The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 165: Chris Voss - Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It

Episode Date: October 5, 2016

Episode 165: Chris Voss - Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It Chris Voss is the Founder and CEO of the Black Swan Group Ltd and author of Never Split The Difference: Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It. He has used his many years of experience in international crisis and high-stakes negotiations to develop a unique program and team that applies these globally proven techniques to the business world. Prior to 2008, Chris was the lead international kidnapping negotiator for the Federal Bureau of Investigation, as well as the FBI's hostage negotiation representative for the National Security Council's Hostage Working Group. During his government career, he also represented the U.S. Government at two international conferences sponsored by the G-8 as an expert in kidnapping. He was the case agent on such cases as TERRSTOP (the Blind Sheikh Case – Sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman), the TWA Flight 800 catastrophe and negotiated the surrender of the first hostage taker to give up in the Chase Manhattan bank robbery hostage taking. During Chris's 24 year tenure in the Bureau, he was trained in the art of negotiation by not only the FBI but Scotland Yard and Harvard Law School. He is also a recipient of the Attorney General's Award for Excellence in Law Enforcement and the FBI Agents Association Award for Distinguished and Exemplary Service. Chris currently teaches business negotiation in the MBA program as an adjunct professor at University of Southern California's Marshall School of Business and at Georgetown University's McDonough School of Business.  He has taught business negotiation at Harvard University, guest lectured at The Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University, The IMD Business School in Lausanne, Switzerland and The Goethe School of Business in Frankfurt, Germany. Since 2009 Christopher has also worked with Insite Security as their Managing Director of the Kidnapping Resolution Practice. Episode 165: Chris Voss - Negotiating As If Your Life Depended On It Subscribe on iTunes  or Stitcher Radio The Learning Leader Show "Every single question you ask will trigger an emotional response on the other side." In This Episode, You Will Learn: "Active Listening" leads to being a great negotiator "In a 2 hour conversation, there will be solid gold" There is always a difference in the literal truth and the actual truth Why you cannot be scared to look stupid by not asking clarifying questions How spending 24 years in the FBI, and negotiating over 150 kidnappings have developed his incredible ability International kidnappings are bargaining... Commodities  "Leaders and Learners ask and they follow through" When closing a big business deal, terms and conditions are typically more important than the price: Try not to talk dollars until the very end.  Satisfaction and peace of mind is what closes most deals How to develop trust and peace of mind -- Predictability with trust "Be a mirror" -- How to quickly establish rapport: 1 to 3 words repeating with the other says Why Howard Stern is one of the best interviewers in the world... He gets people to share things they would never normally say How to negotiate better terms when discussing a job offer -- Thinking long term vs. short term -- Insist on being part of projects that help the long term success of the company. Create your value "What makes you ask?" What's the question behind the question? The Jeff Schilling kidnapping -- A $10m pricetage -- Using "That's right" to create a bonding moment and get Jeff back The D.C. Snipers - Chris shares his involvement with that negotiation How to spot liars... How to guarantee execution, what questions to use at what times Liars use more words (typically) than people telling the truth to justify their story (their lie) The 7-38-55 percent rule When should you use the other persons first name and when it's too much How to coach emotional intelligence skills "Leaders and Learners ask and they follow through" Continue Learning: Read Chris's Book: Never Split The Difference Follow Chris on Twitter: @VossNegotiation To Follow Me on Twitter: @RyanHawk12 You may also like these episodes: Episode 078: Kat Cole – From Hooters Waitress To President of Cinnabon Episode 071: Nate Boyer - Green Beret, Texas Football, The NFL Episode 073: Jay Bilas - World Class ESPN Basketball Broadcaster, Toughness, Fixing The NCAA Episode 107: Simon Sinek – Leadership: It Starts With Why Did you enjoy the podcast? If you enjoyed hearing Chris Voss on the show, please don't hesitate to send me a note on Twitter or email me. Episode edited by the great J Scott Donnell The Learning Leader Show is supported by Daor Design - Daor Design will help you build your brand like nobody's business. Most of their work falls into one of four categories: Logo Design, Print Design, Web Design or Digital Marketing. They pride themselves in being a trusted, valued resource for their growing family of clients.

And every single question that you ask is going to trigger an emotional response in the other side. Everyone. And if you don't know what that emotional response is, you need to be careful because now you're shooting in the dark. What and how are questions that trigger empowerment in the other side? It makes them feel good. It makes them, wants to educate somebody else. Everybody, it gives them a chance to show how smart they are. And people, again, they're, you know, this is caddnip.

They want, they, they can't help themselves when they're asked what and how. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. Hey, and welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. And thank you so much for being here. What a fascinating featured leader we have tonight. It's Chris Voss for 24 years. He worked with the FBI as the lead international kidnapping negotiator. Over the course of his career, he negotiated 150 plus kidnappings worldwide. It's incredible. Also, the best-selling author of a great book titled Never Split the Difference, Negotiating as If Your Life, You're Life. dependent on it. A few of the topics we got into. How to listen and hear the solid gold information in your conversations. How to spot when someone is lying to you. Then you'll

learn the two words that immediately transform any negotiation. Ladies and gentlemen, you're going to love this one with Chris Voss. All right, Chris Voss, excited to have you here honored to speak with you, author of Never Split the Difference, named by Inc.com as one of the seven best negotiation books of all time. So high praise here, a big time featured leader. Chris, welcome to the Learning Leader Show. Right. Thank you very much. Absolutely pleasure to be here. I'm curious. What are, would you say, you are one of the greatest negotiators currently on the planet? And I think that's backed up by your history, your experience, and your work. And you've obviously spent time around other negotiators. You've worked at Harvard, among other places, the FBI. You've spent

time around these people. If you had to pull out the common characteristics, the core themes of the people who are the absolute best at negotiation, what are the few key characteristics they all seem to share? You know, and I also like to add too, because I think of myself a lot more as a negotiation coach these days as opposed to a great negotiator, maybe in addition to, you know, I probably flatter myself to try to compare myself a little bit to Phil Jackson. Phil Jackson was a a darn good pro but an even better coach at helping other people get better. So if I could throw that in. Okay. So now the least sexy thing is one of the most important things in negotiation. And probably the least sexy, the boringest thing is to be able to listen. And but it's really

beyond listening actively because that's such a trite and worn out phrase. I mean, good negotiators are listening for great negotiators are listening for very specific things. Just like great athletes are looking for tendencies in people on the other side of the table. And it's not just enough to lead with your strength, but to figure out how your strength works best with the other person's tendencies. So a good negotiator learns how to listen for solid gold. One of my friends in L.A. that I have a tremendous amount of respect for is Ned Caletti, who was a former manager of the Dodgers, took him to general manager, took him from worst to first his first year as general manager. And he talks about his negotiations, and he'll say in a two-hour conversation, there's going to be 90 seconds of

solid gold. And he's just waiting for that solid gold to come through in a conversation. So one of those extremely important characteristics is kind of developing the year for the solid gold in the negotiation. What does solid gold mean? Well, you know what? And that's why I stopped him in the middle of his talk in a class I was given at USC because I said, whoa, whoa, hold it, hold it, hold it. And like a lot of great practitioners, he doesn't always know what the answer was

because he got this perplexed look on his face. And actually what it usually is is, first you're looking for change in a tone of voice. And you have to be listening for that. And you've got to learn, look for the change in adjectives. And then there's always going to be subtle wording. And if he's got an agent who's trying to make it think like he had, make him think like he has an offer that he doesn't have, he'll say if he's looking for $10 million over, or $20 million over three years, you know, he'll say I've got, I've got 20 and three or I can get 20 and three. And those two different things are there are very, very differently because I can get or I've got. And then even if he says I've got 20 and three, maybe he's got 21 place and three in another place.

So it's being able to take what you hear, listen for changes, and then understand there's always a difference in the literal truth and the actual truth. And you got you got to kind of hear for those differences. You've got to process. And then you have to be willing to not look stupid because people are so horrified at looking stupid that they're afraid to ask good questions because they're afraid that the question is going to make them seem stupid. And particularly in clarification,

one thing that I see a lot of people are scared to death to clarify. And so then what happens many times is there's either intentional or actual misunderstandings in a conversation. So it's not enough to listen. It's not enough to clarify. When you can combine those two things, then you start getting really, really sharp. I think that's a great point you just made about.

Oftentimes, I think I respect the leaders the most when I'm in a meeting and they ask what some may deem as simple clarifying questions, yet most people in the room wanted to ask the same question, but we're too scared to do it because they thought it might make them look stupid, but the most secure and typically the best leaders in the room, and usually the smartest are more than willing

to ask those clarifying questions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And while we're talking about it, I remembered one time I was in Iraq, in Baghdad in 2005, you know, when it was a different sort of hairiness than what's going on now. but I had a real top negotiator with me in the FBI, and we got out of a meeting, and I said, you know,

you didn't say a word in that meeting. I mean, what do I need you for? What have I got you along for if you're going to sit in a meeting and not say a word? And he said, well, you know, I've always known this phrase that, you know, people can wonder if you're stupid, and then if you speak up, you remove all doubt. And so he was, and that's exactly what we're saying. He was horrified that he would be made to look stupid by asking a question. And that's a really good point that, you know, great leaders stop worrying about that.

And if they don't understand, it doesn't matter. They don't care if they look stupid. They're going to go ahead and ask anyway. Exactly. So can you share a little bit about your background, Chris? I know, I mean, 24 years, I believe, in the FBI over 150 kidnappings worldwide that you have negotiated. It goes on and on. I'd love for you to share a little bit more about.

what you've accomplished up to this point. Yeah, I'd be happy to. And I consider myself really lucky because a lot of hostage negotiators will only have experience domestically in stuff like what we call a contained siege where you know where the bad guys are and you got them surrounded.

And everybody thinks in terms of a bank robbery with hostages. Although that's a rare event. That's a black swan in and of itself. And I happen to have negotiated it. a bank robbery with hostages. But they happen in the whole country about once every 20 years. Of course, they happen in nearly every other action movie. But and then there's also international kidnapping experience, which very few negotiators have.

And that's just straight bargaining. That's a commodities bargaining game. Those international kidnappers are hard-nosed, hard bargaining businessman. Doesn't matter who they are. You know, even our, even the, uh, the cowards and the losers that make up ISIS in the Middle East. When they get into bargaining, it's a commodities game for them. And they're either bargaining money or they're bargaining publicity. And so, you know, I was lucky enough to do both of those. And then I had the lead for the FBI for all the international kidnapping.

So for a period of time, any American that got grabbed anywhere in the world by terrorists or criminals, it was my job to come up with a strategy. one of the principal strategies to get them out. So then in the process of doing all that, I thought, well, why not go to Harvard? Because that's what you do when you're an international kidnapping negotiator. Now, you know, I wanted us to get better. I wanted the FBI to get better. So the people at Harvard are phenomenal.

Harvard program on negotiations. I mean, these guys are interested in soaking up knowledge from anybody and they're willing to collaborate with anybody to figure stuff out, which is really the attitude that we had at the FBI is, you know, I used to say we're not afraid of knowledge. We're willing, we're willing to learn from the best. And the Harvard guys were like that too. So then I add that in, to my knowledge, I'm the only FBI hostage negotiator to ever go through their training, which to me was a fairly simple thing because, you know, all I did was ask, which is another thing I think leaders do and learners do, you know, they ask and then they follow through. So I asked and I followed

through and I trained with those guys. And that kind of started when I was up at Harvard, that was when they said, hey, look, you got, you got to understand what you're doing in hostas negotiation is exactly what we're doing in business negotiation. It took me a while actually to accept that. I originally was skeptical. But I found out that they were right and that kind of is what spun me on into the business world. So negotiating for the release or bargaining in this, you said international kidnappings are bargaining as a commodities business with businessmen or cowards overseas. For the person listening that's driving in their car that perhaps is a, let's say they're a sales

professional and they're going to negotiate from a pricing perspective to sell their product to somebody and maybe they have a proposal out. and they're going to have a closing call, and they're listening right now. How would you relate or how does it relate to the business world when it comes to Chris Voss negotiating to get Americans back who have been kidnapped, perhaps, overseas to the guy who's going to sit on the sixth floor of a great building, negotiating with a professional to potentially close a deal? Yeah, well, you know, everybody's got to protect their dollars. And business professionals come to learn that in many cases, the most important aspects of the deal are not going to be the dollars. They're going to be delivery.

They're going to be terms. But the business world has really gotten to the point where no matter what the problems are, let's cut the price. And it's so common, everybody cuts the price. So even if you cut the price, you're still going to have to adjust terms because you're completely. competitors are cutting a price and at times are probably more important anyway. And I was talking to a company about potentially training their people the other day and they were saying like we agree on a price and then it takes us six months to work through the terms and conditions. Which means it didn't matter what the price was, it's not going to have any impact on a business for six months. So if we can cut down on the time that we spend on terms and conditions, we have a more immediate impact.

As a hostage negotiator, you know, the first moves are always, let's see how far we can get before we talk about anything substantive in terms of what some people might consider a fair exchange. And kidnapping, let's see how far we can get before anybody talks dollars. Or even if they're talking dollars, let's talk other stuff and see how far we can get. So I've always been from a negotiation standpoint, dollars are the last thing I'm ever going to talk about. And when you take that attitude, it's kind of amazing how far you can get. And so now in a business world, since I'm trying to protect my dollars, that'll be the last thing that I bring up or bring around. I'm going to try and cut my deal without changing my dollars. And it's kind of stunning how far you can get with that because in reality, companies want to go to a new vendor, not overpriced,

but over satisfaction or peace of mind. One of my students in my class at USC was telling me, went to great lengths to explain about how, well, pricing is public and you've got to back up what you say. And we, the pricing in my company, we actually charge a little more than other people do, but it's worth it because we're so reliable. And I said, then you're not winning on a price.

You're winning on peace of mind. selling peace of mind. And you're actually charging more for it because you have peace of mind. And I had to actually get him to say that three or four times in front of class before he would openly admit that the price was irrelevant. He was selling peace of mind. And so a hostage negotiator, that's all we ever sold was peace of mind. And I find that to be enormously powerful in terms of business deals or leadership. I mean, people want to follow somebody who gives them peace. of mind. Is that why I think some of the relationship builders at times can find a way to be, to sustain excellence, to be successful over an extended period of time because they,

they develop trust in a real true relationship. And I feel like from reading your book that there's parts of it that discuss this in depth that you worked to develop relationships and trust. And that could help deliver peace of mind. Yeah, you know, exactly. And a lot, trust is a tricky word. Trust gets people excited. If you substitute the word in predictability for trust, then it's, then suddenly things start to work a lot smoother. If somebody knows where you're coming from or if you act in a predictable fashion, then they can, they can trust what you're going to do. And, and predictability becomes an easier thing to digest. And but at the end of the day, it's, do you stay up? late at night and worry about whether or not something's going to happen. Well, as soon as your counterparts become predictable, then you don't worry about it. And we look for, in kidnapping negotiations, we look for predictability. And we look for listening to anybody.

Pretty soon you can figure out what they sound like when they mean it and what they sound like when they don't mean it. And as soon as we figured out what they sounded like when they meant it, they became predictable. and we could then make a deal. You talk about how ways to quickly establish rapport, and one of them is to be a mirror. Could you explain more about that? Yeah, you know, people, and it's a very unconscious thing,

be a mirror, the mirroring tool in hostage negotiation is different than business, and here's how it's different. The mirroring tool in hostage negotiation is simply repeating the last one to three words. And then when you become a real show-off, you'll go from the last one to three words to a selected one to three words in the middle of a conversation. And there's something, and we haven't figured out yet in brain science, why this works. I'm constantly on a lookout in brain science. And every now and then somebody does an MRI and sticks a wire in somebody's brain and they monitor the electrical activity, which sounds like mad scientist stuff.

to me. And it tends to back up what we've known in hostage negotiation for about four years. Now, the difference, the mirror that most people know in business negotiation is I'm going to mirror your word choice. I'm going to mirror your energy level. I'm going to mirror your body language. And that's not the same thing. That may have a tendency to come when you're in person, but the hostage negotiators mirror is just the one to three words. And it flips a switch in the other person's brain where they want to talk more. And they actually occasionally say stuff involuntarily. The first time I was really effective with it as a hostage negotiated, it was that bank robbery I was talking about before. And I got caught off guard. I mirrored

the bank robber a couple times. And he started just what we referred to is vomiting information. He started to explain. He gave us information and actually got another bank robber. Frank Robert convicted that we didn't even know had ever been there. So people say stuff. They expand. They're comfortable. They go on. And it's another story in my book, which is somewhat embarrassing because I was embarrassed

because one of my employees was mirroring me on purpose and I didn't know it. Like what does that sound like? Could you model it for me? Could I model it for you? Yeah, like actually do it? I just did. Okay. That was pretty quick.

Sorry about that, Ryan. I led you right into that one, I know. Did you know I was going to say that? I sometimes, I'll get a smart aleck in one of my business school classes, and the guy will start mirroring me in front of the class. And it's amazing how it just makes you go on. You know, I didn't put this example in my book, but I used to always use Howard Stern as an example.

And I think Howard Stern is one of the great communicators on the planet. Agre. He's an incredible interviewer. Yeah. You know what? And so many celebrities, their people will not let them go on Howard Stern's show because they know that if their guy gets on Stern, that Howard is going to get them to say stuff that nobody else can get them to say, which to me is a mark of a, like, he'd have been a great FBI agent. He'd have gotten so many confessions. And so anyway, so I see him as one of the world's great communicators, and I heard one of his listeners marrying him one day and got the upper hand on him. And he was doing this stick that he used to do when he was on radio in New York, where a guy calls in and then they just don't talk to the guy.

They wait to see how long the guy will just get fed up while they talk over him and see how long they can keep on on the phone, kind of toy with him. And this particular woman started marrying Howard and he couldn't stop talking to her. And he said, look, you've got to stop that. You're driving me crazy. She said, I'm driving you crazy? He says, yeah, you're repeating everything I say. She says, I repeat everything you say?

He says, yeah, you know, it's driving me crazy. Please stop it. She says, please stop it. And it went on and on and on. And he couldn't stop himself from responding to her. And I thought, geez, if this works on Howard Stern, it'll work anywhere. And it does. It's crazy.

What does it get you, though? It gets them to open up and share more information because they get tired of hearing what they've said repeated back to them? They don't get tired of it. I mean, it's almost like catnip to a cat. I don't know what it is. You can't hardly stop yourself from responding or a quick involuntary thing. It connects thoughts. It causes people to reward what they've just said and expand.

I've got one client that in all of his negotiations, he always mirrors the other side's position because the way they respond will tell them immediately how firm their position is or how soft it is. And he doesn't have to ask, he doesn't say, well, how firm are you on that or how soft are you on it? He mirrors it, and by the nature of how expansive they are in their response, it gives him more room to dig in and see if there are the spaces in it. or when I married you, you repeated back to me what you said in different words in a way for us to just simply continue to communicate. And had I not pointed it out, we'd have continued to talk and you'd never noticed it. That's a great point.

That's exactly right. I'm thinking of, first, I get a lot of emails from people who are graduating college or very early in their business career, which is I love getting those notes. And a lot of them are asking about how to negotiate for more money when they're getting a job offer. I think there are some people who listen to podcasts typically are pretty smart individuals who are looking to learn and get better. And so they might have multiple offers. And that puts them in a place of having maybe a little bit of leverage. But I'm curious for anyone listening as well, when somebody gets a job offer and they want to get more money, which obviously if you're going to get a job, you might as well get paid more, right?

How do you go about, or maybe you help people with this, I don't know, negotiating for a better offer? That's a great question. And here's the pivot to go from short-term greedy to long-term greedy. Okay. Because trying to get more money is short-term greedy. Agree. And you want to go long-term greedy. And so first of all, any negotiation looking at from the other side's perspective, asking for more money makes you self-centered.

selfish. It also makes you sound like every other person that walks in the door. So if you're now a clone and you're no different, why should we give you more money? Here's how you pivot to long-term greedy. Because in every negotiation, the other side's got, no matter what it is, the other side says what's in it for me. And a hostage negotiator, the way I open up every hostage negotiation, I would start out by saying, I'm here to get you out alive. So what that is is it's picking some sort of point in the future that's good for you that we both agree on. How I'm going to, how in what state you're going to be out alive remains to be negotiated. But I know a lot right away as to whether or not you want to live.

And there's a very good friend of mine who actually taught me this in the last couple years. and every job offer he's ever had, and he's now the head of an international bank in the United States, and he has no resume. They're purely on talent. The key issue with him and also everybody that works for him is he insists on being involved in projects that are critical to the strategic future of the company. So if instead of focusing on price or salary in a job negotiation, if you, immediately pivot to where you want to be part of the strategic future of the company, then the person you're talking to, a light bulb goes on over their head and looks at you

and says, this guy is going to make my future better, which then puts you in a position to ask for more because you're automatically more valuable. And it also puts you, in a long-term greedy, it puts you ahead of the pack two ways. It puts you in a position to ask for more money in a year, which is really what's more important. What am I lined up? The raises am I lining myself up for? And also, as soon as you start asking to be involved in critical projects for the strategic future of the company, you now get immediate visibility at the highest levels of the company.

The CEO will know who you are because you're working on projects near and dear to the CEO's heart. everybody in the C-suite is going to get visibility on you or at least know that you want that visibility and if that's what you want in your career if you want to move up the ladder faster than everybody else you need that visibility you need that informal mentoring you need people at the top of the food chain really wanting you to succeed because if you succeed they succeed and that's the way you change the whole dynamic wow I've never thought of it that way that's a really interesting part. I took extensive notes.

That's why I'm a little even slow to respond, but I appreciate that. Another aspect of it, I know you talked about this when speaking with the guys at Harvard and other negotiations is using a couple of things. Obviously, one is open, open-ended questions, and two is using the word how.

Can you explain more on open-ended questions and the power of the word how? Right. Yeah. And narrow all your opening the questions down. We say it's what, how, and sometimes why. And every single question that you ask is going to trigger an emotional response in the other side. Everyone.

And if you don't know what that emotional response is, you need to be careful because now you're shooting in the dark. What and how are questions that trigger empowerment in the other side? it makes it feel good it makes them everybody wants to educate somebody else everybody it gives them a chance to show how smart they are and people again they're you know this is cadmip they want they they can't help themselves when they're asked what and how and so they're going to talk and then depending upon how you have framed the question um you may have boxed them in and they don't know it because they feel empowered and they're having the opportunity to educate you. And either how or what, and one of the what questions that I love is, in response to nearly

anything, is what makes you ask? Because it's a cliche that the question behind the question is more important than the question. And if you don't know the question behind the question, there's at least a 50% chance that your answer is going to miss its mark. And what makes you ask in the most absurd example I could ever, I know of when this was phenomenal, was another student of mine. An MBA student, a woman is in a job negotiation. And the list of background that they wanted her to have, which of course is a result of committee,

and we all know that a giraffe is a horse designed by committee, which means that the list of questions is probably off. or the list of job characteristics. There's something flawed with that. And so they ask her about her work history, and she knows that she doesn't match what they're looking for. But she suspects that this is another giraffe when there should have been a horse. And instead of flat out answering about her background, she says, what makes you ask?

Which almost seems disrespectful. Yeah. But there's something about that that people want to. answer very much like how because it's an empowering kind of a question and it gives people a chance to show how smart they are and to educate you and their answer was they thought that those that list of employment indicated experiences in certain types and she had all those experiences and she had those attributes just not in those jobs so while technically she wasn't qualified by what was on paper in reality she had everything that they were looking for and she ended up getting the job

So you will often use a good what or how question to tease out more information out of someone that they might not otherwise give. And how am I supposed to do that is actually my favorite way. A flip side, that's my favorite way of saying no. That's the number one first way to say no. And of course, delivery is extremely important. It's like it's like rifling on a bullet. But if your delivery is off, then your words are going to miss their mark. You know, you can go, how am I supposed to do that?

Which indicates that I don't like you or your question. But when you say, how am I supposed to do that is when you're asking for help? And the most extreme examples, in the same week, a woman emailed me. She was, her 13-year-old wanted a video game that he wanted mom to pay 100% of. And she said, how am I supposed to do that? and he immediately responded with, okay, well, I'll pay half. And then I had another businessman dealing with a vendor, and the vendor gave him a price, and he said, how am I supposed to do that?

And the vendor immediately cut his price by half. Unreal. So I don't know if vendors are like 13-year-old kids or not, but it worked in two extreme examples. And that's a great example of a how question. Yeah, just reading about all the times we could use that phrase, am I supposed to do that or that question. It's incredible, this simplicity and the power in that phrase. I thought that was really interesting.

Another story I'd love for you to tell, because we've been talking about tactics and using them. Now I'd love to hear maybe a story or two. I was reading, this is in Chapter 5 your book, about the CIA agent who had been captured Jeffrey Schilling, I believe. Is that how you pronounce this name? Well, they thought he was an agent. He was actually just kind of a... a young man wandering the world. Right.

But they initially put a $10 million price tag on its head. You'll tell the story better than me. I'd love for you to share that if possible. Yeah, Jeff Schilling is running around a world. And at the time when he got grabbed, I thought, well, one of two things here, either this guy is working for somebody or he should be. Because, you know, he's just, he was all over the world. And he's down in the South of the Philippines.

and he runs into a problem with the local terrorist group, and they grab him, and they put a $10 million price tag on his head. And it gets out in a very public fashion that they're demanding $10 million for Jeff Schilling. And we go back and forth. I'm coaching the negotiation, and I'm coaching a Filipino police officer, phenomenal guy, an absolute patriot. And we can't get anywhere because they want $10 million for Jeff Schilling, and they want it because of 500 years of impression and all these made-up reasons.

And it wasn't ransom. It was war damages. And we get to the point where there's no amount of reason, logic on a planet whatsoever. What's Jeff Schilling got to do with what the Spanish did 500 years ago? I mean, what's he got to do with what the American government did down there a hundred years ago? None of that mattered. So we'd gone back and forth for some time and we finally just said, Let's just do this summary thing.

It's triggering a that's right from the other side, which breaks barriers. I mean, dissolves barriers. And I coached the guy. I coached my guy. I said, you know what, we're going to get a that's right out of this terrorist today. And our terrorist was a straight out of the movie's bad guys. He was a raping, murdering, egotomaniacal, bad to the bone, straight out of the movie's bad guy. And I said summarize him.

This guy's name was Sabaya. I said, you know, I kept thinking of the title of the movie, The World According to Garp. I said, you know, the world according to Sabaya. Summarize all of his nonsense and how he feels about it. And even in a way that make it sound like his feeling is justified, that's the real key issue to any good summary. It almost sounds like you're talking the other side into their position by talking about how they feel about it. And my guy, my guy Benji, did such a phenomenal job as coached to summarize

to Sabaya so that effectively you leave them only one response and the response is that's right. And I once had a friend say to me, you know, when you put somebody in position where the only thing they could say is that's right, you've actually just taken them hostage because they got nothing else to say. And when we got a that's right out of Sabaya, we went from $10 million to zero in one conversation. The whole money issue completely went away. I was actually stunned by that. I thought it would shrink it.

I didn't think it would make it disappear. So, wait, you summarized what he was to him, and he said he responded, that's right? I mean, how did that take $10 million to zero? Yeah, well, you know, what a good summary does is it shrinks, it takes all the nonsense out of the other side's position. It triggers an epiphany moment in their side, on their side. And actually, no matter who's on the other side, there's this weird sort of bonding that takes place.

And the guy on the other side this time was a sociopathic killer. I mean, Sabaya had no shortage of heads that he'd chopped off personally, soldiers that he'd killed, women that he'd raped and one of the things that my guy Benji hated about Sabaya so much he told me in a previous conversation that they'd been in battles where they were bombing

Sabaya's position and Sabaya had come on one of their radios and said these mortars are music to my ears and the only way that Sabia can come on one of their radios is if he's standing over a dead Filipino soldier and he's taking a radio at the time so this is a killer and still they

you know, they're sort of helpless on this weird bonding thing. So, and what Benji did was he said, he summarized the other sides. He said, you know, there's 500 years of oppression. It's, from your view, this is justified because of the economic damages, because of the violation of the fishing rights, the harm that had done to your people, on and on and on and on. And sort of like the recognition was, you know, Sabaya just really, he just, hesitated and he and he said that's right and they both sort of sat in silence for a few minutes and you can tell him suba's tone that his tone of voice had changed and he just said you know let's

talk again in a couple of days and he just let it go and it closed a conversation out and for the entire rest of the kidnapping sabaya never mentioned money ever again he never asked for it ever again it never came up and the crazy thing the craziest thing of all of this was um you remember Remember the Robert De Niro movie, analyze this with Robert De Niro and Billy Crystal. And Robert De Niro's point at Billy Crystal and he's saying, you, you got a gift, you. About a month after the Schilling kidnapping, I'm back in the Philippines, and I connect back up with Benji, and he says, you are not going to believe who called me on a phone. And I'm like, yeah, you know, I don't know. I haven't been here for a month.

Who called you? And he said, Sabaya called me on a phone. and I picked up the phone because they still had each other's cell phones and Benji had a cell phone in an undercover role so he's still answering it and Sabaya picks up the phone and he says hey have you been promoted

now he didn't know who for sure who Benji was he just knew he had to be either cop or with the military so somebody that could have been promoted and he says have you been promoted he says I have no idea what you said to me on the phone But whatever it was, you're really good and should promote you.

And he hangs up. And this also means that Sabaya is, even though he knew he was beaten, he still respected Benji. He respected him enough to call him and congratulate him. And that's a way you want to leave everybody that you deal with. Yeah. Were you also involved in negotiation with the D.C. sniper? worked a DC sniper case yeah that was what type of to go because I remember I've I'm I'm that was all over the news I remember at the time and I followed it closely and wasn't there moments where he wanted or they wanted the their something red on CNN or something like that like what could you could you share some of the details behind that case yeah and early on and I'll give credit to one of my colleagues at the time there's a guy that I worked with brilliant negotiators name is Vince Delphine And Vince saw before anybody else, what the snipers were doing was a form of communication.

You know, their violence seemed to be too methodical that it had to have a point. Ultimately, the snipers, among the things that they wanted, they actually asked for $10 million. And so Vince saw that comment, and then we all kind of got behind it. We started working it. And I was running the negotiation team the morning they called in. They had actually been calling law enforcement. And like it was so stupid that it was almost like a Three Stooges movie because they actually once called, I listened to the recording.

They called one police operator and they said, you know, we want to talk. And a police operator not realizing who she was talking to said, well, you got the wrong number. I'm going to have to. And they got mad and they hung up. Wow. But when we finally got in touch with them, in order to show that they were in charge and they said, look, we want you to announce in the media that we've caught the sniper like a duck in the noose. Yep, I remember that. Yeah.

And we had a tremendous back and forth. Chief Moose at the time, once we started giving him feedback on what to say he was phenomenal. He took it. He handled the press conferences. The most dangerous negotiation is the one you don't know. you're in and we started gaining the upper hand in communication by what we were coaching the chief to say in the press competence and and and and and the press not knowing that we were doing that of course at one point of time they braced chief moose and a reporter says you know chief moose you're you're actually acting respectful towards the snipers yeah you know and he couldn't say well i'm being coached by austin negotiators so and his ad lib was great you know and he i remember he looked down for just a second.

Then he looked back to the report and he said, my parents taught me to be respectful of everyone. And it went away. And so then we got to the point where they wanted us to say something in the media, but we couldn't clearly understand it. So the chief held a press conference said, you know, you told us, you wanted us to say, we caught the snipers like a duck in the news,

and we're doing what you told us to say. Which again, you know, that's, that's, almost what they call malicious compliance. It's following what they say to the letter and being honest and open about it, which gave us another advantage. And of course, we ended up, the snipers ended up getting caught. They were on a run. We identified them and they got caught at a rest area and they're both spending the rest of their lives behind bars. Yeah, I just remember that story would grip the country. It was, I mean, it was really scary. I remember. for quite some time, at least for the moments when it was still going on.

Another part you talk about, and there's something that's brought up a lot on the show, which is the execution, right? Like, it's great to understand ideas, thoughts to learn, but it's another aspect to actually implement and execute on what we've learned. And you, in Chapter 8 talks about guaranteeing execution and subtitle how to spot the liars and ensure follow through from everyone else. And I think there's, the topic of lying and spotting liars is a fascinating one to most people. They want to know when somebody is lying to them, why they're lying to them, how to spot that so they could better deal with it.

What are some of the keys that you found to spot the liars and ensure follow through from everyone else. Well, and that takes us in a perfect loop because it gets us back to these how questions because, you know, there's two people on the other side that the consequences of what they're doing to you have the same effect. The consequences of a liar is there's going to be no follow-through. That's the one person. The other person, the consequences of someone who hasn't thought about follow-through, you get the same problem. And maybe they don't mean to be lying, but they're just not thinking things through. And you catch both with the same approach, which is, all right, so how's this going to work?

What's this going to look like? You know, how do we know we're on track and how are we going to address it if we're not? The liar will go dead, silent on you because he's never thought about it. And they'll be stumped. And I was overseas one time and we're dealing with a. guy who's helping us facilitate training. And we suspect, I never know for sure, and it was a combination of both. He didn't think a lot of stuff through, and he lied a lot of the times.

So we're actually trying to do something as simple in Abu Dhabi as get to a graduation ceremony. And at the time in Abu Dhabi, when we were there, they're like, there are no street signs. And if you're not from there, you can't find anything. And we're at the hotel, and we need this guy to take us to the graduation. And I'm like, and I said to him, you know, how am I going to get there? We don't know Abu Dhabi. How are we going to get there if you don't take us? And so off the top he said, he says, well, I'll get you a map.

And I almost bit at that point at time. That sounded reasonable. And I thought he was just making up an excuse. And so I thought for a second then I said, how are you going to get me a map? and he went dead silent. He had no answer. I don't know if he was lying, which he might well have been, because I think he was motivated for us not to be at that particular graduation ceremony

because my company made his company look bad, or whether he just hadn't thought it through. And he was a kind of guy that didn't think a lot of things through. Either person is a problem for you. Either person is solved with how questions. And that kind of gets us back to the point of, don't be afraid to look stupid and don't be afraid to clarify. And if you're not, you know, you ask these how questions and both people are caught out.

The liar is caught out because it doesn't know, it's not enough to know if somebody's lying. If they're lying now, what do I do? How do I fix this? It's only half the problem. So figure out, and at that point with a howe question, you find out whether or not it's fixable. Maybe they put you in a position where you can solve the lie or whether just between the two of you, you now both know that the person across the table from you has no intention of following through. It doesn't help you to scream at them.

It just helps you to get out of the conversation. Yeah. I noticed that Harvard Business School study that liars use more words than truth tellers, and they also use more third-person pronouns. Yeah. Well, the Pinocchio effect. the heart the more words somebody uses to convince you he knows he or she knows they're lying and since they know it they got to work harder to convince you and know well why would I ever do

this you know go on and on and on you should be getting a bad feeling in your stomach when someone is really knocking themselves out the the flip side of it is is someone who's telling you the truth will work since they know they're telling you the truth they won't work as hard and we often misread those people because they become terse or even become angry when they're not believed. And then we get mad at them and the relationship can break down then also. What's the 738 55% rule? 73855 is a rough ratio of the words, the delivery, and the body language. And seven is the words, 38 is the delivery, and delivery in 55.

is the body language, the percentage impact on the meaning when we communicate. And some people say, well, how can words only be 7%? Well, I can say to you, I really admire your intellect. Or I can say to you, I really admire your intellect. And I've just used the exact same words and completely change the meaning. One is honest, the other is disdainful. And so it's giving those of us who communicate with authenticity, it helps us understand that still the way we communicate is extremely important. Otherwise, our words don't hit the mark.

So we've got to have a tone of voice that people like to listen to. And as soon as they don't like our tone of voice, they're not going to hear our words. and if you're in person, the most important body language as a listener that makes people want to talk to you even more, as silly as it sounds, is nodding the head. People love to see a head nod when they're talking to somebody.

It makes them happy as clams. Definitely. And so you put those two things together, and we talked before about the solid gold, when the words and the delivery in a body language don't line up, that's solid gold for good listener, good deliverer, a good watcher, because he knows there's a problem. What about this has been spoken about, I think, in many professions, but when you're

having a conversation of using the other person's first name, I think there's stats out there that show that the most beautiful sound in the world is your own first name. I don't know if that's true or not, but I know it's been said many times. but then there's also a chance, as you talk about, that you can overdo it. Talk about using both your own name and the other person's name. Yeah, great, you know, because you make an interesting point that is a double-edged sword, how important our first name is to us. And it's also precious to us.

And we might not want to give it or we might not want to have it used until we want to reach that relationship. I remember I get stopped one time. I had a boat in Washington, D.C., and I got stopped by D.C. Harbor Patrol. And I'm still with the FBI at the time, and I'm obliged to let these guys know I'm law enforcement because I have a gun. And they have to know two things about that. They have to know that I have a gun. They have to know they're in no danger. So I show my ID right away, which also, interestingly enough, is probably going to keep me from getting any sort of a citation.

I feel horrible about my identification, get me out of all those tickets, but it just is. So I show the guy my ID, and I can see that he's annoyed by that. So I'm trying to establish a little rapport with him. I want to know his first name. So I see his name tag say this Williams. I say, you know, I say, you know, what's your name? And he says, I'm Officer Williams. And I say, what's your first name?

and he says and he hesitates and he goes, officer, because his first name is precious to him. He doesn't want to give it to me. The flip side is, I can always give my first name under all circumstances and it triggers this thing called forced empathy. And so while I'm Johnny, unknown FBI agent across from this guy, he's annoyed with me and thinking seriously about whether or not he's going to cite me because I'm just a another schmuck who he doesn't really know. But as soon as he knows my name, that changes the dynamic. And as soon as I'm Chris, and I use this on a regular basis because you can keep your

name from me, but you can't stop me from giving you mine. And as soon as I become a person with you, that then leads us to the point where we can have a better connection. And I think it's sometimes times by salespeople, it's overused, where somebody's trying to get my cooperation, they're going to say, hey, Chris, how you doing today, Chris? Would you listen to me, Chris? You know, Chris, I've got a great deal for you. They're going to hammer me with my name. But the flip side of you and I are talking, and you go, hey, I'm Ryan. And here's Ryan's perspective. Then immediately, no matter what, you're now unique on the entire planet and you've caused me to look at you as a unique individual. And we use that the complete opposite way in our communications.

Even to the point where we call the Chris Price, I can get a Chris discount in Macy's that's more than what you can get if you haven't given them your name. What do you mean? When you go into Macy's, you just tell them your name and it helps get a discount? Tell them towards the end of the conversation. And we'll be talking and I'll make sure that they're having a pleasant interaction with me. And it's any place, like any place you walk into has got at least a 10% latitude, even discount stores. And I'm in a discount mall for discount shirts and they want me to buy, join their preferred customer program.

and I ask him if that gets me any discounts and they say no and I say well what about the Chris discount can how is there a Chris discount today and I had them literally look at me and say yeah 10 percent so it's got to come towards the end it's got to come towards the end of an interaction you have to be pleasant and what it does it's it's like the last it's the tipping point for the opposite of the phrase never be mean to someone who can hurt you by doing nothing well everybody could hurt you by doing nothing and if you accept that that's true then there's probably something they can do to help you if they feel like it and so if you're pleasant in your interaction and you still haven't been able to get anywhere there the last thing that

I've taught a lot of people to say is well you know I'm Chris I'm Ryan I'm Brock you know what's the Ryan price today? If you say that, you know, if you're joking around, if you make sure you smile, if you've gotten a laugh before then, they'll cut the, they'll, if they can't give you an additional discount, they'll go find somebody who can. Have you, off the wall question, have you seen the TV show called The Prophet with Marcus Limonis on CNBC? I'm familiar with that show, yeah.

The only reason I bring this up is because every single time Marcus walks in, and he, It's an incredible show. I encourage everyone to watch it. He is a, someone I'm looking, trying hard to get on this podcast because he's just so great at what he does. But when Marcus walks in, and basically the show is he walks in, and he's judging whether he should invest in a business and help them if they have a problem. And they always have some sort of problem.

But the reason I bring it up is because every time he walks in a room, he looks the person in the eye and reaches out his hand. He says, hi, I'm Marcus every single time, 100% no matter what. And sometimes he'll do it many times throughout an episode because he meets a lot of people. And it has this disarming, I don't know, it makes him seem so likable just when you see him reach out his hand, look him dead in the eye with a smile on his face. And he says, hi, I'm Marcus. And I never really thought of it until just now when you're sharing, using your own first name versus the other persons of how you mentioned that. No matter if they want to tell me theirs or not, I know at least I can tell the other person my first name.

Yeah, incredible. I'm not surprised. That's great human nature, high emotional intelligence instinct. Yeah, that's impressive. And it works perfectly. It creates a smile. It creates, because he's kind of famous now. He's had this show and people know him, so they're probably in awe a little bit, but he treats him just like everybody else. And he shares his first name and assumes nobody knows who he is. And I find just kind of endearing to watch. And it's fascinating. But Chris, I have to, I just want to think. thank you for investing your time with me because I've learned so much. There's a ton of notes. I'm going to re-listen to this as well and probably read through the transcripts to understand it. But I'm so appreciative of the fact that you've invested your time with me here on the Learning Leader show.

Is there anything that I didn't ask you that you wanted me to ask? No, only, you know, if we can direct people to my website. Yeah. You know, Black Swan, L-T-D.com, B-L-A-C-S-W-A-N-L-T-D.com. you can find out about the book. You know, we've got a bunch of stuff out there that we deliver for free. We've got a complimentary twice a month negotiation advisory letter that's short, sweet, gives you great tools, and that's free. And we put a lot of free stuff out there.

So I'd encourage people to try to take advantage of the stuff that we give away complimentary as well. What does the Black Swan Group do? We coach people using these hostage negotiation, like, high emotional intelligence skills for business and personal negotiation so that you get more. Who are some of the typical people you'd help? Is it businesses, leaders, individuals? What is it like? Well, you know, anybody that wants to negotiate better deals and have better relationships,

interestingly, long-term greedy. And the entire range. I mean, I've coached people through billion-dollar Wall Street transactions. I've coached people through mergers and acquisitions. I've coached people in leadership issues. I've coached husbands and wives. There's a top Silicon Valley female executive that is interested in the training because her fiancé got the book and she finally likes talking to him now. Wow.

Interesting. She said he's no longer trying to solve every one of my problems. We're actually having great conversations. So you give a spousal relationship advice too? You know, occasionally, a good communication makes for better relationships, even with your spouse. Is there one quick tip before we go for anyone who's married or about to be that you would say that could lead to a successful marriage? You know, actually take the time to actually listen to where the other side's coming from. Much, I'm guessing much easier said than done for most people, isn't it?

Well, you know, because it takes a little bit of patience. And the closer you are to somebody, the more frequently they've been punching your buttons. And your patience has usually been worn thin. And that's the problem. Well, I have to say your book, thanks again, Chris, your book never split the difference. Named by Inc. is one of the seven best negotiation books of all times. Not only is it, because it gave you implementable, practical, actionable,

actionable tips and advice, but it's really, entertaining too and that's hard to get both of those and I think you you certainly cover that it's called Never Split the Difference I encourage people to read it and Chris thanks again for being here I absolutely want to continue this dialogue as we both progressed on our journeys man yeah I enjoy that thanks Ryan all right thanks Chris this episode of the Learning Leader Show is over but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time head over to learning leader show.com for more information and to request your favorite

entrepreneur CEO world-class athlete or anyone else that that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on the Learning Leader Show.