The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 081: Oliver Luck – EVP For NCAA: Paying College Athletes & Being Andrew Luck's Dad

Episode Date: December 17, 2015

Episode 081: Oliver Luck – EVP For NCAA: Paying College Athletes & Being Andrew Luck’s Dad Oliver Luck is an incredibly interesting person.  He truly understands the importance of an intense focus on continuous improvement.  I really appreciate Oliver’s willingness to discuss some controversial topics as well as his ability to compromise for the betterment of student athletes today.  We are extremely fortunate to have Oliver share his knowledge with us, the loyal listeners of The Learning Leader Show.  Oliver Luck works for the NCAA as the Executive Vice President for regulatory affairs, in charge of the organization's regulatory functions. Prior to that, he was Director of Intercollegiate Athletes at West Virginia University, his alma mater. Earlier in his life, Oliver spent five seasons in the NFL as a quarterback for the Houston Oilers. He is the father of Indianapolis Colts quarterback Andrew Luck.  Andrew was the 1st overall draft choice in the 2012 NFL Draft. Episode 081: Oliver Luck – EVP for NCAA: Paying College Athletes & Being Andrew Luck’s Dad Subscribe on iTunes  or Stitcher Radio The Learning Leader Show “Great leaders have intellectual curiosity mixed with some stubbornness.” Some Questions I Ask: What are the common characteristics of people who have sustained success? What are your thoughts on kids “playing up” a level in sports? Why did Mark Emmert hire you for this NCAA role? Don’t you believe a player (such as your son) should be compensated for all of his jersey sales? What needs to happen for a player to be paid for his/her likeness? What was your parenting philosophy?  How were you able to raise such successful kids? What types of feelings are created by you watching Andrew play in the NFL? What does being a learning leader mean to you?   In This Episode, You Will Learn: The importance in being a little bit stubborn “Playing Up” and the power of playing against great competition Why it’s bad for your children to focus on one sport Going to law school in the off-season Being friends with Archie Manning His process for securing fantastic jobs after his NFL career was over Why raising his family in Europe was beneficial The importance of taking a complicated message and making it clear “Have a vision for where you want people to go.” Continue Learning: Read: Is Andrew Luck's Dad The NCAA's White Knight? Read: Oliver Luck Joins NCAA Watch: Jay Bilas & Oliver Luck Debate NCAA Topics You may also like these episodes: Episode 001: How To Become A Master Connector With Jayson Gaignard From MasterMind Talks Episode 034: Jimmy Hatch – Shot While Searching For Bowe Bergdahl And Sky Diving With Gabby Giffords Episode 004: How Todd Wagner (and Mark Cuban) Sold Broadcast.com To Yahoo! For $5.7 Billion Episode 010: Shane Snow – How To Accelerate Success Using Smart Cuts Did you enjoy the podcast? This was a jam packed episode full of great content.  Oliver Luck is a leader who is constantly learning in order to help us all live a better life. Who do you know that needs to hear this?  Send them to The Learning Leader Show! Episode edited by the great J Scott Donnell Bio Oliver Luck works for the NCAA as the Executive Vice President for regulatory affairs, in charge of the organization's regulatory functions. Prior to that, he was Director of Intercollegiate Athletes at West Virginia University, his alma mater. Earlier in his life, Oliver spent five seasons in the NFL as a quarterback for the Houston Oilers.  He is the father of Indianapolis Colts quarterback Andrew Luck.  Andrew was the 1st overall draft choice in the 2012 NFL Draft.

What I really like about what I'm doing in college athletics and what a lot of people are doing in this industry is I really do believe that we're helping create leaders every day. You know, and that's not happening in a lot of places in this country. You know, it's happening in the military. It happens in other extracurriculars, so it's not just in athletics. But I really feel good about young men and women, you know, coming out of college athletics, big school, small school, doesn't matter, public, private, religious. stay, you know, sports irrelevant. We're creating people that, you know, come out with better leadership skills than they went in with, you know, and that's, I think, a great contribution to society.

Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. Hey and welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawke. So excited and thrilled with tonight's episode and our featured leader, it's Oliver Luck.

He's a former NFL quarterback who actually went to law school during the off-season while he was playing in the league. After retiring from the NFL, he then eventually went on to become the CEO of NFL Europe, where he was tasked with building the brand and the awareness of the league overseas. It's also where he had some of his children and raised them for over 10 years. Interesting part that we'll talk about. He then wanted to become the athletic director at his alma mater, West Virginia University. And in January of 2015, he was hired as the Executive Vice President for Regulatory Affairs of the NCAA. Really interesting a career arc he's had.

He's also a dad to four children, most notably Andrew Luck, current Indianapolis Colts quarterback, who was the first overall draft pick after having an incredible. career at Stanford. Some of the things we got into tonight discussed his biggest learnings and his new role with the NCAA and some potential solutions to problems that currently exist. And I loved how Oliver seems to be so willing to get to those solutions, even using compromise at times. And I thought that was a really interesting part of our conversation. I think you will too. And then being a great parent, his philosophy on leading and parenting.

This part of the conversation I found, I was fascinated by it for mainly because the tone of his voice changes. You'll hear when listening to the second part of the conversation where he simply doesn't want to take credit for being a great dad. I found him to, he doesn't like to give parenting

advice, that's obvious, even though he's asked about it on a daily basis, and he wants to credit others and not himself for being a great dad. Even though once we dove in a little bit, you'll hear some of the stories and the way he's raised his children, that that's why they've become who they are. A fascinating part. I think you guys will love it.

Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, it's Oliver Luck. All right, Oliver, so excited to have you here on The Learning Leader Show. Got a quick question, man, to get us going, and that's around sustained excellence, people who have done big things in their lives for a number of years. And you're obviously someone who has sustained excellence in a number of different life categories over time. and you've spent time around others who have done that as well. So I'd love to hear from your perspective. What are some common characteristics that those people all seem to share?

Well, you know, it's a very interesting question. I imagine there are sort of what I would call red threads, you know, that link people who consistently seem to have, you know, success in whatever space they're in. I would think that one is that people are never satisfied, you know, doing great athletes, prepare for a game or a contest, play in that contest, and, you know, quickly after the contest, sort of review it. What do I do well?

Where can I learn? What can I take out of this contest? But then very quickly they're focused on the next contest, right? They don't reflect too long. And I think that's true. I mean, you want to draw lessons from your experiences, but you also don't want to get sort of captured by the past. So I think that, you know,

a characteristic that folks have who seem to have consistent success is that they never dwell on the past, they spend a certain amount of time, you know, learning lessons from the past, but sort of move on relatively quickly. I think that's important. I think it's also important to be intellectually curious, right? You know, whether you're an athlete or not, because I think by asking questions of both the past and the present, you know, you kind of set yourself up for a framework that would help you in the future.

So I look at people in the business world, you know, that I have to have success in multiple businesses. And I think that a common thread there is that they just are intellectually curious. They want to understand everything there is to know about a certain business or a certain space or a certain industry or whatever it may be because they figure if they can synthesize all that information, they can sort of, you know, be able to cut down to the very basic, right, at what is at issue, the core. And if you understand the core of a business, I think you can figure out a way to have some success in that. business. And I think the third thing is quite honestly, you know, people that seem to have continued success are stubborn. I mean, Thomas Edison said it well, something along the lines of, you know, I don't look at a thousand failed experiments as failures. I look at them as, you know,

taking those thousand experiments and realizing what doesn't work, you know, so that narrows the field to what will work, right? They're just good old-fashioned stubborn with enough you know, sort of sense of mind to be flexible where they have to, but just good old-fashioned, persistence, perseverance, I think, is important. You know, you can't give up too quickly or else you won't, you know, accomplish much of anything. Do a few people pop in your mind when you think of this sustained excellence over time? Oh, gosh, there's, you know, there's a lot of people. There's, you know, great musicians, there's, you know, business people, there's athletes. I really, like people, you know, that have sustained, you know, have a profile in different spaces.

And, you know, which tells me that they can be successful, for example, what young person in today's world, you know, knows who Roger Staubeck was, right? Unless you're a Cowboys fan or went to the Naval Academy or, you know, went to, grew up in Cincinnati, which is Rogers' hometown. But a lot of people in the real estate business today, even young ones know of the same. Stauback companies, right? Hugely successful real estate operation, representing tenants, owners, you name it. And, you know, so Roger Stauback's a guy who obviously has had incredible success as an athlete. Incredible success is a Naval Academy graduate and, you know, someone who served the country and, you know, built a multi-billion dollar business.

So some people don't know that he played football. That's awesome, right? Because he's reinvented himself in a sense and has pursued, obviously, a passion in his built something that's remarkable. And that's pretty cool, you know. So I mean, there's a lot of people, I think, that fit into that category, which tells me that they just have, they found sort of the recipe that serves them well, regardless of what space it is, whether it's athletics or business or education or whatever it may be.

I think a lot of people who know you and read and understand your story would say something similar. And I'd love to dive into that right now as far as your career. in your history. I mean, whether it's, you know, from being an athlete and the things that you've done since that, whether it's law school, going overseas, certainly I think it's interesting now with everything that you've accomplished, that there's a certain fraction of the listeners who would know you as simply Andrew Luck's dad, which I'm sure has to be a point of huge pride, but also to say, well, there's a lot of other things here with Oliver Luck. And so I'd love to dive into your story now, Oliver, if we could, dating back to, you know, your football career and to what you decided to do post your post-football life. Sure. Happy to talk about that. So tell me where you want to jump where I should jump in.

Well, you were, you played in college at West Virginia and then, you know, you're the third, the third quarterback taken. And it's interesting after a guy, the first one that year was Arch Sleister, a guy here who grew up close to where I am and here in Ohio. And Jim McMahon happened to be in that draft as well. and so I'd love to hear from, and then Warren Moon comes into play where you are with the Oilers. So I'd love to hear from your football career and then why you specifically made the decisions you did once you were done playing football. Well, I was drafted by the Houston Oilers towards the bottom of the second round in 1982. And at the time, Gifford Nielsen was a quarterback down there. Kenny Stadler was at the end of his career in my rookie year, which was a strike year.

I think we only played seven, nine games. I can't remember anymore. So that was sort of an unusual year to be a rookie. And during that season, the older was signed Archie Manning, who had kind of finished his career in New Orleans. And she got to know Archie, which was really awesome based on the fact that got to know

all three of his boys and his wife, Olivia. We're still a very good family friends, which includes Andrew and Peyton and Eli. But I was, you know, I realized fairly quickly that my physical limitations would put me in a position to be a backup, maybe a good backup, but that's about it. I didn't have really the size of the stature to even then to play week in, week out in the NFL. It's a professional football was and is, remains today, a really tough physical game.

I decided that I would use my off-season's, I don't know, intelligently. I'm not a golfer, so I'd no desire to go out in golf. So in that era, in the 80s, you know, you really had four or five months off. You know, you had to stay in shape, but you really didn't have some of the obligations that today's NFL players do. So I went to law school at both South Texas College of Law and eventually the University of Texas at Austin Law School. graduated from University of Texas law school. And when I was finishing law, finishing my academic work, I decided, you know,

I played five years. I'm a backup. I'm playing behind Warren Moon, who was a great player, Hall of Fame. You know, Warren and I are still close friends, but, you know, there was no, no, I wasn't going to end up in the Hall of Fame. So it was a relatively easy decision. And I still had, you know, had my health in terms of knees

and shoulders and all that. suffered a few concussions, but that's the case with everybody in the league. So, retired, and long story short, had an opportunity to soon get back into the sports business working for NFL Europe, which at the time was a venture launched by the NFL to really popularize the sport over in Europe and begin sort of building a foundation that, you know, has actually, you can see it today with the preseason games that, I'm sorry, the regular season games that the league is doing over in London, and I think soon in some of the other European capitals. So I had a chance to get into the sports business, and like most

former athletes, when you have an opportunity to get into the sports business, I thought, wow, this is great. You know, this is something that is interesting. You understand it, sort of implicitly, you know, from having played. So really up, from that point on, which was 1990, you know, I've been actively involved in a number of different organizations, ML, with the Houston Dynamo, obviously the NFL for a number of years. College athletics is the AD at My Alma Mater, West Virginia. Now with the NCAA, I also spent five years running a group that financed and built and leased the three big stadiums in Houston, which was a great experience for me to learn about bonding and construction and where you find public money to build sports venues.

So I've enjoyed a pretty interesting career. in the sports industry. But what's interesting is every sort of step along the way you learn certain things that you really will use outside of that particular context, but use for benefits. So I learned things, you know, during the 10 years I was over in Europe that I absolutely used running the dynamo and even used today with the NCAA. So, you know, life is sort of one long learning journey

and things that you pick up along the way. You tend to keep those and use those consistently. Ten years in Europe. Wow. That's quite a time of a chunk of your life to be there. Were you, was this in the middle of being married and having kids as well? Yeah. So my wife and I got married in 88.

We moved over to Europe in 90, and three of the four kids were born over there. My mother was born and raised in Germany. She emigrated to the U.S. in the late 50s. So I've got lots of family over there. Oh, okay. And, you know, I mean, if you have any sort of inter-11 intellectual curiosity, I've always thought that living overseas is a great way to explore that intellectual curiosity in terms of seeing new things, different cultures, different languages. My mother, as I mentioned, is German, so I speak the language fluently, and got a chance to travel all over the place.

The kids saw really a lot more, I think, from growing up over there, or at least, for example, in Andrew's case, he was 11 when we moved back. So he was old enough to experience a lot. So we're very grateful for the chance to have spent a decade over there. Yeah, I got to believe that could help culture a kid growing up overseas and then coming back and just having perspective too on the way things are. It seems like, you know, we'll get into it. I think the conversation about being a great husband and dad, which I'm really impressed with based on the ability of, you know, how your children have done so well. But I wanted to touch first on about your current role that was really created by Mark Emert of the NCAA.

And that's the executive vice president for regulatory affairs, which was created, I believe, about a year ago, correct? Yeah. For you and for you to do it and work with the NCAA. This is after being, like I said, you covered it, but working at West Virginia as a athletic director and a number of other things leading up to that. So one, how did this whole thing come about with becoming, working for the NCAA, working with Mark Emmer, what was the process like for you getting that role?

There are three regulatory divisions at the NCAA, and the position that I have today oversees those three. And in the past, those regulatory divisions, one is called enforcement, self-explanatory. One is the eligibility center. We basically certify incoming student athletes for both academics and amateurism. And then the third unit is called AMA Academic and Membership Affairs, which is a lot of, you know, where all the waivers come from, where all the legislation comes from, in terms to the many bylaws that we have, they come out of. AMA. So those three regulatory spaces all deal on a daily basis with campus, right? And those three were reporting the different executives at the NCAA. They were disjointed. And effectively,

what Mark did with creating this position is try to create some unity of purpose, try to you know, build, to break down the silos, if you will, in those three groups so that we could cooperate better. Because if you're on campus, you know, and if you have an issue with the national office regarding a student athlete, you're often touching at least two, if not three, of those groups. And we weren't providing very good customer service to campus folks. So there was a belief within a national office that it made sense to create an executive position that oversaw those three units and created, you know, a consistent regulatory experience for the people on campus. You know, our goal at the NCAA National Office, certainly from my perspective,

is to serve our membership. And, you know, we weren't serving our membership that well because we were somewhat disjointed. So I oversee those three groups. They're both, all three of them are very interesting areas. And I've certainly enjoyed the, I guess, the, the, I guess, the, 10 months or so that I've been doing this now. I started back at the end of January of this year. But there's a whole lot more that we have to do with our three regulatory spaces to really serve our membership better. Because things are changing in the world of college athletics. No secret to you.

You follow this stuff, I'm sure, pretty closely. But between lawsuits that have been filed, between court decisions that have come out of some of those lawsuits, between all the realignment that we've seen the last six, seven years, I mean, I was a part of it when I was at West Virginia when we left the Big East and joined the Big 12th, the increased cost of college athletics on campus, you name it, right? The academic concerns and there's a lot that's happening in the college space. I'm a huge believer in the values that we represent in terms of intercollegiate athletics and how important we are in this country. We're the only nation that does college sports. Nobody else does it.

People don't do this in Europe or Africa or Asia, even though they've got great universities that have been around for a century. but we're the exception in this country the way we do our college athletics. I think people by and large love our college athletics. We're at a very good spot, but like any successful industry, we've got challenges, and we need to reform ourselves to better adapt to those challenges. Just like any business. In that regard, you know, we're similar to any business, quite honestly. Yeah, one of the things you mentioned earlier was about people who have,

sustained excellence and are successful are curious and they're always asking questions. And I am curious, when you first got this role, what were some of the immediate questions you were asking? Or maybe you had some thoughts that going into the role, you thought, you know, I need to fix this or I don't like this because you're involved. You're an athletic director. So you're right in the thick of what's going on as far as college athletics. So what are some of those first initial thoughts and maybe you had some things wrong as an AD that now being in your current role at the NCAA that you're like ah now I see it or I see why it's more challenging to do what I thought maybe was possible when I wasn't in this role yeah that's a great question and

I could probably do a you know hour long dissertation on you know all the things that that you sort of learn when you're in the membership, you know, on campus as an AD. I was there for five years, you know, really didn't have much to do with national office issues, you know, because at that point, at least West Virginia University where I was the AD, we had all sorts of issues on our own campus, the most important of which was conference realignment that we had to sort out, right? So, you know, I've learned a tremendous number of things in terms of how this national office operates, how disparate, how broad our membership is. I like to say two things, you know, when I talk about just Division 1, right?

There's, as you know, Division 1, 2, and 3, there's something like 1,100 members in Division 1, 2, and 3. But Division 1 itself, 351 schools, that's where I spend the bulk of my time. and you know it reminds me a little bit of the canina in the Star Wars movie you know where all the freaks and the hairies hung out right because everybody's different in division one you know you got massive schools like Ohio State and University of Texas University of Florida you name it right all the way down to the New Jersey Institute of Technology. Yeah. They're Division I school and their needs are incredibly different.

I also use the old Will Rogers saying he used to say that he wasn't a member of an organized political party. He was a Democrat. That references all the big tent, you know, that the Democrats used to have, right? We still do have to some degree. But that's, that's what you begin to realize as you, as you look at Division I, there's big schools or small schools, there's private schools, there's public schools, there's schools that are academically elite, you know, there's schools that effectively have, you know, open enrollment, right? We're all serving my alma mater, West Virginia, serves Appalachia, right? That's our mandated mission from the state where my, you know, three of my kids have gone to school.

Stanford serves a very different, you know, population. So you realize that we have lots of differences. We've got lots of things that we have in common, of course. But very often the viewpoint of a school may depend on whether, you know, it's a big school or a small school, a public or a private, academically elite, or not, you know. And that makes the governance process that much more challenging, you know, because we try to say one size fits all. But, you know, when you've got 351 Division I schools and another, I don't know, what, 300, 400 Division 2 schools, and then Division 3, you know, all of a sudden you realize you've got, you've got religious schools, you've got public schools. You know, you realize there's a breadth of very, you know, very impressive breadth of opinion out there in higher ed.

Yeah, I mean, just the one, once you get the role, because I think a lot of people, actually have gone through that. Maybe even if you just got in a promotion at whatever company you work for, that you always think it's going to be one way and then you actually get the role, especially of people who are promoted into people leadership roles. And I've been in that situation before. And you think of it as one way and then you actually get the job and you're like, oh, wow, this is this is completely different.

There's things that I'm doing that I never even thought of before that I thought that needed to be done. But you do want to go in with an open mind. You want to go in being very curious, thinking about. okay, what are the right questions, who are the right people to be speaking to and asking those questions to so that you can learn ways to get things done? Because I assume that's why Mark Emmer brought you into the role. Well, yeah, I mean, I like to think I'm a doer. You know, I was certainly a doer at West Virginia, previous positions. Everybody wants to get things accomplished. You know, I just want to sit around and,

you know, twirl your thumbs and collect a paycheck and go through the motion. So, and I think part of the importance and sort of the sense of urgency of getting things done is what I mentioned earlier. We are at a time when college athletics is changing, you know, a number of things have happened just in the last year or so in terms of, you know, schools providing at least the bigger schools that have the money, providing the full cost of attendance for student athletes. So kids are getting a stipend, you know, scholarships are now guaranteed. We've taken restrictions off of nutrition and some other silly things that we probably never should have regulated in the past. So you have all these changes going on. And like any industry, we're a multi-billion dollar business when you boil it all down. And, you know, we're very visible.

We're on, you know, TV virtually every day of the year with multiple events. So you want to make sure that, you know, we are looking down the road a little bit. bit. We can anticipate where we need to change, where are weak points are, you know, how do we need to respond? You know, and then there's sort of philosophical questions. What is the definition of amateurism? Right. Why do we defend amateurism? You know, Jay and I discuss that in a very friendly manner, and I really respect his opinions because he's gone through it just like I have. He is a basketball player. I as a football player, you know, both involved, you know, with college athletics in different roles today. But, you know, we have to decide those issues.

Does the American public care about amateurism? You know, so, you know, there are those sorts of issues as well where we have to, as an association, really figure out, you know, what can we all agree on and move forward. But it is, there are a lot of sort of things that I've learned over the last year that you just really don't see, you know, from an athletic director's chair or from a coach's chair or from a university president's chair. But that's why you sort of move up into these higher positions. Your lens gets broader, right? Right.

You find that you do have to take other factors into consideration. What I thought may have been a no-brainer as an AD. You realize, oh, there's another side of this story, maybe two or three sides of the story. What about the topic of paying college athletes? I know you mentioned the stipend they can receive. I'm thinking, because this kind of hits on the debate that you and Jay had for those who haven't seen it. You can go to the fire.org.

It was held at Texas A&M. I watched it leading up to this conversation, both with you and the one I had with Jay, which was episode 73 of my show for people who are looking on iTunes. And, you know, this is a big topic. I, as well as my younger brother, AJ, are part of the Ed O'Bannon, a class action lawsuit. for that was in regards to using our likeness in video games, and we'll probably see a few bucks from that at some point, I think, from what I've at least the notes that I get.

But now you see guys, like, let's say, for example, it's fresh on the mind, Ezekiel Elliott, he's in the news, a lot of number 15 jerseys all over Ohio. I'm here in Ohio, I see these, and Zeke is not getting compensated for those specific sales of his jersey. My younger brother, AJ, there was a number of, of those sales. When he was in college as well, even my jersey for somehow, some reason, was in bookstores and

being sold probably to a handful of people when I was in college at Ohio University. So what about that aspect as far as an athlete's likeness and being compensated for it, outside of the scholarship and the stip? Sure. There's a couple different issues. I think one is what you're referring to, which is, you know, should, student athlete financially benefit from his or

name, image and likeness. And I think that's a reasonable argument for student athletes to make. In the O'Bannon case, it was a good bit about that, although it sort of morphed, you know,

through the long course of this case, it morphed a little bit. And ironically, the plaintiffs, you're you signed up with the lawyers and the group dropped the whole merchandise claim, which was startling to me, because I saw the same thing when I'd go out to watch my son play. You know, Stanford was selling a bunch of number 12 jerseys. A ton of them, yeah. So I think there's a reasonable argument that could be made that student athletes should receive some sort of compensation, you know, for their name, image, and likeness.

But that's, that is completely different, I think, than the argument about paying college athletes, which means a salary, right? Right, right. And I think I could be convinced that there's a legitimate claim for name, image, likeness dollars because student athletes don't give up their name, image, and likeness just when they sign their grant in aid. I don't believe, though, that student athletes should be put on a salary. I think there's a number of reasons for that, you know, both philosophical and practical. The practical reason is simply that, you know, we, I'm at West Virginia, and we put, I don't know,

we have 400 and some student. athletes, Ohio State probably's got, you know, 800 and some student athletes. You put them all on a salary and you've got 800 employees. There's a massive body of law called labor law, employment law, that you'd have to manage. And I think that would fundamentally take away from the existing relationship that exists on campus today, which is a student teacher, student coach relationship. If kids are on, student athletes run salaries,

we would, you know, have an employer, employee relationship with all of the things that hang on on every employer or employee relationship. So I believe that we made proper steps in providing the stipends, you know, this full cost of attendance.

I don't know what the number is at OU or OSU. But I'm sure it's, I don't know, three, four, five thousand dollars. I think it's a positive step. I agree. I think a lot of the other things that we've done have been positive steps. I think we can still do more for student athletes in terms of health care beyond their time on campus. A lot of kids walk away with injuries.

I mean, it's not just football. It's gymnastics and soccer and everything else. I think we should consider, it's not my decision. These are really decisions that get made on campus, but I think campuses should consider providing a scholarship for graduate school. I love that idea. I saw that. How about grad school?

Why not a PhD? You know, if you're really serious about saying this is about education, well, let's just so I think there are a number of other things we can do that would retain the student teacher, student coach relationship, and that wouldn't turn it into an employer-employee relationship because I think that would fundamentally change the dynamic. And I can't prove this, but my gut tells me. that a lot of folks that support OSU Athletics, support OU Athletics, support OU Athletics,

I don't know if they'd be as keen on watching poorly paid semi-professional players play. You know, I... No, I'm with you. I think that the nature of college athletics, as we've known it up to this point, would change significantly. And I don't know if the American public would accept that, you know. No, I think...

If the American public loves basketball, you know, you would think they'd be flocking to go watch a D-League game. There's great players in the D-League, right? They're developmental league in places like Fort Wayne, Indiana, and wherever else, you know, in some of the smaller markets. Those guys would probably beat any college team, you know, I would think. But, you know, I've watched a game on TV every now and then, and you see a couple hundred people there, right? Because there's no brand association. It's not the University of Contagued. It's not Indiana University.

It's not Purdue. I mean, those are brands that people know. They resonate. You slip on that Kentucky uniform, and all of a sudden, you know, you're somebody very special in the state of Kentucky, you know, versus putting on the Fort Wayne,

D-League uniform. You're just a guy, great basketball player, but just another guy trying to make it to the NBA. So, I mean, this is, you know, from listening to our debate or from talking to Jay. Jay has reasonable views on a lot of these issues as well, but I think gone for hours. But ultimately, I think that creating the employer-employee relationship amongst your 400, 500, 800 student-athletes

would just fundamentally change what we do. And I am not supportive of that, although I am supportive of providing additional benefits outside of the employer-employee space to student athletes. Well, I love the health care option or availability potential. I love the graduate school scholarship. I would have been one of those guys who would have probably taken that if that would have been afforded to me when I got done playing. So I love those things. The one area as far as the likeness, so you support players being paid on whether it's jersey sales or people using their likeness. But right now players are not paid for that.

What needs to happen in order for an Ezekiel Elliott type Andrew Luck when he was at Stanford, your son, to get to be paid on their likeness while they're still in college? Or maybe it's even put in escrow and they get that money when they're done playing, whatever it may be. How does that have to happen? What do we have to do? Yeah, I mean, it's a good question. So ultimately, you know, that needs to become a piece of legislation in the NCAA governance world, right? So, you know, I don't know, obviously your brother is playing, you know, professional football. And I'm sure that when he got drafted, the union, the NFLPA gave him a group licensing agreement.

Yep. And he probably signed it like virtually every, you know, professional football player does. And that, you know, so if fans are buying an AJ Hawk jersey, you know, AJ is getting 6% of the 6%. sale of that jersey. Another 2% goes into a fund that's shared equally by NFL players at the end of the year, you know, because there's only, what, seven or eight guys per team max that, you know, they get their own jersey to be sold. Right. Right. So that's a group license. So one could argue that college athletes, you know, could develop with, you know, with their university, some kind of a group licensing system, you know, whether it's jerseys or other, you know, other bits of merchandise

where, you know, the name and image or likeness is used. And, you know, whether that money is shared with all student athletes, you know, I mean, a lot of people say, listen, if you don't want Zeke as good as a player as he is, you know, getting $100,000 and everybody else, nothing, right, because, you know, Buckeye fans just want to buy Zeech's jersey. That's a decision that the university ultimately would make.

So, theoretically, do you sign a group license where all the football players split evenly, you know, all 85 scholarship players split evenly, the revenue coming off of a jersey like that or a T-shirt? Or do you share that with all student athletes?

You know, the fencing team at Ohio State probably doesn't have much value in terms of a group license. You know, should they be, should they participate? at all. Maybe it's all student athletes. There is, as you know, from school, there is a lot of solidarity

with student athletes on the campus, right? My daughter played volleyball at Stanford, my older daughter, and Stanford's got a great volleyball program, but they don't generate excess revenue. Football team does, basketball team does, but the basketball guys know that they're generating extra

money that help to volleyball and the field hockey team and the swim team. You know, there's a lot of solidarity amongst athletes. You know, I've yet to run into a student athlete who says, yeah, drop the field hockey team because I need, you know, I need more stipend money. They want to see other athletes be able to compete. They understand that, you know, the universities use the revenue from football and basketball to pay for everything else. So, you know, there's a lot of questions to be answered. But ultimately, the specific

question, how do you make that happen? You've got to get a piece of legislation that's sponsored by, you know, a conference or a school and have it to work through the governance system. the membership has to agree that that's the case, you know, that there's some system in place, some sort of, I think, would be some sort of a group licensing system. And at this point, you know, there are, you know, some people that I think think like me on this subject, but there's also a lot that don't, you know, because it's a very broad membership, you know, with Division I, 351 schools. And, you know, you have to do a lot of convincing and a lot of persuasion, you know, to get that,

to take place. But, you know, we are in a new era, right? How many, 10 years ago, I don't know if people would have thought, you know, we'd be given athletes, you know, three, four, five thousand dollars stipends. I don't think people would have thought that we'd have guaranteed scholarships. I don't think people would have thought that we're considering health care beyond student athletes for five years on campus. So, you know, things are changing. Yeah. It seems to me like it's headed in the right direction, which is great to see. Oliver, I wanted to, you know, so I don't want to make too hard of a,

transition here, but I'm fascinated by your leadership as a dad. And I wanted to talk about that because this is something that's really big to me. You know, my dad has done this for me, has been a guest on this podcast and shared a lot of great insight. And, you know, I think most people from the dad perspective know you as Andrew Luck's dad. You know, there's a great article on the Indystar.com is Andrew Luck's dad, the NCAA's White Knight. I mean, even the headline is labeling you not Oliver Luck, but as Andrew's dad. And as I mentioned earlier in the podcast, it's got to be a huge source of pride, I would believe, because these are the kids that you raised.

But I want to jump into kind of what the upbringing was like for your four children. You mentioned Andrew's not, obviously he's one of four. And your daughter's one of them played at Stanford as well played volleyball. So what between you and your wife and you guys are, you know, raising your children and they're growing up as it appears to be just incredibly successful, both, certainly not only on the athletic fields, but in the classroom and as people, which is most important as well. What is your thought process towards leadership as a dad and some of the key things that you think about when being a dad? Oh, you know, I'll be honest. I'm very reluctant to talk about parenting in the context of,

what did you do with your kid? You know what I mean? But people, I would imagine, have to ask you that all the time. Yeah, I do get asked, and my wife gets asked as well. We get collectively asked often, you know, like there was some sort of magic sauce, you know, that we had. There wasn't, right? We raised our kids, I think, to be good kids, to, you know, be diligent, hardworking kids, you know, work ethic. We encourage them to get involved with sports but never mandated any particular sport. We tried to give them a lot of leeway, you know, a lot of rope so they could do things.

You know, sort of old school stock. What do you mean by that? Well, you know, I think kids don't, kids are very adaptable and you need to allow kids to fail, right? You learn more from failure than you do from success. You don't want to be the helicopter parent. You know, you want to be there, right? But, you know, you also want to allow your kids to go do things. And if they succeed, they did it on their own.

If they failed, they did it on their own. You know, don't want them, you want to prepare them, but you don't want to sort of always be holding their hand. I'm a believer in that. At least the two older ones spend a lot of time, you know, as young, formative kids in Europe, you know, where you could let them wander. around London or Frankfurt, wherever we were living, seeing different things, you know,

going to soccer matches or taking trips, you know. So, you know, I never dreamed when Andrew was a kid growing up that he'd be a number one draft choice in the NFL, you know, that never entered my mind. And we didn't raise him to be such, you know, but he encouraged him to always set goals and take risks. playing sports is inevitably sort of a risk because you can both succeed

and fail. I didn't every athlete's had plenty of both. I mean, I loved the kids. We've still, we've got one more in the house. The son who's graduated from high school. I was going to go to Yale. He's a soccer player. Wow. And, you know, I was looking forward to him

getting into college. So, but they were also blessed with, you know, good DNA and, you know, nothing kids can do about their DNA. That's from you. But that's just comes from our parents. That's just the way it is, right? I don't think you can raise kids with a certain outcome in mind.

I think you have to give them some rope, let them pursue whatever interests they have. I got four, and they're all different in many respects. They're all just here this past couple of days. my wife and I and all the kids, you know, for Thanksgiving. So, you know, and they'll end up doing different things, but you have to really, I believe you have to let them decide, you know. Yeah.

College, we always listen, it's your call. Where you want to go to college, it's your call, you know. We might have a veto right, but we're not going to direct you any direction. What sport you want to do, it's your call, you know. But you shouldn't do any sport because you learn a lot of values in doing, you know, middle school, high school, sports, college. But I'm reluctant to, you know, act as if we had some sort of secret sauce on my wife and I cooked up.

Well, I mean, it's interesting. A lot of love, a lot of time. Yeah. But you also got to let them, you know, go out and do things and succeed and or fail. I was going to say it was interesting because the tone of your voice has changed since speaking about being a dad. And some could say, I mean, this is the most important job we have, I believe, as being a dad for those who are listening who are dads or moms. And so it's just interesting because this is an area where you've really excelled, but you seem to be really reliant. to take credit for it, which is a little bit surprising, I have to say.

I was expecting maybe not like you had a set plan, like you were regimented with the kids and all that. It seems like the approach was more, you are more of the opposite of maybe the current landscape of parenting today. Whereas all the kids have this, they focus on one sport and they have these coaches year round to be, you know, to make sure their seven step drop is perfect. and I get the sense that that wasn't how a guy like Andrew, your son, grew up. No. No, I mean, you know, if anybody was his coach, I was, and then we were goofing around in the front yard,

throwing the football at trees in Frankfurt, Germany, or, you know, in Hyde Park in London, or, I mean, you got to make, you got to, it has to be fun. Things have to be fun for kids to. I think the parents that are successful have taught their kids, that if any activity is fun and enjoyable, kids are going to do it. And the moment it stops becoming fun,

they're going to sort of wonder why they do it. So you've got to be creative, got to have fun. We did a lot of pickup games. A lot of it was because we were over in Europe, you know. You don't see too many people throwing a football around Germany or any other country over there. But I'm also just reluctant, again, even imply that we have some sort of secret sauce.

There are a lot of different components, great grandparents, lots of good aunts and uncles, friends. And most of the three are out of the house now, fourth, about to go out. Yeah. You know, so. You know, Kobe Bryant grew up in Italy with his dad playing over there, and it seems like that has helped him in his career,

and he just announced that this would be his last NBA season. and he's a great writer. He's fluent in multiple languages, and it seems to have helped him. This is just out of left field. Have you ever spoken with him or his family about the fact that both that you guys raised some of your,

for at least a portion of the life, kids overseas? No, I've not. I have talked to some of those, Mike Strayan. Okay. Did he grow up over there too? Well, he was a military,

as they say, but he was in Germany for a good long time. There's, you know, there's a number of, sort of odd cases, if you will, where kids have been overseas either with the military or others, you know, sometimes early in life, sometimes later in life, you know, it's a hodgepodge. But there are absolutely some benefits for kids to spend time outside of their own culture, you know, because you really do learn a lot. And, you know, I think it gives you a different, a little bit of a

different lens on life. Yeah. What's it like to watch your kids play sports? Specifically, I mean, they play, and I remember my mom would always tell people, and I played quarterback. My brother played running back and linebacker, and she'd always say she was much more nervous to see me play, just simply because there's guys constantly coming after and trying to kill me, and that made her really nervous. My dad would, you know, he wouldn't say it exactly the same words as her, but that it was a nerve-wracking experience and still is just thinking about it to this day. What's it like for you?

Because you're a former player. You've been there. You've stood there when there's the guys coming after you and your face. and so you've lived it yourself. What's it like now being on the other end when you're watching? Yeah, I think any parent would say it's somewhat nerve-wracking. My wife and I will sit there and watch games, and she doesn't have the benefit of having played.

That's probably a good thing because you sort of realize that, you know, that's just most things are part of the game, right? And the good, the bad, the ugly, you know, I think I have a little bit of a perspective in terms of quarterback play in the NFL, sometimes you're only as good as the team around you, sometimes you're struggling, sometimes you're carrying a team on your back, you know. Sometimes it happens,

you know, all three of those things happen in the same game. You know, so it's enjoyable. I, you know, love going, you know, to home games and away games. I try to go to as many games as I can.

It is a little bit nerve-wracking. But, you know, I, I, I, you know, it's important, I think, for parents to be there. It's really kind of surprising, I've gotten to know a lot of the other appearance of Colts players and even though these guys have been in the league for five years, 10 years, their moms and dads are still there.

Reggie Wayne's dad used to go watch every game you could. And even though his son was Super Bowl champ, one of the all-time greats probably heading to the Hall of Fame, he felt it was important for him to be there, win, lose, or draw. So I think, you know, in a sense, these pro athletes go through an extended period of adolescence as they play.

Yeah. Even though off the field, you know, Andrew makes, you know, all of his own decisions in terms of everything else in life, right? But, you know, we're still sort of there as parents to, you know, to chair him on and give him a hug if he doesn't do well. Yeah, part of my dad, what he says, and he goes to all my younger brother's games, too, home and away. And my mom goes to the overwhelming majority of them with him doesn't always travel to the long-distance places. But he's he mentioned, and this is both when your kids are young and old. is just showing up, just being there, whether that's, you know, catching, you know, catching your son shooting free throws, son or daughter shooting free throws until 11 o'clock at night and passing the ball back so they could keep shooting or going to their games in San Diego, you know, things like that, I think that is a big deal for kids.

You're spot on. Yeah. I got one more question, Oliver. I know we're up against it, and I really appreciate the fact that you've invested your time with me and the listeners here at the Learning Leaders show. So the questions around that phrase, learning leader, and that's a conscious decision made by me to name the show, the learning leader show, because I'm all about leadership and studying the art and science behind it and what makes up great leaders. And we talked about leadership both from a corporate perspective as well as being a dad, which to me is the most important role of a leader that those of us who are fortunate enough to be fathers have. So I'm curious for you when you hear that phrase learning leader, what's, what's, what's, what's, the first thing that you think of?

Well, you know, leadership is a really interesting, you know, concept. Particularly in this society, which, you know, maybe you could make an argument that the United States is one of the most, if not the most, you know, individualistic countries in the world the way we're sort of structured. You know, the collective never made it very far in this country, you know, unlike other Western democracies like Europe or whatever. So, you know, leadership is important. It's crucial.

I think, you know, good leaders have to do a lot of different things, one of which is they've got to be able to communicate, you know, relatively well. If you're not communicating, you know, it's hard, I think, for most people to sort of follow. Having said that, you know, there's lots of great phrases about how important it is to, you know, not just talk to talk, but walk the walk. It was like St. Francis saying something to the effect of preach the gospel, you know, semicolon, if necessary, comma, use words. So, you know, you have to communicate.

You also, I think, have to, you know, have a vision for where you want people to go, right? Leadership, to a certain reason, is sort of a roadmap, you know. If people don't know where you're going, they may balk it following. So you've got to have enough critical thinking skills, analytical thinking skills, to sort of figure out where is the company? to be in five years or ten years or whatever, right? So that's important. You have to have a, again, you've got to be stubborn, right?

Lots of leaders that, you know, I think of Sam Houston and the 1836 in the Republic of, well, it wasn't the Republic of Texas. It was a province of Mexico at that point. And that was a year that the, you know, the Texian army, which was led by Sam Houston. and they got clobbered at the Alamo, lost right to Santa Ana. They suffered a massive defeat at the second battle called Goliad. They retreated all the way from San Antonio basically to where Houston is now, I don't know, 150, 170 miles, crossing all these rivers swollen with water in the springtime.

Santa Ana was chasing them, rag-tagged bunch of Texans, you know, totally unorganized. and they fought at San Jacinto right outside of Houston. Texans defeated Santa Ana in his army in 15 minutes. Sam Houston had been implored by virtually the entire army for weeks to attack. And he kept saying, no, no, no, it's not the right time, not the right place. He picked out the right time and place today. He was a stubborn old codger, you know. So you've got to be stubborn.

I mean, at the end of the day, you've got to be stubborn. and you also need a little bit of good fortune, right? So, I mean, there's lots of components of leadership. It's hard to distill it down, I think. But what I really like about what I'm doing in college athletics and what a lot of people are doing in this industry is I really do believe that we're helping create leaders every day. And that's not happening in a lot of places in this country.

It's happening in the military. It happens in other extracurricular, so it's not just in athletics. but I really feel good about young men and women, you know, coming out of college athletics, big school, small school, it doesn't matter, public, private, religious, state, you know, sports irrelevant. We're creating people that, you know, come out with better leadership skills than they went in with, you know, and that's, I think, a great contribution to society. Love it. I love it. Thank you so much, Oliver, for being here.

And it's my pleasure to have this conversation with you. and I look forward to seeing all the things you do. You're only 10 months into this role, and there's already been some great change, and I look forward to what you do in the future, man. Sure. Hey, my pleasure. Enjoyed it. All right. Thanks so much. All right. You bet. See you.

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