The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 073: Jay Bilas – World Class ESPN Basketball Broadcaster, Toughness, Fixing The N

Starting point is 00:00:00 There are certain things in life that are have to and there are things that are want to. And I think if you, at least in my life, taking care of the have to things well has made a good part of my life want to now. Like I get to make decisions based upon what I want to do now because at least my way of thinking I took care of the have to things in life at least fairly well. Are leaders born or are they made? Ryan Hawk believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. Hey guys, before we get to this great conversation, I want to let you know that this episode was

Starting point is 00:00:57 brought to you by Mizzen and Maine. You'll probably remember from episode 64, I spoke with the CEO of Ms. DeMaine, Kevin Lavelle. And, you know, we promised to continue that dialogue as we both progressed on our journeys. And we certainly have, and we formed a partnership. And Kevin and his great companies and support and people that he works with have agreed to sponsor my podcast. But for me, I'm very picky when it comes to this. I only wanted to work with people who I truly believed in their products.

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Starting point is 00:02:52 Ryan Hawk 3 and you'll get $50 off. Again, I love Mizan and Maine. I love everything they stand for. And I promise when you try the search, you will too. Hey and welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk, and I am so excited and grateful for tonight's featured leader. It's lead NCAA basketball analyst for ESPN, Jay Billis. He's also a best-selling author of a great book called Toughness.

Starting point is 00:03:25 He's a lawyer, and he's an incredible follow on Twitter as well at Jay Billis. Encourage you to go check him out there. Very funny, but also insightful and talks about some very important topics. A couple of the things we got into on our interesting conversation tonight. How he got his start doing college basketball media work. This point, it was a radio gig. He was currently working as a lawyer, an attorney, and married with children, needed to have a steady income to take care of them. But he was offered $200 a game while he was still practicing law in order to go and broadcast on the radio.

Starting point is 00:04:02 And we dove deep on this story because I'm fascinated by the origin stories of how people get their start and whatever it is they're doing. And Jay talked about this and I loved it. Then his take on the NCAA and Mark Emert, who was the head of the NCAA, discussing the rights of the student athlete. A lot of you who know Jay know this is a big topic for him. And I loved being able to have the conversation with him about it. And then a great story on how Coach Sosiewski, Coach K, the coach of Duke, also the coach of the USA Olympic team, told his players to take their Team USA jerseys to their rooms, lay the jerseys down on their beds, and simply look at those jerseys. Remember when you were a kid and you thought about this

Starting point is 00:04:43 moment and what it could potentially be and appreciate where you are. I think it's a message for all of us to think about where we are and be appreciative and grateful for what we have. And I love the story. I'm so grateful that Jay shared it. Ladies and gentlemen, I couldn't be more excited for our guest tonight. It's Jay Billis. All right, Jay, extremely excited to have you here on The Learning Leader Show. I got a quick question to get us rolling, and that's around high achievers, people who have done big things in their lives. And you obviously are one of those guys, and you've spent a lot of time around a number of those types of people. I'm curious as to what are some of the common characteristics you found that high achievers all seem to share.

Starting point is 00:05:37 Well, Ryan, the first would be persistence. I think the players that I've been around, the coaches, people who have done well in their field or endeavor, have been incredibly persistent in going after what they want. And not in sort of trying to get money or stuff like that, but to achieve an objective or a goal, they're very persistent. And I think you have to be in order to be successful in anything because there are obstacles that you're going to face in everything, that you, anything worthwhile, you're going to face obstacles.

Starting point is 00:06:15 And if you're not persistent in finding your way through those and overdose and around those, you're going to be stopped by them. And so I would say persistence would be number one for me. Absolutely. Who are the first people that pop into your mind when you hear the phrase, high achiever? Well, that's a good question.

Starting point is 00:06:34 I don't know that I, you know, I think about achievement as much as I think about, excellence, people who are consistently excellent in their fields. And it's one thing to do something well once to win a championship or to perform at a high level at a given event or on a test or whatever you may have. But the people who are able to achieve excellence consistently over time are the ones that I consider to be the role models. So, you know, I don't know that I'm answering your question very well. It's just I don't really think about, you know, achievement as much as I think about, you know,

Starting point is 00:07:15 a standard of excellence that people reach consistently. I love looking at that way. I think that's a great way. You know, that question originally, Jay, was people who have had success. And I changed it because I don't like, because everyone has a different definition of success. And so I've thought I've tweaked a little bit to people who have achieved things. And I like the excellence over time because those are the ones who you really want to follow, people who have consistently been able to make it happen day after day.

Starting point is 00:07:44 They're there for their teammates. They have empathy. Their leaders and their communities, things of that nature. So I like the way that you look at it. The first person I thought of when I think of you or one of the first, and I'm guessing you would probably say people in your family, but I thought of Coach K as a guy who has shown that continued excellence over time. Yeah, he's certainly the most profound influence on me outside of my immediate

Starting point is 00:08:09 family. And I've known him for 30 plus years, and he recruited me when I started recruiting me when I was 17 years old. So I've known him since the time he was a very young man, and I was even younger. And so the beauty of knowing him that long has been, you know, he coached me a long time ago during my period as a player, but he's also been coaching me in the, you know, 20-some years or 30 years since I've graduated. And that's been a really nice thing and a really beneficial thing. for me. So there's not a day goes by that I don't use something he taught me or think about something that he taught me. And even now when I'm lucky enough in my job that I'm still around him quite a bit when I otherwise wouldn't be, I'm still learning things from him, sitting in

Starting point is 00:08:57 his meetings and listening to him. It happens all the time and stuff that I really changes my perspective or sharpens my focus as to what I think is important. I love it. It's just a such a unique position that you're in that you've created for yourself. So let's dive into you, Jay, to how you've gotten to this place. So the overwhelming majority of people who are listening to this already know who you are. But I mean, between everything that you do, you're a fantastic author of a book called Toughness, NCAA Analysts for ESPN, obviously one of the top, number one talents at all in all of ESPN. You're a lawyer. You have an incredible Twitter feed. The list goes on and on. So I'd love to, for you, if you wouldn't mind, to dive in to a little bit about

Starting point is 00:09:41 your background and how you went from a guy who was a basketball player to everything that you've been able to currently accomplish and what you're as well currently doing. Well, yeah, I grew up in Los Angeles, California, and when I was a kid, all I wanted to do was be an athlete. I played basketball and baseball growing up, and I would have been happy doing either one of those for the rest of my life. But I grew up. gravitated toward basketball, and it was really all I wanted to do. And I was very fortunate that I have great parents, and my mother especially didn't want me to think only about one thing. She wanted me to be well-rounded and to have other things that I could do

Starting point is 00:10:25 in my life. So I started doing other things from a really early age. And oftentimes they were things that I didn't really like doing while I was doing them. But, you know, my parents thought it was good for me to try them. And I gravitated toward, you know, like I took speech and debate courses when I was in grade school and high school. And it was something my mother thought was really important for me. And at first, I didn't like it. And after a while, I started to, I started to get into it a little bit that made me a more confident person. And my mom felt like if I did things like that, I would always be able to handle myself. I could kind of, I could stand up and front of people and not be worried about it. And it turned out that that was really beneficial for me.

Starting point is 00:11:07 And my father felt like it was a smart thing to go to graduate school, that he thought law school would be a good thing to do. And I don't want to say he pushed me into it because he didn't. He encouraged me to do it. And I think that's, I've always felt like encouragement is, is maybe the most effective motivation out there. I don't remember being motivated to do anything out of fear as much as I was motivated to do things because people encouraged me, whether it was a coach or my parents or a teacher, that was really effective with me as encouragement. And the other thing about law schools, my dad told me really early on in sort of the discussion about it that, you know, one of the beauties of law schools, you don't have to be a lawyer. It's a great education

Starting point is 00:11:55 that'll benefit you the rest of your life, but you don't have to be a lawyer because I didn't really want to be one. So that was a great selling point for it as well. But if I didn't do those things, I think my choices in life would have been a little bit more limited. I've always felt this, that there are certain things in life that are have to and there are things that are want to. And I think if you, at least in my life, taking care of the have to things well has made a good part of my life want to now. Like I get to make, I make decisions based upon what I want to do now because I, at least my way of thinking, I took care of the have-to things in life, at least fairly well.

Starting point is 00:12:38 What do you mean by have-to? Like going to school, doing those things, being good at sports, or what were the half-toes that you took care of to now lead you to be able to do the want-toes? Yeah, like educating myself. You know, those are, you don't have any choice in going to school when you're a young person. And so you're going to be there. you might as well take advantage of it to the best of your ability.

Starting point is 00:12:58 And I don't think it takes a genius to figure out that the more time you put in, the focus time, you're going to get things out on the back end of it. So if I had not taken the effort to get a decent education and to go to law school, my choices would have been limited. And when I talk about some of the have-to things, like, you know, when you get married, have a family, you know, those are obligations. There's a lot of have-to involved in that. And, you know, you have to provide.

Starting point is 00:13:26 And you have to put your family in the best possible situation. And but I've been able to choose, I've been able to do what I want to do in order to achieve the have to part of that. And, you know, I've been able to choose to be a broadcaster. You know, that's a fun thing to do. I enjoy this. And there's not been a day in my life as a broadcaster where I felt like I've had to work. it's not worked to me. But, you know, if it were a situation where I wouldn't be able to provide for my family,

Starting point is 00:13:59 you know, I wouldn't be able to make that want-to choice. I'd have to go to have to route. Speaking of that, so, you know, after law school, you did practice law. And I remember reading about, as I was preparing for our time together, reading about that, you were offered $200, I believe, to go broadcast games on, was it local radio? And you've stated that that was still one of the most enjoyable jobs. you've you ever had as you were practicing law. Not that part wasn't the most enjoyable, but the

Starting point is 00:14:27 radio gig for what, in comparison to probably what you're making today was a very small sum of money. And so it sounds like you went from, you were doing some of the have to and you started branching out to some of the things you wanted to do and it's led to where you are now. Yeah, I was really lucky that when I started practicing law full time, you know, I got a phone call and was offered a job essentially to do college games on the radio. And the pay was not very good. It was a couple hundred bucks a game. And it was difficult to juggle that with my law practice because I had to drive a couple

Starting point is 00:15:04 hours to a game or sometimes I'd have to fly to a game. And so it took a lot of time out of my practice, my law practice that I couldn't afford to give up on. So I was in the office all night, all morning, things like that, trying to make up for the time that I missed. And back when I was starting, you didn't. have the same kind of opportunities to work remote from the office like you do now with all the technology. So it made it really difficult. But it was really an enjoyable thing. It got me out of the

Starting point is 00:15:30 office. It was fun. I got to see my friends. And it's kind of like we were talking before about consistent excellence. Like back then I was a broadcaster. You know, the only difference now is I'm a more of a famous broadcaster because of the platform I've got at ESPN. The job hasn't changed at all. So if I was still in that job as a radio broadcaster, I would hope that my level and my standard wouldn't change for performance. It's just now it's a lot more high profile. And that's kind of what I meant about the standard of excellence before, that there are broadcasters out there of people in every endeavor that are doing as good a job, if not better, than the jobs you see, you know, you see guys like me or other broadcasters at ESPN do. They're phenomenal. They just don't have, it's not the same platform, or they've chosen to live in an area that doesn't allow them to do that.

Starting point is 00:16:23 So you can be a broadcaster in a lot of different places and reach an incredible standard of excellence. You know, now, if you want to be a famous broadcaster, there may be a different route that you take. And that's what I was talking about before. I've been fortunate that I've achieved, I guess, a certain amount of celebrity from being on ESPN. But I don't think the job is fundamentally changed from the first day I started. to doing it. What year was that first job for a couple hundred bucks on radio? That was 1993. I had just ended my time as an assistant coach at Duke. I was a graduate assistant there while I was in law school. And when I got married, my wife and I had determined,

Starting point is 00:17:06 you know, coaching may not be the best thing for our family life. So, you know, we decided to go the route of the stable kind of practicing lawyer. And the broadcasting thing was always an interest of mine. It was something that I'd always wanted to do and try. And it made itself available. And I thought, you know, rather than look at it and say, you know, this just going to be too hard, it's only a couple hundred bucks a game. It's not a great offer. It's not life-changing. My thing was, you know what? It is going to be hard, but it might be fun. And if I, if it's too much, I'll quit. But I'm not going to quit before I start. So I'm going to try this. And if I don't like it. If it doesn't work out, I'll admit it and I'll move on. But I'm not going to turn down an

Starting point is 00:17:49 opportunity to do something I want to do because it's going to be hard. I'll figure it out and I'll do it. And so how long from 1993 and then what were the steps to get to ESPN? I was doing games on the radio for a couple of years. So I think it was around 95 that one of the stations that carried our games was WBT and Charlotte. And I didn't realize this at the time and I still kind of don't understand it, but at night, the signal for WBT would go all up and down the East Coast. Now, I'm told, I don't know, a lot of times this becomes urban legend or myth or something, but I'm told that somebody heard me. And I was offered a game on ESPN. I did a big South championship game between UNC Greensboro and Charleston Southern

Starting point is 00:18:36 in March of 95. And that was my first game for ESPN. I've been doing games with them now for 20, whatever it is, 21 years. And one thing led to another, and I got more work the next year and more work the year after that. And I just, you know, you get an opportunity. And I did, you know, I didn't throw up all over myself. And I did well enough where they gave me some more. And I just, that's the way I did it. And I didn't, I didn't leave my law practice until it was as good of an opportunity as I was giving up.

Starting point is 00:19:05 Because I had, you know, I had young kids and a wife and a house and a mortgage and all that stuff. And I wanted to make sure that I did right by them first. I'm one of the things I really love to study about people who have, who have had this excellence, as you say, over a period of time, is preparation prior to their work. So I'm curious about what your preparation was then back in 1993, 1993, 1995, and if it's changed at all, and maybe because there's so much of a, there's social media,

Starting point is 00:19:35 there's probably better technology to study film, there's different things you can do that, you know, we have iPads and things like that. So I'm curious about how you prepare because the one thing I've noticed when I watch you do games, when I watch you in the studio analyzing things, you don't seem to ever bring something up unless you are for sure, you have the fact, maybe this is the lawyer in you. You have like the evidence that it's fact-based reasoning, whereas there are other people on TV who just shout and say things that they may think.

Starting point is 00:20:05 And that's the biggest differentiator is probably why you have so many fans and people enjoy. watching you on TV. What's your preparation like? What's that process look like for you? I think whatever the method of preparation that I have now is a combination of what I learned as a basketball player, my time as a basketball coach, and then as a lawyer. As you know, as you know, if you're going to play ball or coach it, there's far more that goes into your preparation as a player than just showing up. You know, you have to, you have to, you have to, you have to, you have to spend time scouting and, and that's, you know, the preparation for that can be really intense. And then I don't think I've ever done anything that required me to prepare as hard and as much

Starting point is 00:20:51 as being a lawyer, that when you walked into an arbitration, a mediation, you walked into court for a motion hearing or a trial, I don't think I've ever put in the kind of preparation I did as a lawyer. So those things help me immensely. But in my job now, I'm totally immersed in in basketball. So everything I do every day is in preparation for my job. It may not be for a specific assignment, but I feel like I need to know everything about the game that I can. I'm constantly going to clinics.

Starting point is 00:21:25 I'm constantly watching film, and it has become easier with the technology over the years. And I'm constantly reading, talking to people. So being immersed in it day to day, I don't feel like I'm like preparing for just one game and then I move on to preparing for the next game, if that makes sense. It's more of a global thing. I still do heavy preparation for if I've got a game coming up. I'll do heavy preparation for that game, but I've already got what I hope is a pretty good base of knowledge from my immersion in the game that allows me to really focus on, you know, sort of the individual things that I have to do, the individual assignments.

Starting point is 00:22:03 but I try, you know, I appreciate the compliment. I try really hard that any time I speak, any opinion that I give, as long as I give an informed opinion, I feel really good about it. Doesn't mean I'm always going to be right, but I feel I have a responsibility that whatever opinion I give is an informed one. Do you, when you watch other people on TV, and I'm not trying to, you know, get you in trouble about talking poorly about ESPN guys, so not just ESPN, but any TV station, when you watch guys who,

Starting point is 00:22:33 You know, this debate-type format on TV seems to draw ratings and thus, thus get the cash for any network. What's your thought process when you watch that, or if you see that type of behavior where it isn't informed, it's not necessarily based in fact. It's yelling. It's, you know, that type of stuff that I think a lot of people are, especially if you read, you know, a lot of a blog type things of people who follow. And I think you probably read some of those from time to time. people who follow sportscasters or things on TV. What is your thought process when you see that type of stuff? Well, I don't have any problem with the opinions that are given on television or the radio, things like that.

Starting point is 00:23:17 To me, you know, if it's an informed opinion, the volume doesn't matter. Like if somebody shouts an informed opinion, that's fine. If somebody whispers an uninformed opinion, I'm not particularly interested in that no matter of the volume. I understand how the business works that the debate culture we've got now gets more people engaged. I think the thing that I try hardest on is, I think we have a responsibility with regard to the different topics that we have to treat them in a certain fashion. So it's one thing to have a shouting debate over who the best quarterback in the NFL is. That's a fun barroom debate that is of very little consequence in the long run. When you start talking about issues regarding, I don't know, domestic violence or NCAA sanctions on a coach, things like that that have very real impact on people's lives, I think it requires a little more of a sanguine approach.

Starting point is 00:24:18 It doesn't mean that you still can't get exercised over it. But I'm not sure that that's in the same realm as, you know, who should be number one in the college football playoff rankings in November, if that makes sense. Yeah, completely. So speaking up, speaking on some of these topics that I personally and millions of people love to, to follow you on, and this is close to my heart because I, you know, I'm a former collegiate athlete played football at Ohio University. I'm a part of Ed O'Bannon's his clash action lawsuit about the NCAA using our likeness for a number of things, mainly in video games. So there's a chance at some point. I may, see a few dollars for it. And I know you are a huge proponent for, I don't want to put words in your

Starting point is 00:25:07 mouth, but essentially you're against some of the things that the NCAA does when it comes to not allowing student athletes to profit over their likeness over, and really you want them to be treated just as any other student would be when it comes to making money or whatever it may be. So I'd love to dive into that topic right now because I know it's a hot topic that you've done a phenomenal job of supporting the student athlete as they are called. And I know we laugh at that term, but I know that's something you've really talked a lot about. Bloomberg called you the NCAA critic who can't be ignored. So I'd love to hear more about that from you now. Well, you know, Ryan, I first preface it by saying, I love college sports. I'm a product of it,

Starting point is 00:25:52 as are you. I loved every minute of it. I love every minute of it now. There's nothing wrong with college sports. I have some policy differences with the NCAA and they go about the business. But I'm also very pro-education. I mean, I did my, I did my job as a student when I was in school and, you know, I went to law school

Starting point is 00:26:14 and all that. I don't think anybody could look at me with the education of the players. I don't believe that education and sports or education and money are mutually exclusive. I think you can do all those things at one time. And my thing comes

Starting point is 00:26:31 from the idea that, you know, the rhetoric of the NCAA doesn't match up with the action, that this is a multi-billion dollar industry that is professional in every way except how the athletes treated. And, you know, the athlete gets his or her expenses and that's it, while everybody else is getting their fair market value. And I happen to feel that if the athletes are over billions of dollars, they're old enough and mature enough to be able to benefit. I don't mean that they should be paid. I mean that they should be allowed to be paid if if an institution, you know, just like with any other student education tied to amateurism. They're not required to be amateurs.

Starting point is 00:27:17 They can write a book. They can win a peal with surprise. They can make a million dollars with a recording contract. They can do whatever they want. And their papers aren't graded differently. They don't have different requirements for a degree. So players are used as billboards. The schools are making a $50 million apparel deal with Nike.

Starting point is 00:27:41 And the players don't get any choice in what gear they're going to wear. They have to wear that stuff that the school is contracted with Nike to wear. And it's great. There's no problem with it, but why can't the players be involved in that? Because Nike's paying that money because they want the apparel on the players. They're not paying it for any other reason. So I think the players should be allowed to benefit. And I still think they can go to school.

Starting point is 00:28:03 It doesn't mean they won't be students anymore. The schools can have whatever the standards and requirements. A blanket rule where the entire industry agrees that they won't give the athlete more than a scholar that I think violates federal antitrust law. And it seems like the courts are starting to do long term. But sports, I've made a lot of money. It's been my life. But when I see something wrong with it, I don't feel like I should stay silent about it.

Starting point is 00:28:41 I think I get pointed out in a reasonable fashion and have a reasonable discussion about it. And that's what I've chosen to do. I can tell you, my life would be so much easier if I just kept my mouth shut and talked about who the best player is and who the best team is. But I feel like I'd be doing a disservice to the job. When you love something and there's something wrong with it, you point it out. You just don't write out your own string and get to your own finish line and let somebody else deal with it after you. Yeah, I love that you do it, though. I mean, I think obviously you know millions of others do.

Starting point is 00:29:19 But it's funny when you read quotes from Mark Emmert saying the head of the NCAA who makes over $1.4 million a year, he said, I certainly appreciate Jay's passion for the game and his knowledge of basketball. However, I dare say I know more about running complex organizations than he does. When you hear that, what do you think? Well, I mean, you know, Mark is a good guy. He's got a very thin skin. And that is a very, that's a reflection of thin skin. Because, you know, I mean, look, I could easily say there's not a lot of evidence that he knows more about running.

Starting point is 00:29:56 running those organizations that I do. But, you know, look, he's in a tough spot. I happen to think that when people like me are critical of NCAA policy, that if the policy is so good, the NCAA should be able to justify it with relative ease. They can't do it. And when you make billions of dollars and you're selling these players and it's such an action in industry, it's hard to then turn around and say, but it's not a business.

Starting point is 00:30:27 And you've got to remember, these are just, kids and only 2% of them go on to have careers. So they shouldn't, you know, you kind of go, well, if it's only 2% that go on, and that's, that's how you're measuring whether you're going to provide more to the athlete. Why are you putting this much resource and time into the endeavor when it's such a small amount? You know, look, there's a huge business, and there's nothing wrong with that. I think the NCAA should make all the money they can.

Starting point is 00:30:55 I think it's great that the coaches are paid this amount of money. I have zero probable. And I have zero problem with Mark Emmer making $1.8 or $2 million, whatever it is now. A year, that's fine. That's his fair market value. The problem I have is when we're all making this amount of money, we somehow tried to rationalize the fact that we are limiting the players for making anything. And that's where the rub is.

Starting point is 00:31:18 And it's not going to go away. As you know, it is getting worse because the money is continuing while they say, hey, where's the money going to come from? And they act like it's a zero-sum game. the money keeps going up. And so what they do is they pay each other more, they make more, and then they claim at the end, well, we still don't have any money. And that's just not going to fly because they said that when you and I were in school.

Starting point is 00:31:41 They said, well, where are we going to get the money to provide them with more? Back when they were only making hundreds of millions of dollars, now they're making billions, and still they say they don't have enough money. And so the idea that the athlete has to be taken care of after everyone else. and only with if we have anything left over could we consider giving the athlete more is just crazy talk. And it's a way of putting the debate off like this, sort of the idea of where we're going to get the money.

Starting point is 00:32:10 There's no money. Where are we going to get the money? Well, you know, they never say that when they pay a coach more money. They never say, well, the wrestling programs can have to go away because we're paying the coach more. That's not part of the debate. But look, back to your original question. I empathize with Mark Emmer and the great people that work.

Starting point is 00:32:27 within the NCAA structure. They've got a difficult argument to make, and they're losing. They're losing in court. They're losing in the court of public opinion. It's starting to erode. And it's not starting to. It's eroding. And I think it's going to further erode.

Starting point is 00:32:43 I wish that it wasn't battled out in the courts, and they would just do what I consider to be the right thing of their own volition. But, you know, I'm not suing them. Other people are. And they've got to take that as a – This is not going to stop. This is going to continue on into the future. If you had his job, what are the first, you know,

Starting point is 00:33:03 what are your first key initiatives, the priorities that you work to implement? I'm not asking you for the full-blown solution because it's very complex and that would take hours. But I'm asking you, what are the first things you would do in order to get to the right place? Well, the first thing I would do is I would reduce the size of Division I and have the institutions that want to compete at the highest level altogether. so that they could make their own legislation and they could run their business the way they want to. What we're seeing, as you know, is that there are 350 Division I institutions. It might be even more than $350 now in basketball alone. And nobody's leaving.

Starting point is 00:33:42 So when they talk about how expensive it is, how nobody can pay for it, they can pay for it because people are, you know, more institutions are trying to get into Division I and nobody's leaving. So, you know, I would do that. And then I would also have sports-specific governance, that instead of having everybody under one ridiculous rulebook, I would have basketball under their own rulebook. I would have football under their own rule book, all that stuff, so they can govern themselves the way they choose. And then lastly, it wouldn't be lastly, but it would be one of the first things. I would govern the NCAA. They would have to stay in their lane.

Starting point is 00:34:17 that the NCAA should be an athletic association that administers championships, and basically that's it. They would get out of the eligibility business. They would not be duplicating what institutions do and admitting their students and educating their students, and it would be about the administration of championships. And the rules we would worry about was if you step out of bounds, it's my ball. You know, if I file you in the active shooting, you get two shots, you know, it's not that hard. We're talking about sports here. We're not transporting heavy explosives.

Starting point is 00:34:48 We're not bringing drugs to market. We don't need this gigantic compliance industry that we've got. And I would pare that down and make it – I would force the NCAA to stay in its lane and let these institutions of higher learning make their own decisions on how they want to deal with this. And it's really not that difficult. We don't have any rules on whether you can build a hospital or not. There are no rules as to facilities and what you can spend on facilities and how you handle mental. issues. They can decide how long to practice. They can decide what they're going to provide to a

Starting point is 00:35:21 player. We don't need all this over-regulation on simple issues. So let's say you did get the job and you could hire your dream team of your support staff, your people who would implement and do this with you. And no matter who you asked, those people would say yes. So regardless of what they're currently doing, who are the first phone calls you make to say, hey, I have this big task. You know, money's no object. Who are the first people that you would say, I want to work with you to make this thing happen? You know, Ryan, I don't know that it would change that kind of thing, you know, in our crazy hypothetical, because they would never ask me to do anything like this.

Starting point is 00:35:59 But I don't know that people would change because the people that work within the NCAA structure, both in the office in Indianapolis and in member institutions, are great people. And it's just they're working under policies and directives that I don't consider to be all the right thing. But if we were to have policy change, like it's not like people, just for an example, like people within the structure 20 years ago,

Starting point is 00:36:26 were all against players getting a stipend to the point that they would attack with torches and pitchforks if it ever came and quit their jobs if they ever came in, they're fine with it. You know, they just need to be given directives and they'll serve. because they're all very smart, very able, and they want to do the right thing. But they're hamstrung by the policies.

Starting point is 00:36:47 So the policies would have to change more than anything. And there's some old school thinking there that would have to change, but I don't think I would necessarily change people. I got you. It makes sense. You know, some of the other things you've done, like I said, we were hit on this NCAA thing, but you've written a great book called Toughness that I read right when it came out. I reread it getting ready for our conversation.

Starting point is 00:37:08 But another video I watched was a commencement speech. you gave at Queen's University in Charlotte in 2014. And I loved it. I thought it was a phenomenal mix of humor with really good practical advice to these kids. And I actually do believe they will remember what you said, even though you mentioned that, you know they won't. But one of the things you talked about, and this is something I talk about a lot of my podcast here, is comfort zones. And you said, you need to be a little bit nervous. A little bit of fear is a good thing.

Starting point is 00:37:37 Can you expand on that statement when you were telling the graduating students of Queens University? Because I think this could go not just to people who are graduating college, but to anybody. Well, I've always got a healthy fear of failure that when I go, even now after doing this for so many years, whenever I go on television, I have butterflies and nervousness. Not to the point of being paralyzed in fear, but I want to do well. I'm always worried about or concerned with. I'm not worried about. I'm concerned with being prepared. And so as I approach something, I have that feeling of performance anxiety, if you will,

Starting point is 00:38:20 that I want to do well. And it's good. I think that's good. I think it's good to have that. You know, before I play golf with my friends and, you know, before I tee up in a member guest or something where there's competition on the line, I've got nerves. You know, I want to play well. I want to do well.

Starting point is 00:38:36 And so I think those are good things. And so I always want to keep that, and I never want to have my job become routine. And I'll tell you, a quick story, you know, like we talked before about me being very lucky to still be around Coach K as often as I am. I was with him this last summer when he was with the U.S. national team, essentially the Olympic basketball team when they were going through a training camp. And they had an exhibition game at the end of this three or four-day training camp. And, you know, it's not a competition year, so it wasn't the most intense training camp. It was more getting everybody together and sort of celebrating their culture and keeping everybody on the same page for what they're going to do next year or this next summer in Rio in 2016. But while he was talking to the team and I mean, you talk about LeBron James, you know, Paul George, all these guys.

Starting point is 00:39:23 He told them about the exhibition game and here's the schedule for the day. And then he said, when you guys get back to your rooms, your rooms, your uniforms are going to be in there. And so I want you to do something. I want you to layer uniform out of the bed and just, like, you guys get back to your rooms, your hotel rooms are going to be in there. and just look at it. And think about how cool this is. That, you know, there was a time when you got your first uniform, maybe your first uniform when you were in grade school or your first high school uniform

Starting point is 00:39:47 or the first time you put a uniform on in the NBA. And it came with a certain feeling. But I've really thought about that. Like, I get to do all these great games and have all these wonderful experiences that I've always dreamed about. And I need to continue to remember that I wanted to do this. and I'm doing it and I'm really damn lucky to be doing it and I need to treat it as special every day. Love that perspective, Jay.

Starting point is 00:40:15 I got one more question. I know we're up against it and so I'm very grateful for you being here. So it's really about the whole purpose behind my show. I love the art and science and the study of leadership. I love learning from others from great inspirational people who have, who have done big things in their lives who have continued excellence as you've put it. And so I'm curious to get your take. when you hear the phrase learning leader, what's the first thing that comes to mind?

Starting point is 00:40:42 Humility. I've been lucky, like you have, to be around a lot of great people and great leaders. And one of them has been the outgoing chairman of the Joint Sheets of Staff, Martin Dempsey. And General Dempsey talks a lot about the most important things for a leader, character and competence and humility. That you have to be, you have to master your craft. You have to have competence in your job. You have to have tremendous character, but you also have to have humility.

Starting point is 00:41:12 And I think anybody who, when you say learning leader, you have to have the humility to understand that you don't know everything. And if you're going to lead people, you have to lead from a position of humility first. Not that you're not confident in your abilities and your ability to lead, but that they understand that you know it's not all about you. and, you know, it's we over me. And, you know, I thought about that a lot, the idea that, you know, you hear people say a lot, almost reflectively that, you know, play the name on the front rather the name on the back. I get that.

Starting point is 00:41:46 But, you know, my thing has been, you know, you want a we first culture, but it's we over me, but not exclusive of me. Because great organizations are made up of really good means. And you don't want people, you don't want people necessarily checking their egos of the door. You want them bringing their egos with them. You have great people and you want those people to be able to do their jobs to the best of their ability without being some sort of we first only. There is no me. There's only we. I don't believe that. I love it. This is so good. Again, Jay, I really appreciate you investing your time here with us here in the learning

Starting point is 00:42:26 leader show. It means a lot to me that you do it. I know you're right in the middle of a ton of other things going on. So thank you so much for being here. Is there any place you want to steer people to go and read more about anything, whether it's your book or anything online. Obviously, I would encourage everyone to go check out your Twitter feed, but you already have over a million people doing that, but at Jay Billis on Twitter. But is there anything anywhere else you'd want to steer people to go? No, most of my writings are on ESPN.com, and that's where I wind up, putting most of my stuff. So I would stir people there.

Starting point is 00:42:55 And also, it's got the best college basketball content, so it's a good plug for what we do. Absolutely, absolutely. Well, thanks again, Jay. I really appreciate this talk and learned a lot, and I look forward to continuing to dialogue, man, as we both progress. Ryan, thank you. It's a pleasure being with you.

Starting point is 00:43:10 Thanks so much. All right, talk soon. Bye. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to Learning Leadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you.

Starting point is 00:43:28 You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again and we'll see you next time on the Learning Leader Show.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 073: Jay Bilas – World Class ESPN Basketball Broadcaster, Toughness, Fixing The N

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