The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 122: Sarah Robb O'Hagan – EXTREME YOU: Unlocking Your Potential

Starting point is 00:00:00 I do feel quite strongly that if you don't experience failure at some point along the way, you're going to be more scared of it. And as the stakes get bigger, you need to have more of a tolerance for risk, you know. So I do think failure is a pretty important experience to go through. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success.

Starting point is 00:00:36 You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. Hey, everyone, it's Ryan. I wanted to make a quick announcement. A number of you had sent me emails in regards to asking for a place to further this dialogue with like-minded people, other listeners, fans, and friends of the Learning Leader Show. So I set up a group on Facebook. It's Facebook.com slash groups. slash learning leader. It's a closed group, but if you'd like an invite, simply shoot me a quick note,

Starting point is 00:01:13 and I'd be happy to bring you into the group. This is a place where we can freely communicate and discuss leadership, learning, creative ideas, podcasting, and new and innovative ways of thinking a place where we could potentially argue a little bit, have an open mind and have constructive dialogue. I've loved the early response from the people who are already in the group, but simply send me a note. I'll add you to it. I look forward to talking with more of you very soon. Hey, and welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk.

Starting point is 00:01:48 I absolutely love this conversation with Sarah Rob O'Hagan. Sarah has been named by Forbes as the most powerful woman in sports. Fast Company has called her one of the most creative people in business. If you take a look at her resume, she was the marketing director and general manager at Nike, then was recruited to be the CMO and then eventually president at Gatorade, incredible, and then again recruited to be the president of Equinox, and she has since left there to start her own business called Extreme You, and that's one of the big topics we discussed during our conversation tonight.

Starting point is 00:02:30 A few of the others that we got into, the biggest mistake young leaders make and their careers and how to avoid that mistake. And then what specifically Sarah learned from being, fired twice early in her career. And finally, the biggest surprise she's learned after interviewing many of the world's most successful leaders. A big thank you to Brent Shures for the idea to have Sarah as my guest for this episode.

Starting point is 00:02:58 And I love for all of you, the great listeners of the Learning Leader Show, to recommend fantastic guests like Brent did for this one. Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, it's Sarah Rob O'Hagan. Sarah, excited to have you here on The Learning Leader Show. Got a question to get us rolling, and that's around. Leaders you've spent time around who have sustained excellence over an extended period of time. I'm curious. What are some of the common characteristics those leaders who have sustained excellence all seem to share?

Starting point is 00:03:38 Well, I'm glad you said I'm curious, because to me, I think one of the biggest single things is curiosity without a doubt. And I think curiosity goes hand in hand with humility and the people that I have spent a lot of time with. And what I mean by that is they don't ever feel like they've reached the top of the mountain. They don't ever feel like they have all the answers. They're always looking for more, curious to see what else is out there, curious to see how much better they can be. And I think humility is interesting to me. It blows me away, you know, having spent a lot of time with leaders, you know, directly close to me and interviewing leaders from other industries. How, you know, I look at these people and go, my God, you're the best in the world at whatever it is you're doing.

Starting point is 00:04:29 And they're kind of like, gosh, I'm so honored that you would want to ask me question. And so I think to me there's an extraordinary humility, which is what leads you to feel like there's still more to do. Interesting. Who are the first people that come to mind when you think of sustained excellence? Oh, my goodness. Well, I have a lot of family members that I would definitely put in that bucket, you know, brothers and sisters and my parents. But, you know, I think of athletes that I've had the, you know, the extraordinary pleasure to be close to and work with. You know, I think people like Bodie Miller, who's a downhill skier, one of the best skiers. American history and just, you know, his incredible ability to just push himself and keep,

Starting point is 00:05:18 you know, going for the crash, as he says, to help himself get better. And then on the flip side, I think of someone like Angela Arrence from Apple, who's one of my great, great mentors and someone I just incredibly admire. And, you know, she continues to keep pushing herself to the next level. I mean, she's run one of the biggest, most successful companies in the world, and then she goes, makes another big move, you know? So I think what all those people have hand in hand is that just belief that there's more that they can do. You mentioned your mentor, Angela, as far as going, doing something big and then moving forward and continuing to do something else. And as I was preparing for our time together, I'm reviewing your career. And that is what you. We're

Starting point is 00:06:07 what your career has been from afar, at least for me looking at it, whether you start at Air New Zealand, Virgin Atlantic, then VP of Marketing at Atari, then you go to Nike, then you go to Gatorade as leading the whole show there. I mean, it's just, it's in on and on. I love for you, Sarah, if you could dive into the history of your career a little bit, as well as what you're looking to do moving forward. Well, first of all, I'd say I don't think I ever intended to work. at many different places necessarily. It wasn't like I set out to do that. But what I did

Starting point is 00:06:44 do is I had a very clear sense in my head of the experiences that I wanted to pursue and be a part of. So, you know, I grew up in New Zealand. It's a little country with, I always joke, four million people and 50 million sheep, you know, like let's just be real. I mean, like, so my career goal at the beginning, when I joined Daniel, New Zealand was pretty much take a job where it will fly you out of the country and go see stuff, you know. But all through college, I had been, you know, studied marketing and I was incredibly inspired by both Virgin and Nike. So in those days, those were brands that were just absolutely defining what it was to be like marketing and connecting with consumers. And I just had this little dream.

Starting point is 00:07:34 It's like, all I want to do is work for those two brands. somehow I'm going to make it work. And so I think little by little, you know, navigating from here to there and I would eventually get to these places. And it's funny, I particularly Nike, I was like, oh my God, I finally got here. I will never, never, never, never leave. But usually what would happen to me is when I got to a point where I was comfortable, it usually coincided with, you know, an opportunity coming up around the corner that I could tell was very uncomfortable and I seemed to be very drawn to those.

Starting point is 00:08:10 And so, you know, I think I always had a sense of just if opportunity knocks, you know, you don't want to ever be the person that has regrets that you didn't take a run at it. So, you know, as long as I did my thinking and planning and sort of estimated whether I could succeed it, what I thought the opportunity was, I would go for it. So you're leading your marketing director at Nike for roughly almost six years. And then you mentioned that when you kind of settle in and start becoming comfortable. And then you make the leap to being the president of Gatorade. That is not a small feat. How do you do that?

Starting point is 00:08:52 Yeah. Well, I actually went in originally as the chief marketing officer at Gatorade. And it's interesting because at the time I left Nike, I was in a role, I was in a general management role. I had gotten out of marketing. And this was something that strategically I really wanted to do. I wanted eventually to be, you know, president, a CEO, not a marketing person. And so I'd finally made that step out of my function and into general management. And then along comes this job, which is chief marketing officer.

Starting point is 00:09:24 And so I'm sitting there going, God, am I going to put myself back in? the same bucket. But I also knew, I mean, once in a lifetime opportunity, this is like at the time was the second biggest sports brand in America. It needed to be turned around. And I knew that it was a massively scary challenge, but I also knew that, wow, if I didn't get the job, probably one of my colleagues was going to. So, yeah, I think the more I saw the opportunity.

Starting point is 00:09:58 the more I thought this is one of those things that will be a game changer for my career if I if I do it and if I succeed and if I fail I also knew that that would be a complete disaster but I think I just you know I knew that not doing it I would live with so much regret and that would not be worth it you know one of the interesting thoughts that just popped to my mind a lot of people listening have gone for jobs and they go through an interview process and for some reason I don't know in my sense of curiosity, I'm always wondering the process from which someone makes the leap from being a big time leader at a company like Nike to then being the CMO at a place like Gatorade. And some people listening are 18 to 22 years old, getting their first job at a college, and they're going through like this entry level, you know, how to get a job. I love for those specific people actually to hear what it's like a little bit further in your

Starting point is 00:10:56 career to make the leap to get a big job? Like what specifically was the process? Does a recruiter come after you? Do you see an opening and you go for it? How many times do you have to interview for it? What all do you do? Do you have to, you know, how did all that exact process work? I'm fascinated by that.

Starting point is 00:11:13 Yeah. Well, I think, to be honest, it can be both in terms of does someone come after you or do you go after it. And the reason I say that is that I think particularly when you get first, up your career, it's easy to get, what's the word, I'm going to sort of comfortable with the number of people that call you with opportunities, right? Yeah, yeah. But they're not necessarily, if anyone calls you for an opportunity, that's because you

Starting point is 00:11:42 are someone that fits into a little box that they're trying to fill, and it's a good, easy move for them. That's not necessarily the box you choose to be in, right? And so like my first job out of college actually when I was hired at Air New Zealand. And in those days, I'm sure it's very similar to now, we had to take a bunch of tests, you know, competency tests to see if we could get hired by these big companies. We were all university graduates. And I completely fucked up the tests, failed them completely.

Starting point is 00:12:15 And I knew it. And I went home that day and I was like, Jesus, this is the dream job, the only job I wanted. just screwed it up. And so sure enough, they sent me the PFO letter. That's what we used to call it in those days. I know you can figure out what that means. But then I said to myself, you know what? I'm not willing to give up.

Starting point is 00:12:35 And it's a long story, but I, you know, went back to the airline and I found the hiring lady and I sat with her and I explained, like, I really, really believe that I'm the right person for this job. And please at least give me an interview. It's a long story. But point is I eventually actually did get the job. And I also think because I had gone to such extraordinary measures, as had they to hire me, you know, to create an extra role for me, it made me work so much hard at the entire time I was

Starting point is 00:13:05 there to prove that they had made the right decision. And I think that drove a lot of my success. And so point being, just because that was, you know, first job out of college, you got no experience, you got to fight for it, doesn't mean you shouldn't do that further up your career. and certainly the Gatorade example was an opportunity that came to me. You know, it was a headhunter that called me and, you know, so you go through a process. But I can remember other jobs like Virgin Atlantic where I went out of my way to figure out how to navigate in there. You know, like I would research who are the key players at that company and I would figure out where are they going to go give speeches or be at conferences and figure out ways I could connect with them.

Starting point is 00:13:50 research the company like crazy so that I had something of value to bring. So I guess my point is I don't even now today like I'm just trying to start my own company. I have to have the humility to go and ask people to use our services. I have to have the aggression and the drive to go figure it out for myself. And it doesn't mean people won't call me and say, hey, we'd love you to do this, that and the other. But if that's not strategic driving my agenda, then don't settle for it, you know? Absolutely. And you've mentioned before that I've read how much you've learned from being fired.

Starting point is 00:14:31 I would love to learn more directly from you about some of the things you've taken away from being fired. I believe not once but twice or maybe laid off. I'd love to hear more about that. Yeah, it's my favorite topic. Okay, good. I never knew that my personal brand would be the quiz. of getting fired, but apparently it is.

Starting point is 00:14:53 But no, I got, so the first time I got fired was, I was in my late 20s, I was around 26, I think, and I had just gone through a very positive experience working at Virgin Atlantic Airways, this is, you know, in the 90s, to the point where I was partying at the Cannes Film Festival with Richard Branson. I mean, come on, it doesn't get better than that when you're in your late 20s, right? Yeah. And I just seriously thought I was this shit. I just was like, it doesn't get better.

Starting point is 00:15:24 I'm on the roll. I'm this high fly and, you know, whatever. And then I transferred into Virgin Megastores, which is the music division. Most of your listeners who are young won't even know what that was because we used to have these things called CDs. Anyway, I transferred into that division because I was trying to sort of navigate out of the airline business. And it was a very exciting job, except for the fact that. that Napster had just come along, which meant that our entire industry was being disrupted massively

Starting point is 00:15:55 by music being given away for free and all the things that go with it. So the business was in crisis. And I had no idea what I was really doing to help fix the crisis. And there was a bunch of us that were hired that were new, and we were all not jelling as a team, and we were constantly sitting around bitching and moaning about the leadership and frankly I was the one leading the bitching of my own. And I got fired and it was awful.

Starting point is 00:16:26 I mean, it is one of the most horrifying, humiliating experiences that you can go through as a young person. I mean, literally, I'm talking, packing up your box, walking through the office, everyone's staring at you. You feel like a criminal. It's awful. And I think, you know, I probably spent a good couple of weeks smarting in my corner going, it was all their fault. They don't understand who I am

Starting point is 00:16:51 or what I'm good at, you know, whatever. But then I really started to reflect and realize that I had bought this on myself. I'd gotten it too big for my boots and I deserved it. And at the time, they gave me, I think I got two weeks of pay and a one-way ticket back to New Zealand

Starting point is 00:17:12 because I lost my green card application and my visa, which meant I basically, was about to get deported if I couldn't find another job that would sponsor me. So it was awful, but you know what? When you are back against the war like that, you will fight so hard to survive. And I think when I say what I learned from it, the resilience I learned from that was extraordinary. I mean, years later, when I'm trying to turn around a $5 billion sports drink brand and, you know,

Starting point is 00:17:42 I've got Wall Street analysts complaining and it's a very public, difficult battle. I think I really, really tapped into that sense of resilience because I kept saying to myself, what's the worst that can happen? They could fire me and they really probably were going to. And I kind of would say to myself, I'm going to be okay. I know how to survive that. And I think these experiences of getting fired or, you know, something going bad in your career are so useful, not only for the resilience that you build up, but for recognizing where you went,

Starting point is 00:18:17 wrong and how to sort of hone the parts of your skill set or your personality that are not helping you. What do you think happens if you don't get fired? He keeps going along. They just kind of leave you be, keep partying with Richard Branson. I'm curious because the reason I ask that question is for a specific reason, and that is, is there a way to gain those learnings without getting fired? You know, I think there is.

Starting point is 00:18:45 And I think it's about having great mentors in your life that tell you when you're out of line and you listen to them. And I think, you know, I've had incredible mentors in my life. I'm really lucky. And the kinds of people that will kick me in the ass when I need it, you know. And I think that happened to be a period of time for whatever reason where I was not in contact with those people enough. And so in hindsight, could I have taken the learnings? Yes. Like, I'm sure I don't remember the exact details,

Starting point is 00:19:24 but I bet you somewhere along that journey, I probably had a bad review telling me that I wasn't, you know, I was being disruptive or whatever. What I should have done is sat down with a mentor and really worked it through and listened, and I did it. So, yeah, I think that there are definitely less disruptive ways to take those learnings. Now that said, I do feel quite strongly that if you don't experience failure at some point

Starting point is 00:19:56 along the way, you're going to be more scared of it. And as the stakes get bigger, you need to have more of a tolerance for risk, you know. So I do think failure is a pretty important experience to go through. Oh, I love that about it. experience and failure so that you've, it's just, you know, I can relate it back to playing sports and some of the adversity that faced when we, when we practiced in the prep, and my, the best coaches I ever played for did a phenomenal job of preparing us for the tough moments in the games so that literally the games ended up being easier than the practices.

Starting point is 00:20:36 And I think as a coach or a leader, it behooves you to put your people in those positions so that once they have a big presentation or have a big moment where they need to be prepared, that you've done your job to get them ready so that it's actually easier on the game day, so to speak, than it is when you're practicing. And I believe that experience has certainly helped propel me. Another question I have, again, based on people who listen and send emails to the show, which I love getting. And that is, what do you think, Sarah, is? or are the biggest mistakes young managers or leaders make in their careers as they're developing and trying to grow their careers?

Starting point is 00:21:26 Young managers or leaders? Well, I think maybe this is a little bit earlier on, but I do think early on, young people can get very focused on, A, it's all about making money and being powerful, as opposed to really doing something fulfilling. So we'll come back to that. But be focusing so much on sort of individual contributions and successes as opposed to really understanding where you become brilliant is the multiplier effect of how you can help others achieve their potential.

Starting point is 00:22:08 And I think that's a really tough transition that we all go through at some point. as managers becoming leaders. Like when you start to realize that it is not about you and what you can think and what you can do, but it's how you can unleash this potential in people around you. How have you specifically done that, let's just say at Gatorade or at Equinox? Because, I mean, we haven't even got to that part in your career, which is another very impressive part where you're the president of Equinox. Equinox.

Starting point is 00:22:44 So, I mean, you've picked for many of the remarkable roles that you've had that you've specifically, I'm thinking from a practical perspective, like this is something I actually implemented. We did. And this is the result of it because I love practical, practical, actionable tips. So I think the transition from Gatorade to Equinox was a great example of where it happened to me. Because at Gatorade, that was a business that was in turnaround.

Starting point is 00:23:11 I mean, it's a $5 billion global business that was losing 20% off its top line every month. So you do the math. It's huge, right? So that's a crisis. And when I went into that job, I was having to, we were having to sort of think through what these solutions were and hire the right team to implement those solutions all at the same time. And so I think I, by nature of the situation, ended up doing a lot more of the, you know, thinking, crafting the solutions than I otherwise would have.

Starting point is 00:23:49 And so, and then also by the time I left, because I had become sort of that person, everyone had to turn to me to answer every question because it had, you know, we'd shifted the trajectory of the business so much. So I remember coming to Equinox and very, like, specifically in my own head saying, I am not going to let that happen this time. this is a successful business. It's on a great trajectory. We definitely want to step change its ability to grow in terms of,

Starting point is 00:24:19 you know, we're going to really rethink the offering in terms of technologies and all sorts of things. But I just in my head said, I have to be very careful to certainly throw the long-term vision out to the team, but then let them be the ones to really, really drive after that vision and not try and tell them what to do, but actually get behind them and lead from behind and really sort of amplify their thoughts and their efforts. And there's no question. Like we had some incredible successes at Equinox because of exactly that. Like seeing

Starting point is 00:24:56 the amount of talent and innovative thinking that was inside that company and really getting behind them and supporting them and protecting them from when things might go wrong and, you know, expecting them to really take things to the next level, it was extraordinary what people will do if you put them in that position. If on the flip side, you turn around and say, this is what I'm expecting you to do and you're very prescriptive with people, it's human nature that they're not going to fight as hard for something that you've come up with as they are for something that they've constructed themselves. Do you know Captain David Marquet by chance? You don't? It's interesting.

Starting point is 00:25:41 I had him on the podcast, and he led USS Santa Fe, which was the worst performing nuclear submarine for the United States. And when he took over and when he left, it was they were winning. They were basically ranked the best. And the reason that I thought of Marquet is because that was his part of his strategy when he took over was to give ownership. to the people on the sub and to develop, have them develop it. Obviously, he's there to lead, but he really wanted them to figure it out on their own. It's kind of the way I think some of the people, some great parents are doing where you're certainly to be there for your children, but they need to figure it out sometimes.

Starting point is 00:26:31 And they need to pick themselves up when they get off the bike. They need to learn sometimes the hard way of how to do things better. feels like that's the approach you took. That's the approach Marque took. And I think short term, it can be really challenging. It can be really tough. As a parent, it can be very painful to see your child going through that. But in the long run, it seems to always work better that way.

Starting point is 00:26:58 And that seems to be your approach. Am I right there? No question. It is a hundredth in my approach. And it's a big piece of honestly of why I am going down this path of writing a book about this kind of topic and dedicating my life to it because I feel like right now, you know, culture shifted in the last 20 years and, you know, whether it was helicopter parenting, participation trophies, the averaging out of, you know, even think at college,

Starting point is 00:27:28 the links that we went to to protect people from seeing that they may not be doing as badly as they think, you know, you talk to the average college professor about how grades have been, the bell curve has been flattened completely. And it's really interesting because if you continue to sort of raise and nurture people this way, both in childhood and also in the workplace, you're dampening their potential. You're not giving them that opportunity to, like I said before, fail really. absorb and learn from it and sort of build the resilience that it takes to drive forward and go to bigger places, which like I said before, if you intend to be a big leader in the world

Starting point is 00:28:18 today, the stakes get bigger, the older you get. I actually, one person you should have on your show I interviewed for my book is Angela Lee Duckworth, who's just... Oh, yeah, grit, right? Yeah, her book's coming out next month on this whole topic of grit. And it's so important that we start, you know, changing this conversation to really allowing people. Like you said, it's hard in the short term. It's painful to watch.

Starting point is 00:28:44 The mistakes happen. But then, my God, it's so powerful in the long term once they learn and things start to kick in and work. Speaking of that, you've made an interesting choice. So, like I said, your career has been incredible from big-time jobs, whether it's Atari, Nike, Gatorade, Equino. and now you've decided to leave and to start your own brand and company called ExtremeU, which I know the book is coming out in 2017. You're going to have a website. You're going to do a lot of things.

Starting point is 00:29:17 Why leave? I mean, you've had an incredible rocket ship type career, and you've decided to say, you know what, I'm done with that, at least for now, it appears, and start your own company. Why? I think because I decided, so I started writing this book two years ago and the premise of the book, it's called Extreme U and it's about how, you know, people with ordinary talents achieve extraordinary lives and successes and how do they do that. And, you know, I've interviewed a lot of very high profile people. I have my own experiences and story in there.

Starting point is 00:29:57 And what you see is that the way, the method that extremers, I call them, use is completely different to the way we have been raising this generation, as I was just saying. So I think the further I got into it, firstly, I just felt, wow, you know, I would be talking to people about it and everyone's like, you're absolutely right, this needs to change. So I felt this extraordinary calling that someone has to make this happen. But secondly, I also felt that I needed to walk my own talk. Like one of the chapters we have in the book is called Break Yourself to Make Yourself. And it is about how extraordinary people, they don't sit on their laurels when they come to.

Starting point is 00:30:40 They tend to, you know, figure out what's the next place that's really going to challenge me. And in my case, you know, I could have gone on to the next big job. And, you know, maybe I will one day. who knows, but I just knew that that was a continuation of a set of muscles that I built up very well and to throw myself out into the void, into the open, and just try and build something from scratch would really, really make me uncomfortable, and it has. But I know that no matter what happens out of it, I'm going to, I'm learning more right now that I have in many years, and I think that's just the most valuable part.

Starting point is 00:31:26 And I think lastly, I felt quite strongly that I was writing this book, and I'm very passionate about the topic, and the number of people that have been so kind is to participate and be a part of it. And I just was like, I can't just mail it in and hope it does well. I've got to put everything I can in to make sure this great message gets out to the world. And so I kind of said, that's what I'm going to do. And at least then, whether it succeeds or doesn't succeed, at least I know I put everything I could have into it. It's inspiring and empowering as well.

Starting point is 00:32:00 I love to hear it. I have a couple more questions, Sarah. What is the greatest piece of advice you've ever received? I tend to always answer this question with my old man, my dad, always used to say without risk does not come great reward. And I think that's been a really deeply ingrained part of my value system since I was a young child, I think. Like, it just not, I've always known that I was ambitious and I wanted big things. And just inherently, I knew that big things don't come to people who just mosey along in the middle of the road. You've got to be willing to just take those big, bold moves to get there.

Starting point is 00:32:50 Absolutely. Is there a book in your life that has influenced you more than any other? It's funny. I don't know that there's a book. There's definitely really important books in sort of moments of my life. Like, funnily enough, this is going to completely geek you out. But when I was like 18, for some bizarre reason, I read Being Digital by Nicholas Negroponte, which was all about how the world was going to be so giantly impacted by technology.

Starting point is 00:33:27 And you have to remember, in those days, the Internet didn't exist. I mean, that's how far back it was. But I just read that book and knew from that day onwards that I needed to obsess and understand technology. And in a way that, like, because people often say to me, for my age, I'm far more, you know, digitally native than, most of my peers and it's that's why you know it just happened to be this book that blew me away with the possibilities that you know change the way i thought likewise you know fast forward to now i know you had simonac on your show i'm a big fan to start with why i'd say about you know i think i read that five years ago probably and you know it was a huge just thought changer for me

Starting point is 00:34:15 both personally and professionally as i was trying to turn gatorade around it was just such a simple way of articulating to large groups of people what we were trying to do, you know. And right now I am a total fan girl of Adam Grant's originals. Yeah. Which just came out. Adam's been a huge supporter of the work I'm doing with my book. But he, I just think it's fantastic to read it and sort of he really dispels some of the myths that we all think, you know, about what it takes to be a great successful entrepreneur

Starting point is 00:34:48 or original thinker. And so I really recommend that one for people. You know, I'm glad you brought that up because originals is certainly one of my favorite. Adams, potentially my favorite writer. Yeah. I've ever read, maybe.

Starting point is 00:35:02 And one of the aspects he brought up that maybe is counter to what you've said a few minutes ago, specifically thinking of the guys who started Warby Parker. And they, all of the four guys, Adam tells a story because they asked, him to invest prior to starting the company. And he said no. And the reason Adam said no was because all of the guys had backup plans. They all secured internships or full-time jobs. And he viewed that

Starting point is 00:35:32 as them not being fully committed, them not willing to take the risk. And they did that partially because they did want to have a backup plan. And he argues that originals can. And sometimes that some of the evidence suggests that it's okay to have a backup plan and some of the greatest originals of all time have. But the advice you gave earlier is that you must, without risk, without risk does not come great reward. And so I'm curious when you mix in originals and the Warby Parker guys, and there are certainly many other stories in that book and some of Adam Grant's work, how that meshes with the best

Starting point is 00:36:12 advice you've received and how you've approached your career and leave. leaving, you know, the opportunity to lead these massive companies and do great, have great accomplishments, yet mix that with some of Adams' research. I love to hear your thoughts on that. Well, no, it's funny because I was really, really, I'm so enjoyed that particular insight in his book because in actual fact, it made me feel a lot better about the risk I was taking because I realized, you know, when I had decided to leave my job, you know, it's not like I just suddenly woke up one day and said,

Starting point is 00:36:50 okay, I'm quitting, I'm putting everything into this opportunity. By the time I got there, it had been rattling around in my head for two years. And we almost had, you know, conceptually the ideas of the book and everything. Like I actually had a roadmap, you know what I mean? And so point being, that I think ultimately, even for the Warby Parker guys, at some point you have to jump. You know, at some point you have to decide I'm going to get after this.

Starting point is 00:37:21 And what I think, and I think that is a risk, but it's a very calculated risk. And I think, you know, for me, every step of the way, and I've gotten better as I've gotten older, I take big risks, but I do a lot of calculating before I do them. And I think that's a little bit what he's saying. And then I think what I would add to it is one of my favorite sayings that Anthony Salimi is my work coach that I've had for about six or eight years now. And he always used to say to me, don't worry about making the right decision.

Starting point is 00:37:57 Worry about making the decision right. And I think that's what ultimately binds a lot of these originals, you know, and what I would call extremers together is that, there comes a point where you have to make the leap, then fight like cats of dogs to make it work. And it may not work in the original format that you thought it was going to. Who knows? Like I'm going through that whole process right now of, you know, there are so many different ways in which my hopes for Extreme You could come to life. And I don't exactly know which is the right one. but ultimately you have to just throw yourself into it and try and figure it out.

Starting point is 00:38:43 Otherwise, you're never going to get there. For Extreme, you've interviewed some of some world-class performers in all different areas of life. Really well-known people, people who have had massive amounts of success. What's the biggest surprise maybe that you've learned through those interviews? Because I'm sure you won into it with preconceived notions. you're fully aware of the importance of self-awareness and how to be resilient. What about something that may have surprised you along the way as you've been researching and writing this book? Honestly, I think it would be humility.

Starting point is 00:39:20 I think it blows me away what every single one of them has in common is that incredible levels of success, yet still feeling so vulnerable and so kind of like not even seeing the level of success the way everyone else does. And I think that is a big driver of what we started this conversation with, of this sort of ongoing relentless curiosity and willingness to learn and do more. because I just, I think what was interesting to me is how, you know, quite a few of them would get to just like top of their game in a particular area or specialty or whatever and then decide, okay, now I want to try and get over to here and the willingness to go right into the bottom of something and start learning from scratch. And that's hard to do if you're already really successful, you know, but they just, had that sort of humility and willingness to to go there and and and put the time like the hard not only hours and work into it but the sort of not knowing where it might end up.

Starting point is 00:40:40 I love it. I love it. Sarah, one more question. When you hear the phrase learning leader, what is the first thought that comes to mind? I love it because I think I think to be a great leader. you have to be learning. And if you're not, I think, you know, people who think they are great leaders who actually don't have many followers are generally the ones who are not open to learning and changing and evolving with, you know, the input of the people around them. So I think it's fantastic. I love the concept.

Starting point is 00:41:20 Awesome. Thank you so much, Sarah. I, um, you have brought a massive amount of value. Your story is incredible. I'm so excited to see what, um, the future brings for you, especially your book and extreme you and everything. Where would you just, um, send everybody to learn more about you online? Um, extreme u.com.

Starting point is 00:41:42 So extreme yow. com is where we're building our little hub. So that's where the information is. And sign up to become an extreemer. Uh, love it. Love it. All right, Sarah, thanks again for your investment of the time. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:41:56 It's so awesome. It's been a lot of fun. Yeah, you too. Okay. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to Learningleadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on The Learning Leader Show.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 122: Sarah Robb O'Hagan – EXTREME YOU: Unlocking Your Potential

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