The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 167: Robert Cialdini - The Godfather of Influence

Episode Date: October 12, 2016

Episode 167: Robert Cialdini - The Godfather of Influence Harvard Business Review lists Dr. Cialdini's research in "Breakthrough Ideas for Today's Business Agenda." Influence has been listed on the "New York Times Business Best Seller List." Fortune Magazine lists Influence in their "75 Smartest Business Books."CEO Read lists Influence in their "100 Best Business Books of All Time." Dr. Robert Cialdini has spent his entire career researching the science of influence earning him an international reputation as an expert in the fields of persuasion, compliance, and negotiation. His books including, Influence: Science & Practice, are the result of decades of peer-reviewed research on why people comply with requests.Influence has sold over 3 million copies, is a New York Times Bestseller and has been published in over 30 languages. His new book, Pre-Suasion:  A Revolutionary Way to Influence and Persuade, published by Simon & Schuster, quickly became a Wall Street Journal and a New York Times Bestseller. Because of the world-wide recognition of Dr. Cialdini's cutting edge scientific research and his ethical business and policy applications, he is frequently regarded as the "Godfather of influence." Episode 167: Robert Cialdini - The Godfather of Influence Subscribe on iTunes  or Stitcher Radio The Learning Leader Show "Give people a reputation to live up to." In This Episode, You Will Learn: Empathy is one of the most important characteristics of a great leader (Warren Buffett & Charlie Munger) A 20 year gap in books written... Why? Dr. Cialdini wanted to have sufficient research for Pre-Suasion How the process of "Pre-Suading" happens -- A story shared Story of a business partner who screwed up -- How he primed him by saying "I hate when this happens to nice guys like you" When you receive a job offer, ask for advice from your mentors -- Their response might surprise you When you ask for advice, you develop a partnership  and you collaborate.  That person becomes part of your and your success The proper way to start every interview (when you are being interviewed): "I would like for you to answer a couple questions for me before we start... Why did you want me here? Why am I great for this role?"  This will prime the interviewer to share positives about you. They will work to prove themselves right (about what they said of you) throughout the rest of the interview. The art of priming  -- People want to prove themselves right How to get a raise or a promotion? When people are uncertain or fear they will lose you (assuming you provide value), they likely fear losses more than achieving gains.  It benefits the organization to hold on to (and it's cheaper) great talent. Reciprocity - Why should a man give flowers at the beginning of a date? Unity - Donald Trump claims to be an outsider -- "We're in this together as outsiders. We are the same group." It resonates with people and creates unity. The Beijing Restaurant experiment The profession of selling -- The new way of thinking: How to create trust = Start with a weakness of your product. Warren Buffett does this better than anyone Great leaders need to be effective inside an organization Learnt the power of asking for advice "We are in this together. We are of the same group." Continue Learning: Read Dr. Cialdini's classic book: Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion  Read Dr. Cialdini's newest book: Pre-Suasion Follow Bob on Twitter: @RobertCialdini To Follow Me on Twitter: @RyanHawk12 You may also like these episodes: Episode 078: Kat Cole – From Hooters Waitress To President of Cinnabon Episode 071: Nate Boyer - Green Beret, Texas Football, The NFL Episode 073: Jay Bilas - World Class ESPN Basketball Broadcaster, Toughness, Fixing The NCAA Episode 107: Simon Sinek – Leadership: It Starts With Why Did you enjoy the podcast? If you enjoyed hearing Dr. Robert Cialdini on the show, please don't hesitate to send me a note on Twitter or email me. Episode edited by the great J Scott Donnell The Learning Leader Show is supported by Daor Design - Daor Design will help you build your brand like nobody's business. Most of their work falls into one of four categories: Logo Design, Print Design, Web Design or Digital Marketing. They pride themselves in being a trusted, valued resource for their growing family of clients.

That's really an important insight. This persuasive set of practices, these practices fly under the radar. We don't recognize that we've been influenced until maybe afterwards when we reflect on them. I was swept along by this strategy. And just as you say, I write books on this stuff and I was still subject to it. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk.

Hey, and welcome to The Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. When I first started this podcast, Dr. Robert Chilini was one of my initial cold emails. I'd send you. him many over the last year and a half. And here we are. We finally made it happen and I promise it did not disappoint. He has spent its entire career researching the science of influence, earning him an international reputation as an expert in the field of persuasion, compliance, and negotiation. His first book was titled, Influence, the Psychology of Persuasion, sold over three million copies worldwide. CEO Reid listed as one of the 100 best business books of all time. His newest book is titled Presuasion, a Revolutionary Way to Influence and Persuade. He is an incredible writer. I could not recommend his books enough. A few of the topics we got into.

What you should say immediately at the beginning of a job interview to help you secure an offer by the end of it. Then how to negotiate a raise and or a promotion? Followed up by why the best sales professionals lead their presentations with something negative about their price. product, Bob will explain. Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, it's Dr. Robert Childini. Dr. Robert Childini, man, I'm so excited to have you. Your work has impacted my life in possibly more ways than anybody in quite some time. So this is a real honor for me to have you here on the Learning Leader Show.

Welcome to the podcast. Well, thank you, Ryan. I'm glad to be with you and your followers. So I have a question about, so through the course of your career, you've obviously done a lot of research. You've spent time around an immense number of people who have sustained excellence, not just flashing a panda, but people who make it happen for quite some time. I'm curious, from your perspective, Bob, what are some of the common themes or characteristics the leaders and the people who sustain excellence all seem to share? You know, I think one of them is empathy, the ability to recognize what the other person across the table is feeling. at that moment and to chart it and to recognize how those feelings and reactions might be shifting

throughout the exchange and then operating in a way that takes into account an accurate view of what's going on in the person across from us. That's a really interesting answer to it. When you think of sustained excellence, is there a person or two that immediately, comes to mind that potentially has impacted your life? Well, yes, I would say a couple of people, Warren Buffett and his partner, Charlie Munger, who run Berkshire Hathaway and have produced astounding levels of sustained success in managing that firm.

Yep, I think that's a fair answer. So Bob, I have to tell you, so I'm going to take you back to 2006. I was playing arena football in Birmingham, Alabama, okay? Really? Yeah. And so here's the interesting part, I think, the story. So every day I'd get up, I'd work out, watch film, we'd have practice. And so that would take, you know, roughly between 8 o'clock in the morning or 7 o'clock in the morning,

and I get done in the early afternoon. And so at that point, I had to, you know, figure out what's the best, best way, to spend my time. And I had one book with me. I was one year out of college. I had one book. And that book was influenced the psychology of persuasion by you. And so I read that, I could have gone to a bookstore, but I read that book over and over and

over. I did it every day. I went outside in the 100 degree heat because I wanted to get some sun because arena football you play inside. I lived in a hotel. And I went outside and read your book that entire season. It was about six months. And so I had to tell you that that's why it's.

had as much of an impact on me as any book that I've ever read. Well, that's so gratifying to hear, Ryan. I hope that it was useful and valuable afterwards. Well, certainly. It's had a, like I said, a massive impact of my life. And I'd love to get into it and also talk about your new book that's just out called Presuasion, a revolutionary way to influence and persuade. And the first question in regards to both those books is most, most

authors, once they have a bestseller, I know influence took some time. Initially, it did not sell well, which is shocking, but I guess it was the times. But once it did, usually those authors would then start pumping out the books, just one after another. And you, there's a huge gap in time from your first book to now pre-suasion. Why would you say there was such a big gap? Well, the truth is, I never had an idea big enough to compete with influence. I didn't want to plant a set of bushes around the tree that influence has become. I wanted to wait until I had a seed for another tree, which finally arrived as the idea for pre-suation. Was there a specific moment where it hit you or maybe, I know usually it's not just your eureka and there's a lightball,

but were there a few moments where you said, you know what, I finally got the idea? I think I know what I want to do for my next book, and what was going on at that time? It wasn't a single instance. It was an accumulation of research that I was reading in the behavioral science literature that these studies were suggesting a way to influence people that was different from the traditional model that I had been accustomed to. which says if you want to change somebody, if you want to change their behavior, you have to change something abiding inside them. You have to change their attitude or you have to change their belief or you have to change their experience with regard to the topic that you're talking about. But this new research that I'll call channeled attention research suggested you didn't have to change anything inside them except what was at the top of their consciousness in the moment before you delivered your request or recommendation or proposal.

If what was top of mind for them was salient in consciousness fit with the message that you were going to send next, you got enormous traction, you got leverage for that message in that message. that way. Can you share an example? I'm thinking of the of the one where you were going to, and if you want to share this story or a different one, it's yours. So I'll just tee it up and then you can take it from there, but or share a different one of this so that people can can, I think we learn through stories. That's why you're a great writer and it's so helpful. But of when, when the dean of college you were going to started, he said that one of the professors had, initially he said he talked about the office you were going to get and how beautiful it was

and just basically said they're going to set you up to have the most comfortable situation to write your next book. Everything about it was going to be great and then immediately following he he asked you to teach. Could you share that story? Yeah, so I was writing this book, pre-suation on a leave of absence at another university actually at a business school and I was negotiating with the associate dean about my office and the computer and library privileges and phone privileges and all these kinds of things. And he called me one day and he said, Bob, I've got great news for you. We got you that office you wanted. That computer in there is more powerful than you requested. Don't worry about calls or library or parking privileges. We'll take care of

all of that for you. And I said, well, thank you. I really appreciate that. And Ryan, he paused for a second and said, well, there's something I would appreciate from you, Bob. We have a sudden need for somebody to teach a marketing class to our MBAs. And it would really be helpful to me if you could do that. Well, I had never taught a marketing class. I was in a psychology department. I had never taught in a business school. I had never taught MBAs.

developing an entire new course with exams and lectures and exercises and so on. I knew that if I said yes, it was going to torpedo my plans to write this book while I was there. But in the moment after he had given me all these things and I had said how grateful I was, there was no way for me to say, no, I'm not going to do that for you. And so I agreed. I can only be glad he didn't need a kidney. But you said that if it wouldn't have been immediately in the moment, maybe you had a day or two to think before he asked,

your answer could have potentially been different? Exactly right. In that moment, in that moment after he had done all these things for me, there was a mindset that he had established in me that created a willingness to do whatever he asked next because of what he had done for me. I just had another one of these moments. I had a call from a business partner who screwed up something. He messed up and he cost us a lot of money as a result. And he called and he said, Bob, I've got some news that I'm sorry to have.

have to tell you. And I'm especially sorry to have to tell you it because I hate when this happens to nice guys like you. And then he described how he screwed up and how much money it was going to cost us. But he had given me the role of nice guy first. And I heard myself say, ah, don't worry. You know, it happens to everybody, sometimes I screw up as well. Instead of digging in and saying, well, what are you going to do about this? How am I going to be compensated? I waved him away because of what he said immediately before he delivered the news that created a mindset of me in which I thought of myself as a nice guy. So he gave you a reputation to live up to. Precisely.

And do you think he was doing that fully knowing or he just happened to say it? I don't know for sure, but I do know that if we understand how that works, as communicators, we will become decidedly more effective by arranging for people to be in a frame of mind before we deliver the information we want them to operate on, a frame of mind that is congruent with the goals of that information. It's interesting that this took place, and it's happening with the guy who wrote the book that sold millions upon millions of copies,

and books don't sell even a million copies for people who maybe don't fully grasp book sales. Nobody sells a million copies. I mean, it's one. like one millionth of one percent, right? Of the people who sell near sold millions upon millions. And this guy is, whether he knows it or not, is using a tactic right on you and it worked. That's really an important insight.

This persuasive set of practices, these practices fly under the radar. We don't recognize that we've been influenced until maybe. Afterwards, when we reflect on them, I was swept along by this strategy. And just as you say, I write books on this stuff, and I was still subject to it. Yeah, I just, I think that's an interesting story. I appreciate you sharing. So let's, I want to talk a little bit about influence because I think the, the six principles from there obviously relate to pre-suation, your current book.

Just to list them off for people who potentially haven't. read them, and we'll dig into a few of them. So it's reciprocity, commitment, and consistency, social proof, authority, liking, and scarcity. So I have a question for you because this kind of dawned in me years ago, Bob, and I thought of you and your book when this started happening because I kind of backed into it. So I, years ago, got a job offer, and it was a promotion-type role, but it was to leave the current company that I was at. And I didn't necessarily know what to do. So I reached out to mentors of mine who have come before me and have risen the ranks and are in leadership roles in varying different companies. And so I basically said, hey, could I just

talk to you? I have some things to work through and I think you could help me. And, you know, most good mentors, they always say yes. And so they said yes. And it was about four or five people. And I said, hey, I have a job offer and here's some of the reasons why they told me that they want me to do the job. What do you think I should do? And I got fantastic advice from all of them, but that's not really the moral of this story. The interesting part to me that I learned was I quickly became more attractive to those mentors now. And then they wanted to talk to me about potential jobs working for them. And I felt like this was almost an influence tactic or principle that I used on them without

even knowing it because I asked for their advice and told them that other people wanted me. That's what the research validates. That is, there's a study that shows that if you ask somebody whose support you want or whose feedback you want on a plan or an idea, something that you have developing, perhaps in a new initiative, if you ask for their opinion about it, that's a mistake. Because when you ask for someone's opinion, that person takes a half step back from you psychologically.

He or she looks inside themselves. for the answer and separates from you. If instead you do what you did and ask for advice, that person takes a half step toward you psychologically and develops a partnership state of mind, a collaborative, cooperative mindset. And what that research shows is that that person then becomes more supportive of your plan even before encountering it

because they feel more a part of it from the outset. So they felt in this case those mentors, those informants that you asked, felt more unified with you and your identity and your purpose. And of course, therefore, they would want you to be more part of their organization. because of the connections that they saw. And I'll give you one more example of how this can work in. Now, once you got into the influence situation, the interview,

here's what I'm recommending that people do. Typically, you go into that situation, you say to the evaluator there, thank you for inviting me. I'm looking forward to answering all your questions. here's what I'm going to recommend we say in addition. But, you know, I wonder if you could answer a question for me first. Why did you invite me to interview today? Yeah.

What was it about my qualifications that attracted you to my candidacy? And Ryan, what those people will start doing in that mindset of you've got them searching now for the reason that you belong there. And in that mindset, they are more likely to see you in a positive way because you've brought them into that state of mind. I have an acquaintance who says

he's gotten three straight better jobs in a row using that strategy. It's brilliant, man. And it also gives you a good feeling for why they brought you in. So it has two purposes. One, it primes. just to let you know, so Bob, when I first saw the word pre-suasion, I like to ask people what they think when they first see certain words.

Typically, I ask about learning leader. But when I first saw pre-suation, the first word that came to my mind was priming, meaning priming somebody's brain to do something. And I think there's many examples out there of priming in order to potentially eventually persuade. And this is not in an evil or negative way. It's just the way that our brains work. Exactly. The metaphor I like to use is primer paint that you put on a wall before you put the coat of paint that you want to stick. Right.

But you make the wall receptive to that thing that you want to stick by priming it first. You ready them. The idea, excuse me, you ready. your audience for your idea by what you say or do before you send that idea. Yeah. So if you're in the interview and you immediately start the conversation with them telling you great attributes of you, the interviewee, then they're going to work to prove themselves right.

Exactly. In fact, this acquaintance of mindset at one of these interviews, it was a little committee of people who were interviewing him for the job. And he said, one of them said, well, the reason I think we wanted you here is because of your background and experience that fits with the qualifications of the job. And another guy said, no, actually, the reason is because your values fit so well with the values of our company. And they started arguing with one another about why they should, which was the strongest reason they should hire him. And of course, at the end of the day, they did hire him because they were pitching these ideas to one another

all in his favor. How does this relate to salary negotiations? This is a topic that comes up in some emails I received from time to time. How would you go about if somebody's like, you know, I'm going to get a raise or maybe they're getting an offer. and they want more money or something, whatever they want, but that's money is the easiest one to talk about. So how would you apply this? Yeah. So let's say you have a need to convince your superior that you deserve more money or let's

say a promotion, right? If you have to convince them, there's uncertainty in their minds about whether this is the best thing to do at this point or you're the best person to be promoted and so on. All right. Well, there's research that's very clear on this point. When people are uncertain, they're more motivated to avoid losses than to obtain gains. In fact, this idea won the Nobel Prize in Economics for Daniel Kahneman a few years ago. Therefore, I recommend that when asking for a promotion or, let's say a promotion, because it comes with a raise, right?

we begin our case not by describing the benefits to the organization that would be gained by moving us into a position of greater responsibility, but rather the benefits of the organization that would be missed or foregone if this didn't occur. When people are uncertain, they are most interested in avoiding losses. Now, the same rule applies to persuading people outside of our organization of the value of what we have to offer. The Bose Acoustics Corporations campaign for their new Bose wave music system a few years ago was initially unsuccessful because customers were uncertain about this new product. But when Bose added five words to the top of their ads, sales jumped significantly. The five words were, hear what you've been. missing. Like FOMO, huh?

FOMO. FOMO. 60% increase in sales. Wow. Five words. At the beginning, at the top of the ad. Wow, that's incredible. Do you work with companies like Bose or somebody to help them with marketing materials

or things like a five words? I do. Oh, you do? Okay. What's, I don't know if that's confidential, some of the, of what you've done. Are there certain, I don't know, examples or times that you could, that are interesting stories? Yes, but I like talking about the Bose example because they told me it was not proprietary.

Gotcha. The other ones are proprietary. I got you. When thinking about reciprocity, this is the first principle from influence. Why is it helpful for a man to send a woman flowers prior to a date? This is a great example of how what you do first or what's in a person's mind directs their behavior. There was a study done in France. Researchers went to a shopping mall and they had a young man, an attractive young man,

walk up to young women who were walking alone and passing various kinds of shops, a clothing store, a bakery, a shoe store, and so on. And stop those women and ask for their phone number so he could call them later for a date. Now, that's a risky thing to do, to give a stranger your phone number, right? And so his success rate was dismal, about 13% in front of each of those kinds of shops. But when he was passing a flower shop, his success rate almost doubled to 24%. Why? Because flowers are associated with romance.

And just having flowers. Flowers in the background, bringing those young women's attention to flowers, made romance more important than safety. Romance became important, and that's what persuasion does. It tells people what to consider important about the next information that they're going to get. it steers them to a particular idea or concept that gets raised in importance in their mind because they were paying attention to it in the moment before. Wow. Again, Bob, there's so much here. And I think of something that's currently going on in our country when it talks about a lot of people ask, and there's been a million posts written on, how has Donald Trump had so much success.

and it made me think of some of your work because I would say he's defined the outgroup maybe because his part of this message is I'm not like all those other people that none of you trust I'm not like one of them so if you aren't like one of them either which he's found there's a good chunk of people that they don't identify with that

if you're not like them either then you need to come with me And it's, I have to say it's worked. Can you describe some of the science behind that? Yeah, it has to do with this, what I'm calling the seventh universal principle of influence. I reveal a seventh principle in the new book, Presuasion, that I call unity. And he's saying, look, he's defining himself as an outsider. And he's saying all you folks who feel outside of the circles of power and influence, right? We're together in this.

In unity, the idea of being together, being united, being of the same group, of the same identity is very powerful in moving people in our direction. So I think that's an example of where some of the leverage is coming from for his campaign. It feels like this is the first time it's been this strong from such an outsider, though. How has he been able to have success? And there's, you know, it's obviously a very controversial guy. I said some things that I think many candidates that would just ruin or summary in their campaigns. And for him, it hasn't done it. Why has this not happened before?

Or maybe it has, I don't know. Yeah. Inside the boundaries of we, which are established by unity, we give people all kinds. of levels of grace. We forgive their mistakes. We apologize for them. We cooperate with them. We support them.

Because inside the boundaries of we exists the people who are of us. So by rejecting that kind of person, we're rejecting ourselves. And we just don't allow ourselves to do that. that. Yeah, no, that makes sense. There's a study out of Beijing, a restaurant there. Could you share that study? I think it's a really interesting story. This is a good choice to bring us down to this study, because it has to do both with one of the principles of influence, which is social proof, the idea that people want to follow the lead of those around them like them, but also pre-suasion,

what you do first before you give them the information you want them to operate on. A study was done in Beijing restaurants, a string of them, where they had the managers put a little asterisk next to certain of the items on the menu. Now, the asterisk didn't refer to, this is the chef's choice of the day, or this is the specialty of our house in this category. No, it referred to the fact that this is one of our most popular items. And each one immediately became 13 to 20 percent more popular. What I love about this is how it was entirely costless. They simply pointed to something that people use to decide what to do next, they put it at the top, at the, before they read anything into the description

of that item, right? They were informed, they were in a mindset of, oh, this must be good because it's popular. And in each case, they became, each item became 13 to 20 percent more popular as a consequence. and it was entirely ethical at the same time. They simply pointed to something that was true. They didn't have to fabricate it. It was beautiful. Wow.

I'm thinking, Bob, of a sales professional who's driving in their car from one appointment to the next. And they're saying, wow, this guy is really interesting. I can't believe I haven't read his book yet, but I'm going to read it right after this podcast. What are some more things that he could say that help me? So I'm thinking of when you have either coached, taught, given presentations, trained sales leaders and sales professionals. Obviously, you can't give the whole presentation now.

We have a deadline here. But I'm curious, what is the core message that you are sharing with people in the profession of selling? Well, the new message is, you know how we were always trained to spend our time getting our message right? getting it clear, getting it logical, getting it structured in such a way that the most favorable features of it were prominent. That remains very important. But there's a new way of thinking about that that we haven't been trained to do. And that is to set up that message, to tee up that message by what we say and do in the instant before we deliver it. That's the key.

Now, let me just suggest one thing that you can do in this regard. And again, it goes against what we've been trained to do. Typically, when we present that message, it is by, we're told to begin with our strongest features, the most compelling aspects of our case, the features of our argument that are the most powerful. That's a mistake. Because people aren't ready to believe us yet. We have to do something to create trust.

And here's what you do. Mention a weakness or drawback in your case. people will say what this person is not just telling me the positives but right up front is mentioning a negative what's the next thing

this person is going to say I'm going to listen differently now I'm going to process the next thing more deeply I'm going to believe it more fully and bang that's the place for your strongest argument right after you've mentioned a weakness and if you've done it right the strength that you then mention undercuts the weakness and they're also not used to

hearing it positioned and sold in that manner exactly right yeah really i i was studying um adam grant writes about this in the book originals i'm not sure if you read read that or not but i have it's really good and and he talks about in there when entrepreneurs are pitching to VCs that, I forget the guy's name, I wish I remember it now, but they were, he was,

the guy would lead with all of the negative things about him and his product and literally would just put it all out there. And this guy was, became one of the most successful guys at raising money for what he was doing because he, he built trust instantly and he was very honest. There's, It's not a tactic.

It's just honesty. And he felt like he would lead with why. And I think even the slide was titled, why you should not invest. Yeah. And just laid it all out there. It's stunning to people. And they pay attention to the next thing you're going to say now.

After that, you know who does this better than anyone I've ever seen as Warren Buffett? Yeah. In the annual shareholders report, on the first or second page, he invariably described something. that went wrong that year. And he describes what he's going to do to counteract it in the next year.

And then he describes the strengths of what went right that year. It's amazing. I've been getting their shareholder reports for 15 years. Every year that he does it, I'm disarmed by it. I say, wow. And the, I don't know if you follow this, but a single share of Berkshire Hathaway on the New York Stock Exchange this morning was going for $221,000 a share. There's never been anything like it in our markets. And it's not just that Buffett and Munger are brilliant financiers and financial.

advisors. They are brilliant psychologists. They know how to set us up for the strengths of their case by getting trust in the equation first. And again, we know, especially the people who are well read, we understand that it's happening and it still works. I think just like, I forget I was talking to you, but the phrase is it's much easier to tell the truth because then you don't have to remember anything. You know, when you're lying, there's always a story that you have to remember. But if you're telling the truth, you just say it. You just say what it is.

And I think that's part of the disarming part of Buffett or others like him or a really professional sales rep or any leader when they're willing to, I think, be a little vulnerable, share, be humble, share what did not go right. But then, you know, they can, they can share what did go right. I think that those are the ones that we tend to trust more. In precisely that sequence, doing it the other way, you don't get the trust first. Yep, exactly. Bob, this is absolutely flown by. I loved it, and I'm excited to see this book become another classic. It I think already has, and it's just come out. but thank you so much for being here. My question was, I said there are phrases,

and I like to think of one word or something that stems from your brain when you hear a phrase. And when you saw that you were going to be a guest on the Learning Leader show, what was the first thought that came to mind when you saw that phrase, learning leader? I thought to myself, great, because so much of this material gets interpreted by, audiences as the way to influence outside of the organization, outside of the organizational envelope

with customers and clients and prospects and vendors. Leaders need to be as influential as our marketers and salespeople inside the organization. So knowing how to influence properly and move people in our direction is just as valuable for managers and leaders to know. So I was thrilled that we had the chance to talk to your audience. Well, me too. Again, thank you so much for being here. Your work has impacted me more than you know. I love to continue this dialogue as we both progress and maybe do another one because there's obviously so much here to talk about. Wonderful. All right. Thanks so much, Bob. So long for now, Ryan. All right. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you

locked in until next time. Head over to Learning Leader Show.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again and we'll see you next time on the Learning Leader Show.