The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 170: Simon Sinek - Why "Together Is Better"

Episode Date: October 23, 2016

Episode 170: Simon Sinek - Why "Together Is Better" Simon Sinek sparked a movement with his bestsellers START WITH WHY and LEADERS EAT LAST. His newest book, Together Is Better, will inspire more readers to ask for help, help others, and discover their own courage through a charming story about change. Simon Sinek is an optimist. He teaches leaders and organizations how to inspire people. From members of Congress to foreign ambassadors, from small businesses to corporations like Microsoft and 3M, from Hollywood to the Pentagon, he has presented his ideas about the power of why. He has written two books, Leaders Eat Last and Start With Why and is quoted frequently by national publications. He was previously a guest on The Learning Leader Show, Episode #107 which remains one of the most popular episodes in the show's history... This one is even better. Episode 170: Simon Sinek - Why "Together Is Better" Subscribe on iTunes  or Stitcher Radio The Learning Leader Show "Most people live their lives by accident as it happens. Fulfillment comes when we live our lives on purpose." In This Episode, You Will Learn: "We're social animals and we need each other" The goal is to find ourselves in a place that we dream to go to "Joy comes from relationships we form when we feel someone cares about us" Why The Four Seasons Hotel in Las Vegas is incredible (the people) Their employees love their jobs -- Why? Their managers constantly work to make the employees lives better Why you must be a student of leadership Often times someone gets promoted based on current performance, but they are rarely trained on how to lead.  Leaders must take time off to regularly train on leading others. Most don't unfortunately. "All the best leaders I know are students of leadership." Execution: The leaders are responsible for the people who are responsible for the results. It's a human job. Consistency and intensity. Daily practice of little things (ie. ban phones in meetings, instead of people texting and email, they will talk) Need to know what we stand for and what we are against Why Jack Welch is a bad leader "Jack Welch is a blight on the business world. GE needed a $300B bailout." - Simon Sinek Being willing to say "I don't know." Having the courage to speak up when you don't know. Ask questions. "Courage is not a deep internal fortitude. When we feel someone cares about us, we're able to make courageous decisions." How Simon started his business as a consultant How his TEDx Talk changed his life Why successful athletes suffer from depression "People come first... Winning is second." - John Wooden Why you must know your "why." What you're a part of... "Leadership: It's a human job. The daily practice of little things. Consistency and intensity." Continue Learning: Read Simon's newest Book: Together Is Better Follow Simon on Twitter: @simonsinek To Follow Me on Twitter: @RyanHawk12 You may also like these episodes: Episode 078: Kat Cole – From Hooters Waitress To President of Cinnabon Episode 071: Nate Boyer - Green Beret, Texas Football, The NFL Episode 073: Jay Bilas - World Class ESPN Basketball Broadcaster, Toughness, Fixing The NCAA Episode 107: Simon Sinek – Leadership: It Starts With Why Did you enjoy the podcast? If you enjoyed hearing Simon Sinek on the show, please don't hesitate to send me a note on Twitter or email me. Episode edited by the great J Scott Donnell The Learning Leader Show is supported by Daor Design - Daor Design will help you build your brand like nobody's business. Most of their work falls into one of four categories: Logo Design, Print Design, Web Design or Digital Marketing. They pride themselves in being a trusted, valued resource for their growing family of clients.

And at the end of the day, we need to treat leadership just like the way we treat doing any other job. And this is why we get managers and not leaders because they actually do know how to do the job better than us because there is no robust training to be a leader. It's a skill like any other. And at the end of the day, we have to study it, we have to learn it, we have to read books about it, we have to watch talks about it and read articles about it. All the best leaders I know, they see themselves as students of leadership and no matter how advanced in their careers they are, they have an insatiable aperture. to learn more about it. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work

on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. Hey, and welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. You know, tonight it was another one of those surreal moments. for me. I got to speak with one of my literary heroes, Simon Sinek, also one of the best

keynote speakers in the world, his TED Talk, how great leaders inspire action has over 28.5 million views, bestselling author of Leaders Eat Last and Start with Why. He almost doesn't even need introduction anymore. He's that well known in this space. I really enjoy the fact that we've developed a friendship over the past year and I think it comes out in this conversation. We discussed his newest book titled Together is Better, which talks about not having a fear for speaking up, potentially looking stupid by asking questions. Also, most of us are living our lives by accident and fulfillment comes by living on purpose. Simon details that as well. And then if you say your job is something you don't plan on doing forever, then why are you doing it now?

A really fascinating talk with Simon where he gets personal towards the end of this conversation about the impact. Some of these big moments have had on his life. And I enjoyed digging deeper and learning even more. Ladies and gentlemen, so cool with Simon Sinek. Simon Sinek, man. It's a pleasure to have you on round two here on the Learning Leader show. The first time you're on, episode number of 107 got a massive amount of response. I still get regular emails from your first appearance.

So thank you so much for coming back for round two, man. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. And I know some of the newer work you've put out, a book called Together is Better. And I think part of this conversation we can focus on some of that new work and, you know, one, why you did it? Because I know it's a big part of obviously you and your leadership. And then we can look back at some of the other topics that maybe we missed the last time because we ran out of time. Specifically, I'm thinking some of the leaders eat last.

material you have out there. But first of all, what prompted you to write together is better and publish it? Well, you know, I write these, you know, my first two books were these sort of thinky, thinky books based on biology and neuroscience and anthropology. And I know that people read some of them. I know a lot of people don't get to the end. But there's a, there's a message that runs through all my work, you know, my books, my talks, every, everything, which is that we're social animals that we need each other. And I thought it would be really nice. to write a simple book that's delightful to read that communicates the message that everybody could get to the end in 20 minutes. So that's what together is better is. It looks like a children's book, but it's meant for adults. And it's just got this really simple message. So that's why I did it. Because quite frankly, it's delightful and it's nice to have a little delight. Not all the messages have to be big and heavy and, you know, they can be fun too.

I love to pull out some of the quotes from it and have you expand on. I know we did that a little bit last time with some of your work and start with why and the talks that you've done. And it's always, it really reinforces some of the message for me and I know for the listeners. So I'd love to do that now if you're cool with it. Yeah, of course. So I'll go somewhat literally in here. So most of us live our lives by accident. We live as it happens.

Fulfillment comes when we live our lives on purpose. Yeah, well, there's a double entendre there, right? So, you know, it's being aware of what your why is, being aware of what your purpose, cause, or belief is, and that you give yourself the opportunity to make every day and everything that you do contribute to something bigger than ourselves. That's sort of the goal. And those who understand their why and those who live a life of why tend to find more than just happiness in their work. You know, like, oh, I got a promotion. Oh, I got a bonus.

Or I got a one of the client, you know, exciting, but rather true fulfillment. There's a joy that comes from work. And when I say doing it on purpose, literally, you have to do it prescriptively. This is not something you stumble around. It's something that every single day you make conscious decisions to do this and not that. And so you live a life of purpose, on purpose. And I think this is the next quote I pulled out is said, we hear it from time of time. I'm sure you hear it a lot.

If you say your job is something you don't plan on doing forever, then why are you doing it now? Yeah, it's a bit of a snarky quote, isn't it? Yeah. You hear so many people, you know, when you say, hey, how's work? You're like, yeah, it's fine, you know, I'm not going to do it forever. You know, how's your job? You know, it's good for now, you know? You hear that all the time.

And so it raises the question, like, we have one life to live. We're not going to live it forever. And we want to get as much out of this life. and our work life as possible. So if you don't want to do it forever, then why do it now? And what I mean by that is I know a lot of people have, you know, I got to provide, I got to pay the bills, you know, I don't have the luxury of just moving around. I get all that.

It's not supposed to challenge that. But the point is that the goal is to, is not necessary to work somewhere to forever, but to find ourselves in a place where we love it so much, we don't dream of going somewhere else on a daily basis. You know, so many of us dream of better jobs on a daily. basis or we dream that our lot would be changed. And the point is, is just, you know, to treat a career like you treat life, which is, I want my life, I want my work to be worth something bigger than me and not just a paycheck. The paycheck should be important, but not the reason. You know,

we want to get more out of it than just money. We want to get joy. We will spend more time at work than we will anywhere else. There should be some joy that comes out of it. And by the way, that joy comes from the relationships we form. It's not. Not necessarily about the work. You can do hard labor. You can do hard work. You can do monotonous work. Any of those things.

But when we feel that someone cares about us, when we feel that someone has our backs, you know, that's what makes the difference. I'll tell you a quick story. So I stayed at the four seasons in Las Vegas, which, by the way, is an amazing hotel, right? And the reason it's amazing hotel is not because of the beds. any company can buy, any hotel can buy fancy beds. It's because of the people. And, you know, when the people say hello to you, you actually think that they care about you. You know, you actually think that they want to say hello to you, not that somebody told them that they have to say hello to all the guests.

That's sort of how it feels, right? Well, anyway, they have a coffee stand in the lobby. And I went to buy a coffee there one afternoon, and they have a barista named Noah. And Noah is absolutely fantastic. He's smart. He's funny. He's engaging. I was laughing the whole time I was talking to him.

I think I gave him 100% tip, you know? And I asked Noah, Noah says to me, without skipping a beat, I love my job. You know, you hear that so rarely these days. And I said to him, what is it that the Four Seasons is doing that would make you say to me, I love my job? And he said, without skipping a beat, he said, throughout the day, managers will walk past me and ask me how I'm doing, ask me if there's anything that I need to do my job better. And he said, not just my manager, any manager. And then he went on to say, I also work at Caesar's Palace.

And the managers at Caesar's Palace, they're always trying to make sure we're doing everything right. And they catch us if we do something wrong. When I go to work there, I just keep my head down. I want to get through the day, get to the end, and get my paycheck. Right? Same person. Same person. And yet the experience that he has and the experience that the customer has will be completely different.

So we keep hearing people say, well, I've got to get the right people on the bus. But it's the same person, right? It's the leadership. And so when I say, you know, if you say this job is not something you want to do forever, then why are you doing it now? That's the point, which is if you're going to do a job, he's a barista, right? And it's the same similar kind of work every day, lots of different people, and he loves what he does. And that's what I mean. You can get joy out of all work.

I know a company called Luck Companies. They're based on the East Coast over here. And basically they run quarries. The guys who work there crush rocks. That's what they do for a living. They crush rocks. They put dynamite in a hole. It blows out big boulders.

They take a machine down. They put them on a conveyor belt and they crush rocks. That's what they do. You've never met people who love coming to work more. And the reason they love coming to work is because they know the company is committed to seeing them grow as human beings. That they take care of each other. There's incredible camaraderie and trust. They've learned how to express their feelings.

Like, it's the most amazing company, but it's not the labor. It's not the work. That's my point. It's the environment. And I want everyone to at least pursue working in a place where, yes, you can make a decent living. But I want you to work in a place where you feel like the people who you work for and you work with actually have your back and care about your well-being because that's where

we find joy in our work. If some of the leaders who work at big companies are listening right now, and I know they are based on people I've talked to and emails I receive, what advice do you give to them to help them make their people feel like they work at a company like that? Well, we have to be students of leadership. You know, this is a skill like any other. When we're very, very junior, the only thing we have to do is be good at our jobs. And some people get advanced degrees on how to be good at their jobs, you know, accountants

or whatever, right? And if you're really good at your job, they'll promote you. and eventually you'll get promoted to a position where you're now responsible for the people who do the job you used to do, but they rarely show us how to do that. You know, companies give us tons of training when we first show up and they have, you know,

all kinds of onboarding processes and teaching us how to use the software and teaching us how we sell and this is how we do things here. And you can take entire days off for training and nobody has any problem with that. But as soon as you become, as soon as you graduate to a leadership position, they never take weeks off to go for training, right? People, it's sort of like an offsite here, a book there, a speaker there, like if we have time, you know, three days, including a day of golf and you're a leader now, you know?

And at the end of the day, we need to treat leadership just like the way we treat doing any other job. And this is why we get managers and not leaders because they actually do know how to do the job better than us because there is no robust training to be a leader. It's a skill like any other. And at the end of the day, we have to study it, we have to learn it, we have to read books about it, we have to watch talks about it and read articles about it. All the best leaders I know, they see themselves as students of leadership, and no matter how advanced in their careers they are, they have an insatiable appetite to learn more about it. You know, we can sit down and all we do is talk and talk and talk and talk about leadership. That's all we do. They're insatiable.

And you have to be. You have to be. If you want to be good at anything, you have to have to have a passion for. learning about that thing. If you want to be a good leader, you have to have a passion for learning about leadership and then practice it. Yeah, I was going to say that was my follow-up question, Simon, because I think this comes up, and I've talked to many people about this, where we do a good job of approaching each conversation with a curious mind, of reading Simon Cynix books, of watching TED Talks, of going to conferences. But then we get back to the office and we have to do the

slash management quote, I'm sorry, quote, management stuff. And as my dad would say, you get caught up in the crush of stuff when you get in a leadership role. And we don't implement and execute. What are some of the key ingredients to being a great executor and not just a learner? Because this has come up with this podcast, actually, because people say, well, you're learning. You're learning. You're learning. You're learning.

You're learning. You're talking all these great leaders. But what about the execution portion? Yeah. So like I said, it's a skill like any other. And there's a couple things to remember, right? One is what your job is as a leader, right? Where you're now responsible for other people, where you're now no longer responsible for the results.

You're now responsible for the people who are responsible for the results. And a lot of people in leadership positions never make that transition where they recognize that their entire responsibility is different. I love talking to CEOs and asking them what's their priority say. My priority is the customer. It's like, dude, you haven't talked to a customer in 15 years. of course it's not you're you can only be responsible for that which you can influence right and so you're responsible for the people who are responsible for the people who are responsible for the results you take care that's that's literally your job now of course in middle management you have

split responsibilities for people and and particular things that you do touch and so you have to split your time right but but it's a human job it's a human job and what makes somebody good at the practice is understanding the difference between consistency and intensity right so intensity is like going to the gym for nine hours the problem is if you go to the gym for nine hours you won't get into shape it just won't happen but if you work out every single day for 20 minutes you will get into shape the consistency is actually greater value than the intensity the problem is how do you measure it how do you measure when you get into shape it's like going to the dentist right you go to the dentist you're supposed to go the dentist twice a year right

that's an intense experience it's easy to measure right I know the date I'm going I I'm going to be there for approximately an hour. And I know when I come out, I know the results. My teeth will be pearly and they'll be feel smooth. And everything's easy to measure in discrete packets. Right. But if you only do that, your teeth will fall out. Right.

You also have to brush your teeth twice a day for two minutes in the morning and two minutes in the evening. Right. Now, what's the value of brushing your teeth for two minutes? Absolutely nothing unless you do it consistently. And though it's easy to measure the intense experiences, it's very hard to measure the value or the efficacy of the consistent experiences, but we know that it's the consistency that matters. Leadership is the same, right?

Making one big, good decision doesn't make you a great leader. It just means you made one big, great decision. That's it, right? Intensity, right? But it's the consistency, the daily practice of really, really little things that by themselves amount to nothing, but in combination and done consistently have a massive, massive impact. For example, ban phones in meetings, no phones in meetings, right?

Now, what's the impact of that? Doing it once? Absolutely nothing. Absolutely zero, right? But doing it every single day consistently, what you'll find is instead of people checking their emails or texting while we're waiting for Bob to show up, you'll find them talking, that they'll start saying, hey, how'd that thing go with that client? Oh, thanks for asking.

Or, hey, how's your dad? You know, he's back from the hospital. Thanks for asking. You know, that's where relationships form. Trust and relationships are not events. It's a process, right? And you have to form them and work on them on a daily basis. And little chit-chat is what helps build those relationships.

But if you're not doing it, and if leaders aren't creating the environments that allow relationships to build, then they won't. Then trust won't build as robustly as it could. You're driving to work, and somebody wants to cut into your lane. Do you pull your car forward? or do you pull your car back? That's leadership. You're considering the life of another, sometimes ahead of your own interests.

We don't know. Maybe that person is out of work, and they had trouble getting the kids out to school this morning, and now they're running late for a really important interview, and so they're going to cut into your lane. Or maybe they're just a bastard. I don't know, right? But the point is that's an active leadership,

which is allowing them into the lane, because we don't really know what their lot is, right? It's this daily practice of tiny little discrete packets of decisions we make, tiny little things that by themselves amount to nothing, except for the fact that they're allowing you to practice leadership. They're allowing you to practice putting the lives of others sometimes ahead of our own interests. You buy yourself a cup of coffee and you bring another one for the person who sits next to you at work. They didn't ask for it. You just did it. That's the practice of leadership. And then what you find is that when something big needs to be done where you need to consider the lives of others, it's actually.

much easier decision to make because you've been practicing for so long. And like I said, like exercise, like eating healthy, like falling in love, it's lots and lots and lots and lots of little things that any one of those things would do nothing but done consistently.

And the intensity is the things like reading the books, watching the TED talks, going to the conferences, that you get a big lesson, you get something to practice, you get some, like the dentist, you get some block and tackling. The balance of consistency plus intensity. It makes me think a little bit of Darren Hardy's work and the compound effect, you know, brick by brick.

You know, what does the one brick do? And really nothing. But if you consistently do it every single day, eventually you're going to have a house. And I think that from an execution standpoint, it makes a lot of sense. And you have to understand the big picture, but also understand the daily practices that it takes in order to achieve the levels that you're looking to achieve from a big picture perspective. Exactly right. Exactly right. Another part, and this makes me thought a little bit not trying to just name drop other authors,

but I guess this is what happens when you talk to a lot of different people or read their work, you say we can start a revolution when we know what we stand against to create chains at last, however we need to know what we stand for. And some of the greatest leaders that I've studied, I think do both of these things very well. And they're also not afraid to share what they stand against and also share what they stand for. It's not a better or worse consideration, right? But the point is that I believe in revolutionary change, but I don't necessarily believe that revolutions are always the best tactical way to do it.

Right? Revolutions, I think, are really, really great when small change becomes impossible, when it's an absolutely overwhelming and oppressive regime, you know. But in our Western democracy where, you know, we get paid for the work, even though we have bad leadership, you know, do we need a revolution? I mean, I think we do, to some degree, but do we need a violent revolution? Do we need an angry revolution? No, we don't, you know? And I believe it's the balance of both that you absolutely do need people out there. They're rattling windows and shaking it up. But you also need a bunch of people in the shadows who are steadily making change. You know, there's two ways to affect change. You can throw stones at palace windows or you can go inside and befriend the king. Both can be very effective, but one of them you get hot oil poured on you. And I like the idea of going into the palace, earning their trust, and then tinkering with the system, earning the king's trust and making change. And before you know it, with these slow steps, not necessarily slow, but with these small steps,

the evolutionary change then becomes revolutionary. In other words, there's no turning back. Remember, all revolutions generally have a counter-revolution. But evolution is so hard to see change that it really takes a lot of work to go backwards. And by the way, evolution can also be bad. Think about a lot of the business models that we currently live in today. A lot of the business models that are quote-unquote considered normal today are actually leftovers from the 80s and 90s. Right. So the concept of shareholder supremacy where we put the interests of an outside party ahead of the interests of the company or its employees or its customers, right?

That's like a coach prioritizing the needs of the fans over the players, right? That's what shareholder supremacy is. So the concept of shareholder supremacy was a theory proposed in the late 1970s, popularized in the 80s and 90s. The concept of using mass layoffs to balance the books, which has now become so regular in our country that nobody even, like, it's like mentioned on the news or somebody says, yeah, I got laid off. Like, it's not even like a big deal anymore. It's so regular. The concept of using mass layoffs to balance the books did not exist in the United States. Did not exist in the United States prior to the 1980s. It was popularized in the 80s and 90s.

The concept of ranking yank, where you rank your people and the people who contribute most to the share price get promoted and the people who don't get fired was popularized by people like Jack Welch in the 80s and 90s. In boom years during a kind of gentler cold world, a kind of gentler cold war in a world of relative peace. The problem is, is we don't live in those times anymore. These are not boom years. It is not a time of relative peace.

And it's a fast and more complicated world with globalization and the internet. So work then doesn't work now. But the point is it took 20 or 30 years for those new ideas that were they were experimenting with to become standard, which means we now need to change them. And we now need to do the things to undo them. And it's probably going to take us, you know, 20 years to completely undo those. There's not going to be some revolution where people just stop using mass layoffs. Yeah.

Right? That would be regulation. That's the only way you would be able to do that. Literally, Congress would ban it. And then you'd have a counter revolution because people would be up in arms of that was even proposed. Don't tell us how to run our businesses, right?

And so what we need to do is we need great leaders, like Gary Ridge, like Bob Chapman, right? We need these great leaders who refuse to let their people suffer, right? That they would rather everybody hurt a little bit than any one person hurt a lot. they rather that the company suffer together rather than a few people suffer the most

right that they'll take the hit together as a company rather than force people to lose their job so that the company can balance its books right never sacrificing people for the numbers but rather sacrificing numbers for the people right we need these leaders we need to recognize them talk about them we need other leaders with the courage to lead like them

and here's the joke their numbers are better than everybody else they tend to outperform their competition over the long term. In other words, we need more and more of these leaders. And what we will find is that in 10 or 20 years, we will completely reverse all of the madness that it's left over from the 80s and 90s. You know, Simon, last time you talked, like I mentioned in episode 107, you talked about Gary Ridge and WD40 and what he's doing there and not ever using mass layoffs in his history as

the leader of that company. And so I obviously reached out to Gary as I am to do and then recorded. a phenomenal episode with him as well. And I received an email from a senior level vice president at a big company who has had an incredible career I've since learned. And this leader told me that episode had such an impact on them that they went on Gary's website and looked for a job to work for him. An incredible, incredible feedback to receive about the power of great leadership.

Hey, I love Gary. And, you know, the average lifespan of a CEO for a public company these days is something like 18 months or something ridiculous, right? Something so low. Gary has been CEO of this public company for 17 years, right? That should tell you something about his leadership style and the results he gets because no board would allow some ooey-goey-mushy-mushy CEO to be in there. He's like, I love people if the numbers weren't there, right? 17 years and the board loves him. Right? So the point is, is this company that's basically a one product company that dominates the market.

And the reason to dominate, with a relatively unsexy product, you know, home and industrial lubricants, right? Not a very sexy product. They're not making computers. They're not in tech. And yet the people who work there love working there. And Gary sees himself as a servant to his people. There to see and help his people be at their natural best. If you ask him what his job is, he'll tell you, I'm here to help my people grow. I'm here to help my people be at their natural best. He's not trying to get the most out of his people. He's not trying to serve the shareholder. He wants to take care of his people. His people will take care of each other.

His people will take care of the job. And guess who wins? Everybody. Everybody. What do you think of Jack Welch? I think that Jack Welch is a blight on the business world. I think we hail him because of his financial success, but we don't see the long-term damage that he did

to business. You know, his theories that are so popular that these days and so normal, they served the interests of a few. And at the end of the day, after the 2008 financial crisis, GE needed a $300 billion bailout. Well, that's the company that Jack built. It was not built to last. It was built for short-term gains, and it wasn't built on stable ground. We don't judge the quality of a crew by how the ship performs in calm waters. We judge the quality of a crew by how the ship performs in rough waters. So, yes, in the boom years of the air, 80s and 90s, GE was amazing. But as soon as the warders got rough, the thing literally would have collapsed without a government bailout.

That's not a strong company. And, you know, I think the theories that he, that he championed, pit people against each other. And it was all for short-term gains. I think we need to undo most of what Jack Welch did in the business world. Have you ever talked to him? No. I don't think. Do you know if he's aware of your work?

I have, I have no clue. Oh, it's interesting. Another topic that's come up recently, Simon, is the willingness or I guess the not having a fear of looking stupid as a leader, meaning there's oftentimes meetings we're in where somebody might say something. And as a leader, you have no idea what they're talking about. And the greatest leaders seem to have a willingness to speak up and say, I don't, I don't, like Tom Hanks, the movie big, I don't get it. You know, they're saying, I don't, can you explain? I don't understand, but there are other leaders who are fearful of saying this.

And this is something that you write about. You say, when we say out loud what we don't know, it increases the likelihood that someone who does know will offer help. And I found that compelling because of the recent conversations I've had with leaders about having no fear when it comes to speaking up if you don't know. Yeah, well, I learned this lesson the hard way. I mean, when I was struggling in my career, I didn't want anybody to know, right? Because I believe that my credibility as a leader depended on how smart I was and all the answers

that I had, right? I'm supposed to be smarter than everybody else because I'm the boss, right? So I spend a lot of my days lying, hiding, and faking. And it's high, it's, I got to tell you, it's unbelievably stressful. And it certainly doesn't, it completely detracts from any joy of work that we may have. And you live in fear of being found out, you know. And if somebody asked a difficult question, I found myself getting defensive rather than just answering the question, you know? And so what I learned was if I'm willing to take the risk to say, I don't know, or I need help or I made a mistake,

there are, you know, we always think that there's nobody there to help. But the joke is we're surrounded by people who want to help. If only we'd be willing to say we need it. Like as soon as you're willing to say, I can't do this or I need help or I don't know or I made a mistake, people around us rally to help us fix the mistake. mistake or come to our aid or explain something if we're willing to. And occasionally we get humiliated, right? But this is the point of vulnerability. Vulnerability, you know, they say you have to be vulnerable.

You have to be a vulnerable leader. That doesn't mean walking around crying, right? Vulnerability means willing to admit you made a mistake. Vulnerability means willing to say, I don't know. Vulnerability means willing to put yourself in a position that is literally vulnerable, makes you look not as strong as you think you are. And the irony is we're all human. And not everybody knows the answer to every question.

And we all make mistakes. And so when the leader is the one willing to set that tone, if the leader is willing to admit vulnerability, guess what happens? Everyone is willing to do it. If the leader doesn't do it, no one will do it, right? Because that's the standard that's set. So if the leader's willing to do it, that means someone else will raise their hand and says, I don't know how to do this. Someone else will raise their hand and say, I'm stuck. I made a mistake.

I screwed up. Can you help me? I'm not sure how to do the job you've asked me to do. And we can help them. But if they're not willing to ask, we can't. And then things break. And then it's too late or the situation is even worse. So the leaders who are willing to try it, and by the way, it goes back to that consistency and intensity answer.

The first time you do it, nothing will happen. The second time you do it, nothing will happen. The third time you do it, you might be completely humiliated. But if people start to sense that you're just an honest broker about your own strength and weaknesses and limitations, it really changes the dynamic completely. It really is an incredible, incredible thing. Can you think of a story or an example of a time when a leader, maybe it's something we all know or maybe not, maybe something that you picked up on, where they were willing to not be fearful of potentially looking foolish, but they spoke up, they showed some humility. they asked for help and it worked for the better from a leadership perspective. Well, I mean, my own personal story.

So what was that story? I mean, I was that small business owner who thought I had to be the smartest in the room. We thought I had to know all the answers. I mean, I trusted my people and I like my people and I didn't think I was smarter than my people. but I thought as far as my job went and like big decisions that had to be made, like I had to sort of have all the certainty. You know, the reality was I spent a lot of days in doubt. And it quite frankly wasn't until a friend came to me and said, I'm worried about you. Did that give me the courage to ask for help?

And this is what I learned. And this is sort of the metaphor behind together is better behind this new little book that I wrote, which is courage is not this deep internal fortitude. where, you know, dig down deep and find the courage, you know? But rather, courage comes from the outside, which is when we feel that someone has our back, when we feel that someone cares about us or that someone believes in us, we're actually willing to make difficult, hard, courageous decisions, right?

And when we see a leader do something difficult or courageous, that actually inspires us to do something difficult and courageous. I mean, I've had the privilege of meeting a lot of folks in the military, many of whom who have risked their lives to save the lives of others. And I've asked them, why did you do it? No one would have ordered you to do it.

No one would have faulted you if you didn't. Why did you do it? And they all say the same thing. It's just because they would have done it for me. In other words, the courage they have doesn't come from something in the water. The courage they have is the knowledge that others have their backs.

And so that was my story. I really didn't have. the courage to be vulnerable. I didn't have the courage to admit mistakes or admit my own limitations until I felt that somebody really cared about me and loved me no matter what. And then it gave me the courage to take those risks, knowing that if something made me feel uncomfortable or if I regretted it, I could always go to someone and say, I'm scared. And they would say, I got you. Right? It's like a trapeze artist. If you're going to do a brand new death-difying act for the first time, do you want to do it with a net, without a net? Right. Of course, you're going to do it. You know, of course, you

would never try that new death-defying act for the first time without a net. You'd never do it. Right. The risks are too great. That's what a human relationship provides us. When we know that net is there, that we can go to someone and say, I'm scared, I don't know, can I do this? And they go, don't worry. I got you. And if you fall, you'll try again.

I got you. That's what happens. And my own career and life experience proves it. I would not be where I am today. I can promise you that 100% if I'd, didn't have the courage to tell people what I knew and what I didn't know, what I was good at and what I was bad at, where I made mistakes and where I needed help, what my limitations are, what my weaknesses are, when I was tired, when I was overwhelmed, when I was scared, I would not be

where I am today. And as a result, I am where I am today, not because of me. I used to think it was because of me, right? I used to think it was my ideas, and it was completely, I'm an idiot, right? It's not because of me. It's because all the people who believe in me and all the people who believe in my ideas and all the people who want to see those ideas spread and want to leverage their talents and their skills and and and and their why that we work together that I'm simply a cog in a machine like they are a cog and machine and we have a pretty powerful machine together but I'm still just a cog in a machine you know I'm the noisy I'm the noisy cog right how did you go from that make that maybe I don't know the analogy cross that bridge from

being unsure and you mentioned that you felt you were able to do it because somebody they had your back I mean what did you know how did you know was there a specific moment something that happened that showed okay I can open up and share with with my colleagues so that I guess worked for you at that time yeah it sounds so clean and simple but like consistency and intensity it wasn't it wasn't you know a discrete event and there was a point at which I think my the people who are worked with, thought I was insane, you know, when I was making these changes. And I ended up starting from scratch. Remember, I only had a small business. It was just a few of us. And I decided to start from scratch. When I discovered this thing called the Y, I became so enamored with it and believed

in it so much that I wanted to do this more than what I was doing. And so I sort of shut down my office and sort of decided that I'm going to turn myself into the guinea pig, which is I'm going to prove that this concept of why works and I'm not going to try and force fit it into the business that I have. I'm going to literally start from scratch and that's what I did. So I took a big risk, but it didn't feel like a risk to me. Because I shut my office down and like got out of my lease, a lot of my friends thought that I'd gone out of business and I was more relaxed and happier than I'd been in years. And so the confidence that I had in my own decisions was much higher. It didn't feel like a risk to me. It felt it felt obvious. When was this? 10 years ago, if you can believe that.

10 years ago. So what were you doing and then what did you start doing after that? I had a strategic marketing consultancy. Yeah. And we had great clients. We did great work. But I fell out of love with it. And then people kept asking me to talk to them about this thing called the Y. And I literally would start in people's living rooms talking to their friends. And I'd help people find their Y for 100 bucks on the side. And it's all I talked about it. It was an obsession.

I was on a business trip in Canada. and I had lunch with an old client and he asked me what I was up to these days and I literally pulled out a napkin and drew the golden circle why how and what which was my obsession and he was like this is amazing

I'm like he said would you come back to my office and show this to my CEO and I said sure so we went back to his office and I showed it to his CEO and she said this is amazing can you help us find our why

I said yeah she said can you do it today I was like yeah she said how much will it cost and I thought to myself it's $100. And so I said out loud, it's $5,000. And she said, okay.

Wow. And I made $5,000 for doing a day's worth of work. And I literally walked out giggling. I was like, this is ridiculous. This is insane. And that's when I realized that I could make a living doing this thing that I loved. And I didn't have to do it on the side. So it was funny.

And that's how it got started. That's how I got started. And so if somebody asked you to come do that for them today, maybe it's, I don't know, any big, big company, can you help us do this assignment? How does that conversation sound today verse 10 years ago? Well, the idea now exists, right? Yeah. So I don't sit down and they're like, so, what's on your mind? Like, I don't, I don't, people have either seen the TED talk or read a book.

Yeah. And so, you know, I made a decision back then that I wasn't really interested in building. a consultancy. You know, I was interested in being a preacher and spreading the message. I believe that the message was more powerful and there was greater scale to be achieved by spreading the message than simply being able to tell a few companies about it because I was the one doing it, you know? And so it was a completely different model. So I've set myself on a path to be much more of a spreader of ideas. We absolutely do help people find their Y. We have that's amazing online Y discovery course that the folks of my team built. It's incredible. It took the original

process that I used to use and made it even better and put it online for small businesses and individuals at start with Y.com. And we do have a small group of people that we work with who do help go into companies and find their Y. We do do it. And we work, we have a partnership with EY with Ernst & Young where we get to work with bigger companies. Well, we work with big companies do, but we work with a greater scale, work with more companies, I should say, because we only have a small team of consultants. But yeah, it goes and it grows, and I'm always looking for ways to spread the message and spread the idea and help people find their why. I'm very proud of the fact that there's now demand for it. Yeah. So the TED Talks filmed September 2009,

how great leaders inspire action. Everybody listens to this has probably watched it. Over 28.5 million views and saying when you went to give the talk, it was TEDx Puget Sound, is that correct? That is correct. Little, like, seemed like a little TEDx event? Yeah, it was a little TEDx event. It was like 50 or 60 people in Seattle.

What did you expect to happen after you gave that talk? Nothing. Okay. Was there a specific moment when it, because like, did it just blow up instantly once it was put online? or did it take, was there a moment where all of a sudden it went viral? Because I don't remember exactly when it came out.

Obviously, you've watched it many times since then, but I don't remember exactly what happened when it first came out. Yeah, I did the talk in September of 2009, and the folks at TED put it on TED.com in, I think, May of 2010. And so this was, I got very lucky, understand, that this was a time in which there weren't that many TEDx events, right? There just weren't that many TEDx talks. Now there's thousands of thousands of them. And I think if I did that talk today, it just wouldn't stand out. There's so many good ones out there. And the quality, the production quality of the new ones is so much better.

Like this one, didn't you have to change microphones? Oh, yeah. The video quality sucks. The audio quality sucks. My microphone broke at the beginning. Like this is why when people like freak out when they get their big break to do a TEDx talk, you know, their PowerPoint or something breaks, like they think their world is ending. And the answer is just take it in stride.

and the content matters more than your presentation, you know, theater. And I'm living proof of it. My microphone actually broke and it didn't affect anything. So, and I didn't request to do it again or anything like that. We just, we just did it, you know? And I think part of the reason I was relaxed is like TEDx was, Ted was still a big deal back then. But I, but there was no, it was a small, it was a small engagement, you know. And it started to get some popularity on YouTube reasonably quickly.

I mean, over those few months. And I think it became the number one or number two. Watch TEDx Talk on YouTube. And that's when the folks at TED.com decided to put it on the main website. So May, and then what happened to your life? You know, it got surreal. Yeah. You know, it started to get surreal.

I mean, first of all, my, you know, the demand to be, to come into organizations or to industry events and speak more. went up, obviously. But, you know, people started to recognize me on the street, which got, you know, which was new for me. I'm, I've always been a behind the scenes guy. I still am a behind the scenes guy. Like, the work that I am proud of stuff is the work that people don't even know that I do. Like what? And, you know, I'm, I'm an advisor behind the scenes to a bunch of people that I think are really special. And I, you know, a bunch of organizations behind the scenes. And, you know, that's the stuff that I like. I like, I like being in the shadows. I like being a

behind the scenes guy. So this front of the proscenium sort of life was a new thing. for me. So that's, that was, yeah, it's, it's been a surreal life ever since, one that I'm immensely grateful for. What's it like day to day now? What do you, what's, uh, I know you probably don't have regular day after day, but what is the, the, the, the typical day look like. I see you on Instagram from travel and, um, in and out burger and other places that you go. My filtered life. Yeah. That's what's called Instagram. It's called my filtered life. Yeah. Yeah. So what is it like today? My life is normal, you know, you, you know, it's like my life is completely normal.

You know, I do absolutely have these... It doesn't look normal. It looks pretty cool. I do have these opportunities to do amazing, surreal things, you know, that are absolutely once in a lifetime opportunities that I, that blow my mind every time. I'm so grateful for every time one of those opportunities shows up, I can't even tell you. And I have a love of sharing them, you know, that if I can bring people along to share

these insane events with me, I will, or share them, you know, suit them on Instagram so that others can join me vicariously. You know, I do love sharing. But, you know, it's, you know, the day to day is, is, is normal. I mean, I wake up and I have work to do and I have to answer emails and, you know, I guess one of the differences I do an interview like this, that, that, you know, but that doesn't happen every day. It happens now and then, you know. I, I mean, I think, I think, yeah, I think we all have our own unique challenges and opportunities, and I think every one of us has the opportunity to do something surreal and outside of the box. And And I think it's not about comparing our life to anybody else, but rather embracing and enjoying what we've got.

You know, human beings kind of help themselves. We can't help ourselves, but compare ourselves to other people. You know, I'm sure you've done this. You've gone to an event, right? Yeah. And they give out a goody bag at the end. They give out shwag at the end. And, you know, you pull out, you look in your bag and there's like a red t-shirt.

And you're like, cool. And you see somebody else pull out a blue t-shirt out of their bag. And you look at it and you're like, oh. the blue is so much better. Oh, I want, oh, this sucks.

I want a blue one and you go to the person who's giving up a guy, like, do you have another blue t-shirt? You don't? I think, oh,

like, like seriously, you just got a free t-shirt and you're whining that it's not blue, right? Yeah. And this is,

this is, but this is us. We can't help but compare. Scientists have done studies on this. I wrote about this and Leaders Eat Last, which is, they offered people,

I can't remember the exact details, but you'll get the idea, that they offered people a free house for $400,000 on a block where most of the other houses are about $100,000, or a free house for a million dollars, worth a million dollars on a block where most of the other houses are $4 million. And most people chose the $400,000 house. Right? Yeah.

Exactly. Because we can't help but compare our lot to the lots of others, as opposed to being like, oh, my God, I love what I've got. I'm grateful for what I've got and not constantly comparing. you know, we're always comparing our rankings to somebody else, you know, so many of these rankings are so arbitrary anyway, you know, rather than just being grateful. So I, you know, I'm immensely grateful for all the opportunities afforded to me in the crazy life that I live. And, and, and, but I'm, yeah, yeah. Do you find yourself, like, I, I, I, I think some of the people who have, um, sustained excellence or, uh, some of say are very successful. And I think a lot of times now of like world class athletes who have a habit of winning, it seems that once their playing days are over, they really struggle because they've had this intense drive.

I just spoke with the best obstacle racer in the world. Her name's Amelia Boone. And she's hurt right now. And she's won a countless amount of obstacle course racing. Beaten guys is literally the Michael Jordan of racing. And it's tough because I think it's hard to turn that switch. off. Yeah.

And so I wonder, like, do you ever work with somebody like that? Maybe a professional athlete who's making the transition from being one of the best. I'm thinking of like Kobe Bryant right now to where they have to move on to something else in their life. And it's really hard to capture or feel, I don't know, the feeling of winning, the adulation from fans when you've done well. Like, what are your thoughts on that? Well, this is, you know,

Individual athletes, athletes who compete in individual sports, after they achieve greatness, very often suffered depression. So Andre Agassi becomes the greatest tennis player of all time. And what happens immediately? Depression. What's his name? Michael Phelps. He becomes the highest medal winning athlete of all time, Olympian of all times. So what happens immediately after?

Depression, right? Because what happens is they spent their entire life in pursuit of a goal. you know, what happens if you achieve that goal? I have a friend who she was on Broadway. And as a little girl, she used to fantasize about being on Broadway. And so what happens is when you're driven by a finite goal, when you're driven by this maybe distant but achievable goal, right? It's not unrealistic, right?

And you set your life on that path, and every decision you make is self-serving. Every decision you make is so I can achieve the goal, right? whether it's financial or whatever. I'm going to be a millionaire, whatever. So every decision you make, you do to advance the goal. And so my friend would take dance classes and her mother would take her wherever. And every decision she made was to get to Broadway.

And you know what? She got to Broadway. And then you know what happened? She had a good time for a few years and then depression. Because where is she going to go next? She literally didn't know how to make the next goal. Right? So it's the same thing, which is, you know, somebody says I'm going to make X many millions of dollars.

They achieve it. And then what? And so they said another number, but it's not fulfilling the next time they get it. And so this is what happens. We had this rat race. And so Andre Agassi had to learn that it was service, that it's only when he started taking care of others. When he wasn't putting himself in his own selfish ambitions first, did he really find joy? Right?

Team athletes don't suffer the same thing as much as individual athletes because they work together better. right and so remember as social animals we need each other and so when all we do is put our own selfish priorities first over the course of time it really becomes destructive even if we achieve them to our when I say destructive I mean just destructive to us I remember a few years ago one of the olympics that somebody released a survey or a study that was done they asked Olympic athletes something to the effect of if you could be guaranteed to medal, a bronze medal, a bronze medal, but your career would end in five years versus no medal and, you know, this Olympics and who knows how long your career

lasts, and sort of an incredibly high number were okay meddling and having their careers end. Then they were asked, I can't remember the exact details, it was insane. Like, you'd be guaranteed a gold, this Olympics, but you would die in five years or something. And like 60 or 70 percent said yes. Wow. And like the drive for these individual achievements is so intense. They would literally prefer to die in five years than not metal. It's insane. Yeah. Right? But like you said, that kind of drive, not only does it get you to those feats, but that kind of drive can also have you lose perspective on the value of things and what's valuable in life. So I, it's, Yeah, for me, the opportunity to serve and service and to see those around me thrive

and to be a part of a collective goal is way more powerful and way more important to me than any individual goals I have from my own personal thing. And I think in our modern day and world, day and age, we're setting financial goals and trying to achieve them as opposed to helping the collective grow, you know? Yeah, what advice would you give? I mean, I briefly went through this, not briefly. It was hard, you know, when I've got done playing football in college and afterwards, and there are people who are going through this every day having to make these, these transitions where they've reached these insane goals that they set. They had dreams as kids, and they've grown up and they've achieved the dreams, maybe even more than what they dreamed of.

And then they have to make the transition. You know, my younger brother is kind of potentially in the middle of this now after playing the NFL for 10 years plus. And I'm curious, you know, if you talk to these people, what advice do you give them? It sounds like, you know, service of others. but I mean like having a day-to-day reason to wake up. Potentially they have enough money where they don't need to make any more money. What do you tell them?

But it's not the money that it's not the money anymore. It goes back to the comparison, right? I don't make the most money, that somebody else makes more money, and I'm better than he is, and yet he makes more money than me. And you look at some of these free agents, and it's an insane system, right? Right, right, right. I talked to an NFL coach, and I asked him, what percentage of your players play for themselves versus each other?

play for their own individual glory versus the glory of the team right and he said honestly I said of course honestly 90% play for themselves he said right so you take a bunch of people who playing for themselves and you put them on a team it's no wonder that you know you have you'll have one you can you can win a championship with a team like that but you can't win a championship year after year after year after year after year after year like that you know I mean you look at John Wooden and his ability to win so many times is because he actually believed winning came second, you know? He believed people came first.

But the problem is it may not happen in year one. And everybody wants everything to happen in year one. You know, you see coaches getting fired because they didn't win the first year that they were hired, you know? So the advice is you've got to know your why. You've got to know what you're a part of. I mean, without a sense of cause, without a sense of belief, without a sense of something bigger than ourselves, then we will put ourselves first because what else do we have? as a point of reference.

You know, we will put our own financial or career goals first because what else do we have as a point of reference? Yeah. And worse, too many of us are working in companies that actually promote that. You know, I mean, most bonuses are given for individual success, not group success. Yeah. Yeah. Makes a lot of sense.

I could talk to you for hours and hours, man, Simon. And I obviously fully expect to us chat again. You're obviously welcome to come back anytime. I love having you on. It's great to have round two. It flew by, but I really appreciate it. Are there specific places now that you'd send people maybe to pick up the new book for my listeners to go learn more about you online? Yeah, the new book is available in fine bookstores everywhere and also some not so fine ones.

So wherever you like to buy books, the fun thing about it is it is only available as a hardcover. It is not a digital book. And the reason is because I wanted to produce something. that we had to engage with. You know, I think many of our lives are out of balance. I think digital is cool, but not too much of it. You know? Yep.

Like, we text more than we have conversations, right? Yep. And so I produce something that literally can only exist in the physical world. It's illustrated. It's full of quotes. So it's hard to make something that's full of color. Yep. Completely digital.

But it also has some other surprises in it. It's scented. The book, I had a custom scent designed. So one of the pages, you rub your fingers over it, and it actually smells like optimism. The book has a song. Allo Black gave me a song to put in the book, and it has its own little music video that goes with it. We produce some cards that go with it. We have a partnership with moo.com, where we took some of my favorite quotes and some of my favorite illustrations

as little reminders that people can send to people or hang in their offices. So it's a dynamic book, and people can find it wherever they like to buy books. And also your team mentioned to me prior us talking that they were going to send some autograph copies and to give out to loyal listeners. So feel free to send me a note at learning leader.com. My listeners can send a note and I'll send a few out to some people. So I'm looking forward to doing that as well. But Simon, seriously, thank you so much again for being here. I love to talk and certainly will continue our dialogue as we both progress, man.

I hope so, Ryan. And I always enjoy talking to you. Thanks very, very much. All right. I really appreciate it. Thanks, Simon. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time.

Head over to Learning Leadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on the Learning Leader Show.