The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 155: Russ Roberts - A Guide To Human Nature & Happiness

Starting point is 00:00:00 If you stayed out longer, wouldn't you be able to, you know, you could get a bigger distribution network. You could probably not just feed this local restaurant with fish. You could probably go up and down the coastal. I could do that. And then you could take that money and you could get a bigger boat. And the fisherman says, and then what? Well, you could, if you filled that boat and you did a good job, you could hire some people around. You could get a bigger boat.

Starting point is 00:00:23 And then you could have a fleet. And the guy says, yeah, and then what? He says, well, then you could branch out even further. up the coast, you could go over here and there. And the next thing you know, you'd be a half a franchise, you get your brand name going, guys, says, and then what? He said, well, you'd be so wealthy. He says you could take off in the afternoon.

Starting point is 00:00:39 You could go have lunch with your wife, and then you could play the guitar and take a nap. And it's the exact same story that, I think it's Plutarch tells about Paris and Sinius. It's like most of the good things in life you can have right now. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful

Starting point is 00:01:04 leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. Hey, and welcome to The Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk, and thank you so much for being here. I love this conversation with our featured leader, Russ Roberts. Every once in a while, there is a book that just knocks me on my back, and Russ Roberts has written one of those. It's called how Adam Smith can change your life, an unexpected guide to human nature and happiness. And that's why I love this platform of The Learning Leader Show,

Starting point is 00:01:51 because it gives me the opportunity to reach out to people who can change the way I think, change the way I feel, and most importantly, change the way I act. And Russ Roberts has done that with this book. A few of the topics we got into. Why we should all behave as if there is an impartial spectator constantly watching us and how that would affect our behavior.

Starting point is 00:02:11 And then he defines how to be good. Very interesting point. Hint, say little, do much. Be a doer, not a talker. Ladies and gentlemen, I could not be more excited for Russ Roberts. Hey, Russ, so one of the cool things, first of all, I'm very happy and excited to have you here on the Learning Leader Show. One of the cool things about this podcast is occasionally, and quite often I can be so impacted by somebody's work that it just makes me immediately want to call them or send them an email and say,

Starting point is 00:02:58 I need to talk to the guy who wrote that book. And so I, Ryan Holliday mentioned to me that I needed to read a book called How Adam Smith can change your life, an unexpected guide to human nature and happiness. And the author is Russ Roberts, who happens to be you. So first of all, thank you so much for being here. Oh, my pleasure. We'll definitely get in the book. But I have a question to get us rolling, and that's around, you know, throughout your life, you've been around, you've studied, you are somebody who has sustained excellence over an extended period of time.

Starting point is 00:03:36 You don't have just a one-hit wonder. I'm curious from your perspective, what are some of the common themes or characteristics people who have sustained excellence all seem to share? Well, the people I've learned the most from, which would be one-on-one. way of thinking about your question. The people who have changed my thinking or influenced my thinking, they have probably many things in common, or many things probably not in common, but a couple things they do have in common are that, one, they keep learning. I think being intellectually alive is an incredibly important part of being a thinking human being. So trying not to be too stuck in your ways in terms of what interests you, being passionate about the

Starting point is 00:04:17 things that do interest you. So that would be one thing, is just a passion about learning, being passionate about growing and thinking of understanding things that you didn't understand before. That would be one. The second thing, I think, is the fact that, you know, I've been very lucky to have my own podcast. And as you say, it's really an amazing thing that you can be around. I think of it as being able to have conversations with people that are smarter than I am. And I think being willing to do that is a really important way to keep growing. So those are two things that I think of the importance of learning and being around people who learn is really wonderful.

Starting point is 00:04:59 The third thing is you have to be open to people who think outside the box. So you have to be open to people who weren't trained or educated in traditional ways. So I've really enjoyed one person I think of when I think about that is Kevin Kelly, who I don't think went to college or didn't graduate from college. I don't think he may not even have gone. And his brain works differently than most people. Now, it probably would have worked differently if he'd gone to college, but it didn't get smoothed out and the corners didn't get rounded the way I think a certain type of education does to some people. So, you know, explore the world, especially the way people think and not be open to learning about it is what I think is so important. It's interesting to hear you mentioned Kevin Kelly, who was also a guest on the show.

Starting point is 00:05:43 Super interesting guy, obviously really has opened my eyes. and mind up to new ways of thinking about and solving problems. But to hear you talk about the fact that it's a good thing to sometimes be around people maybe who have not had the formal education when you teach. I mean, that's what you do, right? I mean, that's part of your makeup is teaching people who are seeking out higher education. And not only you do that, but you do it at some of the best schools in the world. How do you, I'm curious from, it just seems like an interesting dynamic that you're looking for both people who have been educated from a higher perspective and those who have not.

Starting point is 00:06:29 Well, I think formal education is incredibly powerful, but I also think we romanticized a little bit and oversell it. I was a full-time professor for about 30 years teaching maybe a little over 30 years. And I loved a lot of it. Some of it didn't like so much, but I loved a lot of it. What I love the most was teaching somebody something they hadn't thought of before and watching a light bulb go on, which is one of the great things about being a teacher, maybe the great thing about being a teacher. You know, what I do now, I don't teach in the formal classroom. I teach in the informal classroom like you do, which I find even more rewarding in many ways. I can't give people the mastery of the details of economics, say, that I could in a semester-long or year-long class.

Starting point is 00:07:13 but instead I think I'm able to jar their thinking more partly because they're coming to me out of choice rather than to fulfill a requirement or to get a degree or a piece of paper and the thirst for knowledge and the ability to fulfill that thirst through modern technology like podcasts or videos. It's just it's such an exhilarating time to be alive as teacher and student. And I think all the time about how lucky I am to be alive in both those roles, and certainly as a teacher to be able to put stuff up on the web for people who are interested in finding it, as well as exploring things that, you know, before I'd either have to take a class or to wander down to the library and spend hours there, that I can sit in my comfortable chair in my living room and find out and interact with such amazing people around the world. It's just, it's really a wonderful thing.

Starting point is 00:08:05 You started in, what year did you start your podcast? Started Econ Talk in 2006, about 10 years ago. So I think it was March of 2006. We've now done over 500 episodes. Early on, I realized I had to do at least one a week. Or people would be disappointed, wouldn't come back, wouldn't realize it was a new one was out. So somewhere along the lines, somewhere along the early days, I started doing once a week. And then I stopped taking off a couple weeks at the end of the calendar year.

Starting point is 00:08:33 So I've done one a week for many, many years now. And it's a good kind of habit. Man, you got into it before this boom of the last few years. That's incredible. Yeah, I was late to blogging. And I felt that that was a mistake and that I had sacrificed some of my audience by being so late. And I thought, I'm going to try this podcast thing in the beginning. Somebody asked me to interview me and I asked them how many people would download the podcast.

Starting point is 00:09:02 And they said, oh, about 3,000. And I thought, wow, that's a big. lecture hall to be sitting in front of. That'd be great. I'd like to be in that room. So I want to try this. I didn't know whether I could do it every week. In fact, in the early days, people said, well, you're going to run out of people to interview.

Starting point is 00:09:19 That turned out not to be the problem. Fortunately. No, not at all. I found the same thing over 150 plus episodes now in a year and a half doing it. It seems like the more you do it, the more options for incredible leaders in my case, become aware or become open to either in some cases asking to come on the show you probably have a lot of that where at the beginning it was a thousand percent cold calling trying to get people to come on and now it's like hey you're having to say no more than you are having to cold reach out for other people

Starting point is 00:09:54 yeah and as somebody who loves books the idea that I would have a job where people would send me books that I didn't have to pay for I actually now discourage people from sending me books I want I want digital versions, even though I still like to read real books. I like them both, but I don't want my potential guests to send me their book because I'm going to run out of room in my house. Speaking of books, so that's initially I mentioned at the very beginning. That's why we got started after Ryan Holiday said, you got to read this book, how Adam Smith can change your life. And Russ, I guess to be completely honest, my first question was, I don't know who Adam Smith is. Who is that?

Starting point is 00:10:31 And I think probably talking to you, you're saying, are you kidding me? like, how do you not know who this guy is? He's been dead for a long time. Yeah. Yeah, true. That's okay. But I picked it up. And so obviously, like you, I'm reading constantly, always picking something up.

Starting point is 00:10:48 And very rarely, I mean, I think there's so many good books I've read. I've talked about a lot of them on this podcast. But every once in a while, one of them just kind of knocks me down. And that's what, this is one of those books. In a good way. In a great way. in an incredible life-changing way. I think the other book before this one that did it to me,

Starting point is 00:11:08 and people know this who listened to this show, was Give and Take by Adam Grant. And just because it changed my view of the world that givers can be and will be successful. And so talk to me about your process for wanting to write a book titled How Adam Smith Can Change Your Life. Because it's kind of an interesting title. When I first saw it, I'm like, what does that even mean?

Starting point is 00:11:30 And then I got into it. And we'll dig into some of the chapters and some of the quotes that I pulled from it to dive deeper. But what made you want to do this initially? So some of your listeners out there may know that Adam Smith is an economist. He's Scottish. He lived in the 18th century, 1723 to 1790. And his famous book is The Wealth of Nations, which some people would call the first book of economics. It's not.

Starting point is 00:11:58 But it's the first widely read and the most influential early book. book on economics. And he's just, you know, a great writer. He's entertaining. Some of his ideas and concepts are hard to access in the 21st century. But the wealth of nations is fun to pick up, even though it's an old book, was published in 1776, a really important year. So he wrote another book called The Theory of Moral Sentiments. And as an economist, I always felt I should read that book. And I owned it. I bought it probably when I was in graduate school. I'd never opened it. And somewhere, I think in the 90s, somebody told me about this great quote from Adam Smith. And I said, yeah, that's fantastic.

Starting point is 00:12:37 Where is that in the wealth of nations? He said, well, it's not in the wealth of nations. It's in his other book, The Theory of Moral Sentiments. And I made a metal note, I actually read that book. And finally, I sat down and read it, and it was a revelation. There is some economics in it. But it's really a theory of human nature from an economist's perspective and his ideas of what makes us tick. And it turns out that what made us tick in the 18th century is not that different from what makes us tick today.

Starting point is 00:13:09 We still have the same fears, desires, dreams. Not much has changed. And I got excited about the possibility of getting people to read that book. And I realized, having tried to get people to read lots of books in my life, some books are easier than others. And I realized that no one, if I handed them this book or gave it to them as a gift. was going to pick it up and just sort of breeze through it because the language is awkward. It's, although parts of it are delightful and funny and just any time, there aren't that many books written in 1759 that are going to be that accessible. So my goal was to write a book that would take the lessons of Smith and put them into modern English and apply them to modern situations of family work, etc.

Starting point is 00:13:59 You know, the title's a little bit tongue and cheek. You know, how Anacinth can change your life is a little dramatic. But it changed mine. It really forced me, when I read his book, it forced me to see myself in the eyes of others. And I think that's an incredibly powerful lesson for life. And to start to think about how you're perceived and how you perceive others and how those interacting perceptions affect your happiness, your success, your morality. and everything else,

Starting point is 00:14:30 which is really a powerful thing for me. And so that's what my book tries to do, is to give the flavor of that without having to read the original. I hope people do read the original. It's on the Library of Economics and Liberty. You can read it for free. You can buy nice editions out there,

Starting point is 00:14:45 and that's a great book. But if you don't want to do that and you want to read an application of those ideas, that's what I tried to do. I want to get into it. I know from speaking with writers and authors, who, especially the ones who have written multiple books, which you have, and this one is a couple years old now, that I realize that as funny as it sounds, authors can sometimes actually

Starting point is 00:15:11 forget some of the things that they've written. So forgive me if we run into something that is more fresh on my mind because literally I was reading it as early as 20 minutes ago, and you probably haven't picked it up in maybe a little bit of time because you're on to other things. But like when someone says to me, you know, like sometimes, if I'm talking to a person who thinks a little bit deeper or they're more philosophical, they'll say, you know, how should you live a good life or how should you live? And this is something that I pulled one of my notes that I thought was interesting. So answering the question

Starting point is 00:15:43 how to live. Seek wisdom and virtue. Behave as if an impartial spectator is watching you. Use the idea of an impartial spectator to step outside yourself and see yourself as others see you. Use that vision to know yourself. Avoid the seductions of money and fame, for they will never satisfy. I'd love to hear more from you on everything you learned in that aspect of Adam Smith's work. So I start with this quote, which is, you know, it runs through my book and it's in a couple places in Smith's book, but for me it sort of crystallized his thinking, which is man naturally desires not. only to be loved, but to be lovely. And so he says, we want to be loved and lovely as human beings.

Starting point is 00:16:34 And, you know, writing in the 18th century, he said, ma'am, but he meant people. We want to be loved and lovely. And by those words, he did not mean the way we use them in modern times. He meant not just romantic love by being loved. He meant respected, honored, praised, paid attention to. So what he's saying is that we care deeply about what other people think of us. And I think there's a certain obviousness to that, but I think we often underappreciate how much we care. And we like to pretend that we don't many times when we care very deeply.

Starting point is 00:17:08 So if you want to make it an ugly way to phrase that would be, we're not authentic. We just react to what other people think of us. That's not what Smith is saying. What he's really saying is that the connections we make with the people around us are the things that give life its meaning. And I think that's undeniable. I think that's our truest source of happiness, our truest source of happiness, our truest source of satisfaction, our true source of serenity. We want to matter to other people. We want to be praised, respected, not compliment it all the time. That's not what Smith means, but that

Starting point is 00:17:37 the people think of us as being good people. And I think that's undeniably true. And then he says, we don't just want to be love. We want to be lovely, meaning we want to earn that respect and honor and praise and affection. We want to earn it honestly and authentically by being lovable, respectable, honorable, praiseworthy. And I think that's also true. I think certainly we don't mind and often we deliberately or unconsciously fool people about the goodness that we have inside us. But most of the time we want to actually be good. We don't just want to have people think that we're good. We want to actually have accomplished things that earn the respect and praise and honor of the people around us. So what Smith is saying is that that's what drives us. That's the single biggest thing that creates our own

Starting point is 00:18:26 sense of serenity, happiness, meaning, and I think there's a lot to that. And then he tells us, he warns us about the right and wrong way to be loved, the right and wrong way to have people pay attention to us, the right and wrong way to matter. And he says, inevitably, it's the rich, famous, and powerful who get the most attention, who people are most interested in. And we see that all the time. You can see it in the Olympics right now. You can see it in the political sphere, political candidates, great athletes, great rock stars, great actors, people who are rich and famous and powerful, when they walk into a room, they command the room. Everyone turns to them. They want to be part of that. They want the selfie. They want to hear, they want to be

Starting point is 00:19:14 interact. They want any kind of attention they can get from those people. And so what Smith says is that we are often seduced into trying to earn love, earn respect, earn attention by acquiring money, by acquiring fame or power. And he says, that's really the wrong way to go. Perhaps ironically, to some people, as an economist, he says, don't try to get rich. It's not going to make you particularly happy. And not only that, you're going to do some things along the way you'll regret when you get older and attain that financial success.

Starting point is 00:19:48 If you're not careful, you'll step on people and basically degrade yourself and do shameful things if you're not careful. So he's not an ascetic. He's not saying he should live like a monk or a pop or a beggar. But he's saying if you make money your central pursuit in this idea that it's going to make you happy. And he says, by the way, it's not going to make you happy for sure by having more material stuff, but it may make you more respected and honored because people look up to you. And of course, that's generally true. rich people do get a lot of attention. But he says, that's the wrong way to go.

Starting point is 00:20:21 He says, the right way to go if you want to be loved is to be wise and virtuous. So he says there's a glittering path. That's the money, fame, and power. And it's a not so glittering path. That's the wisdom and it's a quieter path. And then finally, the last part of that section you read, he says, you know, he talks about how do you get to the right path? How do you figure out what's virtuous?

Starting point is 00:20:42 How do you know when you're faced with a moral decision, the right thing to do? And by a moral decision, he doesn't just mean some question about whether to embezzle funds or lie on your expense account. He's talking about the decisions we make every day about who to pay attention to and who's important and how to give up time for our friends and family as opposed to pushing our career forward. These are the central dilemmas of everyday life that everybody faces who's fortunate enough to live in a modern society. And he says to do that well, you need to step outside yourself because you're prone to deletions. illusion, self-deception. You're prone to believe you're lovely when you're not. So if you want to actually be lovely, you've got to learn to know yourself. And he gives us a technique for doing that. He doesn't see it as a technique. He actually sees it as a way of thinking about how people behave,

Starting point is 00:21:31 which is the impartial spectator. And I suggest taking that observation of his and turning into a technique. So what Smith says is that when we try to decide whether to do a particular act or not and whether we're doing the right thing, We think as if there were someone watching us who is not on our side, not against us, but not on our side, impartial. You might think of that person as being an objective witness to our actions. And that's a very powerful, powerful way to think about things, whether or not people actually act as if they have such a spectator as if that's what drives their conscience. Put that to the side, what I suggest is that that idea can help us be better people and to know ourselves better. better, be better parents, better children, better coworkers, better friends.

Starting point is 00:22:22 And so what Smith is suggesting is that by imagining that person watching us, it's a way, that's where our conscience comes from. It says it's not your parents, not your religion. They can affect things, of course. But what really shames us is the shame people feel. It's not just a feeling I've let my parents down or have let God down. It's the idea that people around me are going to not respect me anymore. That is so horrifying to most of us and so frightening.

Starting point is 00:22:52 And he says, that's really what motivates us, that they won't respect us if we do something shameful and that they will respect us and honor us if we do something that's positive. And I think those are, I think he's really on to some. Well, especially, so a couple things there. When it comes to the impartial spectator, I think that one of the ways I try to view this, and this comes from probably my background playing football. in the fact that every single rep I took in practice and all my games was filmed. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:23:20 Okay? And so I think if you view your life, especially I think of this, I don't know why, but like if I get frustrated with it with one of my children and I, let's say I raised my voice and I'm thinking, what if this was being filmed and I was going to watch it with a coach the next day? Like my football practice. And that's how I try to view it. Now, obviously I fail.

Starting point is 00:23:42 unfortunately more than I wish to even admit. But when I think of it that way, it absolutely impacts the way I act and the patience that I live my life with, the ability to try to remain calm in those tough moments as a parent when you get frustrated. And I think of that, like maybe in every aspect of my life, though, when I'm going, if you're in a meeting and you're thinking, what in the world are they talking about? but you think I think of let me view this in the spectrum of being filmed in the fact that I'm going to watch this with a coach and teammates and they're going to see my behavior and that has an impact on the way that I act and I think that's when I think of an impartial spectator that is I think an approach we all can take and if you truly think of it in that regard it will impact your actions yeah I give the example the book of the time I was having an argument with my wife and I was acting defensively and I got, you know, it was my fault, basically, or it was something that wasn't important, but I didn't like the idea of it.

Starting point is 00:24:43 And so I'm kind of raising my voice. And later I'm thinking, well, that was shameful. I should have done that. And I apologize to her. I said, I don't know why I was so strident in that conversation. It really wasn't important. And if any was my fault. And I was telling that story to someone. And I realized if that person had been in the backseat of my car, but we're having that conversation, none of that would have happened. There's no way I would have talked to my wife the way I did if some was in the car with us. And similarly, I give the example, you can be having an argument with somebody in face-to-face, and your phone rings, and you realize, oh, I have to take this because I promised or there's a crisis. So you take the call. And all of a sudden, your voice goes from, like, being raised and strident to, oh, hey, hello. And how do you do that? Well, the fact that you can do it, and you can, and we all do it, tells you that you could control yourself if you worked at it more effectively when there wasn't an actual person listening in. The kids example he gave is perfect. There are times when I lost my temper with my kids. And I realized, you know, if someone had heard me say that, boy, that would be embarrassing. So how about not doing it even when no one will hear it? Because your kids hear it. Exactly.

Starting point is 00:25:50 And Smith's point is that you hear it. And so you have this natural mechanism to try and do a better job. And it's hard to do. It's, I don't, you know, as you said, it's not easy. It doesn't work every time. But at least there's a process there to help push it forward. The phone example is so good because we've all done that. We're heated.

Starting point is 00:26:09 We're in the middle of something, but you have to take a call. Maybe it was from your boss or something. Yeah. And all of a sudden, you're like, oh, hey, how's it going? And it's like within two seconds, you're able to change from being this crazy person to being completely normal. Just flip a switch. Yeah. How come you can't do that?

Starting point is 00:26:25 You know, I love this idea that, you know, when you get angry and it's an issue I work on, you know, when you get angry, the anger, the anger controls you if you're not careful. But you can control the anger. And that's so liberate when you realize, you know, I really have that switch at my disposal if I want to control it. I think one of the challenges we have with anger or frustration or despair, many of the challenges of everyday life, is that kind of get into a habit of enjoying them. Yeah. It's really fun to be angry and resentful and bitter, which is weird. But it can be, you feel like it's cathartic. I need to get this out of my system.

Starting point is 00:27:04 Yeah. How about just say and say bye? You are not going to be in charge. I don't need you. And that's a, you know, I just, you know, as I decide, I don't give much, many suggestions in the book for how to get there from here. But I was going to use the impartial spectator. But since I wrote the book, I've done some meditation and meditation and mindfulness are just a very powerful way to create the impartial spectator. It's a way to get you to be aware of those emotions and say, hey,

Starting point is 00:27:35 I don't have to, this doesn't have to be me. This isn't me. This is something else. I don't like this to me. It's part of me, but I don't need to have it be the central essence of me. And I'm going to let it. I'm just going to push it aside. The other part of that, that, and there's other notes I want to get to, but is the, and you brought it up, when somebody tells me that they don't care what others think about them, I'm always quite skeptical.

Starting point is 00:27:57 Yeah. I, you know, I'll just use this podcast as an example. I care deeply what people think of this. and what they think of me as a host. I can't fathom doing anything with any amount of passion. When I played football, I cared so much what, especially my teammates and my coaches and even fans, I cared what they thought of my performance, and I really care about what they think of my.

Starting point is 00:28:23 So when somebody gives me a compliment, you can bet I'm going to look them in the eye and say, thank you. Like, it means a lot to me. Or they send a nice email. I'm going to respond to that. and so when someone's like, oh, I'm just doing this for me. It's just for me, man. So I'm just having a good time.

Starting point is 00:28:37 I'm not. I'm like, if anyone listen, doesn't matter. No. No. No. That's just not true. I mean, I don't, I have yet to meet someone, I'm trying to think, where I truly fully believe when they're like, I don't care, man.

Starting point is 00:28:52 Like, I mean, maybe there are a few out there. There's always exceptions. But for the most part, if you're performing anything, whether it's a job, you're a spouse, You have a podcast, you're a writer, you're an artist. I mean, how do you not care what people? Of course, if you put time and effort and passion into it, of course you're going to care what people think about it. And I think the challenge there is if you go too far on the other side,

Starting point is 00:29:16 and I think this is why people say they don't care when they actually do, but they like this idea that they don't care. And if you're not careful, you do only things to please other people, right? That's, if you say I'm an artist, and instead of taking my vision and bring it to the page or to the canvas or to the music, I'm just going to do whatever is the most popular thing so I can make the most money. And that people look down on that. And there's a reason they look down on it and it's inauthentic.

Starting point is 00:29:47 But if you are authentic and you do bring your unique vision, of course you care about. You're not going to – when you say I don't care, what you should be meaning, I hope, is that I'm not going to change just to be popular. Right. But I sure would like to be popular. I'd love if my vision is, I'd love to double the size of my listening audience and change more people's lives

Starting point is 00:30:06 and educate and entertain more people. Or otherwise, what's the point? What am I doing this for? Right, but have to be authentic and new. I think you also mentioned the book, like the Enron guys or Bernie Madoff, they almost wanted to get caught because they weren't being lovely.

Starting point is 00:30:22 They knew that their way of becoming, rich and semi-famous was because they were cheating. And so people like that, you want to be loved and you want to be lovely. And so they might have been loved, but they were loved and they knew it. Like even Lance Armstrong probably for the wrong reasons. And so those people, because sometimes they say, what is this person thinking like, or like Tiger Woods? Like they're obviously going to get caught. And you discuss the fact that those people almost want to get caught just because they know they're not lovely.

Starting point is 00:30:53 Yeah, I think they're stuck on a really bad treadmill. And they want somebody to turn it off, but they know that if they get off, it's going to be painful. So they just, they have to keep going. But there must be some kind of relief when they don't have to lie to themselves anymore into the world. And speaking of being honest, so another aspect of it that I like this part, because I've gotten this type of advice from a couple mentors of mine that I really trust. And here it is, how to be good. A prudent man is sincere and honest. Also, though, he doesn't volunteer everything he knows.

Starting point is 00:31:27 He is reserved and cautious in his speech and his action. He doesn't stick his opinion into every discussion. And basically it means say little, do much. And I've gotten this advice from mentors to say, the best leaders we've found in history have a measured approach. And I actually think of, this makes me think of my dad. He is one of the most measured guys in the room. room literally he'll wait to give his opinion and then when he does it just like shuts the room down

Starting point is 00:31:59 because it's so on point but he's not out there just raising his hands constantly in a meeting or wanting to get his opinion out there he waits and and everyone just goes oh yeah and it just almost ends the discussion in a good way because it's like yeah that's it and because the people who are constantly speaking up think of meetings that we all have been a part of they're constantly speaking up every other time, you're like, all right, can that guy just please be quiet? I like this aspect of the fact of say little, do much. Yeah, that's actually from the Talmud in a part of the Jewish wisdom literature about how to behave. And that's a particularly hard thing for me, say little and do much, because I want to talk all the time. It's funny, we have a podcast and we're saying that, but

Starting point is 00:32:43 you know. Yeah, it's part of the reason we have a podcast. It's fun to talk. And what Smith tells you, by the way, is that you want to be loved. It's like you're raising your hand, look at me, let me talk, let me show off. And we all have a little bit of that in us that some of us have too much. And what's been telling us is, you know, be aware of that. And there are times when you just need to stifle yourself, your desire to have attention, your desire to express yourself. And there are many meetings where I've talked too much, is I like to hear myself talk. And, you know, and I'm hoping the ratio's high enough to people go, oh, yeah, that was good. but it'd be better to talk once and say something wise like your dad.

Starting point is 00:33:21 And I think that's a huge challenge for many people. They like to hear themselves talk. And I read about this a lot in the book about conversation. It's a lot of conversationalists, a lot of people you interact with. They're just waiting for you to stop talking so they can start again. They're not actually listening. They're not actually, if anything, they're listening to find the next thing they can say that's related to it so they can get the floor back. And don't be that person, I say in the book.

Starting point is 00:33:45 It's a dance. It's not two solos, not two people soloing back and forth. It should be people dancing together in a good conversation. And I think that's hard for many of us. Yeah, I'm big on that. And me being, I think somewhat of a natural introvert, it's easier for me to do that anyway, that I prefer to kind of hang tight and analyze and see the situation before speaking up, which is actually part of the reason why I did this podcast,

Starting point is 00:34:15 because it would force me outside of that natural comfort zone to sit back and wait. And it's helped me. There's so many things I want to get to. So just a small thing. This happened to me last night. That's why I want to bring it up. You created a rule from a parenting perspective. The reason this brought,

Starting point is 00:34:31 I brought this up because I was walking to the park that's close to my home with my girls last night. You said you always take your child's hand when offered. It means holding their hand more often and also helps you remember to savor. That moment. It's something little. It's a little part of the book, but it left an impact on me to make me think about that. If they ask or even I will reach for it too. I think for people to think about savoring them, especially in today's times when we're constantly looking at our phones, we're all are probably guilty of this where we look at our phones and we shouldn't. But to look up and to take your child's hand when you're on a walk or when you're going to the park or when you're at home, I like that you created that rule for yourself. Well, there are times when my kids put up their hand. I didn't want to take it. I just wanted to be by myself. Either I wanted to walk up a little head of them or a little behind them or I just wanted to let my arms swing freely or whatever it was. And I realized at some point that how precious it is that they want to hold your hand and that you can give it, that you can give it. It's not just, it's great that they want to hold it, but that you can actually give that comfort and ease to them and love by just something's that simple, that low cost.

Starting point is 00:35:43 And so I just, and that's, you know, just part of a general set of principles that you're alluding to, which are, you know, your kid says, dad, dad, dad, dad, dad. And sometimes just want to say, stop calling my name. I just want to read this book. I just want to check my email. I just want to watch the game. Just give me a break. I need a break. And yet, you know, if you think about it, there's going to be a day when they don't need you anymore.

Starting point is 00:36:08 They don't want you anymore. In fact, they don't like you so much. They want to be on their own. And you ought to savor that moment when they say, Dad, and you ought to be grateful that it's there at all. And to have that opportunity to be a parent is such a glorious, miraculous, wondrous thing. And, you know, there's a wonderful two-minute video from Gregson Rubin. The years are short and the days are long. The days can be very long.

Starting point is 00:36:32 And sometimes you just want to break. But that's, I think, what you're here for. That's your job. And it's very hard as a parent, I think, to do that reliably. I'm not perfect at. I don't mean to suggest that I was when my kids were younger. They're now 16 and older. But when they were younger, sometimes there were days. I just had trouble given them the time that they needed me for. And I tried to remember as often as I could that, you know, to quote the great poet Billy Joel, these are the days to remember they will not last forever. And so if you have a sort of rule like that, always hold their hand, you'll be more likely, I think, to remember it and to say for those. moments. Yeah, I love that part of it a little bit, but it immediately impacted me to where I started. I'd like to think I've been good at that, but I also know, you know, when that important email comes in or texts or whatever, I, you know, I'm certainly guilty as a lot of us are. And it's like,

Starting point is 00:37:29 you've got to just put that down, man, and savor the moments. And you, and you fool yourself because you say, well, just this one, because this one's really important. And the truth is, there is no email that needs to be returned right now. None. You're exactly right. It could be in three minutes, ten minutes, probably even tomorrow, but you want to, you want to return it. And so you have this desire to convince yourself, to fool yourself, to deceive yourself. Yeah, it's urgent.

Starting point is 00:37:54 I'll just do this one. And then the next thing you know, you're off on Twitter and your kids, you know, cry. And it's just, it's a bad strategy. The other story that I want to bring up, I think there's a lot to this. And there was two different examples of this. And I think this is in relation to the person or people listening right now. And we're, again, I've had this be part of my life that is on this, I don't know the right word, this very aggressive career path where they need to check boxes and go to the next job and go to the next job and get promoted and get promoted and become and get titles and things like that.

Starting point is 00:38:33 And that's that's the story of, I'm going to pronounce these names wrong because I've only read them. haven't heard him. The story of Pyrus, P-Y-R-R-H-U-S, the king of Epirus. Mike Pyrriss is fine. Pierce, okay, a region of Greece. So he's planning, Pierce, this is obviously history, was planning to attack Rome. And his advisor, Cynius, C-I-N-E-A-S, Cineas, C-I-N-E-A-S, thinks it's a bad idea. And Pyrriss describes all the cities to conquer to Cineas and ask him, then what will we do? And Pyrus says, once we, you know, attack and conquer all these cities, he'll say, we will live at ease, my dear friend, and drink all day and divert ourselves with pleasant conversation.

Starting point is 00:39:19 And sinuous responds, and I love this. And what hinders your majesty from doing so now? The point is you don't have to conquer Italy to enjoy the fundamental pleasures of life right now. And I think this applies to the people I just describing me included that you don't have to make vice presidents. Yeah, like you don't have to go title chasing and box checking in order to what hinders your majesty from doing so now. You can do those things now because what was the other story you wrote about? I hope you remember it because I don't want to mess it up about the guy who had this nice little fishing business. Yeah, it's a Mexican fisherman. Can you have that? Yeah, sure. Can you share that story too?

Starting point is 00:39:57 It's the same. Yeah. What I loved about one of the reasons again that I fell in love with Adam Smith is that in this book is that there's so many things in there that are immortal. Yeah. That haven't changed at all. And this is one of them. So this is a story. Somebody sent me via email probably 20 years ago.

Starting point is 00:40:12 And it's about the, you can make it a CEO or an MBA is on vacation and this little sleepy Mexican fishing village. It's really a beautiful, idyllic place. And he says to the, he sees that around 1 o'clock in the afternoon, the fisherman coming in with his boat and it's full of fish or it's maybe it's not even full of fish, but there's fish in it. And these are going to be the fish that the vacationers are going to eat for. dinner that night at the local restaurant. He says to the guy, you know, could you have stayed out longer? He says, yeah, I could have, but, you know, I'm going to go home and have a nice meal with my family. I'm going to play the guitar. I might take a nap. And I'm just going to enjoy the day. And the business person says, yeah, but if you stayed out longer, wouldn't you be able to, you know,

Starting point is 00:41:00 you could get a bigger distribution network? You could probably not just feed this local restaurant with fish. You could probably go up and down the coast. I could do that. And then you could take that money and you could get a bigger boat. And the fisherman says, and then what? Well, you could, if you filled that boat and you did a good job, you could hire some people around you, you could get a bigger boat. And then you could have a fleet. And the guy says, yeah, and then what? He says, well, then you could branch out even further up the coast. You could go over here and there. And the next thing you know, you'd be a half a franchise. You get your brand name going. He says, and then what? So, well, you'd be so wealthy. He says you could take off

Starting point is 00:41:36 in the afternoon, you could go have lunch with your wife, and then you could play the guitar and take a nap. And it's the exact same story that I think it's Plutarch tells about Paris and Sinius. It's like most of the good things in life you can have right now. You don't have to be rich and famous and successful with those titles, but we're lured by those. And there's nothing wrong with them. There's nothing wrong with being ambitious. Nothing wrong. Smith doesn't, again, he doesn't say it's anything wrong with having money or wanting a nicer house or bigger car or whatever it is.

Starting point is 00:42:05 fancier car. But he says, if they make those, if those are your actual goal, boy, are you going to be disappointed. And you're going to miss out playing the guitar on top of it. Yeah. I'm going to get there. So I think it's really good advice. Yeah. I mean, it relates a lot to all of us to really analyze and think about what we do every day.

Starting point is 00:42:24 And my dad gave me this great advice when I was, this is a while ago when I was looking for being recruited for this, this bigger job than I had at the time. and he said, well, one, what are you going to do all day? Like, what does the job consist of? Yeah. He goes, will you like it? And then he would say, will it make you a better or worse husband? And that's how I would decide.

Starting point is 00:42:50 You know, I ended up not doing it. And he said, you know, if the commute is 40 minutes longer and this happens and that happens, I don't see how that's going to make you a better husband or be more happy, regardless of how much extra money is coming in. And it's not like, it's not, I don't, I think that's how you should view your life and your career, not in the sense of like you, like, you and I talked about of like, let me get this VP title or whatever it may be. And I thought that was just another great advice. I'm very fortunate to have that directly, you know, I can talk to them constantly to get that type of advice.

Starting point is 00:43:23 And it reminded me of the Mexican fishing story when the MBA or the CEO comes down and shares how this guy could do all these great. things and it would take him 20, 25 years. And at the end of that 25 years, he could, you know, play guitar and hang out with his wife when he could do that today. And so I think it's a good reminder for everyone to think about that because especially when I have, I have friends or other people who travel all the time, right, Russ, and you probably know people like this. And their kids are, you know, in their formative years, they're young. And there's certainly nothing wrong with that. That's how the world works. I understand. And you've got to take care of your family. You got to take care of it.

Starting point is 00:44:02 Food on the table. And nothing I'm saying, and I think either you're saying, says something beautiful about poverty. We're not talking about poverty versus being comfortable. Yeah. Talking about more. Do you really need more? Right. Exactly right.

Starting point is 00:44:15 And so I think that's just these are great reminders. And that's why this book just kind of hit me between the eyes because it made me think a lot and even change my actions. I think my friend Joey Coleman told me the best thing a speech can do. And I think a book is similar to this is changed the way you think. change the way you feel, and most importantly, potentially change the way you act. And that's how Adam Smith can change your life has done for me, Ross. And that's why I wanted to, the coolest thing about this podcast, I said at the beginning, is that I fortunately have a little bit of a platform to where when somebody knocks me on my back with their words, I immediately email them

Starting point is 00:44:55 or call them and say, I need to talk to you more. And that's what we're doing right now. That's what we've done. So I really appreciate you being here, Russ. I have one more question before we take off. When I first sent that, that cold email to you after reading this book, and it came from a guy who has a show called The Learning Leader Show. What was the first thought that came to mind when you saw the phrase learning leader? Well, I probably was thinking, I don't know why he wants to talk to me, but obviously. from what I said earlier in the program, learning leaders a nice phrase, right?

Starting point is 00:45:35 I think that's what we all want to be. Certainly we want to be learning, or I think we should be. I think one of the things that separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom is our ability to grow intellectually and morally and to think. So learning is the way we do that,

Starting point is 00:45:51 and I think that's a key part of life. And being a leader, I think a lot of people tend to think of a leader as a general in an army or a president or a CEO, and obviously that's a really unhelpful and narrow and inaccurate definition of leadership. Leadership is everything we do with the people around us that could inspire or touch them. So I think being a learning leader is a really nice ideal to aspire to. Thanks again, Russ, for being here.

Starting point is 00:46:20 I definitely want to continue talking. Where would you send my listeners to learn more about you online? So they can follow me on Twitter. I'm Econ Talker. They can listen or subscribe to my podcast, Econ Talk, which you can find on iTunes, SoundCloud, Stitcher, et cetera, as well as our own page, eConTalk.org, where we put up readings related to each week's episode and other stuff. My homepage, russroberts.com. I archive all the stuff I've written.

Starting point is 00:46:53 You can find my Canes Huyck rap videos there as well as on YouTube. So I'm pretty easy to find if people want to look. and more if they're interested. Awesome, man. Thanks again. As I said, I definitely want to continue this dialogue as we both progress. I appreciate it, Russ. My pleasure. Great job. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over,

Starting point is 00:47:12 but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to Learningleadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on

Starting point is 00:47:28 Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on The Learning Leader Show.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 155: Russ Roberts - A Guide To Human Nature & Happiness

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