The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 210: Noah Kagan - How To Start A Business

Episode Date: June 18, 2017

Episode 210: Noah Kagan - How To Start A Business Noah Kagan was the #30 employee at Facebook (started there in 2005), and the #4 employee at Mint.com.  He came up with the idea of real-time updates and executed with one engineer (Mark Slee) at Facebook.  He is now the Chief Sumo at Sumo.com (A domain in which he paid $1.5m to own.  We discussed why on this episode). This episode is different than most in that it was more conversational, and less interview.  There was real-time coaching, and off the cuff conversation about how I should progress The Learning Leader.  If you are uncomfortable with creative use of the English Language (re: use of curse words), then skip this episode.  If not, I think you'll really like it. "You shouldn't get a job... You should get a career." Show Notes: Sustained Excellence = Getting feedback from professionals Noah hired pros from NPR to review his interview transcripts. "Most of the time we have too much.  Need to edit it down." How to create a narrative -- The NPA producer changed his life Employees -- "They are not my people. They are people I work with. I don't like the word employee." How do you hold others accountable? -- Autonomy, coaching, help when needed.  Hire correctly. "What I'm great at is starting..." How the quest to India changed Noah's life "You'll almost always push hard on the last lap." The impact Mark Zuckerberg had on him when he worked for him at Facebook "When I was at Facebook, there was a singular focus: Growth." "You shouldn't get a job, get a career." -- "I was a cubicle monkey at Intel" Using a journal to plan your day/week/month "Here is a story I've never shared before..." Why you should always ask yourself..."What's exciting for me?" Why you should go on walks with your spouse/significant other Instead of building something in a month, why not build it by Monday? -- Do it quicker than you think possible You need to constantly try and test it out... Don't overthink it.  Will people pay me for this?  Keep evolving Keys to building your audience "Art of The Deal" is a helpful book Noah's salary?  Low 6 figures "Good people don't work for cheap rates" The two ways to scale a business Technology People What Noah learned about vision -- Initially didn't believe in it... But he has matured and fully believes in it. "As I've gotten older..." "It's much easier to get what you want when you know what you want." The impact of Noah's Dad dying had on him "I'm much more protective of my time" "Good people don't ask for cheap rates." Social Media: Follow Noah on Twitter: @noahkagan Go to: Sumo.com  Connect with me on LinkedIn Join our Facebook Group: The Learning Leader Community To Follow Me on Twitter: @RyanHawk12 More Learning: Episode 078: Kat Cole – From Hooters Waitress To President of Cinnabon Episode 071: NateBoyer - Green Beret, Texas Football, The NFL Episode 179: How To Sustain Excellence - The Best Answers From 178 Questions Episode 107: Simon Sinek – Leadership: It Starts With Why  Episode edited by the great J Scott Donnell The Learning Leader Show is supported by Rhone.  Use the code "Hawk" for 15% off.  Rhone... premium activewear engineered with principle, performance and progress for the modern man.  Rhone builds clothing around 3 main tenants: Cutting-edge Performance, Premium Comfort, and Simplistic Style.  

And when I was at Facebook to the original point, Mark was very, he's very smart. He's not a normal person. And it's not really a surprise that they've created that if you get a chance to hang out with them. But the thing that he did very well was that he had a very singular focus when we were there, which was growth. And it was at all expense. It was like nothing else mattered if it didn't help us grow. And so with sumo.com, which is our marketing software to grow your email list or app sum, which is our group on for geeks, we've always done well where we've had yearly singular goals.

Hey everyone, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it here on the Learning Leaders Show. This episode, however, is different than normal. When I reached out originally to ask Noah Kagan to be my guest, I knew he'd bring something unique, different to my show. And I wanted that. I think it's good to try new things, to have different styles. And what you'll hear is Noah, a guy who was the number 30 employee at Facebook, number four, you it meant now the chief sumo at sumo.com is just an unbelievably interesting guy who is willing to challenge you and push you and make things uncomfortable also uses a lot of language that some people might not like if that is not your thing I would skip this episode I delete it and just move on however if you're okay with that then I would forge on and so we we got into so many topics. It became like a mentoring, coaching session for me. And Noah did a good job of

helping me understand some of the mistakes that I'm making. It also gave a great encouragement. And I think we developed a cool friendship. This was scheduled for a 30-minute talk on Noah's calendar. He had to push back two different meetings because we wanted an hour and 17 minutes because there's just so much that I think we both found interesting about it. So I appreciate you being here. You're going to hear a lot about interviewing, a lot about critical feedback, mistakes, uncomfortable moments, why you should go on more walks, what it's like, as Noah called working for Intel, Facebook, Mint in the early days, and now running his own company. So there's so much here.

I'm proud of this one, even though I know I'm a little bit concerned and nervous about it. But I think Noah's a unique dude who I'm happy to call a friend. We're already texting each other saying how fun this one was. So ladies and gentlemen, thanks again. for being here if you decide to forge on it's Noah Kagan the pita or tortie actually it's a tortilla it looks like fucking diarrhea yeah that's not what you want to eve it's a good way to start man no i was i was parched and hungry that's all good yeah well i'm not apologizing for it it's okay to be hungry yeah no i mean i appreciate you uh being here i i have to tell you're

the first uh guest out of uh two hundred and some that i've ever given any money to. I think I, when I saw your, is it on your about page? I don't know what it is where you said, you know, there's a better chance of me responding if you send me a gift card to Taco Deli and I'm like, anyone who just puts that out there like no, that's a no brainer. I'm sending the cash and seeing if you'll do it. And you're like, boom, you responded right away. It was awesome. The, I would have responded if you didn't send it to by the way. Oh, I know. No, the, are you recording, by the way, or not? It is, but I mean, I can cut it whatever.

No, no, no, I love when people record because the banter and the things we talk about right now are actually going to be more interesting when it's the formal thing. I agree. But what's really interesting about what you're saying is that someone commented on Reddit. They're like, man, no is a, I was doing a Reddit AMA yesterday. And they said, oh, no, is a dick. And no, that's like, dude, I'm like, I'm happy. I'm sad. I'm like just humanless like anybody else.

But what I realize, though, is that if you're trying to get responses from people, it's how can you make it exciting for them to respond? Yeah. And so then you'll have to be considered of what you're asking. So it's two important things. And I'll share a story with it. But people email me and they're like, hey, man, I got this business. Here's a very complex problem. How would you solve it? I was like, I don't know you. Who are you? Like, you don't give to people on the streets generally. So why is it with an email? We expect a lot. But on the contrary, you sent a $20 gift card. Like, I'll go out of my way to respond. There's a guy I wanted to meet, this guy that does YouTube videos, Tim Schmoier. He's a very popular. on YouTube. So he's like, it's $400 an hour to talk to him. Sure. Okay, because $400 for that knowledge or whatever he's going to teach me for the rest of my life. Yeah. I was like, that's cheap if you divide it by like two years. Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. I just, I like the originality of it. And I thought, why not? And normally I would send some type of thank you afterwards, but I'm like, why not try both this time, especially when he's asking it. I just, I'm, you know, I'm a big fan of your podcast. I listen to all of. I don't, I'm really picky about

podcast too like just especially the newer ones and I like the way that you keep real and you don't seem to you just you just say what's on your mind but there's also some thoughtful questions involved and I love studying interviewing it's something I was going to add in my notes to talk to you about today is just your thought process around interviewing because it's something I get asked about a lot in both a corporate job because you're hiring people right for for sumo and your businesses you're hiring people you've been hired by big companies or actually you were hired when they were small companies now that have become big companies, hired and fired, I guess. And so that's why, like, your interview process really fascinates me because it's,

it's original, it's fun, it's loose. Like, even like you're one with Ferris, Ferris, you know, Tim's obviously well known, but yours is different than probably anyone I'd ever heard because you don't bow down to the guy. You just say what's on your mind. And I thought it was one of the more enjoyable ones I'd heard to him do. Yeah, because a lot of them, one, thank you. And I actually want to know, I'd love to, I'd like to hear more of your backstory.

Yeah. For me with the interviews, it's just like, one, can I read this shit online already? People ask these questions. I'm like, bitch, did you just check out the site, Google? Google, and you'll find these answers. And then similar to you, I listen to a lot of podcasts and YouTube. Yeah. I think the two major things is that like most people aren't really putting in enough effort.

They're like, hey, tell me your story. I'm like, dude, like some guy last week, I was doing an interview, tell me your story. And I was like, you know, the story has been told so many times. And it's better use of my time is not telling my story. It's going and creating things. So then I have stuff to talk about in the future. And the second thing, two other things that have been helpful is I've been trying to like, I've been editing my own podcast for the past month and a half, two months.

And it made me really realize where I'm sucking or where it's interesting. Yep. And as you're saying as well, Ryan, like going and studying people who do good interviews. There's already good people out there. Go study their shit. So I paid an NPR producer. Well, I can't say his name. But I paid an NPR producer because they produced the best material.

And he just taught me how they did it. Really? What did he say? Like what are a few things they said? And talk about it, dude. No. I'm curious now. Yeah.

No, it was really fascinating. He changed everything for me. So, because I think one thing I'm trying to get better at personally is like, if I'm trying to get better at mountain biking or chess or podcast or YouTube, just go fucking pay these people. thousand dollars whatever it is and forever you get knowledge and you get that improvement yeah so with him he listened to one of my episodes he listened to my episodes and then i gave him an outline of one of my upcoming episodes so i'd say the major takeaway from him was just most shows youtube

podcast blog posts whatever you're creating have too much so that was the number one thing and i that really stuck with what do you mean too much there's he's like what we do with we spend probably two hours interviewing someone and then we'll put in 10 seconds of what they said. Yeah. And I think that was a really interesting insight where it's most people are just putting out their whole their whole shit. They just take a poop and a toilet and they're like, enjoy all of it. And you know what? Actually, somewhere in there, there's a pretty good nugget of poop. You know, there might be. I mean, do you edit yours or do you release the whole thing? No. So, well, well, I've evolved with that. And I think that's kind of how business should be where you do something and you keep involving and

improving. And so I originally, I just put out the whole thing. I'd record it once. So I had a recorder and it would just be me and Ryan hanging out and it'd be a recorder. Yeah. And it sounds like shit. I didn't plan any questions. I'm like, it'll just be off the cuff. And once I did it, I just put it out. And I think that's where I've done relatively well in business because I pay attention

to what's working and listen to certain people's feedback. And the feedback I got was the audio sounded like shit. Yeah. And this NPR guy said, you know, you have this episode that's an hour and a half, but really 15 minutes of it was the most interesting. So that was number one. been a lot more aggressive. I use a service called Trint, T-R-I-N-T-com, which is a fucking amazing editor for transcripts, and it's pretty low-cost compared to other ones. So I started editing

everything I was saying, and I saw how I was phrasing things. I saw where I went on bad tangents and good tangents. But it really helped me cut out a lot of the stuff that people now are listening to episodes. Like, dude, these are really good. I'm like, you know why? Because you didn't hear all the shit parts. And so that's number one. Number two is help me become a better interviewer because I'm editing my own transcripts. And number three, the thing that he really said was, how are you creating more of a narrative with signpost? So we start this episode and it talks about how an NPR producer changed my life. And then I'm like, well, what happened? Well, in today's show with Ryan Hawk, you're going to learn today about what exactly happened in that. And then you have

the story. So like hook them, beginning, middle, and close them. And so he said when you're doing that, you also got to give people signposts. So we, we have. did this thing, but what happens next was crazy. And so you kind of kind of keep hooking them along. Because with podcasts, you know this. The data is very weak, so you don't know what they're listening to or who's listening or how much. Yeah.

So, you know, his overall thing is have less shit, have more of a framework, and then you've got to put these signposts there to have an actual narrative. I've noticed you broke it. You've broken some recent ones down in parts. And you even will say it at times. I think you flew a guest or one of your listeners in. who won a contest and you said, all right, part three. And then you went on the, like, you kind of like, it like broke it down.

And in a way, it made it, made it interesting. I'm like, I never really thought of that where you almost had segments within a podcast. Because part of the reason people like podcasts is because it's long form, I think. Like we, we like the long form because they're used to radio and used to two minute sound bites. Whereas for us, you know, you could talk for an hour or more and still cut out some of the, the, the parts that need to be cut. but long form can be interesting because you can go deep on a few specific topics that normally you can't do if you only have a five-minute sound bite. I think that's something, I don't know how you do it. I don't know shit about you, so I won't let you off the hook.

I talked to Jordash yesterday, one of your guys. I don't know if he told you. And he's like, dude, he's like, get ready. It's not going to be like any other ones you do where they just sit there and answer the questions. I'm like, I already know that Noah, I was like nervous for this one. Honestly, dude, because I knew you're not just. going to sit back and answer the questions you're going to like challenge me or you're going to be like that's a stupid question or something that long nose lines but in a in a nice playful way but like

I'm not trying to be I think you're honest though and that's why people like you and follow your stuff some of the stuff um what was the uh I'm not sure where we're going but man anyways okay I was I was thinking about like some of the long form uh they're referring to yeah yeah and I think it's what I've realized by it is that most of it's pretty boring Yeah. Oh, this is what I was saying. So originally when I started doing episodes, I would come with like 15 questions. And what I've realized, and I think to your point, which I agree with is that now I only come with three. And I really think about what are the three that matter? And then it helps me stay on track. Because if you start asking questions, people will go wherever the fuck you take them. Yeah. And so I'm like, well, if I could find out three things that I think would be really interesting for myself, what are the three I can talk about. And then from there, you can go wherever rabbit holes you want. But it kind of helped me simplify what's really most important. process is I lay out, I have, I have notes that are laid out based on interesting things I've learned about you over the last, I don't know, month of listening to podcasts, reading some of the stuff you've put out online. And then I, I just have an Evernote that says Noah Kagan.

And every time I hear something or I read something, I just update the Evernote. And then before you know it, here are a bunch of notes. But I know, obviously, you got to organize it, as you said, and not just say, oh, what about the Michael Jackson theory? Or no, what about, uh, the buying a jaguar is a mistake or you know like if you just start bouncing around some of it can be fun but i do think it's important to try to have some sort of structure and process of seeing where do we want to go yeah i i think with just any type of medium and what i've been learning and maturing about is that people don't want a lot like when you go to dinner you have a dish you have a piece of chicken yeah and so sometimes when you have a buffet it's nice because you can try things but

generally people find a dish they really want and the same thing goes i don't know that's kind of a shitty analogy, but the same thing, what I've noticed with content is that if I try to tell 15 different tactics of marketing or five different things you could do on sales or something that works with growing a business, people will take one thing. Think about it. Like next time you have a conversation with someone, wait an hour after it's over and think about what you really took away. You'll be like, well, actually just that's one thing. And so I'm not great at this, but what I'm trying to get great at is how can I just focus on that one thing? So that really when I'm talking to someone, what's essential, what's the one thing, that they're going to take

away, I'm going to take away. And then the audience can be like, oh, fuck, yeah, we get it. You shut the fuck up about it. Like, that's the point where I'm like, okay, good, because I found the most interesting thing. And then I just like stay on that. And it's hard. That's a challenging thing to stay on track with that. Speaking of a yesterday, so I had like an hour and a half long Skype call with one of your sales guys, Jordash, about sumo.com. And going into it, I was fully planning on, you know, buying, paying the year and having it updated for my site, learningleader.com, because I have not focused, I've not done a good job on email capturing. That's some of the copies really bad. And you had, I think, was it Neville? Is that his name?

Yeah, Neville. Neville. I'm sorry. And I was listening to that and I felt like, oh, God, there's so much I could do. And it just, you become your own, like, worst critic when you look at it. And so Jordash and I had good conversations as far as what needs to be done, how to better capture emails. I know you've talked a lot about this from using the tools, the copy, everything that is, that's included in that. And so it was good to have a conversation. And I was curious, like, how you, like, what do you look for when you're looking to hire people for Sumo, especially when they're going to be front facing, they're, where we're doing video Skype calls with potential customers. And I assume I just got emailed because I signed up for the free stuff. And, and then he said, hey, let's talk about some of the paid stuff, basically. And that was what yesterday turned out to be.

How would you, how would you rate the call? And then how would you have improved it? This is where I'm starting to turn things around. Yeah. I thought he's a very personal guy and was really helpful because I just I told him, I said, like, there are areas that I have strengths and then there are areas I have weaknesses. I think I have an understanding of that. And the email capture is not very good. Although it's gotten kind of better recently just from, I think, having consistent process of sending out like a regular newsletter.

People seem to like it. They share it. They forward it to their friends. And then they want to sign up too. So Jorash was good, though. He explained the process of what they could do of like a, like a, like a. a landing mat or what's or a welcome mat, I think. And just some things we could add to my website to help capture that better because it's needed. And especially if you're looking in the

future of potentially writing a book, an online course, whatever else could could happen in the future, you've got to do a better job of capturing that. And so that was, that was the primary basis of the call. He was good. And how could he be improved? Because you didn't buy on the call, I think, right? You asked for a discount, which I liked. I was like, ooh, that's good. Oh, did he tell you all the details or what happened? What did he say? So what I heard was that you asked for a discount and then you also asked for someone to help you manage it or he offered for someone to help manage it for you. And then I got asked, hey, is this like one of your best friends? Should we hook him up or not? And did you say yes? Maybe you could say yes

tomorrow or today later. Well, my suggestion for them was to figure out what kind of value is being generated through this. Yep. Before we just go and start discounting everything. Some of the best products in the world, like there's no discount on an iPhone. Yep. There's no discount on a lot of the things that you want to buy. Like it's just like, hey, this is the best price.

Why? Because there's a lot of value in what you're buying. So I asked to have somebody help implement and execute so I could focus on other things. And that's one of the things I do with certain things that I have, I don't have, at least I don't want to devote time to doing the execution part. Like if I just give, can I pay a certain amount every month to have you just do it for me? That's what I said. And he threw out a price to do that.

And I was like, well, like, I don't think I want to pay it. Only because the bulk of my like fans or listeners, they listen on their phone on iTunes or Stitcher or whatever, Apple Podcasts are called now. Not necessarily going to my website to listen and the bulk of my content is the podcast. Different than obviously your situation. So that's why I was like, whoa, man, like that seems to be probably a little bit. to Steve. And then he said, well, what would you be willing to pay? Oh, he's, he's getting better. That's, that was a kind of an awkward question. And I didn't know what to say. I said, I don't know. I mean, much less than what you're telling me.

So that was kind of how I went back and forth. But then to his credit, because salespeople, sometimes they struggle in the follow up. He followed up like an hour and a half later and was, and all the email said was, Ryan, call me. Here's my number. And I was like, huh, wonder if he wouldn't talk to Noah or wonder what happened. And so I did. I was like on the, I was meeting up with, friends for dinner. And on the way there, I was like, hey, Jordash, I saw your email. Let's, let's talk. And so that's where we, we talked a little bit more. And we have a plan place. And where'd you guys end up on the pricing? I mean, I'm like waiting for the club. We're just, we're just going to have like an initial consulting call slash execution following it.

So I'm going to pay like by the hour initially. We're not going to know we, I didn't know we did that. Well, it sounds like you empower your people to, to, to lead and to, to, to, to make decisions. And that's, that's a good thing. I mean, I think that's what good leaders do. Well,

a few, a few things on that. One, I'd never like the word employees. I can always encourage people to, because if you hire employees, they're not really people who think. Employees are people who do.

Okay. And then they're not my people, right? I help start the company and I help lead the company, but they're their own people. I don't really own them. And I think what I've realized, I've had a pretty big breakthrough two days ago about leadership.

And I know that's what your show is about, which was, give people a very clear guidance of where the goal is. Like, hey, here's where I want you to go or here's what I want you to do. And then give them autonomy, which I hate when people say autonomy because it's one of these things we all hear. We're like, okay, autonomy. I get it. But what autonomy really means is that you need to be a coach to them and help them accomplish the goal.

But for the most part, leave the fuck along. So how do you hold your people accountable? I'm sorry, I said it again. So the team members, people that are a part of, Sumo, how do you, it's just more how to hold the people that work there, the teammates or the different people that work there. Well, accountability is very simple. It's like, well, what's the expectation? That's, I think, what actually one of the most important things in running a business is what's the expectation you have with your customer? What's the expectation you have with the people

you work with? And I do have this belief, and I'm not sure if it's going to be unpopular, but, and I still think I actually 95% really believe this. And this is how it's been for a long time. In terms of sumo life, which is the way we look at our company, the number one priority is the people. A lot of people are like, it's the customer. It's the customer. I'm like, well, if our people are fucking pissed off or unhappy, I don't think they're really going to like any of their customers. And I don't think they're going to build great things or sell great things or support great things. Whenever I see a company that talks about the number one thought is the customer, I'm very concerned because the number one thought should always be the people who work at the company. And if

you treat them right, they will treat your, like Jordash was obviously excited to work at Sumo. He's excited to work at your company. I mean, he said that to me, and I could sense it in the way that he talked to me, and that's an inspiring thing for a customer. Now, I will tell you, I've become a fan of the work you put out, and I see the results that it could provide for me and my, what I'm trying to build. And so I was probably going to buy anyway, but I liked, it just solidified it having that Skype call and the fact that he was obviously empowered to do

work. And that starts with the leader. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but what if there are people like, I'm sorry, what if, what if someone is obviously, they're, they're not pulling their way. They're not doing a good job. I mean, what's your process to fire somebody or let somebody go? Or how do you, like I said, I holding them accountable to, to saying, and because not every, every hire is going to be perfect. Not everyone's going to do a good job. At times, you're going to have to let people go. How do you do that? Yeah, I would say historically we've sucked at it. I mean, I've been running this company seven years, and I've started companies before. Right now, we're around 40 to 50 people. And I was actually thinking of a funny joke. Someone, I got fired at

Facebook, and then they've gotten big. I quit mint, and then they got sold for 300 million. And more or less right now, I'm actually not that involved day to day on sumo. And not because I don't want to, but Chad, my business partner is better at running it. And so I think they're going to get big now because they kicked me out. So what do you do then? I'm so what I realize my job is is that so we have two product lines and I can talk about firing and hiring and how that's worked for us. But what I'm what I'm great at is starting. And I think what this is something that I've really fully come to appreciate and understand and and not feel guilty. We have a, especially if you're Jewish, you have a lot of Jewish guilt. But you feel guilty for what you're not

great at. And you're like, well, I should be able to do this. But at the same time, why don't you double down on what's working? So for Sumo and App Sumo, let's start with that. I started this, I started this business by myself because I didn't want any partners. Then eventually my business partner was a contractor and then he became a partner. And now he's one of my best friends and one of most essential people in my life. And we grew it to a good amount of money. I think we're making $5 million a year. And I just couldn't grow anymore. And then I went on this India quest to, and I walked around India for a month. I grew a very big beard. I got food poisoning, a lot of diarrhea.

And, you know, they ran the company without me, and it was the best month they ever had. Wow. And from there, what was that? What's that? That was February 2014 or 13. Okay. And then from there, what was interesting is that we ended up having Anton run the company, and now Aiman's been running app sumo, which is our group on for geeks, and he has doubled the business.

Wow. And it wasn't overnight. You know, it's funny. In retrospect, we always think things are easier. That's why I love what my mom said. She says, you always got to push hard in the last lap. So if you push hard in the last lap, you never really remember how hard the race was. And so, Amin, when he started, it wasn't amazing.

But now, you know, we worked hard. And now in retrospect, it didn't seem that bad. But this guy has doubled the business. And for the most part, this is something I realized about two months ago. I was having brunch with someone. And they said, well, how's Absumo doing so well? And I was like, you know, what's the formula for Absumo? I was like, well, Amin has a goal, and I leave him the fuck alone.

And then I ask him questions. once a month when we meet. And if you ever needs anything, I'm 100% there any of the time. I'm not one of these like, yeah, I fucking never work. And I've got all these people that are just slaves and they just sit in some fucking jail cell working. I think that's horrible. I want everyone to have a good life. So I'm empowering them, not empowering them, but like, I want them to be around me. And I want their lives to be better. And the realization that what Amon was, he has a goal. He does what if fuck he wants. And then I'm there to support it, whatever way possible. And then that's what's kind of left with Sumo, where I started it in the first three

years we've grown it to a seven-figure recurring revenue business. People seem to like most of it. And we've had struggles, man. It's most of running a company sucks. And I talk to my business partner, I'm like, you know, I've gotten it to the point where I think it's, it's stable. Why don't you take it to the next level? You have a bigger vision for it than I do. And then I'll support it with putting out content or creating, you know, complementary products that'll help put fuel on the fire, which is what my strength is. So I'd say overall, for almost all leaders out there, it's really taking that time. And I don't know if it's the Strength Finder's book. I haven't really read that. I don't think I've read it. But it's taking the time to be like, well, what am I great

at? Let me spend all of my time doing that and find people that actually love doing all those other things. And it's great. That's how you really grow a business. Because there's no way that I could do support because I hate people whining to me all day. Like I could do like a half hour. And then I just started being like, all right, just don't buy from us. And so, and I could do it in the beginning of the company, but as we grow and that's like all day, but Jamie and the people on her team love doing that, or Samantha with recruiting, or Troy with webinars, or the developers, or some of the marketing people, like, they're better at me than that. So why not enable them to do the things they enjoy all day? And then I'll just go do all the things I enjoy all day. Do you have a typical day?

It's interesting you say that. I have a, every Sunday I plan my week. So the way that we've structured our company, and I'll just tell you, I learned this from market at Facebook, is that we You have a singular goal. Mark Zuckerberg. Mark Zuckerberg, yeah. So for the people who are, that don't know you yet, what's your, what was and what, you know, how did you and Mark Zuckerberg become colleagues, friends, you know, coworkers? Jewish, Jewish brothers. We're not, not friends.

I was a cubicle monkey at Intel and I was going to quit. My dream is always to start my own business. My father came to America and sold rugs. and carpets. And eventually started his own copier business. I think you kids these days don't know what copiers or fax machines are. But there were these really cool, you know, antique contraptions. And my goal was always to kind of start my own company.

I don't know if my dad influenced me. I've always been doing it. It's always funny. You know how everyone always says, oh, yeah, I sold pencils. I'm like, we should just give kids pencils in elementary school? And then see who really wants to sell them? That's like, all right, you're starting the businesses. The ones who want to just like buy them in people?

all right, you're going to be employees. Yeah. And it's just, you know, it's not always the one who get goods grades who are the most successful from external validation. And anyways, longer story. So I was going to quit Intel and, you know, I didn't really want to work for anyone, but I think what most people do incorrectly

is that they go get jobs. And I don't think you should get a job. You should get a career. And a career is just something that you really love doing and you want to improve on. It's like a skill or a craft. And so the career for me was never going to be at Intel and starting a business or being at companies

helping them with either their product or their marketing. And so Facebook, I literally sent it my resume. I didn't have any hookup. I didn't have any friends. But I was building college-based businesses for the past five years. Like in college, and even after I graduated, I kept running websites and products. So it was kind of a natural extension.

And that's how I ended up there. And when I was at Facebook to the original point, Mark was very, he's very smart. He's not a normal person. And it's not really a surprise that they've created that if you get a chance to hang out with them. But the thing that he did very well was that he had a very singular focus when we were there, which was growth. And it was at all expense. It was like nothing else mattered if it didn't help us grow.

And so with sumo.com, which is our marketing software to grow your email list or App Summo, which is our group on for geeks, we've always done well where we've had yearly singular goals. Coming back to your original question, you're like full circle, like Lion King. we have a yearly goal and what we've gotten over the years now is instead of just a yearly goal which is too short term we created a five-year plan which still has a yearly goal for this year but it's a five-year plan otherwise every year you're kind of starting over and we've had struggle we've had problems with that which I can talk about later but we have a yearly goal and then we have monthly goals and then for me personally each week I come up with what things am I doing for work workout or personal and I've done it every and I have a kind of a kind of

ability buddy, Adam from my bodytutor.com. And I email how did last week go? I do a review of last week. And then I send him what I'm going to do this week. And then I put it in my calendar, the things I'm going to do for work, work out, and personal. And what's interesting is that we have to recognize our personalities. And so, and I love Adam. And I'm not saying but, I love Adam. And his week is literally the same every week. I can tell you exact things he's doing right now. He's probably, it's three o'clock. He's on a phone call. In two hours, his kids kind of go home. hour he's going to go to the gym unless he's doing his morning gym routine. My weeks, I don't almost want anything the same. My week, it's like everything is always new. And I think as I've gone older,

I'm trying to reduce my novelty chasing. But to some extent, that's my personality. I like scheduling. I like planning, but I don't want my weeks to feel like Groundhog Day. Yeah. And so that my, like my days is generally, my week is somewhat structured in terms of like certain days I like doing certain things. But I like variety within my week versus like doing blog writing, you know, five days a week, eight hours a day, you know, in my 20s, yeah, I was super excited about that. But now I'd rather find the people who like to do that and then coach them, teach them and have them be the writer. And, you know, it's like Steve Kerr of the Warriors. Like he's not playing on the court anymore. He's a coach. And then Curry and these other guys are winning the games directly.

How often do people ask you for career slash life advice? Pretty often, which I'm like, which is confusing for me because I'm like, look, I think one I've experienced now, but I'm like, yo, I just live my life. I'm not trying to be a self-help person. I just help myself. And then I share my stories because I like seeing other people help themselves. I think the challenge for me sometimes people look for other, a lot of times people have the answers themselves, but they don't want to just do what they already know the answer is. So they're looking for external validation. And I do it too sometimes. Like I'm like, oh, I know this is what I should do. but I'm going to ask Ryan.

I'm like, Ryan, what do you think I should do? And I think people have a lot of expectations of others. When it's like, I think real empowerment, real confidence, real success a lot of times comes from what do you really want, taking time to think about it and making choices for yourself. Yeah.

And that is challenging when people come to me like, hey, can you solve this problem? I'm like, fuck, man, I can solve it for myself. I don't want to fuck up your shit. Good luck with that. Yeah. So I asked that because I kind of want to do that right now. I know that's funny because we're just talking about it.

but yeah go so for example just something that'll help you i know but you might validate what i'm already thinking and i think you will but um so you spent like 1.5 million dollars to get sumo.com you wrote about it it probably kind of went viral at least from what i saw to talk about why you did that and and you can talk about that too maybe within your answer but um one of the things that i go on walks with my wife because it helps with idea generation we talk about things to do things to add to to whatever we're doing and i said you know i want to start something or or add an extension to do something more. And I said, well, I'm trying to think of like, what do people ask me to do? This is stuff you've talked about also on your podcast. What are people asking

of you? Or what questions do you get asked a lot? And if you just continue to answer those questions, you could probably charge for it at some point. And the questions that I get asked the most are one, are about two different things, interviewing within the corporate environment to hire, to hire people because I've done that thousands of times, as well as then separately interviewing people on a podcast because I've done that 210 times or so. And so she's like, I think you get asked so often about how to hire good people, how to interview people that you should create a course on interviewing. And so I immediately came home and I bought how to interview people.com. And there's another website or an URL, interviewpeople.com, which is $524 currently to buy right now.

And so I thought, should I buy that? And I thought of, no, I'm like, what was the thing? Sorry, what was the thing? So interview people.com has cost $524 to buy right now. how to interview people I already bought was like 14 bucks whatever normal stuff and so I thought I wonder what no would say because he spent 1.5 million dollars slightly different given the fact that I'm thinking about a course and I already have a website that people go to and you have your you know your business going you spent 1.5 million so knowing all of that what's what what's as I see you kind of like you know you're thinking I'm curious what's going through your mind right now so I was let me tell you a story. that I haven't shared is that two months ago I've been I do this thing called self-diagnostic where I sit in my chair I bought a really nice chair because if you buy sometimes when you buy nice things you'll probably use them more often or you'll enjoy using it okay and I sit in this chair in the

morning and I think about I called self-diagnostic but what it basically is is that how's life going and how do I want my day to be that's all it is it's not complicated it's basically my form of meditation and I've mentioned this to people and I can always tell them whenever I mentioned self-diagnostic they're like damn that's how cool I love it I can't wait to do it And then I got excited. I'm like, man, this is going to be a big thing. I should consider self-diagnostic. Let me go see if I can get the domain.

And so I go to self-diagnostic.com. And the guy was like, I want $1,500 for it. Or $2,500, excuse me. And I was like $2,500, but that name, I can't believe it's not taken. It's only $2,500. You know, there's actually something there about not having money where you have to solve with limitations. It's a whole other discussion, very longer discussion.

But having limitations is actually very helpful because now I have some money. I'm like, okay, fine, $2,500. So I put a bid for $1,000. And that's actually another interesting lesson is that there's no cost to bidding on things. Like you can low ball, and not in a rude way, but you can make low offers on anything, like a house or a domain or whatever. And there's no cost to it. So what's the risk? So go for it.

And they came back and they said, we want $1,900. And then I went to GoDaddy or whatever, name cheap. And I search self-dashdiagnostic.com. 999. or if you use like a fat wallet or go whatever it is honey extension or wiki buy it was like 299 so i was like let me get self-dash diagnostic and then like i then it was the weekend and then on monday they didn't come back with the counteroffer and i was like i don't even fucking care about self-diagnostic i was like what the fuck i'm going to do with the two thousand dollar domain

that ain't going to be shit and so the i don't know if you get the moral of the story but my encouragement to you would probably be you're already doing like the whole entrepreneurship in my mind which is like I'm gonna buy a domain and it's gonna be this much money and I'm not saying that's not an approach that can work some people will be like no it I did it and that worked and the point there is that you can get to the same destination through a lot of different routes yeah though the the root that I've generally found works best is find something that works makes money before you go and invest a lot and then when it works that makes money invest as much of it fucking takes yeah so when I when I started

app sumo.com, March 2010, I try to buy summa.com nine months later for $50,000. Because I was making a few hundred thousand at that point. And I was like, okay, 50,000. But they were like, no, we want a quarter million. Wow. And I'm like, a quarter million, this is crazy. And, you know, seven years later, a million and a half dollars, I was like, you know, it's something I really wanted. And I had the capital. And it was a long-term asset. where no matter what, like let's say even a lot of our business goes to shit, like I would start a Gmail competitor and sell out the domain, summa.com. Or I just knew that there's a lot of things to it. And I know that owning that brand was, there's not many large brands that don't have their own domain. Like even, you know, Slack or Stripe or Facebook, none of them started out with their original domain. Think about it. The Facebook, Slack HQ, get Stripe. And now they all own it because they're rich as fuck.

Yeah. I'm not saying that we're at their level whatsoever, but the point I would encourage you, and maybe that this is your answer, but just go selling your course, make some of that Mool-law, and then you're either A, no one wants it, and then, God, you didn't waste on the domain, or B, people want it crazy, and then a $1,500 decision is fine. And even if they raise it on you, $2,500, who cares? Right. If you're already doing it.

No, it's good advice. I had a feeling, typically the proper thing to do is just do the work, right? do the work, create it first, ship it, and then, and then worry about the other things behind it. So, like, that's why it's like start writing it, start actually doing it, putting it out there before you worry about the other things. But think about this. Why is that? Why do people tend to do that first? I have a thought.

Do what? Do what first? By the domain and all that kind of stuff first. It's easier. Yeah. Right? I mean, yeah. Or it's just like saying, why do you say, like, well, I'm going to write a book.

I'm going to, right? there's a lot of things that people are going to do. And I prefer, I'll tell you this podcast, this funny story, this podcast that I had, it started two and a half years ago. I'm real, like, weirdly sensitive about telling people things I'm going to do. I prefer for them to see what has been done. So, like, I didn't tell my parents. I didn't tell any of my friends.

I told nobody, one of my mentors who pushed me to do it, my wife and my younger brother, who I talk to every day. And so other than them, nobody even knew about it. And I recorded like 26 episodes before I released one. So I knew for a fact, I got eight weeks worth of content. And then people could be like, what is this? My friends, my family, additional because I just really am, like I said, kind of sensitive to the, I'm going to do this or I want to do this instead of just saying, well, no, I did this and I'm doing it. That's good for you.

Well, I'll put you on the spot with it. Josh, I guess gave you the, unfortunately, that. heads up. So what are you going to do about your course to see if people actually want it? Well, I got to get it done first and then I think I eat. What? No. Okay, so this is the same thing. You're going to go spend a bunch of time building a course that you're not sure people want. Yep. So you would ask people closest to you if they would pay for it. Don't worry about what I would do. I know. I'm semi- Otherwise you'd be a bald Jewish guy living in Texas. I'm semi-asking for advice.

Well, I think the thing, you know what's interesting? I was walking. yesterday. It was very good. It was so cool. It was like some guy recognized me on the bridge in Austin. And he's like, yeah, man, I listen to your podcast. It's the best one I ever heard. I was like, yeah. No. Anyways. And then he said to me, he said, you know, I'm working, I'm like, oh, tell me what's exciting for you. And I actually think that's a really good question to ask people, what's exciting for you? Yeah. And so he said, oh, I'm building an app for real estate. And I think when I was in my 20s, I'm 35 now, but I was in my 20s and I was like, well, how are you building in? What's the problem you're solving, who's the customer, where are they? There's only three questions in starting a business.

What's the problem? Who's the customer? Where are they? And he said, oh, man, it's this app. It's going to connect my audience. And I can message them new properties. And I was like, I'm like, it's kind of like an email, right? You're just going to, no, but it's going to be in an app so they can have it right away. I'm like, well, their phone probably has email too. And I was like, oh, well, when's it coming out then? He's like, oh, end of the year. And I don't think you can really convince people that are, that don't want to be convinced. They have to learn it for themselves. And so I think that's what a lot of times when I'm giving advice, I'm like, don't even give people advice. Go try it out yourself. Do it right now, figure it out. And when it doesn't work, then maybe you listen to me or someone else that, you know,

you're interested in. But to you, I'm not, I think if I tell you what to do, you may not do it. And so I think that's why I always like to ask people like, what are you going to do? And then maybe poke a little bit of a, you know, poke at that. So why were you poking when I said I was going to write, write it first? All right. Let's dive into that a little bit and then we can understand. And then I'll just suggest. Perfect. So which course did you decide to create or which thing did you decide that you wanted to be an expert in?

Interviewing. Interviewing. And hiring for people. Companies, corporations, I've done that for 12 years. And so we're continuously to interview and hire people and helped others do that as well within corporations. So is this like, and so who would buy this product? Anybody who would potentially hire. So is that HR manager, recruiter, director of people?

Leader of sales teams. Yeah. Yep. Okay. And so let's say, and what's the plan right now? Walk me through that. You're going to put together the course. Yes.

So currently, there's like an outline mapped out of the process because I think the most important thing when you talk about. So for example, if you're in a corporation, you get promoted to a management role. Most companies do a poor job of training you of how to do one of the most important things, which is interview, hire, what to say, what to ask, what to know what to look for. And I always say you have to understand the why behind every question that you ask in that process. What are you looking for?

Why are you asking that question? Did you just read it on a paper and that's why you said it? No, like understand why you're asking them to go through the resume or why you're asking them certain qualities that they think leads to success or whatever may be. And so the problem is people don't, they're not good at that. They just rattle off questions. And so they need to understand their foundational process and purposes behind what they do. And so I think there could be a better job of, we could do a better job of teaching people how to do that.

So it's outlining that thought process for people. Okay. And then so how much longer do you, what's the plan on it? The plan is to write. I know, how long, how much longer? When is that going to be finished? I could get it done in a couple weeks, probably. And then how are you going to get people to buy it?

Well, I would, the main platform I have is my podcast and my website. In my email list. In my email list, which is you started finally investing in that, which is smart. Because it's one of these things that even if you don't do anything with it, which you should, that when you finally do have products or services that you have an audience that's ready for it. Right. Versus podcast, podcast, man, I let you know, my Shanoa Kagan presents. People aren't ready to take action on podcasts because they're either on the toilet,

they're at the gym or they're driving. Right. And so they're not actually like, yay, but on an email list, if they come to learning leader.com, they can finally get updates and connect with you and so forth. All right,

so you're going to spend two months making a course, maybe send out an email, find out that people know, and you're going to send an email and no one wants it. Yep. Right. Potentially.

Right. And now you spend three months on something that no one wants. Okay. Okay. So the way that I would just reframe it, and this, when are you going on your next walk with your wife?

We go probably tomorrow. I think that's a good thing, man. You should brand that. Walk with a wife. That should be like a segment of your show. Okay. We do. I wrote about my email list that actually got the most clicks of any article I ever put was about walking.

I mean, there's a lot of science there. It's not like a new thing. But still, I'm a big believer in it. And was it walking with your wife? Yes. So I don't think I'm smarter than anybody else. I think I'm above average, but I don't think I'm gifted. I think what I've done better is that I do things.

Like, I just go. And then afterwards, I'm like, oh, shit, maybe I should have thought about that. Which, it mostly has worked that well, but sometimes it works that bad. The second thing I think that I've done well that I encourage others to do is if that was your most popular email you've ever sent, I would just start considering how could I do more of those kind of emails? And what was it about that email that worked? So there's something interesting with that. One of the things I did that was a little bit different on the link. I kind of said, this is why you should instead of, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't,

broadcast what it was. But I said, like, there are ways that this helps with idea creation, creativity, innovation. And if you want that, then click on this. And so people probably like, well, what is he talking about? I didn't write in the email, like, you should go on walks, but then you clicked on it. And then you would, I clicked on, you click on the link, and then it tells you, you know, the science behind going on walks. And so that was, I'm sure that was part of it was the way it was written. And I might have had some do with Neville and the fact of some of the copywriting to say this is the way to get people to be interested. And I was testing it out, really, to say, instead of just putting it out there right in the body of the email, what if you're

a little bit, I don't know, cagey, is that the right word or whatever, just to get people to click and it worked? Well, I think that, you know, it's amazing. How many times you hear innovations that came out of accidents? Yeah. Like, oh, yeah, you know, I actually made a mistake. And that mistake led to something really great. Or people start their own. breweries because they're not trying to make a brewery, they're just trying to make great beer. And they're like, people love the beer. And they're like, anyways, pay attention to what's working. Point being, though, I think what's interesting about what you're saying is that you're

going to spend two months on unknown. And I think, you know, part of what makes life interesting is unknown. If it was all known, it wouldn't be that interesting. Right. Because you're already going to know everything. You wouldn't go watch movies when you know the endings. So I guess the thing I would think about is that if what I've done, and this is what's what's worked for me is, what if you had to figure it out by Monday, that people,

wanted it or not. How would you figure out if they wanted or not? I don't. You tell me. I'm asking. No, I know. You tell me if you had to find out by Monday. I would actually say tomorrow, but I'm going to be nice on you. But yeah, fuck it. Let's do tomorrow. Tomorrow and a day. Like, what would you do to figure this out? So I would, okay, a couple things. I would ask people close to me, friends, uh, colleagues, people that I've worked with. And I would also send, uh, what would you ask them, sorry? That's one of those things where people give like a general answer. What are you asking? So I would say I am writing a course on how to interview people. And it's going to help you become better, understand why you ask the

questions you ask, understand what exactly you're looking for in those people. And this is going to help you to be better at doing that. Okay. And so you would call them or text them or email them? Yeah. Or what? I would call them. I would email. them, I would do all those things, text them. I would also send a note to my list saying the same thing. And so why haven't you just done that first? I don't know. I think it goes back to like the podcast. I recorded 24 episodes before launching a single one of them. I wanted to get the work done and then launch. And, you know, part of that was a little bit of iTunes strategy two and a half years ago with new and noteworthy and releasing. And I studied how to better optimize that, you know, reviews,

rating. It's a little bit different now, I know, to get into a new and noteworthy, but at that time, it was, you know, consistent publication. So that was part of it, but I still kind of think about that of getting the work done and then launching as opposed to building the plane as it's flying, so to speak. I said it earlier, and I think that I want to repeat it where for a lot of people that they're like, no, no, it's wrong. And I'm not saying it's wrong because you can get to Mexico through driving, through a bicycle, through, you know, roller blades or airplanes or boats. I don't care. Raffs.

Yeah. And you could still get there. I'm just trying to find the shortest way possible to save the most money in time. And this is what's worked for me in my career. So I do think that can work, but I like encouraging you to do it within a shorter period time so you understand that they want it. And guess what? When you find out they want it, then you could actually serve exactly what they want versus

assume what they want. What about? Yeah. So like the caffeinated gum, right? That's what something you started? So what was your process for why did you do that? So I don't, we're not going to excuse you, but I started a caffeinated gum because I wanted coffee gum. Okay.

I want gum that tastes like coffee and has caffeine in it. Generally, most of the business that I've started are just things that I want solved and no one else has done it. So I just do it myself. And then I thought it would be interesting to then make a business as a case study to show other people. And I hired someone and then we started to do it. And then I said, I don't really want to run a gum company. I'm not interested in it. And the other person wasn't interested in continue it. But the point was is that within less than, I think it was around two weeks, I was pretty clear. I had three people that gave me money. I had a product that actually didn't taste that bad.

And I think has still potential someone else wants to do it. And so I think the bigger thing that I'm encouraging you to do is how can you see if people want that? Because what you might find out is that no one wants it, which is great. And the second thing is then, What do they want with recruiting? Is it actually the interview process or is it finding candidates? So the big thing, the big message I'm trying to point out there is that when someone rejects you, like if you rejected Jordash, well, why is email list not important? Okay, well, it's not important because blah, blah, blah. Well, it sounds like actually it might be important or, well, what's more important instead and then really understanding what the customer needs?

And so that's where I'd say if they say reject you, great. You didn't waste all that time and money building it. The second thing I think is you're realizing is that if you already had a larger audience on an email list so that you can communicate with them directly, then you don't have to go out and find customers because you already have been working and building that relationship with them. Makes sense. Okay. This is such a different type of episode I'm having a conversation, but it's so helpful and it's good. I appreciate it. What do they normally like?

Well, I mean, I have like a list. There's a lot of authors. So I don't know. And so we're talking about some of the things they've written about. Whereas now we're having like a one-on-one almost like coaching session moment. But I think people, as you said before, they enjoy kind of getting a peek behind what it sounds like when somebody is helping somebody else one-on-one. And that's what you're doing. And obviously we'll help other people who have similar thoughts based on whatever they're thinking about creating.

Well, you know, this applies to almost every type of business that we can talk about authors as well, Ryan, which is a lot of authors. Everyone thinks that their memoir is the most interesting. Everyone's like, oh, my book, I'm like, yeah, there's a million books that come out a year and maybe a thousand of them get popular. And probably even less than that become legacy books, which mean they'll be around in 10 years. Very, very few. Like name five books. You can probably name four-hour work week, Strength Finder, seven habits, and a few others, but very, very few. Because most books aren't that great.

And most authors spend 80% of their time writing and 20% promoting. But if authors actually did what we're talking about with your course, where they actually went out, built their audience, started blogging a bit more, built up people that want their material. When they actually finally come out with the book, it's not like, oh, I wonder if it's going to sell. I don't believe in hope for business. So all people that are trying to write books, go out, build your customer base through

content, through one-on-ones, through meetup.com, through a Facebook group, whatever it is, and get that audience built. So put out the material and see what's resonating. And from there, then you can actually go out and create a product that you know you already have a customer's for. So like I'll, I'll actually experiment with tweets. And I hate when people talk about Twitter in real life. But what I've done actually, and this has been interesting for me, is I'll put out a bunch of different tweets about blog articles I find or just quotes I think of. And what I'm looking for is where's the highest reaction. And then

that's where I go create content or think about how do I expand on that? Like should I go interview someone around vulnerability? Should I interview someone around essentialism, which is one of my latest shows on Noah Kagan? And it's because I just look for what people are actually responding to versus just putting out random shit that I think people want. There's a Venn diagram of what you want to be doing and what the market wants. And if you're not, if you're not overlapping, you don't have a business. You don't have anything that's going to be successful. You talked about money.

Do you know DHS, David Hennemeyer Hanson? I don't know him personally. I know of him and I've chatted with him. Okay. So I just had him on and he wrote a post about the day he became a millionaire and, you know, he bought like a Ferrari or Lamborghini and some other things. It was interesting because you talk about this too. I think I was a solo episode about when you went out and bought a Jaguar.

And people seemed to like that part with DHH was interesting. I got emails and text about like, oh, I liked when you talked about the money. And so I'm like, well, this is kind of, this happened to you. No, as far as too, you became kind of, I don't know how much money you make. I know you said you pay yourself market rates. And I was curious to know what market rate means. And so you can answer that if you want. But in addition to that, you said you went out and bought a Jaguar.

and why it was a horrible decision. And so I think people who are striving to improve, one of the things they're looking for is to make more money. And so when you ask somebody who is kind of, you're never fully there as a leader and you're progressing, you're never there. But, you know, if you make enough disposal or you can blow money on an expensive car, then you're kind of financially, you're in a better position.

So talk to me about why that was a mistake. Also, what market rate is for the job that you do. at Sumo. I'm curious, especially when you can spend $1.5 million on a, on sumo.com. So yeah, go ahead.

So whether you like Trump or not, his book, art of the deal is actually surprisingly good. I don't know if he wrote it or whatnot. Yeah, he had a ghost writer. Right. Yeah. But the actual content on negotiating is really good.

And what he does in his book, and I just want to finish this with a sumo part, because it is actually very interesting, is that he made a lot of his money on deals that no one else wanted. And then he figured out a ways to be creative about it. And so sumo.com literally has gotten hit up for the past seven years to get sold, but for some reason, we were able to do it. So it was hard to get and we got creative. And so the way we

actually finally did it was I gave them two weeks to accept my offer. And I offered them a shit ton of money, but financially we pay it out over five years. So I only pay $16,666 a month. And so when you actually annual amortized the amounts over a monthly basis over five years, it's a actually not that big of a percentage of our revenue, and it's not that painful. One in a half a million up front, dude, I would, I'd probably have to come sleep on your floor. Right, I'm not that rich. And so it's, the creative part actually is what made it really available for us. Now, in terms of my salary, I make very low six figures.

Okay. If I were to go be a VP of marketing or like director of marketing, probably VP or something of marketing or something like that, I'd probably be making somewhere with equity and all that kind of stuff all in yearly, probably 300 to 400. Yeah. Okay. Maybe five. But how many streams of revenue do you have personally?

I, you know what? I've tried a lot of stock investing, and I can tell you more about all of where my money is. I have no problem sharing the majority of it. But what I've realized is that most people, if you have a traditional day job, just go by real estate. If you're like my stepfather or my mother, he's an engineer, she's a nurse, you can't turn the dial to make more money. right? Your boss says this is how much you're going to make. The cool thing about running your own company to some extent is that you can turn the dial, grow your business, make more money. And so real estate is a way that hopefully, if the market stays good, which it's not guaranteed, you can do, you know,

make money in that. But what I've realized is that I've tried to do stocks and I'm literally like the shittiest stock picker in the world. Everyone always brags like, oh yeah, I made money in Apple. And I'm like, dude, I can't make money in shit. No matter what I buy, it goes down. But the, the, The lesson learned from me is that two things. Number one, just go make money where I know. What do I know really well? How to run online companies. That is really my specialty.

So I don't try to make a lot of money in real estate. I try to make a shit ton of money in the internet world. And then I could buy whatever real estate I want. Because there's a lot of other people who spend their eight hours a day doing real estate. And I probably won't be beating them. The second thing is that if you're not going to be an expert in it, just go give your money to the other experts in those places. So I use Pearstreet.com where you can actually invest in real estate because experts go and buy it and you just give them the capital.

Or I buy index funds, which was Warren Buffett's highest recommendation. And maybe he's trying to hold this all back from beating him. But there's something there where the guys like, look, if you look at index funds, this is the only thing that's consistently performing versus trying to pick stocks. And so then I just buy Vanguard and some Schwab like dividend and, you know, large cap and S&P index funds. And I try not to worry about it. because I'm actually more conservative once I, this is something I noticed from a lot of entrepreneurs. They're actually very conservative with the money they make.

With their business, they're like, oh, I spend X, I make X plus five. Sure, let's do it. But once they've gotten the money, they're like, oh, protect it. Like, I just want to, I don't want to mess with it. And I'm kind of in that mindset where one, focus and make money where your sweet spot is. So if you have a date job and it could be real estate, if it's that. If it's a business, go do that. If it's in stocks, go do that.

I don't care where it is. But go allocate your time around that. And then the other part, like, try to, for me, I just don't want to be distracted. Like I had this crazy thing, not crazy, but three years ago, I started getting into real estate and I wanted to buy a bunch of properties. And so I spent probably half a day for six months looking at real estate all day. And then at the end of the six months, I just, I was like, well, let me see what my returns

look like. So I went to a spreadsheet and I said, all right, well, if I actually buy this house and I Airbnb it or long-term rental, how much will I make at the end of the year, excluding appreciation? It said it was $10,000. And I said, well, shit, man, you're spending 20 hours a week minimum times 50 weeks to make 10,000 bucks. And then I said, well, you know, with App Sumo or Sumo or maybe a new product line with our business, well, I can make that in the day. So why the fuck am I not spending all day on Sumo stuff, which works already? And it's my advantage versus the disadvantage.

And so that's kind of where I've started getting the mindset financially, where I don't want to be distracted. I want to just focus on what I already understand really well and what works for me. So there's one place where I make money. And then there's one thing where it's like, it's not where I'm going to be making money. So I don't want to be distracted with that. So although like when you guys make profits, though, do you just invest it straight back into the business? You're not putting any of that in your pocket in addition to the salary you take? So for the first five years of the company, we spend number one, we try to put as much money as possible into our advertising, hiring, office acquisition, whatever we can do.

I like the Amazon model. Basically, my simple mantra is I want next year to be better than this year. And I just continually think of that. I want next year to be better than this year. So I'd rather spend all my money this year plus no taxes if I spend it all this year. So we buy furniture, we spend ads, or we hire more people, or we pay them more money, or we go on cool trips, whatever it is, so that people are happy. And we invest this year, so next year's bigger.

Only in the past two years have I actually started paying, like, everyone gets a bonus in the company, or profit share. Everyone has profit share. So only in the past two years have I really started making more money. And the way that it's been interesting, Ryan, I actually ran the numbers because I was giving a presentation. If I would have stayed at Intel and just got a corporate and stayed at my corporate job and gotten the normal 5% to 7% raises each year,

I would have, my net worth would have actually been higher than running my own companies except in the last few years. because I think people think once you have a company that's making all this money, like, oh, you're probably making a shit. It's like actually, if you stay corporate and you get a consistent paycheck, which it's not consistent sometimes with running a company, then I would have actually almost made more. But the part where I'm actually now, it's made a lot of money the past few years, it's easier to be like, well, okay, it finally did work out seven years later. What do you think, like, it's a weird question, but like happiness-wise, happiness-wise. wise if you were on that, you're still on that track, Intel, Facebook, whatever it may be. Facebook's been different. I think you would have like $100 million. But how would have

been different if you just sort of stayed as I think you called yourself a cubicle monkey at Intel and net worth wise, you would have been in a similar spot or even better minus the last few years. But I'm thinking like, the reason I say this is because I speak to people who are like 65 years old and they're kind of getting into like how happy they are now because they don't have to do some of the stuff that a cubicle monkey might do as they progress within that company. And that's kind of sad to me. When I hear that, that it shouldn't be happy now. It should have been happy like 25 years. 30. Yeah, you know what I mean? And so I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that because it's not necessarily the money as we can talk about with the Jaguar

too, but what you think it would have been like. Well, being rich is awesome. I'd rather be rich and unhappy than poor and unhappy. And I hate when rich people talk because it's like, well, fuck you, man. I'm not rich. And so it's easy for you to say, well, yeah, once you have money, it's great. You know, it's like I try to understand it from just the people who don't have money. And also people who do have money's perspective.

I knew I didn't want to work for someone else. And or they just fired me. Like, I've applied for jobs, man. And like Google rejected me twice. I didn't know how to do division. Like they had me do division on a board and I literally could do it. And I was like, I'm not going to get the job, huh? He's like, probably no.

I was like, okay, got it. And I don't think everyone wants to run their own company. It's mostly a shitty thing. And I talked to an assistant. I was hiring an assistant. And so I was interviewing someone today. And she asked for a pretty high hourly, 50 bucks an hour, which I was like, good for you for asking for that. It doesn't mean I'm going to pay it.

But I like that you're, you know, you know, good people don't ask for cheap rates. Yeah. That's something I've noticed. If I'm really, if someone's really great and they're accepting a shitty rate, what's wrong? Something's wrong. Yeah.

Because think about yourself, most of us think we're great. That's probably where we're listening to your podcasts. Right. So we wouldn't give ourselves up for cheap. So why would you hire someone thinking that they're going to be cheap? And that's something I've changed my perspective on over the years. Yeah. But staying at those companies,

I don't think is a bad thing, but I was hiring my assistant. And I said, well, why don't you just train and hire other assistants? Because it's a very hard to find great assistance. everyone sucks. And, you know, instead of you having to work at all, you just hire them and they do the work. So people can scale businesses. It's only two ways you scale business, technology or people. And I was telling her, yeah, just go train people. And you are the kind of manager, trainer, coach. And either you can sell courses or you can just, like, I go to you and you give me people and everyone you give me is amazing. And you're like the high end assistant whisperer. And at the end of the day, she didn't want to do that. She's fine. And I don't know if she can think bigger. And I'm not insulting her whatsoever. I'm actually really impressed with her.

But I don't know if she can either think bigger, nor maybe the confidence. Or maybe she's just not interested in having to deal with people. Because there's always problems with running a company. I just knew that being in those companies wasn't going to work for me. But the most surprising thing I would say that people are probably more shocked when I say, I would love to be an employee somewhere or a teammate somewhere. I would actually go work a job right now.

Really? Yeah. Like where do you want to work? Exactly. So, but there's conditions. Okay. And I would 100% go work somewhere. Number one, I want to get paid the same amount I get paid now, which is not, I get my base,

plus we have our profit share at the end of year. So I would want, like, a good amount of money. Number two, I'd want to be able to learn from someone. So I'd need to have someone there that can teach me. Number three, I would want to work on something that I'm interested in. Like, I'm like, this is a really great product that I'm really excited about. Number four would be the flexibility of working from home or like this morning. I had a meeting on a boat.

me and this guy that run a company, we went on his boat, and we just talked about business, which some people are like, well, you're not helping the company. And I said, well, most of the times you don't help the company

being in the office. And if I could have all those things, fuck yeah, I would go work somewhere else. Dude, just let me know the job. It doesn't mean I'm going to look for him because I get those things through sumo. But I think what people kind of neglect is they think you just run a company

and it's just easier. Or you get a bunch of money and like it's easier. And it doesn't. Well, it gets easier in someone ways when you get a bunch of money. But you still might be an unhappy person. It doesn't magically, you don't magically, I remember when I got my first million, I think no one gave me a fucking sticker. There's no stickers. And so overall, I don't think being working for someone is a bad thing.

I think if you're learning, you're around great people, you're working on something that matters, you're getting paid really well. Shit, sometimes I'd rather be the employee or the teammate than having to deal with, you know, lawsuits. We had three this week. Why? I mean, just, dude, that's the thing. over crazy stuff. One of our competitors didn't like that we said that we're cheaper than them. So they think we're defaming them. That's a cease and desist. One lady thinks that we cost her a bunch of money.

I'm like, you don't even make any money. Another one is one of our customers, customers, something happened between them and they came to us. And that's just this, that's in the past two weeks, dude. Wow. Wow. But like I don't want our teammates dealing with that. I want them focusing and being happy and enjoying that.

So there are good. They are getting bad. I'm not trying to be a diatribe or ramble about it. I'm just saying that, like, people should just evaluate where they really want to go in the next three, five years very clearly and think about what type of opportunities help them get there. That's really the short answer. By the way, we blocked a half an hour on the calendar. It's been over an hour. Do you have to go or I have a, what?

Kind of had a thing at three and I told the guy I'd call him a little bit and I got a thing at four. See if he is not going to hate me if I go a little late. Well, the only reason I said that is because what you're talking about is like vision. And that's what it made me think of when you mentioned having a plan that that's, that's further than just this week or this, even this year. And vision's an interesting word. I mean, there's, there's a lot written about that. And you've talked about having that vision.

And it starts sounding almost like at times can be woo-woo with with vision type talk. But I know it's, it seems to be a big deal for you. What is it about having a distinct? clear vision that has helped you and how could it help other people? And think of like right now, I'm doing the podcast editor thing. There's going to be like a music track that starts like right as your answer starts. And it's going to be playing behind this vision type talk.

So go ahead. It's got to be. Let's make it really proof for though. Make it super like, oh yeah, feel the energy. It's going to be a, the title of the track will be like inspiration. So here's no okay again,

inspirational music behind. and vision. Yeah. So in my 20s, I'm 35, in my 20s, I thought anyone who talked about vision or mission was full of shit. And every time they started talking about it, I just zoned out.

Like, oh yeah, I've got a vision of like this. And I'm like, can you just shut up? I'm here working. I'm like busy with shit. I'm trying to make stuff happening. You're just talking about bullshit. But as I've gotten older, and I think what I've realized is in your 20s,

you just work. And then in your 30s, you work smarter. And in your 40s, and older, you're trying to think about retirement and staying a lot. And as I've gotten older, I realize that the most successful people I admire had a destination they were trying to go to. And I always use an analogy because everyone can understand it, is that if you were trying to go again back to Mexico because it's great, Calbas and Lucas, let's say, or Toulomb,

you wouldn't just start driving. You were like, Mexico's south. I'll just fucking go south and hopefully we'll get there. We'll take that raft over, smoke some weed, and finally be at the destination. No, you'd probably look at a damn map. And you say, I want to go to Tulum. How the hell am I going to get there? That's my vision.

So a vision, it's more about how does it you create a guiding principle or a guiding destination for where you want to go? Otherwise, you have no idea where you're going to end up. And so I've just experienced it. I've seen it from the people that I admire. I've experienced it myself. And so now, sometimes I don't think it has to be a crystal clear vision. I think if you say, hey, well, I know I want to go south to Mexico. I'm not sure where in Mexico.

Then I think it's better to start driving than sit on. on your ass and wait around forever to finally figure out where. And there's tradeoffs to that. That's a, I think that the bigger thing, the more important thing is take the time, go for walks with wives or get a wife or get a husband or get a dog or go alone and take time to think about where is that destination you want to end up in some period of time. Because frankly, what I've realized through business and life personally is that it's easy to get what you want when you know what you want.

And that's just what I've realized. I was like, if I say, hey, go make $1,000 in your course and you're like, hey, my goal is to make $1,000 or $10,000 or $100,000 of the course, it's kind of a little bit easier than to say, well, how would I make $100,000? And that's actually, if we talk about leadership, most of the times in leadership, if I say $100,000, you should be like, well, how could I make a million? And then you'll end up at $500,000 and still be ahead of where you thought you would even be. But point being is that, like, have some vision where that course could be. And then planning it on doing the stuff to get it, cake. And so it's just, I've changed my, uh, change my perspective on that over the years. I used to just kind of go and, you know, I'm just doing it. And I think there's some value in that, but I think having a better, a clear destination helps you get there in a more effective way. This is awesome, man. Would you be cool with doing a round two somewhat later?

I'll send you more Taco gift card, Taco Deli gift cards. Dude, I'm so cheap, by the way. Like, you send me a $20 taco deli gift. I kind of felt cheap when I did that. I'm like, it should have been like a thousand dollars worth of tacos and I said 20 bucks. No, man. This is fun. for me. This gives me energy. Like we talk when I, and I want to hear your story before I go,

and I do have to get going. It's because I told at the beginning, I want to fucking hear it. I think what I've realized over my life, or in the past for you, since my father died in 2011, I've just become much more protective of my time. I don't want to do like a podcast interview where I say the same shit. I'd rather go make a YouTube video, everyone can hear that message, if they want to hear it, or I could create software. And with that being the reality is I'm protective of my time. And secondly, is that I look for the things that give me energy. So the people and activities that give me energy, I go do those. And the ones that don't give me energy and not just because I have money, you don't even have to have a lot of money. Just don't do those as

much or figure ways to replace them. And so talking with you, you didn't ask dumbass questions. Like if you were shitty, I'd be like, hey, it's 30 minutes. I've got to go. But it's been a good conversation. So it gives me energy to have that. Well, I appreciate it. And I do seriously want to be respectful, though. Let's like, so let's, uh, if you're cool, let's, uh, I'd love to do it again at some point here in the near future. We can set a date and do it again because I'm guessing through the listeners. This is they're going to notice the, the big difference in this episode from normal and it's

going to be a good thing. So I appreciate it. No, I really do, man. Well, thank you. Yeah. I think people should take compliments better. Thank you very much, Ryan. Who is Ryan Hawk?

So I, uh, are you sure? You want to do this now? Yeah. I'm pushing media. back. I've got at least five minutes. So I am, I just have this inquisitive nature. And so I loved, I played football growing up, played in college. Where did you go to college? Ohio, Ohio University. I live in Ohio. And so, oh, don't tell me you're from Akron, though. No, no, I played at Ohio University. And why, what's in Akron?

LeBron James. Oh, well, I do like to watch the Bronn play. I'm a little Ohio guy. So he is, I just hate how good he is. It's just, he's got an unfair advantage. Well, that's different than, like, hating how he complains to the refs or flops and stuff. So it's interesting. And they're getting ready to play the Warriors. I don't know when we're going to release this, but they're getting ready to play the Warriors now. So are you,

are you a Warriors fan? Yeah. I'm a fair. I'm a Bainwagon fan, though. I've been a Bainwaters. I like both teams. They're both there. I love Kyrie.

I'm just going to say that. Are you a Kyrie fan? If we can hang out with Kyrie, I would fly to Ohio like that in a minute to me. That guy is just so nice and cool and just he's got so much mad skills. Like, I respect, someone said this and I thought was really interesting. When a tall guy. blocks a little guy, it's not interesting.

It's like, well, you're tall. Yeah. But when the little guy can block a tall guy or score on the big guy, it's like, that's impressive. And Kyrie is that, man. Kyrie is damn good. Yeah. Well, getting back, so your question was about me. So I played football in college, played it actually played the arena football league.

You probably never seen it, but it's on TV every once in a while. You're in the arena football league? Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. So I played there for a few years. And then after I got done, I got a job in sales because it was the, like, the closest thing to the competitive environment that I needed. You miss that.

You know, when you play football or whatever is that you're very passionate about and you and somebody tells you're not good enough to do it anymore. And that's what happened. And that's a tough thing. It's like it's, it's a depressing feeling, but you try to find ways to make up for that. So sales is a good profession for me. You continue to progress in that. But then I've just, you know, moved up and then have, but had this, this, this, I don't

know, always reached out to mentors, always talk to people, would take really detailed notes. As you could tell, my head was down. were on video. You're seeing me writing the whole time. But that's what I always do. And so I thought, well, what if I could somehow reach out to like my heroes, but you can't do that if you're just like, hey, dude, can we get on the phone? Noah?

You'd be like, well, you might say yes, but because you're a good dude. But a lot of people would be like, no, what's in it for me? Well, I have a podcast and it could potentially help you sell more books or get your message out there to more people. So that's why then I launched the podcast two and a half years, three, three years ago. And it's created this platform, this cool thing. that I wasn't really certain was going to happen where you, as you said, the guy on the bridge tells you how much he loves your podcast.

Well, like, I get stopped by a guy in the gym the other day saying, I'm getting ready for this big promotion. I binge listened. Literally, that's what he said, binge listened to your podcast to help me prepare. And I'm so much more prepared and ready to get this big job. Dude, like, you know, that's a great feeling. And you get those emails, you get those emails every day from people saying similar things. And they're smart people.

They're not like, these are good quality people who know what they're talking about. listen to podcasts, they're not, they're trying to get better, right? And so it just fueled me, man, to keep this thing going. And I love, if I listed out my best day ever, as you would say, doing a recording a podcast would be a part of that. It would absolutely, would go on and a walk with my wife would too, but recording a podcast would be a part of my best day ever. And so that's, that's when you know, like, man, I love this thing. And I love doing it. And, and it's, it's cool. I get to meet people like you that probably wouldn't have happened, you know, if, if I didn't have this. And so that's, that's the other thing that's cool.

And what is your vision right now of where you want to be going? So I've been asked to speak more on stage, which initially scared me, but I try to lean into that. So I've been doing that more, and I love the kind of the fear I get every time, but then I get up there, and it's like,

you get so much juice from it that I love it, and it also can be another stream of revenue. I did a commencement speech this year for the first time, and it was one of the coolest things ever. You see, like, all these students and their families, they're watching you, And it's only because one of the people on the board of the school is a podcast fan. So they ask you to come give a commencement speech.

So speaking is part of the vision of what I want to do. Probably like some sort of course building as we talked about, although I didn't do a very good job. But that's part of what it's out. And then again, I don't like necessarily talking about it, but writing more, becoming much better at that. So we'll see how that could potentially. I've talked to Ryan Holiday a lot about that. I know you and Ryan have talked a lot about that too or together about that. And you live in Austin.

And so I think those are all part of what's what I'm. going to do but the thing that fuels me the most that I love the most is the is to the feel and to see the impact it has on good people good quality people who take the time to write you an email or pull you aside in the gym or on the bridge and say what you do has helped me and I love that feeling I mean I'm not going to lie like that's a lot of fuel for me to to keep doing it and keep being motivated by it dude good for you thanks man it's kind of the what you're saying is interesting I've been thinking about where it's nice to have a vision but it's also good to have good habits.

So you need to have a plan. So my friend Taylor said to have a good plan, but also build it with that good habits, which is like, hey, I like podcasts every week or I like speaking every week or like whatever, writing. Consistency has been, I think, one of the hallmarks of what I've done

is just consistently shipping every Sunday night at 7 o'clock Eastern for two and a half years. I mean, that's, I think my listeners appreciate that, that they know, like, their Monday morning drive, like they're going to have one to listen to if they want. And it's, it's every Sunday night. night. And it's never missed. And I don't plan to unless something crazy happened. So I think that consistency has been part of my rituals and habits. And it's led to some sustained success, I think.

It only takes a few years of, man. It's just, yeah, we all want the success, but we don't want to put in the work. Yeah. That's why I love hiring athletes because it's like they have to put on a lot of dedication and work to finally get results. Well, like for football, the work starts in December and January. And it's the workouts and the running and throwing up and all the horrible stuff you have to go through. And then June and July, you're running outside and lifting and it's horrible and it's hot. And then eventually you get to Saturday nights on on game day. And the crowd's full and there's a, you know, you're on TV and all that stuff like that. But it's, it's not, it's just like I got a pretty sizable check for one of my speeches. I remember I took my daughter Ella to the bank with me to deposit the check for a specific reason.

She said, you get that much money for one hour speech. I said, no, I got that much money for the three years prior to that one hour speech. And that's what I think is important to know it. There was hundreds and thousands of hours of work that led up to that moment to where they hand you a check for spending an hour with their people. Do keep hustling. I would love to talk. But yeah, now it's at 345. If you come to Texas or if we go get to meet Kyrie, I will fly out there personally, economy class, obviously.

And we'll go hang out with them. I would love to make that happen, dude. but I appreciate it, man. Is there any where you... Thank you for having me as well. Yeah, man. Where do you want me to send people to go find? Summo.com or somewhere else or what?

Check out sumo.com or app, Sumo. And then if this is on podcast world, go check out Noah Kagan Presents. You can go to OKDork.com slash podcast or just search Noah. And it's an Oaken Presents podcast. And I'd appreciate it if anyone that liked what I had to say, wanted to hear more of it, in addition to Ryan. After Ryan, I'll be number two. I'm a happy sloppy second.

I highly recommend. I listen to all of them. They're really good. and it's mainly just because you're real. And there's no facade you can tell. Like if I flew down to Austin, I could see you. I'm guessing you'd be the exact same way. Unfortunately.

For some people, that's unfortunate, but yes. Yeah, but I think, you know, you hear authenticity thrown out all the time, but that's a real thing here with you. So I appreciate it, man. I know we're over by about an hour. So thanks so much, dude. I'll let you know when this one's come out. And let's do it again sometime.

Please, please, man. Cool, man. All right. All right. All right. Have a great day. All right, you too. Bye.

This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to Learningleadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on The Learning Leader Show. Proud to say that this episode of The Learning Leader Show is brought to you by Rhone. H-O-N-E. Rohn.com, premium activeware, engineered with principal, performance, and progress for the modern man. They build clothing around three main tenants, cutting-edge performance, premium comfort and simplistic style. From rapid moisture wicking to four-way stretch, their clothing offers unrivaled durability and flexibility.

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Simply hawk to get 15% off. Now, Roan does not typically do discount codes. So this is a special one. It will expire within a few months. but type in hawk-h-a-w-k at roan.com.