The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 181: Srini Rao - How To Be Unmistakably Creative

Starting point is 00:00:00 is, you know, what you're doing today going to lead you to where you want to be five years from now and 10 years from now. And if the answer is no, then, you know, then you have to really consider it. Because I thought about it, you know, like I think at that point I was like 31 or 32 and I kind of thought to myself, wow, I'm like, every decision I've made throughout my 20s in the last 10, 12 years has led me to this exact point. If I keep making the same kinds of decisions, I'm going to end up in the exact same place. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan Hawk.

Starting point is 00:00:41 Hey, and welcome to The Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. What an interesting featured leader tonight. It's Shreeny Rao. He's the host and co-founder of the Unmistakable Creative Podcast. Also, A bestselling author travels the world giving speeches on how to be unmistakable. And he defines that during this conversation tonight. Also, creating systems versus goals and how the systems Sirene has created have led to sustained excellence in his life. Then how to turn disadvantages into disproportionate advantages. And Srini discusses the fact that he got fired at multiple jobs and why, especially given the fact that he's a Pepperdine MBA. then how its nomadic childhood has helped him weave in and out of relationships

Starting point is 00:01:41 and create more meaningful conversations amongst a diverse group of people. Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, it's Sreeny Rao. All right, Serini, thank you so much for being here. Excited to talk to you. You've been brought to my attention by multiple people, so I'm excited to have you here on the Learning Leader Show. Welcome. Yeah, thanks for having me.

Starting point is 00:02:10 A question to get us going. You've interviewed, what, 650 plus of the best leaders in the world? Is that accurate right now? Yeah, that's about, I stopped counting at some point, but I would say, yeah, we're probably close to that, maybe even close to 700. 700 people. So 700 of some of the greatest leaders who have sustained excellence in their unique fields over an extended period of time, a remarkable amount of people.

Starting point is 00:02:37 So you have great knowledge of this. I'm curious, if you had to distill it. it down into a few common themes that most of them share, even though that's impossible that many people. I'm curious, what are the few that you've pulled out right off the top of your head? That's funny. I actually wrote a medium post about this titled The Six People that People with Interesting Careers have in common, because I think that's how I would describe all of them.

Starting point is 00:02:59 So let's see. I think that the first is, you know, what I would, what one of our guests described as a pathological inability to accept the status quo. I think that the thing that's interesting about all of these people is that they have an unusual and exceptional ability to overcome their social programming. Because so much of our lives are dictated by our social programming and the messages that we hear growing up and the things that, you know, are expected of us and the things that people tell you are the secret to a good life. And yet, you know, often those things aren't are things that you have, you know, you haven't come to those conclusions via your own. inquiry and your own questions, you've basically just accepted them at face value. And so I think that's one of the big ones is the willingness to actually, you know, conduct an ongoing inquiry

Starting point is 00:03:49 about what, you know, really truly fulfills them and what makes them happy and what they consider to be a life worth living. Because, you know, and the funny thing is that, you know, you, you and I could easily say, okay, well, the things that we talk about in the podcast are what make a life worth living, but that I think to not question even the things you're being told by people you look up to is very dangerous. So I think that that's a big one is that they're not affected by their social programming as much as the average person. Another one I think is resilience, of course, and which I, you know, I would be surprised if I'm saying something that's entirely new in that because, you know, every one of them has gone through difficult things to get to where they're at.

Starting point is 00:04:27 Like every one of them has some semblance of a hero's journey that has led them to the work that they're doing and, you know, who they've become and, you know, how they've ended up being what they are. So, yeah, I'm trying to think of all the other ones. The other thing is, I think work ethic, man. I mean, there's a discipline, work ethic, and focus that every one of these people has that allows them to produce the level they do. Because you don't become prolific by fucking around on Facebook all day on, you know, forgive me if we're not allowed to swear. You'll have to edit that out. You're good.

Starting point is 00:04:56 I asked you to come on. You just, you know, there's a level of discipline that's absolutely essential to do this kind of work. And so, yeah, I mean, and those are. Those are things. And then I think the other one is the ability to navigate uncertainty, right? Because inevitably, this kind of work doesn't come without a, you know, with a sort of map and a guarantee that you'll get from one destination to another or from here to there. Yeah, go ahead. So, you know, the thing is that you kind of have to draw your own map, right? And most of these people would be doing what they're doing. You know, nobody was paying attention. So I think those are a few off the top of my head. I don't remember them in detail. Like I said, I'll send you a link to the article, which I actually, I think it was. titled six things that people with.

Starting point is 00:05:42 Interesting careers have in common. I actually looking at right now, I read it prior to talking. I thought it was really interesting. I'll name a couple of them, and if there's anything you want to jump off of, but I, because the only reason to bring this up, because I thought it was a really well done post that people should read. And here's, here's just the six of them that really quick. And then you could, you could follow up after.

Starting point is 00:06:01 So their path is never linear. They've all gone through something difficult. They turn disadvantages into disproportionate advantages. They have bold and compelling points of view. Their behavior isn't dictated by social programming, kind of what you talked about. And they are lifelong learners, which obviously flows perfectly into what my show is all about. Yeah, I think the really big one is that their paths are never linear, right? Like, if you look at it, you couldn't map out most of these career trajectories.

Starting point is 00:06:35 So let's look at one example that I'll give you, Joe Loia, who, you know, robbed 30 banks, spent seven years in prison, became a talking head on the criminal justice system, was a mentor to Piper Kerman who ended up writing Orange is the New Black and even wrote a book himself. That's not exactly sort of a career plan that you could map out, you know. No career counselor in high school is going to say, hey, you know, this is what an option is you could rob banks become, you know, an author and talking head on the criminal justice system. that's just not, you know, so absolutely their path is not linear. I think the other thing, like you said, lifelong learning is really kind of at the core. You know, every one of the people that I've ever interviewed are like voracious readers. They're, you know, people. I think they're inherently curious about the world and about what's possible with life and all sorts of other stuff.

Starting point is 00:07:24 I'm so glad you said that, Serenia, because I obviously, it's one of the questions I get asked the most is, okay, so you've talked to all these people. what are some of the common things that you've pulled from them? And you just mentioned two of them. Because for some reason, people like to argue about the book thing, which just blows my mind. I mean, Charlie Munger's quote, they're all out there about the successful people that all of them, 100% across the board, are extremely well read. They're constantly fueling their mind with new information, whether it's a novel because you want to relax or it's a business book because you're looking to grow some sort of a business or lead others. they're constantly searching for new information because they realize they will never have it fully figured out. And so that part surprised me when somebody tells me that they don't have time to read.

Starting point is 00:08:13 All it means is that I think their priorities might be a little bit backwards. Yeah, I mean, I'm a voracious reader, as you know. I mean, if you've kept up with my medium post, I think I recently wrote a piece titled How to Read 100 Books in a year, because that's probably what I'm going, I estimate, I mean, I stop keeping count, but I'm pretty sure that by the time the end of the year is rolled around, I'll have read 100 books. And yeah, I think that that's definitely a common theme. You know, I think the lifelong learning, the uncertainty. The other thing, like I said, I mean, I think that the big one to me, I think that seems

Starting point is 00:08:48 to be maybe the one that they all have had in common is the ability to turn disadvantages into disproportionate advantages, you know, like. So one of the things that I have that I think has been a huge disadvantage that has turned into a disproportionate advantage is the fact that I've been fired from just about every real job I've ever been at. And so, you know, the thing is that I think one of the things that often is our biggest inhibitor of growth is the fact that we're comfortable in the situation that we're in because often it's a discomfort or some tremendous disruption that enables this this great change that, you know, happens in your life. And that change is very often forced upon a lot of people.

Starting point is 00:09:27 it's not something that comes about if you're comfortable and just rolling with the punches because it like it can become very easy to get into a sort of rhythm and routine where you're collecting a paycheck and you know and look I'm not my mantra has never been go quit your job change the world become you know Tim Ferriss or you know Chris Gillibow or you know world domination and live on a beach in Thailand because I think that's also kind of bullshit too. But what I would say about that is that I think change, you know, I think Eric, my friend Eric Wall said this in his book, and he quoted, you know, the philosopher Sorin Kierkegaard, is that all change is preceded by crisis. And I don't know why that is. You know, part of me wonders,

Starting point is 00:10:12 you know, is the crisis necessary? I mean, even if you look at sort of the work of Joseph Campbell and the hero's journey, right, it's never, it's never, oh, I'm going to change because I woke up one day and decided, you know, I'm done, I'm going to, I'm going to change. It's almost always something that causes it. Like, you need, you know, I mean, at the core of a good story is an inciting incident, right? And I think that, you know, one of the things that happens, you know, where that disproportionate disadvantage gets turned into an advantage is a, is an inciting incident. It makes a lot sense.

Starting point is 00:10:42 Eric Wall, have you seen him speak in person? Oh, yeah, not in person, but I've watched the videos. He's phenomenal. I've been lucky enough to be in the audience for one of his, uh, I don't, it's not even a speech. It's a performance of combination of painting with his hands, videos, music, and then the talking in between, bringing people up on stage, giving away some of the paintings.

Starting point is 00:11:04 I mean, talk about a guy who knows how to put on a show and deliver an incredible message at the same time, just a, just a phenomenal speaker. It's a very, yeah, it's a very rare combo, you know, like I think there's something very... I mean, he's pretty unmistakable. I mean, really. Yeah, Eric is. Yeah, Eric is phenomenal at what he does. And so touching on that and getting into how you started,

Starting point is 00:11:27 and this journey you've been on for the last seven years or so, you just briefly mentioned that you've been fired from every job that you've had, which is, I think when if people learn more about your background for those who are, who are learning about you for the first time on the show, the fact that you're a guy who went to Pepperine to get your MBA, very well-educated, really smart guy who, you know, most would think could have your, pick of roles at any big company and probably start with a pretty nice size salary, you know,

Starting point is 00:11:58 get on that ladder and just keep moving. And that's not the path that you're on. So I'd love to hear your thought process, maybe take us back a little bit to where you started on that path and then completely jumped off of it. Yeah. So, you know, you made it, made some good points, right? So typically when you get out of an MBA program, the idea is that, okay, well, now I'm kind of on the trajectory of the $90,000 to $100,000 a year job.

Starting point is 00:12:26 And, you know, I have friends who've done that and, you know, they're all perfectly good people. And I actually was on that path right after business school. But I started tinkering with this stuff mainly because I needed something to keep me from going insane. And, you know, even when I found, when I, my last day job was in 2010 and, you know, I got fired from that. And at that point, I was kind of like, wait a minute, this is this is no longer. this is no longer an isolated incident. This has happened every single time I've had a job. I think it's time to really reconsider whether this is the right path for me.

Starting point is 00:12:57 And, you know, it takes us back to that whole idea of crisis. You know, so I didn't start out with these like gargantuan death-defying risks and, you know, unmistakable creative as what it is today. Like, it's been a long, you know, arduous sort of journey to get here. And the thing is that I think the major sort of thought process and maybe the bigger takeaway is, is kind of like, is, you know, what you're doing today going to lead you to where you want to be five years from now and 10 years from now? And if the answer is no, then, you know, then you have to really consider it. Because I thought about it, you know, like, I think at that point I was like 31 or 32. And I kind of thought to myself, wow, I'm like, every decision I've made throughout my 20s in the last 10, 12 years has led me to this exact point. If I keep making the same kinds of decisions, I'm going to end up in the exact same place. You know, so I was like, wow. I mean, yeah, okay, if I make different decisions, the outcome is uncertain, but the uncertainty seems a lot better. than the certainty of being fired again, you know. Yeah. So, so that's, that's kind of the thought

Starting point is 00:13:54 process behind it is, you know, is really, I mean, that's the big question you have to ask yourself, is what are you doing to, is what you're doing today going to lead you to where you want to be tomorrow, you know, a year from now and 10 years from now? Why did you always get fired? Um, a lot of different things. I mean, but at the core of it, I think is, is really one really small thing. I mean, the big thing is that I just wasn't engaged in the work, right? Like, the work wasn't interesting to me. Um, I worked on a sales. Yeah, I was going to say, um, A lot of sales jobs, a lot of account support jobs. But the problem is the sales jobs I worked out were just sitting on the phone making cold calls.

Starting point is 00:14:25 And it was just mind-numbing. I just, I was like, I'm not cut out for this. And I think at the core, you know, like one of my mentor said, if you mismatch talent and environment, what happens as performance goes down. And I think ultimately, like, as a creative person who wasn't getting to create, like, none of these work, this work was fulfilling. And, you know, I think that's the real thing for me is that I have to be making things. I have to be working on something creative if I'm not.

Starting point is 00:14:49 I'm incredibly unhappy. And I've realized that. And that's kind of why probably I've been able to sustain the level of creative and the level of the level of output that I have for the last few years. So there's probably somebody listening or many people listening, Sreeny, who are doing exactly what you were doing, literally, exactly that role. And they're okay at it. They don't hate it, but they're just, you know, they're just there.

Starting point is 00:15:15 And I'm guessing right now they're probably, what's going through their mind is what you just said before is what you're doing today and think about what is setting you up for tomorrow. So I would imagine now with the platform you build, 650 plus episodes, best selling book, speaker, everything that you're doing, videos, everything, that you get asked for advice from people quite often, whether it's from emails or in person, about that very aspect of what they're doing. And maybe these people have legitimate responsibilities. They have family, spouse, kids, cars, house, you know, the normal.

Starting point is 00:15:49 things that people grow into. And so the reason I bring that up is because obviously they need to make money. So what type of advice do you give to that exact person listening that has those responsibilities and a job similar to what you had or exactly what you had, but maybe they're also with a similar mindset to yours? I think that, you know, what I would say is you start making an evacuation plan. You know, obviously you don't want to do things where your downside is jail time, bankruptcy, or death. And, you know, you have to figure out, okay, what am I going to do to get out of this situation?

Starting point is 00:16:22 You mean, most people, you know, they like the idea of leaping, but they don't like the idea of planning and the actual work that's involved, you know, and the fact is it's not going to be easy. It's going to be uncertain. It's not guaranteed. And you have to be okay with all of that. Like, you have to learn really kind of, I think, how to manage your psychology. But then it really comes down to, you know, what are the small things that you're doing

Starting point is 00:16:44 every single day? I mean, you know, like I said, I mean, this isn't, this isn't like, the, like, something that happens overnight, like to build unmistakable creative into what it is today took seven years. And, you know, in that time, like I did a lot of freelance work. So I think really it's about saying, okay, what are the ways in which I could leverage my skills to generate even like the smallest amount of income? Because I think the idea, you know, people like, oh, I need to replace my six figure salary, you know, by doing this thing. And maybe you don't replace your six figure salary. Maybe you take less in order to live a more meaningful life. Maybe you change your life.

Starting point is 00:17:17 in order to support, you know, the work that you want to do it. I think that's one of those things that you have to be okay with. But I think it's about microchanges, right? Like, it's not about big change, but very small change. I think that you have to, really, you have to do little things every day. And, you know, it may start with something as simple as, you know, taking the guitar lesson that you've been thinking about for five years, right? It's like, wait, you know, I've always wanted to learn how to play the guitar.

Starting point is 00:17:46 And, you know, to a lot of people, that's kind of, like, well, what the hell does this have to do with changing careers? And I think the thing is that if you want to change, you know, big aspects of your life, you start by changing small aspects of your life. Because so many of us are afraid of risk that we have to build a tolerance for risk. And the way you build a tolerance for risk is by doing small things that, you know, are not scary and, you know, they seem scary in your head. Because the consequences of all these weird chances that we want to take are almost never as great as we imagine them to be in our heads. It's like the compound effect. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:18:15 Yeah. Absolutely. When it comes to, you know, thinking about how you build a house, you build a foundation, and then it's brick by brick. And the process for doing the type of work that we do, Serini, is that this is, there is an immense amount of hard work that goes into, for me, and I'm going to ask you about your prep process for interviews because I think that's, as a fellow podcaster, I'm really interested in that. But there's an immense amount of work that goes into putting something like this together, and then you kind of branching off into multiple. different areas of from a podcast to writing like I mentioned. So what what all streams right now of revenue have you created and how did it get started? Was it just a podcast? Was it something else? Or take me back to the very beginning when you realize, you know what? I am not cut out to work at a place where I keep getting fired. I know it wasn't an overnight success. You said it's taken

Starting point is 00:19:10 seven years. So let's go back to the beginning because that's the place where a lot of people are. And the toughest part typically is getting started. You know, I've learned that just. James Clears talked a lot about the hardest, the biggest point of friction is right at the beginning when you, when you need to get started. It's like when you're going for a run. Once you're out on the run, it's much, it's never easy, but it's much easier than than lacing up the shoes and starting. So talk to me about the very beginning stages of unmistakable creative. Yeah. So, you know, I, um, I, you know, as I told you, I, I graduated from business school and I had a summer basically to do, you know, whatever I wanted because I didn't

Starting point is 00:19:46 have anything but time on my hands and I was applying for jobs. So every day I would write. And then I started this weekly interview series called interviews with up and coming bloggers. And once a week, I would publish an interview. It was 30 minutes. It literally was an MP3 file with a link to a blog post and that's a download here. And about 13 interviews in a guy named Sid Zavar emailed me. He said, hey, I think that you know, you may be actually onto something here, but you should spin it out into a separate site from your blog and do a site that's just interviews. And that's how we started with blogcast FM. So it was literally the willingness to do this very little thing that was not incredibly time-consuming and not incredibly like death-defying, but could potentially pay off in the

Starting point is 00:20:27 long run every single day. And every single day turned into twice a week. And twice a week turned into three years and three years turned into four. And, you know, four we went from being blogcast FM to unmistakable creative. You know, you asked about revenue stream. So a couple of different things have basically been sort of my major sources of income. I think, I knew that, you know, and I don't know that, like, how true this will remain. Maybe it will change depending on what the demand from our own audience is. But, like, I, the whole idea of, hey, I'm going to start a business where I teach you how to become me, that just never appealed to me.

Starting point is 00:21:01 Something was just off about it. I think it was completely out of alignment with my values. It felt it just didn't feel right to me. And so I, you know, as a, and, you know, the, I think the downside of that is that it's taken as a lot longer to monetize than the average person. like we, you know, we waited. We waited and said, you know, ultimately we're going to do things that are in alignment. So we've had a lot of different things that have generated revenue for us. I mean, you know, now it's a bit different in that it's more sort of like we can say, okay, these are sort of the big three. But, you know, first, I'm an author, as you know, I got a book deal with Penguin, I think two years ago. And I'm literally in the process of starting a second book. The first one just came out in August of this year. Another one is speaking. I'm now getting paid to speak. And that literally, really just started very recently. It's back that started this year. Like up until this year,

Starting point is 00:21:49 pretty much all I was doing was free speaking gigs, you know? And then I signed with the Speakers Bureau, uh, who I was introduced to by David Burkus, who introduced you and I. And then, you know, we have sponsors for the show and we've done other stuff. Like, and then there's been one-off projects, you know, like we did a live event and we did an animated series. Um, so, you know, it's kind of been a mix of all of this thing. So if the podcast is the hub, you've got all these spokes and the spokes all generate revenue as well. And then, you know, sponsors on the podcast. So those were the revenue sources. And, and, you know, like I said, they've all taken time to build. When did you decide, you know, what, I need to, I need to put this into book format?

Starting point is 00:22:27 Okay. So 2013 rolled around and, you know, I was doing a lot of writing. And I mean, I've always been a prolific writer. Like, I read a thousand words every day. And I was starting to have a lot of ideas, you know, and I was publishing them as Facebook status updates. And then one day I thought, you know, I'm going to compile all these and put them into a book called The Art of Being unmistakable because I'd given a talk at a conference called The Art of Being Unmistakable, which is funny because that talk has evolved significantly now. But yeah, I mean, that, you know, that ended up leading to the self-published book called The Art of Being Unmistakable. And it was, you know, I ended up on The Glenn Beck Show. The book sold 15,000 copies. And then the self-published

Starting point is 00:23:00 book, a year after it came out, you know, a piece that I had written on Medium got the attention of an acquisitions editor at Penguin. And that ended up being sort of the path to the book deal. So, I mean, again, you know, I think it goes back to this theme of consistent creativity, like constantly creating. It was never, you know, hey, one undone type of thing. Like, you know what I mean? And there are some aspects of this where luck is involved, right? Like, we were really early to the world of podcasting long before it became this thing that it is now. And so, you know, you've got a lot of combinations of things that kind of worked in my favorite, you know, luck timing and consistency.

Starting point is 00:23:36 A thousand words a day. You kind of, you said that quickly. I think it's important to note that. And then you mentioned being consistently creative. The ability to consistently sit down or maybe you stand up at a stand-up desk and write a thousand words a day, I don't think that should be shortchanged as far as how impactful that could be on anyone's life. When did you start doing that?

Starting point is 00:24:05 Probably at the end of 2012. And, you know, it's funny because, like, part of why I was late, as I was, I was literally writing something this morning and I was like, holy shit, this is good. Like, I'm finally making progress. And I lost it. I can't find it. Like, I was scrambling and, you know, like, I'm getting text messages. I knew I had to talk to you at 10. I hadn't eaten breakfast. I'm like, this is really pissing me off. But, you know, it's just a habit at this point. Like, it's not something I have to think about. Plus, it's, you know, like, I think you've spoken to James Cleary. And he talks about this, you know, systems versus goals.

Starting point is 00:24:33 I have a system, which is a thousand words a day. Like, I know, okay, this is what I'm going to do every day. And as a byproduct, it actually makes it much easier to write books because a thousand words is a dependable strategy that I'm in complete control over. Everything else is kind of what shows up on the page if the words are any good. None of that matters. You know, I think Julia Cameron had a really good way of looking at this. She talks about, you know, what she calls the morning pages in the artist's way.

Starting point is 00:24:56 And, you know, the idea behind it is very uncensored writing where you don't judge yourself and you just keep going. You know, the goal is simply, in my mind, the goal is. is simply to get to the thousand words, nothing else. And, you know, the thing is, you know, the other thing that probably is worth mentioning is that Stephen Pressfield talks about a concept called resistance, right? Which is really all these different things that we think of as resistance. But, you know, and we do all these things that we, you know, like we have life hacks and habit hacks

Starting point is 00:25:20 and crystals and candles and all sorts of inspiration and new age bullshit. And ultimately, the main thing that actually defeats resistance is sitting down and just doing the damn work. Once you get started, you know, like you said earlier, the biggest point of friction for people is getting started. And what's interesting is that, you know, if you get to a thousand words, what you'll find is that eventually you'll kick into flow and the words actually start to get good. But you can't put the pressure on yourself to make those first thousand words any good. And that's something that I still have to work on. There are days when I struggle with it.

Starting point is 00:25:48 But it's my process. Like it's my rhythm. And I think every creator has a rhythm. I think it's important to find what yours is. When I'm working on a book, for example, like I've gotten to the point where I'm like, okay, I kind of have now understand my own sort of psychology and habits. I'm like, okay, when I'm working on a book that means I am, you know, no, no email before 1 o'clock in the afternoon, no social media after 6 or 7 p.m. I'm getting to the point where it's like no screens after 7 other than, you know, watching TV in my theater on Netflix, but no phones, no internet, mainly because, you know, what I'm trying to understand is, you know, what does that do to your sort of creative efforts, right? Like, how does that create discipline? So I think that, you know,

Starting point is 00:26:31 I abide by a pretty rigid set of routines and rituals. And here's the interesting thing about this set of routines and rituals, right? It's like I know them and they, and sometimes they fail me. And there are days when I screw up and there are days when I take my laptop in my bedroom before I go to sleep, even though I know that totally screws you. Or there are days when I'm kind of like, okay, I'm on Facebook at 8 o'clock in the morning. I probably didn't need to do that, you know, stuff like that. But I'm, you know, I think that that's a big part of it is just it's a discipline and it's a practice.

Starting point is 00:26:59 So systems versus goals. What is it, what is a, you mentioned briefly some of the, it seems like some rules you have put in place for yourself. Yeah. You may not have a typical day anymore, but if you were to lay out a standard day from the time you wake up to the time you go to bed, what, what is it, what would it look like? So there's actually another piece on Medium I wrote about this as it's titled the Eight Step Daily Routine that's enabled me to write three books and, you know, write hundreds of articles. So basically here's how it goes. I mean, you know, by let's start with the end of the day and then we'll can start start at the beginning. So at the end of the day, like 7 p.m. or whatever, I'll use a tool called, hey, focus, and I'll block everything, which means no distracting websites, no apps, nothing.

Starting point is 00:27:41 Like, it's a great tool. And I block everything for 13 to 14 hours. So that way, right when I turn on my laptop in the morning, I can't even get online or I can't get on any of these other services. But the other thing is that before I ever turn on a device, like I don't, I think it's a really bad idea to start your day with devices because you're not meant to start your day. being inundated by so much input. So before I ever turn on a device, the first thing that I do is I meditate for 15 minutes, then I drink coffee, then I read a physical book, then I write by hand in a moleskin journal, and then I actually do the 1,000 words. Once the 1,000 words are done, you know, depending on what I have, like you notice that you and I are talking at 10 a.m. Pacific time.

Starting point is 00:28:18 Nothing on my calendar is available before 10 a.m. Pacific time. Even my editor at Penguin doesn't call me before 10 a.m. Because she knows that, you know, mornings are for work. So that's that, you know, and then, you know, I write until about, 930 or 10. I write, maybe not always till 930 or 10. Like some days I'll write until like 8 and then I'll go and hit the gym for an hour or so. And then I'll come back and I'll do interviews.

Starting point is 00:28:40 Then I'll do usually the afternoons like after 1 o'clock will be, you know, for less sort of creatively demanding work kind of like editing and that kind of stuff. And you know, I think by 5 o'clock or so I'm kind of like, by 132 o'clock I try to take a break and do another hour of reading. And then, you know, maybe I'll play video games depending on kind of where I'm at, mentally, you know, like if I'm kind of like, all right, I'm done for the day. I'm just going to sit down and play Madden on Xbox. So I'll do that. And then, you know, like I'll check email maybe one last time. But now I'm getting at the point where I'm like, okay, I don't even need

Starting point is 00:29:11 to check email, you know, more than once a day, which is around 4 o'clock. So, so, you know, that's kind of in a nutshell what it is. What do you think about detoxing? Michael Hyatt, with one on a two-week vacation you just told me about. And, you know, no phones, no email, nothing. So you're reading physical books, writing in most kind of type journals, enjoying the time with his wife, enjoying the nature and scenery. He was like a cabin with a lake in Tennessee. And he told me that he was so full and charged up and ready to go when he got back that now he will always ensure that there are many moments throughout the year where there's a full-blown detox. This is something that I absolutely

Starting point is 00:29:56 need to do and have not done. And you mentioned not, not like essentially over stimulating yourself with electronics or your phone early in the morning, which is something I certainly need to implement. I'd love to learn your thoughts when it comes to this, this process of potentially detoxing. Because I think a lot of people struggle with this. Yeah. I mean, I think you should be doing some semblance of a detox daily, you know, that's, that's, I think it's a great idea. I think that, you know, how can you hear yourself think if you're inundated with other stuff constantly? Uh-huh. The feeling of reading and writing in a journal, because I write a lot like on, even on my phone on an Evernote because it's simple to have it, you know, go between your computer and your phone and it's always right there and it's easy to pull up in a journal sometimes you don't have in your hand.

Starting point is 00:30:46 But writing in a journal, the five-minute journal, something I do in the mornings. I don't know if you've used that before. I've heard of morning pages from Brian Copplin and talk about where he doesn't like lift his hand from the page. just writes and writes and writes. I think that's what morning pages are all about. But then reading from a real book, maybe with a pen or a highlight or sometimes that it's right in the margins or to highlight, is just a different feeling when you sit down, turn the TV off, make sure your phone is nowhere near or turned off. It's a game changer that I think a lot of us really don't do.

Starting point is 00:31:18 But when you do, it's amazing the way you feel when you complete it. Yeah, I completely agree. I mean, I couldn't agree more. I mean, that's, you know, I think that that's a huge part of my process. And I think when you block distractions and you find that you're able to just get into these deeper and deeper states of flow. And once you do, there's no going back from that. Like, you'll, you'll appreciate it so much more.

Starting point is 00:31:37 Like, you get to the end of the day and you're like, okay, that was a worthwhile day as opposed to a day when you spent, you know, the entire day screwing around on Facebook. Yeah. What about surfing for you? Surfing is a huge part. I mean, you know, it's a disc, it's actually, you know, you're talking about unplugging. So I think it's a very relevant thing because, you know, surfing forces you to unplug. It's not like you can have phones in the water.

Starting point is 00:31:56 You know, and I personally, like, you know, there are people who are like building apps and stuff and watches. And, you know, I'm glad we've kept technology out of the water. I hope we never bring it into the water, you know, because I think it's an important, it's an important detox for people. And so it's the, you know, the thing is like when I'm stuck and when I can't come up with ideas, that's always where I'll turn to. Where does that come from?

Starting point is 00:32:18 I started surfing when I was a student at Pepperdine. And like I caught a wave in Brazil and, you know, this was my semester abroad. And I was like, wow, I actually, you know, go to business school and a world-class surf destination. So I should, you know, make this a habit. And so I came back and I bought a board in a wetsuit. And, you know, that was in 2009. And I've been surfing ever since. And, you know, it's definitely one of those things that kind of has defined my life.

Starting point is 00:32:45 I mean, it's enriched and defined my life. I mean, it's a big, big part of who I am. I know you're big on also when it comes to looking at childhood memories. And I love to learn from you how your childhood memories potentially impacted you as you progress. Because I don't want to speak for you, but I have to believe that did you think, okay, I need to go the traditional route of go to college and then go to a great business school and then go be a consultant and make 120K? you know, like, what were, or was there something in your childhood where you thought, I just, I don't know if that's my path, but I guess that's the path I'll go on. I'm curious to learn about some of your childhood memories and how that impacted you later on in life. You know, I mean, maybe a few, a few sort of significant things are the fact that I moved constantly.

Starting point is 00:33:38 My dad's a college professor, so we moved a lot. That was a big one. Because, and so as a result, like, I think the idea that, you know, one thing forever was was just kind of. you know, like after a while it got to the point where I was like, okay, I'm like, I'm one of these people who doesn't want one thing forever because it's kind of how I was raised, you know. It was weird to not have like sort of this place. So like throughout my childhood, I kept me. I mean, it's not a coincidence I think that I've built a platform that allows me to never stop meeting new people. That's one thing I think that. So you have that, I think, which is a big

Starting point is 00:34:08 influence. That is very sort of nomadic childhood, you know, Australia, Canada, Texas, Southern California. So, you know, I think the desire to travel and the desire to constantly have this like sense of adventure in my life, I think, was definitely a result of the childhood that I had. The other thing is, you know, I mean, Indian parents, you know, I think the thing that probably I've inherited from them is work ethic. You know, no matter what it is that we, you know, we were taught, like we, we were always encouraged to work really hard at whatever we did, good grades, you know. My sister and I were both straight A students in school and at least in high school. She was in college. I wasn't. But I think that those two things, you know, like, I think the thing that I gained from all of that is an ability, you know, where does my discipline come from? Like, I think that's been, you know, that discipline, I think is something that like I was enforced as a child and now I'm able to sustain it because of that.

Starting point is 00:35:01 So interestingly, I had pretty much the complete opposite childhood as you, never moved, grew up in the same spot. It moved around briefly after college to play actually football. when I got done with college, but really stayed in a similar spot. And I'm curious from someone like you who has, who live this nomadic child as you put it, how has that impacted your ability to form deep relationships with people as now you've matured and gotten older since I don't know if the mindset would be. I'm trying to put myself in your shoes. Maybe I'm projecting.

Starting point is 00:35:36 But we would think like, well, if I'm going to move anyway, why put in the time to form a deep relationship? other than just maybe a surface level one because I know in a year I'm probably not going to be here. Okay. So before we do that, I have to ask, since you played football, are you a fan of the TV show Friday Night Lights? You know, I've only watched a little bit of it, but I've been told by many people that I should watch that show, but I've only seen a couple episodes. Okay. I'm morbidly curious. Like, I play Madden.

Starting point is 00:36:04 I watch Friday Night Lights, but I couldn't tell you a damn thing about what's going on in actual football. But you play Madden a lot? Oh, yeah. Yeah, totally. So my entire knowledge of the NFL is based on whatever version of Madden I have. It's so realistic now that I've heard there are quarterbacks in college and the NFL that are coming to the coaches saying, Coach, we got to implement this play or install this play because I use it on Madden and it works. And people are literally doing it.

Starting point is 00:36:29 It's insane. It's crazy. But I mean, hey, the games are advanced now, you know. Anyway. Yeah, it's mind blowing. It's like watching actual TV. But, you know, I think maybe the thing that it's given me is an ability to navigate. and weave in and out of social groups very easily.

Starting point is 00:36:44 Like, I don't, you know, I think that's maybe the biggest thing is that I, and that's probably what allows me to get to the level of depth that I do with my guess is that I've been forced to make new friends in so many situations that it's kind of like, all right, cool. So, you know, I think that that, I don't think it, it hasn't had the effect that you, you know, might have projected, which is, oh, you know, like, why bother getting close to anybody? I think it's actually had the opposite effect, to be honest.

Starting point is 00:37:06 So do you, do you feel like you have this, you have a good core group of really close friends that you can count. Yeah, I do. I do now. I mean, you know, and I think that's one of the weirder things about my life is those people I have discovered like late, late in my adult life within the last like three or four years. Like my business partner, Brian is probably my best friend and, you know, the person that I'm closest to and really kind of trust the most.

Starting point is 00:37:28 Yeah. So I think it's in that sense, it's very, that's the impact, I would say. It's actually been positive, not negative. Okay. I also bring that up because Tim Urban, do you follow Tim's work at Waitbut Why.com? Have you heard of him? So I've heard of him. I've been meaning to watch his TED Talk. I know of wait, but why. His writing is incredible and you should have him on your podcast. But anyway, I talked to him and then for my podcast and also read a lot of his work. And he wrote this really interesting post on making

Starting point is 00:37:56 friends, which sounds like a weird title, but he really dives deep when he writes a post. He has a ton of research. They take months and months to write. Anyway, he said why it is very hard to make friends as you get as you get older and out of college. And the reason why is because one of the ways you develop close friendships is to spend like just laying around time with people, not informal times with people watching TV, hanging out, whatever. And that happens usually in high school and college and not as much when you become a young professional because you start getting, you know, whether you get married or whatever happens and you only see people every once in a while. And then every time you see them, you're just catching up, right? Oh, what have you been

Starting point is 00:38:34 up to the last six weeks? And so I just like, it was interesting. I'm like, you know what, that's, that's really true. It's like the places you spend a lot of times, I think of like a college dorm, those become great friends because you really get to deeply know them, the ins and outs of them, not just catching up with them every time you see them, but you're spending boring time with them too. And I thought that was, that was an interesting way to view friendship. Yeah, yeah, no, it definitely is. And yeah, he's right. I mean, it is harder in adult life and you have to make more of an effort. But I think that, you know, that's, that's like there are people, I always find it odd that people are like, I have all the friends that I need.

Starting point is 00:39:08 I'm like, that's weird to me that you want to stop meeting new people at some point. Yeah. So if you're cool, we have a little bit more time. Let's let's, I want to talk about, you know, publishing your work in a book. So civilly, I know, so you, you, you, you do explain how it work. You wrote it once and then kind of republished it as unmistakable just this year? No. So basically what happened was I self-published this.

Starting point is 00:39:32 book called The Art of Being Unmistakable. And, you know, that did freakishly well, like unexpectedly and it led to a book deal. And so when we started, the idea was that we were going to revise the self-published book. So, you know, my editor was like, you have six months. I'm like, but then by the time, you know, we had written the introduction and even the first chapter, I was like, wow, this is like a whole new book. Like, I'm writing a completely different book from scrap. So it ended up, you know, it was called unmistakable, but it was, you know, a totally different book.

Starting point is 00:39:58 So, yeah, I mean, that and sort of the core idea behind unmistakable and really sort of The core ethos of everything that we do is this idea that when you're doing something unmistakable, it's so distinctive that is immediately recognized as your work. And as a byproduct, it makes the entire concept of competition irrelevant. Nobody could do what you do in the way that you do it. And of course, you know, we talked about Eric Wall earlier. He kind of falls into that category. My friend Mars Dorian, if you've ever, you know, seen his work.

Starting point is 00:40:23 Like, he does a lot of the branding work for Unmistakable Creative. Like, you can take one look at anything you does. And you're like, okay, yeah, Mars did that. I could just instantly recognize it as his. So there's great power in that. And so we we kind of looked at the, you know, the looked at that entire sort of ethos through the lens of surfing and creativity and said, okay, you know, how does unmistakable relate to making work that's creative and why is it so valuable? And, you know, in a world that is incredibly noisy where everybody's trying to get our attention, being distinctive makes a huge difference. So if somebody who hadn't heard of you before said, I really like that, Sereni, now how are you unmistakable?

Starting point is 00:41:00 How am I unmistakable? Yes. Okay. So, you know, a friend asked me this question. I think what I, the answer that I gave him was perspective. I think that what I've gotten is a perspective that has been shaped by hundreds of people. So I've been able to connect dots and mix other people's ideas into a perspective that is very much my own. And I think that ultimately, you know, if you look at what makes everybody unmistakable, it comes down to their own perspective, like in their own point of view. That makes so much sense. I really like it. Hey, one more question. When David Burkis, and by the way, thank you, Dave. I appreciate you putting us together. When Dave sent the email introducing us to each other,

Starting point is 00:41:36 and you saw that my show was called The Learning Leader Show, what was the first thought that came to mind? Well, I mean, I think, you know, I'm not sure I had an initial thought right then, but now that you've asked the question, I think really leadership is a commitment to ongoing learning throughout your life, right? The best leaders are the best learners. Like, they're committed to lifelong learning. And we talked about, you know, what is it that these people with interest in careers

Starting point is 00:42:00 have in common lifelong learning. I think that that is at the core. Like I think the idea that you are so good at what you do that you've arrived and you don't need anything else is actually very dangerous. I think that's ego at work. Yep. Completely agree. I love it.

Starting point is 00:42:14 And thank you so much, Shrini, for being here. Where would you send my listeners to learn more about you online? UnmistakableCreative.com. And then you can find the podcast in iTunes, Stitcher, all the places where podcasts are. Perfect. Thanks again, man, for being here. I absolutely want to continue this dialogue as we both progress. I love your story.

Starting point is 00:42:34 I love what you're doing. And I'm excited to see what happens in the future for you. All right. Thanks, Ryan. All right. Thanks, Rain. Bye. Bye.

Starting point is 00:42:40 This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to Learning Leadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out. to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again and we'll see you next time on the Learning Leader Show.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 181: Srini Rao - How To Be Unmistakably Creative

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