The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 211: Vanessa Van Edwards - How To Be Instantly Irresistible

Episode Date: June 25, 2017

Episode 211: Vanessa Van Edwards - How To Be Instantly Irresistible Subscribe on iTunes  or Stitcher Radio "Vulnerability is sexy.  There is science to prove it." Show Notes: Sustained Excellence = Being a people reader (not a mind reader) Try to listen to others more than anyone else Get to KNOW the person 3 Skills Decoding - Leaders who are able to read others accurately Encoding - Your ability to send accurate signals to others... What can I do to excite others? Self-Regulation The art/science of inspiring others We decide if someone is a winner or a loser... Do they feel pride or shame? If we feel pride, we take up more space, shame = less space Charisma -- How to be instantly irresistible? The most charismatic people High Warmth High Competence Must have both Lucille Ball is a great example. I Love Lucy Do you need high levels of charisma to be an effective leader? You do not need to be extroverted... Or a booming leader Quiet, contemplative types can be phenomenal leaders How to handle a room with a lot of people networking if you're an introvert? Your key in this room is to try and create 1 on 1 conversations. Play to your strengths Don't stand in the center of the room Stand at a high bar table Low light areas Conversation hacks: Sparks - The brain looks for hits, not misses "Anything good happen lately? "Working on anything exciting?" Ask soft yes/no questions... "A really skilled decoder is a better listener than anyone else" "Vulnerability is sexy.  There is science to prove it." "Relatability comes down to ties." -- Saying "Oh, me too" creates a tie with that person. "You want this, I want this..." type speeches The 7 micro-expressions "The most charismatic people have: high warmth and high competence."   Social Media: Follow Noah on Twitter: @vvanedwards Read: Captivate Connect with me on LinkedIn Join our Facebook Group: The Learning Leader Community To Follow Me on Twitter: @RyanHawk12 More Learning: Episode 078: Kat Cole – From Hooters Waitress To President of Cinnabon Episode 071: NateBoyer - Green Beret, Texas Football, The NFL Episode 179: How To Sustain Excellence - The Best Answers From 178 Questions Episode 107: Simon Sinek – Leadership: It Starts With Why The Learning Leader Show is supported by Rhone.  Use the code "Hawk" for 15% off.  Rhone... premium activewear engineered with principle, performance and progress for the modern man.  Rhone builds clothing around 3 main tenants: Cutting-edge Performance, Premium Comfort, and Simplistic Style.

A really, really skilled decoder is listening much deeper than anyone else listens. They are not only listening to the obvious answer, they're also listening to what wasn't answered. They're listening to what didn't come up or what wasn't brought up. They're watching for facial expressions. They're listening to voice tone inflection. They're thinking about how long did that person pause before that answer. And that's going to dictate if you're a really good decoder, what signals you want to encode to them. Hey and welcome to the Learning Leader Show.

I am Ryan Hawk. Thanks so much for being here. What a conversation this was with Vanessa Van Edwards. First reminder, join us for Mindful Monday. Sign up on LearningLeader.com. Simply put in your email and you'll get a dose of mindfulness every Monday morning at 9 o'clock Eastern. I love the response I've received from the people in the group and I'd love to have you in it as well. On to tonight's talk with Vanessa.

Van Edwards. She is a published author and behavioral investigator, professional people watcher, speaking, researching, and cracking the code of interesting human behavior for audiences around the world. Her most recent book is incredible. It's called Captivate the Science of Succeeding With People. I urge you to read it. It's really good. A few of the topics we got into. The characteristics of the most charismatic people and how all of us can develop this. And then how to be instantly irresistible, followed by conversation sparks. Which words generate dopamine in the people you meet? Everything Vanessa talks about is so interesting.

I know you'll love it with Vanessa Van Edwards. All right, Vanessa, I know we're talking briefly before I hit record, but I have to admit something to you. As I was leading up to this one, reading your book, reading your life's work, everything you do, I have to admit that, and I don't say this often, but I was a little bit more nervous for this conversation than most because of your, the way that you are so good at studying and understanding the science behind people. And so I was unbelievably excited, but also fascinated by your work. So welcome to the Learning Leader Show.

Thank you. You have no reason to be nervous. I'm a people reader, not a mind reader. Do not worry. Oh, okay. So what's the difference between a people reader and a mind reader? I think so it's people, you're not the first person to say that to me. In fact, at networking events, sometimes people are a little afraid to talk to me, which may be

a good thing to get that thing. I always say, you know, I'm trying to listen to you better than anyone has listened to you in a long time, like listening to your vocal inflections and the words you're using and the psychological patterns that you're bringing up. Like, I really, really want to know you, which is, I think, about people. reading, but I don't, I can't hear what's going on inside your head. So if you don't want me to know, I won't know. Gotcha. Well, I actually wasn't planning on saying that. Typically how I'd start these conversations is I'm looking at, I like to study leadership, the art and science behind it,

and what is the difference between the good leaders and great leaders? And specifically, if you look at leaders and people that you've been around, you've studied in your lab or outside of it, you've met, when you find the ones who sustain excellence, that they achieve levels of success over an extended period of timing, they're able to sustain it. What are some of the common themes that those people share? Yeah, that's actually, I think, the question that leads my lab. You know, really that's what we're trying to figure out

is what sets apart the good and the great leaders, the people who walk into a room and you think, gosh, I want to know that person versus the people who you've met three times before, but keep forgetting their name, what is the difference? And so it used to be, I used to think, okay, they have really high interpersonal intelligence. They have really good people skills. And that phrase was sort of thrown around. And I wanted to really drill down into what that meant. And as I've worked with many leaders across lots of different industries, I think that we have to split interpersonal intelligence into kind of three different skills. And I think that

this is how you can predict if someone is going to skyrocket in their career. And I think that we have to skyrocket in their career, be an exceptional leader, be memorable or not. The first one is, the first two were actually very nonverbal related, not entirely, but very nonverbal related, where the first one is decoding. So that's leaders who are really able to read accurately the social signals of others. So they walk into a room and they're very quickly able to gauge the tone of the audience. I had a leader tell the other day he's in pharmaceuticals, but he can walk into a waiting room and gauge the pulse of the room. Is it very anxious? Are people excited? And he can guess. He likes to guess what the specialty of the doctor is based on the pulse of the waiting room. That is an incredible ability to decode social signals. The second one is encoding. And this is a little harder.

So they get harder as they go. I see these less and less more rarely. The second one is encoding. So encoding is your ability to send accurate social signals to others. So you show up in a room and you think, I want to get people excited. What do I have to say, do sound like, or look like to infect other people with excitement? And that could be excitement. It could be fear.

It could be respect. Whatever it is, it's the ability to be able to turn that up if you want to. And the last one is what I call self-regulation. So this is with all these social signals, the ones being sent to us, the ones that we're sending out, how do we process them? internally so that we can formulate them into a framework or an action plan. And when we're talking about leadership, you're talking about those three skills. Interesting. So you mentioned something about specifically the second one, encoding about how can I influence slash excite others? And so if I just ask that directly, if you're a leader and you're looking to share your vision that would create

excitement amongst the group of people that you're trying to lead. What are some of the keys to specifically what comes to encoding and working to excite slash motivate slash inspire other people? Yeah. There's a lot of them. But I think the one that the easiest one to think about first is that as humans when we first meet someone, we're trying to decide this is going to sound terrible. And I don't mean it in a terrible way, but I hope we'll get what I mean. We are trying to decide when we first meet someone if someone is a winner or a loser. And what that means is we're trying to decode, does this person feel more pride or does this person feel more shame on a daily, hourly minute by minute basis? And so University of British Columbia researchers found that athletes across races do the same body language, whether they win or lose a race.

And this is incredible because it's actually encoded in us. We genetically seem to pass on this expression of pride and shame. People in pride take up a lot of space. They roll their shoulders back. They tilt their face towards the sky. They usually expand their arms so there's space between their torso and their arms. They might even jump up towards the sky. The more pride we feel, the more space in this world we want to take up.

Whereas shame is a very crippling gesture. It's a very intrusive gesture. It makes us want to take up as little space as possible. So we roll our shoulders in. We typically will block, cross our arms over our chest, or hold something in front of us. We tilt our chin down towards our chest, hang our head lower, and our shoulders kind of creep up towards our ears. Almost like a standing fetal position. I mean, real losing athletes will often crumple towards the ground in an actual fetal position.

And so when we first see someone, we're trying to see if they're encoding any of those signals. And so when you're in the waiting room, waiting for someone to come and get to you or you're sitting outside of a conference, checking your phone, you're accidentally going into very low power or shame body language because you're hunched over your phone, you're blocking, you're taking up very little space. And then even if we instantly pop up and smile and shake someone's hand, that first second actually already happened where we've encoded more signals of shame or defeat. man this is really interesting um we all can picture those people who the the instant they walk in a room they seem to have this aura about them this this charisma and i know charisma is uh can certainly be learned and developed but there are also others who seem to naturally have it what are some ways that we can develop more charisma about ourselves so that when we walk in a room we're the ones who are instantly irresistible, as some would say.

So charisma is a funny beast. We, in my lab, so I run a human behavior research lab, and we, I really was curious about charisma, but I wasn't sure how to study it. And we actually accidentally stumbled upon some very interesting, an interesting trigger with it. We were doing a personality study. And we were asking everyone in the study a bunch of questions. And two of the questions were about, indirectly about charisma.

So the first question we asked was, who is the most? charismatic person you know. And almost always in the study, people could instantly tell us, oh, you know, my dad, my brother, my sister, they knew exactly who it was, my old boss. And the very next question we asked them was, what is charisma? And it was really interesting because not only was the quality of answer not as good, so people had a really hard time answering us directly, but also the time it took for someone to come up with an answer was incredible. They would be like, um, gosh, uh, you know, it's that, it's that person. It's that and they'd inevitably mention the person they originally brought up. And we realize that charisma is this

really interesting trait. And this is why I think we talk about it so much that is very, it's instantly spotted. You know it when you see it, but it's extremely hard to define, which makes it a really hard thing to catch. So I wish I had a really easy answer for you. But I think that the thing that we discover when we brought in some of those very highly charismatic people, we actually asked people, you know, oh, your dad, is he in town, by the way? Would he come into our lab so we could test him? And we actually got a lot of those charismatic people to come into our lab. And we tested them on a variety of different traits. And we found that the most charismatic people are very, very high in two specific traits, which luckily is backed up by a lot of academic research out there, which is that they are very high.

in warmth. So they're seen as very friendly, very likable, very approachable, easy to talk to, but also very high in competence, very powerful, very smart. And the problem is that if you wavered a little bit on one more than the other, your charisma kind of disappeared. In other words, if you were just very warm with not enough equal competence, you were seen as kind of a pushover or sweet and friendly but not dependable. Or if you were seen as a little bit of a little bit too high and the competent side you were seen is very smart, very powerful, but intimidating, hard to talk to, um, not relatable, not a good team player. And so it seems that charisma is this perfect balance of these two traits. When you think of charisma, what's the, who's the first

person that comes to mind? Um, for me, it's Lucille Ball. So I don't know, um, I know it's not a very common role model, but she's always been my role model for as long as I can remember because, if anyone knows her history, you know, obviously she's the star of I Love Lucy, but she was also a maverick in the entertainment industry. She was, first of all, one of the first female leading characters. She also developed, she was the first person to develop a multi-camera technique for sitcoms. She was one of the longest running shows in history. And she was very, very competent. She was an innovator in the entertainment business, but she was also obviously. very warm and very funny and very approachable. I envy her humor. I wish I could capture that aspect of

warmth because it's a very specific aspect of a warmth trait. But yes, she's the one who I think instantly pops into my head. Do you think you need a high level of charisma to be an effective leader? I think that there are different brands of charisma. So I think the biggest mistake that a lot of people skills books make or what we've heard growing up is that there's only one type of of charismatic leader. And it's like the extroverted booming personality. And that we all feel like we have to be that in order to be a leader. And what I've found is that there are many, many different flavors of charisma.

So there is, yes, the booming kind of presidential personality, extrovert. But there's also these leaders that are quiet, contemplative introverts. And they have a very beautiful leadership style. There's the wild party animal kind of wolf of Wall Street kind of a leader. There's the funny, witty, clever, even sarcastic leader. So I think that, yes, all of those leaders are high in warmth and competence. They just show it in a different way. And so I think that if you're listening to this and you're thinking, oh, look, I'm not an extrovert or, you know, I'm not funny or whatever it is, I think that's actually okay.

you're better off working with your strengths as long as they fit in the warmth and competence model. Gotcha. So, Vanessa, we talked about before recording that, I tend to not stick to a script for this show. And this is something that just popped in my mind. I don't think I sent you any notes on this. But when we, I'm thinking about, and I think there's probably a lot of listeners who fall into this camp. And I'm describing myself, but it's just easiest to use my own personality, I guess, in order to do like a live riff here that maybe you can help me.

So picture either a big dinner party with 40, 50 people or even a conference with 150, 250 people. I personally do not look forward to those situations. I look forward to some of the one-on-one conversations I can have with people at the dinner party or at the conference. But the act of entering the room, the act of trying to mingle, I'm not a life of the party guide. don't like to dominate conversation. I like to learn from interesting people and ask them questions, but the actual act of being there with like 100 or 200 people is just not something I enjoy. And I need to get better at it. I'm always looking to strive in all areas. But for the person like that, like me, what's some advice you'd give for them to, when they, when they walk in the room,

I've heard that phrase. I already mentioned it once, but it's instantly irresistible. I think it's an interesting way to to phrase it, but it makes sense. What are some tips or ideas you would give to that person who doesn't quite look forward to the big rooms, but does look forward to one-on-one conversations and learning about interesting people? Yes. Okay, well, first of all, this is an amazing question because I think that faking it until you make it or forcing yourself to go into those kind of events where you're just like, oh, this is terrible. I mean, sometimes you're going to have to, but if you know that you don't like those events, I actually think that we should, you You should own that.

So first, do not feel ashamed or bad that you do not like that. And don't think that that's going to inhibit you in any way. What I would think about, and I'm very similar to you, I like one-on-one environments, I like learning environments, is your key in that room. And I would call this hacking. So if you, when I talk about hacking human behavior and you're looking at this huge room and you're like, oh, my gosh, I do not want to, you know, talk to a group of 10 or, you know, tell a huge story in front of everyone. actually what's better is your hack is trying to create a one-on-one-like environment within a 40-to-50-person room. So this could be context-wise. So for you, it would not serve you well to stand anywhere in the center of the room because that's where those big groups form, right?

Like if you look at the movement or the foot patterns in a room, and we actually did this, we did a giant speed networking experiment and observed people's natural flows throughout a room. I know. I love the diagrams in the book and everything. It's pretty cool. Yeah, I kind of make it like a football field so that like with like where you stand where you don't stand. So if you don't like big groups, if you don't want to talk to more than three people, do not stand anywhere in the main flow of the room. The reason for this is because even if you're talking to one other person, in that main flow, that's where you'll get pods that start to form. People will come up. Oh, hey, so good to see you. Ryan, it's been forever or the person you're speaking with or hey, can I join you? and slowly your group will begin to kind of like an amoeba grow. So you want to avoid that whole middle area.

The best place for you to stand is likely at a high bar table. So one of those high bar tables where you only have one or two other seats. The reason for this is because A, you can join one other. So you kind of keep your two-sum as if you're having a small two-person meal. Or if you go there and set up a little cocktail plate or a glass and there's one opening, you're likely to pull someone into your group in a limited one-to-one or one-to-two-two-person format. So a high bar table is where you're going to do best. And or you might also stand in one of those little alcoves.

So this might be in the kitchen, right? Like right by the drinks. So you can kind of carve out a little alcove there. It might be off to the side. You know, maybe as people exit the bar, maybe there's a little alcove there. Those little alcoves then sort of become your one-time. to one. And that's, and that context is a very helpful way to keep your group small and also make it a little bit quieter. So you can actually have deep conversations. One of the things about

humans, we can't help it is, um, if it's low lighting or if it's very loud, we feel scared or, you know, again, this is uncons, this is not conscious. Our body is on a little bit more high alert. We, we don't like being in low lighting, right? Because we can't see everything. We don't, um, we don't have a good sense of our bearings. And when it's very loud, we feel like, we can't express ourselves. So the other option here is to think about where is the best well, you know, best lit place and somewhere a little bit quieter. I personally love the kitchen for that reason. I can typically get a little bit, it's a little quieter. There's better lighting. I can, you know, like offer someone a drink. I can refill up my drink. So look for also well lit or

quieter places if that's you as well. So we progress to the conversation. And you mentioned that all conversations can be hacked, meaning there are certain words that will generate dopamine in the people that you meet. And I find, again, find this fascinating. So what, how do we do this? What are, what are some hacks when it comes to conversations and the sparks, as you call it? Yeah. So the brain does a really interesting thing. And I've known about this concept, the psychological concept for a long time, but it wasn't until I was researching the book that it connected in a different way. And it's this idea that the brain looks for hits and not misses. So if you ask the brain, like a lot of entrepreneurs will do this thing where they do customer validation,

and they go up to a prospective customer and they ask them a very specific question, like they want to design a new mop. They go up to a customer and they say, do you hate using your mop? Commercials do you hate using your mop? Do you hate sneezing? Do you hate colds? What happens in the brain is the brain immediately. begins to look for examples or evidence or hits of that question.

So your prospective customer thinks in their brain, the last time I used a mop, well, it might have been three years ago, but yeah, I did hate it. And so they say, yes, I do hate using my mop. What they don't ask is, how many days a year are you actually hating your mop, right? Because that would be a different kind of question. So the entrepreneur is like, yes, everyone hates using their mop. I'm going to go spend five years developing a brand new mop. They spend five years doing it.

They come out and they say, hey, you said you hated your mop. Here's a new one. And they go, well, I don't actually use my mop because their brain starts looking for all these ideas of when they use it. It was once in three years, so they don't buy it. The same thing happens when you are talking to someone. So if you say anything good happened today, you're actually triggering their brain to flip into optimism, which I think is what our greatest gift is for another human.

if we can have a conversation where we can flip someone from a cranky mood or a meh mood or a why did I come to this networking event into optimism, which is so hard to do on our own. We have a very hard time doing that on our own. But if someone else can do that for us, we immediately begin to think of what did happen to it that was good or working on anything exciting recently. Immediately, your brain begins to look for all the hits of anything that's excited to do in your life. or have any vacations coming up, your brain begins to think about any vacations that could be coming up,

that did come up, that might come up. In a way, you're priming the brain to think more positively, to think in more excited ways, and then you have way better conversations. You learn much more about them than just, so what do you do from around here, right? Those questions.

And that makes you a lot more memorable as well. Wouldn't you mix in the few examples you used were yes, no questions? Wouldn't you prefer open-ended questions? So something like along the lines of what are you passionate about as opposed to anything good happening? Or what are your thoughts when it comes to open versus closed questions? So actually, my questions are subtle little triggers. They're actually in betweeners. So think about the difference here for an introvert.

So an extrovert is happy to brainstorm with you out loud. What are you passionate about? Hmm. They're happy to brainstorm with you because for them, they're extrovert. They get much more dopamine hits out of that. But for your introverts, they are going to be totally overwhelmed and taken aback by that question. That's where you get into word silences. And that's the worst thing you can do.

So what you actually are better off doing is asking a sort of soft yes or no question that hopefully leads to an example. So asking, have any vacations coming up? They could say, yeah, I do. If they don't keep going, you've just learned a lot about them. That's rough, yeah. You just learned, okay, at least you didn't get an awkward silence, but, okay, they might be a little private. They don't want to talk about it just yet. So maybe it's your turn to say, oh, yeah, I cannot wait for summer break.

I am trying to get over to New Zealand and looking for cheap flights. I don't know if you're much of an international traveler, but that's something I'm looking into. And they can either say, yes, I am an international. professional traveler or no, I'm not. So, and if they're an extrovert, they'll say, yes, I do have a vacation coming up. Actually, I'm going to Hawaii next week. Right. So you're giving them a little bit of an opportunity to take some time to think about their answer without asking them a very, very deep question right away. So that's why those questions tend to work with both extroverts and introverts and the way they answer teaches you a lot about them. And now we're talking about

advanced decoding. So we started off this interview talking about these three different skills. A really, really skilled decoder is listening much deeper than anyone else listens. They are not only listening to the obvious answer. They're also listening to what wasn't answered. They're listening to what didn't come up or what wasn't brought up. They're watching for facial expressions. They're listening to voice tone inflection. They're thinking about how long did that person pause before that answer? And that's going to dictate if you're a really good decoder, what signals you want to encode to them. So if I'm with an introvert and I just asked a question like,

so working on anything exciting recently and there's a little bit longer of a pause. So I know that they really have to sift through looking for hits and they say, yeah, you know, I don't know if this is a big deal or not. So an apology, right? They start off with a qualifier and apology. But I'm working on this kind of silly photography project. I want to encode signals to them, of warmth, confidence, and acceptance.

Because I know that they probably haven't talked about this before. They probably haven't thought about it much before. And with those qualifiers and those words like silly, they're feeling like it could be shot down. I want them to know, no way. Like, I am so excited to hear about this project. I'm all about those personal passion projects. And so I would want to encode those signals to hopefully get to a deeper level of conversation.

So that's kind of the, when you see really, really, really highly charismatic people and you have to break it down into a formula, that is actually what's happening. That's how we hack conversation. What do you think about the importance of relatability and being authentic? I think of Kat Cole is a previous guest. She's very impressive. President of Focus Brands, worked her way up. And she, one of her earlier roles was that she would fly around the world and open new restaurants. In some places, they would not speak English. and so I asked her how was she able to develop trust and to build up these restaurants quickly because her job was to open them, get them rolling, and then leave and go to the next one.

And it might be in another country or they don't speak English. And she said that it was incredibly important for her to build trust quickly. And she did this through being vulnerable, sharing her whole self, maybe being willing to laugh at herself, to ask questions of the people, even if she had to use an interpreter. All of these things. And so I think of when you're, the reason I ask this is because I'm thinking of if you're the new guy or new girl, you're the new leader for a place of work, whatever it may be, how to develop trust, build the culture that you want to build quickly through understanding

the science behind it as you do. Yeah, I think so vulnerability is incredibly important. I have a whole section that I call vulnerability is sexy. I think if you want to be attractive, actually, vulnerability is way better than any physical attribute, and there's actually science to prove that. But what I would add a little bit different, because I think that we kind of are familiar with that concept,

but something that we're not as familiar with is relatability comes down to ties. And this is something that I call thread theory, which is how many ties do we have connecting each other? every single time you either nonverbly or verbally say to someone, oh, me too, whether that's a feeling or a hobby or a person you both know or a mission you both share or a way of working. Every single time you say that or have that feeling come up, you create a tie between you and that person. And it's incredible because very, very good leaders are, they create ties so quickly. They get up to a podium and the entire first five minutes of their speech is a bunch of me too's.

It's a bunch of saying, you want this, I want this. We believe in this. I believe in that too. You feel that way. I believe in it as well. You're vulnerable. I'm vulnerable in this way. So I think that the more me-toes you can create in your conversations and your speeches and your interactions and your interactions with your customers, the more you're going to have that relatability because people literally feel tied to you.

Interesting that you mentioned this. So I gave a commencement speech last week and it was a lot of fun. And the way I started this speech, and I don't remember when I thought to do this, but I said, I vividly remember sitting at my commencement at Ohio University when I was graduating with my undergraduate degree. And one of the things that I have absolutely no idea was who my commencement speaker was or what he or she said at that event. And so my goal is for that not to happen today. And it kind of got a laugh and it started the speech off right. And I don't know if that's a me too or what it was, but it made. me feel better, seemed to make the people in the audience feel a little bit better.

I remember my wife who was in the audience said that was a really good way to open it. What made you do that? And I wasn't really certain of you and why. I wanted to try to relate to them, I guess, and share a true story. But then also prime them to try to remember what I was going to say. It was only going to be about 15 minutes, but I wanted to remember by telling them, I have no idea what the commencement speech or my graduation said. Right.

So I think that that's the perfect example of a very soft me too because what is every graduate thinking about before they hear their keynote is like, is this going to be relevant to me? Right. You're actually in a way you're allaying their fears with a me too. Right. So you're explaining like I know your fear because that was my fear and it actually happened to me. And so don't worry. Like I'm up here with you on that. I'm planning on solving it for you. Perfect. Do you got time for one more question? Sure. Okay, the seven micro expressions. I know. That's a long time. I know. I know. Do you have time? Well, actually, you know, there's a, so, yeah, seven micro expressions. We have a full chapter on it in the book. But I will say that if you need to strengthen your decoding, if that was something that you're like, I'm not so good at spotting emotions. I would say the seven micro expressions is the first and best place to start. Perfect. And maybe next time you come on, we can dive in a little bit deeper

that, but I really, Vanessa, appreciate you. I forgot to even mention the book, though, the book that everyone I highly, highly suggest you read is called Captivate the Science of Succeeding with People. A really cool cover as well, picture of Vanessa with some, it's unique. I've never seen a cover like this before

with kind of sharing the look on your face of what each part means. But that was interesting when you guys sent it to me in the mail, so I appreciate it. Where would you send my listeners to learn more about you online, Vanessa. Yeah, so our lab is Scienceofpeople.com. You can go on there and play in the lab.

You can kind of get a sneak peek of what we do. We have some fun videos. And, yeah, we have some really cool quizzes on there for the micro expressions as well. Great. All right. Well, thank you again for being here. And I definitely want to continue this dialogue as we both progress, Vanessa. Thank you so much for having me.

All right. Thanks. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. head over to learningleadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on the Learning Leader Show.

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