The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 138: Caroline Burckle – How To Use Visualization Like An Olympian

Starting point is 00:00:00 Whatever you're trying to do, you know, whether it's at work and you're sitting at a desk all day or you're about to go race a half marathon or you're trying to perfect your golf game or, you know, I don't know, overcome anxiety about social situations. Everything revolves around how do I find that visualized, you know, how do I find that visualized state? Like how do I get to that point of really wanting to focus on what I want, wanting it? You have to want it. You can't just do it because you think it's going to help. You have to actually want it. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders.

Starting point is 00:00:42 Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. Hey, guys, it's Ryan Update. In regards to the Facebook group we've set up, I'm so happy to see the response that we've gotten from so many great. fellow learning leaders. The conversation and the dialogue has been fantastic, so I'd love to invite all of you to further the conversation and join us. Simply go to learning leader.com slash group. Learningleader.com slash group, and we will add you to the community. And you can join like-minded individuals to discuss leadership topics. Argue a little bit. Maybe we can disagree.

Starting point is 00:01:35 I think that's how we all learn, but it's been fantastic so far. I've loved really engaging with you guys, the great listeners of the Learning Leader show. So go to learning leader.com slash group. We'll add you, and I look forward to talking with you soon. Hey, and welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. What a great conversation with Caroline Berkel.

Starting point is 00:02:04 Caroline is an Olympian who earned a bronze medal at the two. 2008 Olympic Games. She's a swimmer, a world-class swimmer. She earned all-American honors 23 times at the University of Florida while in college. She won two NCAA individual championships and the 200 and the 500-yard freestyle and was named the 2008 NCAA female swimmer of the year. Caroline has since moved on to an incredible coaching and mentoring career that we'll talk about during this conversation. A few of the other topics we got into. Her experience at the 2008 Beijing Olympics and standing on the podium after winning a medal and was going through her mind at that very moment. And then visualization and flow

Starting point is 00:02:51 state. How can all of us get into that state? How can we use visualization to help us? This is what Caroline does on a daily basis. She helps people do this. It was fascinating to hear it from her directly. And then we discussed some of the tougher moments in her life, the preparation. the fighting with coaches leading up to the Olympics, and then the feelings of some depression post-Olympics. Really grateful for how deep Caroline went. This was a great conversation. I absolutely loved it.

Starting point is 00:03:20 Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, it's Caroline Burkle. All right, Caroline, so excited to have you here. It's been cool getting to know you over the last few weeks. So I got a question to get us rolling. Based on your background and your history, you've spent time around world-class athletes. Michael Phelps is the greatest Olympian that's ever lived, and you were on his swim team in Beijing when he set that record. All these incredible feats, people you've been around, not just him but others.

Starting point is 00:03:57 I'm curious from your perspective, what are some of the common themes or virtues of people that seem to sustain excellence? Yeah, honestly, connectivity. And that's the first word that comes to mind for me is connection. and between teammates, between teammates and coaches and staff. And it's pretty crazy how that has spoken to me so much more recently than I ever really realized when I was in the moment. And now I'm so grateful for having all of that connectivity with those people because you learn how to be a leader through that and you can lead others.

Starting point is 00:04:36 And the other thing I'd say is the ability to know that you're leading other leaders. And I think that in order to be a leader, you have to breed other leaders and not think that you're the only leader. And that's a hard thing for a lot of athletes that are type A personalities and want to be the best and want to be the only leader to share that leadership with someone else and to know that you're training on other leaders underneath you or as your peers, the same age as you or older than you or whatever it may be is you have to share that leadership and take what you can get from each person. Who are the first people that pop into your mind when you think of sustaining excellence over an extended period of time? Oh, this question. Every time I listen to the other

Starting point is 00:05:19 podcasts, I'm like, God, what would I say? Now you're on. So it's great. I have to say, it's cool to have, you know, this happens from time to time where someone who's a fan of the show happens to also be a world-class performer themselves, just like you, Caroline. So yeah, Yeah, hopefully I killed enough time to let you think there for a second, but I'm excited to hear. My current leaders now have always been different than what they used to be. Let's put it that way. I think my leadership mindset when I was an athlete was, you know, my leaders are my coaches. My leaders are my peers.

Starting point is 00:06:00 My leaders are the best athletes ever. And while that's still true, now my leaders are people like. Brenny Brown and people that, you know, write these books and do these research that actually care about things that, you know, I didn't care about a long time ago and people that actually change the thoughts of others and not just tell them what to do. I think that's where it shifted in my mind is coaching in a different way, coaching in a way that makes you think and not a way that's just telling you what to do. So Bernie Brown is. one of my favorite leaders as of right now. So that's the first name that pops into my mind for

Starting point is 00:06:41 her for sake of simplicity. Why her? Do you do you value vulnerability a lot? It feels like it based on some of our conversations, but I'll let you answer. Yeah, I value that a lot, but I also value the fact that she does the work. And I'm so into this whole mindset right now of our society wanting results so fast and no one wants to do the work. Everyone just wants it. And I fall into the frustration trap with that often, but I listen to her and how much research she's done and how many trips she's taken with her girlfriends and done these research vacations for lack of a better term. And she does the work. She puts it in and she disappears. She goes off the radar for months to write these books to create these shifts in her mind. And she's not afraid.

Starting point is 00:07:34 to take the time to do that. And I think that that's really spoken to me because, you know, the generation is I want it and I want it now. And I fall into that sometimes. It's like I want it now. And that's not leadership to me. Like that's not. You know, so I struggle with that wanting that. And I think that she's opened my eyes to you got to do the work. You can't just produce content. People don't just write these books. They don't just put the stuff out that impacts others without doing the work. You mentioned a few minutes ago the phrase when I was an athlete. And do you not view yourself as an athlete anymore? Gosh, that was a good one.

Starting point is 00:08:14 No, I do. And you just called me out. That's awesome. I do. And, you know, the other day someone said, oh, so you were an Olympian. I was like, yeah, I was a former Olympian. And I had to stop. And I'm like, no.

Starting point is 00:08:30 Once an Olympian, always an Olympian. don't discredit yourself like that. You know, you're not, you weren't like, oh, I was a has been, you know, like that's already putting yourself in a category that's not a former, you know, a former. Like, what is that in your mind? Like, oh, I'm just, I was an Olympian and I'm never going to be that anymore, you know, and I think that's where I'm shifting that is, yes, always have that. I'm always an athlete.

Starting point is 00:08:55 And I still compete in little races and little, I say little, but, you know, for fun. like it's not the end-all, be-all and whatnot. But, you know, every single day, my butt's up at 5 a.m. as an athlete with my squad doing work, you know, and that's still my mindset of leadership, I guess you could put it. Well, I think I might know this answer, but I want to ask the question anyway. What is your greatest professional achievement? I pause because, of course, my mind wants to say, or, you know, my gut reaction will say, well, the Olympics standing on the podium for sure.

Starting point is 00:09:35 So just for the people who don't know, what was, tell them about what happened, what it was, the event, all that. So I was in the Beijing Olympics in 2008 and qualified for the 4x200 free cell relay. So everyone's terms of 200, so 800. And we got bronze. So Australia won, China got second and we got third. And it was just a insane. I mean, the entire Olympic Games was just insane. China just dominated. So it was a bit of an upset for us in that way, but not at all because we meddled the same time. So it was just an unbelievable experience. And that, yeah, so that was in 2008 summer. I was what just turned 21. And it feels like yesterday, but then also, wow, it was like forever ago, like eight years ago now this summer. So that's my background with that. But probably.

Starting point is 00:10:31 Prior to that, I mean, I've been swimming since I was like five. So, you know, that obviously didn't happen overnight. Right. I was the third place swimmer on that relay in the prelims and finals. Okay. So you hesitate to say that's your greatest professional achievement. Yeah. I mean, most people, I believe, I've talked to 140 plus people now.

Starting point is 00:10:52 I haven't not talked to anyone who's meddled in the Olympics before. So it, and I'm looking at leaders, you know, and all over the world. So obviously that's such a rare feat just to make the Olympics alone, then to go and to stand on the podium to medal, you would think would be the greatest achievement. But you hesitated. So maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I'm curious, though, to hear your thoughts on it. Yeah. I mean, it was, but my mind always goes back to NCAA's before that.

Starting point is 00:11:21 So the summer before the Olympics was NCAA's Ohio State. So, you know, your backyard sort of. And I was going into that meat, you know, probably the most relaxed I've ever been in my entire life. And I think it's because I was just taking things one thing at a time, one meet at a time, like one performance at a time. And the team aspect to me was so huge with my team at the University of Florida. So I swam for the University of Florida, went to NCAA's my senior year, and I was favored to win the 200 and 500 freestyle.

Starting point is 00:11:57 For some reason, that didn't even bother me. It was like the most confident I've ever been. Favor because you had the best times going into the meet? Yeah, yeah. So I was favored for that reason. And I ended up winning both of those. And I was, it was an incredible, the 500 free was probably the best race I've ever had in my life. And I think back to it.

Starting point is 00:12:20 And, you know, that was, I mean, it was so incredibly effortless. Like, I wish I could say that it hurt. Like, and I feel, I almost feel guilty saying that. I feel guilty saying that because if I could make every other race feel like that, it would have just been like glory. You know, but it was so effortless. And I ended up, I was, I broke Janet Evans 18 year old record. And I was the first woman to ever go under 434.

Starting point is 00:12:54 I went 433. So it was the most incredible experience, you know, just being able to look over and see my entire team and my family in the stands and knowing what all had gone on in the four years of being at the University of Florida, all the tears, all the happiness, like all the everything. You know, I mean, you're in such a vulnerable state in your life. And that was just the most incredible experience. And then that momentum I took into the next day and was able to win the 200 free. And that was a much closer race with one of my really good friends. Lacey Nymeyer, who was also on the Olympic team in 2008 right after. So that one just stands out of my mind.

Starting point is 00:13:30 And I don't know if it was because it was, quote, unquote, easy, or if it was because of the team or I don't know if it was just a combination of it all. I was team captain, so I was able to have this ownership of it as well. And so you were the 2008 NCAA female swimmer of the year by virtue of winning those two. So this may be a dumb question from a guy who is, as you know, from our conversation. a very amateur swimmer. When you swim a 500 and you finish in four minutes and 33 seconds, are you sprinting the entire time?

Starting point is 00:14:08 No. Like how, I mean, not like you'd sprint like at like a 50. Like I've seen those guys. But like, like, I'm trying to think of like on a track maybe running. Like how hard are you going and what's your strategy to when you just like is it at the very end? Is it closer? Are there parts in the middle?

Starting point is 00:14:25 Curious from a guy who doesn't, you know, ignorant to it. Yeah. My strategy was 100, 300, 100. And I still broke the middle 300 up into hundreds. But that first 100 was easy speed. And I had this ability to really feel and really feel that easy speed when I was on. That natural easy speed came very naturally to me to where I could hit my pace and knock it out without feeling like I was trying. So then the middle 300 was descend one to three.

Starting point is 00:14:57 And that's where I really started to push it. Descend one to three. What does that mean? Descend the 100s down. So that first 100 of the 300 is the slowest of the three. Okay. Not by nature of being slow per se, but you're going to descend by one hundreds. Okay.

Starting point is 00:15:12 And then the last 100 is just whatever you have left. So that's where you're just pumping it. And honestly, I reframed the entire thing in my mind to be a 300 freestyle. So I didn't even think of it as a 500. So I was really good at being able to trick myself into that first 100 and that last hundred are absolutely autopilot. Like you go into those modes and you get into that flow and the middle 300 is yours. Like that's your race.

Starting point is 00:15:40 And so my coach always joked. Coach Greg Troy always joked and Martin Willby that I was a 300 freestyle because I was a middle distance swimmer, you know. So the 300 freestyle was my race because I was able to swim the 200. I was able to swim the 500 well. But that 300 was like key for me for some odd reason. I have no idea. But I was able to just tap into that flow state really, really well.

Starting point is 00:16:07 And that's how I did that race for sure. Interesting. You mentioned flow state a couple times there. Stephen Kotler was on the show who talks a lot about that. He's written a lot about it. I don't know if you're familiar with his work probably. but how do you, we're going to bounce around some. So just bear with me.

Starting point is 00:16:25 So how do you take getting to that flow state, the 100, 300, 100 style of your approach, your strategy to setting, to breaking a record that stood for a very long time? How do you, is there a way to take that and implement it into someone's life? So I'll ask it kind of two parts. One for you and two, let's say. for the people now, and we'll talk more about what you're doing today, for the people that you work with and the people that you coach, how can you take it from the pool and that flow state to, and I'm thinking for myself, selfishly, and I'm thinking for people who are listening

Starting point is 00:17:03 to say, all right, we're talking with a world-class performer who's done it on the biggest stages in the world. How can I learn directly from Caroline to then implement that into my life? Yeah, and this is good because you're about to rock out a triathlon relay up in August. By the way, he's swimming in the triathlon relay, so keep your eyes peeled. World records are going to be broken. I'm counting on it here. Okay. No, but that's a great question because it's one of the hardest things to explain is flow.

Starting point is 00:17:35 It's one of the hardest things to explain because it just is. And people want to know, how do I find flow? How do I find flow? And you find flow through putting in the work. But you also find flow in your daily life from practice. and it's constant practice of not practicing. So let me explain that. So I am a huge visualizer.

Starting point is 00:18:02 I'm a huge visualizer. I believe in visualization. That's what I was trying to say. And, you know, when you get to that place to where you can really focus on something and create and paint that picture and go through it in your head of what you really want, to where you're almost feeling it. It's like, you ever watch a dog take a nap and they're running and their sleep? Like, that's what I'm talking about.

Starting point is 00:18:26 It's that feeling of you're literally laying in your bed, visualizing and your body's moving, like through the motions of swimming or through the motions. Like that's what I got to. You know, I could master that at the end and that really, really helped me. And so going, you know, shifting that to life, it's, you know, whatever you're trying to do, you know, whether it's at work and you're sitting at a desk all day, or you're about to go race a half marathon, or you're trying to

Starting point is 00:18:54 perfect your golf game or, you know, I don't know, overcome anxiety about social situations. Everything revolves around how do I find that visualized, you know, how do I find that visualized state? Like, how do I get to that point of really wanting to focus on what I want, wanting it? You have to want it. You can't just do it because you think it's going to help. You have to actually want it and actually focus on that. and streamline all of it into one channel, like river, not a lake, like one place. And so it's the hardest thing to explain, Ryan, honestly.

Starting point is 00:19:27 Like, it's so hard. And I wish that I had that specific answer for people in their daily lives. Like, what does it feel like? But honestly, you're not going to know either is the other thing. You don't even know what it feels like to be in that place sometimes. You have to, you know, when you think back to your best moments and what it felt, like, I guarantee you, you just, you say, I don't know. I mean, you may feel that about your football career. They may be the best game ever. And you're thinking about like, what are you thinking?

Starting point is 00:19:57 And you're like, I don't know. We were just happy and we were all pumped up. And, you know, and it's like you know, but you can't explain it like you would if you're having a hard time. Because then you can name every detail, everything that went wrong, everything you were feeling, everything, you know. So. Yeah, exactly. I think of for me, in this, This is something I say often when I talk about fear during a speech. So if I'm giving up in one of the topics that I like to talk about is fear or being scared. And I've said the greatest medicine for fear or for being scared, the greatest medicine is preparation. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:20:37 And for me, that's like swimming all of these laps or when playing football, it was getting the necessary a number of reps that was needed. lifting weights year round, watching film year round, understanding game plans that week, understanding matchup situations where we might have a better chance to win or maybe a lesser chance to win. So all of that comes from my preparation. So when I go out to do whatever it is I'm going to do, and now it's more like preparing for a podcast, preparing to give a speech, which I think giving a speech up on stage in front of hundreds of people when you're all alone sometimes is more nerve-wracking than playing a football game in front of 100,000. people because there I had 10 buddies with me where wearing helmets and pads and,

Starting point is 00:21:21 you know, nobody, nobody's looking at my face directly, you know, and so I think I, that's why I like to, we're talking flow here, but I think part of flow is, is, is, is prep and being prepared for that moment. And one of the first people, and you and I talk about this in, in our Facebook group where you can join it here at learning leader.com slash group, but our Facebook group where we were saying, you brought up a great point on, on this, talking a little about flow and getting your mind and body soul and ready. And I thought of Jason Day, the golfer. And not everybody watches golf, but if you watch golf, you notice one of the best players in the world right now is Jason Day. And he has a pre-shot routine where

Starting point is 00:21:59 literally he stands behind the ball. He closes his eye. He like puts his left or his right hand on his left hand where his glove kind of meets his wrist and he holds it there and he closes his eyes and he thinks about and visualizes the shot. And that's like the first, and the TV cameras do a great job of kind of zooming in on this. That's one of the first things I thought of when you were talking about this visualization from a preparation method to get ready to perform. Right. Well, and what I kept hearing you say, too, is repetition. It's repetition of this visualization.

Starting point is 00:22:28 You know, you were saying, I did this and I did this and I was meticulous about this. And that's the other thing is you can't just show up and I come and visualize this and it's all going to work out. You know, you have to put in the work. You have to put in the practice over and over. And visualizing is a constant. practice, you know, to where when you get so good at it, it is what you said, Jason Day, just doesn't even notice that cameras are on them probably, you know? I mean, there's no notice of the 360 vision around you. You know it's all there, but you're in such a zone

Starting point is 00:23:01 that you're able to block all of that out because you've practiced that over and over and over again and put yourself in that moment, in that element. Yeah. No, I think it's a really interesting topic and it's definitely something I want to keep talking about because I know you do that on databases. So let's get to that. Let's get to your daily practice. So when somebody walks up to you now, Caroline, and they say, hey, what do you do? How do you respond? Now I say I run a mentoring program with Rebecca Sonny and we connect Olympians and elite athletes to amateur athletes, so young athletes. And so we train the mental side of sports based on the methodology that we've worked on, which does include visualization. And it's a lot of imagery and goal setting and

Starting point is 00:23:48 fear-based work, expectation-based work. And so we activate their minds through that. And it's online, Skype-based from all over the world. So we have athletes in Dubai and athletes, we have Irish dancers. And we have soccer players and swimmers. And yeah, and it's absolutely incredible to see them grow in their minds at that age because there's so much pressure on these 13 to 18 year olds that they're going through in their sport and what they're doing for performance. And it's pretty humbling and actually very eye-opening for Rebecca and I right now. So that's what I do. And then I'm also a health coach, health and wellness coach and goal coach.

Starting point is 00:24:31 And I do that on my own. And I work with a lot of former athletes. So that's my focus. That's my niche is former athletes that are looking to get back to their goals in their life and find what they want to do and how they want to tick every single day. So quote unquote life coach, but I specialize in the former elite athlete that is moving forward in their life and figuring out how do I tap back into what I was really great at in my life now.

Starting point is 00:24:59 Do you get probably not to your face, but is there any criticism towards you to say how, like when people say that use a term life coach, sometimes they kind of turn their head a little bit and say, what do you know? You're not old enough to be a life coach. Like how do you respond to that? That's why I said quote unquote because I still have a life to live. And, you know, but I mean, don't we all, you know? And so I think, yeah, I'm turning 30 in three weeks, which feels so weird, by the way. And everyone's probably laughing right now. Like, oh my God, this girl's a young little, young little nugget. She has a long life to live.

Starting point is 00:25:35 And I do. And I have so much to learn. Hence why I stock podcast 24-7 and want to soak up like a sponge every single thing possible. But I also know that my experience as an athlete is valuable to those people that are looking for. How do I tap back into what I was really great at? And she obviously did it and she's obviously pursuing and following what she's wanted to do. So a lot of the conversations that we do have as well are open and extremely vulnerable conversations.

Starting point is 00:26:11 It's a lot of back and forth discussion on, you know, possibility. And the fact that there is no limit to what you can and can't do, you know, in people's late 20s or early 30s as far as what they're trying to accomplish in their job. or in their life and newly married or whatever it may be, we always, all of these former athletes put these limits and blocks on themselves. And that's what's so tough is you have this like, I almost want to make things harder for myself mentality that I want to struggle and I want it to be hard. So why is it hard, but then I want it to be easy. So, you know, let's figure this out.

Starting point is 00:26:50 That's a lot of what the conversation revolves around. So there are now, fortunately, most of the people listening, have a positive outlook on life, they believe, they have a growth mindset, they believe that there are a lot of, that coaching is really necessary. But there's probably also a subset that says, you guys are having this nice, happy talk. Like, how sweet. Like, this is great. And I'm, so I'm curious for the people who are listening to this with skepticism, that view positive psychology as like, come on, like, get real with your life. That's, like, there are, there are real problems and let's get real for a minute. So how do you respond to those types of

Starting point is 00:27:34 people? Or maybe you don't. I don't know. I'm curious. Yeah, you know, a lot of my best friends are completely realists and really realistic. And I've always been a think outside the box, think of possibility, think broad, think huge. And narrowing it down is sometimes hard for me. And so, you know, yeah, there's my, you know, my dad is one of them. He's the most realistic person ever. And he says things exactly how they are at the current moment. And this is this. And this, you know, my brother's the same way.

Starting point is 00:28:07 And they're very logical. And a lot of times I have to catch myself because I want to say, you know, well, no, you know, this is possible. This is, and this is how it is. And this is going to be this because I see such, this glass half full. and I struggle sometimes with that realistic, okay, this is what it is. And so my answer to others is, you know, what is your reality then? And why do you want to fight it? You know, why do you want to fight what's possible?

Starting point is 00:28:36 You know, can't you be in both places? You know, can't you be in the reality, but also know what's possible? You know, there is a way to think about what you do want and also still be realistic with things. So I think that that's where I've noticed the cap is I'm going to be realistic and this is how it is and this is just going to be how it is and I need to do this, this, this, this, well, sure, but that doesn't mean that you can't believe in what it is that you do know that you're capable of. Or have you even tapped into that? Have you tapped into what you really do know that you want and that you are capable of?

Starting point is 00:29:13 Or are you putting a little bit on yourself? That's all that you're going to be doing. And so that's where I challenge people, you know, is that all you really feel that you're good at? Or is that all you really feel that life is about is paying bills and working and moving forward? Yes, you have to do that to live. But is that what you feel that you're put here to do? You know, what is it that you're, what's your purpose? And so just tapping into that and it doesn't take away the reality of the matter. It just, I think it's something that we all forget from day to day craziness. Can you share too from an educational standpoint? You're not just some former athlete who

Starting point is 00:29:47 didn't go to school. You've also got a graduate degree. If I'm, that's correct, right? Yeah. So where do you go and what did you do a study? Yeah. So I was a trader and I went to University of Tennessee. After graduating undergrad from Florida, yeah. Yeah. So I graduated undergrad from Florida. My first declared major at Florida was psychology, but then you have to choose because of swim practice, right? I couldn't go to the labs. So I had to choose swimming or psych. So then I switched over to sociology, which everyone said, oh, that's the athlete major. But I actually really wanted to do sociology. Like I really wanted to do sociology.

Starting point is 00:30:21 Like I really was interested. Like that was something that I wanted. And it wasn't easy, to be honest, at Florida. It wasn't easy. So graduated that. And then I got my master's in sports psychology and motor behavior from the University of Tennessee. Wow. So there's a lot of, I don't know the right word, educational theory behind what you're saying,

Starting point is 00:30:42 not just a former athlete, you know, trying to create this coaching business. It's both, which I think is a great mix. because you've lived it, you've gone through the struggles, you've had to grind, but you've also studied it, which I think is a, that's why I'm, I don't know, are you writing a book by chance? Because I feel like I was, as I was preparing, I'm like, you're still pretty young, I guess, but wonder why you hadn't been in the process or I've already published some sort of text other than the writings that you do on mind, body green and other places. Yeah, so glad you asked this because writing is one of my fears.

Starting point is 00:31:18 Well, you should send me that note. You should voice the book, I think. Like, you know, just say it into one of those services so that they could write it for you and you just talk it out. Because I know you told me you don't like to type. Well, okay. So the other day, I had this giant epiphany moment. And I was listening to a podcast from Brenne Brown. I think she might have been talking to Elizabeth Gilbert on Elizabeth Gilbert's podcast.

Starting point is 00:31:41 And she said, I actually hate writing. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? And so I run over to my computer and I like turn it up. I'm blasting it, right? Like I'm sure the entire neighborhood heard my podcast going. And she said, I hate writing. And she said, so what I did was I went to a cabin with five of my closest friends. And I stood up in front of them for an hour chunk at a time.

Starting point is 00:32:06 And I talked while they took notes. Because I don't like putting my thoughts on a computer screen or writing. Like I can't articulate them that way. Like my body language isn't there. The tone, the feeling, the, I don't even, the flow. Like, it's just not there. It's, like, restrictive to her. And I literally went over, rewound that entire segment,

Starting point is 00:32:30 listened back to it like six times in a row. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm not alone. Like, here I am thinking I am alone because I, everyone's blogging, everyone's writing, everyone's doing these books, everyone's doing these, and God knows what, you know, long Instagram posts with all these really, insightful things and I struggle so hard. That's my fear. That's my limit I put on myself is like I quote unquote cannot. Right. And so it's something that I, you know, here I am telling everybody, oh, you can do anything, right? You can do anything you put your mind to if you really believe in it,

Starting point is 00:33:06 right? And I tell myself I cannot write. So that's why I haven't written a book because honestly, I wrote a book in papers in grad school. And then afterwards, I was so burnt out from sitting in front of a screen and typing endless pages that I, the thought of even articulating anything on a computer screen for a blog, like made me want to run and gag. Like, I couldn't even think about it. And so it was just that feeling of, no, like, I'm going to take a break from this. Because if I try and do it, it's not going to be real. It's not going to be authentic. It's going to be what everybody else wants me to write, not what I want to write.

Starting point is 00:33:47 So now that's why I'm starting to get into more podcasting and more speaking. And honestly, I voice memo my thoughts to my friends or to myself because that's the only way I can articulate what I'm feeling. I'm curious, when are you at your absolute best, meaning time of day doing what activity? Are you alone? Are you with people? When are you your best? Five to 11 a.m. Five to 11 a.m. Okay. Why?

Starting point is 00:34:19 5 a.m. I wake up. I work out at six every morning. Even if I'm not working out, my mind is in that mode. Like if I have a flight at like 545, my butt's up at like 3 a.m. doing like squats in my living room because I have to move my body. Like that is, that's meditation for me. I work out with a group of people. So I have like a key group. group of girls here in Santa Barbara that I work out with every morning. And that's our happy place. Like we absolutely love it.

Starting point is 00:34:49 CrossFit. Amazing. Yeah. CrossFit. Running. I swim. I do yoga. I'm currently injured. So I need to get back into the Pilates stuff to strengthen some things that I've been neglecting. But that's, that's my jam. Like those hours. And then afterwards, like, all I do is get excited for breakfast and coffee and starting my day, like I actually get thrills off of checking my email and getting going and starting my day off in a way that's like for me and to get things situated squared away. I crash at like 5 p.m. every day and not crash hard. Like I have really great sustained energy to be completely honest in a good way.

Starting point is 00:35:32 But if I, you know, my nervous system gets fried and I have to be shutting down. I'm a social introvert. I can do whatever all day, but 5, 6 p.m. And it's like, caro needs to shut down. Like, go into, you know, listen to podcasts, cook dinner, clean, like, take a shower. Like, just relax. Like, I need to be in my element. And I'm a little nester in that way.

Starting point is 00:35:55 I'm a very nesting person and introvert in that way. So I get my energy from being alone after those days. Interesting. So I want to share one of my favorite. sporting moments as a spectator of my life. And it relates to the 2008 games. So, you know, you were on this team. Unfortunately, it's not your race. There's a different one. I know which one you're going to say. I assume you do. But I just want to take it back because I vividly, like for me, I'm not actually a big fan of any teams. Like I just, I'm just not. I'm a

Starting point is 00:36:32 fan of players. Like I love to follow specific players in all sports, football, baseball, basketball, whatever it may be. But when the, the last one of the last one, it be. But when the Olympics come around, like, there's, there's nothing I'm like more proud of or I root for harder than, than just than our, than our country. And I really do. And so I, there's like multiple parts of this question because I, because you got to, you know, represent our country. I've never really gotten to do that. So before, so Michael Phelps is going for eight gold medals in this, that Olympics that you were on his same swim team, right? So you probably have, you probably, I'm guessing you know them pretty well. So there's, there's this moment, though.

Starting point is 00:37:08 where they're going against France and the relay. I hate that I forget the actual length of the relay. 400. 400. Okay. So this relay against France. And this Elaine Bernard, I think the guy's name is. And I was watching NBC.

Starting point is 00:37:22 Dan Hicks, I remember the voice. It was seriously one of the greatest moments that I've watched on TV where that Bernard said, the Americans question mark, we're going to smash them. That's what we came here for. So like, first before I get to the rest of the story,

Starting point is 00:37:38 like how how involved are you and knowing what's going on with like quotes like that that motivate you even though you weren't in the race directly against that guy and Phelps and his teammates were like how do you guys you talked about the power of team and why you you'd like that aspect of it what was that like prior to a race like that where there's trash talk from from another country and the boys would the boys would feel it more than obviously We did only because they were like the four boys in the race, the four guys. But honestly, it's funny to hear everybody trash talks. Oh, what were you going to say? Go ahead. It's funny to hear you refer to the boys like, like, because the boys are like Michael. It's Michael Phelps, you know, the greatest Olympian of all time. And it's like, well, the boys is like they're your buddies.

Starting point is 00:38:26 But they are. That's who they are. I'm sure to you. Yeah. Like I don't know him. So to you, he's just probably another guy, I'm guessing. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've known Michael for, what, 15 years, you know?

Starting point is 00:38:36 And God, that really aged me. And I'm not old, guys. I'm just saying that makes me feel like, wow. Swimmers, like you have to be, you have to be good when you're so young and swimming too. Like if you're not like killing it in high school, like you have no shot. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, a lot of them are blooming later now, but which is really cool because there's a lot of cross training going on in high school and whatnot. But so, you know, honestly, you hear so much trash talking at the Olympics that you just become numb.

Starting point is 00:39:06 Like you don't, you know, if we're in the stands and we're like, oh, did you hear what Elaine Bernard said? Or oh, did you hear what so and said, whatever, we've got this. Like, it's such this mentality of whatever because you know it's there and you know it's going to be there. It's not like it's brand new, you know, and that unless it's something that's like really, really, you know, awful or something that was a big controversy. The trash talking thing was fuel to their fire. That's for sure. I mean, he made a mistake, in my opinion, even opening his mouth if they wanted any chance. And so I'm glad he did because that lit a fire under their asses.

Starting point is 00:39:44 I mean, they were excited. I'm, you know, I'm positive of that. Well, I mean, the race, especially going in the final leg, the fourth swimmer. So the guy at the end is Bernard, the guy who said that. And for our team, the Americans, it's Jason Lezac. I've showed this clip so many times. I've watched it so many times. Like, if I'm trying to have like an inspiring moment with people, I will show this.

Starting point is 00:40:04 because I love the announcers too. They were so good. Like if you watch it on NBC. Oh, yeah. Where they're like, I don't think they have a shot, Dan or whatever the color guy is. And then all of a sudden you see Lezac kind of like creeping on the guy and like getting closer and closer and closer. And then at the very end, he beats him and just the like euphoria amongst the team. And for me personally, like I don't cheer at the TV ever, like ever.

Starting point is 00:40:29 Like, ever. Like my brother's played football on TV for 15 years that I've watched. And I've, I rarely, you know, maybe a couple times have shared the TV. But for that race, I did more than I ever have in my entire life. I still remember to this day. It was in 2008. Oh my God. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:40:44 Where were you? Where were you? What was going on? How was it? Yeah. I mean, I remember. You remember everything, you know? And I have the chills even thinking about it.

Starting point is 00:40:52 I was in the stands, standing right next to Amanda Beard was on my right. On my left was Allison, then Kim over. I mean, I just remember everything. We were just like, and I don't swear. And I remember having pit stains. Or pit sweat marks like, whoa. Like that's an honest, like nervous moment, you know. And we knew, obviously, the rivalry between the two teams.

Starting point is 00:41:16 But the second Elaine opens his mouth, too, about, you know, and, you know, good for him that he was pumped up and did it. But the second he does already puts him in a category in his mind of now I have to back that up. And whereas we went in with, you know, class and went in with this mindset of, you know what? We're going to win. And there's no second place. And so already envisioning the winning, you know, visualizing it again. But Jason Lezac, I mean, that was just the most incredible finish. I just, I can't even explain it. Because honestly, being in the stands, everything is so surreal with where we were, you know, in that moment. And it's watching it on TV now. You're almost like, whoa. like it almost looks different, you know, because you feel like you're in the race with them

Starting point is 00:42:08 when you're actually in the stands because you know them and they're friends. And it's like you've invested so much love and energy in these people for the previous two months. You know, like we were gone forever. You go to Olympic trials and then you go straight to the games. So or straight, you know, to training camp. And then to the games, I mean, you're gone from mid-June to mid-August completely, living out of bags. This is interesting to me. maybe not for others, but it's for me.

Starting point is 00:42:33 Where, like, where do you, where did you go? Walk me through leading up to the, the Beijing Olympics, like where you were before. And then even maybe some of the Olympic Village, because we've heard about it, but I don't really know what it's like. Yeah. So you make the team and every sport's different. So swimming and I want to say track and field still does it this way, but they might have a bit of a different scoring now. The United States at least, when you make the team. in June, you're on the road. So you are, we went straight to training camp, you go straight

Starting point is 00:43:08 to training camp and we went to Palo Alto. So we trained at Stanford for four weeks. And then we went to Singapore. So that's when you get used to the time change. So you're in Singapore for 10 days. And that's taper time. That's like when everyone's starting to feel a little antsy. We've been gone for a while. We have, you know, you're excited. You're ready to go. But it's like, all right, just get me there and it's hard to enjoy actually where you are there. I mean, we did. It was unbelievably beautiful. It stayed in the Shangri-La, you know, and it was amazing.

Starting point is 00:43:37 But you're antsy. You're ready to get going. And so then you get to Beijing and we get there like four days early, three or four days early before the opening ceremonies. United States had a couple towers in the Olympic Village. Every country has a different tower with the exception of the smaller countries that all share a bunch of different high rises. So what's a tower?

Starting point is 00:43:58 Or like, what do you mean? Like a big apartment complex? Yeah, pretty much. So it's just like in Beijing, they were like straight up, you know, giant high rises. And if you're, I guess that's what you call them. I know this. That really doesn't sound right. But there's like maybe eight four or five floors, some with eight floors, some with six floors, whatever it may be.

Starting point is 00:44:17 And then, you know, swimming has like four floors or, you know, and then gymnastics is underneath us. And, but there's a bunch of those in the village. It's kind of like, I always joke. It's like the Sims. when you feel like you're like looking down on this like little bubble of like all, you know, if you were looking from above, it's just like this bubble, this giant bubble, this giant circle of all these buildings, you know, with a bunch of little weaving paths in between and then a giant cafeteria and then a giant sports medicine area and a giant visitor area, you know, all this stuff.

Starting point is 00:44:48 It's just like you're almost in this little land, like you're in this little world. But Beijing was, I mean, to be honest, Ryan, you don't see anything. you know about you don't you don't go anywhere like we're literally get in the bus go to the water cube come come back um until you're done you can't go to other events or really anything so you got to focus but you're in the village and then back and forth back and forth so that's how it is but it's i mean we're there 14 days obviously and you can check out when you're done and then go explore do whatever but um like when when the whole team's done you can check out so i got you yeah yeah yeah

Starting point is 00:45:27 Swimming's the longest, too. Swimming's a long, you know, it's a lot of days in there. So it's a long haul. But it's incredible. I mean, no words even express the amount of pride you have in your country when you're there. It's pretty unreal. I was going to be a thought I had is I have pride in it from just being a citizen. The level of pride you had to have, especially when you got up on the podium, I believe you had to be, I don't know,

Starting point is 00:45:56 just so much more intense that you're. representing our country. I mean, what is that like? It was surreal. But you expect it too. You know, you know you're there. And it's like you expect it in a positive way. Like I knew that I wanted to stand on that.

Starting point is 00:46:12 I remember walking in the first day and just looking at the podium. You know, it's right there. And I just remember going over and just touching it. You know, it's like that is what you're channeling and that's what I wanted. And you feel that. Like you're there. You're in the space. You're going back to that visualizing, you know.

Starting point is 00:46:27 And if you, I mean, if you don't feel that, then you should check yourself that you should be there. And there were moments, though. You know, there were moments that I was like, what? Like, do I deserve to be here? You know, and I had my moments. You know, I had my moments of breakdown. I had my moments of tears, you know. I mean, training camp and in Singapore, I mean, gosh, I think I had a couple breakdowns in Singapore.

Starting point is 00:46:54 You know, I had a couple in Palo Alto. Why? Palo Alto was tough for me because I'm not a, well, I wasn't a very, not consistent, but my training was that of a guy more so. Like I broke down very easily. And so a lot of times. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:47:21 Yeah, sorry. My body. My body broke down really quickly. So I trained with a lot of guy backstrokers anyway because we would go. that's the same equivalent time in the 200 free-style. So I, which was helpful because the guys tend to break down a little bit more because they have more muscle and whatnot. But I struggled a lot mentally feeling like I was just getting my ass kicked in Palo Alto.

Starting point is 00:47:43 And I was like, what, like, am I supposed to be doing this? Like, you know, and coach had to keep bringing me back. Like, Burkle, this is how you are, you know. And, you know, this is that your body responds. Don't get down on yourself. Look at what is going right. Like, you know, just because they can go back back. You know, you're going up in yardage right away because you've got to start training again for the Olympics.

Starting point is 00:48:03 And so I was just, I was wiped. You come off trials too, which is a week long. And you're just like, oh, my God. You know, I just need a break. And you're living out of a hotel, you know. And you just feel like I need a moment to breathe and to just think about everything that just happened. And so about a week goes by in Palo Alto and then it things start to hit you, right? You're like, okay.

Starting point is 00:48:25 Back in training for three weeks. weeks. Like, this isn't, it's not all rainbows and butterflies anymore, like starting to focus again. And so I struggled with that. And Singapore, I struggled. Actually, my coach and I just, we really struggled. I, his expectations were through the roof. And that's when I started having expectation, you know, I was just completely paralysis. Like, I had zero, like, confidence all of a sudden. It was like a couple days and I would just be missing my pace for the 200 free by two seconds in a 50. I mean, I wasn't even close. And I knew that I went through a phase right before that I struggled, you know, getting back down to my pace because when your body's changing again and starting to rest, it kind of goes through a funky phase.

Starting point is 00:49:18 And so I knew that. But it was, I felt so not enough, you know, like I, like what am I doing? Like I'm not going to, this isn't going to be good. Like I'm going to embarrass myself in front of the entire nation. And I think a lot of athletes feel that at some point throughout that entire process because you just get a lot of stuff thrown at you. And my coach was really on me, you know, and he wants, you know, he wants me to do so well. And of course, he wants to feel good about his coaching that got me there.

Starting point is 00:49:48 And, you know, I remember, sorry to go off on this little tangent, but I remember swimming and doing pace in Singapore. And I was doing a set of 50s, I think it was 450s. And on the second one, coach just looks at me and he was like, get out now. Just get out. And I was like, what? So I just, I mean, we got in this fight and I got out and I'm crying. And, you know, I'm up to myself. I don't think anyone saw me except for Amanda Beard.

Starting point is 00:50:20 So Amanda Beard's like up there because she was doing some abs and some core work and whatever. And she's up there and she's like, what is going on? You know? And a couple of the coaches went over to my coach and was just like, you know, look, nothing has changed with her. This is where she's at right now. And, you know, let's put some trust back into this, not this fear.

Starting point is 00:50:39 And so I was just allowing this fear to like seep into me that my coach didn't believe in me and he didn't think I was great. You know, and so I'm creating these stories. he's creating these stories and it was just this giant like bubble of fear like circling that we're you know neither of us were communicating about what we were going to do it was all like you have to do you have to you have to you have to and it gets there's a lot of pressure you know there's a lot of pressure so that was a turning point though him and i sat down after that and i was just like look like we've been through this before we went through this at florida like i know your expectations are high with me

Starting point is 00:51:14 but like let's communicate about what it is that is going to go on and not that I'm not hitting my pace right this moment and now I'm going to suck. Like that that was just not okay, you know, and we need to talk about why I'm fearful and how I can get past this point, you know. So does, does self doubt, is that something that drives you today? It feels like it did, you know, to win an Olympic medal. But how do you maybe you use that doubt as fuel? Yeah, good question. You know, a lot of times really great athletes use frustration and anger as fuel. And I'm sure you've heard that before, right?

Starting point is 00:51:59 When you get really angry, you're able to perform and you're able to sack up and do it because I'm angry. You know, it's kind of like Leesack and all them, you know, before that race. It's like, oh, he said what? You know, it's like it's fuel. You're angry. Now, in my life now, I use that because I get really frustrated and I've shared this with you, Ryan. I find myself falling into this trap of what is important in our society now. And if I don't Instagram and blog and put myself out there and throw myself into the world,

Starting point is 00:52:35 showing everyone all of these things, then I'm not enough. and that's that self-doubt that's like you have to be doing what everyone else is doing in order to succeed you know and in swimming I was really different than everyone else like I was a different athlete I didn't even know times I had no concept of times I only went by feel I went by tempo I went by feel I went by experience I went by trust by faith I went by flow and that's the kind of athlete I was and so now even taking it into today's world. If I'm overthinking, then I'm all in my head. I'm thinking about, oh, my God, you know, all these people and all these things. And I'm not enough. They're doing all

Starting point is 00:53:21 the, I mean, this person has 300,000 Instagram followers. And this person has this and, and comparison. And I would get so caught up in it six months ago. I mean, you can ask any of my closest friends. I would literally voice them with them in tears. Like, this is pointless. Like, I might as well just like throw in the tout. Like I'm never, I don't have to stand a chance. I'm doubting myself. You know,

Starting point is 00:53:41 there's so much doubt. Like who am I? What am I doing? Is this even worth it? Like, you know, what am I? Like who am I to say and help others when I'm sitting here frustrated? Mm-hmm.

Starting point is 00:53:51 And, you know, so again, going back, I think back to swimming and I thought back to what, when I, in my life, when I was frustrated, you know,

Starting point is 00:54:01 and when I was doubting myself, what is it that I did? You know, and I, I learned to visualize. I learn to shut off my brain. You know, and that it's so hard now because I'm like, well, that's different. You know, you're like using your body.

Starting point is 00:54:16 And like, now I need my brain for my job. You know, you can't just shut your brain off. But I do feel that I'm starting to tap into that a lot more now and be able to use that fear and that frustration and that doubt to tap into my flow, to remember and to recognize what is it that does help me. and is it everything that everyone says it is, is producing all of this hoopla around you, is that really what you're about?

Starting point is 00:54:46 You know, is that really what you've always been about? And is that a story you're creating your head? They're happy with what they're doing. Be happy. Yeah. You know, don't try and compare yourself.

Starting point is 00:54:57 And so that's the competitive mindset, right? Like you want to be the best. Right. I think it's like, I think a lot of people, suffer from this, they just don't talk about it. They're not as open about it as you are. But in, you know, especially

Starting point is 00:55:10 I think maybe high performing athletes because like you've competed your whole life. You've had to beat somebody else, right? Like there's some way to keep score. For me, it's the exact same way. Like there's ways I had to beat out four or five other guys just to play on the team, you know, to start.

Starting point is 00:55:26 And then once you're the guy, you have to keep the job. And then you actually have to do the job and you have to win games for your team. And if you play back, they write bad things about you and people say mean things about you. You know, you have to have a thick skin. I think I think the good thing is it prepares you in such a way for whatever else comes.

Starting point is 00:55:44 Like for me, and it's probably the same for you, nothing that I've done since some of the tough work playing sports, specifically for me football, because that's what I played in college and after college. Nothing that I have had to do since then, like professional work-wise. Nothing has been even close to as hard as that. Nothing. Yeah. Nothing.

Starting point is 00:56:04 It's not, and it's not even close. Like, like, if, like, let's say like a boss, like, says something negative about maybe something, some of your work. Well, it's, it's not even close to some of the things I've been, I've been called by coaches in the past. Like, not even close. You know, I've had, I've had those, unfortunately, some of those yelling matches. Like, I remember my offense coordinator being up in the box, you know, watching.

Starting point is 00:56:27 And after each series, you have to come talk on the phone. And you want to watch football games. You've seen quarterbacks who do this where, you know, you have to talk. to him and I would basically yell at him that he had absolutely no idea what he's talking about, which is not a good thing to say to your coach. But I believe it in the moment. I actually got us to leave today. But for these specific moments. But I think my point of saying this, though, is that some of those moments in our lives help prepare us for life after it in such a way that I'm so grateful for having gone through that adversity. And that's why I think today,

Starting point is 00:57:00 especially when you talk about younger people, when you work with kids, and or younger people in it, I think it's so important. And I've had some professionals on to talk about this that have agreed with this, people who do this for a living, so important for young people in their formative years to have to go through adversity, to have to go through the tough time because that for me has made, for lack of a better phrase, has made life a little bit easier because of the tough things that you've had to go

Starting point is 00:57:29 through previously in your life. Absolutely. And that's one of the misconceptions about Olympians, quote unquote, you know, or high performers, you know, is, you had it easy. You know, look at your life, you know, you are an Olympian, like you have no worries, you know. And yeah, right. You know, and I mean, I've been up endless nights crying my eyes out of like, who am I and what am I doing? I mean, right after the Olympics was the lowest time of my entire. life. I bet. And sure, I, you know, had a great upbringing and a beautiful family and, you know,

Starting point is 00:58:10 supportive siblings. I mean, my brother was an Olympian too. And he's my best friend and was the, one of the most influential people in my entire life, you know, and still is. And, you know, here I am with all these amazing friends and beautiful life, but then I'm on the floor of my bathroom bawling my eyes out for months. Wow. You know? And I mean, I mean, not every night. I'm not, I'm being a little, you know, but you know, you have, you have your moments. I had a handful of those moments like, what? You know, like now that the whole honeymoon is over, like, what? Like, you know, and there's not even words to describe it. And some people struggle more than others, you know, and I think that's the other thing. Yeah, I was just going to say, do you think

Starting point is 00:58:56 your reaction post-Olympics is normal for other Olympians? Like, yeah, because I, like, I, would never, ever, all I would think post-Olympics, this is what I think. And I've played, you know, athletics. So I understand. So I get parts of it, but I don't get the Olympics. The, I would think it would be like the greatest time of your life. Maybe there's opportunity and money and, and great people to me. I mean, you know, either you're a celebrity, like all of these things. You would think from the outside that that would be the best, literally the best time of your life. Oh, yeah. And it was. That's the thing. And that's the whole. issue around it is that it was the best time of my life and the worst time in my life.

Starting point is 00:59:37 And so how's that possible? I don't know. Isn't that crazy though? Yeah. I mean, I struggled to kind of wrap my mind around that. Well, because as an athlete and everybody can attest to this that is listening that, you know, if you're a former athlete and have to be in front of the cameras after a race or before a race or here or there, you're scripted. I mean, you're saying things, you're pretty darn good at the facade, right?

Starting point is 01:00:06 You're pretty darn good at, yes, it was a great, like, congratulate, you know, you're pretty darn good at the script at that point. Now, you know, the whole vulnerability thing is becoming more apparent now. But back in 2008, when there wasn't even, no one even took videos or had Instagram or anything, you know, vulnerability was not as big of a thing. Like, you're scripted, you know, you're in front of it and you have to act a certain way and say certain things, you know, because that's what you've been taught. And that's what we were taught to do.

Starting point is 01:00:34 But so afterwards, you're completely in that phase still, right? Like, I'm good. I'm fine. I'm great. Right? And then you go home and you close your door and you're like, oh, my God. Like what? You know, and I don't want to tell anyone.

Starting point is 01:00:48 And I don't want to tell anyone. And I don't want anyone to know because it's a weakness. It's a weakness. This is terrible. And, you know, it's something that we do with the athletes now. It is helpful because going through all of that is really, helpful now when we're coaching other athletes. Because if they're going through a hard time, we've been there. And I can't even tell you how many athletes go through it. And a lot of my best

Starting point is 01:01:14 friends. I mean, right now I can literally think of two handfuls of people that have been in that position and gone through depression after something like that and seek counseling or go through that support system because you're in this amazing phase of your life. But then at the same time, it's coming down off of something so high. And it's, am I ever going to be that again? Am I ever going to succeed like that again? Will I ever feel that way ever again? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:01:39 It's tough. This is, this is so good. I think we're going to have to do it again at some point, Caroline, but I've loved having this conversation with you and getting to know you. It's been really cool. The fact that you're so open and willing to share some of the really, not just the highs of standing on the podium representing our country,

Starting point is 01:01:57 but also some of the really tough moments that can be, that can lead up to that as well as can follow. So I appreciate it. I really do. You've listened to the show. And so you know my question that I like to ask at the end is, is so actually I'll ask a little bit differently. When you first heard of my show, and my name is exactly sure how you did. I know you kind of put some things of all places on Instagram about that you were listening to my show.

Starting point is 01:02:24 And I didn't even know you at that point. Oh, yeah, I know. Which was pretty cool. I was like, who is this? And I looked in. I was like, wow, this is neat. But anyway, you put that on there. So you first heard of the show.

Starting point is 01:02:32 What, like, what made you want to listen? And then why did you, you know, I assume you liked the phrase learning leader. So what was it about that that attracted you? So I first heard of it through Nick DeNardo. And I had done a podcast. By the way, great, great guy. Great guy. I love Nick.

Starting point is 01:02:48 Oh my gosh. He's been so, so helpful with our Rides Life podcast that we're starting come late fall. But he and he just has such incredible things say, about you, by the way. But I heard about it through him. And I remember just typing in the iTunes bar, you know, leader. And yours was the first that came up because I really wanted to tap into this leadership mindset for what we teach. And I also was exploring, you know, what kind of leader am I? Like, who am I as a leader? And so I think what spawned at all was a podcast from Elizabeth Gilbert. And it was on, she was doing interviews and she was interviewing someone about their leadership

Starting point is 01:03:29 ability within their company or whatever it was. And I was like, you know, this is really starting to interest me. So yeah, that's how I found out. And I think the first one I listened to, what did I tell you the other day? Aaron Walker or, uh, cow. Uh, yes. Oh my God. And that's like my new favorite thing. Like, I mean, shout out to. So the reason Cal is not listening. Uh, and he's not on any social media because he's doing deep work. Yeah, exactly. Right. He's nowhere to be found. He's in his, He's in his element or he's teaching. That's what Kyle does. He's writing or teaching.

Starting point is 01:04:01 So I've been lucky to get the email with him quite a bit. I love Kyle Newport. He's one of my all-time favorites. Yeah. So, you know, Cal Newport's Deep Work 1 and I was just like, this is epic. So I then immediately, Cal, hope you know that I made that my tagline on my email. Like in order to make room for deep work, I will respond to email between nine and four. No, I saw that.

Starting point is 01:04:23 I remember when I said, I think I even commented on it to you. I was like, all right, this, she gets. It's it. This is good. And sometimes, you know, when I'm slipping up a little and emailing at, oh, like, you know, 7, 8 p.m. You know, someone will email me back like, Caroline. You're supposed to be doing deep work.

Starting point is 01:04:36 And I'm like, well, my deep work is probably watching a Netflix episode of New Girl. So maybe I should go ahead and get back to my deep work here. Yeah, exactly. Well, no, cool. This has been so cool. I really appreciate it. Where would you send everyone listening to find more about you online? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:04:53 So my Instagram is Instagram and. Twitter, which I'm not super duper active on, however, getting back to it, are at Caro Burkle. So C-A-R-O and then Burkle with a B-R-C-K-L-E. Facebook on my Facebook page, which is Facebook slash Carol Burkle. And then my personal website is Caroline Burkle.com. And then Rise Eliteathletes.com is our athlete mentoring platform website. Awesome. Thanks again, Caroline, for being here.

Starting point is 01:05:26 This has been so good. really appreciate it. Absolutely. And good luck on your swim. I'm really stoked for you. Well, we'll be talking, obviously. All right. Thanks, Ryan.

Starting point is 01:05:36 All right. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to Learning Leadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again and we'll see you next time on the Learning Leader Show.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 138: Caroline Burckle – How To Use Visualization Like An Olympian

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