The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 144: Paul Tough - How To Develop An Intrinsically Motivated Child

Episode Date: July 24, 2016

Episode 144: Paul Tough - How To Develop An Intrinsically Motivated Child Paul Tough is the author, most recently, of Helping Children Succeed: What Works and Why. His previous book, How Children Succeed: Grit, Curiosity, and the Hidden Power of Character, was translated into 27 languages and spent more than a year on the New York Times hardcover and paperback best-seller lists. His first book, Whatever It Takes: Geoffrey Canada's Quest to Change Harlem and America, was published in 2008. Paul is a contributing writer to the New York Times Magazine, where he has written extensively about education, parenting, poverty, and politics. His writing has also appeared in the New Yorker, the Atlantic, GQ, and Esquire, and on the op-ed page of the New York Times. He has worked as an editor at the New York Times Magazine and Harper's Magazine and as a reporter and producer for the public-radio program "This American Life." He was the founding editor of Open Letters, an online magazine. Episode 144: Paul Tough - How To Develop An Intrinsically Motivated Child Subscribe on iTunes  or Stitcher Radio The Learning Leader Show "Our Goal Is To Help Our Children Be Independent." In This Episode, You Will Learn: Having a growth mindset leads (not just about skills) to sustained excellence Realize that failure will happen... You won't sustain excellence 100% of the time How has parenting changed over the last 20 years Read "Our Kids" by Robert Putnam Parents are more educated = They have more anxiety about their kids Parents are more intrusive -- They think everything has to be exactly right -- It puts pressure on children Kids need to continue doing basic responsibilities (mow the lawn, wash dishes, etc...) Creating a system around incentives is bad How do you develop a child to be intrinsically motivated? Keep praise for success overcoming difficult moments, not just getting straight A's Helping children develop GRIT - How to do it The importance of having a coach -- And placing a high value on a great coach Understand the messages we send about success and failure The value of having a winner and a loser in athletic competitions "Hearing the word NO is one of the biggest gifts a child can receive." Continue Learning: Read: Helping Children Succeed Go To: PaulTough.com  Follow Paul on Twitter: @paultough To Follow Me on Twitter: @RyanHawk12 You may also like these episodes: Episode 078: Kat Cole – From Hooters Waitress To President of Cinnabon Episode 080: Ryan Estis - From Rock Star Sales Professional To World Class Speaker & Entrepreneur Episode 086: Seth Godin – How To Become Indispensable & Build Your Tribe Episode 107: Simon Sinek – Leadership: It Starts With Why Did you enjoy the podcast? If you enjoyed hearing Paul Tough on the show, please don't hesitate to send me a note on Twitter or email me. Episode edited by the great J Scott Donnell Bio From PaulTough.com Paul Tough is the author, most recently, of Helping Children Succeed: What Works and Why. His previous book, How Children Succeed: Grit, Curiosity, and the Hidden Power of Character, was translated into 27 languages and spent more than a year on the New York Times hardcover and paperback best-seller lists. His first book, Whatever It Takes: Geoffrey Canada's Quest to Change Harlem and America, was published in 2008. Paul is a contributing writer to the New York Times Magazine, where he has written extensively about education, parenting, poverty, and politics. His writing has also appeared in the New Yorker, the Atlantic, GQ, and Esquire, and on the op-ed page of the New York Times. He has worked as an editor at the New York Times Magazine and Harper's Magazine and as a reporter and producer for the public-radio program "This American Life." He was the founding editor of Open Letters, an online magazine.

One thing that I really try to do is keep my praise for my son's success for moments of him overcoming difficulty. So if he gets every question right on a test or on a worksheet, because it was pretty easy for him, like, I'm not going to praise that. If there's a kind of question that he's really struggling with and kind of freaked out about and doesn't enjoy doing and says he can't do, but then the next day he like calms down and gets through it, I'll, definitely praise that, you know, and I'll talk and I'll try and do it. Again, I'm very influenced by Carol Dweck. I'll try and do it by talking not about like, hey, you're smart for having answered that question, but like I really liked the way that you, you know, you, you were able to do it calmly. You really struggled with it the first time, but then you were able to succeed the second time. All of those messages I think are really important for kids, and I think

they really relate to them. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. Hey guys, it's Ryan Update in regards to the Facebook group we've set up. I'm so happy to see the response that we've gotten from so many great fellow learning leaders. The conversation and the dialogue has been fantastic. So I'd love to invite all of you to further the conversation and join us. Simply go to learning leader.com slash group.

Learning leader.com slash group and we will add you to the community. And you can join like-minded individuals to discuss leadership topics. Argue a little bit. Maybe we can disagree. I think that's how we all learn. But it's been fantastic. So far, I've loved really engaging with you guys.

the great listeners of the Learning Leader Show. So go to learningleader.com slash group. We'll add you, and I look forward to talking with you soon. Hey, and welcome to The Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk, and thank you so much for being here. It was so important for me to have this conversation with Paul Tough. He is a best-selling author, most recently, of helping children succeed, What Works, and Why.

I was initially attracted to Paul's work because of his previous book titled, how children succeed, grit, curiosity, and the hidden power of character, which was translated into 27 languages and spent more than a year on the New York Times bestseller list. That never happens anymore for more than a year. It's incredible. A few of the topics we got into. How do you help a child be intrinsically motivated? And why we all, both children and adults, need experience having a coach, someone to give you deliberate feedback so that you can practice and improve. Paul discusses exactly why that is so important for all of us. And then why creating a system around extrinsic incentives is bad for the long-term success

of a person or an organization. Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, it's Paul Tuff. Paul, thank you so much for joining me here on The Learning Leaders Show. I've learned so much from your work. I'm very appreciative of your work, as a father, it's very important to me on the things that you've written I've learned a lot from. So first, welcome to the show. Thank you.

It's great to be here. I have a question around sustaining excellence. And specifically, you know, you've studied this. You've written a lot about children, successful ones, failure, some other things that come along with kids as they grow up. And I'm curious from your perspective, when you take a child, let's say from a two-year-old, and study them throughout their life, maybe as they grow into being an adult. What are some of the common themes or characteristics, the successful ones,

or the ones who sustained excellence all seem to share? Well, I mean, I think a lot of it, and certainly what I have written about a lot, is about students' psychology, about their mindset, about that a lot of what leads to the kind of outcomes that I care about, and I think a lot of people care about, is not just what cognitive skills children bring to the table, but also what their motivation is, what their belief in their own ability to change is. So one thing I would say to sort of flip your question around a little bit, you know, I think sustained excellence. I'm not positive that that's what we want to hope for for kids because I think that trying to sustain nothing but excellence,

I think often stresses kids out a lot. And I think one of the important things for children is to help them, understand that like would not every day is excellent. You know what I mean? And that and that they're actually going to hit lots of roadblocks and they're going to fail and they're going to have setbacks and not to just sort of take those as like, oh, it doesn't matter if I succeed or if I fail. But to understand that those moments, those moments of struggle and challenge are when we are learning the most and when we're tested the most. And that what really makes a difference for children's success is how they respond in those moments of stress.

and struggle and challenge. And so in the big picture, you know, looking at, I think sustained excellence is exactly what kids should be aspiring toward. But I think giving them the message that sustained excellence doesn't mean that, you know, everything you do has to be excellent, I think is a really important step. What message would you give them? Well, I think that message, that message that struggle is an important part of learning. And so in the, so I think about this with my own older son.

who is six, just about to turn seven, all the time. So when he's having moments of struggle doing homework or, you know, working on a project or anything else, those are the moments where I most try to help him. And although part of how I try to help him is by kind of standing back a little bit and not trying to rush in and solve the problem and let him kind of experience that frustration that we all feel when something's not going our way. but to kind of give him strategies for how to how to deal with those moments, you know, how to, how to deal with that frustration and how to accept that that is, that's part of the learning. You know, that's not the moment where you're not learning, where you're failing. You know, I think a lot of kids get the message that, like, the good moments in education are when they're doing, you know, a sort of boring worksheet and getting every, every answer right. That's a sign of, like, academic excellence.

And it's not, you know, a sign of academic excellence is a moment where you're trying something that you're, you know, you're trying something that you're, you know, you cannot quite do and you're sticking with it and failing and making it through. And so, so that's the big message that I think it's important for kids to get is that those moments, which are always frustrating, always difficult, are actually the most important ones and the most productive ones over the long term. I absolutely love it, man. How do you think, Paul, how do you think parenting has evolved and changed over the last, let's say, 20 years? Well, I think it's evolved and changed in, in a variety of ways. So there's a book that I'm very influenced by, called Our Kids, by a man named Robert Putnam, a professor at Harvard. And what he

writes about in that book is the way that parenting styles and practices have diverged a lot for people from different economic backgrounds over the last. I'd say he's looking at longer than 20 years, maybe 30 or 40 years. And so a lot of what I write about in my journalism is about kids who are growing up in poverty or in low-income families. And so a lot of my concern is the way that their lives have changed. And for the most part, as Robert Putnam writes about in our kids, it has not changed for the better. You know, the family lives of kids in low-income families have become more unstable and chaotic because of social changes and economic changes in our culture as a whole. And so for those kids, I think the way that parenting has changed is it's become, you know, less stable, more chaotic, less reliable, less dependable.

and it's had a, you know, I think a really negative effect on a lot of those kids. And as a result, they're often struggling more in school. At the same time, there has been this change among more educated parents in a different direction towards sort of more anxiety about their kids, being more hands-on, being more sometimes intrusive into their children's lives. And I think there are good things and bad things about that trend. You know, I mean, we're both fathers, I think, I don't know about you, but, you know, I'm much more involved in my children's lives than my father was. And then, but I think I think that's true for a lot of people in my generation compared to previous generations. And I think that's great, you know what I mean, I think the fact that parents are, a lot of parents are spending more time reading with their children and playing with their children and especially with babies being down on the floor and interacting with them face to face a whole lot more.

all that stuff is really positive and powerful in children's development. But at the same time, I think there's also this anxiety that a lot of parents feel, and I think especially more affluent parents, that their kids have to do everything exactly right, have to be in exactly the right after-school programs, and get the right tutors and get into the right colleges and hit every mark on certain measures of success. And what I think people have found anecdotally,

but also what the research suggests, is that that has put an enormous amount of stress and pressure on children, and that has often had really negative effects on them in all sorts of ways, mostly psychological. So I think among more affluent parents, I think that the sort of increased engagement and involvement has led to some good things, but I think when parents put too much of their own identity in their children's success, it can often really warp the parent-child dynamic with,

often negative results for the kids. That's the aspect of it, Paul, that I actually fear as a parent is, you know, I think part of my job is to try to do my best to put my children in positions to be successful. But sometimes I know I messed this up. I overdo it and potentially am too involved at times. I've had to really work to not pick them up when they fall off the bike. Those types of things because, you know, I first became aware of your work from your previous book, how children succeed, grit, curiosity, and the hidden power of character. And I think developing grit, my parents actually did a really good job, I think, of allowing my brothers and me to develop grit.

They, it's, we, we, no secret. We come from an upper middle class home where they, they both were very successful and still are today. But, but, but, but did a, a great job. making sure that that grit was developed through building work ethics, I think not spoiling us. I mean, even, I remember like even going, something as little as going to a restaurant and like not being able to get Pepsi or Coke because it costs too much money, you know, little things like that and not getting the newest shoes or even the equipment all the time.

Now, we'd have whatever we needed, but it developed a little bit of grit in us, I think. And now I feel like I don't do a very good job of that. And I'm trying to do a better job of that. And I think that seems to be one of the themes that a lot of parents struggle with. And it's almost like with the world of Facebook and social media, there's competitions of people wanting to show off their kids online, especially when it comes like report card time or sporting events. What do you think about that when it comes to parents like me who feel like sometimes we're not doing a great job at times? I think it's a struggle. I certainly feel like I'm in the same boat always wrestling with that, trying to find the right balance.

And so I'm not surprised that you feel it. I'm sure there are a lot of other parents out there who feel that. And so I think on the one hand, we all need to give ourselves a bit of a break and realize that, you know, what kids need is for us to do our best and not obsessed too much over, you know, getting that balance exactly right every day. But I think it's also worth sort of having a goal in mind. as parents, that what we really want to do is find a balance, you know, that we want to provide our kids not necessarily with a lot of material stuff, but with a lot of, you know, love and support, but that at the same time, our goal is to make them independent, right? To make, to let them figure out how to do things on their own.

And that means allowing them to experience challenge and struggle and to, to, and also to, you know, give them real responsibility, you know, like chores. I think it's something that a lot of families don't spend a lot of time on these days. And in our generation, I think we did a lot more. That was a big part of the sort of family conversation. But I think it's an incredibly important arena, you know, like cutting the grass, taking out the garbage. When kids feel like all those things are their responsibility, that I think is really valuable in terms of sending kids the message. Like you've got to do a lot of the hard work of life, you know.

And I think there are a lot of parents who feel like, well, what's the most important thing for my kids is to have them doing these activities and being involved in, you know, a million different after-school programs and sports and clubs and tutors and everything else. But I think what we sort of know intuitively, but also I think what research suggests is that doing the kind of like basic family responsibilities, you know, sitting down to family dinner, cleaning up, you know, taking responsibility for, for, you know, helping make dinner and, you know, all the things that kids have always, should be always doing in homes is really important. And I think the kids actually respond well to limits and rules and responsibilities that, you know, hearing, hearing, when they hear no from their parents, that's one of the biggest gifts that we can give them. And when they, when parents make demands on kids and say, you know, these are your responsibilities, these are the things you've got to do. in the short term, that often leads to conflict and disagreement. In the long term, I think that's actually what our kids want from us is some sort of firm limits and some serious responsibilities. You know, it's interesting.

I just talked to Carol Dweck, and I know you've referenced her work as well as Jessica Leahy. We had great conversations. And, you know, this is another area. So when your child does well in school from a grade perspective, meaning they bring home their report card or you get it emailed nowadays and you'll you see that they get straight A's and so you have your your dad so I'm curious how how should parents respond when their child gets straight A's in school because now obviously there's you know toys pizza parties go to the arcade you know get a cake whatever there's there seems to be a lot

of rewards that we see out there when when children do well in school. Oh, okay. So first of all, I would say, yeah, no, I don't think it's a good idea to have material rewards for academic success. I think, you know, what you want is for kids who are intrinsically motivated rather than extrinsically motivated to succeed in school. And so I think adding, sort of creating a situation of those sorts of rewards and punishments

attached to, or, you know, incentives and disincentives attached to academic success is something you want to try and avoid if you can. My feeling is that one of the best approaches with a report card is to ask questions rather than to sort of deliver your own judgment and say, like, go through it with your child and say, tell me about this class. How do you feel about this? What do you think about this grade? What did you learn in this class? What did you enjoy about it? What was the hardest thing that you did?

Were you pushed hard enough? Was this challenging enough? I think it's useful in two ways. One is it's good to actually get. that kind of feedback from your child and you might get some interesting information. But I think it's also like one of the most important things that kids can learn to do is how to assess their own progress. And when they are very focused on external signs of success, whether it's material rewards or just a grade on a report card,

what Carol Dweck's research and others suggest is that that is going to be a shallow motivation for them going forward. when they are actually motivated by what they're learning and how that feels, that's going to be a much deeper sort of motivation. So, you know, I think there are lots of kids who are lots of us, lots of adults, who can look back and say, like, the most rewarding class I ever took was the one where I got, you know, a B-minus because the professor was a really, or the teacher was really tough. And, you know, I struggled with it. But, like, I pulled myself up from a C to a B-minus and felt like I actually learned more there than anywhere else.

And I think when kids are getting the message that those are actually like that, those are the successes that we want to push toward that I think is going to help them going forward. But I think the way to get there is to have these sort of low pressure conversations with them where you're just sort of talking through the report card and saying, you know, tell me about this. What did you learn there? What did you like about it? What did you not like about it? When kids learn to do that kind of low stakes self-assessment, I think it gives them this sort of metacognitive understanding. of their own learning that is really valuable to them going forward. It's really interesting to bring up that class that we had to really grind and struggle.

I vividly remember one of my all-time favorite classes I've ever taken was a communication course in college or Ohio University, Dr. Daniel Modaf. I would love to actually talk to him for this podcast. You'd be great. That's great. And I did relatively well in school grade-wise, and that is what happened. I was like really struggling, but I never learned more. didn't love any other class more than Hiss to barely eke out a B minus in the class.

But I probably learned more in that one class than just about all of my other college combined. At least I remember more from it. And it's because of the way that he did it. He even said, hey, my class is optional. Feel free. You don't have to come. You're in college. You're a growner now.

Come to class if you want. I'll put every single PowerPoint slide on a website so you don't have to come. Do whatever you want. And literally, every student was in his class every single time. Nobody missed the class. And it was just really interesting to see that type of approach because he put so much care into it. He obviously loved what he was teaching. And that, to me, like, I was so motivated to learn and want to.

And I learned so much. So I want to get back to this, though, Paul, because I think it's really nice and it's simple to say, yes, I want my child to be intrinsically motivated. And it's actually hard not to, you know, want to reward them when they get straight A's. I've done this. I know friends who have done this. It's hard. It's like the natural thing to do, I think. So this might be a tough question, but how do you develop a child to be intrinsically motivated? Well, I think that's part of it. I mean, I think it's not, not creating that that extrinsic reward structure. And so in my new book, I write about the self-determination theory of these two, psychology professors, Edward D.C. and Richard Ryan. And they read about this one study that I love

that looked at, I think it was pre-K students who were getting, who were just coloring, like the most basic kind of thing, right? And these researchers came in and at the end of this day of these kids coloring, they gave them blue ribbons. They said, you guys are really great colors. Because you're such good colors, you get a blue ribbon. And like when you hear this, you know, this is the sort of thing that happens in school all the time, right? But what they found, they did this experiment where they did that with half the kids and another half they didn't. And the kids who had gotten the blue ribbon, they became less interested in coloring. The coloring had become this job for them that you did for ribbons and it no longer had this kind of intrinsic motivation. It was no longer fun. And this is like

the most basic thing, right? Coloring is for a pre-K student is what they love to do. And so what DC and Ryan and others take from that study and studies like it is that study and studies like it is that creating a system of rewards and punishments around academic work or around any sort of intellectual activity, often over the long term disincentivizes kids. It makes them less eager to do the hard work. And so I think part of it is holding back at that moment where you're trying to, where you think like my kid got straight is, I want to, I want to reward him or her. Don't. I mean, you know, I mean, I think it's fine to celebrate together and to say, like, yeah, you, you know, you pushed hard through this particular subject and you bounced back. You know, all those moments, I think, are great for families to talk about.

But just doing it strictly with grades, I think, creates, it can't help but create that kind of extrinsic motivation for kids. And so, so I would encourage parents when they're talking with their kids about schoolwork to do it not, you know, to take, to take, take the external rewards out of it as much as possible, including grades. And I struggle with this again as much as any parent. But one thing that I really try to do is keep my praise for my son's success for moments of him overcoming difficulty. So if he gets every question right on a test or on a worksheet because it was pretty easy for him, like I'm not going to praise that.

If there's a kind of question that he's really struggling with and kind of freak doubt about and doesn't enjoy doing and says he can't do. But then the next day he like calms down and gets through it, I'll definitely praise that, you know, and I'll talk and I'll try and do it. Again, I'm very influenced by Carol Dweck. I'll try and do it by talking not about like, hey, you're smart for having answered that question, but like I really liked the way that you, you know, you were able to do it calmly. You really struggled with it the first time, but then you were able to succeed the second time. All of those messages I think are really important for kids and I think they really relate to them.

Like that is actually, I think we all as adults kind of know this. Like this is what makes us feel good, right? When we have a problem that we can't solve and then we figure it out and overcome it, that feels great. And I think when we can help kids understand that those are the moments where they should feel successful

rather than the moment when they bring home a report card full of A's. I think that's going to help them continue to have that kind of intrinsic motivation. And another aspect of I talked with Jess Leahy about this where is hopefully there's comment sections on those report cards as well as well as well as utilizing parent teacher conferences to really ask you know ask questions about your child how how are they from a

you can ask those questions how do they handle tough moments in school how do they treat their peers when when things are hard how do they treat you as a teacher like i like to ask those and then have a conversation after the conference or maybe some of the comments on the report card so that that that we focus on that as well and not just did you get an a in the class i think that that that goes hand in hand. Yeah, I agree. Question, Paul, there's, in this day and age, there are a lot of now, they're popping up all over place, high priced preschools from age six weeks on. I've put children in these before. I'm actually signed up to do it again, to one that is really well known and I think does a good job. Is that investment, which in some cases, it's like college tuition, seriously,

I'm sure you've seen it. Is that investment worth it? It's hard to say. I think it depends on any given family. I mean, certainly a good, a high-quality, free school and pre-K environment is important for kids. You know, I think the research suggests that for well-off kids, they're getting so much positive stimulation at home that from an academic point of view, like pre-K is not actually delivering all that much to them. It makes a, you know, from an economics point of view, it makes much more of a difference in the lives of low-income kids who aren't getting the same kind of stimulation and maybe support at home.

And so, you know, from a straight up, like, how much is this improving their future employability? You know, spending tens of thousands of dollars on pre-K is probably not worth it, right? Yeah. But I think, you know, I mean, I think families are making decisions for all sorts of reasons. I think if a family is sacrificing a lot of other things for a really expensive pre-K, when there's like a pretty good free pre-K or inexpensive pre-K down the street, yeah, I'd say that investment is probably not worth it. And I think there's the risk that it sends a message to kids, even at age four, that like,

well, all the pressures on you. You know, the family is like putting all of its resources into you learning these, you know, learning out of finger paint and learning out of it. how to read the alphabet and things like that. And I think that can put a lot of pressure on kids. And really, especially in the early years, what they need is like a place to play and peers to play with and a nice, warm, supportive environment and parents to hang around with them

and, you know, to do nursery rhymes and peek-a-boo. And so if in your, I mean, every family's finances are different, but if, for instance, like a family is making the decision of like, well, the parents are going to work much harder and stay at work much later so that we can afford this, expensive pre-K, but the other option is like, no, we're not going to work so hard, but we're going to, like, spend a lot more time playing patty cake on the rug. I'd go for the patty cake, you know, like that. That's the kind of moments for kids that I think make a big difference.

What are some tactical things that parents, and this could even, this, this works in business, too, like with people who maybe if you're in a leadership role, I mean, I think a lot of it, there's a lot of correlation between being a manager or a leader and a business and being a parent. I've done both. I like actionable, implementable tips. So things that people could listen to this podcast, Paul, and they're like, I learned this from Paul Tough on Ryan's podcast. And I know you could also go to Paul Tough.com to learn some of these things.

There's some interactive ways to learn this. But I'm curious, in addition to going to your website, what could somebody do if they implemented it right now to develop great? And let's say they have three children ages 2, 6, and 12 mix of boys and girls. And they say, I think my kids might be spoiled or I'm worried that they're not developing grit. Like maybe I did when I was a kid. What would you say to them that they could potentially do right now? Well, so I'm going to try and sort of steer the question away from the idea that there

are like specific 10 tips that you can do immediately and sort of change. and that's all you need to do. I mean, what I read about in this new book in helping children succeed is that the development of non-cognitive skills, character strengths, things like grit and curiosity and self-control and conscientiousness,

that they are not things that we can teach kids, the way we can teach them, math and reading and every other academic subject. Instead, that they are the product of children's environment. And the environments that matter most are the environments of relationships that they have in childhood with, especially with their parents, but with the other adults in their lives as well, and the messages, the psychological messages that they get from those

environments. And so as a parent, what matters are those psychological messages. And we send those messages sometimes, you know, very explicitly and verbally in terms of, you know, a lot of the things you and I have been talking about how we talk about report cards, how we talk about homework, how we talk about, you know, moments of ethical dilemmas or struggle at school, literally the words we use to talk to our kids at those moments are incredibly powerful and important. But it goes beyond the verbal as well. I think the messages that we send, especially the messages that we send about success and failure to our kids

in terms of how we react to their successes and failures, how we model for them our reactions to our own successes and failures. Those are the things that are shaping kids in this non-eastern. cognitive dimension. And so as a parent, I think you need to really think about all of those, all of those moments and all of those messages. And are you sending messages that encourage kids to think about success and failure in very short term and narrow ways? Or are you encouraging them to think about success and failure in deeper ways and to think about setbacks and failures as as learning moments, as steps along the road to success, when I think you can do that. And I don't think there are, you know, six specific things to do.

I think it's something that happens in all kinds of moments all the time between parents and children. But when you can create that kind of environment and model that for your children, I feel like that is the biggest gift that you can give them. I love it, man. That's a, thank you so much for that. Another thought. What role does athletics play or how can you?

it help and with kids, especially when it comes to failure, when they keep score of the game and your child tries and does everything they can to win and they lose. How does that impact a child in growing up? I think having kids be in any situation like sports where they're getting, where they're doing two things. One is where they're really competing and there are winners and losers and sometimes they win and sometimes they lose. I feel like. That is a really valuable situation for kids to be in when they're getting the right kind of messages and support from you and other adults surrounding those moments. And then the other thing that I think is really valuable about being involved in athletics is actually the experience of being coached. So I wrote in my previous book How Children Succeed about this chess teacher named Elizabeth Spiegel, a chess coach, who was in charge of a chess team at a public school in Brooklyn Intermediate School 318 that had the best middle school.

chess team in the country. And I realized watching her and reporting on her for a couple of years that what she was doing that was so helpful to her students was helping them figure out how to manage failure, how to deal with loss and setbacks. And when you play chess, you lose all the time. You're constantly making mistakes. You lose about half your games, no matter how good you are. And so what made a difference for her is that she was able to get them to look really honestly and straightforwardly at their own mistakes, at their own failures. And to analyze, those and to learn from those. And that not only is a great way to learn chess,

it's also a great way to learn character, you know, a great way to develop the ability to bounce back from setbacks, to, you know, care about whether you win or lose, but to separate yourself a little bit from those victories and losses as well. And so I think that absolutely can play out in a chess, over a chess board with a good chess coach. But it's also the same thing is happening with music teachers, with art teachers, with basketball coaches.

with track coaches, anyone who's in that coaching situation, you can say, well, here's what you did wrong and here's what you can do to do better and try it again. That whole process of being coached, I think, is enormously helpful for kids. So if they've got a great coach and that coach is sending the right kind of messages around winning and losing at success and failure, I think sports can be incredibly helpful for kids, but I think so can, you know, music or chess or anything else when they're in that kind of competitive coaching environment. Absolutely. It makes me think of Anders Erickson, Malcolm Gladwell, 10,000-hour rule typically only works

if you've got deliberate practice and deliberate means you have somebody willing to give you honest, direct feedback on what you're doing. You can't just go out and hit golf balls. It's helpful to have somebody teaching you and coaching you. It makes so much sense the same way for kids growing up. This has been so good, Paul. I love it. And I love all the stuff you have provided at paultaff.com.

Where else, or is there anywhere else, you would send people to learn more about you online? So if they go to paultaff.com and click on information for my new book, which is called Helping Children Succeed, there's this, we're doing a web presentation of the book that has videos and links to research and charts and all sorts of things. So I would encourage people if they're interested in learning more to head over there. Thank you so much, Paul for being here. I really appreciate it. I'm going to be continuously studying your work and probably be bugging you with questions

as we progress on this journey. So I'm so thankful. Thank you. Great. Well, thank you for the conversation. I really enjoyed it. Absolutely. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time.

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