The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 143: Chad Estis - SVP For The Dallas Cowboys: Working For Jerry Jones

Starting point is 00:00:00 Number one is you need to be good in your current job. It's rare that someone's going to tap you on the shoulder and say, hey, Ryan, I really think we should promote you here. But you've been failing in this entry-level job we've got you in, but we see all this potential. So, you know, there has to be a, stay present, be in your current role, study it hard, take your learning outside of the office, be committed, put the effort in, all the things that can just have you be competitive in that current job. We always tell our people you don't have to be the best salesperson. There's a leaderboard and we track sales. We do all that stuff. But it's not an automatic that the top two are getting promoted because there's a whole

Starting point is 00:00:39 another set of skills that I look to in particular for people at a future potential that are outside just your ability to sell. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other. successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to the Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. This episode is brought to you by Deior Design. If you've gone to learning leader.com recently, you've noticed a massive upgrade. This is in thanks to the great leaders at

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Starting point is 00:02:08 I promise you guys will enjoy it. Learningleader.com slash website. Hey, and welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk, and thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. What a thrill was to speak with our featured leader tonight. Chad Estes. Chad was recruited by Jerry Jones, Jr. and family with the Dallas Cowboys

Starting point is 00:02:33 to come run their sales organization. He took the role and then led stadium sales efforts for AT&T Stadium from 2007 to 2000. where he guided a sales team of 60 people that set industry records for both PSL and sweet sales revenue. Currently, Chad holds concurrent roles with the Dallas Cowboys and Legends Global Sales as the executive vice president of business operations and president respectively. An incredible career over the last 20 years. We took it way back to Chad's very first job, making 80 to 100 calls a day, earning $16,000 a year, having to move. back in with his parents to all the way up to what he's doing now and everything in between.

Starting point is 00:03:15 It was incredible. A few of the things we got into us. The specific piece of advice he gives to those that he mentors on a regular basis. And then what it's like to work for Jerry Jones and family. And finally, the biggest mistake that young leaders make and how we all can avoid them. Ladies and gentlemen, so excited for Chad Estes. All right, Chad, so thrilled to have you here on the Learning Leader Show. I think your story is really going to resonate with so.

Starting point is 00:03:50 so many of the listeners of the show, as I mentioned to you before, because of a lot of people, I think they want to do what you've done and what you're currently doing. So I want to start this conversation off with a question I ask a lot of people because I think it's really important. And that's around common themes, characteristics, or virtues of people that you've been around, you've witnessed, you've studied, of those who sustain excellence over and an extended period of time, not the flash in the pans or the one hit wonders, but people that you've found that you've followed, maybe that have mentored you, what makes them up? What are they,

Starting point is 00:04:29 what are they all about? I love to hear from a guy like you who's achieved so much already at a young age. Sure, Ryan. Well, first of all, thanks for having me. I'm glad to be on the podcast. And you're right, I've been evaluating successful people in my whole career, my whole life, trying to emulate people that are having success. And I think a few things come into my mind. And I think a few things come into my mind right off the bat. One of the first ones is passion. I think people that I've seen that have had success typically have a really strong passion for what they're doing. And it's something that you can see interacting with them on a daily or a regular basis. And so, you know, that old saying of, you know, find yourself doing something that you're passionate about. I think there's some truth to that

Starting point is 00:05:12 if you can get yourself in position to be just really into what you're doing and put a passion to it every day, I think there's just a much better chance for sustained success. I think a second thing that comes to mind is optimism. I think people that generally go about their business in a way where they think things are going to work in their favor and the business's favor, I think that enables people to be more willing to take risks because they just believe in themselves or the people that they've put around them. And then I think that's just a good way for people to go about their day. I think People generally prefer being around people that are optimistic and carry themselves in that manner. And then a third that comes to mind for me is likeability.

Starting point is 00:05:56 I think leaders and people that are trying to do hard things in business and have big accomplishments, need a lot of really good people around them. And typically people would much prefer to charge up the hill or run through the wall for people they like. So I think that people that have that, you know, a personality and even work at that relationship aspect seem to have more success in my mind as well. When you think about people in your life or people you've studied that have an intense passion are very optimistic and are also extremely likable, who are the first few people that come to mind? Well, number one for me is Jerry Jones. And that may or may not surprise some people that are listening. But having spent nine years working very closely with him right now, he's just got all three of those nailed. First of all, the passion just oozes out of him. I mean, the first time I met him, I just thought there's nobody more passionate about this than him. And at the time we were talking about building what we hoped would become the greatest stadium. in the world and he just, I mean, he almost came out of his seat talking about it. And it was hard not to, it was just very contagious. It was just hard not to say, wow, you know, I could be a part

Starting point is 00:07:18 of something really big and look how excited he is as the owner of it. And he's always expressing optimism. I mean, somewhat, you know, you have to have cautious optimism, sometimes with big business decisions. But I always say about him, he can think bigger than anybody else. else I know. And sometimes when you're with him and he's got big ideas, you know, you're kind of like, wow, I just, my mind doesn't quite go as go that big. And then he has just this unbelievable conviction that we're going to figure out how to get it done. And that's just awesome to be around. It's, uh, it's his gift. And certainly I, I see that and try and emulate that, uh, when, when I'm in a position to do so. I love it, man. So good. Let's let's let's get into your story chat.

Starting point is 00:08:05 So when somebody who doesn't know you, maybe you're at a dinner party and they say, oh, Chad, nice to meet you. What do you do? How do you respond? Well, it's interesting because it's not the most simple answer. So my role with the Dallas Cowboys, I work closely with the Jones family. So it's Jerry, Stephen, Charlotte, and Jerry Jr. And it's a family-owned business. And I'm now in a role where I would say my main core responsibility.

Starting point is 00:08:35 is anything revenue related, but I kind of have a hand in all aspects of the business. But, you know, with a real emphasis on the areas that generate revenue, which is certainly a focus of our organization. And then I also have kind of a second job with a company that we started about eight years ago. It's called Legends, and it's a partnership between the Dallas Cowboys and the New York Yankees. And we're in the hospitality business, the outsource sales business, feasibility and research. all working on, for the most part, new stadiums, new arenas or renovations, and coming in and helping in and helping the process of the building of those facilities and then maximizing the revenue and then, of course, hospitality long term.

Starting point is 00:09:20 So I kind of bounce back and forth between both, so I've got a ton of variety and a lot to do. Wow. I mean, so for example, like one of the things you guys did do at Legends, I was reading up on the fact that they would hire you, another team, in this case I think I read was the San Francisco 49ers would hire you to sell suites and club seats for their newest stadium. Is that right? That's exactly right. So really what we did, Ryan, was we, so I led the sales project for AT&T Stadium when we sold PSLs and suites and hired about 70 people brand new to launch that

Starting point is 00:09:58 sales campaign, and we did that for three and a half years. And the success. we had out of that, off that project launched the global sales division of legends. And what we thought we had was a lot of talented people, a process around how to execute in that environment and a culture of a sales team that we had developed and created. And really that I had been working on my whole career and got to put it to the ultimate test with the Cowboys project. And we went out to the market to see if there was a need for that kind of service, outsourced sales execution and the premium space in sports had not really been created at that time. And the 49ers were trying to build a new stadium and trying to really finalize financing

Starting point is 00:10:42 and get their stadium project kicked off and launched. And I think we gave them a lot of confidence we could deliver the revenue that would make that project a success. And that was our first client. And since then, we've worked with probably five or six other NFL teams. We're working right now with probably six or seven colleges. We're doing the renovation projects at Notre Dame USC in Oklahoma. We've done racetracks.

Starting point is 00:11:08 We've worked with Churchill Downs, just a whole variety of things now. So it's been a really good run for that business and certainly continuing. What do you mean by a renovation project for a Notre Dame or USC? So those two football stadiums are receiving major renovations. And as part of those renovations, they're creating premium inventory that, didn't exist in the past. So, you know, if you've ever been to Notre Dame or the Coliseum at USC, it's bench seating throughout the whole stadium and that's it. And so now all the products that you've seen in these NFL stadiums, loge boxes and suites and club seats are being brought in.

Starting point is 00:11:43 And we come in and study, we do an analysis of what the market would support with those types of products. We help design them during the architectural process. We're not architects, but we get involved because ultimately we're going to go sell it. And then we put boots on the ground on those campuses to go out and work with some of the fundraising people as well on campus to go sell those products. And so it's just a whole process to help monetize and pay for the renovation through the sale of premium inventory. I got you. So what is your official title with the Cowboys and with Legend? So my title with the Cowboys is the EvP of Business Operations. And with Legends, I have an EVP title and I'm a board member. I was for about four years. I was for about four years.

Starting point is 00:12:27 years the president of the global sales division, but that was really capitalizing on most of my time. And then the Cowboys, a couple years ago, we launched a new project called The Star, which is our new mixed-use project, 91-acre mixed-use project for a new corporate headquarters and training center. So I then shifted back more toward the Cowboys, took on more responsibility there, gave up my responsibilities running the Global Sales Division, and took an EVP role. So that's kind of how that all worked out. Wow, I think the, when your brother, Ryan, who introduced us, I'm also guest number 80 on the Lording Leader show, who is such a good dude.

Starting point is 00:13:07 And all three of us are Ohio University grads. You getting your master's degree at OU as well. So that's we have that. My dad also went to Ohio University was a radio TV major originally. So there's a lot of OU love going on right now, Chad. Yeah. And so it was when Ryan first told me. me about you and what you did, I couldn't really get enough. I'm like, this is like the coolest

Starting point is 00:13:31 career arc and job that I've seen. So you just said, told me your title on all the incredible things that you guys do. Quite frankly, when, when, and this just tells you maybe my ignorance, but maybe this is common. I don't know. I didn't even realize a team would need people to sell season tickets. I just thought people would call in if they wanted season tickets, especially for a team like, well, any team really. Like, I know you worked with the Cavs when they had. when you guys drafted LeBron and the Cowboys, you hear of a one-point-whatever-billion-dollar stadium. You're like, okay, people will just buy tickets, but that's not really the reality of how ticket sales works, does it? Really, not at all.

Starting point is 00:14:09 And I'll tell you, I won't go there yet because you might ask me about it later. But when I was in college at Ohio University with no clue what I was going to do for a career, I had no idea that there was all this infrastructure and opportunity within the sports industry. and luckily kind of stumbled on to the Ohio University Sports Administration master's program, and it opened my eyes up to the potential to have a career in sports. And, you know, obviously sports had been a passion of mine, but to couple that with an interest in business, and that's exactly what it is. I mean, the nuts and bolts of what we do on a day-day basis are no different than any other business out there.

Starting point is 00:14:51 It's just, you know, we play on Sundays and we're on full display. and there's an awesome aspect of that of the company you work for is talked about in the news media every day. It's of interest to everybody. And then you walk into a stadium with 95,000 people. And you want to talk about being passionate about your team winning. Well, when that stars on your paycheck, you're a lot more passionate than you would be otherwise. And it makes it a lot of fun.

Starting point is 00:15:20 But back to your point about sales. Well, the fact of the matter is it takes a lot of great sales strategy, people, training, culture, everything you would ever think about what's needed in a great sales environment is needed in this environment. Some of it certainly comes down to what's being charged for these tickets. No one's calling in to spend $200,000 on personal seat licenses for anything anywhere. That's not a call in. Can I get your credit card over the phone? you know, what type of credit card would you like to use. And so these are big financial decisions by corporations and individuals now.

Starting point is 00:16:00 And we put a lot into how we present that to people. We're building out multi-million dollar sales centers, paying salespeople really good money to be really skilled, adding training, the marketing materials, the technology. There's a lot that goes into it. And, you know, if we were charging, you know, $75 a ticket for every game for the capital, We could have just sold them online, but that's not how that works. And really, I would say, Ryan, over my career, if I look back to when I started, what is it, 22 years ago, it's become a lot more complex. The pricing scheme is totally different. The inventory mix with premium inventory has exploded.

Starting point is 00:16:44 And so it takes some heavy, heavy lifting on the team side to ensure that you're capitalizing on the opportunity out in the market. So I'm thinking back, Chad, to the listeners here who were at the beginning stages of their career. And given my background, I think there are a lot of sports fans who listen to this show who also maybe they used to play and now they work in the business field. Similar to it, you and I, you happen to still work in sports, but it's the business side of things. Go back to the beginning 22 years ago. What was your first job? Maybe let's go through your first two. jobs. Walk me through how you got started. I know you played basketball at Ohio University,

Starting point is 00:17:27 won the Mac NCAA tournament, played with one of the greatest players, Gary Trent ever at OU. You know, had an incredible career, then got your master's degree, what, in 1994, I believe, in sport and administration, which is a great program at OU. But then what did you do following that? And how did you get this, I've used this phrase before, but you are on like a rocket ship type of a career. How did you get that started? So the first thing was that master's program. I was told in order to get into it. I had to get an internship.

Starting point is 00:18:00 And I used a family connection in Cleveland to, I applied and had some help getting my initial internship with the Cavaliers, which was the summer between my junior and senior year of school. And that was part of what I needed to apply for the master's program. And that internship did a few things. I developed some really good relationships. within the organization, the Cavaliers Organization. And secondly, it confirmed with me.

Starting point is 00:18:26 It gave me conviction that that was what I wanted to do. I got a pretty good look at, you know, what was happening within that organization and really on the sales side. And I said, man, this is pretty cool. I kind of like how that looks. And I think I'm headed in the right direction. And then coming out of the grad program, you know, I simply use the same relationship that I, not the family one now, the direct one with one of my mentors,

Starting point is 00:18:51 a gentleman named Jim Kaler, who was the chief marketing officer of the Cavaliers and in Ohio University sports ad grad. And Jim gave me my first job, which was a telemarketing rep in the ticket sales office for the Cavs. And the pay was $16,000 a year. And I had a sheet of paper in front of me every day with a bunch of phone numbers and names, a ruler and a highlighter and a phone. And zero training. I was given the pricing and a little bit about where the seats were located. And it was, you know, go ahead and make somewhere between 80 to 100 calls a day and bang it out. And I moved back into my parents' house because 16 grand a year wasn't cutting it. And they thought, you know, I remember my parents really one time sat me down and said, you have a master's degree.

Starting point is 00:19:36 Is this really what you should be doing? Is this right? Like, this is it. I'm like, this is how you start. And a little bit of a pay your dues type industry to get started. But I did that for just around a year. and then it's really kind of an interesting moment. Jim Kaler came to me and said, hey, I've got another opportunity and I thought maybe I'm getting promoted within the calves,

Starting point is 00:19:59 which is what I would have wanted. And he said, my recommendation is you go meet this woman by the name of Buffy Philippel who runs a business called Teamwork Consulting, which was an executive recruiting firm that specialized in the sports industry that she started from scratch and worked out of her home in Shaker Heights, Ohio, running it and was looking at. for someone to assist her. So I went out and met with Buffy and I was thinking there's no way that I'm doing this. I'm like, I'm working for the calves and now Jim's suggesting I go work in the basement of this woman's house and Shaker Heights, Ohio. I'm like, this is nuts. But anyways, in talking to Jim, he really encouraged me because he said the network that I'd be able to build

Starting point is 00:20:43 in that job, talking to people all across the country and all aspects of our industry. And he thought that would be really helped differentiate me over time. And so I did that job for two years. That company is now teamwork online, which is the number one recruiting website within the sports industry. If you're in the sports industry, everybody knows that website. And back then, we were taking fax resumes and I was inputting them into the computer a little different.

Starting point is 00:21:10 But that was a good experience for me. It did what Jim said. I'll admit it wasn't that enjoyable. It was long hours. It was her own business. Her name was basically on everything. And so she was very particular. It was hard and not the most fun time I've ever had working.

Starting point is 00:21:30 But I kind of saw that as a means to an end as to where I wanted to go. And after two years that I went to the Pistons and took another sales job. But that detail is kind of my start at the calves and teamwork. I love the fact that you're getting questioned by your parents after you get a master's degree that you're taking a job that basically you can't afford to live on your own. You're pounding the phones 80 to 100 calls a day. I had a very similar job out of college and the fact that you're willing to not have an ego at that moment. Maybe, maybe, and I'm curious now that you're in the leadership role and you hire people who are, I don't know, probably the younger

Starting point is 00:22:14 straight out of college, Chad Estes types. That's who you, I'm guessing. want to hire, at least some of them you want to have that mentality who are willing to bang the phones and sell. Do you see the same type of mentality around now? Because I think millennials at times get a bad rap or the people graduating from college right now. And I'm curious from a guy who maybe you don't directly hire them, but you're involved of leading the show. So you see the people that are being hired. What type, what are the workers like today versus maybe when you were doing it? Yeah, you know, it's different to a degree, but not that different. I read all the millennial stuff, and we have a ton of them working in our organization,

Starting point is 00:22:56 and I think we still find plenty of people willing to pay their dues and put the effort and work in, pound the phone, and do the things that are necessary to get their career launched in sports. That's not an issue for us. That's out there. And I think the sports industry is just so super competitive. And there is still an environment of, you know, you got to just get in and get started and prove yourself and then go from there. What's a little different, though, is, and certainly we're very well aware of this, eyes wide open on, you know, I would say how you interact, engage and manage that group.

Starting point is 00:23:35 I don't think just throwing them in the back and saying, you know, there's the phone and here's your list would work very well. today. I think they expect training. They expect conversation with their manager about regularly about how they're doing and what's going to take to get to the next level. I think they expect some more resources that we provide to our salespeople. And so I think that might be what I see is the difference. You know, we always talk about that kind of old school, kind of hardcore core mentality that maybe occurred a little more in the sales environment back then. Total lack of flexibility, real rigorous hours and rules. We don't operate that way.

Starting point is 00:24:22 But I did as a manager for a while because that's what you came from. And then you adjust over time as the time changes. So I think those are the differences I see. When a 23-year-old comes to you and says, Chad, I want to have your career. I want to do what you've done. I want to, that's what I want to do. and maybe they're an entry level sales rep on the phone. And they say, what can I do?

Starting point is 00:24:44 Or what are the pieces of advice you are giving them to help them potentially get on a path that you're on? Yeah, I have that conversation often. I bet. And I love to have it. It's probably one of my favorite things to do. I have made as much as just being successful in the task at hand of my job. One thing that I've put a huge emphasis on in my career is helping people with career development because I think it's the number one motivator.

Starting point is 00:25:13 If someone really truly believes and trusts that you have their best career interests in mind, particularly young people that are getting into sports and trying to climb the ladder, then there's no need for motivation. They're already motivated and it changes the dynamic of the relationship. And so we're always coaching and preaching and talking about how to get to the next level and prepare yourself. And I take a lot of pride that I've had a lot of people work within our realm that have gone off to other teams and accomplished great things and significant positions. And to me, that's the reward of being in a leadership role. And so this conversation that you're talking about,

Starting point is 00:25:51 a 23-year-old that's saying, how do I get there, you know, I think there's a handful of kind of core principles that I think they need to be focused on. You know, number one is you need to be good in your current job. It's rare that someone's going to tap you on the shoulder and say, hey, Ryan, I really think we should promote you here, but you've been failing in this entry-level job we've got you in, but we see all this potential. So, you know, there has to be a, be, you know, stay present, be in your current role, study it hard, take your learning outside of the office, be committed, put the effort in, all the things that can just have you be competitive in that current job. We always tell our people, you don't have to be the best salesperson.

Starting point is 00:26:32 There's a leaderboard and we track sales. We do all that stuff. But it's not an automatic that the top two are getting promoted because there's a whole another set of skills that I look to in particular for people at a future potential that are outside just your ability to sell. But you have to be good. You have to be a contributor. It's going to be hard, particularly in sales leadership, to be managing a group someday if you

Starting point is 00:26:56 didn't have the ability to be at least good enough on your own. own. So we talk a lot about, you know, just having success in your current job and everything that it takes. The second one that I talk about is curiosity. I think that's a huge trait. One that I admire in people that I always felt I had myself. It's trying to understand the why, the what, looking at people that are in roles that you would like to be in someday and really asking them, can we go have a cup of coffee or a drink? And can I pick your brain on how you got there? And really being good and skilled at asking those questions. And so I really think, you know, I always can see a difference when someone comes to me and says,

Starting point is 00:27:38 can we go have coffee and we'll go? There's a range of difference in the type of questions some people ask versus others. And I'm always kind of paying attention to that. So I think that's one. And then I think having a career vision, I think managing your own career and trying to get to where you want to go, isn't something that is on the backburner ever. I think you have to have that, you know, very at the top of your list and be thinking about how you're going about it.

Starting point is 00:28:08 And then I tell people to plant seeds. Like, no one's going to know that you want to be the next sponsorship sales account executive if you've never told anybody that. So have you gone and met with the VP of sponsorship if you're a ticket sales rep, sat down with him, one asked them all about their career, learn how they got there, and then let them know that that's on your agenda. at some point. I said, so those seeds that you plant when you tell people what you want to do, what your vision of yourself is, I think go a long way at some point to someone thinking,

Starting point is 00:28:38 hey, you know, Ryan one time mentioned he was interested in this. I'm going to go talk to him about it. I could go on and I could take up the rest of our time on this topic, but I'll stop there. But I'm highly passionate about helping people figure out these careers. And I think there's a lot to it and a lot to think about when it comes to that topic. I love it. It's fantastic advice. It's funny. My dad has achieved great deals of sustained excellence and success in his career leading sales forces of 950 plus people, you know, billion dollar companies. And he, the first piece of advice he gives to younger individual sales contributors is you need to be great, absolutely great at what you're currently doing first and foremost.

Starting point is 00:29:26 because if you're not, like you just said, chat, I mean, it was so cool that was the first thing that came out of your mouth. If you're not, it doesn't really matter. The rest of it doesn't matter. Because you're not getting promoted if you're just average or if you're in the middle of the pack. You do need to focus on being great. And I think that goes for every single role that you eventually get. If you're promoted from an individual contributor to a manager, if you don't become a great manager,

Starting point is 00:29:51 you're not going to go anywhere else. There's no need to even, I mean, if, It just simply, I think that could be a piece of advice that all of us work really hard to consciously think about. You need to be focused on being really great at what you're doing now. And typically when that happens, you open yourself up to so many opportunities. And some of them that you probably didn't even think of, but you focused hard on being great at what you do. Couldn't agree more. And then I think you need to be telling people about what those other things are that you want to do.

Starting point is 00:30:22 But you're right. I mean, it starts with that. And that's why you just can't get too distracted about worrying about too much about your future and let your current situation slip. What's the biggest mistake you see in young leaders? Let's say the person who has been got past the first stage of they're promoted and now maybe they're leading people, a few people or a team, but they're still very early in their career. What's the biggest mistake you see them make? You know, I think a couple things come into mind. And lack of patience would be one. I think it's such a giant difference between worrying about

Starting point is 00:30:59 yourself every day as a salesperson and then now worrying about others. And all of a son, you've got a team attend salespeople reporting you. You were used to worrying about just your day. And now they're coming in and out of your office with all the questions and they're not doing it the way you used to do it or you like to do it. And then you see people get frustrated. And so there's just a patience element to that. And I think it develops over time that you just understand that, first of all, all these people that I'm working with that are on my team are going to do things differently. And most of them aren't going to do it just the way I used to do it. And that's okay. And now my job is to spend all my time on what they're working on and what they're interested in.

Starting point is 00:31:44 So there's such a shift. And, you know, we see that all the time with, we take someone out of sales and put them in a leadership role and there's those challenges. And then there's just the newness of all the situations that, you know, the first time you're hiring people, first time you're having a challenging question, a conversation with someone about performance. The first time two employees are having their own issues amongst each other and you have to resolve. Just all the things that come up in a leadership role in business the first time, you just learn and learn and learn. I'm certainly still learning today, dealing with issues that are new or slightly different and, you know, thinking of how to deal with them. You know, I think I find myself just not long ago having this

Starting point is 00:32:29 conversation with someone that gets back to my optimism and comment. You know, I've seen so many times the anxiety that gets created over scenarios in business that you think, oh, man, this is going to be really bad and I can't believe this is happening and this is going to be a bad decision or the business isn't going the way we need it to, or whatever the situation is that all of a sudden, you're caught up in this wave of anxiety. And then usually about a week later, that situation's gone and has worked itself out in some manner

Starting point is 00:33:00 and you're on to the next one. And when you start to really think about that perspective of, you know, maybe I shouldn't be so caught up in worrying and the anxiety or the stress because these situations tend to work out. And I just now, I mean, I've just believed that over time and, you know, that we'll get to the right place. We'll figure it out. We'll make the right adjustments and good things will happen.

Starting point is 00:33:25 And that's kind of how I try and go about my day, just really believing that, you know, we're going to find our way and it's going to be good. And so let's not get too, you know, we have to pay attention to the bumps, but let's not get too caught up in it. So how often are you hiring, are you involved in the process of hiring? hiring sales leaders? Well, often. You know, if you look at legends, every time we have a new client, we're probably hiring three to four new sales management type people. And within the Cowboys, we have a whole host of them, and that turns over on occasion.

Starting point is 00:34:03 And so I would say that's a pretty regular part of my job. Okay, good. But what, so I love, I don't know why, but I am fascinated by the process that people take to interviewing and to making hiring decisions because I'm a firm believer, it is the most important aspect of leading is deciding who will be a part of your business, especially in leadership roles. So I assume you're looking for people who are passionate and optimistic and likable, like you mentioned before. If I'm wrong, feel free. No, you're nailed that. Okay. So you're looking for that.

Starting point is 00:34:42 And I agree. Absolutely. But I'm curious as to, if you could walk me through or take me through what it's like to interview with Chad Estes to become a sales leader, I love to maybe just hear your overall philosophy on hiring, how you uncover that people are passionate and they have an optimistic outlook and they're likable humans. I just want to know because I found that it's at times people are putting on their best face possible for that day or those days of the interview process. And I'm always trying to uncover ways to not be fooled.

Starting point is 00:35:20 And I want to learn from great people like you who have done a good job with that. So if you could walk me through that process, I'd love to learn about that. Yeah, well, I will start by China Ryan. It's not overly scientific for me. I've always felt that I can get a pretty good read on people rather quickly. And that's usually worked out for me. I've just had so many great people that I've had working for me in these roles. And I've gone through this process.

Starting point is 00:35:53 A sit down with me in that situation is truly a conversation. I try and not be kind of overly interview, formal interview mode. I like people, I like to try and make people feel comfortable so we can have more of a normal conversation. Like we were just sitting around talking about their career and their philosophies and what they think about things and really just a good kind of back and forth. And to your point, I think when I can get someone to relax, it gives me a little bit of a better look at just what they're really like. And, you know, I think there's, you know, I do think I'm looking for some real genuine qualities. Like I think if someone comes off to me as they're trying too hard or they've scripted it too much or, you know, they're almost working too hard at the interview. That probably doesn't go over real well with me.

Starting point is 00:36:43 I really want to get into more of a natural, comfortable kind of mode with someone. And so I kind of put that on me of how I, you know, greet someone and how we start a conversation and how can you get someone to let their guard down and relax and have that conversation. a little bit. And then, you know, you're evaluating everything. You're evaluating what they wore to the interview. You're evaluating the handshake and not overly. I mean, it's just social interaction. Like any of us, you meet someone.

Starting point is 00:37:17 You usually know pretty quickly what I'd be friends with this person is their connection here. You know, that likability factor just comes through really just a natural conversation of is this someone I want to say. spend some time around. And, you know, I'm not, I, someone said this to me once, you know, are you just trying to hire people that you want to go have a beer with? And I'm like, well, I'd like to want to have a beer with most of the people that I work with. It can't probably be that way with everybody. But all things being equal, I'd like someone incredibly talented and

Starting point is 00:37:50 skilled with all kinds of upside that, yeah, I'd like to go hang out with at the same time. Is that part of your process, your interview process? 100%. You mean going. You're going and having a drink with them or dinner if i if i'm if it's if it's a senior level position absolutely yeah if it's uh if it's a if it's a VP job of someone particularly if it's someone someone reporting directly with me that i'm going to spend a lot of time with um 100% um we're going to and we're going to then break out of the uh sit in an office and interview type of vibe and we're just going to hang out and um you know i i The way I work is I really need to be friends with the people that I work with.

Starting point is 00:38:35 Now, there's a difference between work friends at times, and I mix that right up, though. Some of my best friends are people that I work with or work for me. And even the ones that I might not be looking to hang out with on the weekends or go on trips with, when we're at work, we're still really good friends. And probably a decent percentage of the time when we're at work, we're still talking about family stuff and sports and whatever friends would talk about, that's just part of how I work. And I don't like it to be overly formal. And I really want to have deep personal relationships with the people I'm around for 10 hours a day.

Starting point is 00:39:15 And so when I'm interviewing someone, if I don't think they can fit into that environment, then that's just not going to be, it's not a good fit. And I also have an obligation to the other people that are enjoying that kind of environment that do fit, you know, not to bring someone in that potentially could be a bad fit for that. So that's a big part of it. And then a lot of it comes down to gut feel. I mean, certainly the way they landed in my office was a qualified resume, probably some really good references. Our industry is super connected. So probably rarely hiring someone that doesn't know someone that I know really well. And so when all those things add up and you know they're qualified, it really

Starting point is 00:39:55 comes down to personal fit. Another part of the process that's really important to me, and you mentioned this earlier as one of the four qualities that you give advice to is, I think it was the second one. You said that you want your people to be curious. And for me, I've interviewed hundreds of people for sales roles over the last 10 years, and I think for me, the questions that are asked by the candidate tell me so much. about them as a curious potential leader. And if they come in and they ask the basic vacation or benefits questions versus really

Starting point is 00:40:35 thoughtful, intelligent questions that came from the conversation we just had, or maybe either even throughout the conversation, I absolutely love those types of people. I have a feeling that when they approach life with that curious of a mindset, they're going to learn, they're going to figure things out. and they're probably going to be successful versus the type who just wait to the end and ask the very basic common questions that you look up on Google. Is that something that you're looking for with, I assume it is from a leadership perspective and how do you uncover that? Yeah, I think very much so. I think if someone is coming in to interview with me about a leadership role in our sales organization, I think they'd be asking me a lot about what the culture is and what was important to me and why,

Starting point is 00:41:24 why I set it up that way and what our philosophies are because they should be evaluating us as much as we're evaluating them. And that is really what I'm looking for is like, let's just, let's have a conversation. And, you know, every once in a while you interview someone to get to the end and they say, I don't have any questions. And I'm just like, wow, you know, how did that happen? They never get hired for me. That's a, that's too bad.

Starting point is 00:41:48 That's they're pretty much 100% for me. I don't know about you. And then the other thing is, is like, can someone get pretty confident? in that environment and, you know, you really feel like, I think that's important to. I really seeing kind of genuinely who this person is. And, you know, gosh, you've interviewed a lot of people. I mean, it's amazing the difference between kind of a real stiff. You ever have one of those interviews where you're like, if I wasn't like willing to lead the whole conversation, this conversation, I don't know what would have happened. We might have just looked at each other.

Starting point is 00:42:21 And that happens sometimes. And those aren't good. You want to look up two hours later and say, where the two hours go? And that's when you know you've kind of nailed it with somebody. Yeah, Chad, I want to talk a little bit about you're working in 2001. You're working for basically your hometown team, the Cleveland Cavaliers, and we progress towards the year 2007. And so Jerry Jones Jr., I quote said, everybody kept saying that they were a protege of Chad

Starting point is 00:42:58 El Estes and after I heard his name about five times I said I've got to meet Chad and this is from Jerry Jones Jr. The clubs, you know, he's part of the Jones family. He's the owner of the team and this is a guy who talk about I mean you know you talk about doing great at your current role you are basically recruited and correct any part of the story that's not accurate but this is based on my research done prior to us talking. But you are recruited by the Jones family

Starting point is 00:43:28 because Jerry Jones, Jr. kept hearing your name as people that were protégés of yours. Yeah, I mean, it's, that is the story. And it's, you know, Jerry Jr. tells it all the time, which I'm there often when he is. And it's great to hear. I mean, it's almost a little bit. too, to be honest with you. It's like a little overboard. But he had had a bunch of people

Starting point is 00:43:59 into interview. And the fact of the matter is a lot of those people had worked for me in the past. And we're now in their own director VP roles. And I don't know exactly what he was asking them that led to my name coming up. But it did. And he called me one day and he just pretty much said that. He said, we're trying to find someone to run our sales project. And he goes, I just keep hearing your name. And And then I finally, I said, well, why aren't I talking to you? And I just said, well, that's pretty cool. And I appreciate the call. But within about five minutes of the call, I told him no.

Starting point is 00:44:33 And, I mean, it really almost didn't happen. It's probably a little bit of a good lesson for me. It should at least pause for a second and understand what you're saying no to. But I was so set in Cleveland. I was so certain that's where I wanted to be. And I didn't want the distraction of even thinking about another job. And I had been named. the chief marketing officer of the Cavaliers about a year prior to that. I had a four-year-old

Starting point is 00:44:57 and a two-year-old at home. We were around family and friends in my hometown. LeBron was leading us through the playoffs, and I just thought this is a great place for me to be, and I'm just so not looking for another job. And Jerry was unbelievably persistent. I mean, I told him no, and he kind of accepted it. He called me back three days later and said, I've been thinking about our conversation. Are you really sure you want to say no? And I told him. I told him, him again, I was very certain that I didn't want to do it. And he said, well, would you just come down and meet my family? And I told him no. I said, I don't want to waste any by his time. And he said, well, what if I come to Cleveland and meet with you? And then I was just like, well, how do you,

Starting point is 00:45:37 you know, at some point you got to stop saying no, I guess. So I said, you really want to do that. And he said, yeah, he said, no skin off my back. If you tell me no there, you know, that's it. But he goes, I want to sit down and talk to you. And he did. So he flew to Cleveland. And we met. And then obviously, you know, that was it. I mean, he convinced me I should come down and meet his family and learn more about the project. And once I got into Jerry's senior's office and saw the passion and really, to some degree, just thoroughly enjoyed my time with the Jones family. I just thought they were had great, just energy.

Starting point is 00:46:13 And they were wanting to do something so significant in the sports space with the stadium. And they were recruiting me really hard. and I just said, man, this is, if there's one job that I've been preparing for, you know, at that time, I don't know, for 13 years I've been working or whatever it was, it was that. And it finally just hit me. I said, I've got to go do this. And it was, it was the hardest decision I've ever made in my life. I'm leaving, you know, just leaving the cavaliers in my hometown and all that comes with that was extremely difficult for me. And how about with people with families? I think they could think about, that where you start building a home and you're from Ohio, you like, you love it there, you're with, you have an incredible job.

Starting point is 00:46:59 That aspect of it had to be part of it too with your wife and saying, hey, we're going to up and move to Dallas. Yeah, she, I mean, she's from Columbus, Ohio, so she certainly didn't want to leave. And, you know, I had my parents a half hour down the road and her family not far away. And we had these, you know, we had two young great kids who are now 12 and 11. And so it felt a little bit like taking your grandkids away, you know, from your, from your family. And so that was just all hard. Yeah, just sort through all that.

Starting point is 00:47:30 But at the end of the day, they were all really supportive. They knew from day one with me that this career charge was something that was really critically important to me that I was going to chase it. And so, I mean, there was, you know, once they understood what I was contemplating, it was actually a ton of support. But, you know, it's hard to leave a job you love for one you don't know about. And, and that's really what it came down to. But, you know, I was feeling a real connection to the family. And it's been that tenfold. I mean, they've just, you know, they've been incredible. And the things I've gotten to work on have been beyond my expectations. And so, ultimate, it was the right decision. And, you know, once you make it, I believe it just is the right decision. There was no looking back. And it was, it was just going to be great. once the decision got made. But, you know, if you think about tough decisions in your life, that one ranks, you know, right up there with the best of them for me. And usually those could potentially create the biggest reward.

Starting point is 00:48:34 What is it like working? I think most of us listening and me, Jerry Jones is maybe the most famous owner in all of sports. The Cowboys are potentially with the Yankees, I would say, and you guys are teamed together for legends. the most well-known brand in all of sports, at least in North America. What is it like working for Jerry Jones and family? Yeah. I mean, I realize you probably are not going to ever criticize him on a podcast that's

Starting point is 00:49:03 going to be heard by a ton of people. But I have a feeling that there probably isn't much criticism there to say. Because he obviously is well-known, both at times can be a poll. I'm speaking of Jerry. Can be a polarizing guy. I mean, a lot of ultra-successful people. I think at times are. So that's not that uncommon, but

Starting point is 00:49:22 I'm curious just from a guy who was recruited by the family, hard. And now you've been there for a number of years. What it's like, the good, the bad. Maybe there are a few negative parts. I don't know that you'd be willing to share, but I'm curious like kind of the good, the bad, the ugly of what it's like to work for a family run, multi-billion dollar business.

Starting point is 00:49:41 Sure. Well, I get asked this a lot. And first of all, it's mostly great. Nothing's perfect. and it's not always so simple, but I'll just start with Jerry. I think most people think Jerry would be very difficult, right? I think people think he would be overly demanding and maybe harsh and not willing to listen and just barking out orders.

Starting point is 00:50:05 You know, I've had people give me what they thought maybe their opinion was. And, you know, the things that I probably appreciate the most about him is his desire to take a lot of feedback from a lot of people, his willingness to listen and his, his willingness to have debate. I feel very comfortable giving Jerry an opinion that might be different than his on a topic because he's allowed that to happen. And now, don't get me wrong. I mean, there's a time where it's very clear the decision is made. And once that happens, I mean, it's just, you just, you just roll. I mean, you go execute because he's the man. But, you know, and look, I've been with him during probably some of the most pressure-packed times of his business career.

Starting point is 00:50:56 I mean, he rolled the dice on this stadium in a significant way during the economic crash. And there were some real, you know, scary times. And the stress and pressure on him was immense. And so, you know, that at times created tension. Jerry has tension in him. I mean, he, he, uh, you don't run the type of businesses that he runs with everything just being so, you know, rosy every day. So, you know, there's times where it's, uh, it can be a little unpleasant, but, um, which you, what you also balance that out with is, you know, he treats me like family.

Starting point is 00:51:35 And, uh, what I tell people that, that is such a difference for me, I've been around other billionaires and other sports team owners is how inclusive he is. He wants people around. come on let's go let's fly here bring them with you let's have them in the suite they should stay get them set up over here i mean there's just a ton of examples of jerry which is a little surprising to people that he's you know how much he wants to bring people along and have people have experiences with him and then let's just i mean it just goes without saying the business stuff that you get to experience his vision his willingness to take risk the resources he'll put into things. The ideas he comes up with, he's just brilliant. I mean,

Starting point is 00:52:19 I'm working for a legendary figure, and I know it. And I pay attention to that and try and stay present with that regularly because it's really, really cool. So, you know, that's Jerry. And, you know, for me, obviously, I have such strong allegiance to him and the opportunities have given me. And now you just want to see him win another one. I think that's what's left for him is another Super Bowl. And on the business side, I don't know if anybody could have contributed more to the business of the NFL in all ways, sponsorship, TV, stadium development. I think he'll go in a Hall of Fame for it and absolutely should and rightfully so. And then the family dynamic is a term I use at times, the family dynamic, because working for a family business was new to me,

Starting point is 00:53:06 and I'm in a role where I interact with all of them. And I could have a morning where all four of them might call me on similar things or something different. And that can get a little chaotic if I have a scheduled day and the phone's ringing with family members that all, for the most part, try and step out of things to take. You know, that's just a part of my job. And then the other part of my job is to help them communicate amongst each other. If you imagine you were in business with your brothers or sister, you know, sometimes they might not want to always have every conversation that needs to be had. And so there's probably a little bit of a role where I play there.

Starting point is 00:53:42 But the best thing about that whole situation working for them and the family business is I really, really like them all and I really respect them all. And they are very respectfully each other and what they get to do, that they get to be the Jones family running the Dallas Cowboys. And so when there's some challenges amongst differing opinions, it never boils over in anything that we can't handle because they keep the bigger picture in mind. And so it's a special place.

Starting point is 00:54:11 I'm totally blessed to be working for that family and the Dallas Cowboys. Yeah, I think some of the criticism at times is that maybe he's too involved in personnel decisions, meaning almost drafting Johnny Mansell and needing his team of people. And to his credit, he listened to them to not draft him in the first round to take an offensive lineman, which ultimately helped the club much more than a quarterback who was not in a league anymore. Like, do you, are you, I know you're not making football decisions, you're making business decisions, but do you witness any of that or see that? Yeah, I get to be around that some. Here's what I would say to that. First of all, if you're the owner of any professional sports team,

Starting point is 00:54:51 you've earned the right to do it however you want to do it. For sure. So let's start with that. You created wealth where you could go buy one of these things and then you get to decide how you want to run it. Jerry's eyes wide open on the fact that he carries a GM. title, so therefore he takes all the criticism. The easier thing to do is hire a GM and blame it on that person when you're not winning Super Bowls. And by the way, there's

Starting point is 00:55:15 a lot of teams not winning Super Bowls every year too. But Jerry just, he takes what comes out. I mean, he's eyes wide open on the fact that he puts himself in a role where he'll be criticized if we don't win. The second thing I would say to that

Starting point is 00:55:31 is I don't I don't think it's necessarily all that overly different than how some other teams operate. Jerry has a whole slew of football people that are feeding him information, including his son, Stephen Jones, on the decisions that are potentially to be made. And then he's the final decision maker. And that's like any leader of any business. And I don't begrudge him one second for that. I think if I coughed up a couple billion dollars to own an NFL team, I'd, I'd have. might want to decide who were drafting in the draft too if I felt I had football knowledge.

Starting point is 00:56:08 You know, he played on a national championship, Arkansas football team. You know, what gives someone the right to be able to make football personnel decisions? In the NFL, there's a lot of guys who played a lot less football than Jerry making those decisions too. So he's been around the game a long time. So obviously, Ryan, I'm going to back until the end of the day. But, you know, I get insight into it, and of course, I see all the criticism, what we all do. But I think I have a little bit of a different perspective on how that all goes down.

Starting point is 00:56:41 And, you know, we went 12 and 4 years ago when he was NFL executive of the year. So it's, there's ups, there's, you know, such ups and downs in the game of sports. I think it, you know, people, I think, unfortunately sometimes in our culture, if there's others who have had immense success and they've made a lot of money, you know, There are just certain fractions of the world who want to try to bring those people down. And one of my really good friends, Bobby Carpenter, played for the Cowboys for many years, which drafted in the first round by the Cowboys out of Ohio State. And he can't speak highly enough about not only him, but the entire organization and everybody involved from some of the players, obviously, to coaches in front office. So it's just interesting to see why.

Starting point is 00:57:28 And I don't know why it's like that. I don't know. I guess some people say it's lonely at the top. Jerry doesn't seem to be very lonely, which is great, because he's surrounded by great people like you and his family. But I was just curious from inside what it's like to see people taking shots at the guy. Because as you just mentioned, there are people who are general managers making drafting decisions

Starting point is 00:57:49 who played far less football than Jerry Jones. And so why all of a sudden are they? Because they watched a lot of film when they were, I don't know, you know, I don't know why they get, kind of left off the hook when they make poor decisions. Well, they get fired. That's the big difference is they get fired and Jerry doesn't. But I mean, you're right.

Starting point is 00:58:10 And I, but he's comfortable in his own skin with that. I mean, he knows what's going on with the criticism. So just finishing up here, Chad, what's next for you, for the Cowboys, for your career? What's on the horizon? It's a good question. know, there's still a lot to do here, which is great. You know, it's the place where you'll never get bored. The Jones family just doesn't quit. And we've got a massive thing on our hands with this

Starting point is 00:58:41 project called The Star. And when it's all said and done, Jerry will actually have more personal investment in The Star than he did in 18T Stadium. And it opens here in two months. And so we're right in the thick of all of it as far as selling it and leasing it and designing it and then figuring out how to operate it and opening it. And, you know, we'll be, we'll be working really hard on that for several years to get it right and there's still future development around it. So, so that's just a massive thing that is a business into its own that sits now within the overall business that is additive to our day to day. So, I mean, I don't have a thought about anything but what's right in front of me today. I spend, honestly, by comparison,

Starting point is 00:59:29 and how I used to, very little time wondering about the future of my career. I think it's, when you get to a really good spot, you finally can get to a point where you can relax the brain on that topic. And I'm trying to live very much in the present. And I know I'm getting all kinds of really neat experiences and new challenges. And the Joneses allow me to do things I haven't done before and grow and learn. And so that's just great. And I really, Ryan, have kind of narrowed down what's important to me from a career standpoint to a couple things. And one of them is working for people that I enjoy. And so I check that box in a really big way. You've already heard all that. Secondly, is I need to be challenged every day. And as long as I am, I need that for my

Starting point is 01:00:15 own personal fulfillment. And I still am here every day. And the third is to be compensated appropriately. And so beyond those three things, I think I've spent enough time thinking about what I wanted out of my career to know that those three are really the three things that are most important. And so I can kind of look at it and say as long as I'm operating within those three things, there's not a lot of reason to be thinking about anything else. I love it, man. Work for people you enjoy, be challenged every day and be compensated appropriately. Hey, Chad, when you first heard the phrase learning leader, what was the first thought that popped into

Starting point is 01:00:52 your mind? I think the first thought was very simple, is just that leaders need to keep learning. So I just kind of flip it, but you never stop learning. And that's, I feel that way about myself. And so I think that was the first thing I thought of. Love it, man. Thanks so much for being here investing your time. I know you got so much going on.

Starting point is 01:01:13 We got to chat for an hour and a pre-call as well, which I absolutely love. Man, I'm excited to get to know you even more and to keep talking as we both progress on our journey. So is there anywhere you would send people? people to read more about you or what you guys are doing online? Well, there's, you know, as far as the star and all that stuff, Dallas Cowboys.com has a lot about that. But, I mean, if anybody wants to learn any more about my past or career, there's, you know, a ton of articles on, you just, you Google it like I think you probably did. But that's probably it, Ryan. But, hey, I really enjoyed it, too. It's great to get to know you a Bobcat alum.

Starting point is 01:01:55 We've got to stick together. And, uh, you're doing some. some great stuff. So it's really been an honor to do this today. Awesome, man. Thanks so much, Chad. Like I said, look forward to us continuing this dialogue and really appreciate how open you were because that's

Starting point is 01:02:11 what we need. I think this conversation is going to be of a ton of value to a lot of people. So thank you so much. You're welcome. Thank you. All right. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time.

Starting point is 01:02:25 Head over to Learningleadershow.com more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again and we'll see you next time on the Learning Leader Show.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 143: Chad Estis - SVP For The Dallas Cowboys: Working For Jerry Jones

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