The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 229: Henry Cloud - "Be So Good They Can't Ignore You"

Episode Date: October 29, 2017

Episode 229: Henry Cloud - "Be So Good They Can't Ignore You" Subscribe on iTunes  or Stitcher Radio The Learning Leader Show "If you're a leader, you will get what you create or what you allow." Show Notes: Henry constantly striving to do more... Why? "I'm a practitioner, need to continue doing the work" Advice to "normal" people who have a 9-5 job. Henry was willing to start with very little money, but grew into his passion slowly and kept at it. Inflection points -- My football career.  Henry's gradual growth. Critical mass moments -- Henry did leadership coaching and consulting from day 1. "You have to love what you do." "You have to get moving." "My first book Integrity was written based on my teaching for 15 years."  Boundaries -- A simple, yet profound concept - A property line: This is you "In relationships, people put pressure on us" Leaders are "ridiculously in charge"  -- "If you're leading it, you're in charge" "If you're a leader, you will get what you create or what you allow" 3 Keys to Executive Success (Executive Functions Of The Brain): Attend to most important/what's relevant -- Need to name the priority -- Boundary of Attention No multi-tasking. Your brain CANNOT do this -- Inhibit everything else  Working memory - Must be a flow to it Advice for listeners who have a bad boss? Don't fret, we've all been there Create your own culture, do lunch and learns, build what you want within the situation  Vision Statement -- Get so good they will say, "What are they doing?" How do we grow? How can we do that?" Perform, develop leaders in your own corner of the world/buisness "Be So Good They Can't Ignore You" "They work their butt off"

If you're leading it, then you are in charge of it, and that means that whatever's happening, you're either creating it yourself or you're allowing it to happen on your watch. And so if there are cultural problems, there are performance problems, they aren't getting results, whatever that is, what an empowered leader says is, I might not be causing this, but I'm allowing it. And so there are certain boundaries that we know that successful leaders, people who get great results and who build great cultures, and those go together. But people who do that have certain boundaries in their leadership of the way they lead people that actually enable the people to follow them and to get great results. and when they violate those boundaries, then everybody suffers and so do the results.

Hey, and welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Thanks so much for being here. It is Mindful Monday. Go to LearningLeader.com. Enter your email address. Join thousands of other fellow learning leaders from all over the world

to discuss the latest trends and topics in the field of leading and serving others. Learningleader.com would love. love to have you. Now, on to tonight's featured leader. It's a special one. It's Dr. Henry Cloud. He was on previously episode number 50 and now a few years later

we're back again and I loved it. For those you who don't know, Henry is a New York Times bestselling author. His books have sold more than 10 million copies. He also speaks all over the world, has shared the stage with such luminaries as

Condoleezza Rice, Jack Welch, Malala, and so many other impressive people. He is a coach and consultant to CEOs of Fortune 500 companies as well. Now, some of the things we talked about, how to handle an environment or a boss whose ideas do not align with you. This is a common question I get emailed about is, hey, I'm a learner. I'm a leader. I'm trying to grow, but my boss does not align with that. What do I do? And Henry help me with that. And then how he defines boundaries and why they are so important for leaders. And then practical advice that he and famed actor Steve Martin give to the people that they mentor.

Ladies and gentlemen, you will love this one with Dr. Henry Cloud. Henry, so excited to have you back on round two with the learning leader show. Welcome. It's good to be with you, Ryan. we did episode number 50 and here we are a couple years later it's great to catch up and see all the incredible work you've put out i've been in uh some of the audiences of your speeches so it's amazing to see how uh the progression someone who's already achieved such massive levels of excellence just keeps going what what is it do you think that that's in you now that you've achieved these these great

levels but you still strive to do more and more and more oh gosh you know right i think that the The main thing is I'm a practitioner. You know, I love being in the war rooms with CEOs and their executive teams and companies. And I just love, I love getting up every day and going to work. And so, you know, you keep doing that enough and you're bound to learn something, right? You got to, some good has got to happen. So I just, I'm very, very, very much in love with my work. That's great to hear.

I mean, I think there are a lot of people listening who, wish or would love to have that. And they're probably striving to make that happen for themselves, to wake up every day and love the work, to be a practitioner like you're saying. And maybe for whatever reason, they're not able to. They're in a job that's a fine job, but it's not something that they truly love and they're passionate about, like the work that you do. What advice do you give for people that may be in that situation? Well, first of all, Ryan, is I'd want to normalize it for them because, you know, nobody really loves what they're doing and, you know, all that is structured in a way that they love, kind of had that happen all at once. And it is just a very, very,

it's a difficult path. You know, when I was in, my first job was as a psychologist in a leadership consulting firm. And I was a clinician, but I worked with leaders. And through all of that, I was developing, you know, some models of how people change and how they grow. And I, my business uses were flowing. And after several years in practice, I decided I wanted to start a hospital. So I had to go out and raise the money and, you know, find the partners and all of that. And did one hospital unit and then did another or another ended up with a company in about 40 markets in the Western States. and I ran that for a long time.

But the thing about it is when I started it, I had no money and I had no time. And so it's like everybody else, you know, you do it at night and you do it, you know, in between appointments. And, you know, starting things is, it's rare that you find somebody that has the, you know, just the ability to stop what they're doing and start something different. It's something you grow into slowly. And, you know, it's usually sort of like, you know, if I had some ham, we get up some ham and eggs. If I had some eggs.

And you just got to make that work. What was it? Was there a certain moment or an inflection point? Was it a successful book? What may have been that that puts you more on that path to where you're known as Dr. Henry Cloud selling 10 million plus books? Sharing the stage with some of the most famous people in the world, giving advice, helping other people, being a practitioner, coaching. some of the most successful CEOs in the world. Was there a specific moment?

Or maybe there wasn't. Maybe it was just a gradual process. I'm curious, though, because I think a lot of people are on a journey like this. Yeah. I would say that it is gradual. You know, if you go back to like your football career, it started, you know, probably in elementary school, right? And it's like one game after another.

But I think what happens is there are these, it's, it's. sort of like these these critical mass moments that I think, you know, something sort of tips a little bit and it's not that that moment did it. It's everything up to that moment that moment that caused it to kind of tip. For example, you know, I've been doing leadership, consulting, and coaching since day one in my career and spent a lot of time doing that. But I never had published anything, you know, on that side of the world. I'd published a lot. in the self-help world. And so finally in 2005, I decided to publish a business book called Integrity.

And the New York Times got a hold of it. And they called it the best leadership book of the bunch at that time. And that was kind of a tipping point, I think, in some of this, because it got a lot of press. But what I would say about that, and this is what I'd say to everybody else, Ryan, is the content from that course or the content that made up that book was content that I had been teaching in companies for 15 years or more at that point. And so I don't think there's any any shortcut to the next level.

I think you've got to love what you do and you've got to be doing that. I was talking to somebody the other day that, you know, they're looking for some big position and, you know, a certain field has to do with consulting and speaking and all that. And they're kind of waiting to find that position. I said, you know, dude, if you love consulting and speaking, you can't not do it. So go out there and speak to trees. Go find a dog that wants to listen to. You got to get moving.

You got to do something. And I remember my first public seminar. There was one person that showed up. And I gave me eight hours the best I had. Are you serious? There really was one person in the audience and you're just sitting there killing and trying to do your best. Oh, I'm dead serious. I am absolutely did serious.

Advertised it a little bit. Now it's 20-something and, you know, didn't have a lot happening. But you've got to make something happen. Yeah. Wow. I love it. Part of the reason why we're talking is I'm grateful of your team reached out about the fact that you guys, you and Dr. Talens and decided to release an expanded, updated version of boundaries, one to say yes, how to say no, to take control of your life. You sold over 2 million copies of this book and expanded.

It's a great, great piece of literature that's been out for, what, 25 years? I believe, yes. And now the expanded version's out to help people with more of a digital agent and you've touched on new. topics. I'm curious initially, what was it about boundaries? Why are they important? First of all, what are they? How would you define them for the people who have not read it? And why are they so important? Well, it's kind of a simple concept, but it's profound. And it's one that we're all confused about. We have struggles in. And basically, the concept of a boundary is basically a property line, right? And when you think of the boundaries of your home or your apartment, there's a line that basically defines

this is you and next door is somebody else. And so a boundary delineates what's you and what's someone else. Now that's easy to see in the physical world, like a house. Because what it defines is something very important. It defines ownership and it defines control. And so if you rent a home or own a home or an apartment or whatever, you have, you've bought, you've purchased, you own the rights to control that house. Right? You get to say what color you want to paint it. You say what time the door is open and closed, you need to, you're in control of it. And your neighbor is in control of theirs.

Now, what you can't do is step over the fence to start to paint their house purple without their permission. So we, you know, in the physical world, that's pretty easy to see. But in the relationship world, the same thing applies. So, so Ryan, you're a person and I'm a person and we each need to have control of ourselves, not control of each other, but control of ourselves. But if I stepped over that line and said, Ryan, I'm going to take charge of your whole program. I think we're going to start, you know, let's turn this into a cooking show because, you know, In fact, I like golf better to cooking. Why don't we turn this into an episode about how to barbecue on the back of a golf cart?

You would go, no, that's not what I want on my show. And that's why you're successful because you've been in the note of the wrong things. So here's the problem. In relationships, there aren't fences and walls. And you know, you can't cover the peephole on the front door and act like you're not home. I mean, in relationships, people put pressure on us. Sometimes they're irresponsible with their own side of the fence and things start to fall over on our side of the fence. They get in our heads and our hearts and our souls and are causing us pain or need to be bailed out all the time or even being abusive.

And the book struck a nerve because loving and responsible people always have a problem. They attract people into their lives that sometimes are not loving and not so responsible. And so what they try to do in their kindness and not hurt anybody and be patient and forgiving is they put up with a lot of crap that really is not good for them to be doing for themselves or the other person. And what a boundary does is helps you kind of figure out when do I need to set a limit and say this is not okay, get back in control of my life. I think that's what's so important probably why it struck a nerve with many people 25 years ago and then continues to to this day. and then you have some series off it. Boundaries for Leaders is a book that's had a profound impact on my life and just taking that from a leadership perspective.

So when you think about boundaries and then boundaries for leaders and maybe some of the business leaders that are listening to this right now, there's many of them from all over the world, Henry. And if you could give them maybe a few pieces of direct advice to somebody who was in a leadership role of a business, whether they own the business or they're in some sort of management role, whether leading people, what are a few pieces of advice as far as boundaries are concerned that you would give to them?

Yeah, it's a great context to talk about boundaries. You know, mainly I work with CEOs and executive teams about this very issue. They're being able to be something I call, if you go to boundaries for leaders, you look on the cover, there's a phrase, there it says ridiculously in charge. Now, that doesn't mean being a control freak. What that means is that if you lead something, if you lead a team, if you lead a department,

if you're leading a product, if you're leading a P&L, if you're leading a whole organization, if you're leading it, then you are in charge of it, and that means that whatever's happening, you're either creating it yourself or you're allowing it to happen on your watch. And so if there are cultural problems, there are performance problems, that they aren't getting results, whatever that is, what an empowered leader says is, I might not be causing this, but I'm allowing it.

And so there are certain boundaries that we know that successful leaders, people who get great results and who, build great cultures, and those go together. But people who do that have certain boundaries in their leadership of the way they lead people that actually enable the people to follow them and to get great results. And when they violate those boundaries, then everybody suffers and so do the results. So what boundaries for leaders, what that book does is it talks about a handful of very important boundaries that leaders who get great results always follow. So what are some of those pieces of advice you'd give to give to the business leader right now? Well, one of them is, and we see this, you know, talked about in a lot of different ways,

and you hear different buzzwords around it, but I call it the leader's attention. And here's what I mean by that. You know, for a leader to get good results, they've got to lead people in ways that people's brains can actually follow them. And what we know about the performance brain and what we know about how people move anything from, you know, from here to there, which is the classic description of leadership. Here we are today. We want to get there. Whatever there means, a different number, greater markets, greater quality, greater sales, whatever that is. leaders that move groups of people, whether it's a team or a whole company from here to there,

one of the first important boundaries I have to have is attention. What I mean by that, to accomplish results, brains have got to do three things always. They're called the executive functions of the brain, and these are the executive functions of a leader. Number one is you've got to attend to what is relevant to making it happen. If you're driving a car, your brain has got to attend

only a few things. You got your speed and your direction and the traffic and if you're not focused on that, you're going to be in trouble. So attending to what is relevant. And what leaders do a lot of times is they never really clearly name

for the people what the main thing is. And so they speak about a thousand different things as if they're all of equal importance. And if everything's important, nothing is. And you go to some companies, and it is so clear, here is what we're going to attend to. When Steve Jobs went back to Apple,

there were 30-something versions of the Mac. And he went in a room one day and he screamed and said, this is crazy. We're going to make four computers. And what he did was he drew a matrix up on a, whiteboard two by two there were four four corners and across the top he wrote personal or portable and down the or personal or professional and down the side he wrote portable or desktop he said we're going to make four computers because that's that's what matters people use them personally or professionally

and they either want to take them with them or have them on their desk if you go on an apple store today that's what you find now there's different sizes and colors and all that but you find basically he got rid of all the noise and said, this is what we're going to focus our attention on. So that's number one, the boundary of attention. But with that is we're going to focus on this. And number two is we're going to inhibit everything else, which means when you're driving, you don't allow some ice cream at you in the seat next door, right? Or texting. There's no such thing as multitasking. There is not. Any such thing as multitasking. The brain can't do it.

It can switch back and forth, but when you switch back and forth, you've lost it. So leaders are very good at all these great ideas that come, all these great emphases, all these great things that come from the size, the next shiny object. They're very good at inhibiting all of that, saying, great idea, it's not who we are, right? Great person, he or she doesn't fit our culture. You know, great plan, but this year we're staying right. right where we're continuing to hit where we're going. So you've got to attend to what's relevant.

You've got to inhibit everything else. And then the third piece of that attention is something called working memory, which means it's got to stay in front of people all the time. And when leaders do that, incredible things begin to happen. So attending to what is relevant, inhibiting, shutting out all the distractions, and keeping that in front of people at all times, and you'll give better results. Great, great advice.

One of the other, I think, I like to think of the questions that I get and the advice I give, but then I'm fortunate to have this incredible network of people like a world famous Dr. Henry Cloud to answer this question. I'm curious. When you get questions from people who, I mean that, but when you get questions from people who are, this is what I get. Ryan, I am a learning leader. I strive to grow. I love it. However, the situation I'm in at work, the person that I report to or that I work for is almost the opposite of that. And how do I manage that? Because they don't really care about growing and learning. They have a process and they think it's right and it's okay. It's not great. It's not terrible. What type of advice you give to that person who may be listening who doesn't necessarily work for someone who has a growth mindset who's looking to improve and get better, who's just kind of stagnant. and maybe dictatorial at times, micromanaging at times, those types of things.

What advice do you give to them? Well, the first thing I'd say is don't fret. You know, it's common. And, you know, most of us have been there. And basically what somebody's got to do initially, I think, Ryan, is to get rid of the fantasy, that there is somewhere a world in which you're not going to find determinants, around you or above you that have some way of trying to, you know, limit you. Okay.

Even if you become the CEO, you've got a board of directors. And so even if you're in charge, you're going, we're always going to have limits. The question is, how do we define how much those limits can impede our own growth and our own development and our own getting good and take back that freedom and that space and do it within the spheres of influence that we have control over, which a lot of people don't do. You know, for example, they got a boss. It's not in the growth.

This and the other. Well, that doesn't keep you from listening to a thousand podcasts and going to workshops and seminars and reading things, nor would it probably keep you from saying to your team. How about this? Hey, we're going to have a lunch and learn. You know, once a week, we're going to go through this book together. Anybody wants to come can. We're going to bring our food in, and we're going to discuss a chapter each week.

Now, let me give an example of this. There was a company that everybody would know. It's one of the big chains across the United States. One of their regional leaders who had a boss that wasn't into growth or any of that, one of their regional leaders took his people off on a retreat and was at the end of a year. and they said, let's talk about our regional vision. Because the company's not into all this. Let's talk about our regional divisions vision for our growth for the next year.

And you know what their vision statement was? Their vision statement was, we are going to get so good that the chairman of the board is going to fly out here to the West Coast and ask what the heck is going on in the West Coast. Now, he's talking about bosses that weren't into growth, weren't into leadership development. So then they asked the question, okay, if we're going to be that good, how do we need to change on this team? How do we need to perform differently on this team? And they just went after it. Well, they outperformed everybody that next year because they started developing leaders inside their own little corner of the business. And that was a grand vision. I mean, what

chairman of the board is going to fly out to, you know, look at one region. Well, guess what? It happened. They, they were so stellar that it got the attention of the people above them. And so one of two things is going to happen, Ryan, when somebody begins to grow and get good, one of two things is going to happen. The people above them are going to see it and begin to really, really need what they're bringing so bad that that person starts to have influence and power and can change a company or a boss or an organization, or it's not going to change, but they've gotten so good,

there's 10 other companies that want them and will go with what they're going to. So the best thing you can always do is you start where you are and you become as good as you can be. And they'll either need you or somebody else will because you're going to have power not over people. You're going to have power.

by having great competency. That's where your power is. Reminds me of a great story. Somebody had met Steve Martin, the great performer, actor, comedian. And they said, Steve, you know, how do I build my career as an actor or as a comedian? How do I, how do I, how do I, how do I, what type of agent should I get or what should my strategy being? Steve kind of stopped and he paused and he said, you need to be so good, they can't ignore you. And that's what I think of that advice you just share for that person who can create and build out their own little culture within a place that maybe doesn't have the setup that you wish, but you find a way to make it happen.

And either it does one of two things like you said, Henry, which is the chairman or the CEO flies out to see you and says, how are you doing this? And then you teach and you share and hopefully it could possibly impact others. or perhaps the master gets upset at you for outshining them and you, and then though you need to go somewhere else and potentially do it, which you'll probably attract them because you'll be so good that others can't ignore you. Ryan, that is such a great line. How did he put it? You need to be so good they can't ignore you.

Yeah, exactly. That's just it. You know, you can't, you know, light dispels darkness. And a lot of people want darkness to all of a sudden become light for their sake. But you let your light shine so much. And I don't mean in becoming powerful and controlling and building a little kingdom kind of way. I'm talking about becoming so good at something that that light begins to shine. And, you know, it's not.

It's not organizational power. It's effectiveness power. And Steve Martin's exactly right. I'll tell you something else, too. You know, I live in Beverly Hills. And so I'm pretty close to a lot of this entertainment industry stuff. And you get close enough over the years that you start to see something. It is not about talent only.

There are so many talent. to people in this town that are so incredible. But you look at the Steve Martin, you look at the Mark Wahlbergs, you look at the people that have really accomplished incredible things, they work their butts off and they work smart. And their work ethic of what they do, even way back when, there's a young man at, where I play golf, whose servant tables there, and he moved out here because he's an actor.

And I can tell you, when he tells, I said, what do you do? He said, well, I've only been here a couple months. I've done a lot of gigs,

but, you know, every day I go knock on 25 doors, and every day I'm, you know, learning these scripts, and every day, even though he doesn't have a gig,

he's working it. And that's the only way anything happens. You know, Mr. Honda, said, you know, you Americans always ask me, how you become so successful? And he said, you look at the 1% of the movie that you call success, and you forget the 99% of what's called work. And so there's no such thing as an overnight success. That's just a result of a lot of different factors.

Exactly right. It reminds me of you get paid, I'm sure, as you, as you, as, you do, you get paid a large sum of money for a one hour speech. And there was one time I was depositing a check from one of those speeches. It was nice. And I brought my daughter with me and did it kind of the old-fashioned way where we walked into the bank and did it because I wanted her to try to get some, see some, or learn a lesson. And she said, wow, they pay you that much just for one hour. And I said, no, they've paid me that much for the, for the many years of work that went into preparing for that one hour to deliver something that could potentially change the lives of the

people in that audience. And I think that's exactly what you're talking about. Henry, where these guys who are pounding the pavement knocking on doors every single day. Every day. And then all of a sudden, they become known maybe 10 years later and like, wow, he's just, he was nowhere and now he's there. Well, he was working for 10 years, pounding the pavement. And now, now that's where he is. But Henry, I know, I know you got to go. And I really appreciate you coming back. And I'd love to do even a round three at some point here in the future as we both progress, man. Oh, it's going to be fun. I look forward to it. But I would encourage your folks there who are into leadership.

Go to Dr.Cloud.com and check out Leadership University. It's an online path we do together, and they might like that. Leadership University. I will. I will. Dr.Cloud.com. Also the latest edition, boundaries, when to say yes, how to say no, to take control of your life. Updated, expanded.

It already sold 2 million copies, over 2 million copies. It's incredible. life-changing type of a book. So Henry, thanks again, man, for coming on. Look forward to the next time. Okay, Ryan. We'll do it again. All right. Thanks, man. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to Learning Leadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.

on the Learning Leader Show.