The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 212: Max Joseph - Catfish, Leadership, Making It Count, & Pete Berg

Starting point is 00:00:00 Every time I've just kind of surrendered to my passion for doing what I love doing, something amazing and unexpected comes out of it. And I didn't plan for that. Of course, I wished for it somewhere in the back of my mind, but it wasn't calculated. And I've just kind of let, I've just kind of gone in the direction. Like if if that passion yields some result and that result just shows up on my doorstep, I generally just go with it and see, you know, see where it leads me. I think that if you don't water those plants, if you don't water the plant of your passion, like your soul dies a little bit. Hey, and welcome to the Learning Leader Show.

Starting point is 00:00:48 I am Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. It is Mindful Monday. Go to LearningLeader.com. your email address, receive an email every Monday morning at 9 o'clock Eastern for those in the States discussing the latest topics and trends, articles, videos, TED Talks, Dialogue between Me and Other Learning Leaders. I'd love to have you. Go to learningleader.com. Enter your email address for Mindful Monday. On to tonight's Feature Leader. It's award-winning filmmaker Max

Starting point is 00:01:20 Joseph. He's the on-screen cameraman for MTV's hit show Catfish. He's written directed or produced over 60 short films. Also was part of Casey Nystatt's viral video made for Nike called Make It Count. A few of the topics we got into, the importance of saying yes, even if it seems crazy. And what it means to be a disagreeable giver. And do you need to be a jerk to be successful as a leader? We discussed that in depth. Then the amazing story for how Max earned his job on the TV.

Starting point is 00:01:56 show catfish ladies and gentlemen this one is so good i loved it with max joseph max uh thanks so much for being here man i was telling you before we started recording that i was reviewing your most some of your most recent work on the study of leadership and you've got such a great i guess a history of creating film art putting great stuff out in the world that i think can impact people in a positive way, make them think. So I just had the first say, one, thank you for doing that, and welcome to the Learning Leaders Show. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:02:36 Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here. I'm honored. I love the fact that I'm all of a sudden talking about leadership when really I'm still a new student to the field in many ways. So I probably am going to have a lot more questions for you than you'll have for me. Well, it's funny, you obviously already embody one of the qualities, key qualities that I think I found amongst people who sustain excellence is the fact that this humble curiosity about you. So I appreciate that. So you made this film recently studying leaders.

Starting point is 00:03:14 And basically you asked the question, do you have to be a dick to be a good leader? Do you have to be a bad guy slash girl to be a good leader? And I just love the question because you showed examples of people. who weren't necessarily, I don't know, I guess for lack of a better phrase, people that you'd enjoy being around. So what made you think or want to make a movie about this topic? I mean, I guess as someone who feels like they've, that they're one of the nice guys, whether that's true or not is another thing. I think everyone kind of feels like they're a nice sympathetic person, even if other people don't agree. I think like even arch criminals think that they're good guys.

Starting point is 00:03:59 So take that with a grain of salt. But, you know, whether it's middle school or high school, you learn that like you're not, you're not one of the bullies. You're maybe one of the bullied. And you start to wonder, well, if I were more, if I were meaner, if I were more of a dick, would I be getting the girl? Would I be popular? And then that question kind of snowballs over time. And it starts, you know, whether it's in college or in your job, like if I were more assertive, if I just said what I felt instead of dancing around it, if I cut to the chase and wasn't

Starting point is 00:04:38 afraid of hurting people's feelings, would I be more effective? And all those questions, those kind of nagging, neurotic questions culminated for me when I finally kind of directed my first feature film. And I had been in leadership positions before I'd run a department of a production company. I've certainly directed a lot of projects before. But my crew was relatively small and I was very friendly with everyone I worked with. And so all of a sudden being, you know, directing a feature film where there's like, you know, 60 plus people on set and then, you know, everyone before and after, you know, dealing with managing up, whether, you know, with the executives and the financiers and the producers or managing down with the crew or managing the actors and every other person, people, group that needs to be directed in order to achieve a certain result, you, you know, all of a sudden you're thrown into this kind of, you're, you're,

Starting point is 00:05:45 It's a trial by fire and you're thrown into this situation and it's you sink or swim. And I realized quickly that I had no training, no formal training for this. I mean, I've studied film my whole life. I've always kind of been interested in film. I knew I wanted to be a director. I've taken a lot of classes. I've gone to film school seminars. I didn't go to film school officially, but I've taken my fair share of classes. I've read the books. I've taken courses. I've directed a lot of small short films, commercials, whatever. I've been on set a lot, obviously making catfish. But nothing prepared me for directing a movie, and that was weird. Like, you'd think that after everything I'd studied and consumed on the subject of filmmaking, that

Starting point is 00:06:39 one of those things would talk about kind of management and leadership qualities. And they don't. It's just straight up not part of the curriculum. So all of a sudden, I'm on set and I'm like, man, I wish I had read Sun Tzu Art of War or I wish I had read all those books at the airport and the business section that I've kind of gleefully avoided my entire life because like, I was like, oh, those don't apply to me because I'm a filmmaker. And like, I don't need to know those things. Let other people worry about that. And of course, all of a sudden I was like, shit, I need to, I need to brush up on this stuff. Like my, my resource, my knowledge base for this, things I can refer to, history lessons, et cetera, is very small. And so I really don't, I really

Starting point is 00:07:30 have to figure it out as I go. And so when the movie ended, I came away very fascinated by the subject of leadership and management, things that I had kind of previously never been that interested in. And of course, you know, what's funny is that if you played sports, that's probably the most leadership. That's the most you get in education and leadership, I think, probably as a kid. It's like, you know, who's the captain of the team? And are you leading the team? Are you following the captain's orders? You know, how do you fit into the team, et cetera? But most of the, you know, Most of the time you're not the captain. You're just watching what the captain does.

Starting point is 00:08:11 So, again, I felt very, very not ill-equipped because I could figure it out, but I just didn't feel like I had a really great knowledge base, and I wanted to shore that up and talk to a lot of people who had done it and did have experience or just people who were professionals in the field of leadership, experts on it, writers on it. And I kind of wanted to 360 degree look at the subject of leadership and really better understand it. So now that you've filmed it, you've put it out, it's received. I mean, I think I look at the notes of people who've written about it in the comments. I mean, I think it's received a lot of really high remarks from people who have watched the film.

Starting point is 00:09:01 do you feel or where do you feel in this if it was a scale from zero to 10 just to make it simple where do you feel you were before making the film to now in terms of why from understanding how to lead and if you need to uh if there's certain qualities that you must embody that maybe don't because you mentioned you were kind of the night or are the the nice guy can the nice guy win is the question. Did you learn something to say, oh, no, maybe I need to be more like Pete Berg, or, you know, I'm curious. Well, I think if you watch it, you know, this thing that Adam Grant talks about the disagreeable giver, that seems to be kind of the most reduced version of the moral of the story, which is that a disagreeable giver is someone who is giving and generous and nice,

Starting point is 00:10:00 in their actions in the fact that they give and they listen. But they're disagreeable a little bit on the outside, almost as a protective measure, you know, like almost like a cactus, right? Like, they're prickly on the outside, but inside there's water and other kind of life-sustaining things. And I think that that is a lesson for people who are, who wear their hearts on their sleeve and tend to be more open with people. That I do. think that you need to not be a dick, but you need to kind of turn off your empathy meter a little bit when you're when you're leading an enterprise. And you can't, you can't prioritize every interpersonal interaction that you're having over the greater mission. And that's something that's

Starting point is 00:10:53 very hard, I think, especially for me and I guess people like me, it's like I always, I I hate awkwardness. I don't want anyone to feel like I'm stepping on their toes. I don't want people to feel hurt by anything I say. I have a fear that if I say something that pisses them off or hurts their feelings that they will retaliate in some either aggressive or passive aggressive way. And I, you know, I fear that by pissing people off, they will hurt me back. But I think as you, I think, and again, like, you know, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I don't want to speak like I've had all the experience in the world because I haven't.

Starting point is 00:11:33 But my feeling is that as you do more and more, you really just have to prioritize the vision, the greater vision. And you need to always just keep your eye on that. And sometimes if someone kind of comes into your office and they're really nervous and like your first instinct is to coddle them, that's not necessarily the right thing to do. Maybe you shouldn't coddle them, even though even though you want to, even though that's your. your second nature, the thing that you're learning is that, well, maybe I shouldn't coddle this person. Maybe they need to feel nervous right now. And maybe that will help them get to where they need to get to in order to execute what needs to be done to achieve the greater good. And so there's a real paradigm shift in thinking from kind of interpersonal relationships and making, those like very smooth to kind of keeping your eye on the prize and really getting to that.

Starting point is 00:12:38 And I think that different people have different strengths. And you really have to kind of lean into your strengths to get to reach that greater hole, to reach that vision. And I think some people are born dicks. And you know what? That's fine. That works for them. I mean, steep jobs.

Starting point is 00:12:56 Like there are, I'm sure there were kind of parts of his dickish. nature that really backfired that he learned to curb. But, you know, he definitely, that was his nature. And he worked on it and he honed it and made it work to the best of his ability. And it did work. But not everyone is Steve Jobs. And if you're not born with that kind of aggressive nature, that doesn't mean that you can't succeed. It just means that you're using, that you need to play into a different set of strengths to do it. Adam Grant's one of my favorites. I'm on this podcast. We talked about give and take and in originals.

Starting point is 00:13:34 And he's got another one out with Cheryl Sandberg recently. So I thought he was, well, one, he's just brilliantly smart and just is always thinking of new and innovative, innovative ways, I think, to answer questions. And it was, it was, I remember when he popped up on in the middle of your film, my wife looking like, oh, look who it is, you know? And then, of course, he kind of laid the foundation of, of the answer to the question, which I thought was, was interesting. The other aspect of the film was it was almost like this.

Starting point is 00:14:04 And I don't know if this was part of the, it became a story arc after it got started. But for me, you know, I'm always looking out to find great people to interview as well. And I'll be curious, you know, you're doing the same thing to make this movie, looking out for great leaders, people who have created movies.

Starting point is 00:14:21 And Pete Berg became the guy. I mentioned him earlier, but he became the guy that was like the hard one to get. And sometimes when they're harder to get, like you you just fight for it more or you want it more. Is that what happened or was your eyes where your eyes always set like, I love Pete Berg. I need to interview him because I think he has done incredible work and I want to learn

Starting point is 00:14:43 leadership from him versus, you know, any other number of other great filmmakers or directors. Well, when you're, when you're planning, you know, you dream up of, you'd dream up all the people you'd really like to interview. But ultimately,

Starting point is 00:14:58 look, all these guys are super busy. They're successful. Their schedules are insane. And I only end up interviewing people that I either know by one degree or two degrees. And Pete was someone I didn't know. And so getting, you know, it wasn't like calling up my buddy Pete and asking him to get an interview. And I did work for it harder because I felt like almost everyone I interviewed was telling me that it's okay to not be a dick. And that there's, all you have to do is be yourself, a certain degree,

Starting point is 00:15:37 and find your, you know, find the best version of you that can lead. And while I think that that's like a great message for, you know, a Disney film, I wanted someone who was going to say, no,

Starting point is 00:15:51 like you do actually have to be a dick a lot of the time or some of the time. And you do have to be tough. on people and and there really isn't a way around it. You need to, uh, and I, I was kind of thinking, hoping that Pete might be that person. And he didn't, you know what, he, he wasn't. He didn't say that exactly. He, he was a disagreeable giver. I felt very much. Like, it was tough to get to him. He does have a kind of prickly tough exterior, but he was actually quite giving once, once I, you know, was sitting down with him and he gave me some really great advice and he gave me more time than he definitely needed to and he was very thoughtful and and I you know his paradigm was a good coach

Starting point is 00:16:39 which I thought that that suits him he comes from sports he understands that world and and he sees being a good leader as being a good coach someone who's kind of been around the block a few times has had all the experiences kind of knows what it's going to to be like he's not everyone's best friend. He's there to make sure everyone get, you know, he's there to make sure everyone plays at their best. And keep them in, you know, keep a perspective for them so that if they lose perspective momentarily, he can be the one giving it to them. And so, I mean, he ended up really kind of nailing it on the head in a, in a, what I found was a, was a great way. but the other people I interviewed too, they didn't all say, oh, just be nice and be yourself.

Starting point is 00:17:30 I mean, they wanted to say that. But then once you start digging a little bit, like they all have a very strong backbone. And there's a moment at which if they're not getting what they want, they need to let you know that in no uncertain terms. you know, and I think that dicks are just kind of better at letting you know when they're not getting what they want, whereas, you know, nice guys or people who are, who really hate confrontation, you know, they pussyfoot around it a lot. And I think that's something that that nicer people need to get better at is just kind of like saying, cutting to it, saying what they want, saying, you know, saying what they want, saying what they don't want, and not feeling guilty after. afterwards because that's that's the problem. Well, yeah, I think of, I've been in coaching positions. I've played for great coaches in sports. I played, uh, just, you know, Max, played football in high school, college and a little

Starting point is 00:18:27 bit after college and then went into the profession of selling and, and, in leadership from like a sales organization still do. And what I found is that I personally crave constructive criticism, criticism as long as the person has taken the time to really, you know, study what I do. Like if somebody studied this interview, I want to, I, I, I would love for the constructive criticism to say, hey, you said this, maybe you could have gone this way. Or if you're selling or you're working, whatever you may be doing. And so if you have to realize, I think people, they realize feedback, it's a, it's kind of a

Starting point is 00:19:01 cheesy saying, but it's true. Feedback is a gift. It really is, though. And I think that's the job of a great leader to find the way that you're able to give good, solid, direct, constructive feedback that is vividly clear so that people know. I think that is kind of a disagreeable giver, as Adam would say. If you're just there to say, hey, good job, buddy. That was great.

Starting point is 00:19:23 I mean, nobody really ever gets better. Nobody gets better. But you can say those nice things if that's part of your personality, but you have to get to the moment to where you're saying, great job on these few things. But here are the few things that you could improve on. And it's boom, boom, boom, boom. And you list them out. And I'm big into document them and writing it down and even emailing it to the person, too.

Starting point is 00:19:43 Because I think it helps solidify it both you as a coach and a leader, as well as a person who's receiving that feedback. And I got that feeling from the, from the, from the, from the, from the, from the,

Starting point is 00:19:52 from the, from the, from the, I, I agree that, uh, you know, being,

Starting point is 00:19:58 being, being direct and, and, and just saying it, obviously is, is, is very important. You know,

Starting point is 00:20:04 I think a lot of it has to do with, with, with parenting and, and, and, your relationship with your own parents. Like, if you had a very kind of,

Starting point is 00:20:12 if you had like a disapproving father, you know, and that, either you, you, become the disapproving father yourself or you become the opposite of a disapproving father. You know, my parents are very, we're too supportive in a way. And I feel like they, they just told me I was great all the time, which is nice, but has some real, like, it taught me

Starting point is 00:20:38 in a way to not be honest with other people when giving feedback because I just wanted to kind of snow them and make them feel good about themselves, thinking that, well, if they feel good about themselves and they're just going to do better work and they're going to be better towards me and it's all going to work out that way. And it's not true. People know when you're when you're bullshitting them or you're, you know, blowing smoke up their ass and they and they will appreciate it if you, if you say kind of an honest thing that might hurt a little bit. But, you know, it's how you say it and how you do it, that will distinguish you from being, you know, a jerk. I think that I think that the dick thing, like being a dick is about ego, ultimately.

Starting point is 00:21:24 Are you being, and this was kind of a distinction I found while making the piece was that, like, you're a dick if you're saying, if you're putting people down because you want to put people down, you know, and that comes from needing to elevate yourself and needing to make someone else feel bad in order to make yourself feel good. There are plenty of people we've all worked for who love to tell people that they've done a bad job, even if they later come around to say that they love it because they can't take seeing something good that's been done and saying, oh, that's great off the bat. But then there's the leader who's really keeping their eye on the final product and saying no, that's good or no, that's bad or yes, that's good based on whether or not that

Starting point is 00:22:10 fits into kind of the overall big picture. So I think that if your criticism is coming from that place, from the place of checking in with the bigger picture, then you're on solid ground. Whether what you're saying is nice or mean or is going to hurt the other people's person's feelings doesn't matter if you are actually doing it from the place of checking in with the big picture. If you're doing it from a knee-jerk ego reaction, then you're a dick. So I'm going to shift gears a little bit, Max, because I just, I love your story. And I've like I said, have been a fan of your work for a long time. And that film was the impetus for me to reach out and send you a cold email.

Starting point is 00:22:54 And I appreciate you responding because you feel the, I think you could feel probably some of the, I don't want to say pain, but some of the work it takes to send out cold emails. Because you live that for your movie. so I appreciate that. I think of these people who are fortunate enough to, I guess I should say make it, make a living as a smart creator or a smart creative, somebody who creatively can create material for others to enjoy, create art. And that's what you do. So how did this get started for you? I mean, a lot of people listening, we haven't even talked about catfish yet. And that's what a lot of people who might click on this because of that.

Starting point is 00:23:36 But I mean, that's obviously a huge long-term success. And it's an incredible show that I've watched countless times. But how do you get this started to make a living as a smart, creative person? Wow. Well, one, thank you. Two, I don't even know where to start. I've always wanted to do this.

Starting point is 00:24:04 I, in very early on in like middle school, in early, maybe late middle school, early high school, I realized I loved filmmaking. I loved all the aspects of it, writing, directing, acting, editing. I was a computer nerd, so I liked to spend a lot of time in front of the computer, which went really well with editing, like kind of on Final Cut Pro, etc. and I just, I went out to, I went out to Hollywood after I graduated from college on a very loose promise from a friend who said that he was going to like ask me to write a movie. And it kind of didn't quite work out that way. And so I needed to make money paying, you know, so I could pay my rent. And so what I actually did was I started cutting reels for,

Starting point is 00:24:58 television directors. Now, Hollywood around 2004 was just, everything was kind of moving from onto DVDs. And DVD authoring software and everything was now on the new Mac computers. And I was very proficient in designing DVDs as well as kind of nonlinear digital editing. And everything was kind of switching over to that. So all of a sudden, I had a kind of a skill set that was on the cutting edge of where the industry was. And I showed some of my work on a DVD that I authored, you know, just that was normal to me to like some manager that I had gotten connected to from a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend. And he said to me, he goes, look, you're not the next Spielberg. But I like how you put this DVD together with your work. Can you

Starting point is 00:25:53 do that for one of my clients? And I said, yeah, sure. You mean just put an, like, author a DVD with menus and a montage? Like, yeah, I could do that. And so he fed me, he sent me this first director, who's this guy who directed for 24. Now, television directors are a very interesting breed of directors because no matter how big they are, they're chameleons, you know, they're journeymen. And they go from show to show to show.

Starting point is 00:26:24 and their skill is in that they completely adapt to the show that they're directing. They take on, you know, they study the show and the conventions and the storyline, and they find a way to jump into it without skipping a beat and maintain the show. They're not, you know, it's the opposite of an auteur, let's say, who comes in and says, you know, I have a vision for this and it's going to be this because that's how I see it. And so by nature, television directors, you know, are a little invisible. And so their agents and managers and the people who are trying to kind of get them jobs needed some help sometimes. So I started, I did one reel for this one director and it did, it did really well for him.

Starting point is 00:27:10 And all of a sudden his agent is now calling me and saying, hey, I really like what you did with this guy. Can you can you do a reel for some of my other clients? And I was like, sure. And then before long, this became my business. Managers and agents would send me their directing clients, and I would go through, I would watch all of their episodes of all of their work, which, like, you know, their wives or kids hadn't even done because they do a lot of work. And I would kind of become, like, for momentarily their best friend. They would be alone in a room with me. I'm the person who'd seen all their material.

Starting point is 00:27:51 I was a curious, excited young filmmaker. I was asking them, oh, my God, in this scene, with this actor, how did you do this? And they would tell me stories about what it was like shooting it. And I was crafting their work. And they were great relationships. And I definitely came out of that with some mentors. And a larger understanding also of how the industry worked,

Starting point is 00:28:13 agents, managers, how directors get jobs, the importance of kind of this tool to get these directors interviews, you know, or meetings with the right people. And so I kind of got a good perspective on on how Hollywood worked and what things people were responding to. And at that time, I was working out of a magazine. My office was in a building with a magazine called Good Magazine that was run by a friend of mine who was letting me lease some office space from him. And right around then, YouTube sold to Google for like $4 billion. It was one of those first really big, you know, tech company sales. And everyone was like, holy, you know, like YouTube, wow, the future of video. And it was just,

Starting point is 00:29:13 a kind of simple idea, and I said it to my friend who was running the magazine, I was like, you know, we should take some of the content that you're making for the magazine, because you've done all the work. Like a writer has written it and researched it, and there it is, and it's all there, you know, graphics and everything. Like, we should just take that content and just turn it into a two to three minute video, which is what I had been doing for the last couple years, which is taking these directors material and spinning it into like a two to three minute montage with music and everything. And so I kind of took that same skill set and I started dedicating it towards these.

Starting point is 00:29:52 Good magazine is this progressive, you know, magazine about social and political issues and good people doing good things across the world. And so the idea was let's just take a few of these articles, turn them into videos, put them on YouTube, see what happens. And we did. And the first one ended up going to Sundance as a short film in the festival. And the second one ended up going, it's the most viral to date, the most viral video I'd ever made. It has like 30 million or 35 million views.

Starting point is 00:30:29 It was just kind of about internet pornography and the stats about internet porn. And it had a sexy thumbnail and all the things that kind of. kind of worked on the internet, let's say. And then I moved from doing the director's reels and those montages into doing web videos, which was just a slight evolution from making two to three minute content that was kind of promotion for these directors to two to three minute content that was, you know, infotainment for good magazine. And that's kind of where things started.

Starting point is 00:31:02 I mean, that's how, that was how the trajectory. What about catfish? Um, sorry, I'm having a sip of water. I'm talking too much. I hope you can cut this down. You're good. Jesus. Just go. Catfish was just a, I mean, the movie came out and was this big hit. And in the wake of it, a lot of people were, um, emailing me saying, oh, my God, you know, the same thing happened to me. This catfish phenomenon, I've been so embarrassed to say anything. But then I saw that. this movie and you were so honest about it. I want to tell you my story. And so he started getting so many emails that he and his brother and their filmmaking buddy were like, hey, we should just turn this into a show because each one of these stories is so good. And that's what they did.

Starting point is 00:31:55 And they shopped it around and MTV was really interested and they decided to make a pilot. And Neve actually had had asked some other guy to be in it and to be kind of the camera. a guy that goes with him on on these adventures which is which is the role that his brother was in in the film and that guy had a scheduling conflict with making the pilot and i got a last minute phone call from neve literally the friday it was friday and they were starting to shoot on monday uh and he was like hey this other guy i was going to do this with just like fell out because of a scheduling conflict can you do this and i was like you're going to pay me, I'm going to get paid for this, right?

Starting point is 00:32:41 And he was like, yeah. I was like, yeah, I'll do it then. Like, sure, what, you know, what's the likelihood of a pilot turning into something more was very low. I had learned from being in Hollywood for a while. And so I was like, yeah, I'll have fun, like, doing this pilot that won't go anywhere. You know, cut to five seasons or six seasons and 99 episodes later. You know, here we are. Wow, it's amazing.

Starting point is 00:33:08 You hear those stories. So what about the guy who missed out on that? Have you talked to him? No, you know, he's a filmmaker. I think, and he's doing really cool stuff. Yeah. They're still friends. I don't think he, I don't think he's kicking himself.

Starting point is 00:33:24 Okay. You know, I don't know if he, maybe he didn't really want to be part of it at all. Yeah. To begin with, maybe he's happy. He's not part of it. But he's making movies and doing cool stuff. Yeah. I guess the lesson, though, is when you never really know.

Starting point is 00:33:38 So when I guess if people that you respect or you think could do good work and they ask you to do something, you never know what could happen if you say yes. And that's, I think that story is pretty incredible when you think about it. There's this really great book called The Surrender Experiment. Have you ever heard of that? No. Yeah, a mentor of mine, actually, one of these. great television directors that that really became a mentor to me during that period of my life and beyond, recommended this book to me called The Surrender Experiment, which is basically

Starting point is 00:34:16 about this guy, and I'm forgetting his name right now, but he basically just said yes to everything in a very, he, in his life, he let his life kind of take the path that was offered to him and just kind of surrendered to all the things that came into his path. and it has it led him into like amazing amazing things introducing to amazing people his wife he became like a multi-millionaire like entrepreneur and heads and heads of various companies but all just by kind of surrendering to the things that that came to him and I think that they're I don't know I've kind of oddly found that stuff like when I say yes to things and just kind of go with the weird gifts that life throws in my direction, great unexpected things

Starting point is 00:35:11 tend to happen. And sometimes when I pursue things really doggedly and very willfully, those things don't happen, oddly. Yeah, it's a weird, I don't know if it's just me. I don't know if other people have that experience. But you're more, since you're, for lack of a better word, you're more famous now. So you probably have more things brought to you as opportunities, projects, things to do. So you probably do have to say no sometimes. How do you balance between, you know, the surrender experiment always saying yes, but knowing that if you said yes to literally everything, you just simply wouldn't have time?

Starting point is 00:35:51 Yeah. I mean, there's a total, right. There is a balance. And as you, as I've gotten older, I've definitely started saying no to a lot. lot more, but it's hard to say no. I mean, like, I'm always so flattered when someone wants me to do something. I just, I just can't believe it. I'm like, this is so cool. This person, you know, or this company or whatever, like, they want me to do, you know, something for them. Like, that's, that's just really nice and cool. And I like what, you know, sometimes I like what they're

Starting point is 00:36:22 doing and I want to be a part of it. And but sometimes that's dangerous too. It's like, I think a lot of times, especially people who edit, and I kind of came to filmmaking through editing, it's like editing is like being a doctor. And there are all these like broken projects out there that are like searching for an editor to put them back together and make them healthy. And just like doctors take the Hippocratic oath, like editors in a lot of ways are like they can't let a project die. Like they must, they must find a way to put it together in a way that makes it work. And I've had to get better at not being a hero. Like, you know, not, when I find myself in a position where I can be a hero to a project or a hero to a brand, like that, that really hooks me.

Starting point is 00:37:13 And I'm like, oh, man, like, I need to do this job because I want to be the hero. And that's gotten me into a lot of trouble, I think. and I've gotten better at kind of not getting pulled in by that desire to be the hero. I try to at least. So the surrender experiment, just for people who are going to look on the phones right now, it's by Michael Singer, correct? That's right. Yeah, Mickey Singer, yeah.

Starting point is 00:37:40 Mickey Singer, okay, because I'm going to buy it as soon as we get done. One other time that you said, I have two more questions if you're cool with that. Yeah, yeah. Just because I have a couple things in my mind. one of the times that you said yes was the Casey The other times Well I'm asking yeah one of the times it was that Casey nice that had did the video for Nike called Make It Count and you Basically went with them and traveled the world can you can you share

Starting point is 00:38:06 How that came about was it a similar like hey man let's just pack up and go I want to travel the world and use the Nike budget because I mean I Absolutely love the video if you haven't watched it yet just the max and Casey called make it count they did it actually for Nike, but where you travel the world, I'd love to hear your side of that. So, okay, I can take three big steps back from this and answer it in a way that kind of puts together some of those things we've been talking about. Great. So, you know, I got to L.A. like 13 years ago. And I would spend a lot of time, like, very unhappy in my house, just being, how the hell

Starting point is 00:38:43 am I going to go from cutting these directors' reels to directing a movie? Like, I couldn't see the path. I was very frustrated. I was working on a screenplay. But like I just didn't, it just felt impossible. And every day I would wake up and I would be really, I felt like I was living the life of one of those frustrated people in L.A. that, you know, it's a cliche at this point. It's that everyone out here has a dream and they're pursuing it. But like, you know, they, they get frustrated because they, it's not happening or they can't quite see how it's going to happen. And you kind of can get bitter and angry. and all of those things. And I think at one point, I got, I was really unhappy out here. And I was like, I hated in L.A. And I don't want to be here. I want to go to a place where there's more to life than movies, blah, blah, blah.

Starting point is 00:39:32 And I took a vacation. And at one point during my vacation, I like went backpacking, you know, through Europe by myself. I was like, but I was like an older backpacker at that point. Like it wasn't like cool anymore. I wasn't like the 19 year old backpacker. And I just had this moment of clarity where I was like, you know what? Like I love editing. Like I just love it.

Starting point is 00:39:58 I love sitting down at the computer. I like it. There's a real passion there. And maybe being a director will happen. Maybe it won't happen. Maybe I'll make it. Maybe I won't. But like it is some sort of God-given gift just to love

Starting point is 00:40:15 something so much. And I said, you know what, if I do this thing and if I just focus on enjoying this one thing that I love, then maybe that's enough to kind of sustain me. And maybe that's enough to kind of let go of this like ambition that's driving me insane and making me miserable. And so I kind of came back to LA really just kind of at peace with just enjoying editing. And I bring that up because I had gotten to a similar point right before I was, I was, I did make a count with Casey. I had made, I had kind of quit my job at good to pursue making movies and doing commercials, but I was running into some walls. I had raised a lot of money to make a short film. And then I made that short film totally independently.

Starting point is 00:41:04 It wasn't a job. I kind of put, I sank everything into it, all my money, all my time, all my resources called in all my favors, and it didn't turn out the way I wanted it to, and I was very frustrated and very, my self-esteem was really low, and I found myself kind of really depressed again. Just that's not going to happen, and, you know, what am I doing? Blah, blah, blah. I was really in a really low place, and I had spent so much money on this short film and didn't, and basically was out of cash.

Starting point is 00:41:37 And my friends, Rell and Henry, who made the Catfish movie, had asked me to edit something for them. And I had really not edited for other people in a long time. And I was a director. And I don't, you know, like, I don't really edit for other people. I only do that on my own projects. But I needed the money. And I loved working with them. And I wanted the company of being around good friends and just having fun.

Starting point is 00:42:02 And so I said yes to it. And I edited this film with them called A Brief History. of John Baldessari and just working with them and being an editor and just kind of engaging again with the thing I love, like really awakened something in me. And the piece turned out really well. And I was really happy with it. They were happy with it. We had a blast making it. And Casey, whose friends with them, saw that piece and called me and said, hey, you know, we know each other through Rel and Henry. I'm about to work on a couple little short films for Nike, I've never worked with an editor before in my life. I have always edited everything I've done,

Starting point is 00:42:42 but I really like what you did on that John Bald Sari piece. Would you be down for this? And I kind of, I just said yes. I knew Casey's stuff. I liked his material a lot. I thought that I could bring a lot to the table working with him and that it would be a really fun collaboration, because I already knew how I might tweak things and add to it. And again, I was just following my passion for editing and not asking, how is this going to get me to the next thing? How is this going to get me directing that feature film, you know? And I did two of them. It was, and that was the first time I met Casey and we just worked around the clock at his office. We became friends very quickly. I was just, like, chained to the desk at his office for like two months in New York.

Starting point is 00:43:33 I was getting married to my wife at the time. We had to fly back to L.A. to get married. And then 24 hours later, I had to fly back to New York to finish this video I was doing with Casey. Wow. And then after like two and a half months of working nonstop with Casey, through the course of my wedding and everything, I finally finished these two videos, went back to L.A. and was like, okay, I'm out of the Casey and Istead vortex for a second.

Starting point is 00:44:01 I can catch my breath, enjoy my life for a second and not be working. And that's right when I got the call from him being like, hey, I'm about to do this video. I was going to do it by myself. But I think it would be really fun if we did it together. I'm leaving in two days from New York to go around the world. I don't know where I'm going yet. Help me think of the most amazing places in the world that we can go to. and make this video.

Starting point is 00:44:28 And that's really all he told me. And I was like, I can't say no to this. So I said yes. I went to New York. We sat down, had lunch, planned out a couple things, went to the airport and started making the video. Man, and just the way it's put together so well, I think it's over 25 million views. It's unbelievable.

Starting point is 00:44:48 But just like, you guys, like, was it your idea to have, to be, to have him running at every place and just the background just changes or how did that come together do you guys collaborative work like how did this come together well i think that was one of that was one of the only ideas going into this okay it's really cool i mean it's very yeah we did a number of things like that in every place um and we used some of them and we ended up not using other ones but we kind of repeated the same actions uh in different places and you know he would jump from in one place and land in another. But we literally were just making it up as we went along.

Starting point is 00:45:31 We had very little, we had almost no plan. But we spent most of the time making that traveling. Like we would be on planes or on trains or on buses. And there was just a lot of like we would just talk about stuff. And I shared this song with him. I was like, Casey, I'm going to play this song for you right now. It's like one of my favorite songs. I'm going to use it for the end of my great big,

Starting point is 00:45:55 American feature that I'm going to make one day, you cannot have this song. But I just like, it's a great song and I want to share it with you. And I played it for him. He was like, that needs to be the song in this video. And I was like, no. And then of course, it ended up being the song in the video. So I mean, like, you know, that things just kind of happened like that. And it was fun. It was a totally organic thing. And, you know, one day, there's a scene in the piece where he gets a tattoo that says do more. So we had been working literally 24 hours straight, and we decided we needed to take a break,

Starting point is 00:46:35 and I needed to go home and take a nap for like three hours because we needed to finish it for this deadline. And I went home and I napped for like three hours, got up really groggy, and then, you know, came back to Casey's office in New York. And when I got back, Casey, of course, had not gone and taken a nap, He had instead gone to get a tattoo that said, do more and filmed it.

Starting point is 00:46:59 And he just gave me the footage. He was like, we got to put this in. And I was like, you're insane. But that was just kind of, I mean, that's Casey. And that's always Casey. But like that was the magic of that project. And if there's one thing working a lot with Casey has taught me, it's that like, you know, embrace the adventure. and let the project kind of grow out of the adventure as opposed to kind of just enslaving yourself to this idea of what it has to be.

Starting point is 00:47:35 Not as much planning. Just go and do it. Right. Yeah. I mean, how many hours of footage did you have for that? The 10-day trip, right? Yeah. I mean, we had a lot, but we also, like, charging batteries was really tough.

Starting point is 00:47:51 Yeah. And so, like, we had to be really, we had to be really economical with, like, what we, how much we were filming every day because there were certain cameras that, like, if we just turn them on and film too much, we would lose, we just wouldn't have enough time to charge the battery and shoot more. So it's like, is this worth it? Like, when we shoot this, is this worth it? Oh, okay. So we had to be a little, like, strategic about, yeah. Yeah. I got you.

Starting point is 00:48:18 I love it, man. And I love the message, too, in the quotes and just. the, it's just, I wish, I don't know, I, I, I, I, I like to be someone who said I can learn anything, but man, like, you seem to have this gift that's been cultivated when it comes to how to put together art when it's film and short stories. And I just am really impressed. It's, it's really well done. Um, thanks, Ryan. Yeah, man. One more question. So, a lot of people listening have, you know, a regular job and, and, and, and by no means, I mean, the people listen actually have, a lot of cases, like, in,

Starting point is 00:48:52 impressive jobs. They do quite well. They take care of their families. They're doing well. They're not, they don't dislike it. They in some cases they love it. In other cases, they just like it. But a lot of them too send me notes, Max, that they do have some sort of creativity that maybe has not been unleashed and they want to do more or they want to do something on the side or maybe they even want to do something like you and they and they're not doing anything like that at all right now. And I imagine you get asked for advice a lot, but I'm still going to do it anyway because I have the opportunity and I'd be upset with myself if I didn't. What advice do you give to those people who have some sort of creative itch that they haven't

Starting point is 00:49:28 quite scratched yet that you said, well, maybe you could do this or you could think about this or one way or the other that could help people feel better about, you know, creating something, making an impact on the world, not to get too grandiose, but you know what I mean, that they could actually leave their mark in a way that's more than what they're doing. doing now. Sure. I mean, look, I think everyone has a gift. I mean, I meet a lot of people making catfish. I go to a lot of places. And I'm always like, you know, everyone, every person is an expert in something or is, has a genius for something. And maybe they don't even like that thing that they're a genius in. You know, maybe they do, maybe they don't. I go crazy. I get really unhappy.

Starting point is 00:50:19 and grumpy if I don't do what I love at least like for an hour every day. Like there are a lot of days where I'm, you know, I come home from being, you know, out of town making catfish. And I, there are a lot of meetings and, you know, there's a lot of work. You know, it's just because I, I do love what I do. But there's a lot of like, there's a lot of like stuff that's not fun, the not fun part. And if I don't do the fun part, and if I don't do the fun part, at least like for one hour every day, then I don't have peace. And I don't know. I think, again, like with the editing thing, like something just, every time I've just

Starting point is 00:51:01 kind of surrendered to my passion for doing what I love doing, something amazing and unexpected comes out of it. And I didn't plan for that. I didn't, you know, of course I wished for it somewhere in the back of my mind, but it wasn't calculated. And I've just kind of let, I've just kind of gone in the direction. Like, if, if that passion yields some, some result and that result just shows up on my doorstep, I generally just go with it and see, you know, see where it leads me. I think that if you don't water those plants, if you don't water the plant of your passion, like, your soul dies a little bit. And the more

Starting point is 00:51:43 you water it, the more it'll grow and turn into something and maybe that will, other people will see it. And if you do what you love and you put and you put your love and passion into it, I don't, I don't see how other people won't in some way be moved, inspired, touched by that. You know, I think that that's what, that's what drives us ultimately is having our work recognized in some way and the work that we love to do, not just the work that we slave over. So, yeah. I guess I like, sorry, not to cut you off, but the one part that I really want to pull out for people who are real practical types who say, that sounds great, Max, and I'd love

Starting point is 00:52:30 to do what I love, but, you know, I have three kids and a spouse and car payments and a mortgage and I got to pay the bills. But you said one thing that was really interesting to me, you have some unfun stuff. You got to go to meetings. You got to do stuff like everybody else does. but if you don't at least do that thing that you love for at least an hour a day, you're going to be kind of grumpy or you're upset. And then every time that you surrender to that passion, which is a really cool phrase, every time I surrender to that passion, something amazing happens. And I would challenge people every single day.

Starting point is 00:53:00 I guarantee it, if not every day, almost every day, you will have the ability to block out an hour to do what you love, whether it's creating something, whatever may be, or just reading a book, whatever. And then what comes from that? But if you focus on doing that, I think what could happen is incredible. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's something about that flow state. You know, I know that word and that idea has been thrown out a lot. But I think that there is something to that. You know, some people meditate every day. Some people do yoga.

Starting point is 00:53:31 Everyone has their own thing that they do to get centered and find peace. You know, if I don't do this, if I don't just do. the thing that allows me to be a little free and play and everything. It really gives me peace. There's this great book that was recommended to me called Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert. Have you heard of that? Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Starting point is 00:53:56 Right. I was very inspired after reading that, just to kind of like even be more aggressive about chasing inspiration. or aggressive is the wrong word about surrendering to inspiration, just wherever, wherever and whenever it comes in. And sure, that's a luxury that a lot of people don't have that I don't always have either. But like, just like going to the gym, it's something that like you kind of need to make time for or else it just kind of atrophies. And the more you do it, like the more you've, I don't know, the more I feel alive.

Starting point is 00:54:37 Absolutely, man. I know we went longer than I expected, but that's because I'm fascinated by your work, and I appreciate it, have to commend you. And thank you for putting your work out into the world because it's impacted a lot of people and definitely me. So are there any places or is there a specific place you would send my listeners to learn more or watch more of your work? Yeah, I mean, they can see my stuff on my YouTube channel.

Starting point is 00:55:06 I think if you just search for Max Joseph, but I'm actually using this app called Vero a lot right now, and I'm posting a lot of the books that I've read to make Dix and movies I've been watching and documentaries and music and kind of all the things around the work I've been making. I've kind of been posting behind the scene stuff. I'm doing that all on Vero, which can be download, downloaded at the App Store.

Starting point is 00:55:38 And I find it to be, there's a really smart kind of community on there. There are no trolls. And so people are a lot more open and vulnerable and down to express themselves in a way that I find refreshing. And it's not quite the free-for-all that some other social media platforms have become. I just saw that you don't recommend watching Baywatch, though. I'm on Vera own right now.

Starting point is 00:56:09 Yeah, I mean, I didn't love it. Okay. But, you know, having made a movie, I will say that a lot of time and love goes into making any movie good or bad. And so, you know, it's hard to say, you know, not this is a whole other, this is a topic for another day. Yeah, I know. I just was on, I pulled up the app real quick because I signed, I signed up as I was preparing for our time together and I'm looking through. I'm like, wow, I get to know this app because I signed up solely because of you, so I was just looking through it. Yeah, no, I think it's nice to,

Starting point is 00:56:46 I like talking about this kind of stuff. Yeah. And I don't always find that Instagram or Twitter or Facebook is necessarily the right venue for kind of these more, you know, sophisticated conversations and discussions. But you know what? I was shocked after I released Dix a week ago, and the comments and the feedback I've gotten has been unbelievable. And I'm shocked to see how many people kind of connected with it. A 35-minute short film on YouTube about leadership, I did not expect to do very well. And it's done better than a lot of things I've ever made. So it was encouraging. And I like doing that. I think it spreads like a lot of great work spreads and that's word of mouth.

Starting point is 00:57:37 I mean, you see somebody put a, put a, they tweeted about it. They said, put it on LinkedIn. They posted about it. And you're probably getting to some arenas that maybe you haven't before because like me, like I said, I've been a fan of your work. But this was the impetus for me to reach out because it was solely focused on leadership. And there are other people in this space, which is a kind of crowded space that probably are reaching out now, I would imagine. So Max, hey man, thanks again for being here.

Starting point is 00:58:01 I really appreciate it. And I love to continue this dialogue as we both progress, man. For sure. Great talking to you, Ryan. And take care. All right. Thanks, man. All right.

Starting point is 00:58:13 Bye. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to Learning Leadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again and we'll see you next time on The Learning Leader Show. Proud to say that this episode of The Learning Leader Show is brought to by Roan. R-H-O-N-E, Rone.com, premium activeware engineered with principal performance and progress for the modern man. They build clothing around three main tenants, cutting-edge performance, premium comforts,

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The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 212: Max Joseph - Catfish, Leadership, Making It Count, & Pete Berg

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