The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 067: Roger Dooley – How To Persuade And Convince Others With Neuromarketing

Episode Date: October 29, 2015

Episode 067: Roger Dooley – How To Persuade And Convince Others With Neuromarketing This episode was absolutely packed full of action oriented takeaways to help us all gain a better understanding of how our brain works to process information.  It was an extremely interesting talk on a topic that fascinates me. Roger Dooley is a speaker and author of Brainfluence: 100 Ways to Persuade and Convince Consumers with Neuromarketing, the popular blog Neuromarketing, and Brainy Marketing at Forbes. He is the founder of Dooley Direct, a marketing consultancy, and co-founded College Confidential, the leading college-bound website. That business was acquired by Hobsons, a unit of UK-based DMGT, where Dooley served as VP Digital Marketing and continues in a consulting role. Episode 067: Roger Dooley – How To Persuade And Convince Others With Neuromarketing Subscribe on iTunes or Stitcher Radio   The Learning Leader Show “According to leading neuroscientists, 95% of all thoughts, emotions, and learning occur before we are ever aware of it.” Some Questions I Ask: What one common characteristic do all high achievers leaders share? How can someone ease the pain of high prices? What are your thoughts on “high price = high value object?” Why is it smarter to share a cup of coffee with someone as opposed to a cold beverage? Why is oxytocin so important? What is The Persuasion Slide Model?  How can it help people in their everyday lives? In This Episode, You Will Learn: The power of focus and why it’s so important How certain phrases or word choices can manipulate you Why it’s important to think of the other person in the conversation A deep dive in persuasion and why it must be ethical How it can help to briefly touch someone’s shoulder   Great qualities for leaders: Humility and having an open mind  “I work to translate the findings from neuroscience into actionable advice.” Continue Learning Read:  Brainfluence: 100 Ways To Persuade And Convince Consumers With Neuromarketing Go To: www.RogerDolley.com    Follow Roger on Twitter: @rogerdooley You may also like these episodes: Episode 001: How To Become A Master Connector With Jayson Gaignard From MasterMind Talks Episode 002: How To Take Over And Set Bigger Goals With Chris Brogan Episode 004: How Todd Wagner (and Mark Cuban) Sold Broadcast.com To Yahoo! For $5.7 Billion Episode 010: Shane Snow – How To Accelerate Success Using Smart Cuts Did you enjoy the podcast? This was a jam packed episode full of great content.  Roger Dooley is leader who is constantly learning in order to help us all live a better life.  Who do you know that needs to hear this?  Send them to The Learning Leader Show! Episode edited by the great J Scott Donnell Bio From RogerDooley.com   Roger Dooley is a speaker and author of Brainfluence: 100 Ways to Persuade and Convince Consumers with Neuromarketing, the popular blog Neuromarketing, and Brainy Marketing at Forbes. He is the founder of Dooley Direct, a marketing consultancy, and co-founded College Confidential, the leading college-bound website. That business was acquired by Hobsons, a unit of UK-based DMGT, where Dooley served as VP Digital Marketing and continues in a consulting role. Dooley spent years in direct marketing as the co-founder of a successful catalog firm and also was director of corporate planning for a Fortune 1000 company. He has an engineering degree from Carnegie Mellon University and an MBA from the University of Tennessee.

tactile impressions translate into emotions and our emotional perceptions. So you mentioned the coffee where people felt better. If they were, say, in an interview situation, they felt better about the person they were talking to as if that person was warmer when they were given a warm beverage. Another example is when people were asked to evaluate a resume, they were handed the resume on a clipboard. and some had it on a very heavy clipboard, and the others had on a light clipboard,

and the people with the heavier clipboard felt that the candidate described was more impressive. And so there was a sort of weight or gravitas that was carried along merely with the weight of the object. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders.

Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. Hey, and welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. This is a fascinating episode, and a little bit different from a lot of the ones that I've previously done. And I want to start off with a statement about our brain and then talk to you a little bit about our featured leader.

Here's a statement. According to leading neuroscientists, 95% of all thoughts, emotions, and learning occur before we are ever aware of it. Which leads me to the conversation with our featured leader, Roger Dooley. He's the author of the best-selling book Brain Fluence, 100 ways to persuade and convince consumers with neuromarketing. He also is the creator and publisher of neuromarketing. marketing, the most popular blog on using brain and behavior research in marketing, advertising, and sales. On a really interesting conversation tonight, we discuss how to translate the findings from

neuroscience into actionable advice. Another interesting part of this dialogue was why sharing a warm beverage can make someone feel better about you. Perhaps this is why it's a good idea to go out for a cup of coffee, maybe you. for the first interview or perhaps even a first date. We talked deeper about why that's a good idea. And then also the importance of finding ways to release oxytocin. It's a powerful chemical in your brain and how developing trust can do just that.

Again, this is a different one. This is one that I found pretty fascinating because Roger is a really intelligent guy, especially when it comes to our brain and how it's affected. Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, it's Roger Dooley. Okay, Roger, extremely excited to have you here on The Learning Leaders Show. This has been months in the works for me. I love your book, Brain Fluence, and I have a quick question to get us started here with some oomph to it. And that's around people who have achieved big things, high achievers.

I'm curious, for the ones that you've studied, people that you've been around, people in your network, you, yourself, what are some of the common characteristics? of high achievers. Well, happy to be here first, Ryan. And I suspect you may have heard this before, but I would have to say that the ability to focus is absolutely critical. Today, there are so many distractions, particularly with social media, with our various electronic devices that we carry around with us, and there are just so many constant interruptions and distractions.

the ability to sort of put that stuff aside and focus on the key objective. And of course, it isn't just that kind of stuff as, say, an author. Do you focus on writing your next book? Do you focus on creating great content for those people that are following? Do you focus on building your platform? And so you're tugged in all these various directions, not to mention the constant pinging of electronics. So the ability to say, okay, today we are going to do this and to actually actually, do that, I think is really one key aspect.

Do any specific people come to mind when you hear the word high achievers? Like, who are the people that pop into your mind? Hmm. Good question. I think that if you look at just about any successful entrepreneur, they would have to qualify as a high achiever because so many entrepreneurs are not successful. I mean, obviously, folks like Elon Musk probably is the Consummit Entrepreneur. And he has, I think, great ability to focus and also a great ability to put teams together

because he could clearly not do all those things that he's doing in totally different areas if he was not able to build, in each case, a great team of really talented people. Yeah, absolutely. He's one of my favorites on that list of dream guests to have someday. So, Roger, let's take a step back. Look at the food chain. Start with me and then about a thousand podcasts later. You'll be ready for Elon.

Hey, man, you got to be persistent and set big goals. And that's what I do. So I love to take a step back and look at what, well, really one of the main reasons why we're talking. And so, you know, I've spoken with a number of people, have done over, I don't know, 75 of these talks now. And on more than a few occasions, you know, even whether I'm recording or after I get them recording, I, you know, have a conversation or, you know, have a conversation. or an email conversation and a dialogue. And people have mentioned your book, Brain Fluence. And the full title of your book is Brain Fluent.

100 ways to persuade and convince consumers with neuro-marketing. And I'm fascinated by how our mind and how our brain works, how it can potentially be persuaded by things that you don't even know. And according to leading neuroscientists, 95% of all thoughts, emotions, and learning occur before we are even aware of it. and you are an expert in this area. You wrote the book on this. I love for you to take a moment to talk a little bit about yourself,

what specifically you do, and then why you wrote the book Brain Fluence and the effect that it's had on others that you have heard from. Okay, Ryan, well, I don't want to give my entire life story, but I started off life as an engineer and I work my way up through project and product management. and finally was in a senior strategy position at a Fortune 1000 company, and then chucked that all back in the early days of home computers to become an entrepreneur. And since then, that's pretty much what I've been doing.

My original business was catalog marketing because the Internet was not around yet, at least in anything resembling its current form. But that was a really quantitative kind of marketing. I love the fact that we could see what was really working. We could do A-B tests. We could test different color illustrations on the catalogs. We could calculate the sales per square inch of every product to figure out which products were making this money and which ones weren't.

So this, of course, over time morphed into various digital businesses, built a huge community along the way, sold that a few years ago. But about 10 or 11 years ago, I saw the confluence of neuroscience and marketing, and I certainly wasn't the only one to see that. There were already some small entrepreneurial companies that were trying to apply neuroscience tools, like various kinds of either brain imaging or brainwave measurement techniques to determining whether an ad would be effective or not. But I began, well, first I did what any good digital market would do. I bought a domain, neurosciencemarketing.com, kind of keywordish, but it really combines those two topics nicely.

And I started writing there and continued that for quite a few years until finally, I guess now probably about four years ago, Wiley and I got together and they brought out my book that was based on these topics. But one thing I found over time was there was certainly some neuroscience involved, but there was an awful lot of behavior science too. and I found that my readers responded to the behavior science, perhaps even more than the neuroscience piece, because most businesses do not have access to the tools of neuroscience. Now, some of those tools are getting cheaper where you can hire a company to perform test-free. But even today, with the somewhat more reasonable prices, these tools are out of reach for many smaller and medium-sized businesses, and entrepreneurial firms. But what I have tried to do really practically from day one was translate the findings

from both neuroscience and academic studies of behavior into actionable advice that businesses can employ without necessarily going out and doing those same experiments or running those same tests themselves. And that's what I've been doing. I've got over a thousand articles now at my main blog. I've got a blog at four. as well where I've got a couple hundred posts or something. So it keeps me busy.

And what I'm doing today is primarily that I am writing. I do speaking engagements and a little bit of consulting, although really I kind of discourage that. It's not scalable. And I prefer to spend my time on writing and speaking to people who have an interest in these topics. It's fascinating, like I mentioned. And so if you wouldn't mind, I'd love to dive into some of the parts.

So I have my earmarked and highlighted parts of the book that I wanted to, you know, like I said, this is, this podcast is really cool for me because, you know, I find these books that have a big impact on my life. And this gives me the vehicle to go out and then speak and dive deeper with the people who are the subject matter experts like yourself. And so it's, it becomes neat for me. And for our listeners that we're able to hear you dive deep. into some of the things that I've read and then hopefully other people will go out and get the book and be like, oh yeah, I heard Roger. And that's pretty cool that he said that.

So I'd love to dive into some parts, some notes that I took right now. And you could talk a little bit about why these things have an effect on our brain and why it has an effect on our decision making without sometimes us even knowing it. Sounds good, Ryan. So there's a lot of things I have here. So one of the things that you talk about that from brain fluence is about how people, ease the pain of high prices through bundling, through using decoys, and anchoring prices effectively. Talk to me more about that. What do you mean by that as far as how to handle that pain through those tactics? Okay, well, I think to begin with, one of the most interesting things

is some brain imaging work that was done some years ago now by George Lowenstein and at Carnegie Mellon and Brian Newtonson at Stanford, where they found that when people saw were presented with the product and a price that appeared to be high, in other words, it wasn't a bargain. It was kind of a reverse where it would strike them as being high for that product. It actually lit up the pain areas in their brain. So it was almost as if they were experiencing physical pain. I mean, obviously, it's not a direct corollary, but that was, I think, one key finding. and therefore it is good for marketers to try and find ways of avoiding that pain reaction.

And one example is buying sushi, which is one of the more painful types of purchasing experience that you can have because you're going out and buying these expensive little pieces of fish where every time you make a decision, it costs another $5 or $10, and you have multiple pain. points as you go, where presenting that same type of product in, say, and all you can eat situation, one price, all you can eat, may not actually save the customer money, but it would be a less painful experience. And that's why various kinds of pricing schemes that you pay one amount of money for a batch of products or an whole amount of product, or whatever.

An inclusive deal like you and your spouse want to go to an all-inclusive and you're like, oh, this is great. I can just, once we get there, we don't have to pay for anything. We can just go eat and drink and do whatever we want to do. But in reality, it might not be saving you money, but you feel better about it because you have this one-time bundled charge. Sure, absolutely. I occasionally go on cruises and Regent Cruise Line offers very nice, but very high-priced cruises in comparison with their competition. But they are all-inclusive. You can go to any of the restaurants, the bars, whatever, and you will never have to sign a ticket for anything.

And the experience was really wonderful because you never had that sort of decision point where, oh, do I really want to order that cocktail or whatever? And then have to sign for it right then. It was just all included. Now, that was not a money-saving opportunity. I suspect that I could have gone on another nice cruise line and paid a la carte for everything and still come away cheaper, but it would not have been the same experience. So, and I think that one thing, too, it's kind of a related topic. You mentioned bundling. When you have products that on a standalone basis might appear to be costly or expensive, sometimes combining them makes that easier for the consumer to dissonable.

side. And I think a great example is if you've bought a car in recent times, you may have found that there's a luxury package, and that includes the leather seats, the upgraded stereo, and maybe few or four other options. And that might cost $3,000 or $5,000 or something like that. But it does not produce the same reaction as if you were simply buying those things individually. And then you could also compare them because you might say, well, gee, why should I pay? $2,500 for leather seats when I could buy an entire leather couch for $1,000, for example, when it's in a bundle, those individual comparisons are a little bit less apparent. I got, I think, a counterpoint to this, or at least it elicits a question.

So there are, I think another way to view this is some people see whatever cost more is worth more. For example, I can name a few of these, like Harvard, right? Harvard has enough money in their endowment to give everybody a scholarship for the next 30 years, but they're still the highest priced school in the country. Or Apple does not discount their prices. I just spoke, another company I just spoke with the CEO of Mizan and Maine a men's clothing company that they will never discount their prices anywhere, regardless of who's selling it. It's the same price, and it's priced, you know, it's, depending on who you're speaking with,

it can be deemed as priced high. there's certainly much cheaper ways to go about it. What do you think about what happens to your mind when you people say, like I've been with people who I've gone to dinner with them and they'll say, what's the most expensive bottle of wine that you have? Give me that one. You know, maybe they're celebrating or they're trying to. That's when you know you're having dinner with a moron.

Right. But you've, but no, I know what you know what I mean. You know what I mean? Like, so there are people who they see a high price and they immediately think high value. Like that's how their brain works, like whether it's Apple who won't discount on those other companies. How does that affect the brain in your mind when you're seeing that type of strategy towards the market? Okay, well, several of the products that you mentioned would fall into the luxury product category, and that category has a fundamentally different approach to pricing.

There, you're typically not trying to convince the consumer that you're offering a bargain or even great value for the money. Because clearly if you buy a piece of luggage that cost $2,000, you're not getting 10 times the utility of one that costs $200. But you are paying for superb quality. Perhaps you're paying for prestige because people recognize that and you'll be, in essence, buying yourself status. There are a lot of factors that go into that.

So, yes, you're absolutely correct. luxury products generally do not discount or benefit from discounting. Obviously, if there is a market for discounted luxury products, but to the extent that it influences the perception of the product as being luxury, that can backfire. And we've seen some luxury brands historically that have tried to go a little bit more mass market and ended up suffering in the long run because they lost their cachet. And you mentioned Harvard, actually there's, some interesting date. I spent some time in the higher ed space, and at one point when the Ivy League schools, which are all typically very comparable intuition, and there may be a thousand or two difference

between the schools, but all of the ivies are very competitive, and some of the differences are geographic, so room and board of Columbia might be a little bit higher because they're in Manhattan. And at one point, they diverge somewhat, but the schools that were, at the lower end of the price spectrum, we're getting fewer applications, presumably because people thought, gee, well, there's something a little bit wrong with them because they're not at the same price level as everybody else. So ultimately, they pretty much took the approach of staying competitive with each other. And unfortunately, competitive being all at very high levels that are tough for the average student and family to afford.

Yeah. Changing years a little bit when it comes to, there's a, You wrote about an interesting experiment from John Barr at Yale University found that the temperature of a beverage makes a difference in how one person judges another person. And the takeaway, and I'll let you dive in here, is that the warmer, the beverage, the better a person thinks about you. And that's oftentimes why people offer each other coffee. Talk to me a little bit more about that. Yeah, that's a fascinating experiment. And there are several that show how tactile impressions. translate into emotions and our emotional perceptions.

So you mentioned the coffee where people felt better. If they were, say, in an interview situation, they felt better about the person they were talking to as if that person was warmer when they were given a warm beverage. Another example is when people were asked to evaluate a resume, they were handed the resume on a clipboard, and some had it on a very heavy clipboard

and the others had on a light clipboard, and the people with the heavier clipboard felt that the candidate described was more impressive. And so there was a sort of weight or gravitas that was carried along merely with the weight of the object. So, and there are all kinds of examples of like that that show you have these very subtle influences, and of course, they are totally below human awareness.

In other words, we have no idea that we're being influenced by that warm cup that we're holding in our hands or by the weight of the clipboard. Nevertheless, those influences exist. So if you are serving somebody a warm beverage, you might consider a mug without handles. So they actually have to sort of cup it in their hands. Wow. Fascinating stuff. That's why I love the stuff you write about because there's so many of these nuggets.

Well, really, there's a hundred of them. There's many more when you read your blog. But I found that one. I was like, wow, I took a note. And I said, I never thought of that. but now it makes so much more sense. The other thing is one of the ones that I found interesting was chapter 39. It's about trust.

And I talk a lot about this on this podcast with people and the importance of trust and developing it and what it actually does. And there's, there's chemicals in the brain, oxytocin actually, that is involved when it comes with the feelings you get when you are trusted and when you trust somebody else. Can you dive a little deeper when it comes to the science, the neuromarketing? when it comes to trust in the chemicals that are involved with that. Yeah, oxytocin is a really interesting compound. It is sometimes called the love hormone or the hug hormone. Paul Zach, a research out in California, has been the preeminent person in that field. And oxytocin is released, for example, when you give a person a hug.

and they've actually found that, and this in turn creates trust. Now, obviously, it doesn't mean you should go hug somebody that you want to trust you. It might seem socially inappropriate and end up having the opposite effect. But this chemical is released, and they've even artificially introduced oxytocin and found that people's trust was increased when they were, in essence, given a whiff of oxytocin, not that they could smell it, but when it was introduced into their system that way, it increased trust. So there's really all kinds of things, but in general, physical contact when it's appropriate, I think can be a powerful tool. There's even some research, and I'm not sure if this is really oxytocin related, but showing that people's feelings were changed by a very light touch on the shoulder.

For instance, if you were inviting somebody back to your office, their opinions were of you or improved in the event that you just touch their shoulder lightly as you were, say, guiding them to your office. And again, I think that all these tools have to be used in a smart way because these days folks are very sensitive about touch, but when it can be used in an appropriate way, it can really be powerful and makes you as an individual more persuasive. Yeah, I was thinking of that too, especially people work at a big company or corporation. There can be a little bit risk involved with that if you don't use it in the right way. So I want to progress to what you're currently working on. So you're working on a project called the persuasion slide. And whenever I think people hear the word persuasion that that creates a couple of,

thoughts. Some are positive and some are negative. I think people are fascinated by the topic. I am. You know, I think we've all read Robert Childini's great text called Influence, a book that's really a classic on persuasion. And so this is something that you're working on now. And I love to hear more about your research, your writing, and everything that's going into it. Sure. And Bob Childerini's had some subsequent books that are definitely worth the read too, as most recent as the small, big, which is 50 or 52 short little chapters, all describing some kind of persuasive influence example. But the persuasion sounds to some people like manipulation,

and I guess it can be because certainly there are con people out there who use these tools to manipulate people into doing things that they really shouldn't be doing. But I think that's something that Bob Chilini emphasizes and I emphasize, and really almost anybody in the space is that persuasion must be ethical. And if you are helping a person achieve something, if you're helping them, say, put more money in their retirement plan, then that's perfectly ethical and indeed desirable. You know, if you're tricking them into buying something that they don't really want

or need and won't use, then that is not ethical and you shouldn't do that. So what I've been working on lately is the concept of, of the persuasion slide and something that I spoke about a couple years ago in Germany and then did a blog post on maybe a little bit more than a year ago and now I'm turning it into a short book and what I wanted to do was create a model where marketers could incorporate both conscious and non-conscious factors because you talk to most marketers well why would people want to buy your product and they've got features and benefits and they can offer discounts and things and these are all conscious factors but then they say well

okay, well, how do we incorporate these non-conscious factors? And as you know, there are hundreds, if not thousands of non-conscious factors. I mean, you've got Chilini's six principles, but then you've got factors from evolutionary psychology that are very powerful. You've got these weird factors like we're just talking about with warm coffee cups and so on. So how do you bring this all together in a single model? So my model is pretty simple. It uses the playground slide as a jumping off point, where you need a nudge at the top, which is some way of getting the customer.

I will say customer. It could be a potential lead or it could be something else, but your customer's attention and getting them moving on the slide, just as, say, mom or dad gives a little kid a little shove at the top. And then you've got the force of gravity, which is what's motivating the customer. And often, as marketers, we don't focus on what's motivating the customer. We focus on ourselves and telling them how great we are. are, how wonderful our products are, and so on, instead of looking at their needs. And so then there's the angle of the slide, and that's where you bring in these both

conscious and non-conscious motivators. So, yes, your product has features. It's got benefits. It has certain characteristics that perhaps the customer has to have. And those are all important. But then you've got these non-conscious factors that you can bring in as well. And then the last element of the slide that is often overlooked is, for the first. friction. If you've ever seen a little kid get stuck part way down a slide because it was

rusty or poorly maintained, that is friction where it prevents you from getting down the slide. And unfortunately, in today's marketing, there is a huge amount of friction. Every year, $4 trillion, that's trillion with a T, dollars worth of merchandise are left in shopping carts online every year, abandoned shopping carts, which is a stunning number. Now, there are a variety of reasons why that happens. Maybe people put it in because they couldn't figure out the shipping, and they had to do that, or various reasons. But in many cases, companies paid a lot of money to drive that traffic with pay-per-click ads and SEO and content marketing.

Then they created a great website, and they've got a warehouse full of products, and got the customer all the way to the point of completing the purchase. But because they got to that order form or whatever, and it was just too daunting. they bailed out. And so friction is huge, and there are non-conscious factors there, too. Even the font that something is printed in can make the action seem harder. There's this weird transference. The concept is cognitive fluency, and when something is difficult for us to process, as in a font that's a little bit hard to read, it ends up being, that difficulty ends up being transferred to the action that's being described.

So, you know, if you want somebody to fill out your lead form or whatever, you want to make it as simple as possible using very clear, simple type. The more you embellish it, the more there is a background that makes a little bit harder to read, that difficulty will go straight to what you're asking them to do. And so anyway, the slide model brings all this together in a way that marketers can think about it and be sure they're covering all their bases. Wow, this stuff is so interesting. I think just it crosses so many, just different things that we don't necessarily consciously think about. And that's really the whole point of your work, is to, I think, to directly be more conscious of it, have a better understanding of an awareness, really, of what's going on

around you. And then if you're somebody trying to sell to these consumers, also gain a better understanding of the process and the way, strategies. to do it. I'm, you know, I don't know what others believe, but I think there's a huge market for your work and people who have a fascination in learning more about this. It's really what my show is about, I believe, is to, you know, have conscious thought around a number of different topics and to really think, really, just to, just to elicit thoughts and create people to take a step back and think about things. So you've certainly done that for me. Roger, I know I want to be

respectful of your time. I have one more question in regards to, you know, before we get out of here in regards to my show. And I know we've talked a lot about tactics and things that you've written about, but I want to talk a little bit about leadership. And this changes the direction a little bit because, but there are leaders involved in everything from a psychological standpoint and from your work as well. I know you speak with a lot of leaders on your podcast, a lot of impressive people. And when you hear the phrase, and so my show is called a Learning Leader Show. When you hear the phrase learning leader, I'm curious to a guy who's really a master at an understanding and has studied the effects of words and things on people's brains. What do you think of when you hear the phrase learning leader?

Well, I think a leader who is not learning constantly will probably not be a leader for very long. Today, things simply change too quickly to be applying. yesterday's solutions to today's problems. Agreed. And when you, yeah, I guess just not to go too meta, but when you think, when people see this, and maybe they've never heard of the show, what do you think the first thought comes to mind for the regular consumer, not a professional who studies this like you, but what do you, if you were paid to say, you know, what type of thought process is this

creating on a consumer's mind? And what would you say? Hmm. Interesting question. I think that probably they might conclude something similar. Perhaps there'd be an overlay of learning how to be a leader. But I think there have been various types of leadership concepts created like the servant leader. Yeah.

Somebody sort of leads from within as opposed to being out in front and giving barking orders. So, you know, to me, I think a learning. leader probably conveys a sort of a sense of open-mindedness and perhaps even a sense of humility, which are both pretty good characteristics for a leader. I love to hear that. It's cool to see you kind of analyze it here quickly. I know I didn't prep you with that question, so I appreciate you kind of off-the-cuff going after everything here.

So, Roger, really appreciate your time. Where can everyone go to find you online? Well, the best jumping off point is Roger Dooley. com. There you can find my links to my blogs, my podcast, my book, and my social profiles on Twitter, which is the network where I'm most interactive. I am at Roger Dooley. Perfect.

Well, again, thanks so much, Roger, for being here. I'm fascinated by your work. It's had a profound influence on me. So I love it. And I'm appreciative and I'm happy that we're able to dive a little bit deeper here today on the Learning Leader Show. So thank you so much for being here. Well, thanks for finding.

Ryan's been a lot of fun. All right, great. Talk to you soon, man. You bet. All right. Bye. This episode of the Learning Leader show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time.

Head over to Learning Leadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on the Learning Leader Show.