The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 096: Maria Konnikova – Con Artists: Why We Fall For It Every Time

Episode Date: February 8, 2016

Episode 096: Maria Konnikova – Con Artists: Why We Fall For It Every Time This episode is brought to you by Mizzen+Main.  My newest favorite shirts are Mizzen+Main. I work out every day and I enjoy the feel of my workout clothes. These shirts feel exactly like my workout gear does. The 4 way stretch fabric is like no other dress shirt I’ve ever felt before. Originally I purchased one shirt to try them out. When someone told me they would feel like my workout clothes, I didn’t believe them. Then I ordered one… After feeling the shirt and wearing it, I immediately purchased 6 more button down dress shirts and two Henley’s. They are my best looking, best fitting, and certainly the best feeling shirts I’ve ever worn. I promise you will agree after trying one on.  A few Mizzen+Main shirts would make for a great gift for anyone who wears button down shirts.  After you try 1 or 3 out, send me a tweet @RyanHawk12 to let me know your thoughts!  When you go to check out, use the code “ryanhawk” for free overnight shipping or if you want to buy 3 shirts (which is what I do), use the code “ryanhawk3” and you will receive $50 off! Maria Konnikova is one of the most intelligent people I’ve spoken to on The Learning Leader Show… In addition to that, she expresses her thoughts in both an entertaining and educational way.  If time would have permitted, I would have spoken to Maria for hours.  The topic of “con-men” is something Maria has studied for years.  Her newest book, “The Confidence Game” is a fascinating look into the lives of people who con others for a living.  Maria interviewed many of them first hand.  We discussed this in detail on this episode. This fascinates me.  I loved learning more about this from Maria. Maria Konnikova is a contributing writer for The New Yorker, where she writes a regular column with a focus on psychology and culture, and is currently working on an assortment of non-fiction and fiction projects. Her first book, Mastermind: How to Think Like Sherlock Holmes was a New York Times bestseller and has been translated into eighteen languages. It was nominated for the Agatha Award and the Anthony Award for Best Non-fiction and was a Goodreads People’s Choice Semifinalist for 2013. Her second book, The Confidence Game was released January 12, 2016. Her writing has appeared online and in print in The New Yorker, The Atlantic, The New York Times, Slate, California Sunday, Pacific Standard, The New Republic, The Paris Review, The Wall Street Journal, Salon, The Boston Globe, among numerous other publications. Maria is a recipient of the 2015 Harvard Medical School Media Fellowship, and is a Schachter Writing Fellow at Columbia University’s Motivation Science Center.  She graduated magna cum laude from Harvard University, where she studied psychology, creative writing, and government, and received her Ph.D. in Psychology from Columbia University. She previously worked as a producer for the Charlie Rose show on PBS. Episode 096: Maria Konnikova – Con Artists: Why We Fall For It Every Time Subscribe on iTunes  or Stitcher Radio The Learning Leader Show “Men on first dates are beautiful targets for con-artists.” In This Episode, You Will Learn: All con artists are Narcissistic, Entitled, and Machiavellian Victims of con artists are not what you think The process for studying and writing a phenomenal book about this topic Why and How Lance Armstrong is still conning us The red flags to look out for Why guys on first dates are beautiful targets for con artists Her firsthand experience with a con artist while on a date The Grandparent scam and how to prepare for it What could we use for good from this knowledge? Persuasion, building emotional rapport, being a great listener – Cons are great at this The “Foot In The Door” Technique and why it works Has Maria ever been conned? Her answer is interesting and will make you think about yourself and if you’ve been conned (You probably have)  “If it seems too good to be true, it is.” Continue Learning: Go To Maria’s website: MariaKonnikova.com   Read: The Confidence Game Read: Mastermind - How To Think Like Sherlock Holmes Follow Maria on Twitter: @mkonnikova You may also like these episodes: Episode 001: How To Become A Master Connector With Jayson Gaignard From MasterMind Talks Episode 085: Jessica Lahey – Why Your Parenting Style Is Wrong Episode 004: How Todd Wagner (and Mark Cuban) Sold Broadcast.com To Yahoo! For $5.7 Billion Episode 010: Shane Snow – How To Accelerate Success Using Smart Cuts Did you enjoy the podcast? This was a jam packed episode full of great content.  Clayton Morris is leader who is constantly learning in order to help us all live a better life. Who do you know that needs to hear this?  Send them to The Learning Leader Show! Episode edited by the great J Scott Donnell Bio From MariaKonnikova.com   Maria is a contributing writer for The New Yorker, where she writes a regular column with a focus on psychology and culture, and is currently working on an assortment of non-fiction and fiction projects. Her first book, Mastermind: How to Think Like Sherlock Holmes (Viking/Penguin, 2013), was a New York Times bestseller and has been translated into eighteen languages. It was nominated for the Agatha Award and the Anthony Award for Best Non-fiction and was a Goodreads People’s Choice Semifinalist for 2013. Her second book, The Confidence Game, is scheduled for publication by Viking/Penguin on January 12, 2016. Her writing has appeared online and in print in The New Yorker, The Atlantic, The New York Times, Slate, California Sunday, Pacific Standard, The New Republic, The Paris Review, The Wall Street Journal, Salon, The Boston Globe, The Observer, Scientific American MIND, WIRED, and Scientific American, among numerous other publications. Maria is a recipient of the 2015 Harvard Medical School Media Fellowship, and is a Schachter Writing Fellow at Columbia University’s Motivation Science Center.  She formerly wrote the “Literally Psyched” column for Scientific American and the popular psychology blog “Artful Choice” for Big Think. She graduated magna cum laude from Harvard University, where she studied psychology, creative writing, and government, and received her Ph.D. in Psychology from Columbia University. She previously worked as a producer for the Charlie Rose show on PBS. She still, on occasion, writes in Russian.

Well, here's the problem. I can talk about red flags, but if you are personally in the middle of a con, you're not going to see them. Your friend who's not being con will see them because he's not in the middle of it and he is thinking rationally. But what the con artist does is ratchet up your emotions to the point where you don't really realize what's going on. And so the red flags aren't there for you. Now, one of the huge red flags that people miss completely when they're in the state, situation is that old dictum of if it seems too good to be true it probably is. So what ends up happening is we totally understand that theoretically. But when it's happening to us, we don't think it's too good to be true. We think we're finally getting what we deserve. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk.

Hey guys, before we get to this great conversation, I want to let you know that this episode was brought to you by Mizzen and Maine. You'll probably remember from episode 64, I spoke with the CEO of Mizn and Maine, Kevin LaVelle, and we promised to continue that dialogue as we both progressed on our journeys. We certainly have, and we formed a partnership. And Kevin and his great companies and support and people that he works with have agreed to sponsor my podcast. But for me, I'm very picky when it comes to this. I only wanted to work with people who I truly believed in their products.

So this is not just a sponsor to me. This is an endorsement. I absolutely believe in everything that Kevin and his company stands for. I love who they partner with, whether it's Tony Shays, Vegas Tech Fund, or the lone survivor, Marcus LaTrell's Fund, or Chris Kyle Frog Foundation. I love that, but I also most importantly love the product. Their shirts are my absolute favorite shirts.

They feel very similar to the clothes that I wear when I go and work out. And I didn't really believe that was possible until I tried one. But the four-way stretch fabric is literally like nothing I've ever felt before. And so originally I bought one just to try them out to see if this is really true. a button down shirt that looks great with a suit or in business casual. I'm like, there's no way this thing is going to feel like people tell me it will. Well, it felt even better than that. And so after I bought that first shirt, I ended up buying six more shirts and two Henleys. And so we've set up a deal for you guys to go to Ryan.misen and mane.com. So that's Ryan.

Dot mizzen and mane.com. Pick your favorite shirts. I love the button downs. You'll see on that site my favorite shirts. And when you're checking out, use the code Ryan Hawk to get free shipping if you're only buying one shirt. If you happen to want to buy three button downs like I've done a couple times, use the code Ryan Hawk 3 and you'll get $50 off. Again, I love Miz and Maine. I love everything they stand for. And I promise when you try the search, you will too. Hey and welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk, a thrilling episode tonight. with our featured leader Maria Konnikova. Maria is a contributing writer to the New Yorker

where she writes a regular column with a focus on psychology and culture. She also is a best-selling author. Her first book is called Mastermind, How to Think Like Sherlock Holmes. Her second book, The Primary Topic of Our Conversation Tonight, is called The Confidence Game,

Why We Fall for It Every Time. Maria also graduated from Harvard University where she studied psychology, creative writing and government, and she received her PhD in psychology from Columbia University. She is a brilliantly smart leader. A couple of the things that we got into tonight. The common characteristics that con artist all seem to share and why it's so messy. And then why con artists seek out guys who are on a first date, how they are masters at understanding body language to see who is on a first date and how I can con them.

I was hanging on every word that Maria was speaking when talking about this specific story that involved her. And then using what Maria has learned for good. How can we be better at negotiation, persuasion by using some of the tactics that Maria actually learned from con artists? Really interesting conversation. Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, it's Maria Konnikova. Okay, Maria, so excited to have you here on the Learning Leaders Show. I got a quick question to get us rolling in. So basically, for the last few years, or maybe even longer than that, you spent a great amount of time studying con artists and people who are experts at conning us into doing things that we don't even realize are happening or things that we want to have happened.

I'm curious, what are some of the common characteristics the best con artists all seem to share? That's such an excellent question, Ryan. and it's one that I was asking myself for the last three years because I was hoping to have a really neat answer and to be able to tell you, con artists are psychopaths or something like that that would make it very simple to categorize them and to say, you know, this is a psychopath and he's a con artist or this isn't a psychopath, he's not a con artist and so on. What I found was that it was actually much messier. And while some con artists are indeed psychopaths, it's far from all of them. and there are plenty of con artists who are just normal people like you and me, and there are plenty of psychopaths who aren't con artists. There are a few characteristics that I found that many of them share. So one of the things I explored was the so-called dark triad of traits, and that includes psychopathy, also narcissism, which is this overinflated ego and sense of self.

And it comes with a side of entitlement. So, you know, I am not really stealing anything from you. I'm taking it because I deserve it more than you do. So you kind of rationalize why you're able to do all of these things. And Machiavellianism is the third part of the triad. And that is based on Machiavelli's The Prince. And it involves basically the ability to persuade people. The people who are high on Machiavellianism are expert manipulators.

They can get you to do what they want you to do for their own. ends and that is a skill that a lot of psychopaths really need to possess because otherwise how are you going to pull off your con how are you going to make people realize that this is something that they want to do rather than hey aren't you a con artist what are you trying to get me to do what an interesting thing to study what inspired you to want to write a book specifically about this about con artists and cons? Well, most directly, actually, David Mamet. I was watching a movie by David Mamet, his first, actually, as a director, called The House of Games.

I don't know if you've seen it. But it's about a long con. And it involves a woman who I really identified with because she was, actually, her background was not too dissimilar for mine. She had a PhD in psychology. She was a clinical psychologist, so she actually saw patients. while I did experimental psychology. So there's that. But, you know, she did that, and she was a writer, and she just written a successful book, and she fancied herself a pretty good judge of human character, as well as she should. I mean, that's what she did for a living. And she finds herself embroiled in this

very intricate long con, and she thinks she's in on it. She thinks she knows exactly what's going on. She thinks that she's kind of a part of it. She knows that she's dealing with con artists, and obviously she doesn't and at the end of the movie she ends up just completely devastated her life is in ruins emotionally financially

just they take everything from her and at the end of this film I thought hi you know that is not your typical victim or at least not how your typical victim is usually portrayed in the popular media you know I thought victims were

gullible or you know slightly less intelligent or just people who are kind of easy to fool, not like her. And so I started thinking about that and thinking how many people like that are victims and how is that possible? And I realized that no one had ever really explored that. So that's what inspired me to spend the next three years working on this book. What was the process like?

How was your research done in order? By the way, the book is called The Confidence Game, Why We Fall for It Every Time. You're also author of another bestselling book called Mastermind, which, For this conversation, we'll primarily talk about the confidence game, but your other book is phenomenal as well. Thank you. But what was your process to do this? Because this is a topic that I think, just to speak frank, when I was preparing for our time together, I came away a little surprise. I was like, wow, this is a really interesting topic that I'm kind of surprised she went there, but you went all in on it.

So I'd love to know how you went about doing this. Well, I started off by just doing a lot of firsthand interviews because I didn't really know where to get started in terms of the psychological research. And I wanted to get a sense of who these people are, who the victims are, what these cons actually look like. And it's very different when you're seeing them, when you are with the people who are doing it rather than reading about them. It's a totally different thing.

So I spent a good amount of time just gathering hundreds of hours of interviews, both with con artists and their victims. And then I tried to see, you know, well, are there any themes? Are there certain things that seem to unite them? What kind of tactics are they using? How is this working on all of the, you know, on all of the different fronts? And then I went to the psychological research and started to see, well, how can we explain this? What do we have? What are we dealing with here?

And then I started talking to psychologists, and it was kind of an iterative process. I never stopped talking to victims. I did stop talking to con artists at some point because I realized that a lot of them were conning me. That is the part. I was going to stop you there for a second because how do you advertise, do you put something in the paper to say, hey, all con artists, please come here. I need to talk to you? I mean, how do you get those conversations? You know, that's a really, it's a very funny question.

I did do something that was very similar to putting an ad in a paper. Really? First, I sent out, well, not quite, but I sent out a huge email blast to basically not everyone I'd ever met, but close enough, saying, hey, I'm starting to work on this book on con artists. Do you have any stories? Do you know anyone? Do you know anything? And then I did the same thing on Twitter. I did the same thing on my public Facebook page and in a few different forums.

And it was like a snowball effect once, because those are tight communities. communities. Once people realized what I was doing, a lot of them were super eager to talk because as we just spoke about, they're narcissistic. They are very proud of what they do. They want to tell their stories. By the way, a lot of them only would speak to me under condition of anonymity because they're still operating. And they don't want me to do anything nasty. But the thing is, I'm probably a little too scared to do anything nasty anyway. So we're all good on that front. And some of them have already been caught. So there are those whose stories I knew because they'd already been in the courts. They'd been convicted. Something had already happened.

And those I actually approached directly if I was interested in their story. So some of the big names we think of are like a Bernie Madoff and you mentioned Lance Armstrong in your book. But I view them as being two completely separate types of con artists. I don't know your beliefs there. Because Lance basically lied and he felt, I think, entitled to do it because everyone else, he felt at least that he was competing against, were lying about the doping and everything they're doing versus Bernie Madoff who essentially was stealing. But I love to get your thoughts on that. I actually don't think that anything, that they're different at all because both of them

justify what they do by saying, oh, well, everyone does it. That is just patently false. Not everyone does it. And not everyone tries to get an inside edge in an illegal way, whether it's in cycling or in investing. So when Lance Armstrong says that, he's conning us, you know, and we want to believe him. Continually conning us. I just listen to him on a long-form interview on Joe Rogan's podcast, and he actually comes away being much more likable. Of course he does.

So it's like, are we getting conned again or what's going on? and I read your book and it makes me, you know, Adam Grant wrote about this on the back of your book where it makes you question everything and that, and I feel the exact same way about pretty much everything now. And I'm like, I don't want to be too skeptical, but am I getting con or what's going on? It really is, it can confuse you. So I have to warn people this book is really compelling. It's a great read, but it will make you think so much about am I getting conned by almost. And I'm not a skeptical guy by nature.

I like to think everybody's telling me the truth. I lead with honesty thinking, okay, they're going to be telling the truth, and occasionally that can get you burn. And so that's why it's such an interesting topic. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I went through exactly what you're going through when I just distrusted everyone and said, you know what? People suck.

Humanity sucks. Everyone is out to get you. We just live in a terrible world, and I'm just going to lock myself in my room right now and not talk to anyone because you're going to call me. And I got over that. And the way that I got over that was to realize that, you know, this is a, it's very selective material. I spent three years among these people, but that's, you know, that is a very, very small subset of humanity. most people are not out to get you. Most people aren't Lance Armstrong.

You know, most athletes don't dope. Most great athletes don't dope. So you can have a lot of heroes, and you can believe what a lot of people say without thinking necessarily that, hey, this person is out to get me. That said, there are obviously certain red flags, and you can, what I would say is operate under,

the dictum of what a good journalist should do, which is trust but verify. So don't be skeptical right away. Trust it, but get some supporting evidence if there's any doubt or if there's any reason to in the sense that I don't mean, you know, if you're at a party, you don't have to do a background check on every single new person you meet. But if it's something that's important to you. You mentioned red flags. What are some of the red flags all of us regular people can look for? Well, here's the problem. I can talk about red flags, but if you are personally in the middle of a con, you're not going to see them. Your friend who's not being con will see them because he's not in the middle of it and he is thinking rationally.

But what the con artist does is ratchet up your emotions to the point where you don't really realize what's going on. And so the red flags aren't there for you. Now, one of the huge red flags that people miss completely when they're in the situation is that old dictum of if it seems too good to be true, it probably is. So what ends up happening is we totally understand that theoretically. But when it's happening to us, we don't think it's too good to be true. We think we're finally getting what we deserve. Can you give me an example of that? Sure.

So, for instance, if your friend meets someone new online and this girl just totally sweeps him off his feet and he is totally in love, they spend hours on Skype on the phone, you know, exchanging messages, texting, he's never met her because she lives in a different country. But she's just absolutely perfect. And he's been in really crappy relationships for a really long time. So this is just a long time coming. And, you know, she's going to come to visit him. He's going to send her some money for plane tickets, et cetera, et cetera. You might look at this and say, um, dude, have you ever met her? You know, what's going on?

Have you, is this a real person? He is going to tell you to get lost. He is going to say, are you kidding me? Like, you just don't want me to be happy. And he's not going to listen to you. So I think that that's an example that we can all relate to because I'm sure that you've been in a situation where someone has been in a relationship where you've seen red flags. They don't see them because they're emotionally invested. Yeah, another interesting story you've told before, but I was fascinated by it.

And I could pose this question in the form of a little bit differently, but you can answer with a personal story, I believe. and that is why do con artists seek out and search for guys specifically who are on first date? Well, they search for people who are either in an emotionally vulnerable position or in a position where, you know, they know what they need to prove. So guys on first dates are beautiful targets because if you can realize that the person is on a first date, you can infer a lot. you can infer a lot from that. You know, you probably want to make a good impression. You probably want to be seen as a good guy. You want to get a second date, basically.

So you're going to do everything you can to be that best possible version of yourself. You know how people often change after, you know, date two or three because they just can't keep up the front anymore. But the first few dates, they're really pulling out all the stops. So I had an experience when I had just moved to New York, where I went on a first date with a lovely young man. and we were walking in Washington Square, and another man approached us, and he was wearing a business suit. He was wearing, he looked very nice and presentable, and he said, I'm so sorry to bother you guys.

I lost my wallet. I live in New Jersey. I need to get back to my family, my kids. I'm late for dinner. This is really terrible. Can you please help me out? And I'm going to return all the money to you. Just give me your address.

I will send you a check first thing in the morning. I just really, really need to. get home and I'm in a terrible bind here. And I was right away a little bit skeptical just because you know, that it just didn't seem completely accurate. And my date, though, he, of course, you know, puffs up his chest, he's going to be the big man, takes out his wallet and gives him 10 bucks. And I actually kind of look at him in this way that says, why are you doing this? And he says, oh, you know, don't bother paying me back. Well, he obviously didn't need to say that because he was never going to see his money.

He was probably actually kind of smart of him because you don't want people like that to have your home address. So he gave him money and this guy walked away. So he was totally, you know, he had read him completely correctly. He knew that he would want to impress me, that he would want to seem like the type of guy who, of course, helps others out, who's generous, who's kind, et cetera. et cetera, et cetera. And then I actually felt pretty crappy about myself, which is the other thing that con artists rely on, that when you don't help them, when you say you're a con artist, you're going to feel incredibly guilty. So that's exactly what happened. I was like,

what kind of a person am I? Maybe this guy did lose his wallet. Wouldn't I want someone to help me out if I lost my wallet? I wouldn't want people to think that I'm a con artist. So I ended up coming back to Washington Square around the same time for the next few days. I lived just a few blocks away at the time. And I, lo and behold, there was that guy telling the same sob story to other passerby. So then I felt very justified. Did you go on a second date with a guy? No. Was that part of it or just completely different aspects that led you to not do that again? You know, who knows? It was a combination of circumstances, but I'm sure that didn't help. another part of the book is you mentioned that there are people who have fallen for the same con more than once

how could this you'd think if you if you had it happen before you would learn from it and avoid it a second time how is this possible well because most of these people will never and by the way i say these people I'm probably one of these people. So most of us will rationalize it away and will explain to ourselves that actually we weren't conned. It was just a question of bad luck. So most people don't even want to admit it because it is so incredibly damaging to your ego to think that you might be the type of person who falls for a confidence scheme. And so instead you say, oh, you know, that guy wasn't stealing my money. It was just, you know, we got unlucky.

a bad investment. It was a bad gamble. Oh, you know, she, she was totally real. She wasn't a sweetheart scam. She really did have an emergency and had to move to Cambodia at the last minute. So that was the end of our relationship. So people will actually give the excuses that the con artists offer. They'll give them to themselves and say, you know, all good. I was not conned. And our cognitive dissonance is so strong that we really will dismiss. evidence to the contrary, and we'll say anything that we possibly can to keep the image of ourselves as smart people, as people who are savvy, who are good judges of character, who are sophisticated, who wouldn't fall for a scam. I think that's a huge part of it. And so what ends up

happening is we con ourselves so well that we become very good targets next time, because we'll do the exact same thing. We don't learn from our mistakes. And we're on the same page as a con artist. we've bought his lies willingly. An interesting personal story, at least of my family, on my wife's side, and you've talked about this before as well, but it's called the Grandparent Scam. And my wife's brothers both are in the military, and so sometimes they're all over the world depending on when. And one of them, or at least the Khan did this, they called a grandparent who's obviously

a little older. and they said, hey, I need money for, I'm hurt or a surgery or something. I forget exactly, it's an exquisite, but basically I'm hurt. I need money. You need to wire it. Send it right here, and it worked. My wife and their grandparents side sent money, and then they were calling and saying, what's wrong?

Is Clayton okay? Is everything okay with him? And her mom was like, what are you talking about? What's going on? And he called me. He needed money. And then everyone else in the family is all worried saying, what's wrong with Clayton? Is everything okay?

And we call him and he's like, what are you talking about? I never called him. I didn't do any of that. This is, I have no idea what that is. And we obviously later found out that he was completely conned and the person actually tried to do it again a second time before. It's unbelievable. And so I've heard you talking about this, but I almost want to say this as a heads

up for any grandparent that potentially is listening or people to tell grandparents that this is a real thing. Absolutely. Well, and it's good that you actually say that, that you give the heads up because one of the few bright spots in this research is that if you tell people about specific scams, and actually there was a study that the ARP did specifically with the elderly and with the grandparent scam, if you tell them how it works and you explain the scam in detail to them, they become much less susceptible to it. Now, unfortunately, it doesn't transfer to other

types of scams, so they'd still be vulnerable to every single other type of fraud out there, but they wouldn't fall for the grandparent scam. And because the grandparent scam is such a prevalent one among the elderly, it's actually quite important, and it's really good news that those types of conversations actually work to help prevent it. But it's very funny that it really, you know, it works so incredibly well because it's in miniature in a few minutes in a conversation exactly what a long con does over weeks, months, sometimes even years, which is really get that high emotional involvement with a really compelling story right away so that you stop thinking rationally and you stop asking questions.

Because of course, if your dear grandson is in the hospital, you're going to wire money. You're not going to say, can I have some proof please if it's a life-threatening situation. So I want to turn the tables a little bit here because you've done all this research. You're brilliantly smart, well-educated. you are yourself and really impressive background. But I'm curious, how can people, the good people listening is, the non-cons listening to this episode, what are some of the things that you've learned from these cons that actually could be used for good? What are some things maybe if you could say, okay, from a persuasion perspective,

maybe I'm thinking in any type of profession or just in your daily life, what are some things people could use out of or tease out from your, studying or research that we could all use. Absolutely. And I think that there are, you know, it is important to note that a lot of the techniques that con artists use can be used in very legitimate ways to get people to either feel good about themselves or to do good things instead of giving money to a con artist, give money to charity.

And some of those things are, you know, the importance of building emotional rapport and being interested in other people, not just being interested in your, herself. Con artists are not great talkers. I mean, a lot of them are, but they don't have to be. They're great listeners. So there are people who will remember your name. They'll remember your kids' names and their birthdays and their likes and all of these different things about you. They'll know, they'll know what motivates you. So they'll, you know, you really like them because they're interested in you and they fake a very genuine interest and they actually remember all of these details. And that's actually, you know, that is not a bad piece of advice for building

lasting relationships when you're not actually out to con someone, but you just want to form a meaningful friendship and you want to really learn about people. I think opening up your ears and listening and becoming a better listener can only help. And sure, it can make you better at manipulating them, but it also just makes you a more empathetic human being. because con artists, you know, they fake empathy, but you don't need to fake it. This is a path toward, I think, forging more meaningful relationships. And when it comes to things like persuasion, there are tons of tactics that people can use to try to get someone to do something like donate to charity.

One of them that I can talk about is something called the foot in the door technique, which basically says, you know, let's start with a small request. So let me send you an email and say, hey, do you mind chatting for five minutes? I just wanted to get your thoughts on X, Y, or Z. And you say, sure, yeah, of course, happy to chat. So we talk for five minutes. Great, we're done. Now, when you are looking for a charitable donation or when you're looking for something else,

I am much more likely to say yes than if you had approached me with that originally because I've already done a small favor for you. And we really like to have a consistent feeling about ourselves. And so if I have done a favor for you in the past, that means you're a good person. That means you're worth my time. That means you're worth my favors. And so I'm going to keep repeating that behavior rather than go against it. And it seems manipulative.

And to be perfectly honest, it is a little bit manipulative. But so is basically almost anything where you're trying to get someone to do something for you. You open your book with this question, but I'm going to end with it. Have you ever been con? I don't know. And that's the honest answer. I would like to think I haven't because I know I haven't ever fallen for huge scams. And I'd like to think that everyone to whom I've ever gotten than, you know, one, two, five, ten dollars deserved it and really was using it for the exact purpose that they told me they were going to be using it for.

it's nicer to think that than to think, you know, they probably conned me and they probably didn't need the money for that. They probably hadn't lost their wallet. So those types of things, sure, I probably have fallen for that at some point. But it makes me feel better about myself to think that those were really nice people and I really was helping them out. Absolutely. Maria, this stuff, so it just fascinates me.

I mean, and the book's great. I would urge people to get it again. It's the confidence game. I'm sure it's all over Amazon. It just came out. it's a just like I said a really interesting re that I think people could get a lot out of that'll make you question a lot of things too which is good that that's what we should be doing so Maria where can everyone go to find you online um you can find me on my website which is

maria khanakova dot combe and i'm also on twitter at m connkova and conocova spelled k o n-i-o-v-a and i'm also on facebook so you can search for maria kondikova and there I will be Perfect. Well, thank you again for being here. I love talking about this. And I certainly want to continue our dialogue as we both progress because I'm really interested in the work that you do. And I can't wait to see what's next. Thank you so much, Ryan. I would really love that. Great. Thanks for you. Take care. Bye.

This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to learningleadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again and we'll see you next time on The Learning Leader Show.