The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 136: Derek Coburn – Networking Is Not Working

Episode Date: June 26, 2016

Episode 136: Derek Coburn – Networking Is Not Working Derek Coburn is the author of the #1 Amazon bestseller, "Networking Is Not Working: Stop Collecting Business Cards and Start Making Meaningful Connections." Derek is the CEO and co-founder (along with his wife, Melanie) of CADRE—an un-networking community in Washington, DC—serving CEOs and business leaders, and has hosted numerous bestselling authors and thought leaders at their YOUniversity events. He began his professional journey as a financial advisor in 1998 and has been a partner at Washington Financial Group for 15 years. Derek lives in Washington, DC with his wife Melanie, two sons and pit bull, Bodie. You can connect with Derek on his website and on Twitter at @cadredc. Episode 136: Derek Coburn – Networking Is Not Working Subscribe on iTunes  or Stitcher Radio The Learning Leader Show "Derek Coburn is a literal master at networking and human relations." Marcus Sheridan, The Sales Lion In This Episode, You Will Learn: A willingness to be wrong… Curiosity/asking questions, and willing to get feedback leads to sustained excellence The problem with being surrounded by "Yes Men" Read: Persuadable-Great -  How Great Leaders Change-Their Minds to Change the World The importance of curating who is at an event and more importantly, who is NOT there – Keep The Takers OUT The core mission of Cadre Building a network of Givers The blueprint for how everyone can do this Networking – "The intersection of client appreciation and business development" Start hosting small events first "Be Nucleate" – The center of the group Grading your business, your relationships, and yourself – We riffed live on this and it was very interesting.  Being a learning leader means surrounding yourself with people who are constantly growing, learning, improving, and willing to question everything  "We prevent cheeseballs who want to sling business cards." Continue Learning: Follow Derek on Twitter: @cadredc Read: Networking Is Not Working Read: Persuadable-Great -  How Great Leaders Change-Their Minds to Change the World To Follow Me on Twitter: @RyanHawk12 You may also like these episodes: Episode 001: How To Become A Master Connector W/ Jayson Gaignard From MasterMind Talks Episode 078: Kat Cole – From Hooters Waitress To President of Cinnabon Episode 082: Dan Pink – The Science of Motivation, Legendary Writer & Ted Talk Episode 086: Seth Godin – How To Become Indispensable & Build Your Tribe Did you enjoy the podcast? If you enjoyed hearing Derek Coburn on the show, please don't hesitate to send me a note on Twitter or email me. Episode edited by the great J Scott Donnell   Bio From DerekCoburn.com Derek Coburn is the author of the #1 Amazon bestseller, "Networking Is Not Working: Stop Collecting Business Cards and Start Making Meaningful Connections." Derek is the CEO and co-founder (along with his wife, Melanie) of CADRE—an un-networking community in Washington, DC—serving CEOs and business leaders, and has hosted numerous bestselling authors and thought leaders at their YOUniversity events. He began his professional journey as a financial advisor in 1998 and has been a partner at Washington Financial Group for 15 years. Derek lives in Washington, DC with his wife Melanie, two sons and pit bull, Bodie. You can connect with Derek on his website and on Twitter at @cadredc.

The key to networking, the key to meeting more prospective clients that could be a great fit for your business was really about curating who was there. And more importantly, like who you're keeping out. So, you know, when I started doing this for my wealth management business, it was 20 to 25 people. I wasn't charging for it. It was really to support that business indirectly, but primarily it was to find ways to add even more value for my existing clients. I started figuring some of this stuff out and realized, you know, hey, there are a lot of groups out there that promise referrals, that promise new business. You know, what if we started an organization that first and foremost centered around attracting people that were givers,

attracting people that were successful enough that they really could authentically focus on meeting other people, learning about them, and how they could add value for them, what would that look like. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to the Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. Hey guys, it's Ryan Update in regards to the Facebook group we've set up. I'm so happy to see the response that we've gotten from so many great fellow learning leaders. The conversation and the dialogue has been fantastic, so I'd love to invite

all of you to further the conversation and join us. Simply go to learning leader.com slash group, learning leader.com slash group, and we will add you to the community. And you can join like-minded individuals to discuss leadership topics. Argue a little bit. Maybe we can disagree. I think that's how we all learn. But it's been fantastic. so far. I've loved really engaging with you guys, the great listeners of the Learning Leader show. So go to learningleader.com slash group.

We'll add you, and I look forward to talking with you soon. Hey, and welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawke, and thank you so much for being here. Thrilled with tonight's featured leaders with the great Derek Coburn. Derek is the author of the number one Amazon bestseller, networking is not working. Stop collecting business cards and start making meaningful connections. Derek is the CEO and co-founder, along with his wife, Melanie, of

Cadre, which is an un-networking community in Washington, D.C., serving CEOs and business leaders. They have hosted numerous bestselling authors and thought leaders at their events in the D.C. and surrounding areas. A few of the topics we got into. Derek's ability to create a group of givers, as well as getting rid of the takers. And he gives us practical tips on how All of us can do this regardless of where we live or what our current profession is. And then why business cards are not allowed in his group, followed up by a statement around your life. And your life can change by three things. That's the books you read, the people you meet, and the experiences you have.

Derek and I discussed how that's the model for his business and how he lives this life. And I love the stories he told around that. Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, it's Derek Coburn. All right, Derek, man. I'm pumped to have this one. I have been ever since we sat together night one mastermind talks in Ohio, California, when I think we just immediately clicked. And I appreciate your kind words you shared about the podcast. So I'm really happy to have you on the show.

My first question is around the fact of the people we surround ourselves with. And the fact that you've done an incredible job over the course of your career, of surrounding yourselves with an elite, group of leaders specifically, CEOs, entrepreneurs, people at the top of their game. I'm curious from your perspective, what are some of the common characteristics those people all seem to share? Well, thanks, Ryan. I'm thrilled to be chatting with you. Ohio feels like forever ago, even though it was just a couple of weeks. I would say that maybe it's who I attract, you know, and maybe it's self-selecting to a certain extent. But I

feel like, I feel like one of the primary characteristics, the people that I'm around, the people that I view is successful, is their willingness to be wrong. Their willingness to ask questions to get feedback and to change. And, you know, I think there are a lot of people out there running businesses. They're surrounded by yes men or yes women who are validating what, you know, what they're doing. And they're not stopping to question. They're not looking for They're not looking for new ways where they could improve their situation. My friend Al Pinnampali wrote a really good book recently called Persuatable. And the idea behind it is, you know, how persuadable are you?

Are you open to advice? Are you open to hearing things that you might not want to hear? And, you know, so, you know, that could just be because I'm the kind of guy that likes giving people, maybe unsolicited advice where I have their best intentions in mind. But I'm not afraid to hurt their feelings. but I found that that's one of the primary things I see in a lot of the people that I that I hang out with. When you think of the phrase willingness to be wrong, who's the first person or two that comes to mind? Hmm.

Williness to be wrong. Donald Trump. I'm just kidding. Let me think here. Hiller Clint. You do live in D.C. So for those who don't know, you're sitting right in the middle of all this stuff. completely bipartisan.

Let me see here. Willingness to be wrong. The reason I use that phrase is because that's the first thing that came out of your mouth when we talk about sustain excellence, success. And I completely agree. I love that answer. It's an original answer, but it makes so much sense to me because I just think of the greatest leaders I've ever been around.

And they have this, they have confidence, but they have this really great sense of humility about them. they're great listeners. And I found that the people who are great listeners who do have a sense and a sort of humility about them are absolutely willing to use a couple phrases. One is, I don't know. And another one is, wow, that's a great point. I might have gotten that wrong. And I really admire people who are willing to do that. So that's why it made me think of it when you said it. Yeah, I would say, you know, somebody came to mind while you were chatting there. And I really like, I really like the way James Altiture models his life.

And I was listening to one of his recent podcasts the other day where he was talking about how he, he's sort of bouncing from one Airbnb to another and staying at friends places. And it's his take on minimalism. And, you know, what, but he's always reinventing himself. And he's always going to say like, hey, I tried this one thing. I experimented with it. And it didn't work or it did work. and then sort of taking the best from those experiments,

building them into what he does on an ongoing basis and then trying new things going forward. So I always like sort of seeing what he's up to. And he definitely is someone who is willing to be wrong about something and take a new approach. He's definitely an original. And he beats to his own drum, which I love his willingness to do that.

It was cool to get the opportunity to meet him and speak to him out in Ohio where we were. Mastermind talks for those who, did not listen to that episode with Jason Gannard that I just had. Derek and I, that's where we originally met. But Derek, when somebody walks up to you, and I actually did this to you, I believe, that first night when we were out there together, and they say, Derek, hey, what do you do? How do you respond? Well, you know, I think it's interesting in the context of a place like mastermind talks where you know people there have been vetted. You know people there are not looking to sell you anything and you're going to have an opportunity to interact with them on an ongoing basis.

You know, I don't think that, you know, I don't remember how I answered that question because I could answer in a couple of different ways. I'm a financial advisor and I own a wealth management firm. I've been in that industry since 98. I run cadre with my wife, support about, you know, 90 to 100 CEOs and entrepreneurs in D.C. I wrote a book. So I, you know, I will, I'll tend to throw one of them out there. And then after I learn more about what the other person does, maybe if they're interested, focus more on the thing that potentially could be the most valuable to them. The first thing that piqued my interest when we talked was the fact of was cadre. And quite frankly, well, actually, you know what?

I would love for you describe what cadre is, C-A-D-R-E. Could you just really go maybe into more detail than you did when we spoke because I'm fascinated by this group that you've put together? No, sure. So you're really more interested in Cadre than hearing about the investment portfolios that I set up for my clients? Yes, a thousand percent. All right. So Cadre sort of, you know, when I grew, I was growing my wealth management business and I sort of abandoned traditional networking in favor of hosting a lot of smaller curated events that centered around my best clients and people that they, in, invited to join or people they introduced to something along the lines. And, you know, I, I realized that the key to, the key to networking, the key to meeting more prospective clients that that could be a great fit for your business was, was really about curating who was there. And more importantly,

like, who you're keeping out. So, you know, when I started, when I started doing this for my wealth management business, I wasn't, it was 20 to 25 people. I wasn't. wasn't charging for it, it was really to support that business indirectly, but primarily it was to find ways to add even more value for my existing clients. But I started figuring some of this stuff out and realized, you know, hey, there are a lot of groups out there that promise referrals, that promise new business. You know, what if we started an organization that first and foremost centered around attracting people that were givers, attracting people. Attracting people. that that were successful enough that they really could authentically focus on meeting other people

learning about them and how they could add value for them. What would that look like? So, you know, it started off by me going and my wife going to a handful of people that we had a relationship with and asking them what they thought and asking them if they would support us and relying on them to bring the right people into the fold, if you will. And we weren't sure if it was going to work. It sounds great in theory, but there would probably still be people there who, you know, would put on a front that would pretend to go along with this because it would get them a new client or get them closer to something they wanted. But, you know, it wasn't a perfect process early on, but it was pretty good. And for example, we had to proactively remove 25 people in the first year for a variety of reasons. We haven't maintained that clip because we've gotten a lot better at vetting people on the front end.

Once people know that they're around people, they're around others that are not focused on themselves and they really are interested in supporting them. Everyone lets their guard down. And ironically enough, without us even promoting it, it's led to a lot of our members hiring each other, referring them probably much more quickly than you would see if they had met in a more traditional setting. So what's cadre like today? So cadre today, I would say, you know, we are focused on things. three primary things, delivering content connections and facilitating collaboration. So three Cs.

And when we first started, we never thought we were going to do any larger events. We were hosting, I think we hosted 75 roundtable lunches and smaller type events in the first year, because we weren't sure we could carry that culture or carry, carry that vibe into a larger setting, especially if it was going to include non-members. But by the ninth or 10th month, we decided to try it out. And we still have certain things in place to prevent, you know, the cheeseballs that want to sling business cards and talk about how awesome their service is from coming. But now we're doing these larger events about five times a year. And then we're sprinkling in a few other formats as well. But whereas when we started, we were attracting people right or wrong that we're looking at it more as a networking

play and now that sort of takes care of itself and we're attracting more people that are interested in being exposed to great people and great ideas and great speakers what do you guys charge for it uh well the way it is now the way it's been for a little bit is three grand it's a three thousand hour one-time fee and then 500 a month and then the 500 a month is month to month and initially when we started we didn't have an upfront fee and then we slowly built up to to three grand. But the month to month, which I'm borrowing from my wealth management business, this idea of recurring revenue where the pressure is on us to always make sure we're delivering value so that people will continue to pay. But at the same time, if someone doesn't feel like

it's a great fit for them, if they no longer have the time to be engaged or to contribute to other people, they're not locked into like an annual contract. They can sort of come and go as please. So again, I think it reinforces the idea that, you know, every single month when our members show up and get together, they know they're sitting across the table from someone that could have just as easily last month said, you know, this isn't for me. I don't want to do this anymore, but they're there because they really want to be there and they're there for the same reasons. And that's quite an investment. I mean, the responsibility you must feel, I would imagine, because you have, what, 90 to 100 members? Is that what you said? Yeah. We just did a mini-pur,

just closer to 90. Okay, so you're getting $40, $50,000 a month that you're making from this. And I would imagine, though, you're spending, I don't know your margins, but a certain amount to put on the events, to pay for the speakers, to pay for all of the stuff that goes along with events. Like, what's your, like, what are your margins from that perspective? Looking at strictly as a business, not as. Yeah. So, you know, so we have some members that are founding members, like some of the people that I mentioned to you earlier, some founding members and charter members. members that really helped us with the vision and helped us, you know, drawing on the back of napkins

early on. And so there's a handful of people that are not paying because they brought so many people in. And there's a handful of people that are that are paying 250. But the majority are paying 500. And, you know, I would say that from a margin standpoint, and it also ties in with with how we maintain, I think how we maintain a really high level of quality. Because a lot of people will ask, look, everyone says they have great people. Everyone says they, they vet to make sure that there aren't, you know, there aren't any shady people that are going to be, you know, soliciting other members. How do you do it? And it took me a while to figure out, but I realized the answer is pretty simple. And the answer is that the revenue that I generate

from my wealth management business allows me to sort of be indifferent to any one person's 500 bucks a month. And it works the other way as well. I mean, I quickly realized the ancillary benefit of having two businesses going running side by side is that, you know, I had the courage and the confidence in a way that I didn't have with just one business to say, you know what, you're not going to be a good fit and that's okay. And so I think that from a money standpoint, you know, we are not, we are not, you know, hovering over the balance sheet the way that we would maybe do if it was our only business because it's more of a, it's, even though we pour a lot into it, it's more of a passion project, right?

It's not, we're not doing it to make money. And I think the flip side of that is a lot of people ask if we're going to scale. And, you know, on one hand, I think this model could easily work in other locations. But it's like, how do we find the right person in each market? I'm not, I'm not worried about finding people that are wired like us. I'm worried about finding people that it wouldn't be their primary source of revenue. And they would still have the time to really put a lot into it. and not feel conflicted or feel like they have to bring someone on that's not a good fit

because they need to earn a certain income from doing this. Yeah, I mean, I was fascinated by you describing it to me when we were there and even learning more about it. It made me think of Adam Grant's book originals. A lot of the originals actually are quite conservative and some of the best entrepreneurs are as well because if you're not solely worried about the money, it takes a huge burden off of your shoulders to think only about the quality. And in your case, that's people deciding who should, and more importantly, who should not be in those rooms. Because I guess I think you know way better than even I do.

When I go to an event and it's full of people that I might not necessarily want to be around, I will probably never go back. And the inverse of that is something like, probably like I'm getting. the cadre events and certainly like Mastermind talks where we can't wait to go back. So how often do you guys have events and what's the typical event look like? Yeah, and I will say, you know, I'm a big fan of Adam Grants. I mean, he gave me a nice testimonial for my book and I and I do and I do agree with you, but I think it, it, it, it even more ties in with give and take because we have built a community

of givers for givers and, and you know, this idea that people who are wired like that, it's, it's easy to get burnt out. If you are, if you have a giving mentality and you really do enjoy looking for ways to help other people, but you're around matchers and takers, it can burn out pretty quickly. So the idea and, you know, this, we launched before give and take, you know, even came out. But this idea was we want to build a community forgivers, like literally a safe place where, you know, you could focus on being your, you know, your true self. That's how you roll and know that you're around other people who, who are not going to take advantage of you, who are wired. the same way. And, you know, to answer your question in terms of events, I mean, we,

we have at least one thing going on every month. So the three primary formats we have are the university spelled YOU University, and those are where we bring in New York Times best-selling authors. We allow our members to bring guests. That's our larger event with more of a focus on the content. We have member-led presentations where we have a lot of, a lot of members who are, you know, best-selling authors in their own rights. A lot of them you met at Mastermind Talks, you know, Yannick and Kathy Alarado and Joe McClinsky and they have presented to our group in the past. And so it's more of like an unplug style.

And when we have a member present, we always have them do two times each month. So in D.C., we want to give people the option because we're close to Maryland, we're close to Virginia. We want to give people two different dates to choose from, in case they're out of town or in case, you know, one day they have a conflict and make it more likely they'll be able to come, but also create a smaller event. So there's 40 people showing up instead of 90 and it allows our members more time to catch up. And then we still run the roundtable lunches and what we call our breaking bread dinners where, or lunches where we, you know, we put people

into groups of like five or 10. That's where everyone can roll up their sleeves and talk about their business and what a good client for them looks like and something they need help with right now. And, you know, it's not as sexy as the bigger ones, but that's where a lot of the magic happens, if you will, in terms of members collaborating on things together. So about right now, I think people listening are really intrigued and they're thinking, at least I would be thinking, and I am thinking, how can I do this? How could I do something like this? Because I'm, because to put myself in a position to be at the center and the facilitator of all

of this happening has to be an incredible feeling. I know Jason's talked about that and you're doing this. So I'll just use it for this example because I think getting practical and real life is what's interesting and people seem to like that as well when I get emails from them. And so I'll ask it this way, how could I do something like this here in Dayton, Ohio or Cincinnati, Ohio, or even Columbus, Ohio, right where I live here and without the fact that I am not a financial advisor, I don't have a client-based build-up at all like you had a little bit of a base to get started. So what are some of the tips you would give to somebody like me to do something like this? Sure.

So I would say that the first thing that I just want to clarify is that I made a decision when I started Cadre that I was not going to talk about my wealth management business inside of Cadre. And in fact, there are three other financial advisors that are more or less my competition on the street that are members. And they benefit from being a member. They've had some other members work with them. And so I don't think that this was never intended and I never wanted it to be perceived this way. It was never intended as a way for me to sort of get a roundabout way of getting more clients. So I don't think that what you do matters that much. I do think that having a handful of really good local clients matters.

And, you know, I tell people all the time what, you know, what I wrote about in my book on networking was what worked for me and what's worked for a lot of other people that I know. and the common threads are, you know, you have a local-based business and you have recurring revenue, meaning that you have clients that are paying you on a monthly or annual basis, or you have the opportunity for them to renew or to do business with them, you know, every year or every couple of years. Because my definition of networking, not my literal definition, but the way I view networking, it's sort of the intersection of client appreciation and business development. It's hosting events and putting things together that are first and foremost meant to deepen the relationships you have with your existing clients. So they feel even better about working with you and continue to pay for your services.

But then a level or two below that, it's the ability to leverage these events is a way to meet a lot of people who could become clients that you probably would have never met before. Because if your clients were to say, hey, I want to introduce you my financial advisor. He's great. They may say, well, I already have somebody. am happy with that. I don't want to meet him. But if they say there's a really great wine tasting coming up next week and they serve ridiculous wines and there's going to be a lot of really cool people there, then they might go to that. And now all of a sudden, I have an opportunity to engage with someone and I'm not selling. I'm not pitching anything at the event, but I'm still

getting on the radar of people that otherwise, you know, they would still just not even know I was around. So I would say that when people ask me like, hey, you know, if I'm looking for a job, what should I do? And it's like, I don't know because I never experienced. that myself. But I think I certainly think that before you could build like a cadre in Dayton, Ohio, that you would have to start hosting smaller events, you know, either like roundtable lunches or mastermind dinners or something like that until you felt like you had a good core of 10, 15, 20 people that that were sort of exactly the kinds of people that you wanted to be around and then leverage them and their networks as a way to to build it to something bigger than. that. Well, yeah, it's just like anything else. That makes a lot of sense. You have to start, there was a period of time when Cadre was, as you mentioned, a much smaller group and it's slowly grown with quality and you've had to unfortunately toss people out, although fortunately because that makes the group stronger if you make sure the right people are in there and more

importantly the wrong people are out. I saw, I was watching the video for Cadre and it's a great video on your website. Cadre DC.com. and Yannick says something that's interesting. I think it's a spin-off from a John Wooden quote, but basically your life can change by doing three things, the books that you read, the people that you meet, and the experiences that you have. Is that something that you live by? Yeah, absolutely, man. And, you know, and I think that's also a good, we've, you know, one of the questions we have in our application is sort of centers around, you know, what, what someone's business goals are. And, you know, if they want to grow 10 or 15 percent

each year, then that's really not going to be a great fit for us. I mean, we want our speakers. We've never really had a motivational speaker. The closest thing we had to that was Lewis Howells a couple months ago. And he, you know, even made it a little more tactical than he usually does. But I want to bring strong content and actionable ideas to the table. And I think the best success stories, in my opinion, that have happened inside of Cadre, have been when, you know, the CEO of an IT company that serves, that serves credit union,

gets a great idea from, you know, from Marcus Sheridan, you know, about, you know, content marketing, inbound marketing and applies it to his business without even really hiring him and adds $5 million to his bottom line as a result of that. So, you know, I think that that's really one of the things that we're looking for when vetting new members, their desire to learn and get new information. And I think, too, people are busy, right? And I always sort of feel like when we bring in, we bring in these speakers who are normally authors, and it's usually around their book, so we give out their book, they're getting the one-hour keynote version to where if they want to read it, they can, but I don't know how many people would sit down and read all of these

books if they didn't have an opportunity to hear the speaker present the ideas as well. Speaking of books, you are also an author, number one Amazon bestseller, networking is not working. Stop collecting business cards and start making meaningful connections. Real quick, before we get to your book, the fact that your title says stop collecting business cards just made me think back to our time in Mastermind talks when there's 150, 160 of us out there. And I didn't see a business card. Did not see one there. We certainly would pass along information via Facebook or the Rolodex that Jason passed out. But that was the first event I've gone to personally that there weren't.

There was not a single business card that I saw. Yeah, I mean, people and we've been saying for ever since we started, I mean, we. our members all know it and when a non-member sort of comes to a larger event and they hand out a business card or two, even if it's done in an authentic way, they sort of get, they sort of get like a look like, oh, put that away. Not that we're going to kick them out or embarrass them publicly, shame them publicly. But yeah, I mean, I think that there's a certain connotation that comes with handing out a business card. And look, I had an amazing business card. Joey Coleman designed our business card. you know, I got a number of them when I, when we first launched cadre, I received raving compliments about it all the time.

But when I ran out, I was just like, you know what? Like, I don't think it's all that necessary. And if I meet somebody and I think I can help them or I think there's a good reason to follow up, like I'm going to remember their name and their company and I'm going to find them. And I don't need a, I don't need a business card when I'm out meeting people. So I've sort of, as much as I love my business card, I've sort of changed my stand. on it. And I think because I have this book now, you know, if people feel like it's odd or if people feel like I'm blowing them off, I can just point to that and it validates it a little bit. So I think you mentioned to me prior that the publisher or at least somebody involved

with your book was not necessarily happy with your title that its networking is not working. Why did you decide on that title? Well, it was one of my good buddies. Most of the people, most of the people really liked it. But he just said, why would I ever buy a book? My one friend said, why would I ever buy a book to, you know, the promise of telling me something's not working? And I think that obviously the subtitle captures, you know, sort of the essence of the book. But I always like the title and I had a handful of people that I have a lot of respect and admiration for early on that said that they loved the title as well. So I was I was unwavering and maybe there are some people that don't like it. but I'm pretty happy that I went with it.

I like it a lot. It definitely piqued my interest. Yeah, I remember downloading it right after I got back after talking with you. So why write that book? It's obviously done extremely well. Why what made you spurred you to want to put that out? Yeah, so it's interesting. You know, I guess I felt for a long time that a lot of what I talk about in the book,

which is what I implemented in my wealth management practice were pretty basic things. And they are pretty basic things. And that made me think that it was likely a lot of people were already doing them. And so I got the idea. So a little bit of background, I would say about six years ago, seven years ago, I started taking ADD medication for the first time in my life. And I was diagnosed when I was a kid. I'm really glad that my parents didn't put me on medication.

when I was a kid, but I felt like it would help me as an adult. We were getting ready to have my first kid. I was sort of all over the place. I had a lot of browsers open. I was making a lot of good stuff happened in 20 minutes out of each day. And that was all I needed. And it sort of created this false sense of productivity in my mind. So I tell you this because I had only read like one or two books cover to cover by the time I graduated college.

And while I liked reading, I could only read a handful of pages at a time. And the third day that I took the ADD medication, we had a flight to Jacksonville for a wedding, and I sat in my seat the entire time and read a 300-some-page book cover to cover. It was the first time I did that. And I started putting back, you know, on average, more than a book a week. And, you know, I got a 420 on the verbal section of my SATs. So I, you know, writing a book was never even something I had thought about until probably just before I wrote it. It wasn't, I just always assumed, you're like, are you kidding me?

Like if somebody said I should write a book, I would say I've only read like five books. I would never write a book. So, you know, but I guess it was just after hearing enough people sort of view some of the stuff that I was doing as like an aha moment for them, it made me realize that, hey, this is something that could probably help a lot of people. So I did it really as a selfless act. I mean, I don't have anything. You know, at the time, certainly didn't have anything to sell. I just felt like it was something that I had to do. And once you get that in, you sort of like have to do it.

You know, I was looking through a lot of the different interesting parts and reviewing my notes. Use a phrase called nucleate. And did I pronounce that right? Yep. So describe to me why. people should strive to be the nucleate, meaning the, I assume, the center of the group. Yeah, so look, I use an acronym in my book to sort of walk people through, walk readers through the steps for how to spend their time in lieu of going to networking events.

And, you know, I ended up using connector, but only with one end instead of two ends. And that's the reason why, because I can't, you know, we had to use frigging new. nucleate for one of the ends. So it was like, you know, we knew there wasn't, there wasn't going to be a great option for a second end. But yeah, so it's all about, look, you at this point in my process, you've, you've started bringing people together. You've started to create some, some intimate settings for them to interact and you've made some, some connections. But, you know, what I found is that a lot of people drop the ball unintentionally. You may make an email connection. I would make an email connection to two people.

and one of them wanted to do business with the other, and the other person didn't get back to them. And it was because, you know, the email had slipped through the cracks or maybe something that wasn't, you know, as bad as that. So I think in following up and in finding ways that that are above and beyond sort of pinging them, like, hey, it's been two weeks. I'm just checking in to see how things are going. But finding ways that are going to add value and constantly staying in front of them to remind them that you're thinking about them and thinking about how you can, you can, you can, help them in their business is really what that is all about. Why is lunch the most important meal of the day? Yeah, so I am, I am a fan of lunches for a couple of reasons.

One is a lot of people, a lot of people in my world, and at the time, you know, it was more CEOs in my wealth management world. You know, they have things going on in the evening time. And it's how I am to this day. I mean, I don't really want to do much, if anything, during the evening because that's when I'm hanging out with my boys. And I really like doing that. So lunchtime is a time of the day where most people are going to be free and available. And if there's not something already on their calendar, they can make it happen.

When I run these unnetworking lunches, I set them up so they are Dutch street, meaning that there's going to be separate checks. Lunch is a lot less expensive than dinner. and you typically, because it happens sometimes, I'll say typically don't have to worry about people drinking to where the bill gets confusing. And, you know, I also feel like my purpose in running them at the time and still sometimes within cadre, it's more about, you know, business.

It's like, let's learn about each other. Let's learn how we can support each other. And I think that that focus and showing up while you're still in your business attire, even though we really encourage people to wear to wear jeans and not ties. But you're sort of in the zone, whereas at the end of the day, a lot's happened. You might want a glass of wine to relax. You're not showing up in the same way that you would during lunchtime. But look, I think that there's pros and cons to both.

I mean, there are other times where people drinking wine takes a conversation in a much better direction than it would have gone in if there was not alcohol involved. How many lunches per week are you with somebody, whether it's a client, potential client, client, a cadre member versus yourself? Hardly ever. Hardly ever. Which one? So even though I said that, so even though I said hardly ever, even though I, even though I, that the title of that chapter in my book is more about the networking, the networking strategy, right? So I'm a big fan of if I'm going to have a lunch with somebody, let's see if we can have it be with four people or five people or in the case of these lunches it was 10 or 12 people.

And look, I love Keith Frazi's book, never eat alone. But, you know, I ended up, the most popular blog that I ever wrote was called, I don't see why we have to meet for lunch. And what happened was when we launched cadre, we had a lot of our members referring potential members to us. And they would send an email, you have to learn more about this. And the person would say, great, can we meet for lunch or coffee so you can tell me more about it? And, you know, I'd always done that with my wealth management business because I had the time

to do it. But now I literally didn't have the time to do it. And, you know, I, that was when I was turned on to Marcus Sheridan, who's since become a cadre member and a really good friend. And he has this term called assignment selling. And assignment selling is where you have someone that wants to do business with you. But because you're busy and you don't have time to meet with everybody that wants to talk with you where they don't know really anything about you or what you do, that you point them to content that you've created. So I need you to look at my website. I need you to review this brochure.

I need you to fill out this form. And that will allow me and you to better gauge if setting time aside to talk with each other or meet with each other something that makes sense. And in Marcus's case, he at the time exclusively owned a swimming pool company. And in 2008, when financing was hard to come by, his clothes ratio, people would call up and say, I'm thinking about buying a pool. He would say, great, I'll come to your house. his clothes ratio was like 10% and oftentimes it wasn't his fault it was they couldn't access the funds or they were better suited for a concrete pool and he only sold fiberglass poles and got to the point where he started blogging and he started producing really good content and anyone that wanted a poll he said you have to review these sections on my website and it got to the point where he knew if somebody probably messing this number up but if somebody looked at 24 pages on his website his clothes ratio would flip and it would go to 90%.

And the content, the key to this is the content really does have to be up front about costs, about who it's a good fit for, who it's not a good fit for. And you want the people that it's not a good fit for to not ask for a phone call, to not ask for a meeting. So we, you know, and what he even says is like, look, you know, the only people that have the ability to be that audacious are the ones that do have a lot of content that they can provide on the front end. because if you don't have that, you have to take a meeting to tell people about your business. So now when we get introduced to people, and this has been the case for a few years, hey, great, thanks for the introduction. We'll check them out, see if they look like they are potentially a good fit. We need to review these three sections of our website and use this form at the bottom

to contact us if you're interested in setting up a phone call. And we strategically place it at the bottom because we want to ensure that they read all the way down. I imagine that 75 plus percent of the people to go to our website will see something like, I have to pay 500 bucks a month to focus on how I can add value for other people and I'm not allowed to pitch my own stuff. Why would I ever join a group like this? And it's like, that's awesome that I didn't have to spend 30 minutes with them over coffee or an hour over lunch talking with them about their business and about my business. Love it, man.

That is a great takeaway. I was furiously writing notes. I'm going to shift gears a little bit, Derek. The interesting part of our time that we were together in Ohio was Philip McCurnan gave a, he's been on my podcast before, but he gave a normal talk for him, which is something that moves people and it makes you think. And he asked us to pair off into twos and to rate ourselves on a 1 to 10 scale on how we are business, relationships, and then self. So those were the three terms, and you and I were paired together

in the room full of 150 plus people. And I was intrigued by your answers, and I assume, are you, you're cool with me sharing this? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Sorry. So you said you were a five in business, a nine in relationships, and a five in self.

These are you grading how you are on a one-day. 10 scale. And I, and we, we, we, we ran out of time because the exercise, well, it ended and we still were talking. And I wanted to, I, I've been meaning to ever since that time we were talking to, to get back to that. And I know this is kind of a little bit different than what we've talked about this entire conversation, but it's interesting to me. So I think it will be the other people too. I'm curious, why 595, when it comes to business relationships and self? Yeah, so I'll answer the fives first. The five for business probably, probably should be a little higher. The reason it's a five is that I have my wealth management business,

I have cadre, I'm getting ready to launch a course on networking that's going to be tied to my book. So I have a lot of different things going on that I am excited about. And, you know, I'm sort of, I'm trying to be patient and I'm trying to see which, which one, I'm waiting for like a good indication of which one deserves even more. more of my attention and energy. So all of my businesses are going well right now. It's the fact that I think the diversity has me more rounded out. But each one has an opportunity, a very specific opportunity at each one that could, that could, you know, be a like a 10x type game changer. And, you know, so on one hand, on one hand, it makes my score right now lower because I know what the potential is. But on the other hand, it's nice to have a couple of different options to invest in

without fully having to invest in one and just cross my fingers and hope it works out. So that's the business. The self, you know, the self, I should probably be higher, right? But I've, you know, Philip's a friend. I've, I've had a lot of interactions with him. We've had him speak at Cadre. I've been on a couple's retreat with him. And after I, before I became super tight with Philip. He, I think it was like, I had already heard him at two mastermind talk events and had, and then Yonik brought him to Aruba for a Maverick event. And he made himself available to talk with people for, you know, 30 minutes, 60 minutes. And, you know, Philip is just so good at, at really sort of getting to the bottom of like what, you know, why someone's stuck and what's something

that they can, they should focus on to unleash more of their potential. And almost immediately, he said me, he said, so on a scale from 1 to 10, how hard are you on yourself? And I said, probably a 10. And he said, I think you're a 17. And he said, here's the problem with that, aside from just being hard on yourself, is that you can't help, but also be that hard on people who are around you when you're that hard on yourself. So you have these very high expectations of yourself. and in turn, that means you have these very high expectations of other people around you that are not fair for them, that are not reasonable or even realistic for them. And then you get upset when they don't meet your expectations. And he's like, sometimes you might get upset and they can see you're upset.

And other times you're upset, but they don't know you're upset. And he said taking it a step further, so sort of like the next layer, which he's like you probably are not aware of at all, It's like then you're getting upset at yourself for getting upset at them for not hitting these unrealistic expectations you had. You know, you had for them. And I was like, whoa, like that totally just that hits it on the head for me. I mean, it gave me so much clarity and gave me a lot to, you know, a lot to think about. So, you know, I would say that if I wasn't a 17 out of 10 in terms of how hard I am on myself, I would probably say I'd probably get myself like an eight for self. but because I am still kind of hard on myself, I give myself a five.

Does that, how does that affect, forgive me if this is too personal, but how does that affect your relationship with your wife? Because that's the person, because I'm thinking of myself here, but this is the person that's the closest to you. It's your best friend. And so typically you're going to have extraordinarily high expectations for that person because of that 17 out of 10, the way you are. I have a very similar makeup.

So that's why I'm asking and I'm curious. Yeah, so, and she's my business partner. But, you know, I, that, that insight helped a lot. I also feel like I've benefited from, you know, the, the ADD medication and I got a little tick up in empathy when I had, when I had kids. Yep. Although I had two boys. I'm sure if I had, if I had a daughter, I would probably, that would have, that would

have helped me even more in that, in that category. Yep. But, but, but yeah. So, you know, look, I've learned to, I've learned to take it easier on myself and buy extension, I'd take it easier on other people. And I also feel like something that I always remind myself of is, you know, almost like the key to success in life is to make sure that, that, you know, people have low expectations of you, right? I always love going into a situation where somebody doesn't know me as opposed to one where I've been lauded and, you know, raved about. And I sort of feel like I

have to live up to it. But no, I mean, look, I feel like, I feel like my relationship, and I get myself a nine because I'm basing that off of the relationship I have with my wife and my kids. And I feel like I have my relationships with other people are pretty good as well. And look, I feel like there, there were times in my life for all three of these categories where I would have said a 10. And it's, it's in realizing what a faux 10 looks like, right? What a false 10. looks like in terms of, okay, I thought it was great, but now I know a lot more and I know better now. I know that it wasn't a 10. And my relationship with my wife especially is one where, you know, eight years ago or 10 years

ago when we were dating and we were engaged, I thought it was a 10. And it wasn't close to a 10. I mean, we, you know, there were a lot of differences in the way that we communicated with each other and how we solve problems. And, you know, we, like, we started going to therapy, like a year or two before we got married to make sure we could figure that part out, which we did. And we still go to this day. I mean, we love it. I mean, I think our relationship is amazing. But, you know, just like I go to events like Mastermind Talks and I read books because I want to get better. I want to get better at everything. I always feel like, you know, let's have this one-hour

week, you know, where we're dedicated to our relationship and talking about what's going on and how we can support each other even more. So, you know, having having been in a point where I thought it was a 10 and realizing it was actually a 5, now I say it's a 9 because I know what what a real nine feels like, if that makes sense. I'm glad you shared. It's interesting. The reason I do it, it's probably more personal than anything because I think it's something I still struggle with in the fact that when you have really high expectations for yourself, the people that are closest to you are probably going to feel that as well. And so I've, you know, everything for me,

it's going relationship-wise extremely well. But that is definitely a part of me that I think is still a work in progress. And so it's good to hear. And I definitely want to talk with you more about that, probably even when we get done with this, because I, it can be tough for people around you when you just have these, I don't know, you have these expectations that probably aren't. aren't even, they're not realistic. But I think that's just how I think about myself as far as what

I want to accomplish and what I want to do and the potential impact I want to have on the world. And that sounds like a really grand statement, but that's just the reality of how I think. And then when you think that way, it projects itself onto the people that you're around the most, which is your family. And so it's interesting to hear you say that. I appreciate you sharing and being honest about it because we're all a work in progress, I think, when it comes at, especially people who are used to sustaining excellence and achieving big things. Yeah. And, you know, like, you know, I focused on my wife there because even though I said initially

my wife and my kids, you know, my wife and I have this foundation, right, to where, you know, it like a lot, a lot would have to happen for, you know, for that to tick down, right? Just because we've got this, we've got this foundation. We've invested the time in how we communicate and sharing a lot of experiences together. So that's got a good foundation. Whereas with the kids, you know, the thing that keeps me up more than anything else by far is sort of like this, this, the idea that there are going to be five or ten different events that happen in our kids' lives when, you know, my kids are six and three. You know, maybe before they're 10 or they're 12. And how we respond and how we act in those moments, you know, science tells us that it's going to contribute to shaping how they are.

as humans and shaping how our future relationship with relationships are going to be in terms of our relationships with each other. And that's the thing. Like there's no amount that you can read, but I just, you know, I really hope that that when those moments happen, because you don't know when they're going to happen and they may be obvious or they may not be obvious at all. I just, I just hope that I get it right. And when I say get it right, that I, that, you know, I, even if my kids don't react well to it, I can look back and say, I'm glad I hand. handled it that way when it happened. I've seen the Instagram and Facebook pictures of you and your kids,

the hockey games look like you're having a great time, man. Yeah, yeah, it's fun. So, yeah, so things are great there, but that's the thing where it doesn't have like that foundation. I think that we can screw up as parents a lot more easily than we can screw up in relationship with our spouse. Yeah, that's a great point. Great point.

Hey, man, I could talk to you all day. I really appreciate this conversation because we want to a number of different places and obviously you brought it completely, and we're going to, we'll keep talking. But I have one last question for you, and you may have heard this before. I know you've listened to the show a little bit, and that's the fact that the reason why I started it and why I do it is because I absolutely love the study of the art and science of leadership. And I'm curious from your perspective when you saw initially the phrase, or the term that I used to title this show,

The Learning Leaders Show, what's the first thought that popped into your mind? The first thought that popped into my mind was it sort of ties into what I said initially. You know, I feel like I'm surrounded by people and I myself am someone who prioritizes learning and growing and constantly improving. And, you know, I think that, like, those are my kind of people. I want to be around people and I want to support people that are leaders, but also the type of people that are willing to sort of question everything and be willing to change their, you know, not only the direction of their business, because I think that that's easier, but even change sort of like their worldview on particular areas. So, you know, that, it resonated really well with me. Is that, am I answering your question?

I love it, man. No, the question is just, is your, yeah, your thought when you heard it. So it's certainly up to you. The other aspect, you mentioned this earlier, and I know we were up against it, but the online course, I heard you say that earlier is something that you're about to do. Can you describe what that will entail and how if there's anyone like me or someone listening that would want to sign up can do that? Yeah, so I am going to be sharing some articles and some tips.

on, you know, from my other website, which is derrick coburn.com. And essentially where my book sort of tells everyone what to do in terms of how to host different types of events and make valuable connections on behalf of your clients and, you know, leverage it as a way to, you know, to meet more of the types of people that you want to meet that, you know, people that could become potential clients or strategic partners, you know, the book sort of said, here's what you do. Whereas the course, like, I've got all of these assets. right, that worked then and a lot of people have been using them since and they still work great.

You know, it's email templates. It's, you know, checklist, systems, you know, it's how to, how to sort of run everything. So, you know, I've never done this before. I've never done an online course and I've thought about it, but I think unlike other authors, you know, I have two businesses and those are both going well and I get to spend time doing things I really enjoy and, you know, make good money for doing it, right? So it's every time I thought about doing a course, it was like, okay, I'm ready. I'm excited to do this. It's like, now I have to learn how to, you know, run Facebook ads, right? And it's like, I don't have time for this. And I finally found a great person and his team to partner with to sort of package it all together and get ready.

So I'm excited to, I'm excited to give that a spin. Okay. Good. So go to Derek Coburn.com to get it. Yep. You sign up for my, you know, it'll probably be like, in the next couple weeks. I normally, you know, I normally just write articles and share ideas. I've never really sold anything. So if anybody signs up in the next week or two, it would be great if they did. They're going to get a couple of emails about my course. But hopefully they, they, if it's not for them, they don't say, well, this guy's always

selling stuff because that's normally, you know, I never do that. Gotcha, man. I appreciate it. Derek, thanks again. Yeah, man. Thanks again for being here. I loved it. We'll obviously be continuing this dialogue.

as we both progress, man. It's been great. Yeah, I love to do that, Ryan. Thanks again for having me, man. This was a lot of fun. All right, man. Sounds good. All right. Take care, bud. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to Learningleadershow.com for more information

and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see. We'll see you next time on The Learning Leader Show.