and, you know, you're going to get your next goal or you're going to get that promotion or you're going to get that big bonus. But then that goes away. So serenity to me is kind of just being okay with every situation and being at peace and just knowing, you know, that I'm doing the right thing. And another thing I'll tell you, Ryan, which has infinitely, infinitely changed my life. especially coming from Wall Street.

I was a very result-oriented type of person. And even thinking back to classes at Ohio University, I would spend 20, 30 minutes figuring out, okay, well, if I get this grade on this test, and I do this, that, and the other, I need to get an 89 on this test to make sure that I get a B in the class. I would spend time figuring out how I was going to kind of achieve my results.

And today I don't do that, or I try not to. I still get caught up in it sometimes. But when you focus on your actions, somehow magically, the results don't matter anymore. So if I've got a big interview, let's say, you know, on Tuesday, and I prepare for it, and I do everything in my power of, you know, that I can, and I go in and I'm on time and, and I act accordingly, and I walk out of that interview, strangely, doesn't matter anymore if I get the job. And I never used to live that way because it was very resolved, like, I have to get this job. I have to get this job.

When I should have been focusing on my actions. So, you know, that's another thing that has infinitely changed my life. When I focus on the actions, the results don't matter anymore. Wow. Man, we've gotten in a lot of different places here, Ternie. This is good. You know, like one from one area to the other. And before we started, and I mentioned this to you, you know, I never really know where it's going to go.

And I think that's the beauty of these types of long-form conversations that we're fortunate enough to have on tape so we can go back and listen to. And I go back and listen to when I can learn from. So, you know, I appreciate you sharing these tough stories and really bad decisions that were made by you because it's hard for people to admit that. You know, we all struggle with those things with admitting some of the bad. choices and you've you know written a book about it you talk about it openly and talk about how you're going to you know handle that as a as the ultimate leader when and that's and that's being a father so I really appreciate you sharing it. Thank you. Yeah. You know, it's it's it's set me free, you know. Yeah. No, I can tell. I could tell

based on our conversations leading up to this and then this one as well. So I, you know, it's just wow. You know what my favorite favorite part about the whole thing is? What? Sunday night's bed. You know, I used to sit there trying to figure out, how are my world's not going to cloud? How is this person not going to talk to this person? Or how am I going to make sure that this lie doesn't get exposed? Like, Sunday nights were, were hell to me. And, and, and now there are no lies. There are no secrets and, and life is much easier this way. Do you, do you have a constant fear, this question just popped around on. Do you have a constant fear of relapse of going back to your old ways?

I'm definitely not constant fear. It's something that I need to be diligent at. You know, I dealt with, you know, cravings and temptations for a good number of years coming out of my second rehab. People ask me all the time, they're like, why do you keep going to meetings? Are you afraid you're going to drink or pick up? And my response to that is, no, I go to meetings because I think it helps me become a better person.

And so I don't live in constant fear that I'm going to relapse. And, you know, as cliche as it is, there's so much truth to it. You know, we live our lives one day at a time. And, you know, today my plan is to do this podcast. I'm going to write something for CNBC. I'm going into a meeting tonight. And after that, I might go see the movie straight out of Compton. Like, that's my plan.

Love it. And drugs and alcohol have no part of it. So love it. That's awesome, man. I appreciate it. You know, I have one more question. Yeah. I could, I could probably talk to you for a couple hours, but I have one more question. It's around the purpose behind my show here, the learning leader show. As I told you here before we started recording, you know, I, I think leadership is such an important skill and trade. It's a part of so many different things, whether it's the most important thing, which is being a, being a dad or in the business world. or in the sporting world, which is my background. So I think it can be learned, and that's, I hope people, you know, when they get done listening to a great episode of a podcast, they've been able to take some notes of actionable tips or things they've learned, they've laughed a little bit, they've been inspired some, and they've enjoyed it.

You know, I hope an episode can provide all of those things. So, but when you think of the phrase learning leader, is there a definition that pops in the mind? Is there a person that you think of? what's the first thing that comes to mind when you hear that phrase? You know, it's interesting because the two words separately, you know, mean something completely different, but a learning leader to me is, is someone who is able to take kind of both ends of the spectrum.

They can be a leader while still learning. And any, and this is, so I'm sorry, I'm not specifically answering your question, but one of the things that I think is paramount in. being successful is being teachable. So it doesn't matter if you're the president of the United States or the shoe shine boy, you need to be teachable. And it's a very, very easy thing to say, oh, well, I'm teachable. But, you know, I'm a guy that had 970 SATs. I was, you know, a B student at Ohio University. And I ended up being extremely, well, I shouldn't say extreme. I ended up having a successful career on Wall Street, and the number one reason was because I was teachable.

And so when I look at a leader, a learning leader, they get so much more respect because they act as a leader, but they're also constantly learning. So I think the combination of the two words is just such an interesting dynamic. and so I don't know if any particular person comes to mind when I hear that, but to me, it's the type of leader that I would want to work for. Yeah, absolutely. I love it. Thank you very much. Thank you. Yeah, where can everybody go to find you online?

Well, you can find the book on Amazon. It's the by-side. And then my website should, it might be ready today. I had it redone, but it's terniduff.com. It's still operating, but I'm doing a rejig. So turniduff.com, T-U-R-N-E-Y, D-U-F-F dot com. And then coming up this fall, I've got a TV show called The Filthy Ridge Guide that's going to be on CNBC primetime.

And then billions that we talked about, that'll be showtime in January and working on a couple other things. So we'll see. Man, love it. You got a lot going on. It's awesome. All right, Ternie, thanks. Thank you for having me.

Of course. Thanks so much. And I know we'll definitely be continuing to be in contact as we both progress. I appreciate it. Thank you. And yeah, let's keep in touch. And I'm sure our paths will cross again. Definitely, man. All right, attorney.

I have a great day. You too. Okay, bye. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to LearningLeadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly

by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on the Learning Leader Show.