The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 140: Carol Dweck - The Power Of A Growth Mindset

Episode Date: July 10, 2016

Episode 140: Carol Dweck - The Power Of A Growth Mindset Dr. Carol Dweck's work is the foundation for what it means to be a learning leader. To be in a constant state of improvement... "In a fixed mindset students believe their basic abilities, their intelligence, their talents, are just fixed traits. They have a certain amount and that's that, and then their goal becomes to look smart all the time and never look dumb. In a growth mindset students understand that their talents and abilities can be developed through effort, good teaching and persistence. They don't necessarily think everyone's the same or anyone can be Einstein, but they believe everyone can get smarter if they work at it." Mindset is a simple idea discovered by world-renowned Stanford University psychologist Carol Dweck in decades of research on achievement and success—a simple idea that makes all the difference. Teaching a growth mindset creates motivation and productivity in the worlds of business, education, and sports. Episode 140: Carol Dweck - The Power Of A Growth Mindset Subscribe on iTunes  or Stitcher Radio The Learning Leader Show "Growth mindset leaders want to be challenged." In This Episode, You Will Learn: Focusing on growth -- having a desire for a challenge and learning from setbacks leads to sustained excellence People with a fixed mindset are afraid to find out that they aren't very smart Growth mindset leaders want to be challenged Fixed mindset leaders have a deep seated insecurity. They have to keep showing that they're a genius. Don't declare that you have a growth mindset -- Instead figure out what triggers you into having a fixed mindset. Start there. Questions to ask people in an interview to understand their mindset Sharing credit or taking it all for yourself? It shows a lot about your mindset When was the last time you were wrong? (It should be often) "Don't praise the intelligence. Praise the process." Do NOT reward children for getting straight A's Taking the stairs -- Develop Grit  Be aware that doing something the hard way will benefit you (and your children) "I want your listeners to do something way outside of their comfort zone..." Why as a young manager you need to focus on collaboration -- Ask others for help Learning Leader = "I loved it. Merging of Learning and Leadership. Helping others learn. Serving them. "I have always been deeply moved by outstanding achievement and saddened by wasted potential." Continue Learning: Go To: MindsetOnline.com  Follow Carol's thoughts on Twitter: @mindsetworks  Read: Mindset - The New Psychology of Success  To Follow Me on Twitter: @RyanHawk12 You may also like these episodes: Episode 078: Kat Cole – From Hooters Waitress To President of Cinnabon Episode 082: Dan Pink – The Science of Motivation, Legendary Writer & Ted Talk Episode 086: Seth Godin – How To Become Indispensable & Build Your Tribe Episode 107: Simon Sinek – Leadership: It Starts With Why Did you enjoy the podcast? If you enjoyed hearing Carol Dweck on the show, please don't hesitate to send me a note on Twitter or email me. Episode edited by the great J Scott Donnell Bio From MindsetOnline.com Carol S. Dweck, Ph.D., is one of the world's leading researchers in the field of motivation and is the Lewis and Virginia Eaton Professor of Psychology at Stanford University. Her research has focused on why people succeed and how to foster success. She has held professorships at Columbia and Harvard Universities, has lectured all over the world, and has been elected to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. Her scholarly book Self-Theories: Their Role in Motivation, Personality, and Development was named Book of the Year by the World Education Federation. Her work has been featured in such publications as The New Yorker, Time, The New York Times, The Washington Post, and The Boston Globe, and she has appeared on Today and 20/20.

I want your listeners not to do a small thing. I want them to do something outrageously growth mindset. I give this assignment to my students. They have to do something way, way, way out of their comfort zone in an area that they really value, taking them more toward the person they want to be, something outrageously growth mindset, way out of their comfort zone. and time after time, they're amazed that they can do it. Are leaders born or are they made?

Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. This episode is brought to you by Deor. If you've gone to learning leader.com recently, you've noticed a massive upgrade. This is in thanks to the great leaders at Dejore Design. So if you're looking for a new website, website update, SEO, social media, email campaigns,

or perhaps you need to create a logo for yourself or your business. So you're looking to redesign your logo. I cannot emphasize enough how great the people are at Deior Design to work with. I personally do not endorse or allow sponsorships of this podcast for people who I do not either buy their products or utilize them for their services. And that is why I'm so excited to partner with DeOOr Design to sponsor the Learning Leader Show. So go to learningleader.com slash website. That's learningleader.com slash website. We'll get you connected directly with the people at DeOor Design and get a good deal for you.

I promise you guys will enjoy it. learning leader.com slash website. Hey, and welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. I'm excited for this one. It's been more than a year in the works with Dr. Carol Dweck. She's one of the world's leading researchers in the field of motivation at Stanford.

Her research has focused on why people succeed and how to foster success. She has held professorships at Columbia and Harvard universities and has lectured all over the world. Her primary research interests are in motivation, personality, and development. Her key contribution to social psychology relates to implicit theories of intelligence per her book, Mindset, the new psychology of success. This is one of my all-time favorite books, the bedrock for what this podcast is all about. Longtime listeners know I've spoken about it a lot.

Few of the topics we got into. The difference between a fixed and a growth mindset and what the best leaders possess. and then why you should not reward your children for getting straight A's, followed up by the number one mistake young leaders make and how to avoid it. Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, it's Dr. Carol Dweck. Carol, I am so excited to have you here on The Learning Leaders Show. I've been a huge fan of your work for quite some time. I got a question around sustained excellence.

You have studied leaders and people. who have done a phenomenal job of sustaining excellence over an extended period of time. I'm curious from your perspective. What are the common virtues that those people all seem to share? The one thing that I've seen over and over and over again is this focus on growth, desire for challenge and ability to sustain work in the face of obstacles and setbacks, tremendous learning from setbacks, and especially in today's world where everything is changing.

Constantly, you can't do the same things over and over. You have to welcome that change and grow into it. Who are immediately the first people that come to mind when you think of excellence in sustaining it? Oh, there are so many people. There are fantastic leaders of organizations like Lou Gersner and Ann Mulcahy who brought Xerox and IBM back. I write about them in my book. There are amazing athletes, many of whom we're seeing now in the hockey and basketball finals.

Yeah. There are amazing scientists. Yeah. Ediston, Einstein, Marie Curie, who wouldn't love. let go. They had to deeply understand something. And believe me in science, there are so many setbacks and so many people saying you're wrong. So that kind of focus on growth and learning is absolutely essential. Do you, actually, if somebody walked up to you, Carol, and said, hey, and they didn't know you, and they say, what do you do? How do you respond? I say, I'm,

I'm a researcher. I'm a psychologist. And I study why people succeed. It's a, just a topic that I think elicits so many thoughts. And so, again, this is kind of similar to the first question, I guess. But you say you study why people succeed. So you're probably asked that all the time. And I'm guessing the answer, I would have.

assume is evolving over time, right? I mean, you have a, if anyone I know in the world probably has a growth mindset, I'm guessing it would be you. So usually if you do, you're going to, your answers, you're willing to change your mind, right? You're willing to evolve. So as of today, you know, we're sitting here in mid-2016, why are some people successful and some aren't? Well, I come at it from the perspective of mindsets. I come at it. I come at it. from the perspective and from my research findings that people have different beliefs about their basic ability. Some people think they're fixed. You have a certain amount and that's it. And that's a really limiting belief because you're afraid to find out you don't have a lot or you don't have

as much as you thought or you're afraid of other people thinking you're not as smart as you want them to think it's very limiting. And also when you have setbacks, you think, oh, maybe I don't have the ability. But other people believe even your basic abilities can be developed through hard work, good strategy, lots of help and mentoring from others. And this is a liberating idea because it doesn't promise you you're going to succeed. It doesn't promise you how far you can grow your abilities. But because everybody can grow their abilities, it allows you to take on challenges in order to do so. It allows you to stick to them because that's part of learning. It allows you to manage setbacks because they tell you what you should and shouldn't do on

the next try. They don't label your underlying permanent. So that's the perspective that I come from, this idea that the beliefs we hold are tremendously powerful. Do you personally work with CEOs or leaders of companies? Yes, I have. You have? So meaning like in a one-on-one basis where you will go in and try to help them or what's that setup look like? Either I work with them or I advise them on policies in their company or I go into the company and work with people in the company.

So if you had to just do a random poll of those interactions, I'm curious, you'll notice I'm curious a lot. I'm wondering how many of the CEOs that you've had the privilege to work with have fixed mindsets? Like what percentage? Well, you have to understand that I have a biased sample. Well, I mean, I assume that maybe the people who contact me are interested in developing more of a growth mindset in themselves and in their company. So, yeah, I guess it would be better if maybe you were hired by somebody else to help a CEO who maybe didn't.

So that might be framed a little bit better. The reason, Carol, I asked that question, though, is because, you know, I've tried to study leaders of businesses, entrepreneurs, all different types all the time. I speak with a lot of them as well, both on the podcast. It's your impression. Well, I'm glad, yeah. So I think when it comes to certain people and certain leaders, they feel a need to be decisive. They think decisiveness is this great quality in a leader. However, that when it goes awry, so to speak, is when they make a quick snap decision and have no willing.

willingness to change their mind. Yes, so that's really interesting because being decisive doesn't mean being a know-it-all. Right. And in my book, Mindset, I talk about fixed mindset leaders who are know-it-alls, do not admit when they're wrong, do not learn from setbacks, are threatened by their own staff. who may be right when they're wrong, who may be threatening to take their place in some way. In contrast, the growth mindset leaders want to be questioned. Every leader has to be decisive, but they really want every possible criticism

before they make their decision. And after they make a decision, which again they need they need to take action they analyze it whether it was successful or not what did I learn from the success what did I learn from the failure how do you think people rise to that position if they because I mean it to me I think the theme once you you read mindset I've read it multiple times it's really the foundation for a lot of my beliefs I mean it's one of the foundations. This show is called The Learning Leader Show. It's about studying the art and science of leadership and constantly willing to have my mind change. Like I've noticed, like even there's quotes

that Elon Musk has out there, which some would say he's one of the most incredible minds of our time, right? He's going to help put people on Mars. He's creating electric cars, all of these great things. And Elon says, always assume that you're wrong. Just try to be less wrong. So he's always, He's got the ultimate growth mindset when it comes to learning and improvement. And I think that comes from the leaders who are decisive but don't change their mind, Carol, I think are the ones who have some deep-seated insecurities. And I wonder where that comes from. I think that comes from fixed mindset because if you think that you have a certain amount of ability and that's it, then you have to keep shit. showing you're a genius.

And if you admit you were wrong about something or someone smarter than you, you're not the genius. There's also this idea that if you're a genius, everything you do should be right. Everything should come easily to you. And I agree with Elon Musk. We have to be wrong. We don't know everything there is to know. what we know today is going to be laughed at tomorrow. We have to be wrong and we have to know it as quickly as possible.

Have you worked with Elon? I have not. Oh man, that would be a cool little dynamic between you two. I guess he already, I feel like, embodies a lot of what you've researched and what you... Yes. Yeah, you know, it really feels like that. A lot of the greats seem to do it. That's why I think when somebody reads, like, oh, yeah, of course it makes sense.

I'm going to have a growth mindset. I will. But then when it comes to putting it into action, people struggle because what you just said was right. They really want to show, like, I'm not going to ask that question because it might make me look stupid or I have to continually prove that I know everything. Exactly. And that brings up an extremely important point, which is that we're all a mixture.

And I agree with you 100% when we sit and hear about a growth mindset. You say, yeah, I love learning. I changed this and that. I grew this and that. Sure, I have a growth mindset. But every single one of us, including me, is a mixture. When we confront difficult situations, we can be triggered. to a fixed mindset.

When we're way out of our comfort zone, we may worry about looking stupid or being stupid or incompetent, untalented. When we actually fail, when we see someone who's much better than we are, at something we pride ourselves on, all of these things, when we're under pressure to meet a deadline,

all of these things can trigger us. us into a state where we feel our abilities are fixed and they're going to be judged. And most frighteningly, they may be judged to be inadequate. So now we tell people, don't declare you have a growth mindset, that you've always had a growth mindset, that you have a growth mindset across the board. cannot be true. Figure out your triggers. What do you mean by that? By triggers? Figure out what situations trigger you into a fixed mindset. What are the situations where that fixed mindset voice in your head says, watch out, you may look inadequate, you may look incompetent, whoops, look what

you did, people are going to think less of you. Whoops, look at that person. That's the really talented person. You're not. Listen to that voice in your head and understand that that is when you're in a fixed mindset. And a colleague of mine in Australia named Susan Mackie actually is teaching business executives not just to identify their physical. mindset triggers, not just to know when that voice, that fixed mindset person shows up, but to give that person a name. So I was with her. We were conducting a session with financial executives in Australia, and they were talking about

their fixed mindset personas by name. So one of them, the head of the whole unit, was saying, you know, when we have a tight deadline, Dwayne shows up. And Dwayne makes me really critical and picky and I undermine my team and I take the work away from them and they're miserable and I'm miserable. Even if we make the deadline, everybody feels bad. And everyone started talking about when their fixed mindset persona shows up and what it feels like, what it makes them do. And then how they're going to work with it over time to bring it on board with your growth mindset goals. You can't banish that fixed mindset. It won't go away like that.

you have to bring it on board with your growth mindset goals. I love it. I got a question for you for people who are in the position to make hiring decisions. And I'll briefly give my thoughts on this because I've been in this position before. So to me, I want to hire people, obviously, that have a growth mindset. People are willing to learn, to improve, to get better, to not be so insecure that they have to always know everything. Or at least, you know, have that perception about them. So to me, one of the best ways to find people with a growth mindset to hire, to work with me,

are listening and noticing the questions that they ask me in an interview, not necessarily what I ask them. And if they ask really thoughtful, thought-provoking questions that showed they were a great listener and that they're curious, curiosity leads to creativity, which I think leads to, to doing a good job regardless of the profession. That is one trigger or key for me that shows I like what this candidate is bringing to the table. What are some other ways that you have found for those people who are in leadership positions who have to make tough hiring decisions to hire people with a growth mindset? What are some either things to look for or questions to ask?

Yeah. One question is tell me about a big failure you had it. work or, you know, if they're out of school, in school. And it's really interesting because if they never had a failure, it's not that credible or they never really took on something major. Do they take responsibility for the failure? And do they learn something from it? I'd ask about successes too.

is the success coming out of their brilliance? Or, you know, did they have lots of false starts along the way? Do they share credit with other people? Or does it redound to their own great glory? Also recently, a colleague and I were thinking about it would be interesting to ask about their fixed mindset triggers to explain what they are and ask about their fixed mindset triggers. Are they willing to go there? Are they willing to say, yes, these are the situations where I become afraid of judgment

and maybe not willing to get feedback that I'm wrong? if they can talk about that, that's a good sign. What about, actually, I'm just going to ask you this. When's the last time you were wrong? Well, because I do research and I have research meetings constantly, and you're always throwing ideas out, I'm wrong all the time. I and I'm like gloriously wrong because I take a very strong position. Yeah.

When I'm arguing my side of things, my perspective, I take a very, very strong position. And then when I see the merits of the other side, I'll just cave. Yeah. Or I'll see how the two ideas fit together. Is there a big example of this that maybe you've printed something or you publish something and after the fact you're like, oh, I don't believe that anymore. Yeah, here's an example of something we always assumed was true. Okay.

And then recently learned that we were entirely wrong. Okay. We always thought that if parents, teachers, leaders, supervisors had a growth mindset, they would pretty naturally pass it on. That they would act and speak and treat others in ways that automatically conveyed and taught a growth mindset. And we're finding it doesn't happen as naturally as we thought. That there are things that pass on a growth mindset, but you have to do them. In addition to having a growth mindset, you have to react to people's failures in a very,

very learning mode. just very matter-of-factly, why did that happen? What can we do now? You can't just falsely reassure them or get anxious or have all that judgment in there. You have to sit with them and figure out how to go forward. When they succeed, you have to focus on the process. What led to that success? What led to the learning?

What led to the growth? So that focus on growth, that explicit focus on growth, whether someone is succeeding or not succeeding, conveys the growth mindset more than just having it in your head for yourself. Okay, I'm glad you want to hear. So speaking about, let's think of children at this point, both as students and their schoolwork, as well as parents, because there's a lot of work out. I've read a lot about this as a parent myself. So you just said, don't basically don't praise intelligence, praise the process.

Yes. Right. The child's strategy, their hard work, their focus, and tie it to the progress. Don't just praise it out of thin air. Tie it to their learning and progress. Yeah, so what I'm saying is a parent can have a growth mindset, but think that praising intelligence will give their child confidence. And instead of giving them child confidence, it gives their child a fixed mindset inadvertently. So we, again, we used to think, oh, a parent with a growth mindset would pass it on pretty automatically.

But now we're seeing they may have different ideas about what's good for their kids. But those practices may create a fixed mindset instead. What do you think about parents who reward their kids with gifts and money for getting straight A's? Well, I haven't personally done research on that. but the research suggests that you can undermine your child's, we call it, intrinsic motivation, that the learning and the desire to learn that comes from within. So research suggests that when you give a concrete, tangible reward, the child thinks, well, that's why I'm trying to do well, not because I enjoy learning or evaluate,

it or feel that it will make me a person who will make a contribution later. But I want those presents. So it's preferable, I believe, to show your pleasure that the child has learned and talk to them about what they've learned and how they've learned and have that be the child's internalized value. Jessica Leahy's done some fantastic research on this. I had her on this podcast. We discussed it, and she is adamantly against rewarding children with a pizza party

or money for getting straight A's and the research backs it up. It's not an opinion. It's not an opinion. No. The research shows that. What I've found and how I've kind of shifted in that paradigm is two places to where I could, you know, have conversations with children. The parent-teacher conferences where I'm going to ask specific questions about how my daughter treats her peers, how she treats her teacher, how she interacts with children.

Does she show them respect? Does she work hard? Does she get her things done on time? Not necessarily, and the grades are obviously important. I mean, you want to do well, but that's not as important to me as the comment section of a report card or the parent-teacher conference where you're going to be able to have those conversations. To me, it's more. important for that than it is to get the straight A's. Yes. And sometimes people think a growth mindset is not caring about the outcome or not setting high standards.

And that's not correct. You can have a teacher can set very rigorous learning standards, but you focus on the process of learning. And when kids are deep and effective learners, the grades and the test scores follow. They're a natural consequence of learning. The best schools in the country and in the world are the schools that focus on learning. And then the kids do well on the tests. But they're avid learners.

And also, I'm really passionate about this. focusing on tests, grades and test scores is not getting kids ready for today's world. Totally not. Creative thinking, deep learning, curiosity, pursuing something doggedly, grittily. This is what kids need to take on the world. I see so many kids who have been groomed to get A's and to get. high test scores and get into this one right school. And then when school's over, they don't know what to do.

They go home again. Or they take a job where they can get the next A, the next A, the next piece of praise. We need people who can take on the world. You can look at the problems and needs in the world and feel like I can make a difference. Absolutely. Now, there's been some research, too, when it comes to, I read a lot of Adam Grant's work, had him on this podcast. He's one of my favorite thinkers. I know you guys are familiar with each other's work. So let's take it back to children again as far as how we talk to them. So we just talked about the fact that it's important to praise the process, not necessarily the intelligence level of a child. But when it comes to, I don't know the best word to use. Let's just say, say when a child does something nice, let's say they are generous. There are, there's, there's, I want to, I'm really curious to get your thought on this research out there because I've, read, read about it, because obviously as a parent, you're, this is important to me. The proper

phrase isn't necessarily, oh, that was a nice thing to do. That's praising the action. The, when it comes to praising this, this is, this is some of Adam's work, you should say, wow, you are a very nice person because then they take ownership of being nice and that's not being fixed because it's different and so here there's like this this really fine line I know I'm kind of getting to Samantha too yeah Adam and I have discussed this okay and I think there's more work to be done because if you say to a child and we've done we've actually done this work with kindergartners if you say to a child oh you're a good boy or a good boy or a good good girl and then they mess up or they do something they make mistakes or they do something selfish

or something they feel is bad the danger is they'll say oh i'm not a nice person because what you've taught them is you are a nice person or you aren't a nice person yeah and what you want to teach them is the value of acting in a caring way so again more work needs to be done because I still feel that putting a label on someone means some people are nice, some people aren't. And then if the child, and all children are going to act sometimes in an impulsive mean or uncaring way, and you don't want them to then go to the flip side. I'm a bad person. And in our research with young kids, we find that when you start using good, good, good, they flip to. bad when something goes wrong.

So, yeah, it's still a gray area. It's really interesting. I'm happy that more research will be done on that because I think it's, when I initially read it, I was like, wait a second, this feels like a fixed mindset towards it. But then all the research that backed it up because the kids would take ownership of that and then it would create more positive actions from it. Yes. And it was thought to be the character.

case with praising intelligence initially. But then what you have to do is give them something super hard. You have to look at what happens when things go bad. Do they go to the flip side? Right after you tell them they're smart, they love it. Right after you tell them they're good, they want to act in a good way. But what happens when they mess up or do something wrong? That's what you have to look at in the experiments.

You talk a lot about just then and before I was thinking about this prior to our time together. And a very small change that I implemented, but it actually has some meaning to me because it makes me think after I initially read mindset was that I don't take elevators anymore. I take the stairs. And because you talk about the joy or how you. you should strive to do the hard things, even when it comes to something as simple as walking up a few flights of stairs as opposed to getting on the elevator. And for me, I don't know. Like, I'm not saying it's changed my life, that one small thing of never taking an elevator.

But it does make me think about it a little bit every single time I have that choice. So I do. I have the choice all the time. And I choose to go to take the tougher route. And it makes you think. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. I have a funny story along those lines. one of my wonderful former students, David Yeager, was, it was just a really hot day.

He was hiking with his daughter on his shoulders and it was all uphill. And, you know, he was just feeling drained and overheated. And then he kind of muttered, I think I'll take the easier path here. And his daughter yelled, no, no. Oh, it's not good to do the easy thing. It's good to do the hard thing. We have to do the hard one. So he had taught her.

And, you know, it stood her in good stead to do the somewhat harder puzzles or the somewhat harder task. But it backfired for him on that occasion where he wanted to not be as hot, sweaty, and exhausted. But in general, I think we should be aware. I think the great thing about your story is we should absolutely be aware when doing something harder will benefit us. Just keep that in mind. We have choices constantly when doing something harder, doing the harder task, doing the harder, thing is going to help us develop skills physically, mentally, spiritually. When would be an example of a time we're doing the easy thing is the right choice?

I think we have to balance. We can't do. We only have so much time in the day. We need to do things. We need to do a lot of things efficiently. We have to figure out when, it matters. So people say to me, oh, the growth mindset can be really exhausting. You have to develop every single ability all the time. No. You set priorities. What do I really value? And is this extra degree of difficulty in this case going to move me towards something I value? agree. All right, Carol, so now I want to talk about the, but I think it's the most important thing. You know, one of my mentors, Joey Coleman, told me when you give a speech, there are a few things that can happen. You can change the way people think, change the way they feel, but most importantly, you want to change the way that they act and what they put into practice.

So I'm thinking of the average listener here. You and I discussed who that demographic is. Usually they're pretty wise individuals who have typically leaned towards having growth mindsets on that scale from fixed to growth. These types of people, I'm in this group, these types of people, we do a great job, usually of reading, listening to podcasts, going to listen to speakers, seminars, whatever it may be, and taking notes, really trying to, I guess, take in great knowledge. My question is, how do we implement? and execute, meaning what are some specific things that the average person right now could do?

Like I mentioned a very small one instead of taking the elevator, take the stairs. But what are some others, things that people could implement in their life right now where it will make a difference? I want your listeners not to do a small thing. I want them to do something outrageously growth mindset. I give this assignment to my students. They have to do something way, way, way out of their company. comfort zone in an area that they really value, taking them more toward the person they want to be, something outrageously growth mindset, way out of their comfort zone.

And time after time, they're amazed that they can do it and that it brings them rewards and sets them on a path. So in one case, a Stanford student who was painfully shy, he was a freshman, he was painfully shy, the whole Stanford experience was passing him by, he ran for president of his dorm. And one, he became the center of social life in his dorm. Students who have been rejected from organizations go there and reapply people who thought of themselves as totally unathletic or totally ungraceful go sign up for lessons or informal teams so and in every single case, they're shocked at the fact that they can do it and the benefits, they reap from it. And I'm not saying in every single case it works out.

But even in cases that didn't work out initially, they saw they could do that. They saw the world didn't end. And they did it again and again and again. So something outrageously growth mindset that brings you closer to the person you want to be, something you've always wanted to do, do it. How about you? When's the last time you've done this? I do it a lot. What's the example of the time where like it was so crazy?

You've been writing mindset. Was it? At the time I wrote mindset, academics, professors were. were not writing popular books. And I also wrote it in a way that was not academic. Yeah. But all the time, I mean, last year I addressed the United Nations. Really?

That was way out of my comfort zone. How was that? It was great. I'm developing new theories way out of my comfort zone. I had to give a talk on something about my new theory to a very tough audience that I admired. I worked 60 to 80 hours on that talk. Wow. Way.

And I still thought, am I crazy? Shouldn't I do something simple and safe? Something I'm totally on top of. And the thing is, there's a way in which if you really live a great, growth mindset? What is your comfort zone changes? But you always want to be pushing that boundary or it's boring. You want to be pushing that boundary. That is the new comfort zone in a way. You brought up speaking. This is one way that I'm really pushing my personally pushing myself is to put it out there that this is something I've started to do more. It started because people

asked me to do it because of this podcast actually. And now I am actively seeking. out opportunities and have been afforded some incredible ones that I never would have dreamed of. And now it's like I want to do more, more, more, because I think to me, you know, it's two parts. One, initially, the thought of doing it was incredibly uncomfortable for more of an introverted guy like myself, a guy who's, when I'm out of party, I'm not the guy to speak up. When I'm in a group meeting, I don't speak up. That's just not comfortable for me. So speaking in front of hundreds or even thousands of people is really uncomfortable, but it feels phenomenal when it's like in the middle of it and when I get done.

Leading up to it, I don't really feel as good. But that's one thing. And two, like for me, I'm a former athlete. I played in front of hundreds of thousands of people, like, but I was wearing a football helmet and I had teammates with me. So it was a little bit different. And this, and it's hard to mimic that feeling of playing in front of hundreds of thousands of people on TV or whatever it may be.

And giving speeches is one way to get kind of close. to doing that. And I think for people listening, I love that that's your advice is to think of whatever that may be for you. And think of maybe if what it is could be something that could impact others in a positive way,

but be maybe uncomfortable for you. If you go and do it, I would love to hear from you. I'd love people to send me an email at learning leader.com because it would mean the world to me to hear that some of Carol's work and what we're talking about here

has had an impact on people because that's my word, Carol for the year for moving forward. It's impact. What can we do to help? Impact contribution, helping others. That's what it's all about. Yeah, exactly.

And it really is. And it means a lot to me to have you here sharing that with me because I think your work has had just such an impact on me. You know, even at the very beginning of mindset, I wanted to just read this because it It kind of sets the stage for your book. And obviously, for those you haven't read it, mindset, the new psychology of success, it's not new, actually. A lot of the books I speak out on here are new. This is not a new book, but it is a, it's basically the, we'll lay the foundation for you as a leader, I think.

But here's a quote. A few modern philosophers assert that an individual's intelligence is a fixed quantity, a quantity which cannot be increased. We must protest and react against this. brutal pessimism with practice, training, and above all method, we managed to increase our attention, our memory, our judgment, and literally to become more intelligent than we were before. I love that quote, Carol, that you put at the beginning of your book. I put it at the beginning, and I think people will be shocked to know who said that. It's a quote from Alfred Bnay, the man who invented the I.K.

test. Yeah. He did not believe in fixed intelligence. He was just creating a test to see who wasn't on track, who wasn't performing at grade level. He was shocked when people started using it to measure intelligence and say it was fixed. Yeah. It's just a great way to get the whole book kicked off.

I'd urge, like I said, if you haven't read it, to go and do so because it's important work. And I think leaders, especially we talked about it earlier, when they make decisive actions, what's all leaders need to do, but then aren't willing to say maybe I got it wrong and change their mind. I think that the mark of a strong leader is when they're willing to change their mind. They're not a flip-flopper. They're not weak. But having the willingness to say, I found a better way and maybe, and to hire others around, you, surround yourself with those types of people who are willing to tell you that you're wrong

and that there is a better way is the mark of a great leader. And if you're a leader, if you're in a leadership position right now and you are not surrounded by people who are smarter than you, who are willing to tell you're wrong, I'm not trying to pass judgment, but I would say that you are probably going to struggle. And that's not a good method. That actually brings up a question, Carol. You've studied this. Let's look at like young managers in business. Mm-hmm.

What are some of the biggest mistakes you found that they make? Yes. One really big mistake is they feel like, oh, now I'm a manager. I have to know everything. Yeah. People come to me and ask a question. I have to know the answer. I have to tell them something.

And so a couple years back, I spoke to an assembly of new managers, and I said, no, your job is to collaborate with your employees to find answers and to keep learning together. You will never have all the answers. You're not going from someone who didn't have the answers to someone who has all the answers. Collaborate. Ask other managers. Work together with your employees. And it turns out, them they wrote, I got word that in this very large company, this was the best group of managers they ever had. Because first of all, you could hear them breathe that huge sigh of relief.

But then they did. They formed a cohort. They worked with each other. They didn't see themselves as being at some pinnacle where they had to have God-like knowledge. It just works better when you have a learning process that everyone participates in. And another piece of advice that I made this mistake a lot, use the phrase, I don't know. It's okay. It's okay to use the phrase I don't know because people who are afraid to say they don't know, it's fine.

You can figure it out when you'll learn. My students always come to me and they say, oh, what should we do? I say my thing is let's figure it out. Yeah, let's figure it out. I love it. Carol, again, thank you so much for investing your time with me. It means so much to me. You're a hero of mine.

You really are. and the work that you've done, the research is, I was just so excited to have this conversation. You've even exceeded my extremely high expectation. So thank you. One more question. When you, I initially reached out, I think, quite some time ago, and you're in the middle of a lot of other deep work, as Kyle Newport would say. And so we weren't able to do it for quite some time.

But now that we have, when I first reached out and you heard the phrase learning leader, what was the first thought that popped into your mind? I loved it. I loved it because it, the merging of learning with leadership. So leadership is about learning, leadership is about helping others learn. And your whole ethic of learning, service, contribution, I think is embodied in that phrase. That's awesome. I appreciate that. And thank you.

Where would you send the listeners, the great listeners here at the Learning Leaders Show to find more out about you online? I have a website called mindsetonline.com. Mindsetonline, one word. Dot com. Okay. Great. What's next for you, by the way? Well, lots of.

things. We're doing a lot of work in organizations, startups, and large organizations that we're very excited about. We're applying a mindset approach to things like willpower and conflict resolution. So it keeps going. Awesome. Awesome. Well, thanks again, Carol, for being here. I really appreciate

and I had a lot of fun. Me too. All right, thank you. Bye. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to LearningLeadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO,

world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on The Learning Leader Show. Thank you.