The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 163: Amy Trask - Former NFL CEO: "You Negotiate Like A Girl"

Episode Date: September 28, 2016

Subscribe on iTunes  or Stitcher Radio The Learning Leader Show "No matter your industry, don't build walls: Communicate, Cooperate, Collaborate, Coordinate." In This Episode, You Will Learn: "To thine own self be true" -- Be yourself, focus on working hard and forging your own path As a graduate student, Amy cold called the Raiders asking for an unpaid internship 14 years later, she was hired as the CEO of the team The key was looking for projects to be part of (even if she wasn't initially chosen to do it) and add value to it Approaching work with an intense curiosity - Amy learned every role within the Raiders -- Even stuffing envelopes the proper way Learn about all parts of the overall business, not just what you do Amy was hired to work on contracts, but she ended up doing many different roles "Don't ever view something as "Not My Responsibility" - If you see it's a problem, then fix it" The day to day life of a CEO of an NFL team The Four C's To A Successful Career - Communicate, Cooperate, Collaborate, Coordinate "The only people not making mistakes are the ones who aren't trying" "You Negotiate Like A Girl" - Why use that title? Amy has operated without regard to gender her entire career The original title for her book was "Without Regard" Keys to being a great negotiator: You must find out what's important to each party... Some of the issues will be of no importance (let the opposing party have what is important to them if it's not important to you) "The best deals were forged when sitting alongside someone collaborating." No posturing, no lying -- Tell the truth Openly share what's important -- Create transparency "To thine own self be true" Continue Learning: Read Amy's Book: You Negotiate Like A Girl  To Follow Amy on Twitter: @AmyTrask To Follow Me on Twitter: @RyanHawk12 You may also like these episodes: Episode 078: Kat Cole – From Hooters Waitress To President of Cinnabon Episode 071: Nate Boyer - Green Beret, Texas Football, The NFL Episode 073: Jay Bilas - World Class ESPN Basketball Broadcaster, Toughness, Fixing The NCAA Episode 107: Simon Sinek – Leadership: It Starts With Why Did you enjoy the podcast? If you enjoyed hearing Amy Trask on the show, please don't hesitate to send me a note on Twitter or email me. Episode edited by the great J Scott Donnell The Learning Leader Show is supported by Daor Design - Daor Design will help you build your brand like nobody's business. Most of their work falls into one of four categories: Logo Design, Print Design, Web Design or Digital Marketing. They pride themselves in being a trusted, valued resource for their growing family of clients.

No matter your industry, don't erect walls, don't build divides between various components of an organization. I think the most important words for any business all begin with C. Communicate, cooperate, collaborate, coordinate. Those are four business imperatives in any industry. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk.

Hey, and welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk, and thank you so much for being here. I love this talk with the highly intelligent Amy Trekkers. Rask. Amy joined the Los Angeles Raiders as an intern in 1983 after cold calling the team's telephone switchboard and offering to work for free. That gutsy move eventually led to a full-time gig and started Amy on a path that culminated in her becoming the Raiders CEO in 1997. What an incredible story. She now currently has written a book titled You Negotiate Like a Girl Reflections on a career in the National Football League, and she works for CBS as an NFL analyst.

A few of the topics we got into. The importance of being yourself and creating the path that's right to you. She always says, to thy own self, be true, quoting Shakespeare. The four C's to success and then why collaborating is better than negotiating. Ladies and gentlemen, this one is so great with Amy Trask. Amy, I've been really looking forward to this conversation. So, one, thank you so much for being. here on the Learning Leader Show.

Well, thank you for joining me. It's a privilege and a pleasure. So I have a question. You have a remarkable career, and we'll get into the background, and through the intro of this episode, I've shared some of it. But most recently, you put a book out titled, You Negotiate Like a Girl, Reflections on a Career in the National Football League. You spent a great deal of time around high-level leaders and professionals.

And I'd love to hear from your perspective. What are some of the common characteristics or themes of great leaders who have sustained excellence over an extended period of time? That's a fascinating question. I don't know that I necessarily believe or agree that there is a common theme. Well, okay, stated a little differently, the commonality is not to try to find a common theme. there was advice given to me from the earliest age by my mother. And interestingly, embarrassingly, I didn't realize until I was in college that this wasn't advice my mother coin. It was actually shared by Shakespeare in Hamlet when Polonius said to Lertes, to thine own self be true.

So from the time I was a very little child all the way through into adulthood, my mother reminded. me to thine own self be true. I didn't know she was quoting from Shakespeare, but my point is, everybody needs to be true to themselves when being a leader, just as it's important to be true to oneself in doing anything.

If one is to lead, in my view, one has to lead as themselves. Really interesting. So, I mean, I think if they, and I understand, I think that's a really impressive way to view it and certainly different than most people because usually you get a few themes pulled out from

people, some of the basic ones that you would imagine like hardworking and dedicated and trustworthy, curious people and to be yourself. And it feels like that's the path that you've taken. And when studying your story and doing research prior to this call, I was just fascinated by the fact that when you're a law student in 1983, you make a cold call to the Raiders asking to work for them for free. Could you share that story of how you got started on your career? Of course. Let me back up though, if it's all right.

Yeah, yeah, of course. Something you just said about hard work. I absolutely positively ascribed a theory that hard work matters. When you ask the initial question, that didn't really strike

me as something specific to leaders, which is why I didn't include it. Yes, it absolutely positively applies to those who wish to lead, but I think it applies to everybody. Hard work matters. And the advice, when I'm asked advice by young women, what do I do to get ahead? What would you advise a young woman to do? My answer is, I'll advise you to do the same thing. I'll advise a young man, work hard, work really, really hard. And when you think you can't work any harder,

work harder. So yes, I agree with you that applies to leaders, but it applies to everybody. To answer your question about the anecdote, I was a graduate student, and I was in my first year, observed that there were people in their second and third years who were doing what they called internships and someone were referred to as externships. I've never really understood the difference, and I don't know that there is one. But I picked up the phone and I called the Raiders, then in Los Angeles, asked if I could speak with someone about doing an internship. The woman who answered the phone connected me with a gentleman who said very brusquely, what's that? And I said, well, I work for you and you don't pay me. And he kind of chuckled and he laughed and said, you know, chuckled,

laughed, well, come on down. And he connected me with a gentleman in the organization, Jeff Bearden, who was then the head of legal affairs, and frankly, throughout my entire career, oversaw the legal affairs for the team. And he brought me on as an intern, and that's when my relationship with the Raiders began. Not my relationship as a fan, but my relationship as an employee. How does one go from cold calling and earning a free internship in 1983 to becoming the CEO in 1997?

You know, hard work. And let me not be so flip as to just say it's simply hard work. I had the privilege and the pleasure, although on the day-to-day basis, it may not always have been as enjoyable as other days. But I certainly had the privilege of working for a man who hired without regard to race, gender, ethnicity, religion, or any other characteristic which has no bearing whatsoever on whether someone can do a job.

So when I share with you what worked for me, you know, I find it's important or I believe it's important to point out that I'm not oblivious to the fact that I had the opportunity I did because the man who hired me and promoted me and gave me this tremendous opportunity was unconcerned with my gender. So with that as a backdrop, I will tell you that I worked hard. You know, when I was an intern, I worked really, really hard. I didn't simply do it. It was asked. I looked for project and volunteered to do that, which wasn't asked. And then as a young employee, I was the first one in in the morning. I was the last one to leave.

That matters. That really matters. I don't believe in shortcuts. And so what were some of the jobs that you took a long way? I'm thinking the reason I asked this, Amy, is I'm thinking of somebody listening, and there are a lot of listeners like this. I get the emails from them who is early in their career. And they're like, wow, Amy Trass, this is incredible.

I didn't realize her story went from unpaid intern to CEO in really not that much time, about a decade and a half. And how could I potentially, and I know I completely agree with you. You have to understand you shouldn't try to follow somebody. else's path. However, I do think there is value in studying the success of many, many others. That's what we do on this podcast, over 160 plus conversations, studying the success of others in learning at least bits and pieces of how they did it to see how it could potentially apply to your own career. As you're listening, not that it's going to be a perfect blueprint, but just to learn some of

the details around massive career growth that you've had. Well, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm well aware of the discussions you have on your podcast, and I note that simply because I think they're terrific, terrific discussions. And as I said at the outset, it's really a privilege and a pleasure to join you. So I do think it's a tremendous discussion, and I am a fan of your podcast. I'm going to come back to the beginning of the conversation. To thine own self be true and figure out what as an employee is going to work best for you, in the environment in which you work, learn the environment in which you work, learn everything about the business in which you work.

I believe that one of the things that first caught Al's eye, when I began as an intern, and then again when I rejoined the organization a year or so later as a full-time employee, I wanted to know everything about the business, whether it was something that was my primary responsibility or not. So I wandered through the organization, and I asked people questions, and I volunteered to help. You know, Saturdays when I was in the office, the day before a home game, I went into the ticket office, and I said, let me help. And you know what? I stuffed envelopes for will call, and then I outlawful. I think I focused more on the alphabetizing than the stuffing.

I don't know that I was yet up to snuff on the full stuffing capabilities. But here I was hired to join the legal department. I was a young lawyer hired to work on contract. But you know what? On Saturdays, I alphabetized will call envelopes. And I made sure I knew what the weather was going to be like at game time or the projected whether at game time on a game day. Everything I could possibly know about the business, I wanted to know about the business.

And you know what? Word must have trickled back to Al about that. I'm sure plenty of people were complaining. What is this brand new employee doing, walking into every department and asking uddles of questions? But you know what? When he stopped me one day on the stairwell and asked me how many tickets we had sold for an upcoming game, I knew the answer.

to that. So learn about your business. And the one other thing I'll say before I stop this very long answer and turn it back over to you is don't ever view a job as not my responsibility. Nothing bothered me

more. Well, one thing did. Not many things bothered me more than employees who had an attitude or an approach that suggested if something wasn't in their sphere of primary responsibility, or if something was perhaps viewed by that employee as beneath him or beneath her, uh-uh, uh-uh, uh-uh, if the job needs to be done,

it's everyone's responsibility to get it done. What a great, great answer, Amy, and it's just fantastic advice for anybody listening, regardless of your new or experience in your career. I find that that sense of curiosity to learn, to try to understand as much as possible about many different facets of a business is certainly one of the things,

I'm sure many things, that separated you from others. And so I'm curious, then you become the CEO of the Raiders. What is the day-to-day job of the CEO of a professional football team like? Part of craziness and, zaniness of working in professional football and I imagine sports in general is no two days are the

same. And I love that. Over an almost 30 year career, no two days were the same. I don't, I don't know that there's an answer I can give you as to what happens day to day when every single day is different. And you know what? That's the fun of a dog. How involved were you with player acquisition making decisions on who to sign, how much money to give them, draft picks, things like that? Very, very, very little. For those of your listeners who know about Al Davis and know about the Raiders, know that Al controlled our football operations, our football decisions, not our day-to-day operations. But Al oversaw our draft process. Al oversaw free agent acquisitions.

Al was, look, he's a Hall of Fame football man. And for some of your younger listeners who only remember those waning years of his life and thus the team's performance, they may forget that he has a storied, storied successful career. So, you know, did I offer my opinion? You bet. Did I offer my opinion more than Al would have liked me to? I know that's the case. But my day-to-day responsibilities were overseeing the business operations of the organization.

And I'll say very quickly that I don't believe that one should view any organization as having distinct sides, if you will. So I always bristle when someone would say football side, business side. Well, you know what, our business was football. So you can't differentiate football and business. It's all one organization. And I would say to your listeners who are not in the sports, no, no matter your industry, don't erect walls, don't build divides between various components of an organization.

I think the most important words for any business all begin with C, communicate, cooperate, collaborate, coordinate. Those are four business imperatives in any industry. I'm a big believer that it's okay to make a mistake on the job. The only people who never make mistakes in business are people who really aren't trying and innovating and creating. So I always counseled staff. Make mistakes. It's okay.

Because you know what? When you make a mistake, we're all going to help you solve that just as when I make a mistake and I'm going to make plenty. I'm going to count on you to help me solve those problems I've caused. The only mistakes for which I had almost zero, maybe in fact zero tolerance, or a failure to communicate, a failure to cooperate, a failure to collaborate, and a failure to coordinate. Any other mistake, have at it. Go ahead.

Make a mistake. One of the, so part of your book, I found this interesting. I hope you can explain. a little bit for me. So I've read a lot about the fact that you talk about operating without regard to gender. And obviously this is a topic that comes up all the time I'm guessing when people talk to you from outside of it. Because it sounds like inside of it, people didn't really discuss this much. They just treat you like a leader, which is what you are, obviously. But this is a storyline where your gender obviously is it makes you unique in the field that you worked in. And you've said one of the ways to handle that is just don't really think about it. However, the title of your book is you negotiate like a girl, which kind of forces people to think of it from a gender-specific realm. What made you title the book, you negotiate like a girl? Well, let me just say that the title certainly suggests that, but the story I have a count goes on to say, I didn't care when I was told, I negotiated like a girl. I laughed. I told

him go ahead and negotiate it yourself. He didn't want to. And I moved on. I laughed. So yes, your point is well taken about the title when it's looked at out of context of the story. It's an excellent point you make. Mike Freeman, the gentleman who really gave me the courage and encouraged me every step of the way when I would repeatedly say to him, who the heck am I to write a book? And for love of ice cream, why the heck is anyone going to read this? He gave me the support and encouragement and courage to write the book. And I had another title in mind for the book, which goes to the point you just made. The title I had in mind was without regard. And my point was that I believe what worked for me, perhaps not for everyone, but I believe

in comporting myself without regard to gender. So I had this, you know, what I considered a genius title of without regard, which really didn't strike him as particularly brilliant, I suppose. As I wrote the story and recounted the tale of being told I negotiate like a girl, he said to me, you know, that's a heck of a title. And in my typical fashion, like, no, it's not. I don't like it. I don't like it. I don't like it.

I was just so steadfast on without regard. and the more I thought about Mike's advice, of course he is a sensational writer and has done this before, I have not. The more I thought about his advice, the more I realized he had a heck of a good idea. So all credit to Mike Freeman. What does it mean to negotiate like a girl? Well, it means nothing. Right. So what did it mean from the other person's point of view?

I don't know what it means either. Well, it meant nothing to him either. The person who said to me, you negotiate like a girl was Al Davis. and by the way, he's the person who hired the girl, and he's the person who promoted the girl, and he's the person who named the girl CEO. So I knew he didn't care, and I knew it was something that he simply said in a moment,

just as we all say things in a moment of extreme, extreme frustration. And it was a meaningless comment to him, and it was a meaningless comment to me, and what he said to me next really angered me, because that was substantive, and that created a little bit of consternation. But his comment about negotiating like a girl, that really goes to the heart of my point. I didn't care. I didn't waste one moment of my time or my energy.

I devoted no effort whatsoever to thinking about it. I did my job. After saying in a rather snotty tone that he could go negotiate it himself if he preferred, and he didn't prefer, he wanted the girl to negotiate it. If you had to, and I know this could take an hour, but if you had to break down your negotiation style, and let's say they asked you to be a guest lecturer, maybe at a law school or a college, to help teach people negotiation tactics and ways to get a good deal done, what are some of the keys to being a great negotiator? I had to learn a lot about myself in that regard as I grew up on the job because I didn't simply grow on the job. I grew up on the job. I started with the Raiders in my early to mid-20s and was there a long time.

So I grew up, I guess I was in my mid-20s when I started. I grew up on the job. and we all learn about ourselves as we grow on jobs, as we grow up on jobs. The difference, I suppose, for me was I was there almost 30 years. So every mistake I made stayed with me as opposed to, you know, leaving one job behind and moving on to the next. So one of the things I learned as I grew up and as I grew was how I wished to comport myself in negotiations. and it's an argument that Al and I had repeatedly throughout our negotiations with both parties.

I will come back to what we discussed at the outset of your podcast, to thine own self be true. In negotiating with anyone, if you don't find a manner and a method that is comfortable for you, you are not going to be your best. The other point that I will make that I think is just quintessential in this regard is not everything need be a negotiation, not everything need be a confrontation. Look, there's a saying in business, let's sit across the table from one another and negotiate. I bristle when I hear that because in my experience, the best deals were forged, the best agreements, the best agreement.

were forged, not when I was sitting across the table from someone, quote, negotiating, close quote, but when I was sitting alongside of someone collaborating, because in any deal, there will be points that matter to each party that do not matter at all to the other party. So you know what, if I'm negotiating a deal with you, if I'm working to structure a deal with you, why in the world should I argue about anything that matters to you that doesn't matter to me. I don't believe in posturing. I don't believe in pretending. I don't believe in creating faux leverage.

I believe in sitting alongside of someone and saying, let's share with one another what is important to each of us in this deal. Let's figure out how to effectuate that. And then as to the points where we cannot do that, let's find a way. way to compromise. Can you think of an example when there were certain parts of the deal that were more important to your side and then maybe potentially more important to the side that you are working to get the deal done with? I'm thinking of, I don't know if it's with a player or what it might be. I would love to hear if there's a story or an example. You know, I don't have a specific one off the top of my head, and that's a heck of a question you ask because I really should have an example.

but I will give you a generalization as opposed to pointing to one specific incident. You know, the economics of a deal are usually where, to use a silly expression, the rubber meets the road. Yep. But there are ways to structure deals to minimize differences as to economic terms. So let's say you and I are involved in trying to structure a transaction, and we resolve every single portion except for what I'm going to pay you. Well, you know what? At the end of the day, that may be something we cannot reach agreement to finalize our negotiation.

But why not look at creatively to see if we can? All right. You want more than I want to pay you. But you know what? Let me get past those numbers and think about cash flow. maybe I'd be willing to pay you more if you'd be willing to allow me to do it over time. Because maybe you want X, and I want to pay you something less than X. But if you give me the ability to pay you X over time, I will give you more than I otherwise would if you insisted on it now.

And you know what? Maybe you don't care about getting it all right this very minute. Well, voila, we just solved the problem. If you'll give me time, I'll increase what I'll pay you, and if you don't care about getting it immediately, you'll get more than you otherwise would. I think that's an example of both. Yeah, exactly.

I think of the CBA, and I don't know how involved you were with this, the one that got done, but when there was a lockout in the NFL, I was speaking with Andrew Brandt about this. He worked with the Green Bay Packers as an agent. I know, Andrew. Wow. Yeah, great guy, unbelievable great guy. And he was telling me how, like, for example,

if you're trying to look at it from the owner's side and the players side, the owners might not have cared at all about giving the players some more time off in the off season. And the players did care about that. So they relented easily on that, but then they were harder on other parts of that ultimately would, but came to be a somewhat contentious negotiation. It feels like looking back at it from DeMora Smith and Roger Goodell. It was a very contentious negotiation, certainly more so than any other CBA situation. situation in which

well actually I should say the very very beginning of my career there was a strike but between that time in the mid-80s and the CBA you're talking about that was when the relationship really did become very very contentious I noticed a change in the relationship

the moment D. Smith became the director and you know we can talk about that if you want and it does have it has to do with negotiating style and things of that nature yeah please do but I am I have tremendous respect for Andrew knew him during my career, interacted with him and agree with him absolutely positively on that point. That was something that was very important to the players. It was not important to the

owners. And the funny anecdote I have in that regard was one day running into a coach in the hallway of our building. And the coach said to me, somewhat angrily, everybody got something out of this deal except the coaches. And this was not our head coach. This was an assistant coach. And I looked at him and he said, you know, the owners have gotten more money. The players have gotten time off and more money, and all we've had is time stripped away from us to improve our teams. And I let him rant a bit because he needed to get it off his chest, and then I looked at him and reminded him of the very, very substantial raise he had just received.

And he said to me, what does that have to do with anything? I said, where do you think the revenues, the money to provide you that additional compensation came from, if not this new deal? And he looked at me and said, I got it. and he walked away. But that is, when I think about Andrew's comment about the decreased playing time, I do always, decreased practice time, I do always think of that coach. Yeah, yeah.

Amy, I know we are just about a time, and I really appreciate you being here. I want to encourage people to get your book. You negotiate like a girl reflections on a career in the National Football League. Are there any last words you want to say before we take off? Just to thank you for the opportunity to join you. It may not feel this way to you or our listeners because I have gone, or your listeners. Look at me now, calling them our listeners. It may not feel this way to those listening because I rambled and went on at such great length,

but that's really my way of complimenting and thanking you for an exquisite discussion from my perspective. Very, very thought-provoking questions. As I said, I'm a huge fan of the work you do, and I'm sorry that time is limited today, and that is absolutely positively entirely my fault. So thank you for having me. I appreciate you. I know you're in the middle of a lot of things going on between being on TV and you've got the book coming out right now.

Let's hopefully maybe when things slow down a little bit, we can do it again. I would love that. And know what? In the meantime, if you could somehow work on moving CBS sports to Los Angeles, then I will have a lot more time to join you and do such things. Okay, I'll get working on that. Thanks so much, Amy. I appreciate you being here.

Thanks for having. Bye. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to Learning Leadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on The Learning Leader Show.