The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 200: AJ Hawk & Keith Hawk - Showing Up, Doing The Work, Earning Trust, Helping Others, Winning The Super Bowl, Celebrating #200

Episode Date: April 16, 2017

Episode 200: AJ Hawk & Keith Hawk - Showing Up, Doing The Work, Earning Trust, Helping Others, Winning The Super Bowl, Celebrating #200 Subscribe on iTunes  or Stitcher Radio The Learning Leader Show "I've always been obsessed with being accountable to the people around me.  I have to be there for them." In This Episode, You Will Learn: Common themes of great coaches/leaders: A vividly clear picture of what success looks like Mission/Vision -- Habits built Give coaching feedback Look to help them "My success can only follow the success of others" Show up -- Be there (AJ) They are authentic Clearly communicate -- Jim Tressel was great at this, never had to yell Bad bosses/coaches: When they don't know what to do, they just yell They lose the principle that their job is to help people They only focus on numbers and not their people Being retired "It doesn't mean what it used to" "I now have the freedom to work on only what I want to..." "I like not being on someone else's schedule" Key to quickly earning respect from peers? "Be seen, not heard." "Be accountable to your peers/teammates. Always show up, be consistent." Must find a way to do the important "people" things and not just get caught up in the day to day tasks What do you miss? All of the people used to see daily Micro-Coaching The act of coaching others on the small details that lead to sustained excellence. The importance of doing this on a regular basis. Make it a habit Thoughts as a parent "My job to take you to the door, but it's up to you to go through it and thrive." "You need to compete as much as possible... That creates adversity, which is healthy for a kid." (AJ) "I almost feel like we have to create adversity... We don't want our kids to be spoiled." (To AJ) How will you handle it when your daughter Googles you and sees that you signed a 36 million dollar contract? Creating appreciation for your kids -- Making them earn what they get Recommend your kids spend time around those are who less fortunate so they know how lucky they are What do you hope others say about you? (Keith) - "That I helped them."  "My success can only follow the success of others."  "That I was full of integrity, honest, trustworthy." (AJ) - "Accountable to others, that I was a guy who made other people feel good.  That they never had to question me and whether I would be where I was supposed to be.  That I showed up." When people say "Man, it must be sad that AJ is done with football!" -- Not the case at all.  So grateful that it happened. "Don't cry because it's over.  Smile because it happened." "Always be there.  Show up. Don't delegate important tasks, be there.  Don't say no if you can say yes.  You have to earn trust." Continue Learning: Follow AJ on Twitter: @OfficialAJHawk Read: Get Real Selling by Keith Hawk Connect with me on LinkedIn Join our Facebook Group: The Learning Leader Community To Follow Me on Twitter: @RyanHawk12 You may also like these episodes: Episode 078: Kat Cole – From Hooters Waitress To President of Cinnabon Episode 071: Nate Boyer - Green Beret, Texas Football, The NFL Episode 179: How To Sustain Excellence - The Best Answers From 178 Questions Episode 107: Simon Sinek – Leadership: It Starts With Why Did you enjoy the podcast? If you enjoyed hearing AJ Hawk and Keith Hawk on the show, please don't hesitate to send me a note on Twitter or email me. Episode edited by the great J Scott Donnell The Learning Leader Show is supported by Rhone.  Use the code "Hawk" for 15% off.  Rhone... premium activewear engineered with principle, performance and progress for the modern man.  Rhone builds clothing around 3 main tenants: Cutting-edge Performance, Premium Comfort, and Simplistic Style.

our success can only follow the success of others. And I think if you build your career with that mentality that I'm in the job of making other people more successful. So if I'm with a customer, I want my customer to be more successful. If I'm with an employee, I want them to be more successful. And if you keep doing that year after year after year, you know, you've planted all these positive seeds all over the place that, you know, when you retire, and that's, I got the beautiful opportunity to see it live in an actual ceremony, you know, a guy stood up on stage and said,

anybody that Keith Hawks helping your career raise your hand. And I got to see a lot of hands go up. I mean, I clutched up once I saw it. Are leaders born or are they made? Our host, Ryan Hawk, believes that leaders can be made through determined, focused work on learning the art and science behind the makeup of other successful leaders. Now it's time to inhale knowledge and exhale success. You're listening to The Learning Leader Show with Ryan. Ryan Hawk. Proud to say that this episode of The Learning Leader Show is brought to you by Roan. R-H-O-N-E, Rone.com, premium activeware engineered with principal, performance, and progress

for the modern man. They build clothing around three main tenants, cutting-edge performance, premium comfort and simplistic style, from rapid moisture wicking to four-way stretch, their clothing offers unrivaled durability and flexibility. Remember episode number 194 with Roan CEO Nate Chekitts. I love his process for building this business and even more I love their product. So we're happy to partner together to help you the loyal listeners of the learning leader show. Go to roan.com. Choose whatever you'd like and as you're checking out, type in the code Hawk. Simply Hawk, H-A-W-K to get 50,000.

percent off. Now, Roan does not typically do discount codes. So this is a special one. It will expire within a few months, but type in Hawk, H-A-W-K at Rone.com. Hey, and welcome to this very special edition of The Learning Leader Show. It's episode number 200. I am Ryan Hawk. Thanks so much for being here. My featured leaders tonight are two people I look up to more than anyone else. It's my younger brother AJ and my dad Keith. My brother AJ is the all-time leading tackler in the history of the Green Bay Packers. Also a Super Bowl winner where he was voted captain by his teammates as well as voted to the Pro Bowl. Recently retired after playing 11 years in the NFL. My dad Keith also recently retired after 30 plus years leading

950 sales professionals to have immense success. Sustained excellence. A few of the topics we got into. Hard work. You have to make it happen. My dad details a story behind this and his life. Then the difference between great bosses slash coaches and bad bosses and coaches. AJ gave a very insightful answer to this one. Then how we can develop grit both in ourselves as well as our children. Then retiring, what's next for both them, especially AJ at such a young age and then money how it impacts us as leaders ladies and gentlemen I absolutely love this one it's so much fun with AJ and Keith Hawk all right pistol let's get it started with you I was wondering who to start with but I found a quote that I think is uh suits us pretty well and maybe since you

the leader of the family can say it and expand on it and then age can talk about it too but you were there's a story in a magazine at some point. I pulled up here after doing some research and it says, our family has always believed in hard work and things don't just happen. You have to make them happen. Talk to me a little bit more about that quote and your feelings on hard work and making things happen. Well, I think I got that from growing up across the street from a railroad track and a pig farm. and not necessarily having the title of most likely to succeed when I was young. And so I knew that work was really important. So from school to sports to everything else, I found that things happen.

Good luck happens if you make it happen. And the thing that I'm most delighted about with you guys coming up is that you didn't have to be told. You actually had something inside you that made you work, that made you enjoy work. work and I will never forget the the first mornings I heard you guys down in the basement lifted weights that were my weights in the beginning and and you picked up on that and you guys everything that you ever did it seemed like you knew you had to work hard for it despite the fact that you had a pretty high level of skill as well so that's that's what's on my mind when I think of that is my first reaction well we both I think now being dads I in age of you and I talked about this

last time we recorded I remember it was do we have this fear that our own children, like, does that come from within or is there a way to to not be the Tiger Woods type dad, although Tiger turned out pretty well for the beginning part of his life? Like, how are you able to instill that in your children? Or maybe you can't, I don't know. And I'm curious, Pistol, how about you go first to answer to say, you just mentioned basically that we just kind of wanted to, but where does that come from? Maybe this is a little bit confusing and complicated, but I'm curious because we're the dads of young kids now.

Yeah, your question is about, is it nature or is it nurture, right? And I think there's a bit of both. I think the most important thing a parent can do is to set a positive example of living a good life. And that's not just being, you know, Boy Scout trustworthy and honest, but it's also the example you set and how you go about your business. And so it is my hope that you're not. you guys saw little things early in your lives like me working on my MBA at night after I'd already had a job and had kids, working out with my neighbor out of the basement lifting weights, trying to run marathons, and working hard at work and set in a good example and being successful.

I hope all that stuff comes through somehow in addition to all the obvious kind of physical things you guys had going for you already. And I would suggest also the mental things you had going for you. So it's a combination of, I think, example being set by the parent to go along with the natural skills you've got. How do you think about that age? Because when I think about that, it's stuff you probably think about more than anything. I know I do too when it comes to your kids. They're going to follow what you do far more than what you say and the example you set and you have to model the behavior.

So you consciously think about what you do every single day, all of your actions, like small things. of I remember I took Ella with me to deposit a check into my bank like old school because I wanted her to see what could happen if somebody asked me to come give a speech and I showed her the amount because I wanted to say hey and she said you got that for one hour and I said no I got that for the three years of work leading up to that one hour so you I know you think a lot about this your kids and the importance of you have three children with a fourth on the way and modeling the right behavior. What's your thought process around that based on what we got growing up as well

as what you're doing right now? Well, I mean, I think about all the time, obviously, but I think growing up, I never really, for whatever reason, I mean, I was the youngest of three with you and Burke. My brother's just chasing you guys around, I say. So I was just following the example. you guys set without it and I know you guys didn't have like a specific plan in place trying to to bring me up or show me the right way that's just how it works I think but as far as listening to pistol or or mom I think he hit it perfectly saying he feels like if he set the right example that we would follow and that's that's the only thing I can try to do with my kids I know I heard uh triple h the wrestler he was on a podcast and he said

He said, what kids will do what they see, not what they hear, I guess, when it comes to their parents. And I'm sure he's not the only person that's ever said that. I'm sure you heard it somewhere. But I think that's 100% true. And that's what with my kids, whatever it may be, working out, studying, working, reading. I always try to explain to them what I'm doing. And they get naturally curious. If I sit there and try to beat it into them and tell them, hey, you got to come down here and work out with me and get on the treadmill and pick up these kettlebells and do everything.

everything. They're like, no, Dad, we want to go, let's watch an iPad. I want to watch Paul Patrol. So I don't, I don't try not to pressure him into anything, but I'm always trying to do something productive and something healthy. And then they're going to naturally be curious. And they're always trying to come down the weight room with me or whatever I may be doing. I mean, they talked about a pistol nose. He's recorded a podcast with with Lenin, my daughter. She's been on here and she'll be like, oh, daddy, you have a podcast tonight? And they want to come up into the little room and try to call. They try to call you or they try to call pistol. And I have to explain them that you guys aren't always around. We have, everyone has lives and they always want to call you guys. So whatever it is, I think just setting the example is the only thing you can do and then try to teach them to make, make good decisions whenever they do get out there on their own and they're throwing out to the wolves. That's a scary thing, thinking your kids can go out to college and high school and have to make these decisions that can change their lives pretty quickly.

Yeah. So let's talk about the fact that what's, I guess, newly for newly named for both you the fact that I technically you've retired uh at the same time which is odd the youngest son and the dad happened to retire uh from their professions at the exact same time it doesn't happen very often and I don't personally being from the a person who obviously is close to close to both of you don't I don't feel that way people say that to me about both of you they're like oh your dad's retired or AJ's retired I'm like not really or maybe it's just like you move from one job to the next.

That's what I feel like. And so I'm curious now that people are saying, I mean, Pistol, we had a huge retirement party for you and all this, these speeches and crazy stuff. It was a great day. But it's like he's just going to go on in the next day and do different type of work. And age the same thing. You're only in your early 30s,

you have your entire life to live, the bulk of your life to live. And people say, well, you're retired because you're moving on from one job to the next, which obviously they're in the NFL. So when people talk to you about being retired, what is that sense or what's your mindset? Pistol will start with you when it comes to the fact of you don't know,

you probably don't feel retired, but technically you're not doing what you've done for many years. Yeah, and it's a tough question for me because people assume something that's completely different than my approach. They assume you're going to play golf every day. You're going to sit on the couch and watch Ellen DeGenerate. Well, you are playing a lot of golf, though. I'm playing more.

That's right. If it was, okay. Here's the difference. I tell them this. I retired from the company that I went in and worked for every day for 30 years. That's what I tell them I did. I retired from that, but I didn't retire from working. And the biggest difference in my view is the type of things I do are, here's the freedom

you get in retirement. You get the chance to work on just what you want to. And retirement is as much stopping the parts of your work that maybe you didn't want to do as much and amplifying the things you did. So for me, I just described for them, I've moved on to a different work lifestyle. So I spend a lot more time doing individual things that I have to produce the end result as opposed to leading other people to produce an end result, whether it be giving speeches or writing books or teaching us a seminar.

And so that's the kind of work I do these days. So I have to kind of get people's mindset that, you know, I'm not interested at all in just, quote, being retired. I'm doing different things. And there are fun things and creative things. Real quick, before I go to you, H, you said something that's interesting to me. I get the freedom to work on just what you want or just what I want to do. That's what you said.

And to me, being someone who's actually following in similar steps, right, as your career has progressed and mine has too. I don't know if I like that quote, because I would rather do that right. now, right? I want to work on just what I want to do all day, every day. But you're saying to you, you feel like it's taken 30 plus years to get to that point? Or am I misconstruing that? It's not, it's a natural move. Don't get me wrong. I loved, I loved virtually every day of my 30 years with Lexus Nexus. And it was an honor to be in a leadership position most of those years. But at a certain point in time, you evolve and say, it's time for other people to take over some of that work. And I'm going to focus on the things that I like to do most. And so there's a book I'm reading,

and I know you might ask us about books, because I know you're a good book guy, but a book called Half Time. And it focuses on moving from success to significance. And I spent many, many years trying to be successful and helping other people to be successful. And now I'm trying to do things that are more about being significant and important and being inspired all the time. And without the kind of clutter of a bunch of meetings and things like that. So it's a lot more almost like becoming a violin maker. You know, you really want to work on building the perfect violin. And I have the freedom to do stuff like that now.

And obviously not building violins, but in public speaking and bookwriting and so forth. Age, yours is obviously quite different. Like I said, early 30s. you've been world-class athlete voted captain by your teammates of a Super Bowl winning team, All-American Ohio State, everything. I mean, we could go on and on. And now it comes time to where it's a combination of you probably saying, I want to put words in your mouth, but probably saying, I'm not sure if I really want to do this anymore, as well as the NFL

saying, we're not sure if we want you to do this anymore because that's just the natural progression of what happens to the best of the best, right? even the Packers didn't want Brett Farrve anymore. And so how does it feel in your position to be so young and to hear the word retired thrown around? Because I know you don't feel that way, but everyone else, I mean, people say it to me. I can't imagine what they say to you when it comes to now the next step in your career. Yeah, I think it was a weird term early on for sure.

I mean, maybe six months ago. I think, I don't know, three, four months ago. when people would say that to me, like retired. I don't really look at it like that. Yeah, I mean, I guess retired from football. But when you hear the term retired, it doesn't mean what it used to be. Like I think it used to be like back when Pistow was growing up,

people, they work their whole lives. They try to get to 65 and they retire and they hang out and they sit in a chair in their house and they die. Like I don't think that's the norm anymore. I don't think anyone truly stops working or going after whatever you love. So yeah, with luckily for me, I think with, football, those two things that you mentioned of the teams telling you, hey, man, we don't really, sorry, but we don't need your services anymore. We'll take a younger, cheaper option,

a younger, better cheaper option, and my same, like, desire or they kind of came together at the same time, really. And not even like, well, I mean, I always loved football since I was second grade when I started playing, but I think I knew I felt like the time was right. And I wasn't, So I played nine years in Green Bay and then they released me and I played one year in Cincinnati and then this past season snuck a year in with Atlanta being there for enough weeks. The Falcons and when Green Bay let me go after nine years, I wasn't ready to stop playing then. I knew I wanted to still see if I could play or I would like to give another shot. So Cincinnati was awesome to bring me in. But then when Cincinnati let me roll the spring.

I guess with that just a year ago? Yeah. Yeah, pretty much a year ago. When they let me go, what was, something was weird, and I talked to Laura, my wife about this. So like, they cut me, let me know. And I was like, all right, I was kind of indifferent about it. I wasn't really shocked, but I was a little bit surprised.

And I really, I'd been there for one week of off-season workouts, and I didn't really see a fit for me. I'm like, looking around. I was like, I don't even know. Like, where would they even play me? We have a lot of young guys that need to prove if they have it. And we have a lot of older vets that are established. So I didn't really see a spot for me anyway.

So I was already kind of confused as to what my plan was. But then they let me go. And I came home. I drove back to Columbus that night. I still remember I took my daughter to her swim lesson that night, like a 5 o'clock. And took her to that, whatever, got her to bed. And then it was like 8 o'clock or 8.15 that night. And bam, I like passed out.

I went to sleep. And I was done for the night, which is pretty rare. I usually don't fall asleep before 11 or 12 and it was so awkward and even the next day Laura like what asked me she's like what man you just you were out like at 815 you were done you were asleep for the night I was like yeah I don't know what happened and I almost took that like as a sign like all right I'm I'm good I'm okay I think I'm good to not play anymore and it was a weird I'm not into the like signs or I don't know if that was like a thing telling me tell him my brain hey you're good it's okay to let go it's like an old guy an old guy's wife

on her deathbed and she says it's okay. She tells her you're okay, you can go. You're, go die, go be with God. And then boom, she dies in like a minute. I guess it's like that maybe. Nice metaphor for that. Yeah, I guess that's a metaphor. I guess that's the only way I can describe it.

So, and it's everything though, like physically for sure. I mean, I've had, since I was 18, had a knee situation that I've been dealing with and learned how to handle it over the years. And that over the last probably two years, three years I was playing, didn't feel it was a daily thing I was always trying to figure out like how to just how to practice really how to make it out to practice let alone to figure out the games I figured I figured like adrenaline that'll take care of it never got shot up or anything but uh I went to Atlanta for three weeks this past season I wasn't playing on going anywhere they called me said they needed somebody

I went down there and they had a great thing going so I signed with them and after the first practice I came back I had more in shoulder pads and six eight months whatever it was. And their coaches were like laughing and joking with me. Like, AJ was watching days of our lives two days ago. He's out here hitting in practice today. And it was fun.

Like it was fun being the old guy showing up. And even after that first practice, like I was getting all kind of treatment on my knee, getting acupuncture, all the, and I was like, man, I got to figure out how to how to fake it through these practices

just to these guys don't cut me on the spot with how I feel like I'm running. I just was not feeling good. And I knew, like, I knew they, They didn't need a guy for too long. So they kept me around for three weeks and it actually gave me a full accrued season.

So it got me up to 11 years in the league. And they were awesome. They're the great organization. But I think for me, I don't, that term retired in this long, winded answer. I don't really use it like retired. I guess moving on from that into, I've always pursued stuff that I'm passionate about and like media and broadcasting type stuff. And now I get to dive all full go into it. But the thing that a misconception, though, is when you're playing,

you have a lot of free time as well. Football is the greatest schedule when it comes to pro sports. You only have eight away games a year. And for those away games, you're gone for about a day and a half usually max in your back. And during the week, it's pretty much like a nine to five. I mean, it's like 6 a.m. to 5 every day. But you're home and I was putting my kids to bed every night. And you're not gone very often. So you have time if you just make it. If you don't sit there and play video games and smoke weed during your free time, which I didn't. So that's a...

You're inferring. Some people might have been doing that. No, nobody in the NBA, NFL, any sports smokes. Is it like, what do you think, honestly, like 80%? Is that high? I mean, 75, for sure, in the NFL. We're going to pull a clip.

I mean, I don't care. I don't have a problem with it. Like, it's not a performance enhancer. If that's the whole debate now, smoking weed over taking pills, I mean, the science sounds like, dangerous thing ever. I don't know how we got here, but the science sounds to me like I'm not a weed smoker either.

I never have been. But it feels from everything I've read that it's a no-brainer when it comes to that or even those little weed pills that I know some of your buddies took from time to time. You've been offered by teammates? Yeah, I had never tried them. But verse like Vicodin or Purgocet. And what happens when people get addicted to that? I mean, this is a full probably two-hour.

worth conversation with pain pills versus that, but it seems like a no-brainer. But anyway, I was getting back to the video games and what guys do when you could spend time with your family because there's more free time maybe as an NFL player than maybe I have as a regular job. Oh, definitely. 100% I think you do. And that's something that I actually, I do a serious XM radio. And I did a show the other day with my brother-in-law, Brady, Quinn.

the whole Tony Romo situation came about, and they're talking about Tony going to CBS, and they're saying, oh, he wants to spend more time with family. And Brady's like, that's a big misconception that people think if you're calling games, that you're not nearly as busy as when you're playing.

He said, if you have a full slate of games, that's 16 games plus the playoffs that you're traveling every single week for. If you're playing an NFL, you have eight home games where you're not traveling. So it's not like he's going to be home more. Yeah, he, during the day, early in the week,

he may be, he's going to be, he didn't have to go into the facility, but he's still going to be doing prep work and conference calls and everything. So it's not, no matter what your gig is, you're going to be busy and hopefully you're productive with that time. And I just feel like now I almost like what Pistol said. I, now I get to spend more time, I guess, unlike the things that were outside projects and outside interest, I get to spend most of my day centered around that and figuring out exactly the different paths I want to take when it comes to broadcasting in my podcast and doing serious XM radio and speaking gigs.

So now it's kind of all in on that and it's on me now. It's on me to make my own schedule with that. And I love that. That's the one thing that I, from the day I started playing sports that I never liked to be on anybody else's schedule. I felt like trapped.

And even in Atlanta, they do the great, they have such an amazing schedule and meetings are like real upbeat, fast, high energy, bam, bam, bam. You go through and you're always, have all these, they really stimulate you. It's really geared towards like the younger millennial kid.

And I think they're doing a great job with that. But even then, sometimes I was so used to not being on someone else's schedule that I got back. I'm like, man, I'm walking out here. And my time isn't, isn't my time anymore. And I'd gotten used to having it to where I got to set my own schedule. And I feel like I'm disciplined enough where I love that. I love being able to set my own day. And I don't need somebody to set that for me.

which is something that a lot of former players struggle with. They need someone to tell them 6 a.m. meeting, 7.15 lift. And I don't need that. I get up and work out and do everything on my own, and I have no issues with that. That's how I prefer. One of the other things I think that you guys have in common is that you were really highly respected by your peers, your colleagues, which I think all three of us would agree is most important because Pistol, you know, like in the corporate work, world. We all know the people. And age, this is probably true in sports, but maybe a little different. We know, we all know people who are good at managing up, but they're, but they're not good at managing down. We call this people who kiss up, but kick down. Right. The people who I, as long time listeners know that I despise these types, but some of them actually progress and make pretty solid careers for themselves for quite some time. But you guys have both been able to to earn, I say earn on purpose, earn respect from,

peers. And this is a question I'm always, or I think I always want to learn about from people who don't just earn respect from their boss, but they earn respect from everybody around them. So in your case, age, being voted a captain when some would say like, oh, well, why not Clay Matthews or other guys, right? But you were, you were voted and you're not getting all the flashy sacks and stuff, but your teammates have said, we want him to represent us for that coin toss at the Super Bowl. And that's a meaningful thing. And Pistol for when, you know, I did an exercise where I asked a lot of your peers to describe the good things that you've done for them.

And I got inundated with responses, right? And so I'm curious, I'll start with you Pistol with. What are, when you think about ways that you've been able to garner such respect from those who are in your sphere, right, of influence, the people around you and not just your boss, but everyone around you, who I would say is even more important, in my opinion, what are some of the keys to doing that? How have you done that? I know that's just not, I mean, maybe it is, I know a part of it's just innately within you, but what are some of the keys that you could say that maybe could help other people to earn that respect? Well, there's only a few, but I believe in

them a lot. I think that one thing that's possible to do in life and certainly in business is it's possible to hide. And people don't respect people that hide. They respect people that are there, that are in the trench with them that show up. And one of the earliest things I think I discovered, both in learning from good leaders as well as those that weren't as good, is always be there in the business version of game day. So whether it's with a customer or with a tough internal situation, don't delegate important things,

be right in the middle of them and be a participant. So that's one thing, is always show up. Another thing is people don't respect what I would called distance, people that are distant from you. So I have a phrase I use. It says, don't say no if you can say yes. And so I have made it my business life's objective to, if somebody asks me to do something that they think I can add value, I'm going to do everything I can to say yes to that and not to try to play them off. And I think that clearly has helped me a lot. And I think just being a willing and open communicator who develops trust, I mean, you don't, you don't get trust right off the bat.

You earn trust. I think has been something that is something that was very important to me. And I worked on really hard through the years. So, you know, when I just kind of kind of roll it up, those are the things that come to my mind first. Age, you started working out out of Ohio State the summer going into your freshman year. I wasn't there. Obviously, I was playing and in college doing the same thing, but I remember I think you might have won some sort of dip contest

or workout contest initially, and immediately it seems that you have earned respect from your teammates. And then the same thing happened. And I don't even know, I might have read about this story, but when you got drafted, you came to Green Bay and each rookie had to go around the room and introduce themselves. And it corrected me if this is not an accurate story

because we've never talked about this. And so each guy had to say, you know, hi, I'm so-and-so, and I went to this college. And you said, I'm A.J. Hawk from Ohio State. And apparently there were guys in the room who really respected the fact that you didn't add in the the portion of Ohio State like people do when they're on TV or they're being announced. They add this the to kind of say we're better than some others. And that was one of the first things that you let your actions do, spoke louder than your words. and that was one way you earn respect, but I'm curious of your thought process as both earning respect as a freshman at Ohio State to then go on and win a national championship that year. So you're respected by high quality guys and then do the same thing when you got drafted and you're a first round pick in Green Bay.

It's supposed to be the splashy, high paid, you know, number five overall pick, but we're able to earn respect through your work ethic. Yeah, as far as that Green Bay story, I mean, I'm not 100% sure if that's true or not. I'm pretty sure it is. I think what your teammates said it and I read about it, but I don't know. Okay. Yeah, I'm sure I did, especially being a rookie and my, I mean, Brett Farmer sitting directly behind me. I think just out of sheer probably anxiety, I didn't want to be like, dude, and act like

I'm coming into the room like the man. So I'm sure I did. But on the TV copy, though, I do say the Ohio State University. Well, because the Ohio State people would absolutely crush you if you didn't get. And that is the name of the school. Right. He was like, what did they do? I'm like, what's called the Ohio State University.

Right. That's why. Yeah. I'm not like weird about it. Like some people will take it to the death. I'm okay. Like either like I'm super proud. I live in Columbus.

But as far as coming in as a freshman, it goes to what Pistol was saying, just be there, just show up. And I, I, pistol remember, we went and dropped you off at Miami of Ohio when you went to, brutal. You went to work out early. We were missing, we were missing getting in the car driving home. That was so, so miserable. Hey, go ahead, tell the story. It was weird.

Yeah, we dropped you off at Miami. So you went early, which no one was really doing at the time. You graduated high school, and, like, the next day drove you to Miami, and you live with a couple guys in their college house. And we dropped you off there. There was no, no weed in that house at all. I guess. Oh, yeah. I mean, it was like a different world.

I think I was a sophomore. I guess I was a sophomore in high school. So we, like, walked in. It's a college house. So there's just, it's just messy. And there's beer cans and just guys, there's independent. the people who I didn't even realize existed at the time and we're dropping you off to go when you were going to work out there for the summer before your freshman year. So we saw you do

that. And so naturally, I wasn't going to graduate high school early and enroll in college like a lot of guys do now, which I'm still, I'm very happy I did not do. I think that would have been a mistake. I don't think you need to do that to find a way to come in early and make an impact. but I graduated high school and went up to Columbus during the week. I live with Mike Nugent and our fellow Centerville guy. I lived actually in his room. He let me stay there and I forget where he went and stayed with his buddy somewhere, I think, when I was sleeping in his room during the week.

And I just showed up and worked out. And it was weird. You walk in. I was 18 and just jumped into all the drills. And there was no real path or like outline of what you were supposed to do. Bobby Carpenter came. and one or two other guys. I think Bobby and I were really the two, like, consistent guys that were there every day throughout that summer.

But we just kind of walked in and jumped in the drills and did everything. And I guys had no idea. The guys thought I was a walk on early on. Kenny Peterson asked me if I was a walk on. I couldn't find my locker. I don't think I had one yet. And we just kind of showed up and just worked out. And then over time, people see you show up every day.

And we'd be at the early, like, 6 a.m. workout. And we would just, that's all I knew coming from September. So I did that and naturally it just followed the leaders. I mean when you're young especially They'd say be be seen not heard and there's no it's no better time than when you're a young guy coming in like they don't want to hear anything you have to say ever and that's how it should be I think And that's I definitely lived that I probably just because of being shy not really sure how to connect with those guys But they were so awesome and took me in and I think you see you know right away if a guy's working hard and he's trying it'll earn guys respect and that's that's kind of how I had the path that I chose without even really knowing it but then after I got drafted coming in it's the same type of thing like I feel like there's no

reason to come in and try to act like you're big time in anybody and I felt like if I'd show up and I work out every day and I don't miss practice and I let my guys the guys around me know that that I'll be accountable to them and I'm not just out there looking looking out for myself that I want I wanted to win games and I know the best way to do that is if we were a team So my whole thing is always just, I've always wanted to be accountable to the guys around me. That's always, always been, I think my biggest fear is that the guys around me couldn't count on me. Or if I was out of position or missed a play, like, yeah, it sucks when the coaches yell at you and know that you missed it or fans or media guys or whoever is calling the game. But when your teammates know and they feel like they couldn't count me, that was always my biggest fear, I think.

So that's number one right away. Just be accountable to your guys. and after that we could figure everything else out. You had that productive paranoia. I think you live with that. And that's where I think some of your consistency has been built. All of us actually share, I think, that, like, I am very productively paranoid about this show and making sure it's always released at the same time on the same day and never missing.

And I think we all have a sense of consistency. It's, I don't know if that's just within us or what to say, like whether it's with diet, exercise, work, podcasting, writing, whatever it may be, or reading. It's this consistent need to now, like, not let my teammates down when we played football, not let your teammates down when you play football, not let your people, your pistol leading a 950 plus sales organization, not letting them down. Me now, I feel like these fans who write emails to me with questions, I don't want to let them down.

And it's like you just have to consistently show up, do the work to make sure that it's there. Even if, though, it probably wouldn't matter at all if I missed a week or two. I know it wouldn't, but for me, like, it's just part of it. So I think we all kind of seem to share that. I want to talk a little bit about, I don't know, I'm not sure if this will work or not, but especially for you pistol because it's, you're probably still too close to it. But you've, I don't know when you officially retired. It's actually probably January 1.

So it's only been a few months. But do you notice, is there something that you miss? or what do you miss about the day to day of not being someone who is officially on an org chart leading about a thousand people? Yeah. I heard a general one time say the thing he missed most when he retired was when he walked into a room. He missed that everybody didn't jump up and salute. They never did that with me anyway. They might have said nice things, but they didn't jump up and salute.

I thought I might miss that. just the having a kind of a command. But I don't. I got it. I had enough. I had enough of that. What I also thought I would miss was those day-to-day relationships of the people I worked with, you know, nine, ten hours a day, day after day after day. I kind of thought I would miss that. But what I discovered was I spent so much time working on the tasks that I've actually become more social after I've retired. So for example, I used to have my lunch four days out of five at my desk. You know, I'd have a big old jug of chicken noodle soup and I'm, and I'm doing email. I'm responding to stuff. Well, now I go to lunch with people like three days a week

and a lot of them are my work friends. And interestingly, a bunch of new people that I didn't know before that I now have the freedom to meet up with. And so I've discovered it's a big old open world to you if you have the time and the willingness to get out there and see what's out there. And so the opportunities are all over the place. And there's new people that I never had time to meet that I'm meeting now. In addition to staying in close touch with my old friends. So I haven't had things that like this aching missing thing. I really haven't had that.

And I like my new routine because it's fresh and new, just kind of like AJ describes. I didn't fall asleep at 8 o'clock my first night. But I do that anyway. So I actually don't know the answer to this. But I'm curious if somebody, you know, you know, you know, a high-level CEO or president backed up the Brinks truck and dumped it out on your doorstep and said, I need you to lead my sales organization. Here's a million dollars.

What would you do? Ask for more. Okay. Honestly, to be, I give you the direct answer. If I wanted to keep doing that, I would have done it at the place that I left because I loved that place. And I love the people and I love the products and stuff. And so I didn't leave because I wanted to go someplace else.

I left because I was done. So no, I don't really have that interest. And now that I've had this short three-month glimpse of how cool it is to be kind of out there in the streets. And I'm on a couple of boards of directors of companies. And I'm seeing completely different things I'd never seen before. And thanks to you, Ryan, you gave me the referral. I gave a speech the other day up in Milwaukee to a 150 general contractor. It's perfect.

I'd never met before. Well, this is what's good. For anyone listening to, if there are dates that don't work, my fill-in is about a million times better than me. And so it makes, it makes, yeah, right? Hey, hey, I can't do it. I'm sorry, I'm not able to that day. I got somebody who could do a good job. And I told him the same thing.

I said, you're going to be so much happier that the backups coming in because he's better than a starter here for this particular thing. So I said, hey, that might hopefully becomes a regular thing if I'm not able to do it, you know? You never know. I mean, AJ and I are doing some things together. Exactly. So that's a, you know, that's been, so I've, I've just, it's almost like, it's almost like you just took, took off this shroud that I'd had on me and I can just see and everything smells good and it looks bright. And it's, it's all exciting. So maybe it is a little too early to think about what I've missed because I'm seeing so much that's new that I didn't get the chance to see before. Does it, does it make you potentially regret eating so many lunches at your desk when you were in command? I mean, because for me, this is a telling. thing to me. It says, don't get caught up doing that, right? Like, find a way to make it work, to do the things that you love doing now, but do it while you still have a big job that a bunch of people report to you and you're in charge of, right? Yeah, you've got to find a way to be that kind of island maker at the same time as you have all these pressing duties around you. So what can

you do? And I see what you do with your podcast is as big an example as I can see. You're super passionate about something that though it supports and is very helpful to your work, it's not an accountable part of your work. And it's easy, especially the hire you go in an organization to get so, so consumed by the things you're accountable for, especially if you're like us where you're productively paranoid, right, that you say, I've got to get this stuff done. I've just got to keep grinding. And once you don't have to grind on those accountabilities anymore, then, man, you're really liberated to go do some really cool and exciting things. Or as they say, say move from success to significance. It's different.

Age so yours is different, but I vividly remember Pistol was actually there for this. And, you know, I thought my last game was going to be when I was in college. And I was playing at the University of Akron. And I was crying before the game started. And it was awful in the locker room, literally like on the field. It was it was, I couldn't stop. It was unbelievable. And parts of the game went well and parts of the game went bad.

And I remember the game actually started out. Pist, you might remember it started out pretty well. Like I was completing passes through a big touchdown that got called back for a terrible offensive. Through the tears, he's completing passes. Seriously, it was unbelievable. And then after the game, I couldn't stop. And I knew it was because I was going to miss the day-to-day stuff of my teammates, of the camaraderie, of the locker room, of the workouts. And that, I don't know, for whatever reason, just overcame me.

And so I'm curious now that you might feel this more in the fall, but I don't know. I mean, I don't want to speak for you, but what do you think or what do you already miss with the fact that in the fall, you're not going to be in a, or I mean, I guess anything could potentially happen, who knows, but you're probably not going to be in a locker room playing in the fall. And so what do you anticipate that you might miss, or even the workouts in the offseason with teammates? Well, so I mean, I kind of already had that. So every year at the end of the summer, you know you caddy for me out in Lake Tahoe.

I played the American Century Championship. And so this was the first year I played in that to where I wasn't rushing back to go to training camp. And I was wondered years ago, like how it would feel to not be going. If you remember, we played with Jonathan Ogden years ago. Oh, yeah.

And he had just retired. He was the happiest guy in the world. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We were like, we were both of us in awe of how happy he was. And he just, I mean,

he's a Hall of Famer. But he was walking with us down the fairway. And he's like, oh, when's camp's starting? I was like, oh, man, that sucks. I feel terrible. I'm so happy not to be going.

And I was like, man, that's a great attitude this guy has. I guess he really is done. Yeah. So, I mean, I was always years ago thinking about like, oh, it's going to be weird. So this summer I had that going in where all my buddies are going to camp and everything. And I wasn't. And I didn't, I guess I didn't have any of the feelings that people told me I was going to have. And that's something that I, I don't know.

I don't know how my brain works. But I feel maybe it's just because. I push against people telling me how I should feel or how I'm going to feel. That's a huge issue. I have people telling me how I'm going to feel. And they've been telling me how I'm going to feel my whole life since I was a little kid. And I've always, I never, when I was younger, I never really questioned it or everything. I just kept quiet and was like, all right, whatever. No, I disagree. And then now over the last couple years, I've pushed against my, no, man, thank you. I appreciate your support. But no, I'm not you. We're all unique individuals. Don't tell me

my feelings towards any situation I've ever been in. And so I guess I didn't feel, because over you, I'm sure people told you when you're playing, right? Like people say, well, you're going to miss the guys. You're going to miss the locker room. You're going to miss that camaraderie. Yeah, of course. You miss all your good friends that you don't get to see on a daily basis anymore.

But I mean, honestly, I still keep in touch with those guys that I'm super close with. That's the thing. I still talk to them. I still get to see them and we travel and we see each other at weddings, whatever. Yeah, not as much. That part is definitely something you miss that every day. I don't get to see them in the mornings and talk to them. And after a big game or tough practice, you get to talk about it.

Yeah, that's always fun to tell your war stories, whatever they may be. But I guess, like I said, I guess I was lucky to where I played long enough to where my desire to continue and their desire to need me kind of, it timed up. It timed up well. And like I said, if it was after nine years in Green Bay, no, I probably wouldn't feel the exact same way. because I felt like I wanted to still play. And I wanted to go and play. And all I really needed was one more season. I think whatever it was, I hope in my mind,

it wasn't like that whole 10-year thing. That's like a thing a lot of NFL guys will tell you. If they say, they'll ask players, how long do you want to play? And they're like, man, I just want to almost get to 10 and then figure it out. So I just want to get to 10. And I don't know, I don't know if I have that or not. Maybe just because 10 sounds better than nine or eight years, maybe.

It sounds a lot longer. I hope that's not why that that was, but it just timed up well for me. And so coming into this fall, I wasn't really actively trying to sign with a team or anything. And I was ready to not. I took a long trip during the Packers Buy Week with Aaron and Laura and my wife and everyone. And we went on a nice trip and hung out.

And then like he left town. He came back to Columbus for a few days. He left town. And I got a call from the Falcons like the next day. and I was I had to like give it thought that's why I definitely I was like who let me think about this man I don't know I I really want to know if they really needed somebody or they just wanted me to come down and take a look at me and they were like we're pretty sure they need a guy so whatever I went but I was once I was there I was all in 100% like full go at the facility and at home at the little dorm I was staying at my first week they're trying to learn the playbook and make sure that I was accountable to those guys because they brought me in for a reason to try to to be to be an extra guy, basically an emergency backup, but I wanted to learn everything, and they were great bringing me in. But I mean, as far as missing stuff, I don't miss being on somebody else's schedule, which I know I still will be if I, hopefully I'll be calling some games next year

up in the booth. It's a different kind of schedule because you're so individualized and a lot of your prep is on your own. So I really enjoy that kind of stuff. But I mean, the big people, the people you miss a lot, honestly, are like the trainers, like Nate, We're, you guys both know. I married him and I did his wedding. You didn't marry you. Helped him. You officiated his wedding.

I officiated. There you go. Thank you for catching that. To clarify, two of the three of us on this called do weddings as officiants. That's what you meant. Yeah. And pistol and pistol married you, Ryan. He did.

I was an officiated. Yes, I was. So yeah, I was the officiant for Nate. One of the trainers in Green Bay. I officiated his wedding. Flea, I was just texting with Brian Engel, who I'd recorded a podcast with Charles Woodson today, and he brought up

Flea. Brian Engel, his name is Nicole, they call him Flea. Those are the guys that you who really have an impact on you, my strength coach in Green Bay, Mark Levitt, who is just one of the guys that I look up to the most. He's the absolute man and taught me a lot about everything with the NFL. It taught me like there's a whole different,

there's a whole world out there outside of the walls of the facility that we were in. just kind of opened my eyes and I talked to them all the time. I send him a link to a Boss Routon podcast that I recently did. He loves boss. And so those are the kind of guys I think you miss when I could go in after, say after practice was over and I had 20 minutes of downtime between before the next meeting. I could go sit in Nate's office or Flees office or Mark Levitt and I could just talk to them

and talk about their kids and joke around. And those are the times that I think you miss. and you can never really get back. It's like you're leaving any job, whether that be football or not. But as far as the on the field stuff, I mean, I felt like I felt pretty good about where I was at.

And physically, I knew it's not, it doesn't feel great to continue to try to play. But the one thing I think was always my favorite part about playing was like the five to ten minutes after a big win. And it helps if you got to make a few plays individually too.

And your team had a big win, like walking off the field with your buddies, And those first couple minutes in the locker room before they let the media in. And even before the coach gives his talk and tells you guys, like great job and tells you the schedule tomorrow and you break it down. Like those first couple minutes walking in the locker room and like hugging everybody. And the coaches are always coming around, hugging you, shaking your hand, telling everybody good job and congrats, taking your shoulder pads off.

That's like the time that you can never, you can't recreate that anywhere. So that's something that, yeah, you'll always miss. And I even knew in the moment when that was happening, I was like, man, this is when they talk about like locker room or what you're going to miss, I always knew that would be something for sure. When you go to broadcasting, you don't have that moment. When you go to most jobs, you don't like circle of excellence for me where you win and you get caught up on stage with all the executives and it's a big music. That's that kind of can get somewhat close to winning a game. It's not the same. But thinking about your broadcasting, what if you do it?

You've done it once and you're working hard at doing it again. But what if you do it and you don't like it? And you're just like, wow, I don't like this is kind of hard and I don't get the feeling of winning. The measurements are hard to, you know, it's hard to judge just did you do a great job, right? Like your boss can say, hey, that was great, good job or fix this or fix that. But what if you get done and you're like, I don't know if I really like this. This is really hard, but I don't know if it's that rewarding. I mean, I don't know.

I've never done it. So I'm curious, like, what do you think if that happens? It could. Yeah, definitely could, I guess. I don't foresee it happening because I thought about it for a long time before I, my first five years in the league, I had absolutely zero desire to do anything when it comes to broadcasting. I thought like, why would I ever want to do that now? No way.

And I would look at players that would do stuff in the offseason or sit in and for the draft with the network or whatever they were doing. and I just had no desire. And then for some reason, all of a sudden, something clicked. And I realized, like, well, I think that's something I would be really, I would like to try. So I went to the NFL's broadcasting boot camp. And it was like three and a half days of full go intense broadcast like training in every different aspect that you could come across. We had to write scripts for our teleprompter and do prompter reads. You have to call a mock game, do radio.

You have to write, write pieces. They give you homework every night when you, go back to your hotel, all this stuff. And it almost is like it, we, I guess it would probably weeds people out and they realize this is what I want to do or what I don't. And I came away like excited, inspired, like, man, this is definitely what I want to do 100%. And now the fact I, for Fox, I called the Stanford Oregon State game last year. And I loved it. I loved every second of the game. And I loved the whole week leading up the prep and everything. And I did one other game for like a audition for them where I was live at, at,

at the stadium for USC, Utah, where it was filmed, but it was just for Fox's people, not for the, not on air. I love that too. Like, it was exciting and it was fun. And it's something that like you're terrible at. You're terrible early on. You have to find a way. You have to get reps like anything.

And just from where I went from my audition to when I called the live game, I felt like so many, I learned so many things that it's like, man, it's fun because you realize how you're never, ever going to truly. get it, you're never going to call the perfect game, you're never going to feel like you nailed it, and I think that's what's fun about it, is that you're always trying to search and find that, and I don't think

that I'll lose that passion for it. When you think about transition a bit to bosses and or coaches, so there's, I think, distinct differences between, and there's obviously everything's scaled, and I realize

that, so it's not black and white, there's a lot of gray, but if you think about the difference between some of the great bosses slash great coaches you've had versus the unfortunate ones who are not very good at that role. And I'll start with you, Pistol, when it comes to great leaders slash bosses that you've had, what are some of the common, I say common themes or characteristics a lot, but that's because it's important to me to get an understanding from smart people what they see as common. What are some of the common themes amongst the greatest leader slash bosses you've had? but I also would like for you to conversely state what are some of the bad without naming names.

You might want to name names of the good ones, but not the bad ones. But let's take it across the – I'll probably just stay away from both on the naming. Well, if they're good, you might want to give them some props, right? But if you look at the spectrum, I think it's good to analyze both, right? I kept the notebooks for my first day of work of writing down what my manager did every day that I liked and that I didn't like. And I guess I'll say, you know, obviously there was more things in that book that I didn't like than I did. And so that's helped me, right?

I look at it still to this day. And it's become a Google Doc now where I can say, oh, remember, I hated this. And now I just found out that I did it myself. Stop doing that, right? So how about you share that spectrum from great to poor? Yeah. Well, I think the things that jump at me that are common to people that are really effective. that are in leadership roles.

One is when you're being led, right, you're in someone's organization, what do I want most to do? I want to be successful. I want to be accountable, but I don't know how, right? I don't have the knowledge yet. And so I think the degree that a leader can give you this vividly clear picture of what success looks like at a high level, right, as a team or as an organization, but taking it all the way down to you and your work.

You know, what is a successful day? What a successful year? Right. And what are the things that if you're doing these things, you're going to be successful, right? So I've got my roadmap of what's expected of me. And I think that's a common characteristic. And then that that mission and vision they give you at a high level turns into, well, what are their daily and weekly and monthly habits? Do they keep communicating with you? Do they give you feedback that lets you know, okay, I'm doing some things right. And as it happened today, I was in the gym and I was listening. listening to AJ's podcast with his old linebacker coach from the Bengals, Matt Burke. Yeah, and Matt was talking about, yeah, right after the game, I sit there and I review the film and I grade you on every single play. And he seemed quite open to giving you the feedback age. You can tell me if this is wrong, but it seemed like he's quite open to give you the feedback of, yep, these are the 38 times you did it right, and I gave you a plus. And here's the six times that I think you didn't do it as well as you can do it, and I gave you a minus. But he also said, but I'm going to tell you,

why it's a minus. And so taking taking the time to individualize, coaching to the individual, and give them the true feedback that helps them, not just scream at them, give them the feedback that helps them do the job better to me just goes so far. And then the last thing I would emphasize that's different is something I've already spoken about. And that is show up. They're there. I've talked about one of my original sales managers, a great, great guy named Fred Brooks, who the day he became our leader, he showed up in a meeting and he had his little calendar book and he turned the book around and it was the next month and he said, put down the two days that I'm going to be with you. I want to see how you do your work

and hopefully I can begin to help you do your work even better, but I'm going to be with you and we'll do this every single month. And so just being there and being a part of it to me was important. And that's what led me in honestly, being a dad, I have heard AJ talk about, and I've heard you a bit too, Ryan, both of you when interviewed on people who say, well, you know, what did your parents do? AJ's term has often been, he was there. He could wake me up. He said, I wake my dad up and we'd shoot free throws outside. And he'd catch the free throws and throw them back to me. And I remember you and I, Ryan, you'd be out there beside the driveway and I'm throwing, I'm throwing passes that I don't think you can catch.

And, you know, you just go up and keep catching them. So that's, that's to me what it's about. It's really being in the moment focused and being a clear communicator about what success looks like and then just stand on it to help the person be as good as they can be. So I don't assume the bad are just the opposite. I mean, the bad is obviously not doing those things. But there are probably a few specific things that the bad leaders actually do, not just the inverse of what you just said. So I think it's important to note those as well.

Yep, I can. Well, there's all types of in business rights. There's all types of leaders. There's the coach. There's the friend. There's the dictator. There's the spreadsheet jockey. Right.

And so sometimes when you don't know what to do, you yell. You raise your voice louder to, and I think it sometimes just exposes you more, the louder you get. But you think if I'm if I'm loud. enough maybe that I can fake my way through it if I'm a bad leader or if I don't know what to do I look at everybody's numbers and if your numbers aren't as good as they're supposed to be insert screaming here right I I yell at I yell at the number and I get it man we're all accountable to a performance objective especially in the profession I'm a part of sales but don't just yell at the number I get it I know I didn't make that number let's

let's figure out what is our strategy, what are our tactics to get to that number and get past that number. Don't just yell at the number itself. So I think being kind of just surface kind of leadership where I don't ever really dig in is what bugs me the most. And losing recognition that my principal job is to help other people be successful and put them into positions to be successful. If I lose sight that that's my job as a leader, then I've lost sight of what being a leader is. Because I'm not leading things. I'm not leading processes. I'm not leading even customers.

I'm leading people. And they have some things they need. So that's some of my reactions. So, age, you, I know there's some similarities. Specifically, I know the yeller part is very common. For insecure coaches, we've both had them where if they don't really know what to do, just yell really loud. And we've seen those commonalities. I've seen those commonalities in the business world from time to time.

well, right? If you're not really sure what's going on, just yell, be loud, be Jimmy tough guy over email, right? Pistol, you've seen those types. Age, so if you look at the spectrum of great to, you know, bad when it comes to coaching, leading, what do you sense? What have you found in the world of professional football? man I think it goes back to to being authentic and the coach being who he is players are although sometimes athletes can make poor decisions and look dumb from the outside world they're really really smart and they trust their instincts and they can see right through a guy that's fake and I think a lot of athletes have that and whatever it is if they're

authentic guys will they will respect that and it's a fine line I I've seen guys try to be the dictator guy who tries to make every single rule crazy and your socks have to be this length. Your pants have to look like this. Your helmet, you've got to basically trying to control guys too much. If you go too far one way, the guys are going to revolt eventually.

It's usually when you lose a game or two when the players will start to turn on that. So the best ones I've seen are guys that can walk that fine line of they have all those things. They know you can't coach each player the same way. And that's something that Matt Burke, that my linebacker coach in Cincinnati, who's the defensive coordinator for the Dolphins now, I mean, walking into a linebacker room to try to coach the guys, there's so many different, I mean, say he has nine guys in that room. The personalities are each one is an individual guy.

They all come from different backgrounds, different upbringings. Like, it's a tough thing to do to get them all on board. And he even said, like, he would, every day he was thinking about how do I motivate, how do I coach these guys? And each guy reacts differently. And it's always like a try. He said he was a trial on air. What he would do?

And the best guys, I think, do that. They have a clear plan and they want to be led. Everyone wants a plan in place. And communication is like anything, any relationship, any coach, any leader, boss. If you don't communicate what your plan is and what your goals are and what you expect, you got to tell the guys what you expect of them. And you can adjust that if it's too much or too little. As time goes, you need to tweak things.

But let them know. Everyone respects when there's a clear plan, and they just don't want a guy that's going to talk to your face and tell you, tell you one thing. And then up in the staff meeting with the other coaches, they're selling you out and they're trying. I don't know, talking to the head coach, I don't know what he's doing here, coach. I never coached him to do that before and go backside of that block. That happens. And it happens a lot where coaches, CYA, cover your ass. It's a known term in the NFL.

It happens all. Oh, yeah, CYA here, buddy. Like, no. I don't coach it. That's in the business. Is it everywhere? Oh, yeah. Good, yeah.

That's what I'm saying. I'm pushing them as hard as I can. Yeah, yeah. So that's like I talk with Pistol about this. Like in our speaking stuff we've done, there's carryover. And no matter what the profession, everyone has the same issues. And the guys that aren't doing it the right way, slide by their, they try to be loud and yell and say, oh, look at me.

Look at me. Hey, boss, you see me, I'm coaching hard. I'm doing great over here. When the confident secure guys just go about their business and they coach their players hard. and they let them know what they expect of them, and they let them know when they do something right, and they definitely let them know when they do something wrong, and players will respect that,

and same with any employee. And every great coach I've had, they all have different ways about it. I mean, like Jim Tressel, very, very rarely ever had to yell, raise his voice too much, but you 100% always knew who was in charge, who the boss was. He set in the tone,

and he was so detail-oriented, just like Ron O'Reary, our high school coach. They were so into the details, and they let you know exactly what they expect of you every single day. And guys grow to respect that. And that culture is like a trickle-down effect. So then players start to become the leaders and it trickles down to the young guys. And you all know.

And that's how that culture gets created. I mean, I'm sure that's like what they have going on with the Patriots right now. Everyone envies that Patriot way and that culture. And that was created a long time ago. And Bill Belichick and Tom Brady are the guys that lead that. And it trickles down to the rest of the team. And it's such a big deal. creates just culture and all the all the great ones create great culture and mike mccarthy and green

bay said that his first first day on the job was my rookie year he had just got hired and he said this is he he would always tell coaches i don't know if i've told you that i'm sure i've told you this he would he would tell us that our whole team would be in the room with all the coaches and say coaches stay the hell out of the locker room that's the players that you don't go in there i don't want you walking through the locker room at the time like what okay what's going on and then i realized that early on after a while. I'm like, it's cool. It's like our sanctuary. This is where we can go and you can

players can vent about whatever and talk and be themselves. And that kind of builds the camaraderie and the culture. And every once in a while, you'd see like there's a couple coaches that would try to like walk through the locker room. Kind of want to see like be bopping by like they want to be boys and think, hey, I'm one of the crew. I'm one of the guys.

And he'd get like booed out of the locker room. That was the best part. The players kick him out basically when they would try to come around because that was our spot. And that kind of It creates a great environment and the great leaders have that where they'll let their guys. We know who's run the show. We know Coach McCarty's in charge. But he lets everyone be individuals and he wants the team to bond together and he's not going to get in the way of that and try to micromanage every single detail.

So the guys, the best guys can just balance it. You talk about the coaches that we have the most respect for. We played for one of those guys together, Ron Allery, Bob Gregg. And the fact that I think part of the respect that he earned. was we saw the work that he put into it, right? Like he worked harder than all of us. And Coach Trussol, I'm guessing, is similar. And there are others who are like that as well where you couldn't help but respect it so that they,

they had watched 10 times more film than you, regardless of how much film you'd watched. They'd been there, spent more time there. They were prepared. They were ready. And that earned, we earned, they earned our respect through their preparation, through their work. So that when they coached, we knew they were working unbelievably hard to be prepared, to be ready to coach us to be great. And it pushed us.

The other thing that I've tried to incorporate recently personally in my work that I think is important is we don't necessarily get enough feedback. And I, especially for the leaders that I work with, it's that I call with them like we're going to have a little micro coaching moment. And it's going to be verbally as well as written. Because we also, as you move up, Pistol, you know, through your career, you get less and less coaching, as weird as that sounds, right? You have to like seek it out in other places. It's part of why I started this podcast 200 episodes ago, right? And, but I think the micro coaching

are just on the small details that you can do. And it's really had an impact, I think, on me and the people around me to see, like, if you're constantly thinking of what are small details that I can coach. And over the course of a year, those things compound on each other and can add up to huge levels and the best coaches, I think, that we've had, really seek out opportunities to coach the little details because they all understand the importance and how much those things add up to the big picture. No doubt about it, man. I think about another thing to tag on to that, you and I've talked before about a manager

I had that really didn't know much about our work, but he was really good at one thing, and that was recognizing when we did something great and finding ways to give us recognition that it doesn't have to be a big check, doesn't have to be an annual trip to Hawaii, but find ways to give you recognition. And I had this guy who literally, he couldn't have done my job. He knew very little about it. Yet I still really liked him as a manager and respected him because he would create situations where he could drag me in front of a group of leaders or take me to a trade show and say,

this guy, this Keith Hook, this is a guy who sold 14 Comkey 7. 1718's last year. Unbelievable. You know, and he probably didn't even know what it was he was talking about that I was selling. But I think that's another thing is that you've got to find in those micro-coaching moments, also, you know, sports clearly and sales are achievement professions. And you have to get through so much adversity to get to the successes that you do need to find ways to acknowledge what somebody's done to create.

those successes because we've all got some ego in us somewhere and and it's appreciated and it's remembered. And so I could have, if this guy hadn't been this way, said, well, I had this manager that knew nothing about my job and our products. But I don't want to ever describe him that way. I'm describing as this is one of the greatest coaches I ever had because he found ways to celebrate and recognize. So that's got to be done in the small ways too, not just big ways. I recently spoke with Ian Robertson, best-selling author of the book, The Winner Effect, which was referred to me by, I know Pistol Guy that you work closely with, Dennis Mepike, a guy we both really respect. And Ian, a cool, you know, Irish accent, talked to him. He was in

Dublin, Ireland when we were talking, and just a ton of wisdom, really smart, dude. And he told me, though, one thing that was interesting to me was that bad dads and bad leaders do something that he called, they hide the ladder. And what that means is they make their way up the tree. And the tree is a metaphor for whatever type of success. They make their way up and they're successful. They've achieved levels for a sustained period of time. But then they hide the ladder, meaning they pull it up so that nobody else can see how they got there. They don't share what they know. And And I was thinking about that in regards to like our relationship and the fact that did you have to consciously think about leading us or was it just in your day-to-day normal makeup to say, I'm not going to be overbearing, but if they need anything, they're going to get it. And this is still the case to this day, obviously, but to say, you know, the latter is always there if they need it, but I'm not going to constantly be preaching or sharing age.

I know because probably nodding saying, yeah, this is exactly how it was where it's like, you're not constantly coaching it. Because I think I actually might do this too much sometimes where I like slicked coach our girls as opposed to saying maybe I should hang back and let them figure it out or let them come to me with a question. And it's like this really delicate balance that I'm not sure I've done a good job with it yet. And I'm curious, like, did you actually have to think about this? Because I think it's worked pretty well to say, let these guys figure out.

Let my three boys figure out. they might have to make some mistakes, but if they need something, obviously I'm there, like the second they need it. So what's your process or what has been your process for 30-some years in that regard? Well, I think it's probably most important to put it this way. I think it's my job as a parent, now yours, to take you to the door and maybe even shove the door open a little bit, but it's up to you to act once you're on the other side of that door. And so I don't, I don't have great respect for the concept of being a helicopter parent that has to be there and make sure everything always goes right. I actually think we learn much more from adversity than we do from constant,

you know, success and reinforcement. So all the, everybody gets a trophy and everybody's successful, no matter how, you know, you perform. I don't think that that necessarily makes you tougher. I don't think that necessarily makes you better. So, but I, but I do respect the fact that parents really care and are concerned. So I think sometimes you just have to care slightly less or at least participate slightly less. And, uh, you guys have heard me talk about this. I have parents all the day still to this day come up to me, call me and say, okay, tell me all the things you guys did, um, to, to, to, you know, to raise these great athletes. And, um, you know, and I say, I, I married a better athlete than I was. Um, um, um, um, um, um, um, and, um, um, and I, um, um, um, um, um,

Let's start with that, right? Because there's a huge genetic issue to be truly great at sports. But then I back up and say, you know, just give them opportunities. Let them, let them compete as much as possible, stay out of their way. I loved it when I was a kid growing up. You know, you guys talked like this. But my parents should just, you know, they'd open up the door in the morning. We'd run outside. And not only did we go play baseball with each other without any parents involved, we had to build the diamond. I mean, I remember we built a backstop and we carved out the base paths. And, you know, those are good days. And they teach you how important it is to you to be successful if you're really invested in it. And I think a lot of kids that don't succeed, whether it be in music or in sports or whatever it is,

it's because they're not really invested. It's somebody else is trying to do the investment for them. It's almost like the parents sometimes pays the 80% down payment on the house and then it just leaves it up to the kid to pay the final 20%. and the kids never really invested in the house. So I think just our job is to certainly make sure you know where the ladder is and maybe even help you get on that first step, but man, I'm not going to carry you up it, right? You've got to get there. But make sure you can at least see the ladder.

We've got that job to do. So open the door for them, but then it's their job after that. So whether that's conscious or unconscious, I was probably as unconsciously competent as I was conscious about it. But, you know, there's something to be said for following your intuitions, too. How do you manage this age? Because I think I probably have, I think go a little bit cross the line when it comes to being potentially too involved at times and I have to like really take a step back. Because I maybe that's just more normal now or their societal pressures and their social media and you always see all this garbage and that can sometimes impact you.

And I'd be lying. I would say it doesn't have an impact on me. How do you view that with with the kids and in helping them? I think like we're both trying to raise them similar to us, but it's just a different time now. So there's different things that go on, but I think it has an impact on everything that we do. Yeah, believe me,

I think about it all the time. And I almost feel like we have to like create adversity for our kids. Like our kids are brought up with whatever we've done. I mean, it's like I always think about like, man, nothing really great came from people that had great upbringings and had great parents that didn't beat him up and spit on him and stuff like and that's not true but it's all of the crazy like like michael jackson's not michael jackson unless his dad was horrible to him i mean i think people can agree on that his dad was a terrible person to michael and michael whether he would have become what he was maybe he would have maybe he still would have been michael jackson but he wouldn't have had all the issues and wouldn't have died early if he didn't have his dad. So maybe I'm wrong there. So yeah, I'm open to to a debate on that one. I'm trying to figure out where you're going, but I'll let you find your way. I'm not going anywhere. That's the problem here.

Like, I feel like I just don't want my kids to be, obviously no one wants their kids to be spoiled. And we did, we try our best to not spoil them. But just by living in a nice area, going to nice schools, just having decent things and not like not needing anything. Yeah, we don't want to give them everything they want, but they don't need anything. They don't. need extra food. Like we don't have to sit there and you try to explain to him when your son wants to eat oatmeal four times a day or he doesn't want to eat at all. I'm like, hey, man, like, I don't want to be the parent that sits there and says, let's make, uh, make eggs. No, I don't like eggs. Okay, we'll make you french toast. Okay, we'll make you pancakes. And the kid just keeps

saying no. I'm like, no, make them one thing and that's it. If he doesn't eat it, he's going to school hungry. So that's not, it's a lot easier said than done, obviously. But I just feel like we can't, whether it's like handholding too much, whatever it is, we have to stay with it. Like stay, I don't know. When I'm just talking about adversity, just that's something I'm trying to, I'm not creating adversity for them, but I'm just trying when they're at home and when I'm with them to not handhold them too much and not be pressured by outside people to where they may look at me like a bad parent or I'm not helping them enough.

I'm always helping them. I'm almost like you said, like you, probably too involved. and around everything they do. So it's a constant battle. Believe me, I don't claim what any answers. I'm wondering out loud. Yeah. What about when, let's say, Lenin Googles you and sees that you signed a contract for

$36 million to play football? And she says, and because I don't know the level of what she knows, like you guys have a nice home, obviously. But she's going to say, dad, you have $36 million. Like, that's a lot of money. that's awesome, really cool, right? Like, that's a, that's, that's crazy. Like, I haven't really even thought about it until I'm saying it now.

But like, isn't that kind of a, that's an interesting conversation, I think, to have that say like, well, that was, technically you'd be like, well, that was just my first contract. I actually played for 11 years. But I mean, but teacher the tax code. Well, obviously, yeah, you get like less than half of that. But you know what I mean? So, like, she's going to, she's going to Google that, though, at some point if she hasn't already.

And to see, see that, that makes, that makes, what. I would venture to guess could be an interesting conversation. Oh, definitely. And she's not at that stage yet. But she has said, like, she says funny things about, like, people being famous. Like, so just a couple days ago, we were at Pistols House for a little early Easter thing. And she said, she said, Mom, you're so famous. And she's like, no, I'm not.

Lenny's like, yeah, you are. You're so famous, mom, because you're so good at everything. you can draw, you can cook, you work, you're a great interior designer. And so, like, that's her version, Lenin's version of famous in her little, her six-year-old brain, is that my,

that my wife can do a lot of different things well, I guess. So she does every once in a while when we're out in Columbus or different places, she'll wonder like why, she's like, dad, oh, I want to get, she'll like try to,

if someone wants to take a picture or something, she'll want to like pop her little head in the picture and she doesn't really understand but she is old enough now to talk about like she wants to go to Ohio State. Like yeah yeah you played football at Ohio State that's great. And I want to go to Ohio State

and be a cheerleader and they talk like that so they don't fully grasp everything but they're definitely getting to the age where they understand it and I don't know when it comes to like the money thing that's that's something that I always wonder how do you how do you handle it and how do you just almost like get across to them that no we don't.

Things are expensive. We're not going to be spending the money I tell them all the time when they want snacks or things getting out of gymnastics tonight. Like, no, we're not. It's expensive. We're not going to be buying snacks every time we leave here. You don't get a sucker.

So just little things every single day, I think you have to stay on top of, man, because it's real, the easiest thing you know with kids, you can get home right away. If you're like, okay, here we go, give them their, let them get a blow pop. You're going to be in the car and they're going to be happy. But I'm going to be dragging a kid out there look like

people want to take me to jail when I say no. But the thing is, I have to say, And if I say and know once and taking it once they calm down, explaining to them the value of a dollar and how this works and that you don't always get what you want and that we're very lucky and privileged to even have the option of getting things like that sometimes. It's a daily, daily battle that you have to stay on top of. What do you both think about? Because we got college scholarships. And I know you'd pistol, you set aside money. I've had this conversation.

Still looking for that. I'm still looking for that. of the record. I'm just skipping a generation with that money now. No. Do you remember, Ryan? Yeah. I've already made the deal.

We're little kids. We're little kids. He said, you get the money. Yeah, I have a college savings plan place. If you guys get a scholarship, if you get it. I'm still waiting.

I think I got a little money. I don't know how much it was, but it was. I'm holding out on you right now, it would look like a tip to you. You do enough. No. You just talked about. Administrative stuff,

administrative stuff that I've made that, getting my Ohio State ticket and stuff that it's worth it. You can have it. But you guys have let me off the hook on one thing, because I think I recall we used to sit in my little office and we'd write down goals. And one thing I said at one point was, if either of you ever make it to the NFL,

I will get a tattoo. Really? I said that. It's written down in a book. God, I'm really happy. We did not. No way. I'm terrible.

I'm pissed to look with a Packers tattoo on his calf. No, no. I think you got to get an NFL tattoo like on your right. Shoulder. What do you think, H? Yes, that would be, no. It would be a good story. It would make for a good story now. Let's let's put out there publicly. Like, let's, a tattoo artist, email in, the best of the best. We'll stamp that on there and then you tat it up, right? Right. Why not? What difference would make? You're not a corporate guy anymore. Doesn't matter.

Even if you were, I wouldn't matter. I'm just happy because I've diverted attention away from the money thing. So now when, but that's when, when pistols mowing the grass and his cut off every. Saturday, all the neighborhood is going to be so jealous. Yeah. Why do you get that? Just to be a, you're boasting now, I'm bragging. Like, yeah, I didn't kidding me, the NFL. So here I'm going to put the NFL symbol.

But what do you think about paying for college? I ask this to parents all the time, especially, like, dropping kids off at preschool or regular school. I'm like, are you going to pay for their college? I don't know why. Like, this fascinates me because we paid for our college age through our scholarships and worked for it. And it was, I mean, we loved it, obviously.

We probably would have played football for free or I would have paid to play football in college. But I was really happy out the fact that we were able to pay for it in that manner. Pistol, what do you think first about paying for school? Because like Miranda, my wife, you know, obviously she paid for every penny of her college. In fact, we're still paying for it as well as, you know, her car and insurance and everything else. And that built a level of grit that has. has made, that is something that I'm really attracted to, right? It's built her toughness that has made her what she is. And so I'm like, wow, I think that's, it was hard and don't get

marijuana. She, she really struggled, even took time off to work in order to try to live, right, in the middle of college. And I know Pistol you paid for your college, got some scholarship money, but still out of pay. So what do you think about paying for your kids college? Yeah. It will be hard for you guys not to, honestly, given your station in life. I was in a little different scenario. though my parents gave me some money and helped me in college. They clearly didn't fund it. I got a half scholarship for academics and I saved the money I made in the summers and I took out loans.

And I remember many times feeling kind of miserable in college because I think it was too far because I would say I would have these dreams. I would dream, wow, I wish some rich person would just take pity on me and give me a little money because I'm struggling here. So I think at some, and it would probably bother my mom and dad if they heard me say that. So they will probably hear this and think that. But I didn't, I don't mean anything bad about it. But it has a happy ending because I did get through all of it, right?

And I had some debt, but I took care of that later. And it meant so much to me that I paid for most of it myself with some of their help. But I paid for most of it myself. And I had to struggle for it. And, and I'll give you another example. I, all through growing up, you know, You know, sometimes kids had Levi's, which were a big deal. And I had like JCPenny's.

And instead of getting Converse tennis shoes, which were the thing, I'd get Keds. And I remember when I got my first pair of Converse tennis shoes, I was like 16 or 17 years old. And to this day, I have a pair of Chuck Taylor Converse tennis shoes that I wear just to remind me, you had to work for stuff. You had to work for it. And so I honestly, if I have worries about you guys as parents, That's one of your biggest challenges because you are coming at things from a higher glide path in terms of income and comfort and how you assure that your kids respect things like money and respect what it takes to get there. And it's not just an entitlement. And my recommendation is to make sure they see the other side.

They see people who don't have riches. They see people who don't have enough and perhaps find ways. for them to contribute their efforts to help other people be, you know, lift themselves up a bit. That's probably, it's somewhere in there is maybe an answer or a partial answer because there's no way you're going to simulate, you know, being destitute. I hope you never have to face that. So, but it's probably going to be one of your biggest challenges. What do you think, age?

I don't know if I answered your question at all, or I was that's about, no, it's a good, it's a good response. It's not exactly about the paying for college. That's just kind of a starting, a launching point for a kind of an important conversation, but age I know like I said we go back and forth on this all the time and I think we won't know for certain until their college age I guess but what do you think I mean obviously if you're going to be like you know hey we're not paying for your college like what are you talking about you have like 50 million dollars in the bank you're not going to pay for my college

I know that's not well hopefully it is realistic at the time or more than that but but when you when you talk about that like how do you not or how do you help them create grit with all of the things you're able to provide. Man, I'm always trying to figure that out. And we, I mean, every time we have a kid, we start the 529 for them and get everything in order. So I guess what I assumed that we would be paying for it. But every day, I do think about like how, how could we, without saying, no, you're not,

we're not paying for your schooling. I mean, how do we instill that in them? I mean, I think it's the same thing by example. I mean, I tell them about Laura, the same thing I said about Miranda. Like Laura, my wife went to UK straight out of high school, went there for two years, paid her way, got school loans, everything, paid her own way, always had like two or three jobs, got an internship out in L.A. working for Fox because she thought she wanted to be a sideline reporter for a couple years. and she quickly learned she did not want to do that after she got in. But she,

so she went to Cal State, LA and she had like five different jobs living in a side room of these, a couple, a married couple's house. That's when I met her, I went out there and stayed with her in these people's bedroom in their tiny little house. And she was like their maid,

clean their house and paid a little bit of rent, but always had like three or four different jobs. Her always, her whole life. We always joke. She's worked everywhere in Dublin. When she was in high school, she worked at every restaurant and coffee shop around. So she always had like that crazy independence and that grit to just move out to L.A. on her own

and not have her parents really helping her out and just say, all right, she would call home when she wanted to talk to him and stuff and wanted to complain about the L.A. traffic, but that's about it. Like there wasn't any handholding. So I think we try to remind him of that, and she's really good about it. And, I mean, you try the little things like actionable steps, I mean, like during Christmas time, just we, we go to the, there's like a retirement center down here. We, Laura and the kids and I, they made like a bunch of cookies and we walked around the retirement center and delivered them to all the old, old people in the retirement center and just talk to them to try to get them like exposed to people. We want to take them on trips to different cultures to show them that, hey, this isn't everywhere is not like this. We're very, very lucky.

we won the lottery and I say it all the time being born in America you win the lottery and uh yeah going down and letting my six-year-old serve at the homeless shelters you serve meals at Thanksgiving time and Christmas for the last couple years just things like that we can try to show them that everything isn't always everything isn't the way we live in this little bubble where we are but i mean it's you got to show them by example man let them know let them know when you can and they are they're already old enough to joke about. I pistol, no, I say all the time, like, hey, you know, like, we didn't have, when I was growing up, and Mimi and Papal didn't let me watch TV. I wasn't allowed to watch TV in the living room before I went to bed. And they were like, really?

I'm like, because we only had one TV in the house. There's none in our room. And we weren't, you have to exaggerate the stories and make them sound worse, naturally for the kids. But I would say that. And so, dad, they'd be like, oh, no, dad. You know, every once in a while, they'll say, yeah, Papa, Papa was really mean to you. He disciplined you a lot. I was like, yes, he did all the time. And I listen. I listen to my parents.

Just like someday you're going to be parents and you're going to want your kids to listen to you. So little things like that, I guess you try. But that's the great thing about being a parent, man. You never, you never, it's like, what do you? I don't know. For me, it causes a lot of like, wonder. Like, man, it's crazy to think your kids are going to be old and driving a car someday. So I just have to, I have to find a way to make,

teach them to make good decisions. That's the only thing I can do. And then you got to let them go and trust your instincts and trust that they're good kids, I guess. But it's hard not to raise a spoiled kid, especially now. I 100% agree. About done here, I think. But I was curious. Pistle, you've heard some of this already.

But I haven't heard it from your perspective. And that is now that you've transitioned to the next whatever, a part of your career, you know, you leave a lot of people, colleagues, friends, coworkers behind. What do you hope when they say, when someone says, Keith Hawke, he was, you know, this at his job, or he's so this when they think about you. What do you hope that they say or they remember you when they, I guess nowadays we call it your brand, but what do you hope they say when, when attributing something to your name? I would hope the thing that would occur to them the most is that some sense that at some point in their career or hopefully more than some point, lots of points, that I help them.

I help them be successful. We have this saying, and you know it, our success can only follow the success of others. And I think if you build your career with that mentality that I'm in the job of making other people more successful. So if I'm with a customer, I want my customer to be more successful. If I'm with an employee, I want them to be more successful. And if you keep doing that year after year after year, you know, you've planted all these positive seeds all over the place that, you know, when you retire, and that's, I got the beautiful opportunity to see a live in an actual ceremony, you know, a guy stood up on stage

and said anybody that Keith Hawks helping your career raise your hand. And I got to see a lot of hands go up. I mean, I clutched up once I saw it. And it was, unfortunately, it was the first minute of the event. So I had to recover. But that's the most important thing. Did this guy help me? And then the things behind that from just a characteristic standpoint, I'd hope they say,

really somebody of integrity and honesty, you could trust them all day, all night. You know, they're going to do the right thing. They're going to always try to do the right thing. So those things are most important. Help them and high integrity. Age, I was talking with Jonathan Butnik. He was a, I guess he worked in PR, right, for the Packers when you were there. And we've actually become good friends room together in Tahoe and now text all the time.

Because he's in the work in the profession of selling. We've talked a lot. Just talked to him recently, actually. And he said when you and I recorded a video when the Packers released you after nine years. And Butnik, I remember texting me, Jonathan Butnik said, you know the part that I like the best is that one of the first. one of the first group of people that AJ mentioned were his strength coach, Nate. You've already talked about him in this podcast. Again, all of the people that most people don't even think about or they treat like they're below them.

And that that's who he was thinking of and that's who he was going to message in Buttig's like that show just the type of guy he was in Green Bay and why everybody loved them. It was hard for him to be released because it wasn't just the players and not even just the coaches. but it was everybody within the organization that really hated that day. They didn't like that. And I thought that was a really cool thing because it showed, I always like to tell people like treat the person who, in certain office buildings, you have people who literally take out the trash.

They come and pick it up and they throw it away, right? And that's a tough job. But I always try to model and show people that you treat that person just as the same as you would if the CEO walked in your office, right? you treat him exactly the same. And I know that's something you employ. Pistol obviously, employs.

And so when people talk about you, what do you hope that they're saying now to say, oh, yeah, AJ was here for nine years in Green Bay. He was here for a year in Cincinnati. He was here for three weeks in Atlanta. What do you hope that they're saying that like, but that guy was really this or he's really this? And I'm curious of what your hopes is that they're saying.

Ah, man. I mean, the first, like, so something Mark Levitt and Strength Coach in Green Bay, he always would talk about do you make other people feel good about themselves and that was like when he said that he wouldn't like he wouldn't preach that to us but that's something that when we would have our little one-on-one talks when he's always searching he goes on rides a little scooter down the great wall of china goes to Tibet does all these like fun trips he does by himself and he's always like seeking out what high-level performers and these monks how they do and he's really big into self-discipline and just always exploring. He always said, like, those guys make others feel good about themselves. I was like, man, the more I think about it, I was like, I hope, to be one of those guys. I hope I'm someone that other people feel good about themselves when you're around them. And that's obviously not 100% of the time. It's not always going to be the case.

It's not the real world. But hopefully just someone that is accountable, whatever it is. And like, you're talking about Jonathan Butnick, when I was first, there. I didn't even realize that my first, like, Bunnick's first two or three years, I was so good buddies with him. He was an intern, like barely getting paid in Green Bay, and I always just assumed he was full-time, had a big-time gig.

I never understood even what, and I feel bad when I tell him that. But, I mean, those are the guys that I connect with a lot or all those, whatever, all the trainers. I mean, just Red Batty, who's a famous equipment manager in the NFL, he's been for 35 years

or something. Red was just texting me, a couple days ago talking about the Columbus Blue Jackets and Red's going to come in town if he comes in town for a playoff game. He's like, can we meet at Tim Hortons and have some coffee because Red's from Canada and Tim Hortons is huge as Canada? So like people like that,

T-bone, who's the another equipment guy who set up my flight with the Blue Angels, I went. Like, guys like that are the ones you talk to more than anybody throughout, like you come in. I show up and I'm one of the, say I'm one of the first guys there early in the morning, guess who's there? The equipment guys,

the trainers, all the people are so-called support staff that the place doesn't run if they're not there. So I never in my mind will look at it like, oh, these are the guys that do their job. Like, no, they're just, they're awesome and they're there to help players out. And that's what they're trying to do for the good of the hole. And so maybe that's why I connect with those guys so much. I could relate to them a lot. But I mean, I don't hope guys think that I was accountable. And like pistol said, like I showed up. Like, you don't ever have to question me. That's all I care about. like I'm going to be there. I'm going to be on time.

And you can trust that I have, I'm not trying to look out for just myself. I think if we all do well, that I do well. Like that's how we all, if we win the game, we all, good things will happen to all of us. And I think that's how it works in everything in life. I'm glad you said it. I don't know why it reminds me this. I was just reading this from Gabby Reese said this. I think it's interesting.

I don't know if this even relates, but I just thought of it. she has a practice and a habit of she says you need to go first. And it probably means something different than like a lot of people talk about like, yeah, if the lead, you have to be the first one to go. But that's not what she's talking about. She said when you, it relates to age, I think, when you said, I hope he's a guy that makes other people feel good. Gabby said, you need to go first, meaning when you see somebody, a stranger or anybody

smile at them. Because if you go first, you're going to create them to smile. And that's going to create them to smile. it's going to create them to smile and it's going to be this contagious thing. So if you're always consciously thinking about going first to your equipment manager, to your support staff, to the guy taking out the trash for you, if you smile at him, you ask him how he's doing, like it's going to make his day better. And if, and that becomes, again, compounds and it can, it can really ripple out. And you don't know like the wake you could be leaving behind you is pretty powerful,

especially if you're a, you know, kind of a marquey guy. Like both of you have been those, positions where Marquis guys that people look up to, but if you're leading the way with a smile, you're constantly in conscious thinking about like, okay, I got to go first pistol. You always talk about the fact that it's your duty as a leader to be in a good mood because it's going to have an effect on everybody else in your organization. It makes a lot of sense. It relates to what Gabby's saying. So I think for now we've about an hour and 35 in.

Maybe we've gone long enough. Is there anything that I missed that you guys wanted to cover? you did not get to you didn't get to ask Pistol some of the books he's been reading because he's he's fiercely been Googling cliff notes of like really highfalutin books so he can sound really smart so take it away pistol hold on let me see your notes you have notes of books don't you like I know he's going to ask me about books hold him up camera um yeah I do I've got I've got this one I really like a lot get real selling and I've got This one about Pete Marevich. Yeah, I was ready for it. By the way, for all the audio listeners, which is 100% of my audience, we're actually doing this one on video.

And my too, pretty much. Yeah, well, we're doing it on video, so it'll be on a YouTube page. And when you click to YouTube to see it, it'll have like 38 views because this is all audio shows. But you can watch and see us what we look like and see me taking two and a half pages of notes during this conversation. No, is there anything else I missed, though, besides your books? There was one thing you talked about it at the very beginning. when we retired, right? And what are the things we missed?

And I've had so many people say to me about my own retirement and about AJ's, man, it must be sad. And I'm like, are you kidding me? We've had the greatest run one could ever imagine. And Dr. Seuss said it right, man, right? You know the quote I'm going to give you. Dr. Seuss said, don't be sad that it's over. Smile that it happened.

That's where I feel. about it. Yeah, I agree. I agree. I think it's it's interesting to hear, not even interesting, it's just bizarre almost to hear people. And we both get those comments aged. Like, you probably don't even realize I don't sit there in text you every time somebody comes up on the street or a colleague says, ask me a question about you. I mean, we're usually talking about a podcast or a book or a documentary or something like that. And I think it's, it is kind of a bizarre world where people talk about the negative aspect of it. And it's like, man, this is, this is as good as it gets for us as a family member that one of our family members were able to do what, what you've done.

And it's just a beginning now. Like, it's just a beginning to see what's next, which is, which I, I'm most excited about to see all the good stuff that's about to happen now that this, this playing. And I think Pistol, you probably think this way too, towards the middle to end of your career, it went from being like really excited to being almost nervous every week. Because you read about head injuries. I've sent you all those articles I know where I'm like, hey, man, like I think about this stuff a lot more now. I'm not, I'm more, maybe just more well read.

And this, this concerns me to where it's like, I think now we're like, I'm kind of glad that you're not doing it anymore because I don't have to worry about you getting your head knocked off or getting paralyzed or getting your leg blown off from your knee having to be scoped for the 300th time. You know what I mean? So it's interesting the way that I think we, I think, get to the same place to being like, this is good. He's in good shape. Everything's okay. Head seems to be all right. I hope, you know, knock on wood for both of us, but you, you know, I have 11 more years than I do

at playing the game. So fortunately, it seems like we're all in pretty good shape. Yeah, we are. That's, it's another, like I said before, people fall into like that trap of telling people how, like letting people tell you how you should feel. Like, no, I think John, you guys know Jaka Willen. He has like the greatest advice. He posts little videos. People ask him like, Jocko, what should I, what should I do? I've been really feeling down the dumps lately. What should I do? And he's like, wake up early, move, stop feeling bad about yourself. Like, just simple advice. Like, don't be sad. Like, obviously we know it's more in depth than that. But no,

just you have a lot of power, man. Like, you can do it. You don't have to let everybody tell you how you should feel. Just like when Pistol always tells us, well, they say you should only have four grams of sugar a month. Well, who's they, Pistol? Oprah? I need to cite the sources. Yeah, so like don't listen to they, whoever they are. It's not anybody. You're your own person, man.

You can make your own decisions and your own beliefs. I agree. I love it. All right. Well, thank you. It's been a pretty sizable one. I've enjoyed it. It's episode number.

That's what she said. Perfect. And I will add congratulations on episode number 200. Maybe we'll do it again at some other milestone. We create these milestones. Two plus year. Wait, Pistol, when you first saw this, age and I were talking about like my intro music. I was sending them logos.

I was doing all this stuff. And this was in December and the show didn't launch until April. When you saw the first episode launched, I'm more about, though, as you guys know, not talking about something before I do it. I'm about doing it and letting you respond after, except for the very, the only people I think who knew about this before I launched were age Miranda and Greg Meredith, a mentor of mine who's who's helped me and actually really pushed me to do this. Pistol, when you first saw it come out, because I don't think I really talked. about it to anybody outside of those three people. What was your thought when you heard the first few episodes? Well, I was happy. I was really happy because I thought, this is a guy that's not just sitting there and just doing his job and falling into the rut of being, you know, I'm going to

go do my 40-hour job or whatever it is. And then, you know, you were trying to stretch and reach. And so I was excited just like I would have been excited if you were taking guitar lessons or you were trying to learn to fly plane. You're trying something outside. side the norm that I knew wasn't going to be easy and was going to have a lot of challenges. And you've clearly pushed way beyond those challenges. So now it's on rails and you're taking it even higher. So I was excited at the beginning, but I didn't quite know where it was going to go. Well, it's amazing where it's gone.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. Appreciate it. Let's do it. We'll figure out some other milestone to do it again. A. Three Way.

If people like it, let us know. I think AJ Twitter official A.J. I don't think you're really big on the Twitters other than retweeting some of our stuff. But if you want to share, go ahead. It's at DK.K. Hawk 30. All right. Thanks again. We'll do it again.

All right. Thanks, man. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to Learning Leadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world class athlete, or anyone else that insomely. inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again and we'll see you next time on the Learning Leader Show. Proud to say that this episode of The Learning Leader Show is brought to by Roan. R-H-O-N-E, Rone.com,

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