The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 233: Gretchen Rubin - How To Be Happy

Starting point is 00:00:00 The people who are the happiest, the healthiest, the most successful, the most productive are the ones who have figured out themselves and set things up in the right way for them. Like, if you're a night person, don't try to get up at 6 a.m. and go for a run. You know, and I think sometimes people feel like, well, they need to fit themselves into a model of what excellent people do. But in fact, if you look at what excellent people do, they make the world reflect what they need and what allows them to support for us. Hey, and welcome to the Learning Leaders Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. I absolutely love doing this.

Starting point is 00:00:41 Hey, get out your phone. You're probably already on it listening to this. Text learners to 4-4-222. That's learners with an S to 4-4-2-2 in order to join thousands of other fellow learning leaders from all over the world discuss the latest trends and topics in the space of leading and serving others. Text learners to 4422. Now, on tonight's featured leader, and it's an incredible one with Gretchen Rubin. She's been interviewed by Oprah, eating dinner with Danny Connman, and walked arm and arm with the Dalai Lama.

Starting point is 00:01:18 Also has written a number of worldwide best-selling books, including The Happiness Project, which has sold millions of copies all over the world. We discussed those books, some of her experiences, as well as. these topics, how you can create your own happiness project. Then we discussed the four personality profiles that reveal how to make your life better and did a live off-the-cuff role play, which was a lot of fun, I think you like. Then we ended the conversation with Gretchen giving specific advice for each of the four personality types. I found it to be quite helpful to help better your life as well as those around you.

Starting point is 00:01:59 Ladies and gentlemen, this one's incredible with Gretchen Rubin. All right, Gretchen, really excited to have you here on The Learning Leader Show. Welcome. I'm so happy to be talking to you today. I have been a big fan of yours. The Happiness Project has had an impact on my life and a lot of people around me. And I know millions of people all over the world, you've positively impacted them too. So it's incredible to see the work that you've produced and put out and how it's impacted many. So thank you, first of all.

Starting point is 00:02:32 I think I want to start it for putting this work out into the world for all of us. Oh, thank you. That's so nice to hear. Yeah. And I thought something else that's really interesting about you, Gretchen. So you've been interviewed by Oprah. You have walked arm in arm with a Dalai Lama. I know spent time eating dinner with Danny Conaman and all these incredible, incredible people. And I'm curious from your perspective, what are some of the common characteristics that these people who sustain excellence all seem to share? Well, you know, I think there's sort of a paradoxical answer to that, which is that there is no right answer. There is no one thing they all do.

Starting point is 00:03:13 There's no one path they all follow because everyone's different. And this is something that I've seen in my study of happiness, of habits, my new personality framework where I divide people into personality types. You know, there's such a, we all have this desire for like, okay, give me the five-point plan, give me the one-pageer that's going to reveal all the secrets, you know. what are the five things that successful people do before breakfast or whatever. And really, the people are the happiest, the healthiest, the most successful, the most productive are the ones who have figured out themselves and set things up in the right way for them. Like, if you're a night person, don't try to get up at 6 a.m. and go for a run. And I think sometimes people feel like, well, they need to fit themselves into a model of what excellent people do. But in fact, if you look at what excellent people do, they make the world reflect what they need and what allows them to thrive.

Starting point is 00:04:10 So would you say that the quality of having a high level of self-awareness? Yes. Yes. That's the very succinct way to put it. Yes, I think the better you know yourself, the better able you are to see how you can do that. And also the better you are at understanding other people and how what works for them might be different from works for you. And it's not that one person's right and one person's wrong. And in all my work, one of the things I really try to do is to shine a spotlight or like even to create a vocabulary for, well, you're one way and I'm another way.

Starting point is 00:04:38 So how do we deal with that? Or how do I think about myself? Sometimes when we just get a word for something, all of a sudden, the world seems so much clearer. But until you know that you're kind of in a camp, you don't realize how you might be different from others. What do you mean get a word for something? Well, like, here's an example. So one thing, you know, I wrote a book better than before about habits. And one of the habits that a lot of people want to change is they want to eat more healthfully.

Starting point is 00:05:05 This is just like one of these big habits that a lot of people struggle with. And I had a tremendous sweet tooth. And I had, so this is something I had struggled with for a long time myself. And then one day, I was reading Samuel Johnson, actually, you know, the 18th century lexicographer and an essayist. And he went to a party and somebody said, oh, will you take a little wine? and reportedly Johnson replied, I can't take a little. Abstidence is as easy to me as temperance would be difficult, meaning I can have none but I can't have a little.

Starting point is 00:05:38 And when I read that, I thought, that's me. I can have no cookies or I can have 11 cookies, but I can't have one cookie. I can't have half a dish of ice cream. I can't have a bar of fine chocolate in my desk and eat one square of fine chocolate every other day and be satisfied with that. I'm an abstainer.

Starting point is 00:05:54 And so in my book, I talked about the strategy of abstaining. For some people, not for everyone, for some people, when they're facing a strong temptation, it's easier to have none. It's harder to have a little. But then there are moderators, and moderators get kind of panicky and rebellious that they're told they can never do something or have something. They want to have it a little bit, or they want to do it sometimes. It might be food, might be something like technology, like my sister had to give up candy crush because it was actually affecting her career and her health. She couldn't play a little candy crush.

Starting point is 00:06:24 She had to give it up altogether. And so when you, and the funny thing is when I introduced this idea, I thought, well, I'm like the only one who's like this. And then I heard overwhelmingly from people who are like, oh my gosh, I'm an abstainer too. And everybody keeps telling me that it's wrong, that I shouldn't be so rigid, that I should ease up on myself. And it's not healthy to follow these strict rules. And just knowing that you're an abstainer and I'm an abstainer and this is like a thing. Now I know, like, why should I have to eat a brownie just to prove that I can be moderate when it would be much easier for me to just be like, I don't need sugar, which is what I do.

Starting point is 00:06:57 You know, I don't eat carbs, really. And that's easy for me. That's easier than having it. So I'd love to kind of go in a path here, Gretchen, if you're cool with it. I mentioned to you at the start that the Happiness Project was something that was, has obviously impacted millions of people all over the world. And then the four tendencies, I took, I've taken the quiz on your website and I want to go over some of my results a little bit later. So if you're cool, can we go in that kind of order? Sure.

Starting point is 00:07:24 Okay. So take me back to the Happiness Project and why you were doing this. Because from what I recall, you were thinking about, you know, what do I want for my life? And I think a lot of people, once they're able to take a step back, that's a natural, obvious question that people, if they haven't asked themselves, they should. And then listen to what the answer is. So take me back to that moment for you when you were asking yourself, what did you want from your own life? No, I think you're absolutely right. And, you know, sort of in the chaos of everyday life, sometimes we don't ask ourselves these big questions.

Starting point is 00:08:00 And I was stuck on a city bus in the pouring rain. And I had one of these rare opportunities for reflection. And I thought, well, what do I want from life anyway? I want to be happy. And I realized as I thought about it that I didn't spend any time thinking about whether I was happy or if I could be happier. So I ran out the next day. I got a giant stack of books from the library, you know, ancient philosophy, contemporary science, memoirs, anything I could think of about happiness and started doing this research. And this is something that happens to me

Starting point is 00:08:29 a lot. Like I'll just get obsessed with something and do a lot of research. But this question, you know, can you make yourself happier? If I were going to try to make myself happier, what would I do? It was so vast and so fascinating that I was like, wow, this should be my next book project. And indeed, I've been writing about it ever since because it is this question where it's very easy not to even think about asking it of yourself. But then, Once you do, I think for most people, there's a lot of low-hanging fruit. There's a lot of stuff that you can do as just part of your ordinary day without spending a lot of time to enter your money that can really make you happier. So what was the process like?

Starting point is 00:09:11 What is the project for the people who have not read it? So what I did is, well, first of all, I did this gigantic amount of research to try to understand, like, well, what were the great minds saying about what are the keys to happiness? You know, is it relationships? Is it energy? Is it, you know, self-knowledge? All these different ways of thinking about happiness and understanding it and, you know, trying to figure out if you could move the needle, the science of it. And so what I decided to do was I decided a year was a good amount of time.

Starting point is 00:09:40 It was long enough that I could have real change, but not so long that it seemed, you know, like it was just drifting off into, you know, infinity. And every month for 12 months, I gave myself a theme. So I picked the themes that for me seemed like the things that were the important things to work on. So for instance, I had a theme about marriage. Well, if you're not married, you're not going to have a thing about marriage. Or, like, I had a thing about reading and books, about my passion for books and reading. Well, somebody else's chapter like that might have been about music or maybe somebody would have a chapter about travel.

Starting point is 00:10:09 Travel isn't that important to me. But for someone else, that might have been one of their months that they did their own happiness project. And then what I did each month is I tried to come up with like three to five concrete manageable resolutions that I could do. things that I could measure to see if I could make myself happier. And the fact was it had a dramatic effect on my happiness. And a lot of the things that I tried that year, I still do now. So let's dive into a few of them. You decided to kick the year off by focusing on boosting your energy.

Starting point is 00:10:45 Yeah. Yeah. You know, I started with energy because I thought, if I have energy, everything else will be easier because I think for me and for a lot of people, it's, I know that I would be happier if I hosted a party or if I planned a trip or if I went for a walk in the park. I know that would make me happier, but when you're exhausted, it just feels like it's too much trouble to do those things. And so I thought, well, if I have energy, that is what's going to allow me to do other things that would be happiness boosting, but that might seem like insurmountable if I'm at my current

Starting point is 00:11:20 state of energy. I'm going to bounce around a little bit if you're okay with that, because I think I mentioned you before we started recording Gretchen about the type of emails I get and the average listener and the fact that you talk about aiming higher. And I think a lot of the people who listen to the show are really striving to improve their lot in life. They're really shooting for high destinations. They don't necessarily have it perfectly mapped out, but they're thinking about it, and they're, they are aiming higher as, as you decided to do in March.

Starting point is 00:11:57 And so what, what's some of the, the advice you would give to those people who have their site set, maybe it's climbing the corporate ladder, or maybe it's leaving their corporate job and starting something on their own that is our, that is currently a side hustle. But how would you advise them to aim higher? One of the things that I tried that was really helpful for me was to remind myself to enjoy the fun of failure. Because I think a lot of times when people are in dishes, they don't like the feeling of failing. And the problem with that is it can make you too conservative in what you're willing to try. And I remember this when I started a blog like a hundred years ago now. You know, I was felt very uneasy. I wasn't tech savvy.

Starting point is 00:12:42 I had never done anything like that before. and I was worried that it wouldn't work. And I was very comforted by the fact that I was like, well, no one will ever see this. So it doesn't matter. Well, of course, a lot of people saw it as it turned out. But I was anxious about doing it because I thought, well, what if it doesn't work? But what I learned is that if I remind myself to enjoy the fun of failure, it just, it kind of reframes the idea of failing as, well, this is just part of the process and this is kind of fun. I'm just going to throw some spaghetti against the wall and we'll see what happens.

Starting point is 00:13:12 And I'll learn from it anyway. And it's funny because when I was writing about this and somebody wrote me back and they said, well, I don't think you should call it failure. I think you should find a different vocabulary and you should describe it in a way so that it's not failure. And at first that sounded like really good advice. And then I thought, no, that's exactly my problem. I don't want to have to pretend like something isn't a failure. I don't want to make it like this forbidden idea or this thing that I can't count in this.

Starting point is 00:13:37 I want to say like it's okay to fail. It's fun to fail because that's part of moving forward. and that you can't keep moving forward and testing yourself if you're not willing to consider the idea that you might fail. Now, do I succeed at enjoying the fun of failure? I can't say that I really do find it that much fun, but even framing it in that way has been helpful to me. Like, well, I started a podcast with my sister, I'm happier. And when I called her, I'm like, this could be a big flop. This could be a big public failure.

Starting point is 00:14:09 Are you willing to do that with me? And she's like, oh, yeah, of course. And unfortunately, it's not a failure. But we went into it thinking, like, well, we'll just give it a shot. You know, and then, you know, we'll see. Yeah, exactly. How could somebody buy happiness? How could you buy some happiness?

Starting point is 00:14:27 Well, it's interesting about money and happiness. Money is like health in that we're more aware of it in the negative and the positive. Like, when you don't have the money you need, you're very aware of its effect on your happiness. When you do have the money you need, it's very easy to take it for granted. So one thing is to be grateful for everything you have, which is, you know, remember that you feel grateful to be able to pay your bills. You feel grateful to have electricity. And another thing, when you buy happiness, money can't buy happiness, but it can buy many things that contribute mightily to happiness. So one thing that brings people down is happy to do boring, repetitive chores.

Starting point is 00:15:06 And so if there's a way that you can throw some money at the problem, that could be good. If you're trying to lead a kind of healthier, more productive life, one of the things that's very striking about habits is that we're much more likely to do something if it's convenient. And so if you have a little money and you're thinking, well, I can join this gym that's right across the street from my office. Or I can save so many and go to one three blocks away. It's not a big deal. It's not far. I'm like, I think you should offer the one that's right across the street. Because probably that little bit of extra convenience is going to pay off your habits in the long run.

Starting point is 00:15:38 And for a happy life, that's a good money investment. in something that's going to pay off and making you, you know, sleep better, feel better, you have a better mood. You know, one thing that they often, happiness experts will often say is that experiences make people happier than possessions.

Starting point is 00:15:55 I think this is a little bit, this isn't as clear as that, because sure, it's like, am I going to be happier if I, like, go on a fun weekend with my best friend or if I buy my third set of black boots? I think, yeah, go on the weekend with your friend. But a lot of times possessions really represent,

Starting point is 00:16:11 or are embodied in possession. So like is a camera an experience or a possession? Is a dog an experience or a possession? Is a dining room table that's going to mean you can have people over for dinner? Is that an experience or a possession? It's not always so easy to tell the difference. Interesting. I never thought of it that way.

Starting point is 00:16:30 But that does make you think a little bit when it comes to whether it's an experience or possession. I like that kind of framing of it. I just saw a great video. You may have watched the Gretchen of Warren Buffett and Bill Gates being interviewed by Charlie Rose. And Warren said, you know, I can buy anything that I want, but I cannot buy time. And so they actually held up his calendar. And what I think some of Warren's financial success has helped him do, or maybe some would say this is what helped him be financially successful,

Starting point is 00:17:04 is they literally picked up his calendar. It's in paper form and like a little book. and there are many days that are completely blank. And Bill Gates was saying, you know, I couldn't believe it when I first saw this because I would have 12, 14 hours booked every single day back to back to back. And I've talked a lot about that on this podcast. I just found that to be quite interesting that when you talk about happiness and doing what you want and how to sustain excellence, Warren's method was to block out large chunks

Starting point is 00:17:37 of free time to think, to ruminate on ideas, to obviously read a ton. I just found that interesting from one of the wealthiest people in the world. Well, also, Bill Gates, did he not mention his think weeks? Because he takes whole weeks when he goes to an undisclosed location. Like, I believe in the Pacific Northwest. It is like alone in a cabin with a refrigerator full of sandwiches and soft drinks. and reads papers that people have specifically written for him to think about. If I remember correctly, I might be getting into details from.

Starting point is 00:18:13 Yeah. Because I remember reading that and thinking like, oh my gosh, I want to think week. Yeah. And so this goes back to the boring and repetitive chores. One thing to do is like look at your schedule and you're like, if there's something that you're doing over and over that's taking a lot of time that doesn't have much value to you, is there a way that you can get out of it, either by delegating it or deciding that it's not worth the time that you're spending on it?

Starting point is 00:18:32 Like the easiest thing to do is just let not do it. Or can you somehow outsource it because you're exactly right. Time is the most precious thing. And part of the problem is that you don't always know what is a waste of time. Like for me with the Happiness Project, like somebody might have said, hey, you're finishing up your biography of John F. Kennedy. Why are you off in the library doing all this research on some like random subject of happiness? You should stay focused on what you're doing right now and everything you can do to make that book of success.

Starting point is 00:19:02 instead of allowing yourself just the fun of exploring a new subject. Well, but clearly that was the smart way, that was the most effective thing that I could be doing. But in that moment, I think the smart money would have been like, no, Russian, you're being self-indulgent. And just like doing what you feel like instead of like keeping your mind focused on the task of hand. So sometimes we don't know.

Starting point is 00:19:25 My sister, who's a TV writer, she's a co-host of the Hacker podcast, She said to me in all seriousness, because she's a TV writer, she said, I just wish I'd watch more television growing up. Wow. Because for her, that would have been a good use of her time. Oh. You don't know always. Yeah. So part of it is like allowing yourself the time to wander and to just do what you're interested in.

Starting point is 00:19:50 And a lot of times, you know, I think things pay off in ways that we can't predict. What's a typical day like for you? Well, I love routine and habits, which is probably why I've written two books that are about that. And so I wish that I could have, I wish I were like a Benedictine monk, but every day I'm holding the same way. But sadly, I cannot pull that off. But like I get up every day at 6 a.m. I walk my dog. I work on email and social media stuff for like an hour, which is what all the smart people tell you not to do. But I found what works for me and I cannot focus on anything until I've dealt with all that.

Starting point is 00:20:25 Then I take my daughter to school. and then I typically I would exercise and I have different things that I do on different days and then my day goes into a mixture of maybe I'm right if I'm working on a book which is my most intellectually challenging work I would try to go to this little library where I work

Starting point is 00:20:47 that's a block in my house for like three hours if I could either in one block or two blocks because I like working I like doing writing in a library if I can but then I'd also have meetings I would have see friends. I would do podcasts. I'd prepare for a podcast with my sister. I'd record.

Starting point is 00:21:03 I'd talk to journalists. I'd prepare for speeches that I'm giving. So every day for me is a little bit different, which, and I wish that it weren't that way, but I've learned that that's just the life I have. It's interesting. It leads me to the, I think, the second part of this conversation I wanted to have on the four tendencies. So we're talking about personality profiles.

Starting point is 00:21:26 and understanding them and you have this great test that people can take. I'd urge everybody to take. Can you share the link for people to go to to take this test? I'll have it on the show notes too, but can you share? You can go to happiercast.com slash quiz. Okay. Or if you can't remember that, you can just go to my website, wretched and ribbon. More than a million people now have taken this quiz, which is amazing to me.

Starting point is 00:21:52 So now we'll get into it. People are probably wondering. Okay, so there are personality types and profiles, and you can learn this, like we said on, taking this test, which I've taken in preparation for us talking because I wanted to understand myself a little bit better after reading the four tendencies. And I love for you to kind of broadly share at a high level and then we can drill down a little bit into some of the stuff that maybe we talk about your personality as well as mine and see and see why we are the way we are or we can at least try. Yeah, yeah, and I have to say most people can tell what they are just from the brief description that I'm going to get. They don't even need to take the Clis. Because Clis is there if you want to take the Clis. So the four tenets is about a very narrow aspect of your personality.

Starting point is 00:22:38 It's very significant, but it's very, very narrow. This tells you how you respond typically to expectations. So we all face two kinds of expectations. The expectations that others put on us, outer expectations, things like work deadline or request from us of our friends. and then we all have inner expectations, the expectations that we place on ourselves. So I want to keep a New Year's resolution. I want to get back into playing guitar regularly. So depending on how you meet outer and inner expectations,

Starting point is 00:23:07 you're either an upholder, a questioner, an obliter, or a rebel. So upholders readily meet outer and inner expectations. They meet the work deadline. They keep the New Year's resolution without much fuss. They want to know what other people expect from them, but their expectations for themselves are just as important. Next questioners. Questioners question all expectations.

Starting point is 00:23:27 They'll do something if they think it makes sense. So they're meeting inner expectations. If it meets their inner standard of being justified, they will meet that expectation. If it fails their standard and they think it doesn't make sense, they will resist. And typically they hate anything arbitrary, inefficient, unjustified. Then there are obligers. Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. And I got my first insight to this when a friend said to me,

Starting point is 00:23:53 I don't understand it. When I was in high school, I was on the track team and I never missed track practice. So why can't I go running now? Well, when she had a team and a coach waiting for her, she had no trouble going. But when she was just trying to go running in her own time, she struggled. Then finally, rebels. Rebels resist all expectations. Outer and inner like, they want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time.

Starting point is 00:24:16 If you ask or tell them to do something, they are very likely to resist. Typically, they don't even want to tell themselves what to do. They wouldn't sign up for a 10 a.m. painting class because they don't know what they're going to want to do on Saturday. And by the way, the fact that somebody is expecting them to show up at 10 a.m. would just annoy them. So these are the four tendencies. All right. Which one are you? So I'm an upholder, which means that I readily meet outer and inner expectations. And one of the one note about the four tendencies is they're not all the same size.

Starting point is 00:24:47 My tendency is a very small tendency. The only rebel is smaller. These are the two little tendencies. Not that many people belong to those tendencies. The biggest tendency for both men and women is obliger. You either are an obliger or you have many obligers in your life. And then the next biggest is questioner. Lots of people are questioners.

Starting point is 00:25:04 So I'm in a poll, so I'm part of an extreme fringe personality type. What are you? Can you guess after talking me now for about 20 minutes? No, I can't guess, but I could ask you a couple questions and try to guess. Okay, let's play that game. Okay. How do you feel about New Year's resolutions?

Starting point is 00:25:22 I don't typically do New Year's resolutions. Why not? I'm of the belief if I want to change something, I'd rather just do it right now. And if you and I were in the back of a coffee shop and there was a big sign that said no cell phone use. And I pulled out my cell phone and started using it. How would you feel about that? I'd feel fine. Why?

Starting point is 00:25:45 Today, I'm not sure that's very realistic. I use my cell phone to take notes often, and so I'll pull it out anywhere in church and school, out of speech, and it's not to text, it's to take notes. So I would probably justify it thinking that maybe I said something interesting and you wanted to take a note. So I would say you're a question. You're correct. There you are. You are correct.

Starting point is 00:26:13 We did not rehearse. that but yeah we did yeah that's a good point questioners you know what you did you hit you hit just you literally said the word justified which is like the core of the questioner and you were you were edging up on arbitrary i think if i had kept you talking about new year's resolutions you would have said the most kind of telling word for questioners is like for them if something's arbitrary they're just like it makes them nuts what do you mean what do you mean Well, it's like, you know, it's just like, well, you know, you say this is due on Friday. Why is it due on Friday?

Starting point is 00:26:52 Yeah. You know, some questioners are more are more comfortable with things that can seem arbitrary, like speed limits. And some questioners, like even something like five garments to a dressing room, they're just like, that is just an arbitrary number. And I don't understand like why in this. There's no crowds here. Why would you have a rule like that? But those are the key things for questioners. questioners are very focused on justification.

Starting point is 00:27:17 Why am I being expected? Why should I? Why should I? Yeah, it's a questioner's question all expectations and we'll meet an expectation only if they believe it's justified. So in effect, they meet only inner expectations. But Gretchen, something interesting about this, I think if I would have taken this test when I was 17 years old as a high school football player with coaches that were very tough

Starting point is 00:27:39 on me but helped me just as much or more than anybody in my life, I didn't, question anything. I did. That's very questioner. That's exactly a questioner. Because even in your, even in what you said, you were saying, these are trusted authorities. They are helping me. I will do what they say. That is a, that is one of the,

Starting point is 00:27:58 that's one of the tells of questioners. They will do it if they trust your authority and they believe and they, so like, it would be very typical for a high school student to be like, well, I'm going to do what my coach says. But the Spanish teacher that's giving a dumb book report is, oh man, I'm not going to waste

Starting point is 00:28:14 my time on that because their question is why should I listen to you but you're saying you the coaches have that authority so you are you are making their expectation and expectation because you're accepting their authority that's so that I'm glad we this came up because that's a key point today is why I question a lot I mean I ask questions for a living too which is funny doing this but I mean it of is that I I think once we or or people questioners, I think deem that somebody is, is worth listening to. I'm like all in. You know, when I see the work of, well, I see the work of Gretchen Rubin, but I see the work of someone, let's say, Adam Grant. I rarely, rarely, rarely don't see the work that Adam puts out. And I'm,

Starting point is 00:29:00 I usually think, oh, wow, that is compelling, that is correct. And I want to live that way. You know, I don't quite, I hardly question anything he puts out. I mean, he is, he's not perfect. Nobody is. But you know what I mean? I think when you find those. people, you, you, you join that tribe and you're ready to go, you know? But see, and I think you put your finger on something that has enormous significance in the world, which is, let's say I'm a doctor and I'm trying to get you to take your blood pressure medication, or I'm a surgeon and I'm trying to get you to do your rehab exercises after I repaired your knee. If I have not won your trust in my judgment, if you don't believe

Starting point is 00:29:36 that I have the authority to direct you, you might reject my advice. Yeah. You might come up with your own, you might do your own internet search and decide you're going to do something completely contrary to what I think you should do because you haven't bought into me as somebody that you want to listen to. Once that person like Adam Grant has one, like has convinced you of their wisdom and that you believe that they are a good guide in the kind of thinking that you respect, then you're going to follow. But if I don't take the time to give you the robust justifications that you need to feel satisfied with my authority, then you might not get with

Starting point is 00:30:11 the program. And so, you know, and of course, this is a thing in medicine, which is like, there's so little time to answer questions and stuff. And it's like, well, if you're dealing with a questioner, you've got to find a way to bring them into a conviction that you're worth listening to. Because otherwise, they just might disregard it. Yeah. So upholders respond readily to both outer expectations and inner expectations. So how does an upholder differ from a questioner? So the thing about a questioner. So the thing about a questioner is they will very easily reject expectations that they think that they're ridiculous. Like, use the cell phone. You're like, that rule doesn't make any sense, so I don't feel bound by it.

Starting point is 00:30:51 I would feel intensely uncomfortable if you were using a cell phone where there was a sign that said no cell phone use, because I feel the weight of outer expectation. So, upholders tend to be much more, you know, aware of like, well, what are the rules? What are we supposed to do? And it's funny how this plays out because I'm an upholder married to a questioner, and it's really helpful to me because sometimes in a certain situation, I'll be like, do I have to do this? Because I know he'll be like, well, why should you? You know, like, he, like, I feel like I'm supposed to do it. And that to me, it's like it's hard to resist. But for him, that's not hard to resist. Yeah, I think I draw on that, that questioning from him. Yeah, I was going to say, I think the, the nature of me, I think it's just always asking why. I have that kind of like that inquisitive approach towards why do we

Starting point is 00:31:41 do it this way. And maybe that's from from growing up in the corporate world and seeing some things done that literally make absolutely no sense. And so it's it, it almost creates more of a questioner out of you because you've unfortunately witnessed some things that, they're not criminal or anything, but they just, they're just stupid or they don't make any sense. And so you're, you're, you, you, it almost makes you question more things because you've, you've, you've, you've, you've experienced, one through some of those experiences. Well, it's interesting that you said that because, one thing that I hear from a lot of questioners is like your workplace really matters because some

Starting point is 00:32:16 workplaces really value and reward the questioner drive to efficiency and justification and improving processes and having people explain like why are we using the software why are we hiring this consultant why are we doing this like why did this guy get hired or whatever some really value that some workplaces don't they want you to like get with the program be a team player this is what corporate says. We don't have a lot of time to explain. And many questions have said, I've worked with thin skin bosses

Starting point is 00:32:45 who felt like I was undermining their authority when I was just asking what I thought were very valuable questions for everyone. I feel like the way that I served the team is by keeping us focused on the bottom line instead of just blindly doing what somebody recommends that we do. I feel like that's my value. In some places, that's good.

Starting point is 00:33:03 In some places it's not good. And so if you're going into a workplace, You kind of want to be aware. Is this a place where they're going to respect this aspect? Or is this a place where they're not? So I know there's no right answer to, you know, what's the best one or what should you be? But let me pose a question a little bit differently. If you got hired to be the CEO of a Fortune 500 company and you were, and one of your

Starting point is 00:33:30 first missions was to understand the current culture and how you could obviously make it a world-class culture for lack of a better term. When you're thinking about upholders, obholders, questioners, and rebels, do you think the right answer is kind of a mix, an equal mix, or what would your ideal setup be you, Gretchen, Rubin, the CEO, Fortune 500 company of your hiring profile and how you like to build the culture that could lead to sustained excellence? Well, you know, it's really impossible to say because, like I say, the four tenets. This is one very narrow aspect of your personality. It's only how you respond

Starting point is 00:34:10 to expectations. And when you think about what makes somebody a good part of the team, so many factors come to play. So like you're a questioner, but we can learn at 50 questioners and depending on how ambitious they were, how intellectual they were, how curious feelings they were, what they were interested in, how extroverted or introverted they were, how neurotic they were, how controlling they were, all these things would mix up. And so it's not, you can't just say, like, well, because even if you have like a whole company that was nothing but obligers, it's like they would be so different from each other in other ways. But you can say that these, the tendencies are complementary in that every tendency

Starting point is 00:34:49 brings something in that the other tendencies don't have as a kind of core strength of their tendency. So, you know, I gave a speech one time and afterwards somebody came up and said, well, I only want to hire obligers. Can you tell me how to screen for that in hiring? You know, but I'm like, I don't think that's what you really want. Though it might be useful for a certain role to take it into account because you can't expect to see certain patterns of behavior in people more or less,

Starting point is 00:35:21 depending on their, I mean, it was interesting. I was talking to somebody who's the CEO of a Fortune 500 company, and he said to me, well, and he was in a folder and I'm in a folder. And he's like, well, I think you'd have to be an upholder to be the CEO of a big public company because there's so many outer expectations, and yet you have to have the inner expectations to balance that and that you have to have that inner set of expectations too. But I was like, but you're an upholder.

Starting point is 00:35:44 So I wonder if a questioner and ledger rebel would give me a different answer because you're saying, well, I do it and I like being in a holder. I'm like, well, I see how that works for you, but maybe somebody else could do it in a different way. I love kind of how we roleplayed this, Gretchen. I wasn't expecting that. So I appreciate you. I appreciate you, I appreciate you,

Starting point is 00:36:02 playing along and actually kind of working out here. So it's pretty cool. But I have one more question, though, before we go, because I gave you kind of the profile of the listener. And obviously, nothing's average about that. But one of the questions that I get that is it's not, I don't expect this to be easy to answer, but I can't help. I'm curious.

Starting point is 00:36:23 If there's somebody who's 33 years old and they're working at a Fortune 500 company, like I mentioned before, and they're ambitious, but they're not, you, you're not, you just selfishly ambitious, but they're ambitious to help their company or help people grow, do a good job, add value. And they want to progress in their career. And that's a very broad statement, but on purpose. And they came to you and said, Gretchen, what's some piece of advice or what is the, the top piece of advice you could share with me to help me as I look to progress in both my life,

Starting point is 00:36:56 to be happy and to have a fulfilling career? What would you say? Well, there's so many answers to that. But just to use the poor tendencies, like if I knew the person's tendency and they were like, how do I use, how do I harness my tendency to help me with that? But then a poller, I would say it's get clarity, really understand what are you expecting of yourself? Because once you have that clarity, that inner and the, inner and outer expectations will both drive you forward. Even if you don't have anybody else looking over your shoulder, if you're a questioner, I would say you really need to understand why.

Starting point is 00:37:26 Why are you doing this? Why are you doing this? Why are you doing this? Why do you think that it would be worth your time? go to this networking event or to take this supplemental training. Why are you doing it? Because once you're very clear on why you would be doing it, what you want and why you want it, that's when your actions will follow. For obligers, if they're trying to do things, you know, trying to do kind of outside things in order to further their career, which is often what it takes.

Starting point is 00:37:49 If you're really ambitious, you have to go beyond what's required and do the extra things. Get out of accountability. Don't say like, oh, sure, I'm going to take that online training course when I get around to it. Like, say to a friend, let's both commit that we're going to do this. by the end of the month and let's check on each other or whatever find outer accountability for inner expectations that is what obligeers need they don't need the separities they don't need to learn to

Starting point is 00:38:11 take time for themselves they don't need to you know learn be better at saying no once they have outer accountability they can follow through so if you see these things that need to be done if you're going to move forward figure maybe you even want to start a group of people at work where like you know we're like the ones that we're going to hold each other accountable for whatever it would take for us to get to move forward and then finally rebels you know for rebels it's all about choices and freedom. They can do anything they want to do, and they can do anything that is going to project their identity. So for a rebel, it would be about saying, like, I'm a, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a person who has lots of good ideas. I want to be a powerful force at this company. I want to

Starting point is 00:38:46 have my voice heard. I want to influence the direction of change. I want to show people my chops at, like, you know, what I can do. And in order to do that, I'm going to have to show up on time to these meetings. I'm going to have to go above and beyond. I'm going to have to do things that maybe are going to be difficult for me as a rebel, but I'm going to want to do them because that's my identity as being this kind of person, this person who wants to be a leader. And also, I can do anything that I want,

Starting point is 00:39:12 and I want to succeed. And so all these things are just going to help me get what I want. That's awesome. So good. Thank you, Gretchen. Where would you send my listeners to learn more online? Online go gretchenrubin.com, and there's tons of resources there about happiness and habits

Starting point is 00:39:29 and the four tendencies, more than anybody would ever want to see. Or do you want to hear me talk about these things with my sister? We have a podcast called Happier with Gretchen Rubin, where we talk about how to be happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative. And because we're sisters, we don't let each other get away with much.

Starting point is 00:39:46 Perfect. Well, thanks again, Gretchen. I appreciate you coming on. I've been a fan for years. And I absolutely want to continue this dialogue as we both progress. Oh, terrific. I so appreciate you having me on. It was so fun.

Starting point is 00:40:00 And I loved the guessing game. That was fun. Me too. I wasn't expecting it, but I thought, ah, it kind of worked. And then you obviously, you're the pro. You got it right. So I'm glad it worked out. But no, thanks again.

Starting point is 00:40:13 I really appreciate it, Gretchen. Thank you. All right. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but we have plenty more to keep you locked in until next time. Head over to Learning Leadershow.com for more information and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete or anyone else that inspires you.

Starting point is 00:40:32 You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at Ryan Hawk 12. Thanks again and we'll see you next time on The Learning Leader Show.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 233: Gretchen Rubin - How To Be Happy

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