The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 173: Jon Levy - The Science Of Adventure (The 2 AM Principle)

Starting point is 00:00:00 Your legs are jello and you're trying to climb up and you're freaking out because if you slip, you're like totally screwed. You finally make it to the top. And of course, it's like a group of Australians who are drinking, smoking cigarettes because the Australians are always the craziest ones in any travel scenario. And you sit there and you see the most beautiful view and you feel like you've really earned it because there was that sense of risk and excitement associated to getting there. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk.

Starting point is 00:00:58 Hey and welcome to The Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. And thank you so much to the members of the Learning Leader community, our Facebook group. I love for all of you to join us further to dial. maybe argue a little bit. It's been so much fun over the last few months having these conversations. Go to learning leader.com slash group. Learningleader.com slash group to join us. I'd love to have you. Tonight's episode with the incredibly interesting John Levy. He's a behavioral scientist who studies

Starting point is 00:01:29 influence and adventure. He's the founder of the influencers. A private community comprise over 800 thought leaders from around the world. Olympians, members of royalty, celebrity, scientists, musicians, executives, incredible. A few of the topics we got into. Why routine is the enemy of excitement. Then how to travel the world on a limited budget. John shares how he did this exactly. And then the epic, EPIC, the epic model of adventure.

Starting point is 00:02:01 This is discussed in John's newest book titled The 2 AM Principle, Discover the Science of Adventure. Ladies and gentlemen, you're going to love this one with John Levy. John Levy, man. Welcome back for round two on the Learning Leaders Show, man. Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here. I had so much fun the first time that when you said I could come back, I was jumping at the chance. Well, it's so interesting. We were just talking about before we started recording that what has happened since the first time. You were episode 16. They were up past 170 now, year and a half later. Holy cow, congratulations. Yeah, it's nuts to see what's happened. And I've been following you, obviously.

Starting point is 00:02:49 the crazy, incredible life that you lead, the travels from all over the world. So I became a big fan of you, obviously, after we spoke the first time. And so it's interesting. I love, you know, you have a great new book coming out called The 2 AM Principal on Election Day of all days, which is incredible. But I just wanted to dive into it and kind of catch up briefly to say, you know, what's going on now? We're in this book launch stage. Last time we talked, you were just briefly mentioned at the very end saying, hey, I'm trying to put this book together. It won't be out for a while. And now here we are about 18 months later. And it's on the verge of coming out. Yeah, well, let me catch up on everything. Yeah, please do. Last time I was on, we were talking

Starting point is 00:03:38 about the influencers dinner. So for you listeners who haven't, didn't hear that episode, about seven years ago, I started a secret dining experience. I'm a human behavior scientist. So I study influence, what causes us to make the decisions that we make and how to affect them. I study influencers. And then I also study the science of adventure, what causes us to live fun, exciting lives. And so on the influencer side, I started the secret dining experience about seven years ago where 12 people are invited at a time. None of them know each other. And they're not allowed to talk about what they do or even give their last name. They cook dinner together. And when they sit down to eat, but he gets to guess what everybody else does.

Starting point is 00:04:16 And they find out that it's a famous author sitting across from a Nobel laureate, the president of a television network sitting across from the editor-in-chief of a magazine, and two-time Olympic gold medalists sitting across from a celebrity. And so I've hosted now over 800 and some odd people. We're about to do our 100th dinner coming up next month. And so the community is thriving. The salons that we host, which are these cultural events with three famous speakers and often a musical act, I've just been getting more and more exciting and getting to host

Starting point is 00:04:51 some of the top-tier talent in our culture. And we're looking at expanding now further international. So we're in eight cities, two countries, and we're looking at adding our third country in the next few months. And so things have just been phenomenal. And just like such a pleasure and such a humbling experience hosting these people, because it's really tough to have a big ego when the person to your left won the Nobel Prize and the person to your right is sold a million copies of a book.

Starting point is 00:05:21 And you're like, what have I accomplished this week? So that was super cool. And then on the adventure side, yeah, well, you know, every year I do these crazy travel projects. So 2013, I went every month the biggest event in the world wherever it was. At 2014, I spent a month and a half switching cities every three days, which was exhausting. And then this past year, I went to all seven continents. So in eight months, I was everywhere from Adisababa, Ethiopia in Africa to brown base on the peninsula of Antarctica. And Antarctica, I went swimming and set my trips polar swim record.

Starting point is 00:06:01 And so I was in the water way, way, way too long in zero degree water. So, and now the book's coming out, which is crazy, especially because I'm dyslexic. I was going to say, I know we talked briefly about that last time in the pictures, by the way, from Antarctica. I mean, there are so many good ones. I think you're a great person to follow from a social media perspective because I think people who, let's jump right into it actually now. Because you say routine is the enemy of excitement. And the reason why I wanted to bring this quote up first from your book is because I've had people on here. I think of guys like James Clear or other interesting writers who talk about the importance of creating routines when it comes to habits, right?

Starting point is 00:06:49 So to be more productive. And so when you say routine is an enemy of excitement, I love for you to expand on that. Maybe share a story as to how you live your life that way, specifically when it comes to your travel. and the adventures that you go on. So I do want to separate two ideas that have a tough time interacting effectively with each other. One is it's really hard to be constantly spontaneous and very productive. Like you need a particular kind of job or career path in order to make that happen.

Starting point is 00:07:25 You can't be like a rock star and just be purely spontaneous because you have to go on tour at some point or you have to record. And there's very clear habits that lead to people's productivity and success. So when I'm home, I have a clear routine. I wake up, first thing in the morning, I get my most important tasks done. I try to set no appointments for the morning because that's my most creative and productive time. We've found from a research perspective that as you go through your day, we have a limited ability to make decisions and to focus. And so you want your best decisions and your most important focus on the most important tasks first thing in the morning. And you can have like this incredibly wonderfully productive experience. You can enter flow state,

Starting point is 00:08:17 which for those of you who don't know the idea, it's research about peak human performance and it occurs under specific conditions. And that is absolutely possible with a routine. But it's very different to have that and to experience novelty and excitement. And if you want to have an exciting life, you need to be willing to go outside of your comfort zone. And to do that, you have to break your routine. or you have to schedule as part of your routine to get outside of your comfort zone, which is totally fine too. Some people refer to it as scheduled spontaneity.

Starting point is 00:09:03 And the reason is that if you look at any great adventure, or actually let's take it from a different perspective, let's take it from a neurological perspective, your brain fundamentally responds to novelty, that when something is different, your brain responds by developing a desire to understand it. I guess the theory is that if you're alive right now and you understand your environment, you're going to continue to be alive. But if you're posed with something unfamiliar, then you're at risk. So your brain rewards you for understanding it. That way you can continue to put yourself in a space that's safe.

Starting point is 00:09:44 And so we can take advantage of that character. characteristic by putting ourselves in exciting and novel environments and our brain will respond in a way that rewards us. So that's what I mean by excitement is the enemy. Sorry, routine is the enemy of excitement. Sure, you can be productive and great and that's important in life. And it's also really important to push our boundaries and explore and experience excitement and novelty because that's what makes a life less ordinary. And so part of getting outside of your comfort zone, outside of the routine, and specifically when it comes to travel. So, John, I want to immediately think of the types of listeners that we have.

Starting point is 00:10:27 And this, you know, I'm probably in this bucket too. So let's think of people who, because I think right now you still are single without kids. Is that correct? Absolutely. So you are in probably a better situation to live this type of lifestyle than some people listening. correct. That's without a doubt. But in terms of in terms of the extent that I do this, it would be difficult and probably highly irresponsible for somebody who has, like I was crushed by a bull in Pamplona and almost died. Yeah. Right. During running of the bulls. I mean,

Starting point is 00:11:01 there's certain activities that, that we, it's important to separate perceived risk from actual peril. And I think to understand what an adventure is, I had to even create a definition because I didn't find one that I was satisfied with. And so the way I define it is it's one, an experience that's exciting and remarkable. It's remarkable. It's worth talking about because as a species, we pass down our knowledge through an oral history. Two, possesses adversity and or risk. Now, preferably perceived risk, right? there's a difference between climbing at Everest, which a very high percentage of people die from.

Starting point is 00:11:44 I think it's like 3% or something, which is insanity. And going bungee jumping, which, or skydiving, it's insanely safe. Like, nobody gets hurt. I heard a rumor that I never looked this up, but I heard that it's, you're more likely to die or get injured being a cheerleader. than you are skydiving. Wow. Okay. I guess it's all those high tosses and everything.

Starting point is 00:12:13 Yeah. But the point is that we can experience the ability to overcome a challenge without having to put ourselves in direct danger. And that's especially if you have kids and you're married and you have responsibilities to people, I'd much more recommend that. And then the third is it brings about growth. The person you are at the end is distinct from the person who started. And so I, to the extreme level that I do these things, yeah, it would probably be irresponsible to some degree to be caring for a family.

Starting point is 00:12:55 But that's also a personal choice. But the concept and the methodology can be applied by anybody at any time, whether that's a day in going hiking with your family or, you've met that special someone and you want to take them out on the most amazing date of their life to I graduated from college. I'm going to go backpack through Europe and here's, I'm going to use all these techniques to make friends and have these outrageous experiences. Because ultimately, much of what I talk about in the book is about the social characteristics of adventure. It's not about, you know, what's it called hellas snowboarding or whatever it is where a helicopter drops you on the top of a mountain. It's more stuff like, okay, I'm in a foreign city. And I did that

Starting point is 00:13:42 for a series. I went to a foreign city or foreign environment because it lends itself more to an adventurous experience. Now what? Now, how do I connect with people? How do I have fun? How do I make it an epic night out or weekend or I want to design the perfect bachelor or bachelor's rep party. Like any one of those things, all the way through to, I have to design a corporate retreat or I want to make my office experience more exciting. Let's give some practical advice now. So let's say you are traveling to Rome.

Starting point is 00:14:16 And you are a guy who likes to travel. I know you've written by yourself. So you can explain why you like to travel by yourself. But say somebody is an introverted type of an individual, they're going to roam for the very first time. They're not quite sure what to do. They have obviously ideas because they did some research online. What are some specific tips you would give, a guy who's traveled the world, to somebody who's going to a place like that for the first time, and they're not an outgoing, gregarious type, but more of an introverted type. And you want them to have the time of their

Starting point is 00:14:52 life, to experience growth, to meet people, to develop relationships, all of that comes along with the adventures of travel. Wonderful. Well, the first thing to do is realize that, and it's really important, that just because I'm an extrovert doesn't mean it's the right way to live. And that if you're introverted or you prefer more intimate groups and settings, you can still have a really wonderfully adventurous experience with a small group. You don't have to, like, have 100 of your new closest friends by the end of the weekend.

Starting point is 00:15:25 but that doesn't give you the right to kind of get away with not getting out of your comfort zone. So it still means that there's an opportunity to open up and connect with people and so on. So let's begin with some of the basics. Let's say you know nobody. Where do you actually meet people? Well, the locals are probably going to have their routines. and if you're backpacking or traveling through a foreign city then there's a good chance they're not going to want to break their routines

Starting point is 00:15:59 unless there's something really exceptional. So there's a few options. One is come during a time when there's a festival. Because when there's these big social activities, people feel connected, or at least I've noticed they have, because you're all part of the same activity or cultural event. If that's not an option, go to the tourist locations because since tourists are there to explore and experience new things

Starting point is 00:16:27 then it gives you an opportunity to find people that have a similar interest and a desire to connect what are the options well there's anything from taking a tour and being a part of a tour group so that you have a built-in community and some people do these like you know two-week trips across something or you do yacht week and you're on a yacht with a bunch of people so you have a built-in social circle. Or you could join something like a pub crawl. Now, is it sophomoric and juvenile? Yeah, but who cares?

Starting point is 00:16:59 I've done pub crawls in like, I don't know, five or six cities just because I want to experience them. And the people tend to be really nice and just they're there because they want to connect and make friends and enjoy themselves. I've even done one in New York. It was terrible, like absolutely awful. But I pretended to be a tourist. And it was so funny for me to be a tourist.

Starting point is 00:17:20 in my own city and see these like third rate bars. By the way, if you go on a pub crawl, you're not going to the good places. Like, you just aren't. You'll have a lot of fun because of the people you're surrounded with. But it's not going to be a like the most incredible like nightclub in the city. And that's also fine because who cares as long as you're having fun. So those are the few of the basic tips. And then I think the key is an understanding that you don't need an opening line.

Starting point is 00:17:53 You don't need like something special to get the conversation going. You can literally walk up to anybody and say hello. One of the things I do like to do, though, is I like to do something called stacking favors. And what that means is that it turns out that if I ask you for a favor, you're more likely to like me. It's called the Ben Franklin effect. And the way it works is that people who are asked for favors then have to invest effort into you and your relationship. And as human beings, we value those things that we invest into. So if it's also the concept in general is also called the IKEA effect because people disproportionately like their IKEA furniture more than they should because they had to assemble it themselves.

Starting point is 00:18:44 So if I want to meet strangers, I might ask them, hey, can you do me a favor? Could you take a photo of me? Like I'm traveling all alone. I'm in this tourist location. Now they've invested a little bit of effort. Now that if I ask them to do something else, they're likely to invest even more effort into me. So I want to start with a small favor and move up. Now, what's the benefit of this?

Starting point is 00:19:08 Once I'm in a conversation with them telling them why I'm there, or I say, oh, thank you so much. I really appreciate this. I'm traveling alone and they're like, oh my God, you're traveling alone. That's crazy. And I go, yeah, you know, I'm trying to understand these characteristics about society or I'm doing research or implying these ideas. Or you could just say, hey, I'm traveling alone just to test myself or I'm so and so and I go through this. I'm traveling for these reasons. It gets them now involved in your storyline, in your experience. And you can pull them in. And then if they're cool, you can keep hanging out. out, if you're not, they'll part ways and you'll forget about each other. So it's a very low risk, high reward scenario. And I found that it works really well. As I ask for a small favor, maybe it's directions, maybe it's advice on the area. And hopefully they know more than I do. But I've gotten, ended up in situations where I'm like standing online and a museum.

Starting point is 00:20:08 And somebody did the same to me. They walk up to me, gave me a huge. huge hug, complete stranger. And she goes, just go along with this. We don't want to stand in line from the beginning. And what ended up happening was these three super cool girls from Portugal. They go, hey, now that we're inside, you should know we have a driver. He's taking us around town. Once we're done seeing the palace, you should come with us. And we ended up spending the day going to like all the top spots. And then we went and climbed the ghost tower of Bangkok. I had heard about this thing. It's a 50-something story building that was never completed in Bangkok. And there's

Starting point is 00:20:51 full-time security there. And so you bribe the security and you climb up this building that looks like it's essentially just a concrete structure. But you hike up 49 floors and you get to the top and it's this unobstructed, beautiful view of Bangkok. And then you realize that there are two additional floors that were never completed. And so you climb up this like broken piece of plastic hoping that the metal rods that are sticking out of the concrete don't pierce you. And then you get on to like the 50th floor. And to get onto the 51st floor, you have to like span a gap. And you know, it's like a, it's 50 floors down if you fall. And so your legs are jello and you're trying to climb up and you're freaking out because if you slip, you're like totally screwed. And you finally make it to

Starting point is 00:21:40 the top. And of course, it's like a group of Australians who are drinking, smoking cigarettes, because the Australians are always the craziest ones in any travel scenario. And you sit there and you see the most beautiful view and you feel like you've really earned it because there was that sense of risk and excitement associated to getting there. Wow. I get always, thinking back to our last time talking, you always bring the incredible stories. I think that's part of the fascination here with the travel with the 2 a.m. principle. You've also created like a process for this, a model for the adventure. And it's an acronym that you call the epic model of adventure. And so the E, P, I, and C all stand for something. Can you explain the epic model of adventure and what it means from each of the E, P, I, and C?

Starting point is 00:22:34 Oh, without a doubt. Okay. So, um, First of all, when I was studying all this, I had to accept the fact that adventures don't happen randomly. They're not just pure luck. Because if it was purely random, and most people think they are, then we'd all have similarly exciting lives. And so since that's not true, then I was able to model the behavior or characteristics of really exceptional experiences and found that they follow this four-stage EPIC epic model. And the first stage is actually a little counterintuitive. It's established where you put the right elements in place so that anything can happen. And the most important characteristics to establish is the people you surround yourself with, so the team you pick, because the right group of people can make a miserable experience awesome, whereas a wrong group of people can be at the greatest party in the world and make you miserable.

Starting point is 00:23:31 And a new location, because as we said, the brain operates differently in new environments. Now, that's not always an option. So if you're living in a small town and it's the same things to do every night, then what you want to deal with is setting a mission for the experience and some constraints. And the reason is that by having a mission, you have a new goal and you experience the environment in new ways. So if you are going to the same three bars over and over again, then you can create a mission to throw apart. in a unique environment, like a field, or a, or you create a scavenger hunt for you and your friends throughout the city, or you play that like trading game, right? You start off with a paperclip and keep trading with people and see how far you can go.

Starting point is 00:24:21 So by creating a mission for your experiences, then you've got something that will direct the attention of the group and bond it. And it'll also get outsiders to support you as you share your mission. Now, constraints and limiting your options actually make you more creative. And so you can say, okay, we're going to play this game, but because it's so easy, we're not allowed to talk to anybody we know and bump into. Or we're not allowed to go places we've already been. Or we're not allowed to spend any money.

Starting point is 00:24:53 And so by applying these constraints, you actually end up creating a more exciting opportunity. So that's the established stage. Okay. Now, push boundaries. you have to cross some kind of social, physical, or emotional boundary. You have to grow from the experience. So that might mean talking to strangers for some people. It might mean going skydiving.

Starting point is 00:25:15 It might mean you push boundaries by bringing two groups together that normally wouldn't hang out and seeing what happens. It could be talking your way into a nightclub or pretending to be a tourist in your own city. Because that's uncomfortable. Nobody likes to be a tourist in their own city, especially if you're like from a major city. As a New Yorker, one of the biggest insults you can give somebody is ask them if they're a tourist. And then the third stage is increase. You maximize the emotional value of the environment that you're in. You can do that through entertaining people, using surprises, intriguing them and pulling them in,

Starting point is 00:25:51 or using challenges to create a competitive and fun nature. Then the final stage is continue. In the continue stage, there's a series of characteristics that you want to pay attention. to on where to go next and how to get there. Because if you're wearing high heels or you've been drinking, then it limits the options of how to get around. You can't necessarily walk that far. If it's bad weather, you don't want to be outside very long. Or if the group just did something really risky and needs to calm down, you have to be mindful of the unpredictability of the next location or the ambiance and the activity. So those are all the characteristics of where to go next.

Starting point is 00:26:31 and if you do go somewhere, you loop back through the process. Now, if you don't, then the key is to end with style. And the reason is that human beings don't notice the duration of pleasure or pain. They notice the peaks of the experiences and how they end. And so if you let things deteriorate to a point where you're not really enjoying yourself anymore, the classic comparison is like, I end up at a piece of place, at four o'clock in the morning while my friends are like, dude, we still go. I want to go meet some girls.

Starting point is 00:27:06 Like, it's just not going to happen. Just go home. At that point, you've let the evening deteriorate. And so you'll end it on a worse note and remember it less fondly in the future. Not only that, but you'll also be really tired the next day and regret being out so late. So the title of the book is the 2 a.m. principle because nothing good happens after 2 a.m. accept the most epic experiences of our life. And epic is established, push boundaries, increase, continue.

Starting point is 00:27:38 I think I love the way that you brought that all together. I even think of, I don't know why, because you mentioned that you gave a great keynote recently. And when giving a keynote speech, I think part of the importance of it, depending on how long it is, but regardless of length, is ending it on a high note. Is that something that you employ when you go around the country or the world giving keynotes as well? I employ it on everything, to be honest. That's everything from talks to the way I say goodbye to people.

Starting point is 00:28:14 I try to keep meeting lengths not too long so that we don't deteriorate and lose energy because then we're going to feel like the meeting was less productive. And it's just one of these quirks of human behavior. And so I really, try to employ it any time I can. How do you say goodbye to people? I love people, so I hate doing it. But there's a few different techniques I use.

Starting point is 00:28:44 One is if it's somebody I don't really want to talk to, I shake their hand and excuse myself, make eye contact, and then walk away because I have to take care of something, do something. But I always believe in being polite and courteous. Because there's no benefit to being a jerk. I've never found a single scenario where being difficult with people has paid off in any way, shape, or form. And I think that just because you may not connect well with somebody doesn't mean that they're not a good person. There's plenty of people that I have a deep respect for, that we have a bit of an awkward relationship.

Starting point is 00:29:26 And that's fine because not everybody is always able to connect. And then how do I say goodbye to everybody else? It's a bit of a tough question. I know thousands and thousands of people. I just review for all the invitations for my book launch events. And I had a list of over 8,000 people. Wow. And so, you know, sometimes I don't say goodbye to people.

Starting point is 00:29:54 Like, what's it called? Like an Irish goodbye or something of that? where you just leave yeah because you know I try to say goodbye but at events it's there's so many people vying for the host's attention it just doesn't make sense and often you can't find him so you do what you can but I think the more important thing is that people always know you have the best of intentions and considerations one of the topics that's come up before on this I think of clay Aberry is a great become a great friend of mine now where we talked about how to introduce yourself to people and so you're constantly meeting new people.

Starting point is 00:30:30 When you're having dinners, it's probably a little different, obviously, because everybody already knows who you are, so you're not really in this formal introduction. You're just kind of, you just say hello and talk, I'm assuming. But when you do meet somebody for the first time who doesn't know who you are, and let's say you're not abroad in some crazy country, but you're here in the States, how do you introduce yourself? When they ask you what you do at the dinner parties, how do you, how does that, what do you say? Well, at the dinner parties, we're not allowed to talk about what we do or even give our last names.

Starting point is 00:31:00 So there's no conversation about that. Right. But let's say I'm at a conference. I believe in constantly changing the way you describe what you do. Okay. One, for your own sake, so that you're not just bored repeating the same wrote statement. And two, because you can refine it, say it faster, say it more clearly, and say it more interesting ways. I like to use what's called information gap theory, develop.

Starting point is 00:31:26 George Lowenstein. He's a scientist. It's not like he's a professional network or something that. And he discovered or suggested that curiosity is more like a itch that needs to be scratched. And the way that you create the itch is you present people with information that's, that there's a gap between their current knowledge and what you're presenting them. As a byproduct, the brain will want to fill in the gap. If the gap is too big, it's daunting. scary. Like I talk about some really obscure concept in plastic molding. You're like, okay, I don't really care. If it's too familiar, like I update you on the score of the game, there's no curiosity. But let's say, why don't you ask me what I do? Or where I'm from. Hey, John. Where are you from?

Starting point is 00:32:16 I'm from a small island in the northeast of the U.S. Really? Which one? It's called Manhattan. Have you heard of it? I have. I have. Yeah, so I spend about a little bit more than half my time there, and then I travel around for work. And now if you had asked me what I do for a living, or whatever, if I want to be playful, I say, I spend most of my life convincing people to cook me dinner. What does that mean? About seven years ago, I started a kind of secret dining experience, like a supper club. It's a side project that I'm really passionate about because I bring kind of top thought leaders from industries to cook dinner together, but the catch is that they're not allowed to talk about what they do or give their last name. And then when they sit down to eat, they get to

Starting point is 00:33:01 guess what everybody does and they find out that it's, you know, so and so. And I give some examples and they're like, oh my God, that's so cool. Or they go, oh, yeah, I think I read about it in the New York Times. Or I just leave that whole thing out because I don't want people getting caught up with wanting to access my network. And I'll say, oh, I'm a scientist. And they go, oh, cool. Neither that stops the conversation. completely. Or they go, oh, cool, what do you study? And I go, well, it depends on how playful I want to be. So I either tell them I study the science of adventure or I study influence. And then we get into it. So because I spend my life kind of doing three different things, I kind of pick and

Starting point is 00:33:41 choose. It can be a little overwhelming when I tell people about all of them because they're like, I don't know how to peg this guy into a hole. But I like to be playful with it because then they know that they're not going to have the standard conversation. The other big thing I do is that any transitional statement I try to use as an opportunity to bring in a story I tell well. And a story that's socially appropriate, right? It's not going to be some story that like kids couldn't hear. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:34:12 About my latest trip or about something fascinating I read. You know, you don't have to have the most exciting life. can also just share things that other people are doing that people will find interesting. Anything from cancer research to, you know, an art project that's taking place in Los Angeles. Yeah. One more question, John, before we get going, I'm thinking of maybe some part of the younger demographic who's listening to this show right now, who is single with no kids and very little responsibility.

Starting point is 00:34:44 And they're like, you know what, I want to live a life like John Levy does. I still can do it now before I get all these responsibilities. But the one question they might be asking is, how do you get the money to do these crazy things, these incredible dinners, travel the world? Because they know that part of the time, you have to fund it some way and somehow, and I am guessing that those are questions I get every once in a while when I talk to someone who lives in extraordinary life.

Starting point is 00:35:11 Like, well, wait a minute. Where are they, how are they paying for this? I think it's a practical question, but still a good one. So the answer is I in my 20s I wasn't traveling in a very luxurious way. So what does that mean? I was I would sometimes trade people on their miles. I'd be like, hey, I know you want a website. I know you want whatever it is.

Starting point is 00:35:39 And I'd say, can I get your, you probably have like adults tend to have huge amounts of miles that they ever use. They just amassed them. And so you can see if you can barter or even have them gift them to you and travel on those miles. The other thing is, I crash often. I spend, I don't know, I have four or five days in L.A. every month. And I have never needed to get a hotel room. And that's because I couch surf at my friends' places. I don't need very much. Like, I don't need very much. Like, I'm happy sleeping on a couch. I'm not picky about food as long as it fits in my dietary requirements. Like I'll eat the same thing three, four days in a row, three, four, five meals in a row.

Starting point is 00:36:30 So what I think the important thing to realize is that living an adventurous life doesn't have to cost very much money. Yeah, there's probably like some minimum amount of money to get somewhere. But there's countless adventures probably within a few miles of where you live that you could, create or activities that you can create with your friends. Hiking doesn't cost any money. Like camping out doesn't cost much money. Maybe you need a permit for, you know, from the park, but you can go and do really fun things and create games and out of it that's extraordinary. Or maybe that's the game, right? Maybe it's the constraint that you have no money, that it's how far can I get and back with $20.

Starting point is 00:37:15 Yeah. Now, it's a great way to end it and fantastic advice. Where would you send my listeners to learn more about you online, John? my website is john levy t lb j-on-l-e-v-y-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-ttall-old-old-old-old-l-l-hhack-hall-old-old-old-old-old and i'd love it if you'd love it if you'd pick up a book, it'll really outline just incredibly interesting ways to have fun and

Starting point is 00:38:03 the stories are crazy. Everything from battling Kiefer Sutherland and Junkin Jenga to one point I'm at duty free in Stockholm airport and within 10 seconds of talking to the girl behind the duty free counter, she leaves

Starting point is 00:38:19 her job to travel with me. So it's it's a lot of fun and crazy stories. And I think you guys would love it. And so please pick up a copy and also feel free to be in touch. Yeah, the 2 AM principle, discover the science of adventure. John, thanks so much for coming back for round two.

Starting point is 00:38:41 And I can promise this hopefully will not be the last time we do. We'll keep these recordings going because you always have the interesting stories and updates. And I'm fascinated by the life that you lead, man. Absolutely. And I'm just going to say, prepare for my next book about influence. And so that way when we're on the next podcast, you can say, oh my God, I remember when we talked about that. All right. Exactly. And thanks so much, John. Thanks so much for having me. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to learningleadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12.

Starting point is 00:39:31 Thanks again and we'll see you next time on the Learning Leader Show.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 173: Jon Levy - The Science Of Adventure (The 2 AM Principle)

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