The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 172: Sarah Knight - The Life Changing Magic Of...

Starting point is 00:00:00 You cannot spend your time, energy, and money on things you can't control. And you can't control what other people think of you. All you can control is your behavior. So be honest, be polite, don't be an asshole, do what you want. And that's really all you can do in the situation because there are going to be people who don't like you or don't respect you or don't agree with your decisions no matter what. It could just be because you remind them of somebody they don't Like it could be because you got a job that they wanted and they didn't get. And all, as I said, you know, all you can do is really control your own behavior. Are leaders born or are they made?

Starting point is 00:00:40 Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. Hey and welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. A quick warning in regards to this episode.

Starting point is 00:01:17 It contains an immense amount of bad language. If that is not for you, then I would encourage you to skip this one and move on to the next. For those of you who continue to listen, my featured leader is Sarah Knight International Best Selling author, former senior editor with several major publishing houses has worked with some of the best authors in the world. I think you're really going to enjoy this one if you decide to listen to Sarah's message. A few of the topics we got into. The two-step not sorry method for mental decluttering. How to stop caring so much about what others think of you, then how people pleasers can embrace the power of no. Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, it's Sarah Knight.

Starting point is 00:02:08 Sarah, thank you so much for being here on the Learning Leader Show. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me, Ryan. A question for you. You've worked with a number of really impressive writers and leaders in your industry. You've developed, and you are also someone who I think others look to as a leader in your profession. I'm curious from your perspective, what are some of the common themes or characteristics you found in the greatest writers in the world? That's a really good question. I have worked with so many fantastic writers, some of whom write fiction, some of whom

Starting point is 00:02:55 write nonfiction. I've worked with people who have written only one book in their life. For example, Deborah Feldman's memoir, Unorthodox, that she wrote for me, which was really phenomenal. And then, you know, I've worked with people like Chris Cleave and James Lee Burke, who are writing in different genres. and can, you know, turn out a book a year or a book every two or three or four years and really sustain it. And I think that the common thread between all of those people that I just mentioned,

Starting point is 00:03:27 as well as many others I've worked with, is hard work, you know, dedication, really getting up and doing the thing every day. And, you know, I feel like I carry that same work ethic in me, and it's enabled me to succeed in my chosen field and also enabled me to take the risk of leaving my chosen field and going on to do something sort of completely different with my life. And so I would say that, you know, I really, I value that in a writer because, you know, a lot of it is innate talent, but I think a lot more of it is hard work.

Starting point is 00:04:05 Share what you did. The big decision you made, roughly I believe it was in 2015 from, you know, share what you were doing and what you decided to do at that time. Sure. I was a senior editor at a publishing house in New York, one of the big five publishers, and I'd been on that career path for 15 years ever since I graduated from college and moved to New York City. And it was something I thought I was done.

Starting point is 00:04:30 You know, I thought that's what I was going to do for the rest of my life and I was going to keep climbing up the ladder. And one day I was going to be a publisher and maybe a CEO, but that I was going to work in that business. until I no longer worked. And over the course of about a year leading up to May of 2015, I was just incredibly unhappy. I was having a really hard time just getting out of bed and getting in the shower and getting dressed and leaving my house and, you know, facing the prospect of getting on the subway and

Starting point is 00:05:01 commuting to this job that I, you know, used to love. And I realized that it was a combination of, you know, lifestyle issues and a little bit of sort of industry issues that were that were contributing to me no longer being happy about the job. It certainly wasn't about working with the writers who I love and also doing the actual editing, which is a really fun and sort of intellectually stimulating exercise for me. But I knew that I was unhappy and I decided that I was going to have to leave this job that had been sort of the, you know, the goal that I had been aiming toward for most of my adult life. And I spent a year saving up money, which is something I've written about before,

Starting point is 00:05:48 deciding sort of how much I would need in the bank in order to quit my job and have some expenses, you know, lined up while I figured out a freelance career. And I spent a year doing that. And every single day, I put aside a little bit of money and then, you know, you. In May of 2015, I walked into my boss's office and I said, I'm not happy and I just don't want to do this anymore. And, you know, I'm out. And he was very surprised. But it has worked out beyond my, you know, wildest expectations. What happened next?

Starting point is 00:06:24 Well, I had been planning my freelance career. So I had already had my website designed and, you know, a logo and business cards printed up. and I had created myself a list of people that I would reach out to as soon as the news broke that I was leaving, you know, my company so that I could freelance edit and also do some ghost writing and other writing for clients. And so I really dove right in and I started booking jobs right away. And I would, you know, go back to saying that it's, I think, very important to plan that sort of thing out. It's very romantic to say, you know, just decide one day, fuck. I'm out, but it's not terribly responsible. And, you know, I'm not the kind of person who wants to fly by the seat of my pants.

Starting point is 00:07:16 I'm not the kind of person who wants to take risks like that with no safety net. And you kind of have to create your own net sometimes. So, you know, I left and I enjoyed my summer in New York and I started working with clients. and then I had a really great idea for a book that kind of distilled my recent epiphany, and I sold the proposal, and suddenly I was on the other side of the publisher's desk. And what gave you the idea for this book? Well, it was a couple of things. When I left my job, I suddenly had time for pleasure reading, which I had not had for 15 years.

Starting point is 00:07:57 not that reading the work of my authors was not pleasurable, but I was typically editing a manuscript anywhere from three to six times before it ever, you know, sees the bookshelf. So I was, you know, reading the same 300 or 400 pages over and over again half a dozen times, and it didn't leave me a lot of room to read for pleasure. So when I left that job, I immediately picked up a stack of books that I had had sort of waiting. And one of them was the sort of cult hit and now global bestseller, the life-changing magic of tidying up by Marie Kondo, a Japanese organizational guru.

Starting point is 00:08:42 And I didn't really think I needed it because I'm a very neat and tidy and organized person, but I wanted to see what it was all about because it was kind of a phenomenon. And when I read it, it occurred to me that she was, doing for your physical space what I had been doing for my mind, clearing it out, organizing what was left, you know, and going forward in a much calmer, more peaceful, more productive state. So, you know, anybody who's read that book and there are millions of them around the world knows what I'm talking about. And so her, you know, her thing is physical decluttering. And so I thought to myself, what about mental decluttering? And,

Starting point is 00:09:25 A great title for that book would be the life-changing magic of not giving a fuck. And then I go on to explain in the book very clearly what I mean about that and how it's not just this sort of colloquial expression that indicates you don't care about something. But really it's about deciding what really matters to you and what doesn't and then taking the things that don't and ceasing to spend your resources on them. And I define those as your time, energy, or money or some combination of the three. Yeah, the work's fascinating. I know it's done really well. I've had multiple people come to me, Sarah, asking for you to be on the show. I know I told you that.

Starting point is 00:10:06 And whenever that's the case, obviously, I try to make it happen. I think the world is full of, and I certainly would probably be in this bucket, and you probably, I don't know, I wonder if you still battle with this. I'm guessing you do. Of, I don't know, for lack of a better term, it's people pleasing. Oh, yes. And a lot of us, you know, fall into this, we think about it and we act on that on a regular basis, even though we know sometimes it's hurting ourselves. And how can we as leaders, the people listening and myself, embrace saying no or embrace getting the people pleasing out of our mind?

Starting point is 00:10:53 Well, there are a couple of different sort of tributaries of this answer. So bear with me and let me know if you want me to sort of refocus it. But the first one is in my book I talk about how, you know, what I have is called the not sorry method. And it's obviously a riff on Marie Kondo's Konmari method. It's a two-step method. Decide what you don't give a fuck about. Stop giving fucks to those things. And then if you do that with a combination of honesty and poland,

Starting point is 00:11:23 lightness, which is something that I advocate very strongly, you will be not sorry because you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to apologize for, and you've not been an asshole. So this is sort of my philosophy in a nutshell. But what I also say is really the precursor to practicing the not sorry method is to stop giving a fuck about what other people think. And that's really what you're getting at when you talk about being a people pleaser and wanting to do the things for other people to the detriment of spending your or overspending or overdrawing your time, energy, and money. And so when I talk about not giving a fuck what other people think, I really mean that you cannot spend your time, energy, and money on things you can't control.

Starting point is 00:12:09 And you can't control what other people think of you. All you can control is your behavior. So be honest, be polite, don't be an asshole, do what you want. And that's really all you can do in the situation because there are going to be people who don't like you or don't respect you or don't agree with your decisions no matter what. It could just be because you remind them of somebody they don't like. It could be because you got a job that they wanted and they didn't get. And as I said, you know, all you can do is really control your own behavior. The other aspect of your question about people pleasing and sort of where this conversation tends to go when I talk about it on the radio or on podcasts.

Starting point is 00:12:50 is people say, well, that sounds really selfish. You know, aren't you just being very selfish? And I think that selfish has become a four-letter word in our society and that it doesn't have to be. And that if you are acting selfishly in the sense that you are protecting your time, energy, and money to save it for the things that you really care about, then you are going to be a less frazzled person. You are going to be in a better mood.

Starting point is 00:13:18 You're going to be a nicer colleague. You're going to be a more understanding boss. You know, you're going to be a less busy parent or less distracted spouse. And so I think it's really important that in as much as it's great to be kind to other people and to do for other people and to volunteer your time and energy and money. If you don't take care of yourself first and be selfish, if that's, you know, I don't think of it as a derogatory term, then you're not going to be much of a, much of a, you know, bonus in other people's lives. You're going to be kind of cranky and, you know, distracted and busy and sad and broke. So that's really, you know, the sort of range of response that I have to that question.

Starting point is 00:14:05 I think an offshoot of that, too, and I've heard this personally from people that I trust as good mentors sometimes. Not everyone agrees with this, but people have almost career checklist. and as they progress and they get older, they have certain boxes they want to check. Maybe they want to progress within a company or companies. And you know, you hear of people wanting certain title levels by certain ages, you know. And it always really bothered me when I got that advice because I don't really view the world in that way. I can't stand the titles. I care me personally from a career perspective care about, you know, I'm obviously really into leading, into learning and to improving constantly as.

Starting point is 00:14:47 as a, you know, as a husband, as a dad, as a leader in business, for other people, specifically. So I think whatever title comes with it, it's just whatever. So it bothers me. So I'm curious, Sarah, for you to maybe go a little bit deeper when it comes to the people. And maybe you were like this. You're Harvard-educated, going right up the career track, right, right up the ladder, quickly. You were on this path that a lot of people think that is the right way to go about life. in general, and you're probably making good money and everything that goes along with it.

Starting point is 00:15:19 So how do you, when you talk to people who seem to be on, have that checklist type career path and thoughts, and maybe they come to you for advice, what do you tell them? Well, I have a lot of young people in publishing who do come to me for advice and sort of always have, even as I was, you know, when I was in my early 20s and mid-20s and late 20s and now I'm in my late 30s. And I think that was because I give off a little bit of a mentor vibe and I'm always trying to just help people avoid making the same mistakes that I did. And, you know, I think it's really important. You know, you see somebody messing up and you say, hey, don't do that. It's going to be better if you don't do that anymore.

Starting point is 00:16:02 So I have had particularly in publishing people say, you know, how did you get, that associate editor job? How did you move up to that senior editor job? And am I too old? And is, is it too late? And what I would say is I have perhaps a cynical view of this at this point, although I don't think it's an inaccurate view. And it was born out when I was talking to a young friend of mine the other day, who's about 25. And, you know, he was expressing dissatisfaction with his job, which is in magazine publishing and that he felt like he had sort of done everything he could at this level, but there was no basically his company believes in sort of diminishing the kind of top level and executive level spots and therefore paying less for a bunch of low-salaried employees to kind of figure it out on their own

Starting point is 00:17:00 without a management team. And he was, you know, he was lamenting this and should I try to go somewhere else? should I try to go back to grad school? And he said, you know, I just, I feel like it's not going to be different anywhere else. And I said, it's not. You know, and I felt sort of bad. I said, I'm not sure if it's good for you to realize this now or if it would have been nice for you to operate for another 10 years in the sort of hopeful, optimistic vein that, like,

Starting point is 00:17:28 if you just moved somewhere else or if you just got that higher, you know, that higher title, that things would get better. It's just the world we live in. and it's not ideal, and I don't put a lot of stock in those things that you were talking about anymore, like, you know, sort of titles on business cards. But I did when I was younger. I really thought, you know, I didn't have a, I didn't have like sort of an age. Like, I have to do this by this age and I have to do that.

Starting point is 00:17:55 But in publishing, you know, in editorial, it's very clear. You start as an editorial assistant, then you get promoted to assistant editor, then you get promoted to associate editor, then editor, then senior editor. Then it's, you know, maybe they had VP to your title and, you know, and so on. And so I did measure my career in those terms because those were the terms, the established terms. But I began to suspect quite a while ago, and those suspicions were confirmed, you know, as I left the industry. And as I've talked to more and more people actually who have quit their jobs in part because of reading my book or reading some of the articles that I've put out about this experience that, you know, it's the same

Starting point is 00:18:37 everywhere. It's just never going to get different. So you have to figure out a way within yourself to decide, A, that you care about it, B, that you don't. And, you know, sort of as as you were saying, you can just decide that it's not important to you and you try to live your life in a different way. But I do have a bit of a cynical point of view at this point around corporate corporate structure, shall we say? What do you say to people who work in that environment? They don't hate it. It's like it seemed you did.

Starting point is 00:19:11 They don't love it, but they're somewhere in between that spectrum, which based on emails I get is very common. And you know that I'm sure. So they're not like, they don't dread it. They're actually, you know, maybe they work with some people they like. They become friends. So they're like, oh, it's cool. But they're certainly not in love with it.

Starting point is 00:19:28 And it pays the bills and they have a spouse and kids and car payments and a more. mortgage and everything that goes along with it, what do you say to those types? I think it depends on whether it's, so if you hate it, get out, right? But if you just are sort of going along, as you said, and you neither love nor hate it, the real question is, is there something else you would love more? So, yeah, I've written a new book, and it's coming out in late December, and it's called Get Your Shit Together. And it's sort of an extension of the mental decluttering where you've stopped giving a fuck

Starting point is 00:20:02 about things and then you start organizing what you have left and really going after it. And I call it, you know, winning at the game of life. And one of the things that I talk about in that book is the power of negative thinking. And the way to light a fire under yourself is to really be honest with yourself about how bad your life is. And if it's not bad, don't go making grand sweeping change just for the sake of it. I don't think that that's something, I don't think people need to quit their job and move to a tropical island like I did, just for the hell of it, you know, just to, sort of buck the status quo. But if you really are unhappy, then that can be fueled to make a big change. And if you're not really unhappy and, you know, maybe you don't love it, but there's nothing

Starting point is 00:20:45 else that you think would make you happier, then look at other things in your life. You know, is there something you could be doing to improve your downtime, your creative life, your family life? You know, I don't think that jobs have to be the end all and be all of our worlds. And I think certainly in the United States, they tend to be. I've talked with a lot of podcasts and radio and journalists in other countries while I was promoting the life-changing magic of not giving a fuck. And I think our culture in America is so much more focused on what do you do for a living. And that's something that I had a hard time sort of working my way around when I first started wanting to leave my job, I was very conflicted because I was like, you can't quit.

Starting point is 00:21:34 You're not a quitter. You know, you had this career and you're just going to throw it away. This is something other people would kill for. But, you know, I came to the conclusion that it wasn't making me happy. In fact, it was making me so unhappy that I had to get my shit together and make a change. And you moved to the Dominican Republic with your husband. Talk to me about making. That's a pretty big change from being in New York.

Starting point is 00:21:56 How did you guys come to that? Yeah. I mean, you know, going to make the big life changes, make them all at once. Basically, you know, my husband and I had always been of a similar mind that, you know, we love the warm weather and the beaches and the tropics and a kind of slower-paced way of life, sort of the opposite of New York City. But both of us had needed to be in New York City for our careers and, you know, and then you establish your life here and you have all these great friends. And, you know, it's really hard to imagine just striking out on your own. own into a foreign country and a place where you don't know anyone. But we also don't have kids and we're not having them. So we had sort of known that at some point, you know, the majority of

Starting point is 00:22:43 our friends would have kids and that life would change. And, you know, we wouldn't see as much of them. And, you know, particularly in New York, it's hard enough to, you know, get together with people that you love once a month because everybody's so busy. So once, you know, once, you know, families entered the equation, we sort of thought, well, maybe we'll consider leaving New York, but, you know, my career, I can really only do that here. So once I had become okay, sort of psychologically, with leaving my job, that was really the catalyst for, well, maybe it's time to leave New York because, you know, our prediction that we would see a lot less of our friends with kids had come true and we felt like, you know, if there was a time to make a break, it might as well

Starting point is 00:23:31 be the time when, you know, I was, again, making another big life change. So we, we started looking around for places that were warm and had a low cost of living and decent access to health care and were relatively protected from hurricanes. My husband being from New Orleans, so he's very familiar with dealing with storms of that nature. And, you know, we had a check list of what we were looking for and the Dominican Republic was really high up on it, as was Panama. And then we visited this town in the DR and we just fell in love. And so we started planning how we were going to make it happen. And it was, it was complicated and it was, you know, a really long process. We built a house with a, you know, with a builder from scratch. So it took about a year

Starting point is 00:24:19 and a half. And we applied for lots of different creative loans because it's, you can't just go down to the DR and like get a mortgage. That's not how that works. So, you know, so people, I think sometimes when I talk about this stuff or when I write about it and I only have, you know, 900 words to make a point, it can come across as kind of out of reach for, quote, the average person. but we're average people and we made it work, you know, and we just, it was a lot of sort of intense planning and execution and time. And I talk about that in my new book too about breaking everything into small manageable chunks, you know, and just going after one chunk at a time and then suddenly you're sitting there on your lounge chair, under a palm tree, and all is right with the world.

Starting point is 00:25:14 Wow. When we talk about prioritization, how maybe are there, I'd be curious to learn your process for doing this. How do you prioritize what is truly important to you and maybe this could help others do the same? That is a great question because I have just a whole huge section in the new book on this. Basically, you know, the first, the first barometer is, you know, do I give a fuck about something, a.k.a. do I care about it? And then beyond that, you take the things that you have left, all of those fucks that you do give, and the process of getting your shit together, I have something that I call the must-do method. And so what I do, and this is how I've lived my life forever, and maybe this is news to some people, or maybe they think it's really overkill, but it works for me, and I think it would work for other people if they tried it. I just keep a running to-do list, right? So some of it is, you know, is just little, like, day-to-day sort of

Starting point is 00:26:19 crap that I have to do that it's not necessarily stuff I want to do, but I have to do it. And then some of it is sort of larger goals. And I always keep that list. And then I, each night before I go to bed, I look at it and I prioritize what I really need to get done first. And some of it is like, well, we're applying for residency in the Dominican Republic. And it takes three weeks after you visit the consulate to get your documents, you know, notarized. So we have to make that appointment tomorrow because it's going to take three weeks to get it done. And some of it is like, oh, I need to buy a birthday present for my mom, but her birthday is in a month and I could buy it and have it delivered in three days. So that's not as important. So prioritizing in terms of time,

Starting point is 00:27:04 time needed to complete tasks. And then I look at the things that actually need to get done today. And those are the must-do. And I only do those things. And it's a way of taking this potentially very, you know, sort of overwhelming list of things that you want to get done. It could be seeing people. You know, there's, it's like, oh, I need to make a date with my friend Dave and I need to make a date with my friend Bridget. And that goes on the list. And then once you narrow it down and look at what has to get done today, those are the small manageable chunks and do those things.

Starting point is 00:27:39 And that can take a to-do list from 15 or 20 things down to three or four. And so that's how I prioritize. And again, it's a little bit old-fashioned because I write it down on a piece of paper. But I'm confronted with it every day. And every time something drops off the list, the things that were just behind it in the priority level, come back on for the next day. So it's sort of just a constant cycle of getting shit done. And it really helps move you forward. reminds me of David Allen's work.

Starting point is 00:28:07 I've talked to him on this podcast about that. Another guest that I've, some of his work reminds me at least a little bit as a parallel to what you write about Sarah. I sent you this note, but it was late last night. So I'm not sure if you even got a chance to see it. Oh, yeah, no, I saw it. So Tim Urban, do you know Tim at all? I've actually been sent his TED talk before. Okay, okay.

Starting point is 00:28:31 So his TED talk's incredible. He was on episode number 117 here. It was one of my favorite episodes just because I love the way Tim thinks. And he writes at wait but why.com. And the article that I'm referring to now is called Taming the Mammoth, Why You Should Stop Caring What Other People Think. And every one of Tim's posts are heavily researched deep, deep dives in the topic. And this one, he does a good job of explaining specifically why we all care so much.

Starting point is 00:29:02 much about what other people think. And this is because, and I'll obviously paraphrase it heavily, it's based upon the history of human beings and survival. He calls it the social survival mammoth. Basically, in order to survive within tribes, this is obviously many, many, many years ago. You had to, in order to have your name or your familyhood survive, you had to fit in with tribes of people. And if they didn't, if you did not fit in with the tribe, you're left out to wander and eventually die. You're not going to have anyone to mate with. You're not going to continue your family. And these are all very important things. And so it's been developed literally over time for us to truly care about what others think so that we're not left outside of the

Starting point is 00:29:48 tribe. And it's hard for us to overcome the mammoth. And so when I saw this and I saw your work, I love when I see two different really smart people and some of the comparisons I can make between them, especially when I get to talk to both of them, like, on this podcast. And so I don't know if you had a chance to look through it, but it's, it really impressed me. And also, I like the fact that you guys both look at this from your specific angles. I wanted to get your thoughts on it. Well, I did look at it very late last night. And, you know, what I think I have the, the privilege of being able to say is, you know, mammoths are extinct. And I think that, you know, we live at least, you know, myself, my readers, the

Starting point is 00:30:33 developed world. You know, we live in a society that does not depend so greatly or necessarily at all on, you know, survival in the face of other people's opinions. And he's absolutely right that, you know, that's an evolutionary instinct. And it served our ancestors. What does he call it? your great-grandfather to the 200-hour. To the 2000. You know, it served us really well for a time. And I think that, you know, a lot of what I talk about in both of my books is getting yourself out of this mental zone of what you should do, what you should think, meaning what other

Starting point is 00:31:14 people, society, culture, your family, your friends tell you should want out of life or how you should behave and really focusing again on, you know, controlling your own behavior with an eye toward being a good person and not necessarily about quote unquote fitting in with the crowd or going with the flow because we are not, and again, I'm talking generally in, you know, developed civilized society. We're not in danger of being, you know, stoned in the streets and then left out, you know, to die of exposure while the tribe moves on. And so, you know, there are certainly parallels that you could still draw if you wanted to, you know, if you wanted to write that essay.

Starting point is 00:32:01 But what my writing is about is really, you know, mammoths are extinct and so is that, so can be that way of thinking. And we're all lucky to live in a time where it is more possible every day to be your own self and think independently and make decisions based on, you know, how beneficial they are to you or to your family. You know, again, I don't have kids, so I'm not, I don't have to reckon every day with making decisions that, you know, that will shape the lives of my descendants. But as I said earlier, I think that even in those cases, it pays in many instances to be selfish because it puts you in a better frame of mind and makes you a more calm. pleasant, peaceful, happy, tolerant person, which certainly trickles down to how, you know, your children grow up and how, you know, how they view you and what your relationship is like. So, so, you know, I think that I did find his article really fascinating and his TED talk. I'm doing my own TED Talk, not in Vancouver, but one of the TEDx regional talks in Miami in March. So maybe we'll do a side-by-side comparison after. I love it.

Starting point is 00:33:18 I love it. After we get that video. Well, thinking about it, I wanted to ask you, I guess, a follow-up because I think what you said makes so much sense. And as Tim talks about, you have to find your authentic voice and just follow it and go with it. And I agree. However, when we go out into the world and we analyze maybe everyone around us and

Starting point is 00:33:40 including ourselves, maybe let's take it back to when you were working at your full-time like corporate job, not what you're doing now. What percentage of people do you feel lived truly through their authentic voice? They did not, they just did not care what others thought. Like, what percent? Of my colleagues, you mean? Yeah. Yeah, of your colleagues. Well, none of them except me. Yeah. And, you know, I think that was something that really came to pass after I left, you know, because I was the kind of person that periodically I would say something in a meeting and people would sort of look at me like, I cannot believe you said that. Not rude, but just I can't believe you said what we're all thinking and nobody will say. And so after I left, they were like, well, you always were just, you know, doing your own thing. But yeah, I think that the vast majority, if not all of the people that I worked with, at least at this last job, you know, maybe I could dig back into the annals of the 10 years. that came before that job and come up with a couple of people. But really, we're living, you know, a very sort of tame version of themselves.

Starting point is 00:34:57 I don't believe that all of the people I worked with are like what they were like at the office, but they were certainly presenting a much more sort of whitewashed version of themselves. Well, that's my point I think in bringing up is the fact that, and I would, you know, I think a lot of us, at times could throw ourselves, and I don't know about you, but I think a lot of people listening and myself, you could throw ourselves into that same pile of people. And so we talk about this, like, and I think you're sharing how, well, you know, the mammoth is extinct and we shouldn't feel that way. However, when you look, you know, measure the percentage of people who can literally walk in and just say what they think at all times and not care what others think, the percentage of

Starting point is 00:35:42 those people are, is literally tiny, if not zero. So the reality. of what we should do and what we should think and the way we should behave and then what people actually do is their opposites currently in most places. And I'm with you. Like I love the guys and girls who they just are them. And they're, and they, they don't apologize for it. They're going to be them. They're not bad people. They don't try to make others feel bad, but they, but they, they do them. And they speak their mind. And I think we love that. But yet it's just so, I, I'm part of the reason we love it maybe is because it's so rare. I don't know. It's interesting to me, though. Well, I think that it's, um, this is also, you know, part and parcel of why the life changing

Starting point is 00:36:27 magic of not giving a fuck has become, it's become a bestseller in every territory that it's been published. We've sold it in 17 countries. It's coming out. I'm doing a Brazilian, uh, late night show tomorrow night filming in New York, uh, to talk about this. And part of the reason is, I think the book and its message is very liberating. Because I take people step by step through what does it mean to not give a fuck about what other people think and how can you do it? And how can you do it and not worry that you are turning into a bad person? And one of the things that I say, and it sounds really, you know, facile, but it's true. And I can tell you so many people that I get fan mail every day.

Starting point is 00:37:08 I get people tweeting at me and Facebooking me and sending me direct messages. and I have just my own friends who have told me, when I say in the book, just try it. Try it once. See if it works. And if it does, you're going to get addicted to it. And, you know, it's, again, it sounds really like, you know, oversimplified. But I think the fact is that so many people don't even try to say no or to, you know, express their true feelings or to not, you know, not do something they don't want to do with people they don't want to do it with, which is,

Starting point is 00:37:45 to paraphrase the subtitle of the book. And they don't try because they have this sense of guilt. And I call it the guilt, shame, anxiety sort of vortex. And you talk yourself out of it before you've even tried. And if you just try it and you're polite and honest about your actions, you'll find that most people are like, oh, well, that's just Sarah being Sarah. Or yeah, she doesn't go to baby showers. That's cool. He sent a gift. You know, and I think that that message has been very liberating to people, and that's why the book has caught on. Because I compare myself in the sort of epilogue of the book to the little kid in the Hans Christian Anderson fairy tale, the emperor has no clothes, where, you know, the emperor has been told by his advisors and these, you know, tailors that they're spinning him a beautiful suit that's only visible to people who have intelligence. and respect, you know, and so obviously it's, you know, as the fairy tale goes, it's totally

Starting point is 00:38:48 fake and there is no suit and he ends up parading through the town naked and nobody will say anything because they don't want to be thought of as unintelligent or unworthy of his respect. And he won't admit that he can't see it. He plays along because he thinks that he has to. And finally there's this one little kid who pipes up and says, but he isn't wearing anything. and it just lets everybody else. It lets all of the other towns people go, yeah, you're right. You know, we saw it all along and we were afraid to say it because we were afraid of the consequences,

Starting point is 00:39:20 but as it turns out, there were no consequences. So that's really kind of the message that I've been putting forth. I know you're famous for not liking baby showers. What if you're, what if it's, and the reason I'm asking the question this manner is because I think people, striking the appropriate balance between really prioritizing and only doing the things that you truly care about versus maintaining friendships. And if your best friend is having a baby and they're having a baby shower and they want you there and you have deemed that that is not something that I do, how do you, how do you balance

Starting point is 00:40:06 that? How could others balance? Because I mean, I've talked to a lot of women. I don't know many who like baby showers. Maybe a very small percentage. But the overall majority of mine every time, and the ones listening to who I'm talking about, they're like, oh, God. And then they still go.

Starting point is 00:40:26 And so how do you, because they don't want to potentially mess up a friendship. So how do you balance, like, how do you stay on that line and not ruin a friendship over something that you just don't want to do? Well, I think, you know, there's a couple different answers to this question. One of them is if you are really close friends with this person and they know you and they're your friend, they will understand that this is not something that you do. However, I do think there's still pressure to do it. And I've certainly been to a few baby showers.

Starting point is 00:40:58 And, you know, when my very closest friends in the whole wide world need me to be somewhere, I am there for them. But I also think that, and I actually say this very explicitly in the book, if you turn the tables, would you want somebody to be somewhere that you knew they didn't want to be? And if the answer is yes, then you're kind of the asshole in that equation, not them. And you know, that can apply to all kinds of things. And especially when family is involved, it gets very, it gets very dicey because I think there's this entitlement that a lot of family members feel

Starting point is 00:41:38 to your presence, not just your presence, like your gifts, but your presence at occasions. And certainly in my family, well, my extended family with my in-laws, who are, many of whom are practicing Jews, though my husband is not practicing, there are a lot of religious events that, you know, our attendance is expected at. And we've, over the course, of the 17 years that I've been with my husband, you know, have kind of managed to dial that back. And now they don't expect us to be there anymore. And now we don't have, like, arguments about it every time. It's just finally, they've kind of accepted it and we've all moved on and we can hang out at other points in time that don't have to be, you know, inside a temple. But I think, you know, the same thing goes for

Starting point is 00:42:27 anything like a baby shower, wedding shower, you know, whatever it is, activity that, you know, that you really don't want to spend your time, energy, and money on. You know, you could spend a little bit of money, but no time and energy, you know, sending a gift. I always send a gift. But I do think that if they're really your friends and you're really that close, then they'll understand. But the key is to do it honestly and politely. You know, the key is not to hem and ha and wait until the last minute to say no, because that's just impolite. That's rude. Anytime somebody's inviting you to an event that, you know, they have to have enough

Starting point is 00:43:02 food and drink and space and whatever on hand for all the people, you can't just withhold your RSVP into the last minute. And you also shouldn't say yes to something that you know full well you don't want to go to. Spend a week or two sort of kicking yourself about it mentally and then wake up the morning of and pretend like you have a stomachache and not show up. That's also an asshole maneuver. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:43:23 So, you know, what I advocate for is really knowing what you want and what you don't want and establishing boundaries, setting them and, you know, and sticking to them. And eventually people realize that's just who you are. And I haven't lost any friends over it. So it's hard for me to imagine that that would be the case for other people. And if they did, you know, maybe they weren't great friends to begin. I think part of this deals with having a high level self-awareness, which you obviously do. I've also found something in my own life. I don't know why, but maybe the last year or two,

Starting point is 00:43:56 maybe this comes with maturity and growing up a little bit. When you can quickly and clearly respond to a request, typically when you're saying no, people seem to respect it, especially when you don't lie. So, for example, if they ask you say, hey, I'd love to go, you should come with me, I'd love for you to go to this concert. It's in two months we have to get tickets.

Starting point is 00:44:21 instead of being like, oh yeah, that sounds cool, man. You know, that's how most people respond. Right. Yeah, we'll work on the tickets, you know, oh, okay. And then you kind of, you know, it fades away. You say, you know what? I don't want to go. I don't like that.

Starting point is 00:44:33 I don't like that music. Nothing is you, man. And go ahead, you know, have a great time and find, I'm sure there's people who want to go. But I think, and they're like, oh, okay. Like, they're like, cool. Like, I think they respect it because you're like, no, I just don't want to go. Or maybe you actually do like it, but you don't want to go with them. You're like, no, I'm good.

Starting point is 00:44:48 I don't want to go. I think you'll be surprised people, especially who are concerned with this, and I've definitely battled with this. If you're concerned what others think, you'll be surprised at the way that people respond, it's not as bad as you think. I think they'll respect the fact that you are just very clearly and quickly responding and saying, no, I don't want to do it. And you move on.

Starting point is 00:45:11 I think that's, and certainly don't lie, though. That's the thing that really bothers me. People say, oh, I got to, we have to go to this thing with my wife. Like, that's when they're like, all right, he's lying. I think that's where you run into problems. Exactly. And I think that's, you know, something that I just, I have always been in my life, just a very honest person. And whether that's out of, you know, a great tons of integrity or out of just like, honesty is just the easiest way to fly.

Starting point is 00:45:40 You know, you don't have to keep track of any lies. You don't have to, you know, forget that you told someone you were going to be doing something. else and then you get caught on Facebook, you know, doing something completely different. Like, just say yes, no, mean what you say, say what you mean, do it in a timely fashion, and, you know, and life goes on. And, you know, the final point about the sort of baby shower situation, if you know somebody who's inviting 25 people to any party, whether it's a birthday party or a shower, you know, they're expecting five or six people not to make it. There's no reason you can't be one of us. Like, just it's okay to RSVP no to think.

Starting point is 00:46:15 Yeah. Yeah, I've said this many times. I actually forget who originally told it to me when they said it's so much easier to tell the truth because you don't have to remember anything. Exactly. It's good advice. It's very simple, but most really good advice is and it makes sense. Sarah, I know you have to run quickly and I really appreciate the fact that you invested your time with me. I have one more question. I reached out to via a cold email. And initially you saw that the host of a podcast called The Learning Leader Show wanted to talk. to you. I'm curious when you saw the phrase a learning leader, what's the first thought that came to mind? I thought that I was being legitimized by a very serious and professional podcaster. I was very pleased. I hope you still feel that way. Yeah, yeah. I sometimes get requests from shows that sound much more edgy and profane and kind of, you know, not nearly a sophistication. Whitch or what? Yeah. Yeah. No, I liked the idea of being a learning leader. I mean, I've been, you know, as you said, like I've, I've been doing the sort of, you know, the career track. And I do have an Ivy League education. I was my high school valedictorian. You know, I've been that kind of like Tracy Flick from election, like kid and young woman my whole life. And so it's nice to be recognized as being somebody who, you know, who somebody could learn from. And, and. and who could lead other people.

Starting point is 00:47:46 But it's also nice to be able to do it now from my perch as someone who's a little bit more relaxed and has a little bit of a better sense of how the world works. Well, it's really, I'm glad you brought this up. It's really important to me that this show is full of diverse leaders and learners. And if it's the same boring old white guy all the time, it just doesn't interest me. and there's plenty of those out there, and I've had, you know, a number of them on the show. But your message really spoke to me.

Starting point is 00:48:19 And, you know, I know kids listen to this. And sometimes, you know, like, I don't use bad language around my kids. But when I ask somebody to come on my show, I would never expect them to change. And I told you this before we started recording. I would never expect them to change who they are. And that's why we're not going to edit any of this.

Starting point is 00:48:35 It's going to run straight through. Some people, obviously, they have issues with it. And I get that. I'm willing to deal with that. I'm sure you deal with that. a lot, depending on who it is. But that's life. And I think for me, it's more important to speak with diverse leaders who bring great messages

Starting point is 00:48:51 out into the world that can help a lot of people. And I think this is a really important message that can help a lot of people. It was important for me to talk to you and learn directly from you. I have pages full of notes here. And a great episode, I think, for people to learn directly from a really interesting and certainly intelligent leader who I look up to people who I think have. the willingness and ability to speak out and deal with some, I'm guessing you have haters, I'm guessing you have people who don't like the language you use.

Starting point is 00:49:21 And I think that's impressive to be able to do that and say, I know I'm going to have to deal with this and I'm doing it anyway because I think it's that important. Well, thank you. I wish that I could respond to the very angry woman from Germany who sent me on the email the other time. What did it say? Google Translate showed me that she was deeply unhappy with the message. conveyed in my book and the words used, but I really, I decided I did not give a fuck about

Starting point is 00:49:48 responding. Well, I mean, the core thing, it's not like you don't care about people. If anything, you care more about people and the fact that you're doing that way. So it's not, so like, some people might say, hey, you love to me, you love Adam Grant and being givers and helping. And I'm like, absolutely I love Adam Grant and being a giver. And I think you fall right into that category as well. Your message doesn't have to be written the exact same way that Hiss is, you know?

Starting point is 00:50:11 Well, thank you very much for giving me some time and space to spread the word. And I'll look forward to hearing it when it's online. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Sarah. I really appreciate it. Okay. Thank you too. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time.

Starting point is 00:50:31 Head over to Learning Leadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on The Learning Leader Show.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 172: Sarah Knight - The Life Changing Magic Of...

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