The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 107: Simon Sinek – Leadership: It Starts With Why

Episode Date: March 16, 2016

Episode 107: Simon Sinek – Leadership: It Starts With Why Simon Sinek is a bucket list type of a guest.  He is a literally hero of mine.  His TED Talk, “How Great Leaders Inspire Action” is one of my all-time favorites.  It’s also happens to be one of the most popular TED talks of all time.  I loved learning more about Simon the person… As well as some of his newer views on leadership...  I loved how emotional Simon got at certain points in this conversation… Especially when we discussed how it takes courage for great leaders to step up and make tough decisions.  We had a fascinating conversation on this episode of The Learning Leader Show. Simon Sinek is an unshakable optimist. He believes in a bright future and our ability to build it together. Described as “a visionary thinker with a rare intellect,” Sinek teaches leaders and organizations how to inspire people. With a bold goal to help build a world in which the vast majority of people go home every day feeling fulfilled by their work, Sinek is leading a movement to inspire people to do the things that inspire them. A trained ethnographer, he is the author of two books: the global best seller, Start With Why: How Great Leaders Inspire Everyone to Take Action and his newest book, the New York Times and Wall Street Journal best seller, Leaders Eat Last: Why Some Teams Pull Together and Others Don’t. Fascinated by the leaders and companies that make the greatest impact in their organizations and in the world, those with the capacity to inspire, he has discovered some remarkable patterns about how they think, act and communicate and the environments in which people operate at their natural best. He has devoted his life to sharing his thinking in order to help other leaders and organizations inspire action. He is best known for popularizing the concept of Why and for the talk he gave on the subject that became the second most watched talk of all time on TED.com. Episode 107: Simon Sinek – Leadership: It Starts With Why Subscribe on iTunes  or Stitcher Radio The Learning Leader Show “If You Care To See Others Succeed, That’s Why You Lead” In This Episode, You Will Learn: Having courage to stick to your values leads to sustained excellence Lt. General George Flynn, USMC is a great example to follow Leadership is a choice – Everyone has the capacity to lead If you have a desire to see others succeed, that’s why you lead Why mass layoffs never used to happen and why they do now The great leaders don’t believe in headcounts… They believe in heart counts Unfortunately… Bad leaders don’t have the courage to sacrifice Why Gary Ridge (CEO of WD-40) is a great leader – He puts his people first Learn Simon’s process for learning new things How to be a great public speaker? Only talk about things that you care about and understand Being a learning leader means approaching every day with the curiosity of a little kid  “Leadership is a choice – Everyone has the capacity to lead” Continue Learning: Watch Simon’s Legendary TED Talk: How Great Leaders Inspire Action Follow Simon on Twitter: @simonsinek Read: Start With Why - How Great Leaders Inspire Everyone To Take Action Read: Leaders Eat Last - Why Some Teams Pull Together and Others Don't To Follow Me on Twitter: @RyanHawk12 You may also like these episodes: Episode 001: How To Become A Master Connector W/ Jayson Gaignard From MasterMind Talks Episode 078: Kat Cole – From Hooters Waitress To President of Cinnabon Episode 082: Dan Pink – The Science of Motivation, Legendary Writer & Ted Talk Episode 086: Seth Godin – How To Become Indispensable & Build Your Tribe Did you enjoy the podcast? If you enjoyed hearing Simon Sinek on the show, please don’t hesitate to send me a note on Twitter or email me. Episode edited by the great J Scott Donnell   Bio From StartWithWhy.com Simon Sinek is an unshakable optimist. He believes in a bright future and our ability to build it together. Described as “a visionary thinker with a rare intellect,” Sinek teaches leaders and organizations how to inspire people. With a bold goal to help build a world in which the vast majority of people go home every day feeling fulfilled by their work, Sinek is leading a movement to inspire people to do the things that inspire them. A trained ethnographer, he is the author of two books: the global best seller, Start With Why: How Great Leaders Inspire Everyone to Take Action and his newest book, the New York Times and Wall Street Journal best seller, Leaders Eat Last: Why Some Teams Pull Together and Others Don’t. Fascinated by the leaders and companies that make the greatest impact in their organizations and in the world, those with the capacity to inspire, he has discovered some remarkable patterns about how they think, act and communicate and the environments in which people operate at their natural best. He has devoted his life to sharing his thinking in order to help other leaders and organizations inspire action. He is best known for popularizing the concept of Why and for the talk he gave on the subject that became the second most watched talk of all time on TED.com.

The joy of seeing someone else accomplish something that they didn't even realize they were capable of is the joy of leadership. And so if you have the desire to see others around you succeed, that is the reason to become a leader. If you enjoy taking care of those around you, if you understand that your own personal success is conditional on the love and support of those around you. And the only way those around you will love and support you and your vision is if you take it, care of them first. We call you leader, not because you're at the top of the organization. We call you leader because you had the courage to go first, first into the unknown and first towards the danger, first to put your interest second, to put the lies of those around

you first ahead. So it's not for everyone. It is a journey. It starts up slowly. No one's a great leader immediately. And the best leaders I've met don't consider themselves experts in leadership. The best leaders I've met consider themselves students of leadership. Are leaders born or are they made?

Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. Hey, guys, remember episode number 97 with Alejandro Chene? He is the CEO of Ma and Bao. both promise to continue our dialogue as we both progressed on our journeys. And we certainly have, just as I have, with the great people at Mizan and Maine. And Alejandro and his company have decided to sponsor the Learning Leader Show. This episode is brought to you by Motten

Bow. I told the story on that episode of why I absolutely love their ridiculously comfortable handcrafted premium jeans. Also, no ugly back pocket embroidery or weird stitching. Just simple elegant, great-looking jeans. And Mottenbao has a free try-on program. You get two sizes to try at home with every purchase. Keep the one that fits and send the other one back for free. These jeans are already priced under market because they cut out all the retail markups. But the deal is even better when you go to Motenbow.com and use promo code Ryan Hawk for 20% off.

That's M-O-T-T-A-N-D-B-O-W.com promo code Ryan Hawk. Hey, and welcome to the Learning Leaders Show. I am Ryan Hawk. I'm absolutely blown away by tonight's feature leader. I just had a conversation with the legendary Simon Sinek, a man who needs no introduction. He's the best-selling author of two books, Start with Why, and Leaders Eat Last.

His TED Talk titled How Great Leaders Inspire Action has received, over 25.8 million views making it one of the most popular TED Talks of all time. This was a bucket list conversation for me. A few of the things we got into, I asked him the simple question, why should we lead? It's probably easier not to. And his answer made me feel empowered and inspired to continue on this journey. And I loved it. It'll blow you away. And then we discussed the specific CEO that he knows and he's worked with who prefers the term heart count over head count. We go much deeper there.

And then the importance of leaders having courage to step up when times are tough and the stories that follow there were incredible. Ladies and gentlemen, I couldn't be more excited for Simon Sinek. Simon, so excited to have you here on a learning leader show. I got a quick question to get us rolling and that's around leaders who have sustained excellence. And you've studied these types of people. You are one yourself.

And I'm curious, when you look at the. people who have sustained excellence over an extended period of time, what are some of the common characteristics they all seem to share? You know, I get, I get asked this question, you know, sort of what are the characteristics of leaders? And, you know, much has been written about these things. You know, they have vision, they have charisma and all these things. And I'm not so sure that's true. I know some spectacular leaders who are not that charismatic, you know, like they're sort of quiet and sort of to themselves. And I know some spectacular leaders who don't have big sort of Steve Jobsian-type visions of changing the world.

They're definitely focused, but huge vision is just not there. One thing I am comfortable saying that all these great leaders that I've met have in common is courage. It takes tremendous courage to stick to your values when sometimes market pressures or pressures from our superiors want us to take an expedient route. It takes tremendous courage to stand up to work. Wall Street if that's the position that someone's in. It takes tremendous courage to stick to your vision and be sort of stubborn about directing your life and your career towards

that vision. Sometimes a short-term personal sacrifice. So courage is it for me. I love it. Who are the first people that come to mind when you think of sustained excellence? There's a few that come to mind. One is a friend and mentor of mine by the name of Lieutenant General George Flynn. He's a retired three-star general from the United States Marine Corps. And I met him when he was in uniform. And we met because I was doing research on the Marines. He wrote the four word of your book, right? Lear Zhe Lacks? Yeah. He did. He wrote the four to to Leaders-Eat last. And I met him originally because I was doing research on the Marine Corps. And he was in charge of old Marine Corps training. So I wanted to talk to him. And I also wanted,

I needed his permission to go visit the Marines. And he and I got along so well. And this guy has lived his career by a code of ethics and values, and he'll say what makes the Marine Corps great is that it's a value-based organization. In fact, he'll say that any great organization is a values-based organization. But he's been grateful for every promotion he's ever been given. He sees himself in service to a higher cause, and that's to the people around him. And he's just an amazing, amazing human being and has sustained excellence. I mean, he's a remarkable, what he's achieved in his lifetime is amazing. So he ranks high for me. I think Elon Musk is fascinating as well.

You know, there's plenty of CEOs and quote-unquote visionary leaders who've done something once, especially if you look in this tech world, you know, some of these CEOs, you wonder if they're truly visionary or if they're just won the lottery, because they're unable to repeat their success at all. You know, every business that they do after their big multi-billion dollar unicorn doesn't really work, you know. But Elon Musk is not that person. multiple successes and again

stubbornly courageous to stick to his vision and the vision is much bigger than space and much bigger than electric cars it's something more human than that

so admire him I think he's a modern day modern day innovator modern day visionary I think sometimes we give too much credit to the CEOs who win the lottery

just because they have a company that gets popular very quickly and they become a billionaire doesn't mean they're they're great leaders and amazing things some of them get on the speaking circuit

and go around telling people their quote unquote secrets that's like going around and telling people the numbers you pick for your winning lottery card and people think if they play the same lottery numbers they'll win so yeah sustained excellence I think is such a great question

because it's such a great standard if you truly are following something bigger than yourself if you truly do sort of have leadership capacity or if you like I said won the lottery Well, you know, Simon, I've been a big fan of years for quite some time. I think most people listening, obviously, you've probably seen your great TED Talk and have read your book, start with why.

And specifically, Leaders Eat Last is a book that I love because I've been in the leadership space for quite some time. And the subtitle is why some teams pull together and others don't. If you had to distill that down, if somebody came to you up on the street and said, Simon, why do some teams pull together but others don't? How do you respond to that? It's all about environment. We make a big mistake in business and in leadership in general where we think it's the people. You know, hire the right people and get the right people on the bus, we say. And it's really not the people, it's the bus.

We're social animals and we respond to the environments we're in. You take a good person and put them in a bad environment. They do bad things. You take a person that maybe the group has given up on and you put them in a good environment and they're able to turn their lives around and become remarkable, valuable members of the group. We respond to the environment we're in, and if you get the environment right, trust and cooperation prevail. If you get the environment wrong, cynicism, paranoia, mistrust, and self-interest prevail. So if you look at the culture of the company that, you know, the companies you've worked for, the organizations you've worked for, if trust and cooperation run high, that's a condition of good leadership.

If trust and cooperation run low, that's a condition of bad leadership. It's environmental. It's not the people. The people are fine. Interesting. I don't know why, but I first immediately thought of, and I don't know how if you follow football here, but like Bill Belichick for the New England Patriots takes on guys that sometimes have had questionable character because he's built this culture around his team that he can take troubled players, plug them into his culture, his system, his environment, and for some reason they don't get in trouble anymore. This is not full proof, but for the most part, and they come in and they can contribute, at least in some cases, for limited portions of time and where if they were in other environments or on other teams, they would just flounder and flail and break the law and do bad things. That's the first thing I thought of when you mentioned the environment.

That's exactly right. And here's something remarkable that I learned. So my friend Charlie Kim, who runs a company called Next Jump, they do something really sophisticated in their hiring process, which is they track the lifetime performance of their employees back to the person who hired them. And so they can tell which recruiters hire the best. employees, right? And what they learned was the best recruiters who hire the best employees sometimes get it

wrong. But the recruiters who hire the bad employees never get it right. So a good coach may sometimes get the wrong player, but a bad coach will always get the wrong players. Yeah, interesting. A good judge of character versus a bad judge of character. It's not their coaching ability. their ability to judge character.

Yeah, it's a great point. So in thinking more of leaders eat last than talking about leadership, this is what, this is what I'm all about. And I have maybe a too broad of a question, but I want to ask you because I was asked this recently, and it's actually a little bit harder to answer than I originally thought. And that question simply is, why lead? Why should people want to lead? It's probably easier not to, but why should someone want to take on a leadership role and lead others? Well, leadership is a choice, absolutely, and it is a very hard choice to make, and it is not for everyone.

Everyone has the capacity for leadership, but that doesn't mean everybody wants to lead. Like everybody can have children. That doesn't mean everybody wants to be a parent, you know? It's the same thing. Leadership comes at great personal sacrifice of time and energy. We have to put our own personal interests aside and put the interests and more importantly, the lives of our people, the people in our care. ahead of our own interests. Leadership is not about being in charge.

It's about taking care of those in our charge. It is just like being a parent. And that's really, really hard work. Just like being a parent. You lose sleep. You don't get to buy the car you want. You get to take different kinds of vacations. Your house is a mess.

Your car is a mess. Is it all worth it? Your kids drive your nuts sometimes. Is it all worth it? You eat macaroni and cheese over the sink. Is it worth it? And the answer is, of course, it's worth it because if you talk to any parent,

it's those glimmers when the kid says something funny when you catch your five-year-old sharing with your four-year-old when you when you check to make sure your kid's sleeping and your eight-year-old is underneath the blankets with a flashlight reading you know when they get there when they graduate school when they get their first job when they get their first boyfriend or girlfriend all of a sudden all that sacrifice and risk seems is immediately worth it the joy of seeing someone else accomplish something that they didn't even realize they were

capable of is the joy of leadership. And so if you have the desire to see others around you succeed, that is the reason to become a leader. If you enjoy taking care of those around you, if you understand that your own personal success is conditional on the love and support of those around you. And the only way those around you will love and support you and your vision is if you take care of them first. We call you leader, not because you're at the top of the.

the organization. We call you leader because you had the courage to go first, first into the unknown and first towards the danger, first to put your interest second, to put the lies of those around you first ahead. So it's not for everyone. It is a journey. It starts up slowly. No one's a great leader immediately. And the best leaders I've met don't consider themselves experts in leadership. The best leaders I've met consider themselves students of leadership. In other words, They're always striving to be better versions. It's like, you know, great parents don't think their job is done when the kid is 18. Great parents are always looking for new ways to advance their parenting styles and help their kids as their kids go into, you know, grow up and become more senior, if you will, inside the organization, right?

It's exactly the same condition. It's exactly the same reason to become a leader. I love that answer, man. That is so good when it comes to people because I think it's something, especially in, you know, I was really. read in and watching some of your work, especially when we're talking about mass layoffs, because those, unfortunately, have become normal in America, I don't know, maybe in the third or fourth quarter at most big companies. It's mass layoff time because we've got to make profit.

I don't know. It's not always profit. It's not always profit. There are many companies that use layoffs even when profitable. That's the embarrassing thing. It's to make the arbitrary projections, especially for the public companies. But yes, go on. Right.

And you've talked about Bob Chapman. I love you to tell that story about how he handled it when he was told we have some problems and we're probably going to have to do some mass layoffs and what he said and the way that he handled that situation. Sure. So let's be clear. Mass layoffs in the United States used as a means to balancing the books did not exist in the United States prior to the 1980s.

did not exist. It was a new idea that was pioneered by folks like Jack Welch and popularized and perfected in the 80s and 90s, and it's become so popular that we don't even perceive it as unhealthy. That's like being a functional alcoholic. Sure, you can get through the day that doesn't mean you're healthy, right? It's become so normalized. We don't realize the destructive power. And, you know, using mass layoffs to balance the books is putting a number ahead of a human being. And then companies are surprised that they've destroyed the culture and destroyed the trust around them. Forget about the people who lost their jobs. Think about the people who kept their jobs because they've ostensibly been told that an arbitrary projection is more important than their livelihood.

So no one gives you their everything. Everybody hunkers down for fear of what comes next. It's no longer a meritocracy, right? It's arbitrary. And we see it so rampant in our world today. A few years ago, Citibank had announced, record high layoffs, the same year they had record high average bonuses. Figure that one out, right?

So Bob Chapman in 2008, his company, Barry Waymiller, they suffered like a lot of other companies. And like so many CEOs who I talk to, they say, Simon, I had to do layoffs. I had no choice. Really? Really? No choice? None? And so Bob Chapman's company proves that there is a choice.

his company, it's a large manufacturing company, good old-fashioned American manufacturing. It's a couple billion in revenues with about 6,000 employees. It's not a 14-person company. They lost 30% of their pipeline because of the 2008 recession. And they could no longer afford their labor pool. They needed to save $10 million. So the board got together and said, we need to have layoffs. And Bob absolutely refused.

Because at Barry Waymiller, they don't believe in head counts. They believe in heart counts. and it's very hard to reduce a heart count. So instead what they did is they implemented a furlough program. The choice that Bob made instead of layoffs was a furlough program where every employee, from secretary to CEO, had to take four weeks of unpaid vacation. They could take it whenever they wanted, and they did not have to take it consecutively. And it was how Bob announced the program that was so powerful.

He said that it's better we should all suffer a little than any of us should. have to suffer a lot. And morale went up. And strange things started to happen because when leadership takes the risk to put its interests aside to take care of the people, the natural human response to those kinds of conditions is that the people take care of each other. So something started to happen that they didn't even predict where people who could afford it more took more time off so that those who could afford it less could take less time off. So somebody would take five weeks so that somebody else only had to. take three weeks. And that was organic. That wasn't part of the program. They finally, when the

economy recovered and the business picked up again, they immediately got rid of the furlough program, backpaid the 401k pay that they had suspended. Good luck trying to hire their people away. Oh, and by the way, their profitability is through the roof. Their innovation is through the roof. Their productivity is through the roof. Their loyalty is through the roof. Why? Because the people trust that leadership cares about them, and so they care about the company and they care about the leadership. And that's the choice. The next time a CEO tells me, I have no choice, all I can do is look them in the eye and say,

you're an idiot. Of course you have a choice. Are you a leader or are you a mouse? Of course you have a choice. You just choose not to look anything beyond the simplest, most expedient choice. You have no difficult choices is what you have. You have easy choices. That's the one you chose.

Why don't more people do this? Courage! No courage! No courage! That's kind of disheartening to hear, though. You know what I'm saying? Like, you've risen the ranks. You become the guy.

You're the leader. You're the authority. The man or woman who's been chosen by somebody or some group or a board and said, you're in charge. Yeah. And so why so many are not able to be like Bob Chapman? There's multiple reasons.

One is they do not have the courage to stand up to the pressure. They do not have the courage to ask for help. They do not have the courage to make difficult decisions that may have short-term liability. Scared of getting fired? They do not have the courage to put their own careers on the line to protect the lives of others. They do not have the courage to reduce what are insane salaries and bonus structures to protect the lives of human beings. I'm okay with people making insane salaries and bonuses. they're willing to sacrifice some of their perks to protect the lives of others.

And they give into pressures, and they don't have the courage to look at all the choices they have and make a choice that might not pay off in a quarter, but might pay off in two years, right? And the incentive structures are organized so that they don't have to make difficult decisions. You know, in public companies especially, many, many CEOs, a large portion of their pay is based on the price of the equity. They're not incentivized to make the company do well. they're incentivized to make the stock price do well.

And if you look at the way Wall Street works, when a CEO announces layoffs, the stock price goes up. Yeah. So the incentive structures don't incentivize good leadership. The incentive structures actually incentivize selfish behavior and bad leadership. It's incredible. And we as the populace, we as the employees, don't demand that it changes.

We have to demand that it changes. We have to demand. This is the secret of leadership. the group always has the power. This is why the power of a democracy. And by the way, even in dictatorships, dictators fear the people and they have fake elections and they bus in, you know, paid people to go to rallies

to give the appearance of popular support because the people always have the power. And if we inside our companies rose up and demanded that our leaders put our lives ahead of their interests, guess what would happen? Things would change. It's incredible. to think of it in this manner because, I mean, I get inspired by hearing stories like Bob and you want to look.

Are there others like him that you have studied recently and maybe you've learned about or you've worked with that have similar tendencies that have done things like him? Absolutely. Gary Ridge, the CEO of WD40. Yes, WD40. It's basically a one product company. Wow. Yep. He's been there for 17 years.

and he is remarkable. What's his name? Gary Widge. Gary Ridge. Right. Out in San Diego, that's where WD40 is based. And this man puts his people first. It's not about the product. It's about his people.

He cares about his people. He gives them a clear vision. And he's had his job for 17 years. In other words, if they had a bad year, they didn't immediately ask the CEO. So not only does he believe in his people, but his people and his board believe in him. And so everybody has patience because I think great leaders have patience.

They understand that it's a journey. I mean, think about life. You can't have a perfect hockey stick life. You're going to have bad times. You're going to have setbacks. You're going to have disappointments. You're going to have things that are out of your control. And yet does that mean that your life is worthless and you live a bad life?

Of course not. We play for the war, not the battle. And this is what Gary Ridge understands. And his company is remarkable and it does accept. exceptionally exceptionally well with one product. I mean, they have many product extensions, but it's basically a one-trick pony. And so when companies keep thinking that they have to produce millions of products to compete,

they're wrong. They're absolutely wrong. Gary Ridge is a spectacular leader that proves it. Is part of your work, Simon, you get hired by either a CEO or a board to come in work with a CEO? Or what is your day-to-day like when you're not in the process of writing? I made a decision many years ago when I discovered this thing called the why. that I believe that it was more important to spread the idea than become a consultant. Okay.

And so I'm a preacher of sorts. You know, for me, it's important to speak, it's important to write, it's important to teach. I love doing interviews like this because it spreads the word and it offers a new, a new vision, a new normal of what our work lives could be like. And when those ideas resonate, to offer people the tools to make the change or demand the change themselves, That's the role that I've chosen for myself. I do some advisory work on a really selective basis when I believe that that organization can either serve as an example

or have a dramatic impact in the world that will help advance my vision. And my vision is to live in a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning, inspire to go to work, feel safe when they're there, and return home fulfilled at the end of the day. And all of my work is directed to that end goal. a pretty grand vision. Where did you come up with that? And when was there a specific moment in your life where you said, this is what I want to do? Yeah. I mean, it happened when I lost my own

passion. I went through a phase where I was, I was not excited to go to work. And I own my own business and I had amazing clients and we did good work. And yet I don't know, I didn't want to wake up and do it again in the morning. And so all of my energy went into pretending that I was happier, more successful and more in control than I felt. And it's a horrible way to live. And it wasn't until a friend came to me concerned about me. Did that give me the courage to go and sort of find a solution? And the solution that I found was this thing called the why.

You know, we all know what we do. Some of us know how we do it, but we don't know why we do it. And I realized the biological imperative of understanding all three of those things. And I didn't know my why. And it was only the discovery of my why that did my passion restore to levels that I'd never experienced before. And what I learned is that when you do not feel passion, you can feel passion. You can regain it.

It's not about we only hire passionate people. That's such nonsense. We're all passionate people. We're just not all passionate for the same things. But it's in the right environment, and passion is what prevails. It's such nonsense to say, only hire passionate people, right? Yeah. How do you know that they're passionate for interviewing and not so passionate for working?

So my passion was restored and I shared the idea with friends and their passion grew and grew and grew and grew. And what I learned is that fulfillment, love of our work, is a right and not a privilege. It's not some lottery that we get to sit around with our friends and one of our friends says, I love my job and the rest of us go,

oh my God, you're so lucky. Like we all get to say, I love my job. And it is our leader's responsibility to create the environment in which we will love our jobs. And here's the joke. When we love our jobs, we work harder, we offer more loyalty,

we sacrifice more, We give more happily. It makes us proud. And the company does better. The joke is what I'm talking about is actually a better business model. That's the joke. But it's a better business model over the long term. Sometimes we make short-term sacrifices, investments in our people, investments in training, investments in coaching.

That doesn't necessarily pay dividends in the quarter. Just like the tutor you get for your kid in math doesn't necessarily pay dividends, you know, in a semester. But over the course of their career, in the course of their college lives, the education that they'll get, it sets them ahead. You know, leadership is an investment like education is an investment, like our children are an investment, like our future is an investment. And the problem with these kinds of investments is I don't know when you reap the benefits. It could be a year. It could be six months. It could be two years.

It could be three years. If it's longer than that, I'd be worried that you're doing something wrong. You know? Yeah. I'm curious. What is your process for? learning new things? I like talking to people.

For me, discussion is more powerful than reading. Reading may spark an idea, but then I'll want to talk about it. And so I have a collection of friends that I call on a fairly regular basis to just talk. And talk about ideas. And I think out loud. So the more I get to talk about ideas, the more I learn. So when you maybe something sparks in your mind when you're reading or you saw something on a on a video. And so you'll you'll want to call up your closest friends and have a conversation about it and kind of expand on that thought.

Exactly right. I want to expand on the thought. And then sometimes it means go back and do some more research, learn some more, talk about it again. Go back and do some more research because, you know, something came up that we don't know the answer to or I want to see if there's a formal study that was done. And it's this backwards and forwards. But for me, conversation and getting to spew ideas to a willing participant is super valuable. Yeah. Are there any big things that you've learned that maybe are a little bit backwards from what you've written and either start with why or leaders eat last?

We're like, you know what? When I wrote it, I believe that. But actually, right now, I think I think a little bit differently. Is there anything that you've come up with over those two books? there's nothing that I wrote that I disagree with but I but my learning is more sophisticated and more mature so I've built upon it you know yeah I after I wrote start with why I honestly believe that was it I was a one trick pony and that was it I'd be the you know the people called me the why guy you know for the rest of my life and that would be it and the good news is I'm a

curious sort and so I'm interested in things and my own problems I mean my books are basically semi-autobiographical. My first book was about me losing my passion and refinding it. The second book was me struggling to know who to trust and seeing people in the military. They call each other brother and sister. We call each other colleague and co-worker. There's a difference.

I wanted to know where trust and cooperation came from for the simple reason. I wanted to be around people I could trust a lot because I had a couple experiences that shattered that trust. And so it's not that I disagree, but I think that there's depth. So I think start with why gorgeous and elegant and simple. But when you read Leaders Eat Last, it gives start with

why more depth. Yeah. You know, and the stuff that I'm working on now gives Leaders Eat Last more depth. When is that out? I've just started writing, so it'll be a while. It'll be a year or two. I know we're up against assignment, but a couple more questions.

One of them's around from a public speaking perspective. People, I mean, over 25.8 million people have seen just your one TED talk, and there's more since then. So millions and millions of people have seen you speak in your world class at that. How did you develop such great skill at delivering your message? Because it's one thing to do the research. It's one thing to write about it. It's a whole other thing to get up in front of people and deliver it in such a compelling way.

I cheat as a simple answer. Tell me more. I have a very simple rule. I only talk about things I care about. and I only talk about things I understand. So can a parent speak passionately about their children? Of course, because they care about their children and they understand the lives of their children.

It's really not hard to get a parent to talk passionately about what their kids have done this year, you know? And so that's what I do. I couldn't give you an impassioned speech about the migration patterns of European swallows because I don't care. so so I you know I set an environment where I talk about things that I want to talk about and talk about things that I desperately desperately care about that's where the passion comes

from it's I actually care about the things I'm talking about yeah privately or publicly you know and and and because I never set out to be a public speaker I've always been a behind-the-scenes guy I never asked or wanted a career in the front of the proscenium I've always been a behind-the-scenes guy And so when I come and stand on the stage and speak, it's as if I'm just having a private conversation. I'm an introvert. And so it actually helps me be a public speaker because I don't hold court.

I don't speak to the audience. I look at one person in the audience and I talk directly to them with an entire sentence or an entire thought. And then I turn to somebody else and I look them in the eye and I give another person an entire sentence or an entire thought.

So I'm having a series of individual conversations. I'm not presenting anything. That's a great. love it. I love it. One more question. Simon, when you hear the phrase learning leader, what's the first thing that pops into your mind? You know, the first thing that came to mind was George Flynn. This guy is a remarkable leader and understands how to build leaders, what it takes to lead, and yet he approaches every single day like a little kid understanding he's got more to learn. It's kind of a remarkable thing. You know, Richard Branson's the same way. He knows a lot,

and yet he's so curious and wants to learn more. And when you see these truly great inspiring leaders, I'm always amazed just how interested and curious they are. They ask a lot more questions than they lecture and they never say things like, well, I think I know what I'm talking about. Look what I've built. They don't always agree with all the ideas that come to them, but they want to understand all the ideas that come to them. Yeah, I love it. Well, thank you so much for being here, Simon. I really appreciate it. Where would you send people if they want to read more about you online? You know, all the usual suspects. Our website is start with why.com and we've got lots of free resources over there. Obviously, Twitter, I tweet little inspirational thoughts whenever I have

them, Facebook, Instagram, you know, all the usual suspects. Perfect. Well, thanks again, Simon, for being here. I love this one, and I love to continue our dialogue as we both progress, man. Yeah, thanks. Thanks very much. I really, really enjoyed the interview, and thanks for helping me share these ideas. Absolutely. Thanks, Simon. Bye. is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to learningleadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12.

Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on the Learning Leader Show.