The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 180: Michael Watkins - The First 90 Days: How To Ensure Success In Your New Role

Starting point is 00:00:00 Have we lived in a time in which the world, you know, has been more volatile, more complex, more uncertain, more ambiguous? I don't think so, right? I mean, the speed of change that's going on politically, socially, technologically, it's a kaleidoscope. And so the only leaders that are going to keep up with that are the learning leaders. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk. Hey, and welcome to The Learning Leader Show.

Starting point is 00:01:00 I am Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. Reminder, please join us in our Facebook group titled The Learning Leader Community, a place for leaders from all over the world go to discuss. us a varying degree of leadership topics, how we can improve on a daily basis. I love the conversation that we have going on there regularly. Please join us. On tonight's episode, it's with Dr. Michael Watkins. He is the author of the international bestseller, the first 90 days, critical success strategies for new leaders at all levels, which the economist called the onboarding Bible, with more than 750,000 copies sold worldwide. The first 90 days has become the standard

Starting point is 00:01:41 reference for leaders in transition. Recently, the first 90 days was named one of the 100 best business books of all time. It certainly helped me. A few of the topics we got into. How to make the leap from individual contributor to managing others, including interview tips and processes to follow. That part was fascinating. And then the common traps leaders fall into, followed up by the first steps you should take when transitioning to a new company. This episode, was absolutely packed. I think you'll tell that I loved it. Michael is an extremely intelligent leader who I am a huge fan of. Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, it's Dr. Michael Watkins. All right, Michael, thanks so much for being here on the Learning Leader Show. Let's get it rolling

Starting point is 00:02:34 quickly. Let's talk about sustained excellence. You have made a career of studying others who have done a fantastic job of sustaining excellence over an extended period of time. What are some of the common themes those leaders all seem to share? Thanks, Ryan. I'm really glad to be able to spend some time with you. So I think I'd point to three things that I think sort of characterize the leaders that I think have a lot of sustainability. And to some degree, these are obvious, but they're also not as sort of common as one might hope that they would be. And I think the first is learning agility, right?

Starting point is 00:03:09 I think that the leaders that I see that do a great job are not shy about learning, not shy about the fact that they need to learn going into new roles. They focus on learning as they go into new roles as kind of a key priority. They don't expect themselves to have all the answers and they don't let people sort of put them in a position where they think they should have all the answers. So I think there's that learning agility piece, which I think is really, really, really critical. I think what the research shows, not just mine, but others, is diversity of experience, right? So when you, you know, LinkedIn recently did a great study of sort of people that have, you know, really made it to senior levels. And one of the sort of very interesting and very characteristic things was that they had had pretty diverse experience compared to those that hadn't, right? And diverse meaning multiple functions, multiple companies, in some cases, multiple geographies.

Starting point is 00:04:07 But, you know, I think that, you know, that diversity of experience gives you a perspective that you're not bound to a particular culture. You're not bound to a particular mindset. And I think, again, links to some degree to the learning agility piece. And I think third would be that very delicate balance between humility and ego. You know, it's a very fine line, I find, you know, you don't meet many senior executives that are, you know, tremendously humble people. It just doesn't work that way. But on the other, other hand, there's sufficient humility, right, that you're not into the zone of sort of dangerous narcissism. You're not into the zone of thinking you have the answers. And again, I think it, you know, again, to my mind sort of connects pretty nicely to that overall theme of learning agility. So that would be sort of three things that I would point to sort of right off the bat. Really thought provoking answer. I appreciate that. Are there immediate people that come to mind when you think of leaders who have sustained excellence that just immediately pop in your mind. Yeah, so I point to one person.

Starting point is 00:05:11 I mean, you know, he's an example many people use, but I do think he's a particularly good example, which is Jeff Immalt, that GE. I mean, talk about a guy who had the classic hard act to follow in Jack Welsh, right? I mean, if there's a harder act to follow, I don't know what it is, right? And yet, he's taken that company through a series of transformations over the courses of his career that I think, you know, have sustained the company. I mean, the latest, obviously, I live in Boston, the move of the headquarters to Boston to be close to the hub of innovation that's going on there, I think speaks volumes about where he's taken the company. But the characteristics I've talked about, I think I very much see in him.

Starting point is 00:05:51 And through him, I see the company kind of embracing that same set of mindsets. And, you know, G's also got, as I'm sure you're aware, some wonderfully funny commercials that have come out relatively recently about, you know, sort of not your grandfather's GE and, oh, gee, whiz, we really do. do want, you know, smart programming people. And it's, you know, they're also able to poke fun of themselves. And I think that kind of confidence really flows from the top of an organization. But speaking of confidence, you mentioned in the third part of the common themes of sustained excellence is a delicate balance between humility and ego. And ego to me, you know, I've spoken with Ryan Holiday on this podcast twice. He wrote a book titled ego as the enemy and talked about how ego can can ruin you and destroy,

Starting point is 00:06:34 huge organizations can destroy people. It's interesting that you use the word ego there because I've found that the leaders who are in big positions who have big egos typically don't fare well over the long haul. So I don't think they lack confidence. So that's why I just thought it was thought for broken that you used the word ego as opposed to the word confidence. Yeah. So I think there's a fair point to be made. I think that too big an ego gets in your way.

Starting point is 00:07:06 But I'm sorry, ego, you know, the desire to achieve, the desire to make great things happen in the world, you know, that's more than confidence, right? That's a desire to have an impact. And that reflects an ego. I mean, it just does. So the notion that you can be confident and not have an ego, maybe can you be confident not have an ego and be a great leader? I don't think so, Ryan. I really don't. I love it.

Starting point is 00:07:32 No, the flip side is, and this is important, right, which is, you know, if you're an egot maniac, right? If you're a narcissist, if you have two, you know, greatest sense of certainty about what you're doing, if you created an echo chamber around you of people that think the same way and tell you you're wonderful. Yes. And by the way, you see really fine leaders who over time fall into that trap, right? I mean, I call it the CEO syndrome, you know, long-term CEOs. sometimes fall into that trap of eventually thinking they really do have all the answers. You know, they begin to surround themselves with people that are telling them what they want to hear.

Starting point is 00:08:11 They begin to make bad strategic moves for the sake of, you know, legacy. So there's lots of, lots of sort of bad things that can come from having too big an ego or letting your ego take over, you know, in too great a manner. I think that's one of the critical points when you, when you, as you get promoted through the ranks that you've, You do a good job of surrounding yourself with people who are fearless around telling you the truth. And sometimes it's going to be pleasant and sometimes it's not. Sometimes it's going to really hurt. Yeah. Because no one likes the mirror held up sometimes.

Starting point is 00:08:47 But I couldn't agree with you more, right? Yeah. And to some degree it goes back to the, you know, if we talk about ego and confidence as being kind of two sides of what I think, an ego and balance, right? and confidence without being overconfident. So there's, you know, there's limits. Part of what is a hallmark of that, I think, is exactly what you're pointing to, Ryan, which is the ability to have people who are going to confront you with reality, right? And not insulate yourself and not surround yourself and not block out uncomfortable truths.

Starting point is 00:09:20 And, you know, when I see that happening to an executive, it's a huge warning sign, right? That the end is truly near. Yeah. Yeah. So Michael, let's say you're at a dinner party with people who don't know you. And they say, hey, Michael, what do you do? How do you respond? Well, so what I basically say is I help leaders and their teams make effective transitions. Right. And I know that sounds a little clinical, but that's really in the end what it's all about, right? It's about really great people taking really hard new roles and wanting to, you know, be successful.

Starting point is 00:09:58 in those situations. And my research has really been about how does that happen, right? And over time, my research has expanded, right? I mean, initially, I was very focused on how do you help a leader, you know, get up to speed, faster, better in a new role. Over time, that expanded more into the direction of how do you help leaders reshape their teams, right? So I actually, I had an HBR article published just last June called leading the team you inherit,

Starting point is 00:10:28 which is, I think, a very interesting phenomenon in its own right. And then, of course, inevitably, you start to get into the sphere of how do you help leaders transform their organizations? Because in some senses, that's just a lot of transition that you're trying to manage. But transition has really been at the core of what I do. And it's funny, it wasn't until probably three or four years ago that I really figured out why I was so interested in transition. I mean, I was drawn to that subject, Ryan, like, you know, gravitationally, right?

Starting point is 00:10:58 I mean, the, you know, the phenomenon of someone coming into a situation where they don't really know what's going on. They don't even know what they don't know, right? They're struggling to get up the learning curve but have an impact. That, you know, connection, you know, maybe we'll talk a little later about, you know, connecting to new cultures, that kind of adaptability. something about that just literally absolutely grabbed me. And it wasn't until, as I said, three or four years ago, and I realized that, you know, between the ages of three and ten, I moved every single year.

Starting point is 00:11:33 I was in a different school every single year. So I lived transition for almost all the formative, you know, years of my upbringing. I was in eight different public schools, right? So every year, I had to go in and figure it out again, right? Connect with people, build relationships. get early wins, you know, establish myself in a new role of a kind. And I know it sounds like, duh, like how could you not have figured that? But it was only, someone asked me that question a few years ago.

Starting point is 00:12:03 And I kind of went, oh, yeah, that's what it is, right? That, you know, and I think it was partially about how do you help people do that? Because it's really hard, right? And if there are ways to help people do that, that was kind of my calling, if you were, my mission. Why did you guys move every year at that age? Oh, so my father worked for a very large power utility in Canada. I'm from Canadian originally by birth. And there was huge construction projects going on all through Northern Ontario at that point.

Starting point is 00:12:35 Power dams, big huge power lines. It was just like the time that the country was electrifying in a very profound way and industrializing more deeply than it had been. And so we were moving from construction project to construction project over a number of years. And it was fascinating. It was interesting, right? But it was hard. How did you manage that?

Starting point is 00:12:58 Because I distinctly remembered this. And you're going to think this is crazy maybe. But so my family and I was younger in elementary school were looking to build a new home. And my brothers and I, I remember telling my parents vividly saying, you cannot build a home outside of our current school district. We were just adamant about it. And to them, neither of them went to this, you know, they never, neither of them grew up where we, where they raised us. So they weren't tied to the area. But we were adamant that we did not want to change schools at that young age.

Starting point is 00:13:31 And so I'm thinking of you and your life and saying, wow, that was, that was pretty weak of us when you're doing it every single year for about seven years. Well, but the flip side is, I'm a complete mess, right? I'm kidding. But, you know, so. What impact did it have on you? Yeah. So I think it made me, I mean, in some ways it made me much more resilient, right? I think that there's, you know, throughout my life, I think if you ask people who are close friends

Starting point is 00:13:59 and family, they'd say this is someone who's really resilient against a lot of life's challenges. I think the downside is that, you know, you do kind of grow up with an anticipation that things are temporary and that, you know, you've got to be careful about setting down roots that are too deep because they're just going to get ripped up anyway. And it's a phenomenon actually that's been written about quite a bit in the context of people who are expats, right, go on a lot of expat assignments and end up with kids who aren't really rooted anywhere. You know, they're called third culture kids. And I do think that's the downside. And it's funny you say that about the school district because I erred with my own children on the other side, right? I was very focused on

Starting point is 00:14:43 having them grow up in one town in one school district with that kind of stability, I think, in part because of the, you know, I sort of missed it somewhere. But on the other hand, I'm still, you know, I'm hanging in there. I was going to say, the work that you've accomplished is incredible. So I know you didn't mention it, but, I mean, you got your PhD from Harvard. You've written a book that's personally impacted me, and we're going to talk about it. But there's multiple books that you've written, but the one I wanted to focus on was called the first 90 days.

Starting point is 00:15:10 And really, it's about people who, at least all. I'll share how it's impacted me. You know, a lot of people write me emails, Michael, who are, who are either making the jump or looking to make the jump from an individual contributor role to a leadership slash management job. And they want to be prepared for it. And then once they get it, they're not necessarily certain what to do. Because a lot of the learning is on your own. I mean, you have to figure it out on your own. And I remember when I first made the jump years ago, I had an incredible boss who was great.

Starting point is 00:15:43 However, he also was very busy and had a lot of things to do. And so I had to look outward for help and your work has helped me quite a bit. And I'm currently going through a change. I'm right in the middle of those first 90 days at the beginning stages of it, myself right now. And so I'm going back to your book. And that's why I came back to your book. I thought, you know, let me just reach out to Michael. This would be neat to have a direct conversation.

Starting point is 00:16:10 So maybe I could get a little bit of coaching and also impact others. along the way. So talk about the first 90 days and how and one, maybe where you got the experience to write it mixed with the research that obviously is throughout. Sure. So just maybe back up a little bit, right, which is that, you know, when I look at the world of transition, I try to understand what are distinct types of transitions that people go through. And often it's actually a mix of types of transitions that people go through. Right. And so, and in fact, I have to, have a little tool, you know, that I use that I call a transition risk assessment that's really, you know, designed to help people assess the extent to which they're going through

Starting point is 00:16:53 transitions, what those transitions, you know, what sorts of challenges of those transitions pose for them, how much risk are they under, basically, in doing that. So that's, I just wanted to sort of highlight that. That's the bigger territory we're kind of operating in here. Then if you think if you if you home in on promotion a little bit, right, there was a great book written by Ram Sharon and his colleagues a while back called The Leadership Pipeline. I know if you ever heard that book or not. And it talks a lot about all the changes that happen as you move up through different levels. And of course, you know, levels today are different than they were when the book was written. But it's still, it's still a, you know, I think a useful framework. And the reason, I sort of highlight that is that, you know, that first move from individual contributor to frontline leader, I think it's among the very hardest transitions that anybody makes, right?

Starting point is 00:17:53 And I think that the reason for that is that, you know, you really are focused in as an individual contributor on doing work, being an expert, having a specialty. And that's where your identity is rooted. it's where your competence is rooted. And then one day someone comes along and basically, you know, waves the magic wand metaphorically, right? And, you know, there you are leading other people, right? And that's a completely different skill set. Like, you know, and by the way, going from being a frontline leader to being a leader of leaders,

Starting point is 00:18:26 nowhere close to us hard, right? Nowhere close to us hard. Because, you know, you've already learned to a degree to lead people. And what changes is, you know, obviously leading contributors is a bit different than, you know, leading leaders. But you're still fundamentally leading, right? You're trying to motivate people. You're engaged in performance management of various, you know, kind sizes, shapes, and descriptions. The way you sort of need to develop those people, obviously, is too much or is different than it is, you know, the case for, you know, obviously different than if you're sort of leading leaders than leading front lines, you know, contributors.

Starting point is 00:19:04 But it's just, that move is just so hard. And if you talk to even people who have gone to very senior levels, which I have, and you ask them to look back and say, what were the toughest transitions you went through in your career, that's number one, right? That transition, even from someone who's been a CEO, right? They'll look back and say, you know, the hardest transition I ever went through was that transition from being an individual contributor to being a manager for the first time. And I think your point, by the way, about not getting so much support is a good one, right?

Starting point is 00:19:39 There are some organizations that do a decent job of providing, you know, training for frontline managers. But it's not, no, it's not as common or as deep as one would want it to be. And if you think about the skill sets, right, the fundamentals of performance management and goal setting, feedback, coaching, right, selection, development. And those are really important and very deep skill sets that then form the foundation for someone leading throughout the rest of their careers, really. And so it's a huge mistake if you're not providing as an organization, a foundation of those things. Yeah. What are some of the common traps that leaders fall into in new roles? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:20:23 Well, actually, let's start with that particular one, right? So for people becoming managers for touch time, you know, obviously staying, relying to, relying, much on their technical expertise is the classic, right? Because that was the form of competence and identity. And one thing you can always count on with people is they want to feel competent, right? And so you're pushing them into a place where they're not comfortable, they're going to tend to go where they are comfortable. And that's by continuing to be the technical expert.

Starting point is 00:20:50 And the other thing I see a lot at that level is people trying to function more as a super peer than as a boss. Just going to say that. Yeah. That's just that they're not really stepping up. to lead, right? They kind of still want to be part of the team. They're not comfortable with that very hard place. If you're in sales, you become the super rep as opposed to as opposed to teaching others how to do it and giving in coaching and feedback because really you can't scale yourself. It's

Starting point is 00:21:21 really hard. And so the job of a sales leader and I speak of sales because that's the profession I live in is the fact that you can work on. scaling yourself, but if you're going to continuously be the super rep, that's, that's never going to happen. Never going to happen. And a lot of it is exactly what you're saying, right? Which is about how do you, how do you leverage yourself, right? You've got to be a force multiplier and you can't do that if you're not actually leading.

Starting point is 00:21:47 You're not delegating. You're not directing. You're not setting goals. You're not doing all the important things. And then if you think about, you know, as you go up through the ranks, right, from front line leader to leader of leaders, maybe then you're you're leading a fine. or a specialty of some form or another, what tends to happen there that's new and different is you may now be part of a leadership team that is cross-functional or cross-specialty,

Starting point is 00:22:12 and that's a big change, right? And how do you then balance between wearing your functional or specialist hat and wearing your enterprise hat? And that's, I see people struggle a lot with that one at that level. And then of course, if you end up sort of running a cross-function operation or a business unit or something like that, you know, that tendency to continue to rely on your function of origin, right? In the classic trap, I see people fall into there. Like, let's say you get promoted to lead the organization where you're currently the VP of sales, right? One of the challenges you would

Starting point is 00:22:46 face if that happened. I would lean towards sales. Yeah, you'd still try to be VP of sales. Right. And your organization doesn't need two VPs of sales, right? And who's going to oversee supply chain and finance and IT and HR? And, yep. But it's still try to be VP of sales. And the organization. And the organization. And you're It's hard, right, because you've got to know enough about those functions to really act as the kind of integrator, right, that you need to be. And so the traps to some degree are level specific, but there's also some classic ones that people fall into at all levels, right? Coming in with the answer, right? Thinking you understand what's going on when you haven't really done the depth of diagnosis that you need to and not being open to the learning process, taking on too much, right? focus is just, it's really hard during a transition. The tendency to want to try and to do too much

Starting point is 00:23:32 too soon is, is always there, not building lateral relationships with your peers, focusing too much up to the boss and down to your direct reports and not enough laterally early on. Those engaging in the wrong kind of learning, right? So you focus a lot on what I call technical learning and not enough on the cultural and political learning that you need to do. These are some classic traps that people fall into when they take new rules. You talk about why you should relearn how to learn. And so the word learn is in the title of this podcast. I think it's based on my inquisitive nature to just go towards every conversation with a curious mind.

Starting point is 00:24:17 And it's helped me, I think. And certainly in the process of this right now, basically saying, look, I don't know anything. and I'm working towards changing that, but I need to learn from as many of people as possible cross-functional and really going in with no ego because there are some things I can bring from previous experience, but also knowing that when you go to a new organization, there's many different aspects of it that you need to learn.

Starting point is 00:24:46 And so part of that is just having the conversations with key people throughout the business as a whole and not just focusing on like your boss or your direct reports. Yeah, there's a couple of things I would say. about that. I mean, you know, you're in a pretty classic situation, right? You've moved between one business unit to another in the same organization,

Starting point is 00:25:04 but those are very different organizations with different product sets, different cultures. You know, so how do you set your learning priorities in a situation like that? How do you make your learning process as efficient and as effective as it needs to be? You know, as I said, one

Starting point is 00:25:20 place I start is what's the right balance of technical, cultural, political learning. Now, you've probably got a new set of products that you need to learn, a new set of sales systems. I'm making this up, Ryan, but you know what I mean, right? You're right. You know, it's a different industry to some degree

Starting point is 00:25:35 you're operating in with a different set of customers, and so you're engaging in all that learning. It would be easy, given how much there is to learn, to not focus much time on how is the culture here different than the culture of the unit that I came from, right? And especially because it's a unit of the same company, and I'm not saying you're falling into this trap. just using it as an example, right?

Starting point is 00:25:58 Yeah. There sometimes can be a tendency to say, well, the culture probably isn't that different, right? Or I don't need to worry about that too much. And so, you know, how do you focus enough attention on what are the key differences in the culture here? What's the same? What's different? How do I really get things done here? What's in bounds and what's not?

Starting point is 00:26:18 And then there's the political learning piece, right? How does power and influence work in this organization, right? Who has power? Why do they have power? Who are the key? You said it? who are the key stakeholders, whose support is, you know, am I really going to need to get things done here? How do I build those relationships and even more deeply alliances to make the things happen than I need to?

Starting point is 00:26:39 And so, you know, when I work with people to set up a learning agenda early on, I often, not often, I always get them to focus on let's set some technical learning goals, but also some cultural and political learning goals. And even if culture and politics, you know, are 10% each, that's okay, right? the danger is when you're not focusing on them at all. And then there's a whole piece about how do you really speed up the learning process. So you know, you pointed out correctly having conversations with people, but being very purposeful about who am I having conversations with, what am I trying to learn, you know, updating, keeping a learning journal, right, updating so that you kind of record the insights that you've got.

Starting point is 00:27:20 And simple technique, right, like asking, you know, people the same basic question and if you get different answers. You know, it's not rocket science. Yeah. But there is a, there is a technology that you can use to really dramatically speed up your learning process when you go into a new role. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:27:37 So Michael, prior to us talking, I, uh, so I have a community, a Facebook community called the learning leader community. It's, it's incredible. It just kind of built itself up over the last six months. And I, I put a picture of your book, the first 90 days. And I said, hey, to everyone in the community, what, you know, what, what, what are some of the ways that you have done a good job getting up to speed quickly. And a number of the people had read your book already in there. An initial one caught my eye that I thought was pretty

Starting point is 00:28:07 brilliant from Omeid, Homi and a friend of mine. He's become a friend. And he said initially, right when he got his job, he asked his manager at the time, if you were starting a dream team, who would be your starting five from across the entire business? And so his manager told him, and he immediately set up coffee meetings, as he put it, with those people and then kind of branched out from that. What a great way to start, you know? Oh, it's a tremendous way to start, right? And I think what he did, which is really super, is he identified some key people. Now, they may not be the most powerful people, and that's a little bit of a watch out, right?

Starting point is 00:28:43 You know, I think that they may be, because you're getting one person's lens on who are the really, you know, the up-and-comers in the organization. And that's useful information. you know, my only caution would be to make sure you're not treating that as the sole basis for doing it. But no, it's a tremendous idea to ask that, right? And I mean, it's really simple in some ways, right? I always say to people, anytime you get a new job, ask your boss, who are the 10 people you should talk to? And ask them to send an email all those people and say you're going to be reaching up and why. I mean, that's how long does that take to do?

Starting point is 00:29:22 right? And so I mean part of what you're also pointing to, which is crucial, is that bosses also have a really important role to play in accelerating transitions. I mean, the primary impetus does and should sit with the person taking the role, but there's so much that people around them can do to help, right? The boss, the HR business partner, peers. You know, this then goes to, I think, interesting, you know, questions about the culture of the organization. Is it a culture that's supportive of people taking new roles? Is it a sink or swim kind of culture? What are expectations culturally of people when you hire somebody new? What are you going to do to speed that person up? And is it something that the organization kind of supports or is it something that only you as an individual leader kind of decide whether it happens or not?

Starting point is 00:30:12 What do you think about leaders who, when they get hired, they instantly want to, I don't know, put their stamp on the job. by making a big splashy move versus being in a learning mode. I'm curious to get your thoughts. I've gotten advice both ways, by the way. Some say, hey, when you get in there, you've got to leave your mark instantly. And that's not necessarily in my nature, more of a learner and a listener first to try to understand the situation before making a dramatic move just to say, like, look, the new boss is in town. So I'm curious to get your thoughts on this.

Starting point is 00:30:45 Well, so, Ryan, I'm an academic, right? And so my answer to any question like that is, it depends. Right. Yep. But then I think we can say a little bit more about what it depends on, right? So very early in the work I did on accelerating transitions, it became really obvious to me that the way you transition depends a lot on the kind of situation you're going into. Right. Right.

Starting point is 00:31:06 So if you said to me, look, I've been hired into this organization and it is a disaster in progress. Right. I'm in turn. I'm there to turn around the sales organization. I would be saying to you pretty short learning period, right? Lots of that, lots of focus on analytics. Don't worry too much about the culture because you're going to be changing a lot anyway. Make some early moves because you're going to have to.

Starting point is 00:31:29 Probably around personnel, you're going to need a new team, you know. Very decisive, very directive, very focused on providing people with hope, retaining the best talent. You know, that kind of action orientation would be completely appropriate. situation like that. If you said to me, you know, look, I'm coming in an organization that's really pretty successful, right? But it needs some realignment, you know, but it's nothing. It's perfect here. But there's no burning platform really going on at the moment, right? Then I would say to you, take time, you know, spend some time really to figure the place out, understand the culture, understand what it's made it successful, understand what the emerging issues are, focus a little more time on the learning, recognize. And I think you kind of hit on this earlier when you talked about, you know, learning and credibility, right? That being seen to get up to speed can be itself an early wins, right? Yep. It doesn't, you don't have to be taking action to get early wins.

Starting point is 00:32:29 It doesn't have to be quick wins. It doesn't have to be low-hanging fruit. You know, it's really determining what in that particular situation you're in is going to help gain momentum for the organization and credibility for you. And that's highly situationally dependent. You know, so does that make sense to you? Absolutely. So I think, you know, so I mean, no, now what I do see, by the way, I'm sorry, is that you see people who come in and try to make the market, no matter what the situation is.

Starting point is 00:32:56 Yeah. Right. You know, it's the old change for change sake. I have my little jokes about this, right? I'm my joke about this is I have a friend who can turn anything into a turnaround. Right. And if it isn't when he starts, it sure is by the time he's done, you know. So, and I think it's also fairly predictable what people try to change.

Starting point is 00:33:15 change, right? They try to change the easy stuff, right? Let's change the structure and move the boxes around. Let's change the strategy. You know, they seldom focus on the deeper work of processes, systems, culture, talent, because that just takes time. Yeah. Right. And it's not, it's not flashy and, you know, obvious. So to me, the first impression is a big deal. Sometimes it's hard to change a first impression. And so I know personally when, you know, I've gone through this recently, when you have your first, let's say, all town hall meeting or whatever maybe where there's a big number of people either in a room or on the phone, because everybody lives across the country, to me, it is vital to invest a great deal of time in preparation

Starting point is 00:34:02 for that meeting. Absolutely. Let them know how important it is to you that you're not going to waste their time when you get them all together and that you have some sort of a vision and some thoughts and some ideas, even if you're relatively new. And I think it's also great to share some Some of the specific examples from within the company not just all this is what I used to do and I'm going to keep doing it But specific examples because you've met with certain people and that leads into I think early wins creating momentum

Starting point is 00:34:30 Can you share the beginning stages for a leader creating early wins creating momentum and and ways to prepare to do that? Sure. We've already covered some of it right which is the building of personal credibility and as we've talked to about that's situationally dependent. Being seen to be learning effectively can be a big driver of credibility. But at some point, you have to start to do things that are a little more substantive, right? And I think that that first sort of public appearance, if you will, really is so critical. You know, I mean, I think, you know, obviously you'll have met with your team previously. You'll be working in close with people. But, you know, people are straining to understand who Ryan is and what he represents as a leader, right? And does he get us or not? Is it going to

Starting point is 00:35:14 take us in good places or not. I mean, you know, the starting point with any sort of communication like this is, what is the audience, what are the questions in the mind of this audience that they really want to answer, right? And I mean, the classic, you know, why should they want to be led by you, right? To paraphrase the old, that wonderful, you know, work that was done. They want to see who you are as a human being, right? They want to understand a little bit about your leadership style and how you lead. they want to understand that you've taken the time to understand them, right?

Starting point is 00:35:47 That you appreciate some of what's already been accomplished, assuming it's not a disaster of progress, right? Right? That you've taken the time to understand some of what the organization has accomplished, that you've got a sense of some of the challenges that the organization is up against, right? That you're going to have their back, right? That you're going to go out and do battle for the organization. It's not, again, not rocket science.

Starting point is 00:36:12 It's very basic stuff, which I know as a successful sales leader, you understand that. The first time you stand up in front of the Salesforce, right? There's certain, well, I may ask you that question. The first time you stand up in front of the sales force, let's say, what do you want to have them come away thinking? Well, I could speak out with this for quite some time, but I will say this. I'll try to be as concise as possible. I work really hard to think about what it's like from their perspective. and to put myself in their shoes and to look through my notebook when I was an individual

Starting point is 00:36:46 contributor and what I liked and what I didn't like from the leaders of our business. And I tried to minimize or eliminate the things that I did not like and do the things that I did and that I've learned along the way from 175 plus of these conversations to Michael to say, okay, this is what some of the greats have done. And really just think about it from their perspective of what do they want to hear. And you just mentioned some of the main points that I've thought about when I, you know, have written out and delivered this, the first initial address is they want to hear here that you are in the process of learning and trying to understand them and understand the good and the bad. And to do what I would call and others have said it's not my, I don't, I didn't start this, but what would be a start, stop, continue, right? So what are we doing right now that's, what are we doing right now that's great that we should continue doing?

Starting point is 00:37:37 what are some things that are happening that we should just stop because it's terrible? And then what are some ideas that you've had that maybe you've shared in the past that have not happened, but you'd like for them to happen? So in other words, what should we start doing? And so the fact that I've gathered all of that intelligence, put some of that information within that first keynote address can really help, I think, create an early win that, wow, he listens. He seems to care. And he's sharing. He understands us. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:38:06 He's been in our place. Exactly. And I think never forget. And that's why it was, I got great advice for my first ever VP. His name is actually Rex Caswell. He's the man. I love Rex to this day. And he said, hey, take a notebook and write it in all the things that you really like and write it in all the things that you don't like about all the leadership people that you have, whether it's your boss or his boss and everyone else. If you go to the first national sales meeting, like, write down what you like and what you don't like. And I bet he doesn't even remember that he told me that advice. But I still have the book and I still write in it. And I've also shifted a lot of the notes to Google Docs just to make sure it's there. But my point is I never will stop looking at that because it helps remind me, wow, when I was a rep, I really hated that. But I wouldn't even maybe if I didn't have that perspective, I wouldn't think about it anymore. That's awesome. But I do think about it now because I remind myself, regardless of how much I think I know, I need to always look at that and think of it from that perspective. So I think you just described beautifully what it takes to build and get early wins in a situation like that and how you gain that personal credibility with that. those people and how they come to see you as someone they want to follow, right? And, and,

Starting point is 00:39:11 and then, of course, you're going to start to articulate a vision and a strategy and a set of goals and a set of incentives and all the other things that you need to do to, you know, put the overall superstructure in place to align energy and move people forward. And also, presumably, you're looking for reasons why there are blocks, right? Right. Exactly. Exactly. And some potential early wins that can be made from process oriented things. that maybe people just haven't worked to change that could potentially be tweaked and make the the group run more efficiently and better. So that's a great example, right?

Starting point is 00:39:49 So look for little irritants you can remove easily. Huge, right? Oh, my God, he understands, right? You understand how aggravating it is that we need to do, you know, those 15 steps, rather than when we could really do it in five, you know? Yeah, no, absolutely right. Absolutely right. So I'd like to maybe talk briefly about people listening. And the reason I bring this up, Michael, is I'm heavily influenced by listeners who email me. I love getting those notes when they send them to me just from my website, learning leader.com and where they say they've either just made the jump or they really, maybe they're just out of college and they have visions of making that jump someday. So when somebody comes to you and they say, hey, how can I best prepare? to make that jump.

Starting point is 00:40:36 What do I need to do when I first, whether I'm working at a small company, big company, anything in between that I want to be in a position where I'm leading others at some point. And I want to get there quickly. What's some of the advice you give them? Because I think there's a couple parts of this. One is the beginning stage of the career. And two is when they're potentially in the interview process to make the leap. So we'll start there.

Starting point is 00:40:59 So I think that one of the most powerful things I think you can do early on is identify people who have been outstanding in the positions that you aspire to be in and make yourself a student of those people, right? So you referred to a mentor who obviously had a big impact on you, you know. But I think that that's what I always advise people to do is, you know, you've got a bunch of case studies around you of people who are effective or less effective being, you know, let's say frontline leaders is the target point, right? You know, so that's where I always say to tell people to begin, right? Who in this organization is viewed as being really effective in that role? Why? What is there about them that does that?

Starting point is 00:41:44 Who's not viewed as being all that effective? Because frankly, as you know well, you can learn a lot, you know, in some cases more from bad bosses than you can than you can from good ones. But that sort of observational learning, I think, is among the most powerful things you can do. just open your eyes, right, and recognize there's going to be a spectrum of capability at that level. Some people are going to be really good. Some are going to be really bad. What's the difference, you know? And I think that's, you know, to me, that's fundamental. And beyond that, I think you can read what's available, right, to try and really understand. And there are some pretty decent books, right? So Linda Hills, I think it's called Becoming a Boss. If you don't know, Linda,

Starting point is 00:42:24 she's a former colleague at Harvard Business School, and she's tremendous, right? And she's done a lot a really wonderful work. So, you know, I identify the top two, three books on the subject of becoming a boss and absorb them. But recognize there's no substitute for doing it. Right. You know, you can do all that study, but then you've got to get into the feedback loop of really beginning to understand what it means to give people, to manage people's

Starting point is 00:42:51 performance, right? Which to me is the core of leadership in the end. It's really about performance management. If you can't do performance management well. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm not sure what else. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:43:02 So let's say tactically now, Liz, you're one of the handful of candidates who are going for a job and the interviews coming up and maybe it's a panel. Maybe it's probably multiple interviews, multiple panels or whatever it may be. How do you prepare? What do you bring? Do you bring a formal plan? Do you bring a 30, 60, 90 day? What do you do in order to be? Ryan, of course you do.

Starting point is 00:43:27 I had a feeling you're going to say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was trying to just put it up on the tea for you, though. Yeah, yeah, thanks. I appreciate. Actually, no, no, no, I wouldn't do anything like that. No, no, so I do think it, you know, it does behoove you to think and talk about how you would approach taking the role, right? What do you imagine you would be doing going into this role?

Starting point is 00:43:49 I mean, obviously you have to be articulating as well as you can, especially in the later stages of the interview, what you learned about what really. really needs to be done here, right? What are the core challenges? Why do you think you're someone that can address that court challenge set of core challenges for the organization? But then also, I do think that, and I wouldn't say 30, 60, 90, I'd be talking more a little bit more flexibly about how would I come into this role, what would I expect to be doing, right? How would I engage with the organization in a deep way? How would I connect myself and integrate myself? Because I think that that's where I see people go wrong, right? I mean, there's so much out there that's been written about onboarding, for example,

Starting point is 00:44:33 but very little that's been written about how do you really integrate yourself into an organization. And I think that's what people worry about at some level is that you're not going to fit. You're not going to integrate. You're not going to become part of the team. And if you can allay those concerns, it takes you that, I think, additional step forward. I mean, if you're clear, you've got a couple basic hurdles to cross, right? One is you understand what the job demands. The second thing is you've got the capabilities to do it.

Starting point is 00:45:00 But what really then the third pillar, if you will, is you're going to integrate. You're going to be thoughtful about how you do that. You're going to really focus on how you begin to have the right kind of impact and the right kind of ways as quickly as possible. Yeah. It's interesting. You said it doesn't have to be a 30, 60, 90. I've interviewed a lot of people going for leadership roles and, And the overwhelming majority of them put together a 30, 60, 90.

Starting point is 00:45:28 And one of my all-time favorites, this gentleman came with one sheet. And basically, this is my beliefs when it comes of leadership. And it was the most thoughtful one pageer I've ever seen. And I immediately, you know, and he happened to back it up in an interview too and did a phenomenal job while everyone else kind of, you know, did a Google search. And they created a very, you know, not the right word, but unthoughtful 30, 60, 90 day plan that you could tell they felt like they had to do it, but it wasn't theirs. And I love the one cheater of like, these are my core beliefs as a leader, as a human, as a learner, as a person. And for me, as someone who I think, you know, thinks a lot, it meant a lot to me. That's a wonderful example.

Starting point is 00:46:15 And I agree with you. And it's actually something I recommend people do pretty early when they take new rules to, which. is articulate to their new organization what they stand for as a leader. Right. Exactly. And what, you know, yeah. And I couldn't agree with you more, right? Yeah, everybody, I think it's a good process to get into whether, you know, you can do it

Starting point is 00:46:34 multiple ways. Like these are just my core beliefs as a person. And another great exercise to sit down with your family and maybe create a sort of a creed with them as well. These are things that we believe in. And so you have involvement with your kids. I found that to be another enjoyable and a learning experience that. I think is really powerful to grow the family dynamic.

Starting point is 00:46:55 Michael, this has been great, man. I really appreciate the fact that... Yeah, it's been really fun. Yeah, like it's flew by. I really did. And I have a feeling that I'm hopeful that maybe we could do it again at some point. But I love... I would be delighted to do that.

Starting point is 00:47:10 Awesome, awesome. I have one final question. That's around when, you know, you saw a guy with a podcast title, The Learning Leader Show, sent you a cold email. asking you to be on a podcast to record with him. What was your first thought when you saw the phrase learning leader? I loved it, right? Because it fits so, you know, deeply with what I believe effective learning and leadership

Starting point is 00:47:36 is all about, right? So, yeah, no, I resonated with it immediately, Ryan. I thought, oh, that's really interesting, right? And to found your sort of approach to leadership on learning, especially given where we are today, right, with the volatility and, you know, dynamicism in the environment. I just thought, yeah, that makes complete sense. It made me want to look deeper. It made me want to check you out a little bit and see what was going on and see what you'd

Starting point is 00:48:01 done. And so, no, it was great. Good. What do you mean the volatility and the dynamic environment we're in? Have we lived in a time in which the world, you know, has been more volatile, more complex, more uncertain, more ambiguous. I don't think so, right? I mean, the speed of change that's going on politically, socially, technologically, it's a kaleidoscope.

Starting point is 00:48:29 And so the only leaders that are going to keep up with that are the learning leaders. Interesting. Agree completely. And I appreciate you, Sharon, again. Hey, Mike, where would you send my listeners to learn more about you online? So probably the best place. I'm the chairman of a company called Genesis Advisors that does transition acceleration work. And our website is www.

Starting point is 00:48:54 www. orgensitvisors.com. And Advisors is with an ERS at the end. Yep. Perfect. And obviously there's a number of books, but the first 90 days, just put that Amazon. And I highly recommend anyone who's looking at to be in any sort of leadership or whether you are. or you want to be or maybe you need to help somebody else, certainly is the first place I would go.

Starting point is 00:49:22 One of the first resources I would touch on to get it. And that's written by you. So I appreciate you putting that out in the world, acknowledge the fact that you've helped me and millions of others. So thank you very much for taking the time to do it and for certainly for investing your time with me here on the Learning Leader Show, Michael. Well, it's been an absolute pleasure. Take care. All right. Thanks.

Starting point is 00:49:44 This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to Learningleadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on The Learning Leader Show.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 180: Michael Watkins - The First 90 Days: How To Ensure Success In Your New Role

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