The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 131: Marshall Goldsmith – The #1 Leadership & CEO Coach In The World

Starting point is 00:00:00 My name is Marshall Goldsmith. I'm the world's leading executive coach. I pay a woman to call me on the phone every day just to listen to me, read questions I wrote and provide answers I wrote. Why do I do this? I'm too cowardly to do this by myself. And I'm too undisciplined to do this by myself. I need help. And it's okay.

Starting point is 00:00:19 It's okay. Well, once we get over this macho, I can do it on my own crap. Life is so much better. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. Hey, guys, it's Ryan Update in regards to the Facebook group we've set up.

Starting point is 00:00:59 I'm so happy to see the response that we've gotten from so many great fellow learning leaders, the conversation and the dialogue has been fantastic, so I'd love to invite all of you to further the conversation and join us. Simply go to learning leader.com slash group. Learningleader.com slash group, and we will add you to the community. And you can join like-minded individuals to discuss leadership topics. Argue a little bit. Maybe we can disagree. I think that's how we all learn. But it's been fantastic. so far. I've loved really engaging with you guys, the great listeners of the Learning Leader Show. So go to

Starting point is 00:01:41 Learning Leader.com slash group. We'll add you, and I look forward to talking with you soon. Hey, and welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawking. Thank you so much for being here. I'm so excited for tonight's feature leaders with Dr. Marshall Goldsmith. He's the author or editor of 35 books, which have sold millions of copies worldwide. He's written two New York Times bestsellers titled Mojo and What Got You Here Won't Get You There, probably the best book title of all the time.

Starting point is 00:02:16 His newest book is titled Triggers, Creating Behavior That Last, Becoming the Person You Want to Be. Another interesting aspect to Marshall. If you Google helping successful leaders, you'll see something really cool. And that's the fact that of the 3,500 plus results, virtually every single one of them point to Marshall. Yes, the guy that you're about to hear on this podcast is the number one coach when it comes to leadership, specifically around managers and CEOs. A few of the things we got into. His unique coaching process of not getting paid unless they have specific measurements and targets that have been hit by his client. And the number he also charges for each of them is extraordinary.

Starting point is 00:02:58 And then the number one sign that someone is not a great leader, followed by a daily two-minute exercise that I want all of us to implement. I promise I'll be right there with you. Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, it's Dr. Marshall Goldsmith. Marshall, it's an honor to have you here on the Learning Leaders Show. So first, welcome to the podcast. Very happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Yeah, I got a question to get a start.

Starting point is 00:03:32 And that's around, see, the fact that you've spent a great portion of your life around some of the best performers, the best leaders in the world, people who have done a good job of sustaining excellence over an extended period of time. I'm very curious from your perspective. What are some of the common themes you found in those people? Well, my mission is to help successful leaders achieve positive long-term change in behavior for themselves or people and their teams. So in terms of leaders I work with who do a good job of that, there are three things that stand out. One, they have to have the courage to look in the mirror. They have to have the courage to challenge themselves and see themselves like a

Starting point is 00:04:15 others see them. Two, they have to have the humility to admit they can improve. And then three, they have to have the discipline to do the hard work and follow-up required to get better. Interesting. So courage, humility, and discipline. I love that. So when I say the word or the phrase, sustained excellence, who are the first people that come to mind? Two that I mentioned in a couple of my books. One is Francis Hesselbein, who Peter Drucker said was the greatest leader I ever met. She's ranked as one of the 50 top leaders in the world this year in Fortune magazine. C.O. the Girl Scouts 14 years, 20 honorary PhDs,

Starting point is 00:04:54 editor of an academic journal, and she's 100 years old. Wow. So she's an amazing, amazing woman. And the other one would be my friend, Alan Malawi. Alan was the CEO Ford Motor Company. Stock went from $1 to 1840. A spectacular leader before 40 was a CEO Boeing commercial aircraft, a wonderful human being, a fantastic leader who has just done an amazing job of two

Starting point is 00:05:17 the greatest turnarounds in the United States. So you're known, Marshall, as being one of the, actually, I would rather you phrase when somebody walks up to you on the street and says, hey, Marshall, what do you do? How do you respond? I do three things. One is I give talks or teach classes. So I'm a teacher. I travel all around the world speaking and teaching.

Starting point is 00:05:40 I've been to 96 countries. Or in American Airlines alone, I have over 11 million frequent flyer miles. So one job is I'm a speaker or a teacher, that's what I enjoy the most. Two, which I'm most famous for it. I'm an executive coach. And my coaching clients are CEOs or could be CEOs of huge corporations. So I'm in the coach of the CEO, Ford, Pfizer, Glaxo, Walmart, President of the World Bank, head of the Mayo Clinic, all kinds of fascinating people.

Starting point is 00:06:06 What I love about coaching is that's where I learn everything. And then third, I'm an author. And I've written or edited 35 books. I've done three New York Times bestsellers. The biggest three are, what got your ear, won't get you there, a mojo and triggers. So, specifically, the aspect of being a CEO coach is really fascinating to me because I think the average person thinks that someone has become a CEO that they've got a lot of things figured out. They're obviously pretty smart. They've done a lot of great things in order to achieve that position, whether they created the business and they've stayed the CEO or they've,

Starting point is 00:06:40 have been promoted or hired to run a company. But just like anything else, I think that one of the common themes I've noticed, Marshall, and after having 120, 130 conversations is that the best in the world, the best achievers, the best performers, one of their common threads is the fact that they all need and understand the need for a coach. And so that's what you do. So walk we through the process for, one, being identified and getting hired by a company like Walmart to say, you know, we're going to hire Marshall Goldsmith to come coach our

Starting point is 00:07:14 leaders. And two, then what's the process for getting started and implementing some of the things that you teach? Well, you know, one thing I'm very proud of is in my book, Triggers, 27 major CEOs endorsed the book. And again, these are very, very big people, very big companies, Pfizer and Target and Best Buy and all kinds of companies endorse the book. What I'm proud of is, and this is something you mentioned, 30 years ago, almost no CEO would admit to have any coach. It would be a shame to have a coach, whereas today, I think they're proud to have a coach. So the world has changed a lot in a positive way. Back to your earlier comment, how many of the top 10 tennis players have coaches? Ten. Well, it's not that they're not successful.

Starting point is 00:08:00 They have a coach because they want to keep trying to get better. Bob Dylan had a good quote, well, he who is not busy being born is busy dying. So I think there's a lot of truth to that. In my coaching, what I do is I only work with people that care, and I have a very unique coaching process. I don't get paid if my clients don't get better. Better is not judged by me or my client is judged by everyone around my client. There's always a way to test and someone really believes what they're saying. To me, you can ask a person one question and instantly determine their level of belief. I've never seen the question fail. It's a simple question. The question is, do you want to bet on it? And if they say, I believe it, but I don't want to bet on it, they don't believe it.

Starting point is 00:08:40 If they say here's the money, they believe it. Well, I bet on this every time. Now, how does my coaching process work? Every leader I work with has to get confidential feedback from everyone around them. They pick important behavior to improve. They have to talk to people about what they learn in this feedback. They follow up on a rigorous basis. They talk to me on a regular basis.

Starting point is 00:09:00 They get measured twice. And assuming they achieve positive long-term change in the right behavior is judged by the right people. I get paid. Wow. How many other coaches have that type of pay structure? Not too many. And so let's say, so you walked into Walmart to coach, was it their leaders or a leader at Walmart? Walmart was a little bit different. I either coach the CEO, which is the most of the people I coach, the future CEO. In Walmart's case, I helped the CEO at the time Mike Duke develop the next generation of leaders, which all. ultimately led to the succession of Doug McMillan.

Starting point is 00:09:40 So that's what I did there. Walmart was a little bit different. I'm usually either coaching the CEO or the future CEO. Walmart, I help the CEO coach the next level of potential CEOs. Do you, or maybe it's been enough time, and I'm curious to get your thought process, because I think a lot of us, sometimes we get asked to go speak, and I get emails from listeners, and I feel this way myself sometimes. We get asked to go and have a talk to somebody, and I have to, you know, be trained.

Starting point is 00:10:07 transparent, honest here. Like, I don't always feel super worthy of that. And I know that's probably not the right thing to say, but that's, those are my honest feelings where I feel like, really, they want me to come talk and share my message. Like, I'm kind of surprised at times. I'm happy to do it. I'm flattered and I always really prepared to do a good job. When someone, when a company like Walmart, who is, you know, they just print money essentially, says, you know what, we need help from you. Do you, are you past the stage where you, you, you you feel worthy of being there? Or how did you get past that stage if you are? No, I'm way past that. I've been doing this for 39 years. Yep. So I've been doing it for 39 years. So I'm kind of the world's expert on this.

Starting point is 00:10:52 I know. I know. So I'm curious about what it was like from. If you do a Google search helping successful leaders in quotes, you're the man. First 500 hits, 450 or me. Right. So I'm kind of the authority on this one.

Starting point is 00:11:05 So I cannot honestly say, that I feel kind of intimidated or, you know, am I worthy to do this? So when was the moment that you got past that? Well, you know, I'll tell you where, with a funny question you ask, executive education. Many years ago, I'm very blessed. I worked with a nice man named Dr. Paul Hersey. Now, Dr. Paul Hersey was very famous and I wasn't.

Starting point is 00:11:29 And then Dr. Hersey got double-booked one day, and he said, Marshall, can you do what I do? I said, I don't know. He said, I need help. Can you do what I do? He said, I don't know. He said, I'll pay $1,000 for one day. That was 39 years ago. I was making $15,000 for one year. You know what I said? Signed me up. Yeah. Well, I did a program for a Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, and they were completely pissed off when I showed up.

Starting point is 00:11:52 I think I was saved because I was too ignorant to know how important they were, and I was bald, so I looked older than I was. I was saved by ignorance and baldness, but they liked me. So they called Paul up and said, look, we were angry when Marshall showed up, sending him back. So I go to work for Paul. We go into do this presentation for IBM many years ago, and IBM was the most admired company in the world. I was scared to death. I kept my hands under the table because they were shaking. The first 15 minutes of the conversation was Richman Talk, you know, about boats and much of crap.

Starting point is 00:12:23 And, you know, my dad had a gas station in Valley Station in Kentucky, so I really wasn't too first on Richman Talk. So I just kind of sat there. But then we got started, and then the IBM guy, and IBM was the most admired company at the world at the time, and this was the biggest sale in leadership development history. He looked at Paul and he says, Paul, what can you do for us? Paul said, well, I need to know your goals because if I don't know your goals, there's nothing I can do for you. The guy says, well, you know,

Starting point is 00:12:50 those people at the top, they don't need help, they're fine. And the ones in the middle, they're the other ones who want you to help. And the bottom ones, they're kind of hopeless anyway. So that's what we're looking for. So Paul looks at the guy and says, he said, that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I'm sitting there going, okay, goodbye, we're finished, right? The guy looks at his watch, you know,

Starting point is 00:13:08 a little signal like, okay, boy, you better have something to say now. and Paul said, look, the real big return is on the top 10%. That's where your biggest return is. And I know IBM's not writing off the bottom 10 or 15% of people in a company. That's against your corporate values. The guy looked at Paul and he said, you're right. That's the stupidest thing I ever said.

Starting point is 00:13:29 And then Paul starts talking. And then he started talking and he threw the little marker over to me and said, Marshall knows this. And I stood up and I started talking. And I'd been a professor. And the executives started raising their hand and I was calling on them. I was calling on them like when I was a professor. And after that meeting, I said to Paul, I said, Paul, it's as big as it gets.

Starting point is 00:13:56 I'll never be afraid again. Thank you. That's awesome. I love the story. Yeah. So as I was preparing, I had a lot of thoughts. And I just was really looking forward to this. And so I want to share some of these questions.

Starting point is 00:14:11 that popped in my mind when I was reading through articles, watching videos, reading your books. So one of them was around, if you were analyzing a person, what's the number one sign that someone is not a great leader? You know, I think one of my good clients taught me this. He said, for the great achiever, it's all about me and for the great leader. It's all about them. One of the signs that was probably not going to be a great leader is too much about me, me, me, me, me, me, me. In my book, What guy you here won't get you there? I was to ask, what's the number one problem of the executives you've worked with over the years? And my answer was winning too much.

Starting point is 00:14:52 What does that mean? It's important we want to win, meaningful we want to win, critical we want to win, trivial we want to win and not worth it. We want to win anyway. It's incredibly difficult for winners not to constantly win. A case study I used in a book is you want to go to dinner at restaurant X. your husband and life or partner wants to go to dinner at restaurant Y. He had a heated argument. You go to restaurant Y. It was not your choice. Food tastes awful and the service is terrible.

Starting point is 00:15:19 Option A, critique the food. Point out our partner was wrong. This mistake could have been avoided if only listen to me, me, me. Option B, shut up, eat the stupid food, try to enjoy it and have a nice evening. What would I do? What should I do? Well, most of us, what would we do? What should we do? Shut up.

Starting point is 00:15:38 Well, it's very hard for smart and successful people not to win, not to prove we're right. I also had the privilege of working many years with Peter Drucker. He taught me this. Our mission in life is to make a positive difference, not to prove how smart we are and not prove how right we are. We get so lost in proving how smart we are and right we are. We forget that that's not what we're here on earth for. We're going to make a positive difference. Really interesting.

Starting point is 00:16:04 It's a great book. I mean, it's one of the best titles, too, I think I've ever seen. of a book. What was your process for titling that book? I just popped in my mind because sure. You know what I mean? Pure luck. What do you mean? Number one, it's the greatest title in history. I mean, if you just do Google search, what got you here

Starting point is 00:16:20 won't get you there. Thousands and thousands of hits, right? Yeah. It's almost a popular phrase now. It is. In the common business vocabulary. And what happened is, I was at the publishers, and I hold one hand in the air and they said, what's the book about? I said, well, it's kind of like, what got you here,

Starting point is 00:16:36 it won't get you here, pointed in the other direction. And somebody said, that sounds really stupid. Why don't you say, what got you here, won't get you there? I said, okay, let's call the book that. That's where the title came from. Wow. A lot of life is luck. It worked.

Starting point is 00:16:50 What was it? Did you have another title before that? No. Okay, so that just became in one. Now, the other thing is, see, the three best books I've done, What Got You Here Won't Get You There, Mojo, and Triggers. I didn't write any of those books. The books were all written by my friend, Mark Ryder, R-E-I-T-E-R.

Starting point is 00:17:07 they're my ideas. I have the ideas. So I talk, he writes, I talk, he writes. We put it together and have a book. And it's also my agent. And we split everything 50-50. We have a great partnership. And I'm a very good professional quality writer.

Starting point is 00:17:22 He is better than I am. The guy is fantastic. If you read my books, they read like novels. They don't read like business books. Very, I like to say, like they're, when you can be educational and entertaining, that's when you know you've done some pretty good work. and actionable takeaways, and that's what you've done. So I didn't fully realize that.

Starting point is 00:17:41 So you'll sit together in a room and you will basically dictate your thoughts and then he writes? Yeah, he tape records everything. Wow. And then he writes, and then we go back and forth. And he's also my agent. So we split everything 50-50. So my last book, Triggers, he comes to me and says, you know, I think a great name is Triggers for the book. I said, I think Triggers is a sucking name.

Starting point is 00:18:06 Triggers. Sounds like a horse or gun or something, right? I don't like that name. He said, it's very interesting. You don't like it. He said, we've been offered about $1.6 million in advances for a book called Triggers. You know what I said? I love the name Triggers. I'm glad I thought of that name. That is great. Obviously, he was right. From a book advance perspective, that's got to be in probably the upper, what, 1% of the 0.7.0.0.0. I mean, I've heard, I've heard, of big advances, but I don't know if I've heard of one that big, but it makes sense. That's way up there, right? Let's talk about triggers on. Let's go there.

Starting point is 00:18:44 Discuss, I mean, I was going through it online and looking through, and I think one thing that's interesting to me is always pick out chapter titles that really peak your interest, because sometimes I don't read the book straight through. Sometimes I do. It just depends. And so I love to talk about how we identify our triggers. Well, you know, as we journey through life, we all make these plans. We all have these fantastic plans about this person we're going to be, and the day we're going to experience. And, you know, this ideal person is always in perfect physical condition and nice person and never says bad things about people and works hard and yada, yada, yada, yada. There's usually a detour between this ideal person and the person actually shows up every day.

Starting point is 00:19:30 So in my book Triggers, one of the reasons is we're constantly bombarded by triggers. Now, what's a trigger? Any stimulus may impact our behavior. Cite, a sound, a word, event. And the book talks about how the environment shapes our behavior and how to learn to either anticipate triggers or adjust to triggers or avoid triggers as best we can. So as we journey through life, we're closer and closer to becoming the person we want to be as opposed to just being buffeted by the environment and becoming the person that's created

Starting point is 00:20:06 by the world around us. So we talk about the fact, and I bring this up a lot on this podcast actually, and it goes hand in hand with some of the things you've written about and triggers, where you discuss the fact that a lot of people, and I think people who are, you know, somewhat successful are good planners, they're good note takers, they're good at seeking advice and knowledge at conferences or or sometimes maybe even coaching. However, the implementation and execution of those ideas that we've learned is where we're lacking the action part, the taking action that that's so necessary for sustained excellence, I believe. So could you share some specific tips for people who are good

Starting point is 00:20:50 at going to those conferences but are bad at implementing what they've learned? Well, number one, I totally agree with what you just said. It's so, so true. The second thing is I'm not going to share a technique for your listeners. It takes two minutes a day, costs absolutely nothing, help get better at almost anything. Some people are skeptical now, thinking, yeah, right, two minutes a day, cost nothing.

Starting point is 00:21:13 Helming it gets better at almost anything sounds too good to be true. Half the people start doing this quit within two weeks. And they do not quit because it does not work. They quit because it does work. So I'm going to teach you next to something called the daily question process. Very easy

Starting point is 00:21:29 to understand, very hard to do. Okay. So here's how it works. Get out an Excel spreadsheet. On one column, we write down a series of questions to represent what's most important in your life. It could be friends, family, business, health, whatever it is for you.

Starting point is 00:21:43 Every question has to be answered with a yes and no or a number. Yes is recorded as a one, no is a zero or a number. And he fill it out every day. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, a little spreadsheet. And at the end of the week, you get a report card. And I will warn your listeners at advance. The report card at the end of the week may not be quite as beautiful as a corporate values plaque that got stuck up on a wall.

Starting point is 00:22:07 When you do this every day, you quickly learn life is incredibly easy to talk. Life is incredibly difficult to live. I pay a woman named Kate to call me on the phone every day, and all she does is listen to me, read questions I wrote and provide answers I wrote every day. I pay a woman. Somebody said, why do you pay a woman to call you on the phone every day just to listen to you read questions that you wrote and provide answers? as you wrote, don't you know the theory about how to change behavior? I wrote the theory about how to change behavior. That's why I pay a woman to call me on the phone.

Starting point is 00:22:41 I know how hard it is. I have 11 million frequent flyer miles on one airline. That's an excuse to be a bad father, a bad grandfather, a bad husband, out of shape. How many excuses do I get with 11 million frequent flyer miles? Excuses don't help. Why do I pay a woman to call me on the phone every day? My name is Marshall Goldsmith. I am the world's leading executive coach.

Starting point is 00:23:05 I pay a woman to call me on the phone every day just to listen to me, read questions I wrote and provide answers I wrote. Why do I do this? I'm too cowardly to do this by myself. And I'm too undisciplined to do this by myself. I need help. And it's okay. It's okay.

Starting point is 00:23:21 Well, once we get over this macho, I can do it on my own crap, life is so much better. And once we admit we all need help. And it's okay. The great book, The Checklist Manifesto, Dr. Atul Gawande from Harvard. If the nurse asks the doctor a series of very simple questions from a checklist before surgery, the on unneeded infection plummet, the death rates cut by two-thirds. Huge majority of hospitals around the world don't let the nurse ask the doctor the questions.

Starting point is 00:23:50 Why? Ego. According to Dr. Gwandi, more people died because the ego is a surgeon's and died in the Vietnam War and the Afghan War and the Iraqi War put together. number three cause of death in the United States last year was medical error. Why? Just too much pride. Unwilling to admit they need help.

Starting point is 00:24:09 Too proud, too egotistical. So I think once we get over this ego stuff, life is a whole, whole lot better, a whole lot better. Let me give you an example. Yeah. Now, Ryan, is there anything in your life that you've been needing to fix for year after year after year, but you haven't fixed it yet? Well, there's probably many things. Just give me one. Something I need to fix

Starting point is 00:24:29 But you haven't fixed it for years You've been telling yourself You should get better at this for years But you haven't done it Oh man, you put me on the spot You know I mean one minor thing would be As far as being handy around my home

Starting point is 00:24:44 I'm not I've not done a good job of that Good Get help Right I know That's it right Hey get out What about what So what about the people, and this is what I've done, and this, you know, this is funny that you're getting me to talk about this.

Starting point is 00:25:03 But what about somebody like me who hires people to do that? It's good. Well, they'll say, oh, I'll say something, but I'm not getting help. I'm literally hiring somebody else to do it for me, and I don't do it. That's fine. Okay. Because in a way, like you feel like. By the way, let me give me.

Starting point is 00:25:20 As a husband of the house. One of my clients with Steve Sanger, CEO of General Mills. Okay. So I coached a couple of people. for Steve, and then he wanted me coach a new guy. I said, Steve, why do you want to hire me for? You know my coach a prize as well as I do. You can do this. You know what he said?

Starting point is 00:25:35 Number one, I'm probably not really as good at you are at this, since it's what you do for a living and I'm a CEO. Number two, I don't really enjoy this and you do. And he said, number three, you know, you're very expensive, but I'm more expensive. So explain to me, since you're better at this and you enjoy night on, you're cheaper than I am. Why should I not hire you?

Starting point is 00:25:55 you know what I said? Good point. Yeah. A good point. Why shouldn't you hear me? Made a lot of sense to me. I agree. Well, you know, let me give you some of my questions on my daily question process.

Starting point is 00:26:07 And then I'm going to ask you to come up with some for you. Okay. One of mine is, how many times yesterday did you try to prove you were right when it wasn't worth it? You know, I almost never scored a zero my whole life. So you, this is kind of hard for that old professor not to be right all the time. So you are right, these are what you write down or you have somebody call you to ask you these? How does this work? Yeah, I write them down, and then they talk to me, and they listen to me, read these

Starting point is 00:26:30 every day, and I can score myself. By the way, if your listeners were like all my questions, send me an email, Marshall at Marshall Goldsmith.com, Marshall S2Ls. I'd send them an article about this and my own questions, but the idea is you write your own questions. Another one is, how many angry or destructive comments that I make about people yesterday? Or did I say or do something less for my wife, my son, my daughter, son-in-law, grandkids? just a bunch of questions about life.

Starting point is 00:26:55 How much do you weigh? My friend Jim Moore does this would tell you it saved his life. One of his questions was, are you updated on your physical exam? First 90 days he did this, he said, no. And then he said,

Starting point is 00:27:06 I've got to get the dumb exam or quit asking. He got the dumb exam. The doctor said, you have cancer. Now, he's fine, but the doctor said, had you waited seven months,

Starting point is 00:27:14 you'd be dead. Well, he knew he should have got a physical exam, but just didn't do it. Hold a mirror in your face every day. It's hard to hide. Now, Ryan, what's a good question for you? day you should challenge yourself with. How many times did I complain today? That's a good one.

Starting point is 00:27:28 Yeah. How many times did I speak negatively about somebody else behind their back? That's a terrible thing to do. But I think, unfortunately, or you get caught up and have you ever been around other people who do that and then you find yourself basically mimicking what they do because it's comfortable to do, you know, just. It's in my book. What got you here? Well, did you hear. I talk about that. Right. Being around people. are negative, you start mimicking their behavior. Exactly. And so I think the question is, and I like to ask

Starting point is 00:27:59 myself this, I said, who are my five? Meaning who are the five people that I spend the most time with? Because I know I'm going to become the average of those people. So that's part, Marshall, that's part of the reason why I do this podcast, because I want those five or a way

Starting point is 00:28:15 I want to create and manifest these types of conversations that you and I are having right now with the greatest coach in the world. I'm doing that. as we speak. And so it's impossible for me not to at least take something from this, this dialogue between you and me that's going to make me better than if you and I had never spoken. And so that's, that's another reason that I love doing this podcast is because I feel like I'm raising that average every time I have a quality conversation with a world class leader. And, and it's, and it,

Starting point is 00:28:45 it's some way, shape, or form helps raise that average. But it, but yeah, I'm super guilty of that. And I hate it. But when I find myself in a situation with someone who's complaining or negative or judging somebody else, and then I do the same thing. Like it really my wife is incredible at not doing that. That's why

Starting point is 00:29:07 she's raised my level. And sometimes I feel like I lower her level when I do those things because maybe I heard a friend or somebody complaining and I start doing it. It's really bothersome. Well, if you evaluate yourself every day, you'll get a lot better at not doing it.

Starting point is 00:29:22 Yeah. I think that's the key because instead of evaluating yourself sometimes or not necessarily consistently and proactively thinking about it and doing it, you just do it every once in a while and that's not enough. Now, the other thing is you want some free coaching from me? Yes. One thing you said, never say again. Okay. As long as you say, I have this problem, you will probably continue to have that problem. Hmm, okay. You know.

Starting point is 00:29:50 What did I even say that? I don't even know what I said that. too. You just talked about this. You know, like I complain or I do these comment things, right? Right. Here's what you're going to say. Say, I used to do that. You used to do that, okay? You used to do that. See, you don't have to keep doing that in the future, but as long as you kind of imply that's who you are, then it's harder to change. Just from a psychology perspective, that's imprint in your brain almost like that's the type of person that you are. Exactly, exactly. And so you put it in the past to say that's something I used to do.

Starting point is 00:30:24 I'm not going to do that anymore. Yeah. How do you, like how good are you at doing this? I know you have help, you have somebody call, you have coaching. Is it a struggle or are you getting, are you much better at now after years and years of practice? Oh, much better after years and years of practice and it's a struggle. Okay. Both, both of the above.

Starting point is 00:30:45 I think sometimes hearing that it's a struggle for the world's, greatest makes, I don't know, makes people feel a little bit better. Well, you know, we all, we all can improve. Yeah. And, you know, we can all improve. And I think just realizing it, you know, getting over this egotistical and self-reliant, I have willpower. We overestimate willpower. None of us have that much willpower.

Starting point is 00:31:13 And when we say, you know what, it's okay to need help. My friend Alan Molloy goes to Fort. and he says the company's losing $17 billion. So he says to the top 16 leaders all right let's pick your top five priorities red yellow green green we're on plan

Starting point is 00:31:29 yellow I'm not on plan to have a strategy to get there and red I'm not on plan and have no strategy I'm lost. The first meeting 16 leaders five priorities red yellow green 80 green everything is green company's losing 17 billion dollars

Starting point is 00:31:44 so Alan said you know it's funny everything's that means we're on plan and we're losing $17 billion. I guess the plan must be to lose at least $17 billion. That's where we're going here. Let's go do it again. Finally, Mark Field stands up and he says, Red. I'm not on plan. I don't know how to get there.

Starting point is 00:32:00 Alan Lolley stands up and applauds. He says, thank you, Mark. Thank you for having the courage to tell the truth. Mark, you're not on plan. You don't know how to get there. He said, it's okay. He said, I'm the CEO of the Ford Motor Company. I know a lot less than you do, and that's okay, too.

Starting point is 00:32:17 We manage hundreds of thousands of people. We can hire people. Let's just go find some help and get the problem solved. Within 10 minutes, the problem was solved. Once they got over that egotistical, I can do everything on my own and have to pretend to be perfect nonsense. Life is a whole lot better. A great writer named Ryan Holiday just wrote a book that's about to come out called Ego is the enemy.

Starting point is 00:32:42 And it talks a lot about, well, he studied people in history of how, ego can be such a damaging, debilitating part of our society. And it seems like that feels like a theme in our conversation here through roughly, what, 30 minutes today, Marshall is that the ego of people not willing to, the other part of what guy here won't get you there was interesting is that when people are successful, none of them will admit that there might have been a little bit of luck involved. Like every time that they've been successful, it's because they've grinded and they've worked and they've done all these great things. And I think that's part of that's interesting too is that 100% of the, not 100%, but the majority of them, the ones that won't get there, so to speak, think that they're completely the reason for the success.

Starting point is 00:33:34 That's called a superstition trap. Yep. I behave this way. I am successful. Therefore, I must be successful because I behave this way. wrong. Everyone I work with behaves the way to behave. Everyone is very successful, and they're all successful because they do many things right

Starting point is 00:33:51 in spite of doing things that are dumb. I've never met anybody so wonderful. I had nothing on the in spite of list. Yeah. Can you, I want to implement this real quick, and you were kind of going through it quickly, but when it comes to the Excel spreadsheet and the two minutes per day, can you explain that again so I can, I'm literally, I'm going to implement this today. And do it.

Starting point is 00:34:14 But I want to make sure I heard you write, and everyone listening did as well, because I want to make sure it's implementable to people. So take out the Excel sheet and- On one column, you write down a series of questions. Questions, okay. They represent what's important in your life. In your case, how many times did I complain? Okay. How many destructive comments did I make about other people?

Starting point is 00:34:35 Just how much do I weigh? How many push-ups? How many sit-ups? Did I say her do something less for my wife, son, daughter? how many minutes did I write? Just a series of question every day. Every question has to be answered

Starting point is 00:34:47 with yes and no or a number. Seven boxes across, one for every day of the week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. And then at the end of the week, you get a report card. Now we're going to give you one nuance to this. I'm going to share my first six questions right now. Which I think are great for everybody.

Starting point is 00:35:04 My first six questions all begin with the phrase, did I do my best to? Now, what's great about that, that's called an active question. When it starts with, did I do my best too? It doesn't even say you're successful. All it says is, did I try? Well, my first six questions are, number one,

Starting point is 00:35:21 did I do my best to set clear goals? Number two, did I do my best to make progress toward achieving my goals? Number three, did I do my best to find meaning? Find meaning in life. Number four, did I do my best to be happy? Number five, did I do my best to build positive relationships with people? And number six, did I do my best to build positive relationships with people? And number six, did I do my best to be fully engaged?

Starting point is 00:35:43 Did I do my best to be fully engaged? Six basic questions. And we've done some research on this that is amazing. Just by answering these six questions every day, people get huge improvements. If any of your listeners would like to participate, they could send me an email at Marshall at Marshallgoldsmith.com. I'll send them the sixth question test every day for 10 days. We've done this, and the results are amazing. I think 46% of the people 10 days later said better at everything.

Starting point is 00:36:12 75% said it got better at four out of the six. 94% said I got better at least one. About 6% stayed the same and 0.70% get worse. Why, every day these questions give me to focus not on what I cannot change. They give me to focus on what I can change. And the one thing in life I can always be responsible for is that question that begins with, did I do my best? So there are yes, no questions.

Starting point is 00:36:37 I just wrote them down and I'm going to... No, no, I do it one to ten. Okay. I was going to say, because a yes note would be kind of hard. That was going to be my next question was... No, one to ten. I use a one to ten scale. Okay, because I was going to say,

Starting point is 00:36:49 find meaning like, uh, like I'm not sure if that's a yes or no, so it's probably helpful that it's on a one to ten scale. Yeah, I use the scale for everything. Okay, and then you just add it up and that becomes how you're... At the end of the week, I get a report card. Yeah, okay. Just doing it every day is a great discipline, though. Right. It's like journaling or any discipline that you have. We've talked a lot about morning routines, things of that nature. So I'm going to be one of those people emailing you, even though I've already done that, just to be a part of whatever group it is here with everyone else at a learning leader show. And anyone else who wants to do that, I love to hear from you too because I want to see, Marshall, this is what I love about this is when there's specific practices that change behavior for the better. And when I get emails from people that tell me that something,

Starting point is 00:37:36 something, whether I said or typically a guest like you, has said that has helped change their life? I mean, I don't know. I mean, about you, you've been changing lives for a very long time. I have to believe what's the feeling like when you, even one at a time, when people tell you how you've changed their life, like how does it affect you? To me, that's what's important in life. As I've grown older, you know, I'm not going to cure cancer, save the world for democracy, or I've learned most of these big things I'm not going to do. So now I've become much simpler. I just want to help people have a little better life and people around them have a little

Starting point is 00:38:12 better life. I figure if I do that, I'm declaring victory here. And as I'm older, my level of aspiration has gone down and down and down, but my level of impact is going up and up and up. Why? I quit focusing on what I cannot change and just focus on what I can change. And if one listener sent me an email and said, you know, my life is a little better because of you. This conversation is worthwhile to me. Do you get a lot of those every day?

Starting point is 00:38:41 Fortunately, I do. I figure you would. And that's pretty great. So going back, I just got a couple more thoughts. This just came to my mind. When you, because I'm again fascinated by the fact that you don't charge people unless they have, basically you're graded by them to make sure that you've been successful. How many times have you worked with somebody for an extended of time and you've not gotten paid because it wasn't a success. Not too many, but it used to be more. I mean, after you do it 39 years, you get a good feel for it. But not so many, but occasionally.

Starting point is 00:39:18 And if I ever don't get paid, the problem is always the same. My own ego. I get egotistical enough to believe I could save people that didn't want to be saved. And basically what I've learned is my whole job is picking great customers. One of my best clients said, if you pick the right customer, your coaching process will always work. If you pick the wrong customer, your coaching process will never work. So there are certain people that don't want to be saved. What characteristics do those people have?

Starting point is 00:39:47 What do they share? Well, they're not necessarily bad people. They just don't want to invest the time and energy to get better. And it's okay. I'm not here to judge. I mean, there's a million things you can do with your life. and some leaders don't want to change their leadership behavior. Well, if they don't, that's fine, except don't work with me because I don't get paid.

Starting point is 00:40:08 So let's say, what's the typical length of your coaching with somebody? 18 months. 18 months. So what do you get paid after 18 months of coaching with somebody when it works really well? No, $250,000. Okay. And is that, do you just get a check or is that like paid throughout the 18 months? No, no.

Starting point is 00:40:29 I get to check at the end. Wow. Okay. That's incredible. How many coaching clients do you currently have right now? I'd say about 10. Okay. So they're all in the midst of that 18-month journey, I assume. They're not all starting and stopping at the same time. Exactly. Okay. So you always have something going. What's the typical day like for you? It's varied because I do three different things. So I do speaking. I do coaching and I do writing. So today, I'm going to be meeting with all my coaching clients in a few minutes.

Starting point is 00:41:00 I'm going to say goodbye to you in a couple of minutes. Go see one of my coaching clients. She's the head of a hedge fund, a wonderful person. Then after that, I am going to possibly go see the CEO of a big company here in Chicago. I'm in Chicago right now. Then at the end of the day, I get to go see my grandchildren. Nice. I love it, man.

Starting point is 00:41:20 That's nice. Yeah, it is. This has been great, Marshall. I really appreciate it. I don't know, the energy you bring to it. and the value is unmatched, man. It's great. So I really appreciate it.

Starting point is 00:41:29 One more question. That's around, I'm very appreciative of the fact that we've got connected. And David Allen was nice enough to do that. When you first saw the phrase learning leader, what popped in your mind immediately? What popped in my mind is the leaders that I work with who are learning leaders, like my friends Francis and Alan that I mentioned, who are just role models. for this. That's what popped in my mind. Okay. I really appreciate it. And where would you send everyone to find more about you online?

Starting point is 00:42:04 Just go to www. Marshall Goldsmith.com, Marshall S2S. I give everything away. All my material, my copy share, download, duplicate, using church charity nonprofit. You go to YouTube. You can go to my YouTube site, 100-something videos online. It's all free. Appreciate it, ma'am. And look forward to continuing our dialogue, as we continue to progress. Thanks so much for being here, Marshall. Thank you. All right.

Starting point is 00:42:31 This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to Learning Leadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on The Learning Leader Show.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 131: Marshall Goldsmith – The #1 Leadership & CEO Coach In The World

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