The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 241: Austin Kleon - How To Steal Like An Artist

Starting point is 00:00:00 Being a leader, you have to be kind of curious. But I also think that, you know, leaders are always looking for examples of good leaders. And one of the best ways to get in touch with those people who made a great impact on the world is to read books. Because it's so, you can't just call them up. You know, you can't just call up Winston Churchill or whoever, I don't know, you. and ask him what he did, but you know, you can go back and read about it. This episode is brought to you by Gusto. Gusto is making payroll benefits and HR easy for small businesses.

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Starting point is 00:01:12 You can focus on your business, not payroll and paperwork. And to help support the Learning Leader Show, Gusto is offering our listeners an exclusive limited time deal. Sign up today and you'll get three months free once you run your first first payroll. Just go to gusto.com slash leader. That's g-us-t-o.com slash leader. Welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. It is Mindful Monday. Text learners to 44222 in order to join thousands of other fellow learning leaders from all over the world to discuss the latest trends and topics in the space of leading and serving others, text learners to 4422.2.

Starting point is 00:02:01 Now, on tonight's featured leaders with the great Austin Cleon, New York Times, bestselling author of multiple books, two that I love, steal like an artist and show your work. New York Magazine called his work brilliant. The Atlantic called him positively one of the most interesting people on the internet. He also speaks about creativity for organizations such as Pixar, Google, TEDx, and The Economists, a few of the topics we got into. Austin walks us through his creative process, routines, habits, and how to better notice things. And then why everyone should have hobbies and why it's great to read books from dead authors.

Starting point is 00:02:44 Then near the end, we talked about how to build a community with people you look up to. Austin's a fascinating guy, really thoughtful. I think you'll get a lot out of this one. Ladies and gentlemen, it's Austin, Cleon. Austin, thank you so much for being here on The Learning Leaders Show. Welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Of course.

Starting point is 00:03:10 Big fan of your work. It's helped me a lot, man. I know a lot of others as well. I'm curious, from your perspective, so you notice things really well. And I know you study others. And just in our very brief pre-recording chat, you came up with an idea for a post. So like you're always thinking and I love that about you and your process. But I'm curious when you look around and you and think about the people you've met and spoken to,

Starting point is 00:03:38 specifically the ones who have sustained excellence over an extended period of time, what are some of the common themes or commonalities that those people all seem to possess? They all work harder than I do. I mean, I really, there's very few people that I meet where there's, you know, we all wrestle with jealousy and creative jealousy and industry jealousy. But it's very rare to see someone who has that word that you used, a sustainable career, you know, that kind of sustained success. It's very rare to meet those people who don't deserve it, as in, you know, they aren't really putting in the work and working really, really hard. And so that's the thing I notice just more than anything is that the people that I look at and say, wow, they are really cooking and they've been able to build something that lasts. I mean, they just all work harder than I do.

Starting point is 00:04:42 You know, they all just have, and they might be, you know, they might be more ambitious than me, really. And so in a way, it's actually not, I'm never, I never look at other people who are doing really well in my field and get really discouraged because I'm always looking at them and I'm like, well, they work harder than you. So, you know, for me, it's like, well, if you want to do better, like work harder. Now, back up, you know, one little minute. I mean, that doesn't mean that all success is earned. I mean, I don't think there's necessarily a meritocracy going on, like especially in publishing, for example. So this week, there was a, and I don't mean to pick on her, but there was a woman who did a short story in the New Yorker called Cat Person. And it went viral and all these people read it.

Starting point is 00:05:37 It was the most popular story on the New Yorker.com ever. And she just sold her short story collection for a million dollars. And, you know, is it deserved? I don't know. I don't know anything about her. I mean, whenever I hear someone gets a million dollars for a debut short story collection, that sounds insane to me. You know, and so it's interesting how I think the initial impulse for a lot of other writers and, you know, fiction writers trying to get their stuff out there was to be kind of insanely jealous of this woman, you know, like, God, you get a million dollar publishing deal. But I'm, you know, I've been in the this business a little bit long enough to think, God, man, I wouldn't want to be her now. You know, because it's like, hey, you know, yeah, you got a million dollars and you give your agent 15% of it or whatever. But then it's like, God, you've got nowhere to go but down now. And like for being a relatively unknown person and then just to like jump into the spotlight that way, that's got to be rough. So in some ways my heart goes out to her and I think, man, now there's a lot of work. Now, that said, I don't know anything about.

Starting point is 00:06:45 her. So maybe, you know, a lot of times when you see overnight success, you know, there's 10 years of work that goes along with it. So you just never know. But I do find that that word you used sustainable, that is a word that is just, I'm so fascinated by because to really make a career out of this stuff, you've got to be really smart and you kind of have to have a vision and you just have to work really hard and stick with it. And so to give you a 10, minute answer to your very simple question. I just, I find that like a lot of the people who I look up to, you know, they just like, they just work harder than I do. Well, why don't you work harder? Because I don't like to work, you know. I, you know, I like to do what I can get away with,

Starting point is 00:07:35 you know. I do think that for someone like me who, you know, mainly, I mean, my work a lot of times is what people don't really think looks like work. I mean, a lot of what I do as a writer and an artist is, you know, sitting around and scribbling and taking a walk and kind of staring out the window. And, you know, so I didn't really get into this business to work 120 hours a week, you know, and make high six figures. You know, I got into this life because I like it and I feel like I'm pretty good at it. And so, you know, a lot of what I, you know, instead of working hard, you know, because I think people look at me, oh, you must work really hard. And it's like, well, I just work a lot. Like I, it's a sustain, again, that word sustainable. You know, I'm very much a fan of what Stephen King says, which is like, you know, if you write a page a day, at the end of the year, you've got 365 pages. That's enough for a novel, you know. And so.

Starting point is 00:08:42 I'm very much interested in that idea that little bits of work they add up over time. And so I never think of myself as someone who works necessarily hard. I just work a lot and I work in a sustained manner. Does that make sense? Yeah. But it is a little maybe oxymoronish because you said, I said, why don't you work hard? And you said, I don't like to. But you do.

Starting point is 00:09:11 in a way, just maybe in a different way that you're defining it differently, the fact that you're working pretty much constantly. Because I found, and I've recently made a career transition to where my life's work, the stuff I love most, which this is one of those things, is part of my job. But I would tell people I don't have a job anymore, but I do a lot of work, a lot of things. And that feels like, to me, similar your path, you don't necessarily have, you don't have a job, but you're constantly working, you're constantly noticing things, you're sketching, you're thinking of ideas, you're drawing, you're drawing, you're writing. That's how you basically earn a living, I believe, right? And then some of the things that come from that, speaking and those types of activities. So it feels like you're constantly working, but it doesn't necessarily feel like it because you love to do it. Yeah. I mean, what my wife always says is she's like, well, you say you don't work hard, but you never stop. You know, you're never off.

Starting point is 00:10:03 There's never a, you know, there's never a night where I look over and you're not, you know, working. I mean, you're, you know, and so it's kind of this endless, you know, stream of, of work. So I guess it's, you know, it's not the traditional, it's not the kind of punch in, punch out type of work that we think of with the job, you know. It's your life and your career are kind of enmeshed, you know. I mean, even when I'm, even when I'm playing with my kids, you know, I'm always thinking about like, oh, well, you know, what Owen's doing is a lot like what I wrote about yesterday. And maybe, you know, what I mean. I mean, you're always making the mental notes and sometimes you're making the literal notes in your notebook. So I guess that's a really interesting distinction is that for me,

Starting point is 00:10:51 you're right, is that when you turn your kind of passion or whatever into your breadwinning, there is a kind of constantly onness to it, you know, instead of being able to just punch out and punch in and punch out like you would think about in a traditional career. But I do think the one, thing that I really like about being someone who's more entrepreneurial or, you know, kind of running their own show is I think everybody in all kinds of work, just everywhere across the country is being squeezed in a way that they're asked, they're being asked to give more for the same return, you know? So I think that everybody's being asked to work more and everybody's being asked to check their email on weekends and, you know, all that awful stuff.

Starting point is 00:11:42 And so for me, I think one pitfall of I try to be a really good boss, you know, to myself. You know, I may always make the joke that my boss is a jerk, you know, but I try not to be, you know, so I do try to give myself a little bit of time off. But I think that just like comes with the gig, you know, you just know that everything is fodder for your work. You know, you're just always on. So you're a writer who draws and you make art with words and books with pictures. I believe you even wrote that you stole that from somebody else as well. But that's an interesting description of who you are and what you do.

Starting point is 00:12:27 A writer who draws and you make art with words and books with pictures. And I first became, I first learned of your work from your incredible book called, steal like an artist and I think that's what you're really really well known for what was your process for putting this idea of stealing like an artist into a book form and then then I'm curious to hear about how you responded when this thing blew up um yeah well so I had um I've always wanted to write books um since I can remember but I you know when I was probably in my early 20 it became clear to me that making a living as a writer was a pipe dream. It was very, it's very rare to be able to make a living just off of writing.

Starting point is 00:13:23 And so I just thought, well, I'm going to have decent day jobs, you know. So I was a librarian for a while. I was a web designer for a while. I was a copywriter in an advertising agency for a while. And along all that time, you know, I had this, you know, they call it a side hustle now. I didn't think of it as a side hustle. I just thought of it as my life, you know. I mean, it was, I had my day job, and then this is who I was for real.

Starting point is 00:13:51 And so I always kept a website, and I was always making my own work. You know, I started my website in 2005 when I was right out of college. And, you know, just stuck with it for a long time. And then my first book, which a lot of people forget, is it's called newspaper blackout. And it's a poetry collection that's made from all of these. I take these articles from the New York Times, and I take a Sharpie marker, and I basically black out everything but like 10 or 15 words. And it sort of looks like if the CIA made haiku. And so there are these really weird things.

Starting point is 00:14:28 And that was actually my first book. And that came out. I signed the contract for that book. in 2008, and then that book came out in 2010. And I was still a web designer when that book came out. And I just figured, hey, I'll do these little quirky books every once in a while. And then I'll have a day job and, like, this will be a good life. And then what happened when Blackout came out was I started giving talks.

Starting point is 00:14:56 You know, people would ask me to come speak at a museum or about my work or, you know, a school would ask me to come. And so I had been blogging about my process and how I felt about creativity and what a creative life was, that kind of thing for years. And so when a community college asked me to give a talk to a bunch of kids, you know, basically the two nights before or whatever, I made up a list of what I thought, ten things that I wish I had known when I was first starting out as a creative person. and they basically just copy and paste it a bunch of stuff from my blog and added a few things here and there. And that became the talk that called Steel Like an Artist. And when I was done at that talk, it went over really well, but then I'm one of those millennials, you know, digital natives who's like, oh, if it's not online, it doesn't exist. So I turned it into a blog post. And that's actually what went viral.

Starting point is 00:15:57 that blog post that was a speech that was actually a bunch of blog posts. That like became this, you know, that was the thing that went viral overnight. And we're talking, this was like 2011. And so like it just like took off. And then, you know, I had a, I had enough, you know, I'd already done a book. I'd already been through what it was like to publish a book. And I had my eye on like an agent that I knew. And so, you know, it was very.

Starting point is 00:16:27 easy then for steel like an artist to become like a book then. So everything was kind of primed for steel to work. And then, you know, it just kind of came from there. So the point of that story, that long story is that I didn't plan on steel like an artist. Like I just, I never sat down with a business plan and was like, okay, I'm going to put out a book called Steel Like an Artist and it's going to be a bestseller, it's going to change my life and blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, all that stuff. It was just like, I have this thing to do,

Starting point is 00:17:03 this talk to give. I've been collecting all these quotes about people stealing things for creative work and using that term, steal, and thinking about influence. And, of course, my first book was stealing things. And, you know, so it just like, it was all, it was like just a process, you know?

Starting point is 00:17:21 And that's what I try to, like, emphasize to people is that, you know, kind of going back, to what we talked about earlier, if you're just constantly working and putting work out there, you've got all these little bits and pieces that add up and then you can kind of reconnect them and recollect them into something that's new. And so that's kind of the story. But for me, there's a writer named Jessica Crispin that I like a lot. And she says that I'm from the Midwest and I'm from Ohio and, and Jessus says, you know, I've always been very Midwestern in that I just do the work that's in front of me. And I felt very much like that

Starting point is 00:18:08 about my career. Like I just kind of did the work that was in front of me and then that work led to something else. So there was never any kind of master plan or vision. Yeah, I was born and raised and currently reside in Ohio, so I understand the thing. We're in Ohio. Dayton, Ohio. Oh, yeah. So I went to school down the road in Miami. Oh, nice.

Starting point is 00:18:31 I did too. Yeah. Oh, well, Redhawks. We might have been there at the same time. When did you go? I went in 2001 to 2005. I was there. Well, there you go.

Starting point is 00:18:43 So we were at Miami. We may have bumped into each other somewhere. So I went to school at the hippie school, the Western College. Oh, wow. On the east side campus. That's cool. What did you study? Well, my major technically was called interdisciplinary studies. Okay.

Starting point is 00:19:03 But basically what that meant is I took a lot of writing and art classes and read a thesis at the end. That's cool. Yeah. It was fun. It was a good place to be. I actually don't have that program anymore. Oh. So that was kind of a nice, that was a good moment in my life. And I met my wife there were Miami mergers. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:19:31 So, yeah, and I grew up in Circleville, which is about 40 minutes south of Columbus down in 23. So, you know. Very cool. Yeah, so we're always, you know, we live in Austin now in Texas. But, you know, we've lived here for about 10 years. But we're always threatening to move back to Ohio. Oh, really? Yeah, because we're, you know, our family's up there.

Starting point is 00:19:53 It would be cool. I got some neat events coming up, and one of them is going to be with, do you know James Clear? You probably do. I don't know him. You know James? He moved to Columbus, so a great writer. He writes at James Clear.com.

Starting point is 00:20:07 I've got a book coming up. Columbus is supposedly now, like, this kind of bustling place. Yeah. That's what I've heard anyway. My younger brother lives there, and we go there a good amount. It's great. I want to talk about your creative process. This is something I found to be in common, commonality,

Starting point is 00:20:27 is that people, great leaders, great performers, producers have rituals, routines, process for their work, for the stuff they're most proud of. What is your creative process? What does it look like? I know you're always thinking, you're noticing things. You're considering, even when you're playing with your kids, you mentioned, you're considering a post. But what does it look like to map out your creative process?

Starting point is 00:20:56 So I actually have recently, I've been thinking a lot about this lately because I'm, I realize that I'm really good at certain parts of my creative process and I'm not so great at other parts. So the person that's influenced me the most this year is a writer called David Sedaris, who I think a lot of people know of, but not everyone's totally familiar with how he works. David, he, Mr. Cesaris, he published his diaries this year. And what I found out about him is that he has this very rigid process for going about his work. So what he does is all day long he has a notebook in his pocket.

Starting point is 00:21:41 And he gets that notebook out all day and writes in it and takes that notebook out all day and writes in it and takes little notes and stuff and whatever. And then he just goes about his day. And then the next morning, he sits down and he writes in his diary. And so he'll open up that notebook and he'll look at his notes and then he'll write about significant things that happened that day and he'll type it in the diary. And then what happens is every season basically. So like it's the solstice today when we're recording.

Starting point is 00:22:13 So basically around the seasons, Cedaris will print out his diary and bind it in a little binder. And then he'll, and then he has like 150 volumes of these at this point because he's been keeping a diary since like the 70s. And then what it'll do is he keeps an index of all the kind of interesting things

Starting point is 00:22:41 that are actually in the, diary. And he's, you know, and he says, you know, for every nine pages of the diary, or, you know, nine pages are crap and there's like one that's decent, even if that's the ratio. I don't know. So then after he has this index and all these bound diaries, then when he's out on the road, like when he has to give a lecture or something or he's out on book tour, he will write a piece based on, he will actually read Sarmine Piz's diaries live. And then, What he'll do is, based on how the audience responds to the piece, he has a marginalia system on his notes where, like, if they laugh, you know, he'll put a checkmark. And if nobody laughs, you know, he'll draw a little skull with a pencil, you know.

Starting point is 00:23:30 And then he'll take that material and he'll go back to his desk and he'll rewrite. and then eventually, you know, those diary pieces become his great essays that, like, happened in his books or, you know, publish him in the New Yorker and then it'll turn him into a book. So, like, what really what I loved about reading about this, you know, specifically with Sedaris's, he just has this very, it's like a factory. It's like a one-man factory for making books, you know. And if you talk to a lot of writers, they have this. Writers who really churn out books over the years have this. I know you've interviewed Ryan Holiday, right? Yeah, three times.

Starting point is 00:24:16 Okay, so like Ryan is like a, he has like an even more like, you know, he has this whole no card system than we use this and all this stuff. So he's another person. And he learned that from Robert Green. And so like he has this no card system where it was. basically how he turns reading into other books. He takes notes on books and then puts them on these note cards, and then when he has enough note cards, he makes a book.

Starting point is 00:24:42 But what this process is is there are stages. So with Sedaris, it's like you collect lots of things, and then you make time to actually write about those things. And then you kind of, there's another process of collection where you actually gather some of those things into maybe a longer piece of writing or, you know, an essay or something. And then you put that thing out into the world somehow, whether it's reading it live or putting it on your blog or whatever. And then you collect the feedback from that. And so it's just this kind of like circular method.

Starting point is 00:25:22 So I have tried really hard this year to do that. And so what I've been doing all year is, you know, I do. have that. I have a pocket notebook where I take little notes and stuff. But then when I do every morning, as I sit down with my notebook and I fill about five to ten pages of my notebook with just, you know, diary entries and stuff like that, you know, and I use my notes from the day to before to write. And sometimes I actually use Twitter as a notebook. So like throughout the day, I'll have an idea and I'll tweet it out. and then I'll go back to Twitter the next morning and write longer about some of the stuff.

Starting point is 00:26:05 But what was interesting this year, what I realized is that I wasn't taking it any further than that. I really wasn't, you know, I had the collection and the writing down, that I really wasn't turning it into something else. And so I went back to daily blogging this year. I started in October. And I just went back to my plain old WordPress blog

Starting point is 00:26:26 at AustinCleon.com, just my old like decade, you know, 12 years old blog. And I started writing a daily post every day. And what I found is that just by adding that, you know, post, just by adding that daily post all of a sudden, I was taking this stuff a little bit further. Because what would happen is, is I would have to turn from doing that kind of inward writing,

Starting point is 00:26:52 that diarying and note stuff, to actually crafting something that other people were going to read. And it was like out there. And then I could see what people said about it. You know, I could see what people tweeted about it. Or I don't have comments on my blog because I don't just, I don't have, for one thing, like comments are a nightmare. There's a whole list of reasons. But, you know, I'm able, people email me or I see it on Twitter, that kind of thing.

Starting point is 00:27:22 So I'm able to get some feedback from people. And then seeing how that stuff is out in the world then, you know, it's been four years since I did a real book. And I've been working in the background all that time. But, you know, things really started cooking on the bookend when I added that kind of that piece, that daily blogging back. because I realized, you know, that's how my other books started. And yet, after those books came out, you know, everybody was on Twitter, on social media or whatever, and I just kind of let my blog die like everybody else. But there was something about blogging that was essential to my process.

Starting point is 00:28:07 And so I think the real tying it back around to a point, as far as my creative process goes, it's just a lot of like it's like collecting and then synthesizing and then publishing it's like this whole it's like collecting and then making and then sharing and then collecting

Starting point is 00:28:31 making and sharing it's I don't have better words for it than that but it's just a it's like it's like the I'm seeing the recycle sign you know reduce reuse recycle that's the kind of it's just a process of like gathering little bits and

Starting point is 00:28:47 and then smashing the bits together and ironing it out and adding and kind of making something. And then putting things back into the world and seeing how people respond, taking the responses, and then keep tweaking. So it's kind of iterative. But it's really like going out in the world and like finding little bits and pieces and then weaving it into your own work and then putting your work out. It's kind of a, it's like the two books. It's like steal like an artist and show your work. It's that it's your stealing and sharing. You know, it's constant, you know, and actually it's funny because the David Sederis's diaries that he's published.

Starting point is 00:29:26 It's called theft by finding. So he sees it in terms of stealing too. I mean, all his overheard conversations and little bits and pieces he sees out in the world. He sees that as theft in a way. So, yeah, it's like stealing and sharing. That's actually, you know, you take this. take the last 10 minutes of rambling and you can just break it down to that. It's like stealing and sharing, you know?

Starting point is 00:29:52 You, I was reading Show Your Work this morning again and one of the parts I made a little another highlight is about being a better listener and talking less and about not being human spam. And then you said all great writers are really great readers. And if someone tells you or they say that, I'm paraphrasing, by the way, not quoting, But if someone says that they don't read, you can cross them off the list of being a potentially good writer. All great writers are well read.

Starting point is 00:30:24 And so I think the interesting part of that is that's a question I ask a lot to you. What are you reading or what's something interesting you've read? And I ask it at a genuine curiosity because maybe I can then read whatever that person's reading. But I've found that to be very common amongst the leaders who seem to have done well for an extended period of time, is that they are extremely well read. They're always searching and finding good text, whether they're articles, blog post, books, that they're quality readers.

Starting point is 00:30:57 How is the reading? I'm guessing that's part of the collection. How is the reading part of your process? That's a great question. And I would like to say right up front that if you do as a person, as a person out in the world, if you're like me and you talk too much and you're you're always trying to put yourself in situations where you can do more listening. I do think that that question, what are you reading, is one of the best questions because it doesn't ask anyone to really, it just opens up interesting conversations.

Starting point is 00:31:33 There was a guy named Will Schwalby who I interviewed at the Texas Book Festival this year. and he wrote a book called Books for Living. And that is his favorite question. And we talked about how much we liked that question. And when I was a young writer, that was the question I always, that was the question I was asked the writer during Q&A was like, what are you reading? Reading is so essential and so much a part of my process. I don't even think about it sometimes.

Starting point is 00:32:04 It's funny because I'm making my year-end list right now. kind of going back through my reading log, and I guess that's one important detail. I keep a list of everything I read. I mean, I think people should start doing that. If you're a reader, you should have a notebook or a text file on your computer and keep track of what you read.

Starting point is 00:32:28 And the next best thing that you could do is start to either copy or transcribe passages of favorite book. a lot like what Ryan does. Ryan Holiday, who we mentioned earlier, with his note cards. And for me, reading is both, you know, I said to my wife this morning on our walk, I said, you know, reading has to be research or it has to be pure pleasure for me. There's nothing in the middle, you know, it's either, and, you know, hopefully it's both. But, you know, reading is either about me trying to steal stuff for my own work or it's just pure escapist pleasure.

Starting point is 00:33:13 But I make, you know, people who whine about not reading enough, you know, it's always like, well, it's like doing your push-ups every day, you know, it's like, but it's way better. You just have to, you know, you just have to make time for it. And so for me, I read the morning a lot. I think the morning is a really underrated time for reading. A lot of people read at night, and I do too, but I was fall asleep. And so I like to read a little bit in the morning, you know, and get up a little bit before my kids do and do a little reading. And when I commute, you know, when I had a commute, that was great because I would read on the bus and read on my lunch break and stuff like that. But, you know, Ryan, Ryan's a great person to learn from about that.

Starting point is 00:34:00 You know, you just carry a book with you everywhere and write in it and underline and just constantly be mining stuff. But I would also, you know, recommend people. I think a lot of people are shocked that I don't read a lot in my genre. You know, I don't sit around and read a lot of creativity books, actually. I read a lot of, I read artist's biographies a lot and I read, you know, essays and I love old philosophy and stuff like that. I mean, my favorite book this year was a biography of, well, one of my favorite books was a biography of Henry David Thoreau, the woman named Laura Walls wrote. And so I was reading that book and then reading Thoreau's diary, you know, so I don't actually

Starting point is 00:34:53 like sit around and read a lot of like creativity bestsellers you know because i always figure um people don't read me they don't want me to synthesize what's new you know people when they read me want you know part of my job as an author is to point people to things that they might not have come across you know and part of my job is to you know in terms of marketability even is i have to have stuff that not everyone else is looking at You know, and so I spend a lot of time. I think Ryan and I are both people, too, who like to read old stuff, you know. He's really into the Stoics.

Starting point is 00:35:32 You know, I like to read, gosh, I'm blanking now, but, you know, I try to read as old as I can in some ways. And I think, you know, I think the reason why people who are really, you know, I think being a leader, you have to be kind of curious. But I also think that, you know, leaders are always looking for examples of good leaders. And one of the best ways to get in touch with those people who made a great impact on the world is to read books because it's so, you can't just call them up. You know, you can't just call up Winston Churchill or whoever, I don't know, you know, and you can't, and ask him what he did. but you can go back and read about it. And particularly, you know, one of Ryan's, I keep talking about Ryan,

Starting point is 00:36:26 but he's on the mind now. But, you know, Ryan loves Marcus Aurelius. He loves the meditations. And, you know, Aurelius was the great emperor. Well, he just happened to write down all these notes to himself. And so the thing I love about dead authors is, you know, they're masters who can't refuse you as a student, you know. that you're instantly in their classroom, you know, when you read their books.

Starting point is 00:36:53 And so reading is just, it continues to be, you know, we're in this multimedia culture where information is at everyone's fingertips, blah, blah, blah. But, you know, cracking a book, it turns out still to be the most low impact, low cost, high return practice that you can do, you know. It's so cheap and so easy, and you could do it anywhere, and anyone can do it who's literate. It's just like, it's the one activity in my life that I would say it's the highest, you know, it's the highest, you know, cost benefit ratio. It really is. I love it.

Starting point is 00:37:38 Awesome. When you, I'm thinking of the person who has a somewhat stressful job who works many hours, not necessarily some of the jobs you've described. but it's tough. And they say, my job demands a lot of me. And I am naturally not creative. And the only reason I say this is I'm sure you've heard it a lot. And I certainly have where people say, I'm good. If you know, tell me the process or what am I supposed to do.

Starting point is 00:38:06 I'll follow the directions and I'll get my job done and I'll do a good job. And they have these key performance indicators and I'll measure out fine on those. But I'm not really a creative or I'm just exhausted. or I don't have time. What advice do you give to people that think inherently they're not creative? I think people in this country need hobbies. I think that there was a time in the past where, you know, the business guy or whoever went home on the weekends and worked on his boat, you know, or a monkey on a car.

Starting point is 00:38:45 people used to have hobbies in this country, you know, and now they have Netflix accounts. You know, it's like we have become a culture that we work all week and then we just like zone out on the weekends, you know. And I think a lot of it is the burnout from work. You know, I think we're all working more for less return. But I think that hobbies are not, in my opinion, hobbies have become a thing where it's just not cool to have one anymore. I think that people, you know, you're either being an amateur like isn't cool anymore. And the way I think about that is like, you know, think of a young knitter or something. You know, somebody who makes scarves on the bus on the way to work and then they, you know, give the scarf. Sometimes knitters get really mad at me for saying this because they're like, well,

Starting point is 00:39:45 who says that knitters have to make things for other people? It's its own creative activity, you know, whatever. But, you know, say that you like to knit on the bus, on the way to work, and then, you know, you make this beautiful scarf and you give it to your friend at work, who's your work buddy or whatever. Nine times out of ten, I feel like in this culture, what is the best compliment you can get when you make something for? someone. That's good. Oh, wow, you could sell these on Etsy.

Starting point is 00:40:17 Right? Yeah. We're so, like, immediately anything, any creative talent, anyone shows outside of the marketplace, we are immediately ready to throw that into the market and into, you know, praise it in market terms, you know? And so I would recommend to people like, you know, just have a hobby. have something that puts you in touch with your creative side, whether it's fixing motorcycles or, you know,

Starting point is 00:40:47 you might have to branch out and expand your definition of creativity. You know, my personal notion of creativity is looking at what's in front of you that's in front of everybody else and being able to turn it into something new. So for the knitter, that is looking at a pile of yarn and turning it into a scarf. For a mechanic, it's looking at something broken and fixing it. So I would just encourage people, try to find some sort of thing on the weekends or at night that you can do that is restorative, that puts you not only in touch with your more creative side, but also kind of restores you, that calms you, that gives you. that time away from work because I think what you'll find is that purely just by doing that kind of fun hobby work, you'll work out work problems while you're doing it because your

Starting point is 00:41:54 subconscious works in such a way that if you're having a problem at work, if you're trying to solve some crazy problem, if you get your hands and spirit busy on something else, usually your subconscious will work something out and you'll have that great breakthrough. But, you know, if I, I think everyone, you know, owes it to themselves to have at least one hobby and one thing that they're passionate about that they don't try to make money off of that's just their thing. You know, and I think that if you just, the thing that's interesting about creativity to me is if you spend time on a creative passion, you cannot help but have that leak out into the other parts of your life. It activates a part of you that is then usable all over. You know, creativity is not like a,

Starting point is 00:42:44 it's a renewable resource, you know, it's really a way of operating. It's not, it's not really a thing that you have or don't have. It's just kind of a way of being. And so for people who are burn out and trying to get in touch with that work, I would say, you know, your boss isn't going to do that for you. Your boss isn't going to give you like a creative endeavor to work on. And so, you know, you have to find something for yourself that's going to put you in touch with this stuff. Now, I do think for people who run workplaces, I do have some ideas about how people can be more creative at work. You know, one of the things that's in steel like an artist that people really like to pick up on is the idea of having a separate analog workstation and a separate digital

Starting point is 00:43:35 workstation. So having an analog desk and a digital desk. And what do I mean by that? Well, the analog desk has like pens and paper and sticky notes and markers and staplers and stuff like that. All that kind of fun stuff that you find in the supply closet that no one supposedly uses anymore because we're paperless or whatever. You have all that stuff on one desk. And then on the other desk, you know, you've got your computer and your phone and all that electronic stuff. And one of the things I find that is if you just spend about 10 or 20 minutes at the

Starting point is 00:44:08 analog desk, moving a pencil, cross paper, you know, writing ideas on Post-it notes, cutting things out of a magazine, you know, keep a bunch of magazines around, look through them and cut things out and paste them together. If you just kind of pretend like it's craft time for like 10 or 20 minutes, usually you'll find something in that mess or you'll clear your head enough that you can get back over to your digital station and start working again. But I love the idea of the analog versus digital desk. I also think that walking during lunch breaks, everyone's required to get a lunch break. I think people need to take their lunch breaks. and I think if they can, they need to walk on it.

Starting point is 00:44:53 That was the best thing. I think walking is an insanely creative activity, especially walking in the city. There are so much to see and so many ideas to be had. And then I think commutes are really, that's when you can do your reading time. If you don't drive, and if you do drive, you can listen to audiobooks,

Starting point is 00:45:11 but that's a great time to get your reading in. But really just like trying to find all those pockets of time and your workday where you can really, you know, both ease up on work a little bit, but also kind of feed yourself. I know you talk about enjoying captivity, right? Right in the bus, waiting two hours for a haircut, you know, not using your laptop at the airport, those types of things. Yeah, never pay for Wi-Fi on a plane.

Starting point is 00:45:40 Yeah. I mean, everybody, I see people working on planes. I'm like, you could just tell your boss that the Wi-Fi wasn't working. No one will ever know. That's two hours on a flight that you could have to yourself, you know. But I think that, you know, just trying to find these moments. And again, for people who do run workplaces, understanding that there are some things that you can do in the office to get people in those kind of creative zones. You know, I think, for example, I think for a lot of creative people, you know, the open office plan is a nightmare.

Starting point is 00:46:18 You know, that idea that you would all just be in a big room looking at each other and that somehow you're all going to have great ideas. I mean, what a nightmare. And so, you know, some of the more innovative places I've visited, you know, they've started to have like little pods or where people can let go and, you know, like sit and like with their laptop, it's like soundproof. You know, they're little meeting rooms and stuff like that. I do think that's like a good step.

Starting point is 00:46:45 But I actually also think that cubicles are really underrated because, you know, if you're going to have an open office plan, at least having some walls around you where you can like pin up some pictures or something, you know, I feel like moving from cubicle to open office plan was really like, was a real blow to the American worker. Are some of those places shifting back? Because like, you know, was Silicon Valley, Google and other places, I've heard that a lot of the creatives complained enough. to where they're now shifting back. I think maybe the open office plan, I think that's becoming pretty mainstream. The idea that that can be kind of a nightmare, specifically for your introverted types

Starting point is 00:47:27 and people who really need more headspace to think. Yeah. One other question I had one of my notes. I have a lot of more notes, so hopefully we could do this again at some point. But one of them was that I think means a lot to me personally is a desire for hearts, not necessarily eyeballs. and using some words from your book, stealing from you.

Starting point is 00:47:48 The number of followers doesn't really matter as much as the quality of the people who follow you. And I personally learned this from the caliber of the emails that I receive and notes from people is blows my mind. I mean, the quality of the questions, the how they make you think. Then sometimes, you know, I'll call them because I think that's fun to do every once in a while. And it surprises people a little bit. And the caliber of those conversations and the work that these people do blows my mind. I mean, it makes me more proud than maybe anything about this podcast is the quality of the audience, very high-level thinkers. And that's very cool.

Starting point is 00:48:29 And so you've talked about that, about wanting hearts, not necessarily eyeballs that. It's the quality of the people who are following you, not necessarily the number and the engagement of those people. Where did you learn that? We are measuring culture. I mean, the market has gobbled up everything in this culture, in this country. I mean, you know, the idea that you can measure everything. Look at the way we teach in schools now. I mean, how children are taught to the test now.

Starting point is 00:49:02 The way we measure whether children are learning anything in our schools is through quantifiable testing and measurement. and the thing that we've lost in the culture is the fact that not everything can be measured. You cannot measure everything. And I think what's important, you know, for me, that was obviously apparent right off the bat. You know, I've been someone who is never, I love pop music, but, you know, I always love punk rock too. And I was always, you know, I always understood that bands who didn't have, the sales had these kind of cult fallings and these people that, you know, they had the kind of fans that would let you crash on their floor and drive you to the airport, you know, just that that would

Starting point is 00:49:52 also start a fan club for you or, you know, make their own zines and share your music with people. You know, I mean, there was, there's that, you know, there's that vibe of, you know, that kind of building a community around your work that I think for the creative person in particular is so much more valuable than a bunch of people, you know, that just just the eyeballs, you know, because the people that you come across, that's really what's so great. And I think, you know, for me personally in my work, a lot of times when I talk to people about the best thing about what I do is, you know, a lot of times I'll just say it's the friends I've made. You know, becoming a peer of people that you look up to is probably one of the most satisfying things

Starting point is 00:50:46 that can happen in your life. And I've had amazing, you know, luck with this. I've become friends with some of the people who I just like, you know, borderline worshipped in the beginning. And And understanding that, you know, that's the good stuff, you know, because if, you know, when you really, yeah, it's great to make a living and, you know, it's great to be popular and, and that kind of thing. But at the end of the day, for people who are really self-motivated and driven, it's really just about, you know, making your life what you want to look like and doing the kind of work that you want to do. And the way you do that is through the people you meet. And so the heart's not eyeballs thing. It's really real. And I think that's, you know, it's interesting.

Starting point is 00:51:40 I find that through my newsletter. The people who read my newsletter are just, you know, because they've signed up to be spammed by me, basically. You know, I send them an email every week. And they trust me and they trust that I'm going to actually share with them things that I actually care about. A lot of people ask me like, oh, do you have like an assistant or something

Starting point is 00:52:02 that goes through links and that's what you share and stuff? I'm like, no. You know, how would, why would it be good then? You know? And so, but I've noticed like when I have a problem and I ask my newsletter readers, you know, it's amazing how they get back to me. And just like the knowledge share and just

Starting point is 00:52:24 the people I hear from. But it is true. Those are the people you want. And frankly, if you want to be a business person, if you want to think like a business person about it, those are also the people that buy 10 copies and give them to the people at work. Right.

Starting point is 00:52:42 You know what I mean? Those are also the people that buy, you know, a whole batch of stuff for their office. Or those are the people that are like, we got to get him to come speak to our company about this or whatever. You know what I mean? So it turns out the quality actually helps the bottom line too. But I'm someone who's wrestled with that question of measurement.

Starting point is 00:53:06 And I've thankfully gotten into a zone with my career. I've been successful enough now that, you know, I don't have Google Analytics on my website anymore because I realized it just doesn't mean anything for me. I'm still going to do the same thing. I'm still going to, you know, and some people, you know, people yell at me, well, you could be, you could know what you need to tweak and, you know, where you're losing people. It just doesn't matter to me, you know, it just doesn't matter to me. I'm going to do the same thing. I'm going to go to that blog every day and make a post no matter what, you know. And so I just think that to push back a little bit against the measurement, to think a little bit less about how many Instagram followers you have or, you know, how many LinkedIn connections you have. you know, to work on the quality of the connections versus the number, you know. I mean, that is just so important for everyone's life. Agree.

Starting point is 00:54:02 One more question, Austin. This has been great, man. So we got introduced by a mutual friend, Neil Pezrecha, a guest and really a successful writer in his own right. Great dude, too, by the way. When you saw that, he told you to go do this show called The Learning Leader Show. what was the first thought that came to mind? Oh, yeah. Poor Ryan.

Starting point is 00:54:27 I put him off for like years now. Are you serious? I should do that show. Do you recall? You probably don't, but do you recall the cold emails I think I sent you for like the last three years? Oh, yeah. It was like never a good time.

Starting point is 00:54:45 It was always like, oh, you know, maybe next, oh, maybe next spring. or something. I mean, I don't, everyone's got stuff going on. So I never, I never bothered it. All I, I never view anyone

Starting point is 00:54:58 to saying no. But you know, you were always, it was interesting. You were, you know, you were always polite about it. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:55:04 And then you always followed up. Yeah. And you, you know, you were, you were friendly and pleasant. Yeah. And, you know,

Starting point is 00:55:12 it's funny, you know, talk about connections. Like once again, you know. Yeah. Neil was like, you should do this.

Starting point is 00:55:19 He's, he's really well prepared. He has great questions and like Ryan's been on the show you know you should do it and I was like oh yeah sure I'll do it you know but that's the kind of like that was way more convincing than if you had emailed and been like oh we have you know this many thousand downloads so you know what I mean I mean those are the kinds of and that really feeds back into what we were talking about earlier about you know just the measurement like what you know what what is the

Starting point is 00:55:52 the, you know, measurement isn't everything. Yeah. The quality is everything. It's quality. Right. Yeah. And that's why I think it's also cool just to see the community that's built. If you try to put out good work on a consistent basis.

Starting point is 00:56:08 And that's my big thing is, you know, I ship every Sunday night at 7 o'clock Eastern no matter what and have since the beginning. And I can't imagine ever stopping because I love it. I mean, it's not a job. It's work. that I love. And so for me, the community of friends built from, I think, approaching each conversation with a curious mind and being genuine is the is just so cool, man. It is so cool to get to develop some friendships with, like you said, with some of the people that you really look up

Starting point is 00:56:40 to or their work has profoundly influenced your life. And that's, that's been fun for me to be able to do that. And I'm really appreciative of the fact that you, uh, I knew at some point we'd do it, but it just, you know, I had to have had to sometimes patience. You know, oh, well, I'm a Red Hawk and so are you. Well, here's the thing, though. I went there, but I also, I also had to finish my football playing career at Ohio University, so I went to both schools. Now, that's really interesting because those two are, I mean, you know, it was funny. My mom, you know, my mom was a bobcat.

Starting point is 00:57:15 So, like, so. Yeah, I'm both. Yeah, that is interesting. And both good schools and different, you know, yeah, I was always interested in like going to scripts or something at OU, like the journalism. Oh, yeah, really good. OU also has a really good honors program that's more of like a, I think it's like more of a tutoring type system, if I remember correctly. Yeah. Yeah, so you did time in Oxford and Athens.

Starting point is 00:57:46 Yeah, it was strictly a football decision. I was there. I played quarterback. I don't know if you went to games. I played quarterback. And so Ben Rothosberger was there at the same time. You and I were there. So, and the quarterback's tough.

Starting point is 00:57:58 You know, only one guy gets to play at a time. You were out of job once. You were out of a job. Well, I'll tell you, it was a good lesson because I learned that I can try really, really hard and realize that sometimes it's not going to be good enough. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:58:17 Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's interesting. I mean, you know, and it's funny because I always love the names in Ohio, you know, Athens and Oxford. It sounds so lofty. I know. It's funny. I mean, I always thought I would have a better time at Athens, actually.

Starting point is 00:58:33 I always thought I'd have a little bit more fun at OU. But we had plenty of fun at Western. Oh, yeah. Oxford's, they're both great. When people ask me, where should you go, I'd say you really can't go wrong. Well, I actually got married in Oxford. for two. I mean, we got married.

Starting point is 00:58:49 Yeah, we got married in Coomler Chapel, which is on that side of campus. It's beautiful. So, yeah, we went back. I haven't been back for years. All right. If you are coming back, let me know. Let me know. All right.

Starting point is 00:59:01 I'll let you know. Go to Begill and Delhi. Yeah. Or Mac and Joe's or something. Mac and Joe's, that was, yeah, exactly. Same stuff. Definitely. No, this has been cool, Austin.

Starting point is 00:59:13 I really appreciate it, man. Where would you send my listeners to learn more about you online? Just go to my website, old school, austinclion.com. And you can check out my blog. And there's a, my favorite thing I do is my every week I send out a newsletter with 10 things I think are worth sharing. That's my favorite thing I do. And that's where I hang out. It's really good.

Starting point is 00:59:38 I've been reading it for a while now. It's great. So I appreciate you put out. And thanks again, man, for doing this. And I definitely want to continue the dialogue as we both progress, man. Thank you. This was fun. All right. Thanks, Austin. What an interesting guy. Austin Cleon.

Starting point is 00:59:54 I really enjoy talking to him. I learned a lot. It makes me think. So I want to thank Austin for being my guest. And thank you for listening. If you enjoyed it, I love it if you would subscribe, rate, and review the show in iTunes Apple Podcasts. It really helps spread the message to others. If you could subscribe, rate, and write a review in iTunes Apple Podcasts. I'd really appreciate it.

Starting point is 01:00:19 Thank you so much for being here and being part of this community. Cannot wait for the next one. See you guys next week. This episode is brought to you by Gusto. Gusto is making payroll benefits in HR easy for small businesses. Modern technology does the heavy lifting, so it's easy to get things right. PCMag and fit small business have called Gusto the best payroll for small businesses. Gusto saves you time.

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The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 241: Austin Kleon - How To Steal Like An Artist

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