The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 193: Erik Wahl - How To Rediscover Your Creative Genius

Episode Date: February 27, 2017

    Episode 193: Erik Wahl - How To Rediscover Your Creative Genius Subscribe on iTunes  or Stitcher Radio The Learning Leader Show "Performing is not an act of extroversion, it's an act of connection." In This Episode, You Will Learn: The fascination with "live theatre" -- Erik is a performer on stage (art, speaking, message, theatrical) "Transport so the molecules in the room change" How to reverse engineer what we love What happened after Erik was told that "Art was not his strength" Relationship with money and success -- how it can be unhealthy Why artists have a different take on life... A life of philosophical gratitude "I built this plane as I flew it" Pursue mastery... Be insatiably curious on how to connect with audiences The power of vulnerability and why you should share more of yourself First paid gig? $1,000 in LA -- "I probably sucked." The tipping point to kick off his speaking/performing career The definition of being introverted... Erik is an introvert.  He gains energy from alone time... Stage time is where the energy is spent Erik's writing process -- "Verbal Vomit" -- Fortunate to have great team of editors Why we should all study acting and stand up comedians Thinking, "What will fascinate the audience?" Pre speech routine -- Stretching, meditation.  Taking energy from "Me and giving it to them" Decluttering of the mind. Meditate. Think at a higher level "Art is about producing... Thinking... Expanding consciousness" Understanding the value of being uncomfortable "Money is not important to us, we do not sell my paintings" Why audiences are drawn to authenticity and trust Why we should rehearse creativity on a regular basis How much does Erik get paid per speech now? $40,000 New ideas? Holographs, Drones, Cirque Du Soleil "Pursue excellence, pursue mastery... Let the money come where it may" "Creativity is a muscle that must face resistance to create more... Be stronger." Continue Learning: Follow Erik on Twitter: @ErikWahl Read: The Spark and The Grind Read: Unthink: Rediscover Your Creative Genius Join our Facebook Group: The Learning Leader Community To Follow Me on Twitter: @RyanHawk12 You may also like these episodes: Episode 078: Kat Cole – From Hooters Waitress To President of Cinnabon Episode 071: Nate Boyer - Green Beret, Texas Football, The NFL Episode 179: How To Sustain Excellence - The Best Answers From 178 Questions Episode 107: Simon Sinek – Leadership: It Starts With Why Did you enjoy the podcast? If you enjoyed hearing Erik Wahl on the show, please don't hesitate to send me a note on Twitter or email me. Episode edited by the great J Scott Donnell The Learning Leader Show is supported by FreshBooks: FreshBooks is offering a 30 day, unrestricted free trial to my listeners. To claim it, just go to FreshBooks.com/Learning and enter LEARNING LEADER in the "How Did You Hear About Us?" section.

It's all crafted inside of this idea of performance and creating a disruptive moment, an aha moment, a wow moment, and continuing to be able to do that throughout the course of the presentation. So it's not just one, but it's multiple elements of connecting thought to emotion, to philosophy, to reflection, to projection. Hey and welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. This conversation quickly has vaulted into one of my top five favorite episodes that I've done through two and a half years of this podcast. I love talking with Eric Wall, an internationally recognized graffiti artist, author, and entrepreneur. Eric redefines the term keynote speaker pulling from his history as both a businessman and an artist. He's grown to become one of the most sought after speakers.

in the world. I've been lucky enough to be in the audience for one of Eric's performances, his art, his painting, his message, the way he delivers it. Incredible. Few of the topics we got into. Why we need to rehearse creativity constantly

and how to do that. Then the incredible story of Eric being told that art was not his strength and how he responded. And then the process from earning $1,000 per speech to what he now gets. And I promise it's worth every penny. One slight change, too. I hit record immediately after us connecting via Skype.

This is as raw, real, and authentic as it gets. Ladies and gentlemen, I love this one with Eric Wall. Yo, the amazing gatekeeper who guards my calendar because I'm a huge introvert and don't do a lot of interviews or podcasts. and your persistence, your kindness, your openness, and then me just kind of looking at what you've done, your body of work, has really made me excited about this opportunity. So I just want to acknowledge how impressed I am with who you are and what you're doing and how you've pursued me.

I'm just really grateful. Wow. Well, thank you so much. It means a lot to me to hear that. I've been looking forward to this one for more than two years. It's amazing when I went back and looked through the string of emails between Tasha and I, and that stems from the fact. By the way, we are recording, so I just want to make sure you're okay with that.

Like, it's live. This is a real stuff. That's why it's cool. Exactly. Exactly. This is authentic. And I guess I want people to know how much I appreciate you that I don't do these all that often. but it's because of how persistent you've been over the last two years.

And I'm just, I'm honored and impressed with what you've done. Thank you. And I'll tell you, Eric, where this came from is that I was one of the fortunate ones who got to see you perform in person. I call it perform. I guess you were labeled at that point a motivational speaker. And I just don't think that does you justice. given, I left the room that day, man.

And I don't know if I've been as impacted as much as I was that day, maybe ever, the combination of how you present your message to all of us in the audience. And quite frankly, this was the last day. Let me frame this for everybody listening. This is a, and I know you do this all the time, but for me, this is the last day of a pretty long national sales meeting where there was a lot of celebrating going on. and it was in the morning. So it was a rough time for just about everybody in that room. And you get the slot in the last day when there's a lot of people who have probably been partying quite a bit.

And it just blew us all away, man, between the painting and your message and the video you played behind some of the painting. I just, I couldn't help but say, I have to find a way to talk to this guy. I'm so impressed. Cool. Well, thank you for waiting to the very end of that meeting. I know anytime there's those conferences, there's always more. meeting atrophy. I'm wanting to get back to my family. I'll, you know, bail early on some things,

but the fact that you waited till the end that the rest of the audience, anywhere who stayed there, waited to the end and got to experience it, I'm just grateful because I know there's a lot of drop off and it was a cool moment for me. That was a, uh, yeah, 2000 and 15. Was that one? No, it was, um, I think it was like in 14 maybe. Yeah, you were, you before then. And I, we picked up your book, Unthink at the time. I believe that's what. it was right after that. And you, I remember, I don't know if I want to share too many of your secrets, but how you, you know, you interact really well with the crowd and bring people on stage. But, you know, now that we're talking about, I was going to actually get to this near the end,

but since we're here, and this is just how our conversation started. I hit record as soon as, you know, we, uh, you picked up on Skype. I want to learn about your, your process for putting together your, what I would call your art, your performance when you're up on stage, sharing your message in the way that you involve both video, music, and obviously your painting. How did you come up with that style? Because I have not seen it before. Sure. It probably stems from the fact that I cringe a little bit when someone calls me a motivational speaker. I'm not a big fan of motivational speaking. I get it. You know, there's a lot of rah-rah, and I think it inflates people, and that's good. There's a lot of value to that in the short term.

I've never wanted to be that guy. What fascinates me is live music experiences, live theater, kind of the humanity of a connection, of a shared experience. And so I think if I were to be tactical about this and say to other speakers, what I did is I reverse engineered what I love. So I'm not a big fan of, let's say, keynote speaking, opening, you know, quote or joke, give your thesis, three developing points, actual takeaways, and then a closing summation. That just wasn't how I wanted to approach the game. What I loved is I like to study comedians and their timing. I love to go to live concerts, be in the pit, and as I watch, these audiences have just come alive. They're fascinated. They can't get enough because it's an hour of almost transportation where they have

left their reality, their frustrations, their day job, and they've been transported into this new place where almost the molecules in the room have changed. And so as I continue to study performers, actors, musicians, comedians, directors, that's really where I've developed a lot of what it is a performance, even though I know it is hard to define because it's also a keynote presentation. I am delivering actionable substance on topics of value for the client, for the audience, but it's all crafted inside of this idea of performance and creating a disruptive moment, an aha moment, a wow moment, and continuing to be able to do that throughout the course of the presentation. So it's not just one, but it's mostly,

elements of connecting thought to emotion, to philosophy, to reflection, to projection. So all of those elements kind of woven together in a finely crafted, disciplined way that end up being a, let's call it a performance, even though that, I guess for the sake of making it simple or understanding, I think that's what we would call it as a performance, but it is a keynote presentation, is how I'm often booked, as the opening keynote speaker for a conference or a closing keynote speaker to kick things off or close things up on a high note. How many do you do a year? We cut it. I do 100 a year.

So I've done that for the last 12 years. And that's been a real discipline for my wife and who's the CEO, because I've also got three of my own boys and two. other boys who live with us. And so I know you're a father of five. There's a lot of balance in life. And so what I'll do is, you know, I'm very fortunate that we've, you know, I work with a lot of bureaus and agents and meeting planners and Tasha books all of my dates. And she books them around, you know, we reserve, I block off important soccer games, important meetings, important birthdays, anniversaries, and we do it together. But what we'll do is, you know, let's say I do roughly eight shows a month. I'll go out and do a show in Dallas and then Miami and then

Orlando and then D.C. in four consecutive days. And then I'll come home and I'll be a dad and a husband for 10 days. And that's where I'll write and create. And then I'll pack back up and head back out on tour and do another connected tour of four consecutive days. And fortunately, we've had enough inquiries and offers where we can turn down dates that don't make sense for us, maybe overseas or once they're difficult to get to or that might compromise something of value to us as a family. So we've learned to disappoint the right people along the way in building this ship as we fly it. Wow. So, Eric, one of the things I love learning about, and I think this is helpful based on the type of people that listen to this show is if you take it back to the very beginning, I know you worked in the corporate world for, I believe, about 10 years. And you were even told as a student, a younger child by a teacher that, well, I want to make sure I quote it right. Art was not your strength is what you were told. Is that correct? Yeah. I was, I was seven. You know, I, I, I,

the memory for me was my, it made an impression on my ego, my identity that, oh, okay, then I need to migrate towards that, which I do well at. And I, you know, I was good at the spelling test. I got 20 out of 20. I did well on math test. And I was very much affirmed for that. I wasn't affirmed for art. And I, she was, I'm sure, a very well-meaning.

She was, she was a beautiful teacher. I know her, and even though she meant well, and that's even as parents, we might say things that are meaning to be guiding or encouraging, but our children might not receive it in that same way on how they offered that extension of their identity. You know, when we say, oh, you know, the sky's not black, it's actually got blues in it, right? Or don't you want to color longer hair on the girl or shouldn't the boy be playing with, you know, a toy of, we make comments to guys, And I'm sure that's what she was doing. I didn't take it that way.

And so I withdrew. And I stopped painting, drawing, creating, singing, dancing, freely expressing myself. And I moved towards operationally efficiently knocking out grades. And I got pretty good at that because I was a hard worker because I had great academic affirmation. And so that's what I migrated towards. And so you go on and take the traditional route, so to speak, and that leads you to a normal, regular probably, well, at least what you thought was a comfortable slash safe job. And when was that?

What years are we talking here that you kind of wanted the corporate route and it looked like? And then talk me through how it ended and you got onto this new journey. Sure. I went to college, entered pre-med because my father was a doctor, worked my ass off, took a couple of chem biology, and realized, oh, those are hard. If the doctor isn't what I'm cut out to do, and I know that it's, you know, an eight-year process for PhD and internships and even more. And so I thought, well, maybe I'll adjust and I switched over to business. And that ended up working out very well for me. And then got a job.

And the whole process was to get good grades so that I could get a good job so that I could get a good amount of money so that I could be secure and so that I could maybe retire early and then start living life. And that formula, that's the American dream. That's what we're encouraged to do, and it makes sense unless too much of our identity is consumed by this idea of success, which ended up being a false oasis for me, there's no way that I ever would have achieved success. It would always have been too far out. And so there was never an amount of joy or celebration or happiness. A lot of my happiness was centered around, financial security. And even though at parties, if you would have met me, I, you know, in my 20s, I would have said, you know, I've got a good job. But family is the most important thing to me. And that was my company line. And it worked well. However, my life didn't really reflect it. You know, I worked seven to seven. And when a good day for me really was if I closed a deal, I was happy. If the stock market went up, I was happy. If my net,

worth increased, I was happy. If I lost a deal, man, I was unhappy. If the stock market went down or my individual stocks went down, I was pissed. It was just an unhealthy relationship with money. And money, it's neither good nor bad. It just is an energy. It's a way by which we provide ourselves security, nourishment, able to help others. But my relationship with money and success, what was unhealthy at the time. I didn't realize it. I thought it was fine until I lost everything after the dot-com bomb. And I realized that was my identity. That was my ego, was my security. I was addicted to security. And once my 401K, my kids' college education, my future was disrupted and taken away from me, it was a very dark, hard, suffering time for me, which is where I turned

to art. Fortunately, it wasn't something I leapt into the arts. It was a slow crawl, but through spending time with artists, I saw, man, they just see life a little bit differently. They have a different philosophical take. It's not about consumption. It wasn't about financial success. There was more of a philosophical almost gratitude for life that I had maybe talked about in theory but not fully experienced. And so I had nothing. And so it was really a great place to start. I had more in common with them than I did with people that had a lot of money at the time. But what I also noticed was is that these artists, even though they had these great ideas, sometimes these brilliant products or songs or lyrics or art, they also had a, a,

a little bit of self-absorption or almost depression because the world didn't get them. And that's when I realized it wasn't either or it was yes and. There's a lot to the practicality and the discipline of what I'd learned as a structured student, but there was also a lot to this element of free-flowing, imaginative, expansive thinking. And that's really where this whole idea was born from, where so many of my writings were born from and what this presentation ended up being. I never went to speaking school or art school. I built this plane and invented it as I flew it based on what really I liked what I was drawn towards not what had been a historical best practice. And so I've gone very unconventional

routes by which to, in my mind, pursue mastery. Just I'm insatiably curious about, how to connect with audiences through film, through speaking, through art, through writing, through poetry. And that connection to my curiosity or beginner's mind or this idea of just wanting to learn more, I think, has been what's driven a lot of what others would call my success. I just call it my journey. I'm grateful that others are, that it resonates with them, that they also find shared experience. And I think that's what it is. It's just shared experience. And that's why my story resonates. And it was interesting. One of my mentors, Brian Buffini, I used to just talk about innovation and creativity from the stage, maybe paint a little bit. And he pulled me aside.

He said, hey, you're really a fantastic natural communicator. But I think he's, it would be really valuable if you actually shared a bit more of your story because it's relatable. Not because someone was told they couldn't draw, but because suffering is a shared experience. And, you know, mine happened to be a loss of identity or ego. And that can happen through a broken relationship. It can happen through very challenging health situations for ourselves or for others. It can happen through, you know, a loss of finances. like for me. And so it's suffering comes in a lot of different ways, but that shared experience of

suffering and being able to work through it to find a new place of higher ground and new light and new ideas really was a pivoting point for me that he as a mentor shared that and I became, that was hard for me to share at the beginning. It was just weird for me to share. You know, woe as me. I didn't want it to be a woe as me or look at my sad story and now the audience is all down. But it's a moment of just reflecting back and I'm holding up a mirror. And the audience is probably at that point, just recall in a very specific moment in their life where they experienced a similar setback. One of their children experienced a similar setback or obstacle or a friend. And so it's that connection that brings us together and makes the presentation not a lecture, but rather

a communal human experience. Do you remember your first paid speaking gig? I do. When was it? Where were you? It was in Los Angeles. It was at like an airport Marriott in L.A. I drove up there. I got, I think, $1,000 for this paid gig. And they paid for my gas up. And it was like, you know, 42 cents per mile. I thought that was awesome. They paid for my dinner and they paid for my hotel room. And I called my wife from the hotel and I said, please don't ever, ever let me forget this moment. This was the night before that someone actually paid money to maybe want to hear what I have to say tomorrow morning. Now, the following morning, I probably sucked. It was my first presentation. It wasn't recorded. they were very kind, they were very affirming.

The actual substance of the message, I think, is so solid that it's way, way bigger than me. I'm just trying to get out of the way and to connect with the audience. And there was enough connection there that it was received very well and gave me a lot of encouragement and momentum and then continued going. And a lot of speakers will ask me, well, how did you get started? How did you blow up? How do you create this business? I did, I think, get lucky early on.

I spoke at a national health care meeting. Again, I don't know how much I got paid, maybe $1,500. But inside that national health care meeting were 50 state association health care meetings that also all planned meetings. So that was like hitting the lotto because that program led to probably 30 other presentations there. And each presentation, I don't do. a lot of marketing or outbound calls. Tasha does some. We work with a lot of bureaus who do that for us, but it's all been word of mouth and shared experience because it's really difficult to explain to,

you know, a CEO who's going to, you know, make an investment in bringing me in, hey, yeah, it's this artist who talks about creativity and we need to invest this much money to have him come. It's kind of a head scratcher unless you've got people who've seen it and experienced and said, You got to trust me on this. He's going to make an impact. And so I think word of mouth really has been the way we've grown in the business more than anything else. Well, somebody who was in the audience for one. I mean, it's a lock that I would imagine that every single time you speak, you're booking gigs from people who are in that audience.

I mean, it's a, Joey Coleman, another great speaker told me that that's, that happens, you know, to the great speakers is that why you need to go out and keep doing it is that it's a, it, it, it, that's how you. you create momentum because you do such a great job, they're going to either, either there's someone who makes a decision to hire a speaker or they know somebody who is. And that's, that's how it continues to, to create more and more for you. So when was that speech in LA for a thousand bucks? That was probably 2000 and, uh, 2003, I think, maybe 2002, I think was maybe when that was booked. And by 2003, I think I had, uh, two thousand and, uh, I think I had, uh, 50 or 60 dates on the calendar and by 2004, I think we had gotten up to close to 104 or 105 and I was traveling all the time. You know, just Miami, Seattle, New York, San Diego, and the travel

was just killing me. And so we had to figure out a smarter way to do this. And so we cut back on dates and connected cities. And we made that very hard decision to say no or to respectfully decline. And that's where you faced my gatekeeper, you faced Tasha who guards so carefully because we really do value time and family and just our lives so much that she's been very, very helpful as not only our CEO and our kind of enterprise manager and production for everything future logistically, but also as my wing woman. She has my back. She has my health. She nourishes me. And so it's a very unique partnership that we've built this together and made it work in connection with each other. And prior to this, prior to this, I was a suit. I wasn't an

artist. She was a stay-at-home mom. She wasn't a CEO or a director of marketing or sales, but she has morphed into this amazing relationship-building sales professional, where it's not about closing sales, it's just building relationships. She knows all the agents at every bureau. She knows their spouses. She knows their kids' name. She knows what meetings they have, what clients want us. She knows them as people. Agents love to work with her and they like to book me. And so that relationship, she is so incredibly valuable in building those relationships and strengthening those bonds that it makes our job very, very easy.

Well, I'll tell you how she is, Tasha is incredibly impressive. My first, I think I mentioned, cold email sent to you, Eric, was in February of 2015. and Tasha, you know, she was doing a great job of basically, you know, and I was super polite and nice way, much more polite than most people, just told me, you know, no, not yet, not yet, not yet. And I believe it was then a year later. So it was to February 2016, I was, you know, I'm pretty persistent, especially with somebody like you who I really want to talk to.

And I kept pushing. I think, well, you know, Eric, she said, Eric's kind of booked for the rest of the year. And I said, rest of the year, it's February. And she said, yeah. And I said, well, can I get on your calendar then for next year, 2017? Because I play the long game too, man. Like I really, I knew I was going to still be doing this two years after I started. And she's like, well, yeah, yeah, I think so.

And so here we are. It's mid, mid-to-late February, mid to late February, and two years after the initial cold email. And she and you held true to your word. And I booked this appointment a year in advance. The longest, Eric, I have booked one in advance. I'm just so happy that we're doing it, that I was just talking with my parents telling you how excited it was to talk to you because this one's been a long time in the making. Well, please, people who are listening to this, please know that I'm not a prima donna. I'm a huge introvert.

I'm very protective. Tasha's very protective. You know, I listen to a lot of podcasts, a lot of TED Talks. I get so much out of these brilliant minds, Simon Seneck, Seth. Godin, Malcolm Gladwell, and they speak in just these sound bites of brilliance. And I don't know that I do that. I know that I'm nails from the stage because I'm controlling a lot of these elements and I'm practiced and I'm rehearsed and I'm disciplined and I can adjust off of disruptions or anything that happens in the audience. I'm great live and I have great confidence. But I don't have a lot of confidence

in my ability to do interviews or podcasts. And so I just am protective. Tasha's protective because I just don't know that that's where I saw with my strengths. I don't know that I'm going to provide three actual takeaways for your listeners to become better leaders tomorrow that they're going to be able to implement starting at 8 a.m. That's not really how I share ideas. I'm almost a poet. I share in metaphor and storytelling and connection. And I probably need to be doing more of these because they're a little bit uncomfortable for me.

And I constantly talk about pushing the boat further away from the shore, doing things that make me uncomfortable. I did my very first Facebook live last night. I've been told I've need to do this for months and months and months because of how the algorithms of social media works. but I just don't, I don't like Facebook Live all that much. I haven't seen a lot of people present what I would say a value proposition. People are test driving it. I think there's a lot of hope for it for the future. I get it.

But I don't have faith in myself in it yet. So last night I did my very first one, not because I thought it was going to be good, but because I need to take the risk. I've done a few podcasts now. You're, I think, number maybe four or five this year. So maybe we'll get a little bit better. And, again, I just value you and your ability to maybe draw out of me something of substance for your listeners, not that I'm coming to the table with something. Here's what your very intellectual audience needs to do to be more creative right now.

You know, I've got some ideas for that. My book does that. My blogs do that. that gives me, I have more time to think about it, but the way I write, it's almost like a verbal vomit. I write without punctuation. I write without attention to spelling. I just write and write and write and write and write and write stream of consciousness as I connect ideas. And almost that great quote by Hemingway, you know, write drunk, edit, sober. I write from expanded consciousness. So I'm not drunk, but I write from this sense of just inhibition. And then I, I'm

I go back with militaristic discipline, a Hemingway-esque approach to editing. I also have a very talented team of writers and editors that I work with. I give all of them big shoutouts, portfolio. My editor works very closely with me and takes these verbal moments and takes my poetry and makes it translatable into actual substance so it's consumable for audiences. And so we work together to capture my voice, capture my ideas, but also capture it in a way that people can understand it and read it. Because I can share it live from the stage, but sharing live from the stage performing is very, very different from writing, very, very different from doing interviews and very, very different from acting, which is something that I'm passionate about,

something that I thought I would be naturally very good at would be acting, but I'm not. So that is, you know, I really believe in the future of digital media and film and how that will 10x brands and shape brands in the future and how it's the most underutilized media that we, medium that we currently have to grow our brand, grow my personal brand, but I need to get better at how I share that to scale. And so I'm, I'm working hard on studying acting and directing and soundbeds and diction and film to be able to understand what fascinates the viewer and what I can do as a personal brand to take this message and to share it not just in one medium from the stage or one medium from a book or a blog, but also share it in digital format across the internet, which is the wave of the future.

I think people listening would be surprised to hear that you would would call yourself an introvert. And although I'm not sure I am surprised because I've seen some incredible performers, you know, keynote speakers, leaders that are quite introverted, but they know when they have to flip the switch. And I'm curious to, because you said, you've mentioned the word introvert a couple of times now. And I'm curious to hear how you're able to do this. because when you get on stage, you own that place. I mean, like, you are in command. You appear to be unbelievably confident.

I don't think anyone would describe you as an introvert when you're up on stage. So how do you make that shift from being an introverted guy who maybe, I'm guessing, you like to take time to sit and think, to spend time in the quadrant that I would call, not urgent, but very important, meaning you are, you're probably reading, watching TED Talks, thinking, working on ways to probably be more creative, but then you get up on stage and it's go time. How do you make that shift? It's because of the definitions. The definition of an introvert is someone who gains energy by being alone. So as I am consuming information by myself, I'm gaining information. As I'm at a cocktail party communicating as I'm even on stage,

I'm expending energy. So I'm not gaining energy. I'm expending energy. And so I experience, once I'm done on the stage, and I love performing, absolutely love that connection. I'm spent and I experience this come down where I have to be alone. So after I'm done performing, I think a lot of people go and do book signings or go do cocktail parties or go to dinner or go and high five.

I would love to say that I do that, but I just don't. I have to go be alone. because I just left it all out on the court. And I've got to go back and refill myself so that I can be connected to either audiences later on or to my wife or to my show producer or to the meeting planner. So I need time by myself afterwards.

It's not that I can be extroverted. I don't think performing is an act of extroversion as much as it's an act of connection. or authenticity. And I have great confidence going up because I've, number one, done it so many times and because I go through this process of almost like an athlete prepares to take the field, is I go through a very structured routine of stretching and meditation and solitude before I come out to the stage because I'm switching my frame, my mindset from being it about me and about my information, to being about them, who they are and what's going to resonate with them.

And so it takes all of the pressure, all of the nervousness, all the anxiety, all of the cortisol that my body would release out of, you know, being, is my ego going to do okay here? Am I going to rock the house? To being something of adrenaline. Like, I can't wait to get out there. I can't wait to share with this audience. I can't wait to see how they receive, you know, when they see this, you know, when they see this, you know, video being done, this painting, this interaction. And I like to do a lot of freestyle and improv and interaction with the audience because

that is authentic and because it makes it so, I don't want to be scripted up there. But when I'm on stage, my mind is just open. It's flowing and it's almost at its most free, uncluttered state. And I realize that's not the case for everyone. A lot of people say, you know, public speaking is their greatest fear. And for me, it's almost the opposite. That's my greatest space of comfort where my mind is the most relaxed and open. Now, on the flip side of that, you put me on the other side of a camera or an interview or acting, and I freeze up. And I experienced that just tension and anxiety. And did I say that scene right? Did that come off okay? My voice sounds funny. Am I fat? So I go through that.

in this process of acting, which that's why I'd like to get better at that, because I think it really is a discipline. I happen to have taken to it more naturally from the stage and it become more and more confident as time goes and keep pushing envelopes, but I would like to become better at it in other venues where I do tense up and I do experience fear and anxiety and confusion. So it's those places of when my mind is the most, open and expansive versus when it's cluttered and busy. And that's why I've become really a student of meditation. And that's not this, you know, crystals, hokey. It's kind of become a new age fad. And that's not what it is for me. It's a decluttering of my mind. It is a space of quietude

where I'm able to actually open and expand my consciousness and really think at a higher level. And that's really what art has been for me. Art, art has been about producing thinking. And that was the first experience that I had. Art was really a form of meditation for me is it expanded my consciousness. It refined my awareness of being able to see, being able to think, being able to write. And that was so freeing, so liberating, almost so intoxicating to me that I just couldn't get enough of it. And so I've continued to pursue it. And now that's why I use words like meditation.

And I'm careful with it because, you know, I was very hesitant. I didn't like this idea of meditation. I'm an alpha dog. I'm an athlete. I'm a kick-ass hard worker. But what I've learned is that meditation is actually almost the highest form of self-discipline because it's so, so difficult to do. You can't measure it.

You can't measure success. It's all about letting go. It's not about achieving more. But it's that letting go of stuff that doesn't directly relate to my why, to my purpose, to my intent. Being able to declutter my mind from all of that is where I'm the most effective in being able to share and communicate and think. So your newest book, Eric, is called The Spark and the Grind, Ignite the Power of Disciplined, Creativity. You briefly touched on this, but one of the keys, and there's a few things near that we could talk about, one of the keys that you wrote about is immersing yourself in the unfamiliar. So consciously putting yourself into uncomfortable situations, which will help produce new and better ideas.

And it sounds like you are trying to model that and live that yourself by maybe doing more of these types of things, whether it's a podcast or Facebook lives or other ways to put yourself outside of your comfort zone. Yes, because I understand the value of that. And as we're talking about growing a business, I could probably, I'm positive that I could be making a lot more money if I sold my art. If I attended cocktail receptions, if I did meet and greets, if I networked. What we learned early on is that the money was not important to us. and I had to protect myself because I wasn't that great at those things, and it kind of took away from what I really was great at. And so we sacrificed a lot of business growth, a lot of financial growth,

to be able to do what I do best, which is perform. And so that was, again, that just goes back to our Kauai, our Simon Seneck, you know, Kau, is not expanding or just trying to tenet, the brand, the growth, the message for the sake of doing it. Because that wasn't our ultimate goal. Our ultimate goal was connection and sharing a message. So that's why we've been guarded. That's why probably most people have never heard of me is because I'm not out there that

much. But that's okay. I'm going to let it be organic. I also want to now learn because I so deeply believe in the future of social media, of artificial intelligence, of virtual reality, of this connected. global environment. So I understand the need for me to become better, more aware, become aware of shifting consumer behavior, shifting audiences, understand why my kids are drawn towards Snapchat, why audiences are drawn towards authenticity and trust, why they have such a

high BS meter for when they see a speaker that maybe doesn't feel totally authentic or feels like they're lecturing at them, I've got a real high sensitivity to that. And so that everything that I do is centered around trying to grow and expand, but not at the expense of who I am or what my purpose or my why is. You also talk about committing to a steady practice of creativity, what you call a lifestyle of iteration. How do you practice that? how does somebody listening to practice to that?

Like if somebody's listening, if they say, how can you rehearse creativity constantly, which you're talking about, you're rehearsing it? So committing to a steady practice of it, lifestyle iteration. If somebody is working a regular job and let's say they don't love it, but they also don't hate it.

They are, and they're not indifferent. They're just, they're good, right? I'm good. You know, you've heard people say that. They're fine.

How does that specific person rehearse creativity constantly? Well, It starts with passion. You have to understand why you want to be creative. And that's where I'm expanding this notion of what creativity is, is it's not some whimsical idea. But it's truly, for me, it's an embraced routine or an energy for how to view myself, my life, my performances from new perspectives, constantly seeing old things. from a new perspective. I think Adam Grant calls it Vosje day. Things we've seen many, many times before, but the disciplined practice of seeing it again

with fresh eyes, being emotionally intelligent, being empathetic, seeing it from a perspective that's not my own. What was my wife's perspective in that last discussion? Why did I hurt her feelings? If I, man, if I'm her, yeah, that was hurtful. I didn't mean it to be hurtful, but if I'm empathetic, I understand, wow, hon, I'm really sorry. I hurt your feelings. As I see what I said from your perspective, from fresh eyes, I was kind of being a dick there, and I'm really sorry. And I have those conversations a lot because a lot of times I'm not self-aware and I'm very reactive.

And so it's a disciplined process of becoming more proactive in how fully I'm able to embrace being in the now. And for me, that's so much routine. And it's intentionally embracing hardship. And I kind of relate it to creativity is a muscle that must face resistance for it to grow stronger. It must face ambiguity, uncertainty, uncomfortability to be able to grow stronger. And oftentimes when we get into those lands, we pull back and we stop like I did when I was,

you know, six. I received rejection. I stopped. But if we want to become healthier at the gym, we need to face resistance. We need to face hardship. We've got to sweat. We've got to grind so that we can grow and become healthier. For our relationships to become healthier.

They have to face adversity. They have to face hardship. They have to face struggle to ultimately get stronger. It's why I'm so bummed when friends of mine or audience members share with me that they've been, you know, divorced because that's, I realize there's so many things that lead to this, but oftentimes at that point of great resistance in relationships, if you can find ways to work through that struggle, that hardship, that difficulty, that resistance, that's where that marriage truly first had the opportunity to really become something very, very special that it never

could have been had you not experienced that hardship. And so I view creativity the same way is I intentionally look for hardships to push myself. You know, early on in my speaking career, I would set my alarm for 5 a.m. I'd call it, you know, 5 at 5. I would get up before anyone else would ever get up before I even had a date booked. And I would rehearse my presentation walking around my neighborhood in my head before the sun came up. Not because that made a lot of practical sense or I didn't need more sleep because it was that disciplined action of doing the hard, lonely work was very satisfying for me, and that's what made

me better and more comfortable and more confident. It's the same thing I do with, you know, painting is I, 99% of my artwork is done in the dark, in the studio. No one will ever, ever see it. But it's those explorations and pushing and chucking paintings across the studio and throwing my paintbrushes on the floor because it didn't work out or, you know, feeling down, I need to go through those things to be able to come up with maybe a painting that doesn't suck or a piece of writing that I do feel good about. But it's constantly doing it and being disciplined to work through my suckiness to find moments of goodness.

Why don't you sell your paintings? Because the idea of commoditizing art has never been something that I've felt. felt very comfortable with. It's one of the reasons why I kind of branded myself as a graffiti artist early on, because my understanding of street art was it was for the people. It wasn't meant to be commoditized or put in museums or sold in gift shops. It was meant to just be shared with people. And it's kind of taken on, or in the last hundred years, it's been hijacked by vandals and criminals and taken on a lot of different meetings. But for me, it was a form of self-expression. It was a form of being able to share ideas like we used to carve or etch on cave walls to share our legacy or our history or our story.

And so for me, that's how I view it. And when I tell people, you know, I'm a graffiti artist. It's one form of my art. You know, I also do sculpture and writing and poetry and photography and music. But when I brand myself as a graffiti artist, it's alarming. It's somewhat jarring and it surprises the individual that there is a graffiti artist who's on the corporate lecture circuit talking about innovation and creativity and gratitude and empathy and humility and courage. And so it's again, that's about brand shaping. That's about building a business.

That's about creating aha moments. It's like what I'm doing from the stage. I'm also trying to do that as I shape our brand. So if somebody wanted to get one of your paintings, the only way is either through being in the audience and potentially being one of the lucky ones or potentially one of your art drops. Are you still doing the art drops? I do. So thanks for asking. Yeah. So one of the things that I do is because, and I don't sell any of my artwork anywhere. I don't sell it in galleries. I don't sell it in gift shops. I don't do commissioned pieces for clients or, you know, even friends or family. I just don't. But what I will do is I have created a bit of a following

because what I do is I'll hide a piece of artwork in various cities that I'm performing around the world. And people who've wanted art, wanted some of my art, but have never been able to buy it or get their hands on it, will try and unlock these treasure hunts that I release on Twitter or Facebook or Instagram or Snapchat

to try and unlock, clues to figure out where I hid this painting so that they can get it. And so that's just been kind of a fun, engaging way for me to share my art without ever selling it or commoditizing it. And I don't begrudge other artists. Other artists, I want them to sell their art. I want them to be able to value their art. For me, that just wasn't part of what I wanted to do. I wanted my art to be cool. And I feel like you can't put a price on cool. And So I didn't know why one painting would be worth a dollar or one painting would be worth $10,000. I wanted just it to be out there.

And when I perform for corporations or for foundations, what they'll always do is I gift the paintings back to them as a thank you for bringing me in. And then they will auction those paintings off to raise good money for great causes. So my artwork is kind of shifted from being a noun or an object that hangs in someone's library office, library or office, and I've kind of shifted it into being more of an active verb or something that I would view as a way or a channel to lessen the suffering of the world. So using my artwork to raise good money for a great cause was a far greater value to me than being able to profit from it or say my paintings sell for. this amount. That just, that wasn't part of my brand. It wasn't part of my identity or something that I wanted to be associated with. So you start over 10 years ago in LA doing a talk for a thousand bucks plus gas, plus a free dinner, a hotel room. And now you're, you're all over the place.

What is your, what is your rate, average rate now when you, when you go out to give a keynote, presentation slash performance? I'm almost embarrassed to tell you. I get 40 grand for performance, and I realize everyone listening is like WTF. And it is a lot. It is so much. I get that. I'm very, very grateful. We're continuing to grow that. I think after this book, after a lot of things that I have coming up. I'm starting to increase exposure. Again, I've been very much invisible, almost unknown, and it's grown to this rate. I'm kind of excited, you know, where can this go? It's not about, you know, how much will I be able to charge in the future, but what kind of impact will be able to make if I do actually become known

someday or if this brand does amplify or grow or people start talking about it more and more. So it's kind of exciting for me. I reinvest so much back into our ideas. I have so many ideas that just haven't come to fruition yet. Dron cameras, holographic images that interact with me on stage. We work with Cirque de Soleil to create visuals. So many things. that I've invested thousands and thousands of dollars in that are just sitting around in my studio that haven't actualized yet, but I'm actually passionate about that. Like, for me, it's not about how much money can I accumulate or how much can I make. It's how much of this energy can I continue building to reinvest back into new ideas,

to reinvest back into our brand, and to reinvest into building schools in Africa. this is all part of what excites me, not any longer this idea of amassing as much money as possible. That just doesn't excite me at all anymore, which is really freeing for me to say because I spent the first 30 years of my life. That's all I wanted was to amass as much financial security as I could. And that's entirely shifted based on this new channel of life that I feel just much, much freer living and sharing and communicating. And other people see it seems to resonate with other people as well that there is more to life than success or money. I say pursue excellence, pursue mastery, pursue being the best at what you can possibly be, be insatiable curious, insatiably curious, and let the money come where it may. It seems to come to those who are

passionate and to those who provide value. And those are, I think, the keys to building a business. Those are the keys to building successful art. And I think a lot of artists miss that. They think their art is genius, so everyone else should think it is as well. What does it actually provide value? what did your art do that isn't indispensable? Why can they not have it? Why do they need to own this song, this piece of literature, this piece of artwork? It's because the artist was able to provide so much value that others couldn't not have it. And business is the same way.

It's not about making money. It's about providing value. For me, it's about growing the brand. And so that's why it's so easy for me to reinvest back in the same. to the brand because growing the brand is far more exciting than growing my bank account. Well, and think about the number of people that are in the audience that you're impacting that could change their life. You know, I think when you go into a talk, at least for me, any speech from Ask to Give,

um, you try to, you think about the way people think, act and feel. And if you can impact them in all three ways and potentially change, change, uh, them in all three ways, there, I don't even know if you can put a price tag on that. the return on the investment is well worth it. And as someone who's experienced your art, your performance, you're speaking, your message, it is well worth it. In fact, I would say you're getting a deal, a bargain at that rate. And I know that's some people say, wow, no way, that seems like a lot of money.

And I know it is. But if you think about the output, the production, the performance, the impact it could have on just a few people's lives in the audience, let alone if there's hundreds or thousands, you really are. You really are. You can see a return on that investment, whether it's a company or whatever it may be. And so, Eric, I have to acknowledge you for that, for me being lucky enough to be one of those people to be personally impacted by you, both your performance in person as well as watching some of your videos and reading your books. I would encourage people to pick them up.

My first one I read was called Unthink, Rediscover Your Creative Genius. And the most recent one called The Spark and the Grind, Ignite the Power of Disciplined Creativity. Eric, thank you so much for being here. The one thing I have to find a way to like read those clues and be in the right city in the right day because I would love to have one of your paintings in my home. I would love it somehow, some way. I'm going to find a way to make it happen, man. I love that you're fascinated by it.

That is the tribe that I'm looking to build are those engaged followers who have to have it. And that's why I love social media and communicating where these aren't one-offs. I continue these dialogues, these conversations, because I love the engagement. The social media is such a beautiful way for me to communicate, to build activities, to give adults kind of a geocaching adult treasure hunt to try and find a jackpot reward. To me, that's cool. And again, you can't put a price on cool.

So thank you for advance for engaging and searching and hunting that you do. Even if it's in vain, I hope you enjoy the process. getting out and trying to find some of that artwork. Definitely, definitely. Where would you send my listeners to learn more about you online? My website, theartovision.com. If you Google my name, Eric Wall, E-R-I-K-W-A-H-L, again, that's weird for me to say because I'm not used to self-promotional stuff.

I'm grateful that your listeners, if they've listened as far, that they would be interested enough to learn more if you listen to this. Give me a shout-out. I'd love to give you a high-five back, just saying, Thanks for your interest and stay connected with me because I love the opportunity to share and keep engaging. But everything else is drawn from my website, The Art of Vision, my upcoming book, The Spark in the Grind, which I'm super pumped about because it really is the discipline of creativity.

And I've kind of really refined this concept that structure creates freedom. And I've lived that for the last 15 years. I hadn't broken it down in such a concise way and had editors help me shape it so that it's consumable. But breaking that myths that creativity just happens or that it's just whimsical. But there's actually a very tactical, structured, disciplined routine to access constant creativity. And that's why I'm excited about this book coming out. The Spark and the Grinding, Night, the Power of Discipline Creativity. It's awesome, Eric.

Thank you so much once again, and I absolutely want to continue our dialogue as we both progress, man. Thank you. Ryan, professionalism aside, you rock, my friend. You earn this, and I'm grateful to you for your persistence, and I'm grateful to your audience for listening. I really am. Thanks, man. I really appreciate it. It means a lot.

All right. All right. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to learningleadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again and we'll see you next time on the Learning Leader Show. Pump for our new sponsor this year, it's Fresh Books.

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