The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 086: Seth Godin – How To Become Indispensable & Build Your Tribe

Episode Date: January 4, 2016

Episode 086: Seth Godin – How To Become Indispensable & Build Your Tribe Seth Godin is a legend in the marketing and leadership world.  He truly understands the importance of “deciding to” and having an intense focus on continuous improvement.  Learning more about the most important job we (parents) will ever have is imperative to me.  Seth shares detailed, research backed evidence to how we can better lead and “cause a ruckus” as he would say.  We are extremely fortunate to have Seth share her knowledge with us, the loyal listeners of The Learning Leader Show.  Seth Godin is the author of 18 books that have been bestsellers around the world and have been translated into more than 35 languages. He writes about the post-industrial revolution, the way ideas spread, marketing, quitting, leadership and most of all, changing everything. You might be familiar with his books Linchpin, Tribes, The Dip and Purple Cow. In addition to his writing and speaking, Seth founded both Yoyodyne and Squidoo. His blog (which you can find by typing "seth" into Google) is one of the most popular in the world. He was recently inducted into the Direct Marketing Hall of Fame, one of three chosen for this honor in 2013.  His newest book, What To Do When It's Your Turn, is already a bestseller. Episode 086: Seth Godin – How To Become Indispensable & Build Your Tribe Subscribe on iTunes  or Stitcher Radio The Learning Leader Show “If You're Not Upsetting Anyone, You're Not Changing The Status Quo." Some Questions I Ask: What are the common characteristics of leaders who have sustained excellence over time? What are your thoughts on parenting and how to be a great Dad? Why is school a con? If you were made super intendant of a school district tomorrow, what are some of the first things you would do? Should people go to college? Why or why not? When initially asked to be a guest on my show, what made you respond that you would do it 9 months later?  Was it related to “The Dip?” Why don’t you do one on one coaching or consulting work? What is a typical day in the life of Seth Godin? Why should we seek out jobs where we don’t need a resume? In This Episode, You Will Learn: The importance of “deciding to” and why it’s our turn School was invented by industrialist for you to be a cog How we all can learn one simple idea The Dip – Understanding it and how to prosper and prepare for it Why we all need to change everything – And THINK about it that way The importance of focusing and understanding when to say no and why Why Seth will never tweet The economics of podcasting and blogs “Leading is a skill, not a gift.” Continue Learning: Go To Seth’s website: com Read: LINCHPIN - Are You Indispensible? Read: WHAT TO DO WHEN IT'S YOUR TURN (and it's always your turn) Follow Seth’s blog on Twitter: @ThisIsSethsBlog You may also like these episodes: Episode 001: How To Become A Master Connector With Jayson Gaignard From MasterMind Talks Episode 034: Jimmy Hatch – Shot While Searching For Bowe Bergdahl And Sky Diving With Gabby Giffords Episode 004: How Todd Wagner (and Mark Cuban) Sold Broadcast.com To Yahoo! For $5.7 Billion Episode 010: Shane Snow – How To Accelerate Success Using Smart Cuts Did you enjoy the podcast? This was a jam packed episode full of great content.  Seth Godin is leader who is constantly learning in order to help us all live a better life. Who do you know that needs to hear this?  Send them to The Learning Leader Show! Episode edited by the great J Scott Donnell Bio From SethGodin.com Seth Godin is the author of 18 books that have been bestsellers around the world and have been translated into more than 35 languages. He writes about the post-industrial revolution, the way ideas spread, marketing, quitting, leadership and most of all, changing everything. You might be familiar with his books Linchpin, Tribes, The Dip and Purple Cow. In addition to his writing and speaking, Seth founded both Yoyodyne and Squidoo. His blog (which you can find by typing "seth" into Google) is one of the most popular in the world. He was recently inducted into the Direct Marketing Hall of Fame, one of three chosen for this honor in 2013.

Show me a six-month-old baby that people are following around. Not too many, right? What we see is that, you know, Gandhi, who was born in India, grew up in South Africa, wasn't particularly handsome except for his haircut, and, you know, ended up changing a nation. Where's the part in Gandhi's life that shows that he was born to be the Mahatma? I don't see it. And, you know, it's very flattering when people like you talk to me, Like I'm a leader, but the fact is that for eight years I was near bankruptcy.

I got 850 rejections my first year as a book packageer. That we were within weeks of having to lay off every single person in the organization, that my wife and I went window shopping in restaurants. That was part of the deal, but not one person in those days came up to me and said, oh, you must be a born leader. Not one. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk.

Hey and welcome to The Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk and a big, happy New Year's to all of you, the great loyal supporters and listeners of the Learning Leader Show. Thank you so much for being here. And I thought, what better way to get the new year kicked off with some juice than to have a great featured leader? And we've done that with the legendary Seth Godin. Seth is the author of 18 books that have been bestsellers around the world and have been translated into more than 35 languages. He writes about the post-industrial revolution, the way ideas spread, marketing, quitting, leadership, and most of all, changing everything. A few of his books are Lynchpin, Tribes, The Dip, and Purple Cow.

He also writes daily on his blog, which you can find if you go to Google and simply type in the word, Seth. I absolutely love this conversation with one of my heroes, one of my favorite writers of all time. A few of the things we got into. The importance of making a choice to make a difference and how it's on us to decide to, to decide to make it happen and to do the work day after day after day. And Seth talks about how he practices that. And then the story of when I first sent a cold email to Seth and his response, which was truly testing me to see if I would make it through the dip that most podcasters

aren't able to make it past. And we want to detail here. And I really appreciated him discussing his thought process. And I think it's an interesting story. And then why you should be seeking out a job or your life's work slash, career where you don't need a resume, a written resume. And that might seem a little odd to some people, but I think once you hear him talk about why he believes that, you'll really find it interesting. Ladies and gentlemen, so excited. Without further ado, it's the great Seth Godin.

Okay, Seth, this one is a huge thrill for me. It's over nine months in the making. I got a quick question to get us rolling. It's around sustained excellence. People who have done big things over an extended period of time. And you obviously embody that. You've spent a lot of time around people who have sustained excellence over time. And I'm curious, what are some of the common characteristics that those people all seem to share?

The only thing that I've seen that leaders have in common, they're short and they're tall, and they're fat, and they're skinny, and they stutter, and they don't stutter, and they're charismatic, and they're unattractive and everything. The only thing they have in common is that they have, made a choice and that choice is to lead and to make a difference. It is easy to not make that choice and if you don't make that choice, it's easy to believe that leadership belongs to other people, that somehow the fickle finger of fate points to someone else, somehow it's luck or

good fortune. But in my experience, it is always a choice. Who are some of the first people that come to mind when you think of sustained excellence? Well, I won the parent lottery, and so for me it was my mom who passed away a while ago and my dad. These were two people who were role models for me about what it meant to care and be part of the community. If someone needed a place to stay, they stayed at our house. If someone didn't have a place to go for Thanksgiving, they came to our house.

My mom was the first woman on the board of trustees of the art museum. My dad volunteered to run the United Way in my town. This was normal. It was normal to decide to care enough to show up. So you're a dad now and amongst the other great things that you do. And I think being a dad and a great husband is the most important thing that we'll do. What are some of the specific, I don't want to say tactics, but specific ways that you work to show your kids that they've won the parent lottery?

You know, I wrote an e-book called Stop Stealing Dreams, and it's free. It's been read about four million times so far. And the thesis of the book is that school is pretty much a con. It has, public school has one huge benefit, which is that it teaches kids to be with each other, regardless of their walk of life. That it is one of the only times in American culture where you have to spend a sustained amount of time with other people who aren't necessarily the same as you. And for that, I'm super grateful.

But school was invented by industrialists to train young people to become willing cogs in the industrial system, to do what they are told, to fit in to color inside the lines, that the main job of school is to teach you to use a number two pencil to sit still and take good notes. Well, the only use of those items is so that you can go to a factory for eight or 10 or 12 or 14 hours and do what you are told. So my job was to instill the thinking of free-range kids in my children,

to homeschool them from 3 o'clock in the afternoon until 10 o'clock at night every day, to create a platform, a foundation for them to fail, fail and fail and fail, to do things that they might not be good at, to explore, to contribute, to lead in a safe place, so that after they weren't in our house anymore, it would become second nature for them to do that. Wow. And I've read a lot about what you, and I was going to get to this later, but let's go there now since we're talking about it. And I've read that, you know, the two things you believe that they should teach in school are to solve interesting problems and leadership, which is, which is apropos for my podcast.

So I love that. I think it's fascinating. So I want to pose this question to you. So let's say that you get the job of being a superintendent of a school district, a big school district, and you have the ability to choose and to make a difference in kids' lives. And they say, hey, Seth, you have free reign to do whatever you want. There's no standardized testing unless you want it. There's nothing out there that you must do.

You have complete control. The only thing we ask is that you prepare these kids to live their lives as a, adults, as society contributing adults. What are some of the first things that you do and implement into that school district if you're the superintendent? Well, you know, I had a superintendent of school sitting at this table with me three days ago. Nice. And the district she works in is super lucky to have her because she is basically living the answer

to that question. The first challenge you have is the parents. The parents have been brainwashed into thinking that they need to send their kid to a famous college. And, you know, the famous college thing. is clearly true in the sports world, but it's also true in the academic world. There's no data whatsoever that famous colleges are better than non-famous colleges in terms of the long-term impact they have on people's lives. What we do know is that parents need to prove something to each other, and one thing they're trying to prove to each other is that they're good parents because their kids got into a famous school.

So if I have to fight with the parents every day, then your hypothetical question doesn't work because I'm going to quit my my job. But let's assume that that's not a factor. For me then, having run a summer camp in Northern Ontario with my friend Joanne, I can tell you from firsthand knowledge that what you do is you give children the freedom to take responsibility for their actions and you give them the authority to do something that they believe matters. That when you ask a seven-year-old or a nine-year-old or an 11-year-old to freely solve a problem they are actually interested in, two things happen, learning and growth, that that is what we are actually wired to do. And in my Stop Stealing Dreams talk, I talk about the fact that if we were trying to teach people baseball statistics,

it would be really stupid to have them memorize the book and then test them on it and then the ones who weren't good at it, throw them out of the class, et cetera, et cetera. And yet, there are millions of kids who know the batting average that Derek Jeter had in 1998. How did that happen?

Right? Well, it's because they wanted to, not because they were ordered to. And once you figure out how to create an environment where kids are rewarded and incented and celebrated for finding problems that they care about and then engaging in them, they do. And it's that simple. What are some of the tactical ways you would do that,

implement that? Because teachers are trained this way to, at least some of them are trained in their schooling to, okay, I want my students to make sure they're the ones who are scoring best on these tests. What are some of the ways that you could do that? Is it in the hiring process or what is it? What's the key?

Well, I need to state really clearly that teachers are amazing. Teachers care. Teachers go into this field for the right reason, and the bureaucracy corrupts them. The bureaucracy pushes them to do these things that are measured but not important. Also, the system crams too much stuff into the day that if you got rid of it, there'd be plenty of time to do the stuff that's important. So I just want to make sure I'm standing up for teachers here because the fact is that teachers already know how to do this.

It's about looking someone in the eye and communicating to them as individuals, as humans, and giving them the excitement to go do work that has a resonance. So Lenny Levine, one of my favorite kindergarten teachers ever, he was my eldest son's teacher. He died a few years ago. Lenny taught a kindergarten class that every single one of those kids remembers 10 years later, 20 years later. Because it wasn't about did you learn the alphabet. It was, did you learn one simple idea, which is, you can't say, you can't play. That his desire and passion to teach kids that one simple idea pays dividends for decades.

What about going to college? I know for some, maybe you'd say for some jobs you have to or maybe not. What is your thought process around if a, let's say, a sophomore in high school had dinner with you and said, Seth, you know, I'm getting a 4.0 in school. I'm passing the test. I'm doing a great job. I'm studying. I'm memorizing as I'm being told to do. And I'm looking to go to college.

What would you say to that student? Well, if we assert that college is just like high school, but with more being. drinking, then I think it's a waste of just about everybody's time and effort. That the ideal of college, this self-motivated, advanced moment of freedom in between childhood and adulthood where people can leap forward is thrilling. You know, I had a great college experience. I co-founded the largest student-run business in the country. I had 400 employees.

I explored all sorts of areas outside of my expertise. I took six courses every semester. I got mediocre grades because who cares about your grades. It was thrilling, but I had to fight the system every day to pull that off. And so the ideal of college is a great idea for just about anyone who can afford it. But, and it's a giant butt, most people who have been pushed so hard to get into a famous school, go to that famous school and repeat the high school experience. And I think that's a waste for just about everybody.

It's interesting because that is such a huge deal right now. And people are still talking about it. And on top of that, you talk about the amount that it costs alone to go to college and how it's just outpacing inflation and it's going crazy. And so that's why I think people are rethinking a little bit, or at least if you're going to go, think about your approach and why you're there. So I want to shift gears a little bit, Seth, to the dip. And the reason I say that is because on February,

February 20th. This is months before my podcast even launched. I had sent you a cold email and said, Seth, you know, I won't go on to everything I said. I'd love to have you in my podcast and gave you some reasons why I wanted to have you on. And you wrote me back. You said, thanks, Ryan. Check back in nine months when you've got a huge following. Good luck. And I have to tell you, you know, it really motivated me because you're a guy who I really, at least you're writing. I didn't know you personally prior that email, inspires me already. And then to get that direct note from you, I was determined that I was going to have a huge following and I was going to be around nine months later. I know the average podcast lasts about seven episodes. If you look at the stats,

were you, at that time, was that just an easy way to say no? Or were you saying, let's see if this guy makes it through the dip. Let's see if he makes it past the average and actually can create something. Maybe I'm reading too much into this because you get billions of emails and you just, you know, you want to respond in a somewhat nice way. But I'm curious as to what your thought process was and if it had anything to do with the dip when you responded that way. One of the great movies of all time is the Wizard of Oz. And in one of the key scenes, the wizard says to Dorothy, bring me the broomstick of the Wicked Witch of the West. If you bring me the broomstick, then I will help you. But he doesn't need a broomstick. Like, why does he say that?

He says it because he wants Dorothy to go away. Yeah. And too many times in our lives, we're in broomstick situations where people give us ridiculous projects just so we will go away. That is not what I was trying to do. What I was doing was saying to you, as you correctly perceived, it's not my job to help a podcast become successful. I could do that all day and never be able to do my work.

But if a podcaster figures out how to get through the dip, sticks it out, makes this commitment, then I have huge respect for that person. So what I was saying to is, yes, there's a dip up ahead. If it's encouraging to you to know that I'm on the other side of the dip, well, I'm happy to support you in that way. I fully expected someone with your background would be back. I didn't say what I said lightly. Why do you fully expect someone with my background to be back?

Well, we don't have to go into how to send Seth God in a cold email. because I hope no one will send me a cold email. There's way too much of that, given that I wrote a book called Permission Marketing. But if I recall, you went into a little bit about who you are and what you do. And so, you know, it didn't strike me as some guy who just woke up on a Tuesday and said, maybe I'll start a podcast on Wednesday. But who knows, I could have just been imagining all that.

You're right. There was months into the planning. And a lot of, I try to write, spend, invest a lot of time in sending coding most of people who were truly, I mean, just to be put it frankly, a hero's of mine, people I look up to. And I thought, you're obviously one of the first people I reached out to. And so, and I, that's why I wanted to publicly thank you, because I did write you back nine months to the day. And I think I wanted to even do it nine months to the minute. I think I missed it by like seven minutes. But I, but it was certainly nine months to the day where I wrote you back. And to your credit,

you said, you know, great job. I will hold up my end of the bargain. And here we are. So I, I, I thought I had something to do with the dip, I'm a fan of that book, and I think a friend of mine hands that book out to a lot of people when they're going through tough moments, and they think about, you know, what should I do here? Do I ride this out or do I quit? And that's why I'm fascinated by the dip. I'm curious when it comes to that book. I mean, just we, I never even got into your bio here because I got to believe that pretty much 99% of people listening already know Seth Coden is. And so I'm not even going to go there, but author of, tons of books, bestsellers, you know, translated into languages all over the world. You know, some of my favorites are Lynchpid tribes, The Dip, Purple Cow will go on and on. I think I love your blog. I love everything you write and read it every day. But when you were writing The Dip specifically, was there a moment in your life or moments where that created that book that you were able to get out of you?

You know, this can lead to a whole big conversation about where ideas come from. What about writer's block? What inspires you? Where do you get all your good ideas? These are dangerous conversations to have because it isolates the other person as someone who could do something you couldn't possibly do. I have some sort of special telegraph with the inspiring board of ideas and other people don't. And this is just nonsense. You know, what I do for a living is I notice things.

And sometimes if I notice enough things and find a pattern, then I write about it. I noticed that a, this was before Google, I wrote this book, the huge benefit of being number one in the listings. The huge benefit is being seen as best in the world. The huge benefit of being, you know, the moment or WTF or on being. if you're a podcaster. If people see that you're in the lead, the benefits that you get are dramatically bigger than the person who's in fifth place.

It's all out of whack. So I felt like that was being underrated and I wanted to highlight that. But then I started noticing that lots of people, from my youth on up, had spent lots of time starting little things and then as soon as they got hard quitting them. and society gives them applause

because they appear to be busy, they appear to be trying, they appear to be working, but in fact they're hiding. And this idea of start quit, start quit, start quit, is a real challenge in our internet-fueled world when what we really need to do

is quit most things before we even start, be aware enough to look down the field and say, there's no way for me to get to the end, I'm not even going to start. But on the things that we do start, making the commitment to get through the hard part, which is what I call the dip. You mentioned that you notice things.

And I would frame that as being aware of what's going on, surroundings. And some of my closest friends who I believe are the most intelligent ones are not necessarily guys who got the best grades. Some of even have learning disabilities. I'm thinking of a few specific ones right now. But I've noticed they have this intense. awareness about what's going on around. I talk with my wife about this all the time about developing our awareness. Is this something that you feel like you've developed over time and gotten better and better?

Or have you always been this naturally curious, aware kid that grew into an adult? Well, the relevant part is the first half. You know, if you blog every day, as I have for almost 10 years, give or take, you can't help but notice things. because you say to yourself, I got to write about something tomorrow, what's going on around me. And what happens is you hold yourself accountable because you see something you wrote about.

My very first blog post was about the Apple Store when there was only three of them. You notice things and you make a prediction based on what you see. And that idea that you, for a living, notice things will transform the way you do your job. So do you start developing that? You think when you started your blog or before that?

Well, again, I'm not going to let you pin me into I'm somehow gifted and talented. Right, right, yeah. Right? I mean, I started doing it professionally when I was 14 years old. I have no idea why I started doing it professionally when I was 14 years old, but I've gotten paid for noticing things ever since. I love it. So another interesting story, when you worked at. Yahoo, briefly.

I know you initially organized a lunch with a dozen people or so in other departments. And your boss told you, my quote, to cool it, told you basically to sit in your cube and wait for instructions. And I found this earlier in my career that the phrase that was used on me a time or two was to stay in your lane. this idea of having to CC the boss or ask permission to send an email to somebody who you're interested in meeting and talking with. I've always been kind of a curious guy who wants to, if I see somebody who works at a company or anywhere, I want to reach out to them much like I did to you and talk to them and learn from them specifically. And that was very early in my career. It was weird for me to hear somebody tell me to stay in my lane because I reached out to someone who may have been a high up or wasn't in my

department. And I read that about you. I was like, wow, that's interesting. And I'm wondering, why do corporations or organizations need to be set up this way where people would tell you to cool it or to stay in your lane when you want to simply reach out and learn from others? This goes all the way back to Frederick Taylor, who wrote a book called Scientific Management almost 100 years ago. Let's do the math. If you run a factory and your factory is more efficient than everybody else's, you win. That's what happens in Shenzhen, China, where every smartphone in the world is made, because no one else can make a smartphone as efficiently as they can. So Henry Ford was a big fan of Frederick Taylor, and they realized if they brought a stopwatch

to the factory floor, they could make their place more efficient than anybody else's. That invented work culture as we know it. And work culture basically says, we can build an institution that does today's job efficiently by getting people to stay in their lane. And I am completely uninterested in doing today's job efficiently. I'm more interested in inventing tomorrow's job. And so I don't write and talk about Yahoo very often, but it was pretty clear to me that the seeds of their 15-year fallow period were planted during that era when their stock price was going up every day

and where the marching orders were staying in your lane. because that's why they did not invent Pinterest and Groupon and Facebook and and and and and and because they were busy staying in their lane. That was going to ask you about that because right now they're going through some tough times. A lot's written about Marissa Meyer, their leader and I'm not sure there's probably enough fault to go around to many people. But is that too many people were cooling it to not. not trying to create new and instead we're just sitting in their cubicle awaiting instructions? Well, Marissa is the last captain of the boat. There's no blame on her whatsoever. I couldn't imagine doing the job she was asked to do. I think that, again, it's the seeds and the

patterns are the question. If you look at what some other companies have done, they are working super hard to break this pattern. And even then, it's hard. If you look at Google, Google has tried heroic efforts to not get stuck. But they're also hiring tons of people who, you know, would have gone to law school instead, who have great SAT scores. And it is a corporate behemoth now that does a thing that the stock market wants it to do. Inevitably, a younger, smaller, faster, more adroit team will make connections they're unable to make. But they have postponed that day by years or decades because senior management is so committed to creating a different kind of cycle.

But it's stressful because you get no applause from Wall Street when you do that. Yeah, it's just a fascinating thing to study, to look at the difference. And there's a lot of books written on that that are easily read, whether it's on studying, Google, Yahoo, or even looking at something like the Airbnbs and Ubers of the world. And are those people, I'm just curious about your life now, when it comes to some of the newer companies like an Uber with Travis Clannock or even the Airbnb guys, do you, are, do people seek you out to have these one-on-one conversations or I don't know if you can talk about this or are some of these newer companies?

I got to believe that at least if I was in that position I would. Is that something that you do on a daily basis or is that not part of your day-to-day life? Yeah, I don't do any coaching, any investing or any consulting on purpose. I meet these people fairly often and we have a casual friendly chat. But I made the decision a long time ago that, A, I'm really bad at picking winners because I'm swayed by things other than what the stock market is. And B, I find that consulting is challenging because if someone comes you with a problem, they'd like you to solve it. But consultants can't solve anything.

All they can do is help people do it themselves. So I'd rather just do that from a little bit of a distance rather than having clients. So the answer to your question is, I know some of these people, some of them are really impressive, some of them are making good choices, but they're not some people I'm actually helping. I mostly do that just for nonprofits. Okay. What's a typical day in the life of Seth Godin? There isn't one. That's on purpose. So what are you going to do tomorrow?

Do you know yet? Or just write? Well, this week I've got two different nonprofits that I'm spending a lot of time with to help them think about where they're going next. I've got some writing. We're building out some stuff for the Alt MBA workshop that I run. And we're going to

be launching a leadership intensive next month, so I've got to work on that as well. Leadership intensive, like something in person? Well, not really in person, but it will be real time and it'll be virtual. We'll be announcing it in a couple weeks that will happen in January. It's going to take three hours. Okay. That's definitely something I'd be interested in.

I'm sure listeners would as well. Another part, something that you've written that I found interesting is about resumes and saying that the best job. or the best things that you could do, you don't need a resume. Could you expand on that a little bit? Okay, so let's break this into pieces. The purpose of a resume today is so that a computer can scan it, see what your keywords are, and put you in one of two piles.

If you need to get a job where you're going to put in one of two piles, then you need to accept the fact that from the first moment, they're treating you like a replaceable cog, someone who fits into piles. There are other kinds of jobs, jobs for which you need a very unique person, a person who brings not just a checklist, but humanity and personality with them. Those jobs are not best filled by somebody with a resume. They're best filled by somebody with passion and a background. And the way you get those jobs is by earning them through your behavior in the world, not by complying and conforming by having a magic piece of paper that gets you put in the right pile. What about for, let's say someone's 25 years old, they've graduated from college, they need to make money, and they come to you, and they're, again, fortunate enough to have a conversation with you, and they're saying, I'm not really sure what I want to do. I got a degree in business management.

I got good grades in college, and I'm a marketable, Seth. What should I do? Well, the first thing is, if you need to make money, you need to make money. I would start by decreasing your cost of living to as low as possible, sleep on a couch, eat brown rice and black beans until you're out of debt because debt is really challenging and you have a hard time doing some of these other things with a sword hanging over your head. Then I would get, you know, whatever freelance or day labor I could just to make sure I've got cash flow. It's freeing up seven hours a day when you are not watching television because you're too busy to watch television. and in those seven hours a day, I would use your skill at, quote, business management

to manage a business. Go start something. Do something that satisfies the needs of the smallest possible number of people that makes it worth doing and overwhelm those people with so much goodness and value that they cannot help but pay you for it.

And then do it again, and then do it again. And three years from now, you won't be looking for a job. People will be coming to you. looking for a job. Let's fast forward. Let's say that person did not take your advice, and they're 37 years old. They have three kids and a spouse and a mortgage and two car payments and bills from kids,

and they have a job that pays them good money, and they need to support that family. But they feel like they're an artist, like there's more there to do, but they also feel the responsibility. What would you say to them? Well, you know, that's a perfect thought question filled with all sorts of hypothetical excuses that easily could lead to, well, then just keep doing what you're doing. But what I might ask, if I'm asking hypotheticals, is what would happen if you were diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumor on Tuesday?

How would you deal with Thursday? Right. And then what would happen if a week later you found out they read the wrong x-rays and you're fine, right? So now you've been given the second chance at life. Is this really what you want to do for the next 30 years? If it is, go ahead. It's not sell the house, sell the cars, get your kids into a different neighborhood with a public school that's going to help them thrive, and go do the thing that you need to do because you don't get very many chances at a second chance. I love that answer and the perspective that you create because I think a lot of people need to hear that.

And I know personally, you know, that's something that I've been in a situation where that's why this podcast was created was because I am in a, nately curious person who wants to reach out and speak with my heroes and get it on tape so that not only I can benefit, but then hopefully hundreds of thousands and millions of other people can as well. And that's why we're doing it here today. And you've written, leading is a skill, not a gift. You're not born with it. Can you talk to me more about that? Well, show me a six-month-old baby that people are following around. Not too many, right? That what we see is that, you know, Gandhi, who was born in India, grew up in South Africa, wasn't particularly handsome except for his haircut, and, you know, ended up changing a nation. Where's the part in Gandhi's life that shows that he was born to be the Mahatma? I don't see it.

And, you know, it's very flattering when people like you talk to me like I'm a leader, but the fact is that for eight years I was near bankruptcy. I got 850 rejections my first year as a book packager, that we were within weeks of having to lay off every single person in the organization, that my wife and I went window shopping in restaurants. That was part of the deal, but not one person in those days came up to me and said, oh, you must be a boring leader. Not one. Yeah, I think that's, that's part, that's why this thing exists, man,

because I love to be able to learn daily and write about it and listen to it from others directly. And that's why I love it. And I read recently a blog post by you where you talked about the podcasting surplus. And this is a little bit more personal to me because I have a podcast, obviously. And you mentioned that it might not be as good as blogging because there simply isn't enough time. And it's not as easy to share as blogging or something else. and you listed some of your favorite podcast. And I just wanted to question you a little bit on this because you said, you know,

this could be a tough thing for podcasters because of the time, the sharing issue. And I was thinking when I read that, though, that currently only 25% of Americans listen to podcasts. So I think the market for listening to podcasts still is, we're still just on the cuss. We're even scratching the surface of where it's going to be. especially with the help of podcasts like Serial and Dan Carlin's hardcore history and some of the other really good ones that people want to get into, I believe that it's only going to continuously grow, which then expands the market for people to actually listen. So even the ones, if they are having to make a choice, because there is limited time, there's going to be more people making that choice. What do you think?

Oh, there's no question that you're correct. I love podcasts, and these are early days. The economics that I was talking about have two elements. One, every time a new podcast comes out and is put in front of someone who listens to podcasts, they now have to decide to not listen to something else in order to listen to that one. That's pretty new. That's a big challenge. And that's what network TV lived with for years and years.

You can't watch what's on Channel 2 and watch what's on Channel 4 at the same time. And the second challenge is that because it feels so good to have a podcast, and very human and real, lots of people want to do it, and the cost of starting a podcast is basically zero. That means that there are more podcasts coming on than can be consumed. The challenge you have, therefore, is it's almost impossible to monetize it because the dip might not even be a dip, it might be a dead end. You might not be able to outlast the market and get out to the other side.

It may be that the typical podcast stays at 300 listeners for long, long periods of time. And I think there's nothing wrong with a podcast with 300 listeners, but it's a mistake to think that that podcast is going to make a profit. Gotcha. Okay, it makes sense. Two more questions. One, do you think you'll ever start tweeting?

No. Never. Why? Because to be the best in the world, you have to make choices. And I could be a mediocre blogger and a mediocre Twitter user at the same time, or I can choose to do one. and so that's problem number one is making very intelligent choices. I don't use Facebook.

I don't use Pinterest. I don't use Instagram. So all my eggs in one basket. Number two is my personality is such that I don't respond well to anonymous criticism. And Twitter is the home of anonymous criticism. So why would I go hang out there? Exactly right. And it's still amazing.

This is Seth's blog, which just post links to your blog, still has tons of followers and you don't correspond at all. Just put the links out there. So I just thought that was interesting. Final question, Seth, this is around the whole, I mentioned before since we've been talking that the whole purpose behind doing this for me is the fact that I'm fascinated and curious when it comes to the art and science of leadership and constantly learning

and striving to get better. And I'm curious, when you saw that first email over nine months ago and you saw that the title of my show that at that point wasn't even released. Learning Leader, what is the first thing that pops into your mind when you hear that phrase? Oh, I will admit that the first thing that pops into my mind is that you're overthinking this. Okay. Very few people care as much about the name of an author's book as the author does. that if I said to you, what did you like about the cover of Lynchpin,

you would struggle maybe to think about it, but I thought about it for a year. Yeah. So I think what people remember and what people react to are not a few words on a title, but what did the experience change for them? And if this interview is any indication you are working super hard to make change happen,

and I think that as that change resonates with people, they will not forget you for a long time. Thank you very much. I appreciate that, Seth. Well, thank you again for being here, investing your time with me and the listeners here at the Learning Leaders Show. Is there anywhere you would point people to go online? You can type Seth into Google to see what I'm up to.

My new workshop is called the Alt MBA, which is easy to find. But mostly, I would rather have people look at what they're doing today and decide to make a ruckus. Love it, man. So good. All right, Seth, thank you so much. And I really look forward to continuing our dialogue as we both continue this journey, man. Thanks so much. All right. Be well. You too. Bye. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to Learning Leadershow.com for more information and to request

your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on The Learning Leader Show.