The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 090: Seth Mattison – Generational Shifts: Why Some Millennials Fail

Episode Date: January 18, 2016

Episode 090: Seth Mattison – Generational Shifts: Why Some Millennials Fail Seth Mattison is an incredible learning leader.  I am so happy that Ryan Estis introduced us.  He’s become a fast friend and is one of the reasons why I love doing this so.  Seth is deeply interested in people and living lives of meaning and purpose.  Seth brings massive energy and action oriented advice on how we can improve ourselves as leaders.  We are extremely fortunate to have Seth share his knowledge with us, the loyal listeners of The Learning Leader Show.  Seth advises world-leading brands and organizations on the key shifts happening around talent management, change and innovation, leadership, and the future of work.  He started formally studying workforce trends and generational dynamics 10 years ago and has spent a lifetime learning about how each generation’s story shapes their view of the world and trends impacting our society. Episode 090: Seth Mattison – Generational Shifts: Why Some Millennials Fail Subscribe on iTunes  or Stitcher Radio The Learning Leader Show “DO NOT say, “Can I pick your brain?” In This Episode, You Will Learn: “Resiliency (refuse to bend), Generous, Discipline” are the qualities of people who sustain excellence over long periods of time Generational shifts and why we’re in the middle of a huge one right now How being a 4th generation farmer built Seth’s work ethic The massive parenting shift and why it hurts millennials if they don’t get knocked down The specific qualities hiring managers are looking for How we can create more mental resiliency The extremes taken in order to find and work for Seth’s heroes (donating blood in order to get money for food!) How you can create your own opportunities 3 Key topics in a person: Curiosity Enthusiasm Willing to pay your dues Being intentional when seeking out mentors.  How to add value to them Do NOT say, “Can I pick your brain?” Seeing first to understand prior to making massive changes “We are witnessing the greatest fundamental shift the world has seen in the way we organize, collaborate, connect and contribute since the industrial revolution.” Continue Learning: Go To Seth’s website: com Read: When Generations Collide Follow Seth on Twitter: @sethmattison You may also like these episodes: Episode 001: How To Become A Master Connector With Jayson Gaignard From MasterMind Talks Episode 085: Jessica Lahey – Why Your Parenting Style Is Wrong Episode 004: How Todd Wagner (and Mark Cuban) Sold Broadcast.com To Yahoo! For $5.7 Billion Episode 010: Shane Snow – How To Accelerate Success Using Smart Cuts Did you enjoy the podcast? This was a jam packed episode full of great content.  Seth Mattison is leader who is constantly learning in order to help us all live a better life. Who do you know that needs to hear this?  Send them to The Learning Leader Show! Episode edited by the great J Scott Donnell  Bio From SethMattison.com Seth Mattison advises world-leading brands and organizations on the key shifts happening around talent management, change and innovation, leadership, and the future of work.  He started formally studying workforce trends and generational dynamics 10 years ago and has spent a lifetime learning about how each generation’s story shapes their view of the world and trends impacting our society.  

Instead of going in and trying to like change something ginormous, look for one, try to get one small win first. Find one small little thing, one small idea that you could get implemented, one small change, right? Go for something small so that you can earn some credibility. The other major thing you have to do is you have to get a champion, right? You find one champion inside the organization who will support you in the process of you pulling out your new idea. So if I can get a champion who's one of the senior executives or someone that people look up to, and I know that he or she will stick up for me and support me in my hope of pulling this new idea off, now I'm getting somewhere.

I've got a support champion. I pull off one small idea. I get some credibility. Now I have the right to go in and talk about maybe pulling something bigger off. But there's a process through it. I just see so many young people who they get frustrated. They're like, I've got all these great ideas and nobody listens to me. I can't pull anything off.

It's like you have to be intentional about it, gang. And if you do that, you're going to see some serious results. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. Hey, and welcome to The Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk.

so excited for tonight's featured leader. And first I want to say thank you for joining me here. I really appreciate the phenomenal feedback I've received over the last few weeks regarding some of our episodes. It means so much to me to receive the feedback on my website, learningleader.com, or emailing me Ryanhawk 12 at gmail.com. Thank you so much for that. And please continue to send the feedback because I love it.

On tonight's show with the featured leader, Seth Madison. He's an internationally renowned expert on work. workforce trends and generational dynamics. He's the founder of Future Site Labs. He advises many of the world's leading brands and organizations on the key shifts happening around talent management, change innovation, leadership, and the future of work. And recently, he was named to the editor's picks for favorite speakers by MeetingsNet. Love this conversation with Seth.

I could list off 15 different areas that I thought were phenomenal. I'll name just a couple. How the greatest leaders refuse to bend. They refuse to let their dreams die. And Seth has some great stories discussing this. And then another specific, incredible story about the six-month process of many cold calls Seth made in order just to get coffee with somebody who he wanted to be his mentor and the value that he worked to bring to him as well as what he needed to do in order just to live during

this time where he's making a very small amount of money while working for his mentor. I was inspired when Seth was telling his story. I know you will be too. And then why you should never, ever use the phrase, can I pick your brain when reaching out to a mentor? And I think you'll find that part both humorous as well as in foreign news. Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, it's Seth Madison. Seth, so excited to have you here on a learning leader show, man. I want to get this one kicked off with some umph to it.

So I got a quick question to get us going, and that's around people who have sustained excellence over an extended period of time. You are certainly one of those guys, and you've spent a lot of time around others who have sustained excellence over an extended period of time. What would you say are some of the common characteristics those people all seem to share? Well, first of all, Ryan, thanks. Thanks for having me. I've been looking forward to this. Great question. I'm honored to be thrown into that category. I mean, I think my immediate reaction was like, well, I don't know that I exactly fit that mold yet, but there's definitely, you know, I'd say three to four key characteristics that have kind of come to mind that I see in other people who have sustained success and that I want to emulate and I try.

I try to develop, foster and grow that within myself. And I think first and foremost, the first thing that comes to mind is resiliency. There are people who are incredibly resilient because no matter what, you're going to face through your journey. you're going to face some serious roadblocks, some serious dark valleys where, you know, whether the money runs out, everyone thinks your idea is stupid, or you personally, you're just like, you started out with this dream or this vision, and then all of a sudden you're in it and you're like, I have no idea if this thing's going to work. I mean, is this even real?

You know, you're listening to the marketplace. You're listening to the naysayers. And I just look at the people who were like, they refuse. to bend. I mean, they're making small changes. They're making the quote-unquote pivots when they need, but they refuse to let the dream die. And they keep showing up and they keep grinding. They're incredibly resilient. And to be honest, from a generational perspective, which is some of the work that I'm focusing on, generational dynamics, workforce trends, now that's one of the characteristics that I think you see kind of coming up in the next

generation where they are incredibly smart, incredibly innovative, fast, quick. But sometimes I wonder and I see some of the lacking around resiliency because they haven't necessarily taken a lot of lumps. They've been saved a lot or they haven't heard no or they haven't heard, you know what, that's a stupid idea because everything has been great for them. And you've got to be prepared and have the armor put on to say, first and foremost, if you're going to be successful, you're going to be incredibly resilient. So resiliency, number one, number two, most of the people that I've seen that have been incredibly successful that I'm surrounding myself with, of course, there's people who maybe fall out of this category,

but the people I want to surround myself with who have been successful are incredibly generous. These are people who they don't keep score, right? They show up into every single relationship and they say they look to see how they can add value. They're not keeping score, and they're finding ways to pour themselves into those around. them. And it's just almost universal. I see it. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and have been generous before they ever knew I would, without, without the thought of, I'm going to be able to pay them back someday in whatever capacity, not, not, not, not necessarily financially or with money, but relationships, ideas, inspiration, et cetera. So number one, resilient. Number two,

incredibly generous. They don't keep score. And I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, I think, the other one that comes to mind is it builds off the resiliency a little bit, but it is this idea of discipline. They have the ability every single day to get themselves into such a state that they can show up and they can hit the desk because, you know, we all, what do people say? You know, we all have the same 24 hours. What are you doing with yours? And the truth is, it takes freaking discipline. It's hard. It's hard at the end of the day. If you're working in a career and you're trying to launch something at night or you are an entrepreneur and it never really shuts off, you know, especially if you've got a significant other or kids, you sit down,

you have dinner, you're trying to hang out a little bit. And how easy is it to be, you know, flip on Netflix and watch the 15th episode of your favorite series instead of like going into the office, sitting down at the desk and being like, okay, I got to crank out, you know, a thousand words or I got a hammer on this particular project. And I don't feel like, do. You know, doing it right now. And the trick is the people who have been the most successful, it's like they don't do things just when it feels good or when they want to do it. They just do it every single day. And it doesn't matter what your gift, your trade, your, you know, your thing you're trying to bring you to the world. If you're an athlete, et cetera, the same same thing applies.

And I think a little bit, you know, not only seeing that in people that I highly respect that I saw have success over a long period of time, but I grew up on a fourth generation. farm, farming community. It was like first and foremost, principles that were drilled into my head was, you know, it doesn't matter if you're the smartest, if you're the fastest, if you're the strongest, but if you show up and you work your tail off every single day, pig-headed discipline, you can blow people's doors off. Anything is possible then.

So resiliency, generous and disciplined, I think are three things that really jump out at me on that front. I love it, man. This is just a phenomenal answer. when it comes to, you mentioned there briefly, Seth, that from a generational perspective, and I think this is kind of a dicey topic because as people progress in age, we all, as we get older, you know, we probably heard it when we were a little bit younger that the people who came before us said that we didn't work as hard or we weren't as disciplined as them. So do you think part of this is our age or is this a legit thing where there's not enough

adversity in the lives of the millennial generation? Because I always go back and forth, and I'm right on the verge, depending on when you say a millennial being in like my early 30s, like, what is that? You know, what's there? Or do you think there's something specific you can point to to say, you know what? No, I'm telling you, it's real. The adversity is not there. They have not faced enough to be able to get their lumps, get knocked down, so to speak,

so that they have to get themselves back up. Listen, it's a great question. I've been studying generational shifts in dynamics for a decade. One of the things people often say is, you know, and you kind of alluded to it, but not totally of just people will think, well, you know, as we get older, don't we all just become more the same? It's like youth is youth and eventually you grow out of it. And the truth is the theory, the study of generational dynamics, what we're looking at is,

you know, researchers have found that the events and conditions that take place during a group's formative years, right, in our formative years are roughly that period of time between 14 and roughly 24, the events and conditions that take place during that period of time have a tremendous lasting impact in shaping who they are as they get older. And there are some common themes that show up when we look at these generations, right? So you've got baby boomers born between 1446 and 1964, Generation Xers born from 65 to 79. Millennials, also known as Gen. born between 1980 and 1995. I think you and I both fall in kind of the front end of that generation.

And then the next new generation that is being called a number of things, the most common term being thrown around is generation Z, born from 96 to 2010. So to your question around this, you know, it's multi-layered, you know, whether it's work ethic, resiliency, et cetera. You're right. Past generations have always looked at youth and said they're not. not as tough. They didn't have to go through as much suffering. A lot of times it's paying dues. They didn't have to pay their dues at the same extent. There's some truth to that. However, one of the transformational shifts that we've seen play out between the millennials and now this next generation with Generation Z is that almost universally there was a parenting shift that took place.

For most baby boomers and extras, when you ask them about their parents, they will say a pretty common story. They'll say something to the effect of, you know what? I love, I love my mother or father. I love that man or woman if they passed away. But let me tell you something, it was a My Way or the highway type world with that man or that woman. There was never debate. There was never discussion. We got thrown to the back of the station wagon, taken wherever that dude wanted to go, period. End of story, right? Number one. Number two, for most boomers and exers and earlier generations, when they turned 18, right, their parents met him at the front door and it was like, we love you, we're proud of you, but hit the bricks, pal.

Like, you're on your own, right? And they were shoved out into the world. Now, as you move forward, baby boomers and extras now become parents, their children, millennials, and generation Z, right? What's the thought process there? We grew up in an environment where, you know, they're like, listen, that's how my parents were. But when I had children, baby boomers and extras saying, when I had kids, I at least wanted it to be a little bit of a conversation, a little bit of a debate.

we're going to work through things together as a family. It's not going to just be a my way or the highway. We're going to sit down, we'll work through it together. At the end of the day, I still have the final say, but we'll do it together. So you've got a whole generation of youth that have been coming of age, working through things together as a family unit, right? I mean, I jokingly say in my programs, it's like we've got generations who have been the chief technology officer in their home since they were eight years old, right?

They've been driving decisions with mom and dad. And the other thing that has happened is that it's not a knock on boomers and extras. I can totally relate to it. It's that desire to not want to see your children suffer to protect them from pain, to protect them from the pain and suffering that many times they had to go through, right? Whether that's, you know what, when you go off to college, you know, you're off the financial plan. You're on your own. And if you call me and tell me that you got macaroni and cheese and ramen noodles left,

I'm not sending, you don't have my credit card and I'm not sending you money. And you're going to have to take your lumps. Right? They're stepping in and saying, I don't want, I don't want Jessica to have to suffer like that. I don't want Tony to have to. I want to make sure they have it easier than what we had. That's a common theme. I want them to have it easier.

The other thing that was taken away is because, as millennials and Gen Z, because we've been involved in so many organized activities, organized sports, music, dance, recitals, you name it, science projects. A couple of things have happened. One, that whole idea of, you know, after work, you go and get a job, right? You started, for boomers and extras, you started working at 16, 17, 18 years of age, meaning you had to show up somewhere. You were responsible. And if you didn't, there were consequences for that. work has been taken away for a lot of these people. And again, mom and dad are like, it's not that they're trying to, you know, not set their kids up for success,

but they're saying, oh, they're in a lot of activities. I want us to be able to go on a family vacation in the summertime. I don't want, I don't want Tony to have to work. I don't want Jessica to have to work. Well, I'll just give them money. It's fine. So what happens? You fast forward, and now you have a 23 or a 24-year-old who shows up, and they've never worked before.

They never had to show up at 9 o'clock. and mom and dad have stepped in and saved them from some of the consequences from having to go through some of the pain. And what I see in here over and over and over again, and listen, some of it we have to take with a grain of salt. But at some point, there's some tribute there to be seen where I've got leaders and HR managers and directors who say, you know, we give some of this next generation some tough feedback and they fold. It's as if they've never been told they've had a bad idea before or they've never faced. some tough consequences before and they fold up shop and they say this place isn't for me. I'm not going to be able to be successful here. This person doesn't like me. It's not going to work out. They fold shop and they're out. Now, you could say, well, we've also got a wave of new entrepreneurs

that are coming up as well because the barriers to entry have been lowered and you've got a whole tech generation that are out there on the streets, learning to raise money, getting doors slammed in their face. That's a smaller group. You're a product of your environment. The same way you and I, we played college football, guess what? Some of our experience shaped us to have a little bit more resiliency than someone that didn't have that. But on the whole, Ryan, over and over and over again, we hear this come up. And what I'm saying is instead of blaming or complaining about it, I'm saying how do we start to train?

How do you recruit for resiliency? How do you train for some of the – can you teach work? work ethic to someone who shows up? Or do you need to hire it? What would be some of the characteristics you would look for? I've got some clients who have flat out stopped recruiting out of the Ivy League schools because they're like it just sometimes we feel like it brings with it a certain level of privilege that they haven't had to go through some of the tough stuff. We can recruit out of the Midwest and we'll get someone who shows up and they're grateful for the opportunity and they're willing to take some lumps. It's a broad-based statement,

but it's showing up enough that I think we have to have a conversation about it. Man, this is a really interesting topic because I was going to ask you that what was going through my mind was, I think there's a lot of accuracy in what you're saying, especially when, I mean, as a dad, like, I find myself in those situations where, yeah, I don't want to, it's painful as a parent to see your child fail. I just, I had a great, I talked with, spoke with a great leader who's on a previous episode, Jessica Leahy, and she wrote a phenomenal book called The Gift of Failure. where we talk about, you know, the one brief example, if your kid leaves their science project on the kitchen table, and you can easily take it to school and help them out so that they get the necessary grade that they feel they deserve because they finished it and it's great. But the fact that they forgot it means that you should let them suffer the consequences of forgetting that so that they learn. And that's just a small example, but it kind of illustrates the point. Yeah, illustrates the point of, as you put it, taking the lumps.

Because I firmly, you know, we can talk sports now since we both play college football. You know, as a young kid, and I've talked about this before with other guests, my parents had me and my younger brother play up a level in sports, meaning if you're in second grade, you play with the third grade team and up and up and up as we kept going. And especially for me as a guy who was undersized for my own. growing up, I didn't really hit the gross sport until later on. There's some major lumps and there's not really anyone there to pick you up. You've got to pick yourself back up, especially playing football, which is really physical sport.

And so I think those, that's where that resiliency was built. That's where I learned a lot about failure. Now, with that said, I questioned if I was good enough, but that's okay. I think it's okay every once in a while to have those doubts because you're going to have doubts in everything you do in your life. It's even better than when you see that you've been able to achieve levels of success after having some pretty incredible doubts earlier in your life about really anything that you're going to do. So you bring up a good point. So can you as parents, as leaders, can you help prepare and coach and mentor mental resiliency without also at the same time saving someone from some of those? difficulties that they're going to go through, right? Can you teach mental resiliency? Can I give you

the skills and the tools to prepare you to face the dark black forest, the valley, the dip that you're going to have to go through? And no, I'm not going to be there to save you. And it does go back to mom and dad. And because you're a parent, you know this of it's so difficult to not want to step in and save. And I just think across the board and it's not, it's not a knock on current parents and baby boomers as parents, but if you sit down and you ask them in one-on-one conversations, and I've had thousands of one-on-one conversations with these people, and I say to them, whether are you as tough on your kids as your parents are, or would your dad have ever swooped in, and whether it was help you get the job, help you coach you up on the interview,

call your boss for you. Like at some point, you know, we hate those stereotypes, but at some point you have to take notice of like, you know, were bosses getting called before by, you know, employees, parents that didn't exist. You had to face that. So I don't want to, there's a million great things about millennials and the next generation Gen Z that's coming up. This is not about harping on them, but it's a specific trend that I'm watching play out.

And I know you're seeing it. And as a member of this generation, I just think it's worth a conversation. It's worth talking about that idea of resiliency. Let's get into it, Seth, for what you do for a living. Normally we'd have kind of a brief bio of you, but we got into such good, deep stuff instantly that we just kept going. But talk to me about what you do currently and how you've gotten to this point. So I am writing, speaking, and consulting on workplace trends, generational shifts, kind of the future

of work. What's coming next? How do we prepare as leaders, as, as you? individual contributors to kind of navigate this new world of work. I started, I started really with a specific focus and deep research into generational shifts, generational transformations. And my aha network was in that when we study the generations, particularly when you study youth, it really gives you a pretty good indication as to what is going to be coming next, whether it's in the world of work, entertainment, the marketplace, et cetera. It's kind of a future indicator.

And so I made a transformation out of, instead of being kind of laser focused and narrowed into the generational space, I kind of opened it up into more broader future of work workplace trends. In terms of how I got into this, the cliff notes, the 10,000 view story on that is, I go back to what I mentioned earlier, is I grew up on a fourth generation farm in southern Minnesota. So I grew up literally working alongside my great-grandfather, grandfather, father. My great-grandfather was born in 1910. So, you know, this is a man who was around to see the impacts of everything from World War I, stock market crash, Great Depression, World War II, Civil Rights, Vietnam, you know, just all of it. And it was an unbelievable opportunity to kind of come of age around three generations of storytellers. And it just kind of was intuitive.

I was unconsciously aware of these things. I didn't even know what I was really becoming intuitive about. It just was the world I lived in of, wow, each one of those generations of men of leaders saw the world from a very different perspective. They thought about leadership differently. They thought about money and loyalty

and relationships and communication differently. And I learned how to show up. I mean, it's like, the way I needed to approach my dad to get out of doing chores was different than the way I needed to approach my great-grandfather on that. And so it led me, the universe kind of opened up paths for that to really show up in my life later on to be a fantastic asset. When I came out of university, I went to work for a management consulting firm that did work around leadership, executive

alignment, culture change, process improvement type work. So people process and leadership. And when I first got there and I'm sitting down with our clients and they're primarily from, you know, at the C-suite level inside. companies. And Ryan, these people were looking at me like, what the hell are you going to tell me about leadership development culture, man? You're like the same age as my kid, you know? And of course, I'm feeling that across the table. And so I can tell them until I was blue in the face that like, I'm not there to solve their problems. I'm there to bring them the resources and the assets, the 30-year veteran consultants to do the work. But I'm here to uncover some

of the challenges. It wouldn't matter. So to bridge the gap, I started asking, and more specific questions about their younger workforce. So I would say something like, just simple, I would just be like, you know, tell me about your internship program or your new college recruiting, like, what's going on with your new hires? And this is an 0607 time frame. And so, you know, the generation topic wasn't being talked about as much. We didn't have the social media, you know, the pipeline of information blasting us every day.

And so it was less talked about, less known. but the pain that came pouring out of these leaders' mouths as they started to talk about their frustrations with, you know, this is really when you and I are kind of starting to enter the workplace, was so apparent. And the alarm bells are going off in my mind of, okay, here's an opportunity where there is pain in the marketplace. And for the first time, my age is actually a benefit, right? Because I am a representation of this group, these people are leaning into me and they're saying, you know, tell me what it is. that you want, your generation. Is it more money? Is it more involvement? Meaning time off? And it was almost as if I kind of became their inside guy to the next generation of talent and the workforce. And so I started studying everything I could on the topic. And I found one of the books that I picked up was by two authors named David Stillman and Lynn Lancaster. And they wrote a bestseller back in 2002 called When Generations Collide. And I look it up and I see that David was based in Minneapolis, which is where I was living at the time. I came out of university and went to

Minneapolis, Minnesota. And I had made a living on, you know, just picking up the phone and working in network and cold calling people and finding a way to break in. And I called David for about six months to get past his, you know, just total gatekeeper from hell who never let anyone through to finally break through to this guy and convince him to have breakfast and coffee. And we met And I just hit him with all of my ideas about how, you know, we should be collaborating. This is meant to be. He was an exor. His business partner was a boomer.

I was a millennial. It should be the three of us. I'm the voice of the next generation. This is going to be amazing. And, you know, he's looking at me like, you know, who is this kid? He's crazy. I just met this guy. But he basically says to me, you know what?

If you want to learn how to speak, you want to understand how to, you know, bring content to the world, I will mentor you and help you. looking to hire right now today, but we'll stay in touch. And so we did, and I stayed on his radar for almost a full year. And then they got the green light to write a new book at the time. This is back in 08 on the millennial generation called the M factor, how the millennial generation is rocking the workplace. And it was like getting called up to the big leagues. You know, the phone rings. And he's like, listen, we got the green light. We think you can help. We think you'd be an asset. And, you know, we'll speak on this and you can help us research, et cetera. And so I, I, I, I

kind of got launched off of their platform. I stopped, you know, very blessed. I stepped onto a platform of, with a decades worth of research, a bestselling book behind it already, access to incredible clients, and most importantly, two world-class speakers who I then had the opportunity to go out and speak with each of them, all three of us together, and learn the craft, not only learn the theory of generational shifts and leadership trends, but the craft of going, out in front of whether it's 100 people or 2,000 people, moving in audience, you know, through content and helping them have aha moments that leave lasting impressions was priceless. And I had to go out and give, you know, this goes back to resiliency and taking lumps.

I had to go out and give, and you better bet your ass the first couple of years. I gave some not-so-great speeches, right? I was literally, you know, withering out there on the vine, sometimes right next to a world-class speaker, you know, which becomes even more painful when they're polished and perfect next to you. But I refused to fold up shop and I just said, you know, I just got to keep working on. I got to keep coming out here. I got to keep doing it. And eventually, you know, the first phase you kind of, you start to emulate those people. You try to sound like them. I would try to sound like David and Lynn. I think we all do that in our careers, but then you keep hammering on it, and pretty soon you start to sound like yourself. And there is this magical moment when you finally, in whatever your art, your craft is, whether it's a musical instrument or writing,

or filling in the blank, when you get to show up in your arena, in your stage, and you sound like you, your most authentic version of yourself, that is a moment of pure bliss. and to this day I am still, I'm not there yet. It's like I'm starting to sound more like me, I think, but every day as you show up and you keep trying to get to that place of your most authentic version. So the work today is about writing these concepts, these trends of what's coming next in the world of work and leadership and going out there and delivering content, whether it's through keynote speeches or small workshops with leadership, teams from from around the world. Seth, man, I love that story.

Specifically, I'm fascinated by origin stories and how things get started and why. And especially when people look at things and, you know, go to go to your website, look at you online and look at all the videos of you speaking. You're like, whoa, like this dude has, he's crushing it. He's making it happen. But what people don't always realize is the fact that you're sitting there cold. calling an author that you admire for six months just to be able to meet with him to talk, to meet him.

I love that part of these stories because that's what I found to be a comment. I just spoke with a great author named Ryan Holiday. The obstacle was the way. And Ryan mentioned something very similar. Yeah. And he said something very similar, the fact that he was willing to go work for free for great people that he admired because he knew it would be worth it in the long run. And I think that's the difference between people who sustain excellence over extended periods of time and those who don't.

It's the fact that you're going to be resilient and your aggressive approach to meeting somebody that you admire because you believe in them. You want to work with them. You just want to find a way to be around them. If there's one key message or takeaway that I think people could take, is if you find or you see somebody like that without being a stalker. But be resilient and go after it, that person to sit down and have coffee with them, to bring value to that relationship for the person that maybe you're, that you view as a hero of yours. If you can find a way to bring them value, then who knows what potential opportunity could

come next. Amen. Amen. And I will add to this only because it's kind of been teed up. This is, it's normally not something I talk about. I've actually never written, written this story. I've never said it in public on. stage, but I think it's important for viewers to hear this because you bring it to my attention

of like, it is. It's easy to go to my website. It's easy to go to people that we look up to and be like, it's so lucky. Like, God, if I just, we don't see all the prices they paid. And here's the truth. When I started with David and Lynn, it was 08 going into 09. Anybody remember what happened to our economy at that time? Wasn't that good? We went into the toilet. And one of the first things that companies cut is their learning and development and conference budgets. So the speaking business took a tremendous hit going into 2009. And we were in a situation where they, quite frankly, did not have the resources to be able to pay, you know, really even, you know, barely a livable salary. And this was not a knock against them.

It was just it was survival mode. And for that, the first six months of that year, Ryan, I donated blood platelets two times a week to make $60. every week to put an extra $240 together for the month that was enough to put gas in my car. That fall, you know, was like, they don't even know if they're going to be able to continue. I'm literally asking my network, right? One of the CEOs who owned a warehouse packaging shipping company

if I could go into the warehouse and work at night so that I could keep this going because I was not ready. I refused to let go of this dream. of being able to work with these two authors and to be able to someday get to step out on that stage. But no one knows that story. And I don't normally talk about that. And I'm not even telling you this now to be like, you know, aren't I a badass? But you do bring up the point of I think it is important for people to know and to think it's like, what are you willing to pay?

What price are you willing to pay to make that dream come true? Because guess what? Everyone has to pay. What a story. Wow. I mean, that gives an incredible visual to what it takes, man. You know, I mean, there's a lot that goes into it that the old adage too when when you hear or you see these overnight successes, it's the overnight part is like 15 years, you know, normally. Especially like with the musicians, you hear them like, wow, all of a sudden they're big time. Well, they played in bars with 15 people for 10 years.

and all of a sudden they've made it. I think there's something very similar, and it's inspiring to me to hear those types of stories to now where you are, you know, like I said, go online, Google your name, and you'll see and all the videos and the great talks that you give. And I'm curious just to change gears a little bit now. So when you go and speak with companies

and you consult or workshops, and you talk about hiring, specifically because I think that the listeners here are in this, a lot of them are in this age range of where they're going out to interview for jobs. When you do that, what are some of the, like, what are those conversations like with HR departments or with companies when you say, what specifically are you looking for? I know it's determined based on, you know, what exactly is the role? Because you don't look for the exact same person regardless of the role.

But what are some of the characteristics that people need to bring to add value to companies, whether they're large or small. It's a great question. You know, there's a couple of things that come to mind, and you're absolutely right. You know, some of the technical skills have to be in place. But, you know, we're hearing more and more from hiring managers that they're like, they're even reevaluating some of those things and saying we can teach, we can train some of those things. But what do we know we have advantage if we can get a candidate who comes in,

who has a couple of different things? One of them is a curious, a curious. mindset, right? So they come in with this mindset of, I don't believe that I have it all figured out. And I think this is really important because a lot of times we come in, and particularly for the younger generation, you are going to come in and you actually probably do know, particularly around technology and how to get things done faster and leveraging apps and programs. You can walk into a, you know, a department or a group and look at some of their processes and be like, oh my gosh, you know, I can write a program that could help us do that 10 times fast.

or just seeing it with fresh eyes, bring that enthusiasm. We want those ideas, but also want someone who comes in and is curious in wanting to understand and learn everything they can. So someone who walks in and they have a mindset of like, wow, there's people in here with 15 and 20 years of experience. I want to try to gobble up everything I possibly can from these people, right? I'm going to listen more than I talk. That doesn't mean don't bring your ideas. It doesn't mean don't be enthusiastic and like, you know, try to make change, but be curious. Seek first to listen and hear and understand before being understood. That is so incredibly important. So curiosity, number one, right? Number two, big thing that comes up all the time is, is this idea

of enthusiasm, right? The infectious energy to come in and want to create something special, to light the place up. Because the truth is, and I hear this from Ludov. all the time. It's like, it's inevitable. You're doing your role or a job or work for 10, 20, 25 plus years. You'll lose some of the excitement. And I see it play out a lot of times with teams we're working with. They'll be like, man, we brought in four new hires, four people right out of university, and the energy they brought to the table just totally changed the dynamic of our culture. And we love it and we're trying to harness it. You know, they'll be like, ah, sometimes there may be a little out there and we kind of got to reel them back in.

but man do we love that enthusiasm and that energy. So the point to that is, is like if you're showing up and you suck the life out of the room, right, you're just, you're not fired up, you're not enthusiastic about this place, you're not going through the motions. And it's a big time problem.

So curious, super enthusiastic. And then there's this element of being willing to pay your dues a little bit. And this goes to this idea, of like, even if you know, and it's so interesting to watch this play out today, where I've got a couple of clients I'm working with where they have someone who's maybe two or three years into their career. And the truth is they can do their particular function, their role, as well as someone they're sitting next to who's been there for 15 or 20 years. They're literally able to do it as well. And in their mind, then they're thinking that they

can get out of having to do some of the less sexy tasks or that they should, should be making as much or more money than that person. And I think that's an interesting conversation to have of, you know, do you pay? Is there some, some value in 20 years of experience, even if you're doing the same work? My point to the people who are listening, who are thinking about their own careers, trying to get a job, is be the person who's not above any task. Be the person who's not above any task. You do whatever is asked of you.

You show up early, you stay late. Some of those core principles that have existed forever, what I'm telling you, is less and less people are willing to do that, so you will stand out more and more if you are. Curiosity, be curious, be enthusiastic, and be willing to go in there and do the things most people won't, pay the dues a little bit, do the tough stuff. These are some of the intangibles that leaders and hiring managers are looking for, and if you can find ways to articulate that in an interview process and bring that to life, even better. So good.

So good. I love it. What about from a mentor perspective? There's a lot out there on this, and it's really important, I believe, to have a good core group of mentors who are willing to give you constructive feedback. People who have been there before you, they can show you the way. And obviously, you just told the great story of how you aggressively pursued people to mentor you. I'd love to hear some of your tips and actionable advice to people who say,

I'd love to have mentors. I hear about all the time. I know it's really important, but I just, yeah, I'm not, I'm not really, it's not, I'm not making it happen right now. I can't find the right ones and the ones who I want to be aren't really willing. So what, what should I do? Yeah, great, great question. So, I mean, it's a couple of things.

One, though, it's, first and foremost, it starts with intentionality. You have to be, you have to bring a tremendous amount of intention to the process. And what I mean by there is, it can't just be, oh, gosh, I'd really like to have Ryan as a mentor. and maybe I shoot him a couple of tweets and ask him if, you know, maybe he'd like to mentor me. You've got to have a plan. And the first things in that plan is even if you want someone to mentor you, even if they have 25 more years of experiencing you, there is always a way to add value to someone else's life. So if I want to get access to Ryan, it's like spending a little bit of time and instead of leading with the ask,

it's finding a way to lead with a little bit of generosity. Is there one small thing that I could do that would add value to you? Right? Maybe, you know, honestly, if I'm thinking about you, I'm thinking it would be easy to be like, I'm sure Ryan has access to everybody. He couldn't possibly need any ideas or references or referrals. Bullshit. Yeah.

Even if he does, who cares? If someone sends you a note that you've never met before and they're like, hey, I'm a, number one, I'm a big fan of your show. I follow all your stuff. You know, I followed you when you played football at Ohio. whatever, and I was thinking about you the other day, and I've, in the past couple of years, I've met three people that I think would be great for your show, and I could give you, I could connect you to them.

Here's their names. Let me know if you'd like to connect, you know, blah, blah, blah. Lead with some generosity. All of a sudden, now I'm having a very different conversation with you than if I had led with, I'd really like to start my own podcast and I'm really, you know, is there any way you could help me? Or can I pick your brain, which is a phrase that really bothers me at Earth? me, man. That happens too much. And I understand what people mean when they say it. I completely get it. And I don't want anyone to be offended that's said that to me literally within the last 24 hours.

But I think, but I think I just don't like that phrase. I would say just use something else. You know, or like you said, and I've also had, just like you mentioned, I have had young, young people or people of all ages actually shoot me a note saying, hey, so and so is phenomenal. and I think he or she would be so great to be on your show. Would you like me to introduce you? Here's how I know them. And I'm so impressed by that. And then, yeah, they'll have an ask to go with it at some point. And sometimes they don't have an ask.

They're literally just giving, which is incredible. And I love that. But that's why the advice you're giving is so on point for what I think is from finding a mentor perspective because so many of these guys or girls are hearing the, hey can I have 15, 20 minutes to pick your brain and buy you coffee? They hear that every day. You know what I mean? It's the worst.

If you're listening to this, if you're listening to this and you've, and listen, I've been guilty of it in the past too, so this is not scolding. And this is the, you know, the pot call on the cattle block. I've been guilty of it, but I had a mentor who coached me up on it. So the whole idea of leading with generosity of the thing and you started to allude to this is to be totally transparent with your ask. Yeah. So if I want to get, instead of saying, can I pick your brain and have coffee, I'm going to write you and I say, I know, I know you're incredibly busy and I'd be willing to bet you get 10 of these every single day.

What I would love is 15 minutes of your time to talk about these two specific things. These are two areas of my life that I'm trying to work on. This is what I'd love to talk about. So you know going into it, the time commitment that's involved and exactly what they're looking for. again, it just kind of removed some of the uneasiness of like, now they got to ask me to invest in their company, are they trying to get a job, is this an hour? And until you get to a position where you're receiving, you see how many phone calls and emails come in of people saying, you know, can I pick your brain?

You start to understand it's difficult. And listen, and I'm sure you're in the same boat. I want to send the elevator, not that I'm on the top floor. I'm not. I'm like on the middle floor, right? But I still want to send the elevator down to the people on the ground. floor, right, to help them as much as possible. But you get overwhelmed with the asks.

You know, can we have coffee and pick your brain? So on the mentoring front, those are some really important things. Lead, you know, give, lead, be transparent with the ask and go into it. And I would say, be very, very intentional. You know, before I would go into that meeting and Ryan maybe talked about this is something that he and I always get into is this whole idea of like. Ryan Sest is correct. Ryan Sest is correct.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, correct. Ryan Estes is before sitting down in any meeting, whether it's with a mentor or someone else, is preparing three to four effective open-ended questions before you even go. So if I have a meeting with you, Ryan Hawk, it's like, I'm going to sit down. I'm going to have three to four effective open-ended questions already prepared so that I am making the maximum use of our time together instead of just sitting down with you and be like, so tell me how you got started in this and what would be your advice?

No, no, no. I love that. That's great actionable advice to be prepared for those meetings. When you get to your moment or your opportunity, for me, nothing impresses me more than somebody who asks really insightful, well-thought-out, researched questions. And then they listen to what you say, and then their follow-up questions are based on listening to exactly what you said instead of just reading down the list. So it's a combination of both of those.

thing. So this is really great stuff, Seth. I think we're going to have to maybe do another one here. Maybe when you have a book come out or something coming up that I'd love to talk to you. I know we're getting up, want to start wrapping up here. I got a question for you, though. Before we go to your question, let me, I just want to throw one more idea out there that I think would be hugely valuable, especially for either young entrepreneurs or young people early in their career in a company. and that, because this comes up all the time, and I'll make this brief. But it's this whole idea of wanting to be innovative, wanting to kind of have that entrepreneurial spirit inside of a company, wanting to bring new ideas and change inside the company. How do you sell your ideas?

I get that all the time. And the best advice I can give you is first and foremost, before you go in and you're going to see it with fresh eyes and you're like, oh, my God, there's so much change we could pull off in here, is take, whether it's three months, six months, the first year, and just become a master of all of the systems and how things work in their current form right now. Because you have to know is that what you're seeing took 20 or 30 years of iteration and change to get to that. But if you come in on day one and you're looking at whatever that process, whatever that technology is, and you're like, oh my God, this thing looks like it's from the Stone Age. How long have you been doing this?

In 1979, the person you're saying that to could be the very person who created that piece of technology, that process, etc. It's incredibly offensive way to start out the process. So understand the systems. One, two, instead of going in and trying to like change something ginormous, look for one, try to get one small win first. Find one small little thing, one small idea that you could get implemented, one small change, right? Go for something small so that you can earn some credibility. The other major thing you have to do is you have to get a champion, right? you find one champion inside the organization who will support you in the process of you pulling

out your new idea. So if I can get a champion who's one of the senior executives or someone that people look up to, and I know that he or she will stick up for me and support me in my hope of pulling this new idea off, now I'm getting somewhere. I've got a support champion. I pull off one small idea. I get some credibility. Now I have the right to go in and talk about maybe pulling something bigger off. But there's a process through it. I just see so many young people who who they get frustrated. They're like, I've got all these great ideas and nobody listens to me. I can't pull anything off.

It's like you have to be intentional about it, gang. And if you do that, you're going to see some serious results. Really good. That's great advice. I was just reading an article. I wish I get to cited. But basically it said if you take over a new leadership role, let's say in a corporation, you know, people listening have this has happened to them, obviously,

where you're brought in as a manager or director or vice president of some part of a business. The best ones, actually I know, which one's Adam Grant, and originals, his new book just coming out. He talks about the fact that you don't need to go in and immediately just flip the organization upside down, just for change's sake. Yes. Go into the organization as a learner.

Understand what's going on. What's going well? What's not? What needs to be changed? But don't just go in there and start firing everybody to put your big stamp on the organization. the insecure leaders are going to go do that. They're going to come in and instantly shake things up to say,

hey, the big boss is here, man. Like, I'm here now. And the secure, intelligent, great thinking type of leaders will come in and learn first, get an understanding for what is going on and then gradually implement and make the changes. Like you said, you could even do it one at a time, get your one. And then people will be bought in because they don't think you're coming in there just to flip it upside down. Because anytime there's change in leadership, people are nervous. Oh, God, what's going to happen?

What's going to happen? And you come and say, hey, it's okay. I'm here to learn. I'm here to listen. Genuinely. And then your actions have to follow that, though. You can't just say it. You've got to go and do it.

And when you do, that's when you create an opportunity to really have a positive impact wherever you go. Amen. So, again, said this has been a. really enjoyable conversation for me. So I have one final question that's around the fact that, you know, I love leadership. I love the fact that it's a skill that can be learned over time. You're not necessarily born with it. We might have some innate traits. However, it's something that you can truly become world class at it if you are intentional and you work at it. And so that's the whole point of the learning leader show.

I know it's kind of a duplicative term, but it's that way by definition. I just wanted to get from you, when you hear that phrase learning leader, what's the first thing that comes to mind? I think it goes back to curiosity, right? It's having this natural curiosity about how things work, how people operate, what motivates people, wanting first, seeking first to understand. A learning leader has that kind of mindset. And it just, it permeates every single thing that you do, whether it's how you, you know, how intentionally you are with how you start your morning. What are you reading?

Who are you listening to? To the way you conduct yourself in a meeting. Are you the first to jump in and try to, you know, deliver your point and make sure people understand your perspective? Or do you sit back and pull and encourage people to bring forward their ideas, their thoughts, their feelings first, process that and then give some context and perspective around it? That, to me, I think, is the. epitome of what a learning leader is.

Could not agree more. I can definitely just write on point. Seth, where can everyone go to find you online? Easy to find at Seth Madison and SethMadison.com. Just that handle. And it's M-A-T-T-I-S-O-N. You know, I've been able to grab that on pretty much everything. So whether you're getting me on Facebook, Instagram, my website, SethMadison.

Matteson, et cetera. LinkedIn, I'm there. and we're trying to put out fun content, trying to get people engaged. I look forward to having conversations with everybody that's listening, and I'm down to help in any way I can. Perfect, man.

I love it. Well, thanks again for being here, Seth. I love this one, and look forward for us to continue this dialogue as we both progress. Likewise. Thanks so much for having me, Ryan. Take care.

Take care. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to Learningleadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again and we'll see you next time on the Learning Leader Show.