The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 263: Charlie McMahan - How To Build A Tribe From 50 To 5,000

Starting point is 00:00:00 I believe that there has to be a commitment to excellence that is you. You can't fake that. You can't be someone that does not desire excellence in every area of your life. And then, but we're going to make our entity, our organization excellent. I think Aristotle said it is a habit, right? Excellence is a habit. So for me, the commitment to excellence that is dangerous because it easily becomes perfectionism. And the difference between excellence, perfectionism is excellence is expressing my worth

Starting point is 00:00:29 and ennobling others by saying I care. Perfectionism is trying to earn my worth by being perfect. Welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Thanks so much for being here. We are hosting a workshop on developing your own personal excellence as a leader in September. We'd love to have you. Go to Ryanhawk.

Starting point is 00:00:56 dot me for details and availability on our workshop developing your own personal excellence as a leader go to ryanhawk dot me love to have you now on the night's featured leader a mentor mine so when i look up to a great deal charlie mcman came to our office at brixie and mire in Dayton ohio and we recorded this in front of a number of my team members it was so much fun it was great to have him uh charlie is the lead catalyzer at southbrook church since He's helped build it from the ground up when they had just a few people in the audience to now they host more than 5,000 people per weekend. It's incredible. A few of the topics that Charlie and I talked about.

Starting point is 00:01:40 The specific ways to think about and handle stress. And then some failures and success as a husband and a dad. This one got personal and I'm really glad we touched on this. And then finding out that his own dad was a member of the series. CIA and how he felt about that after the fact. Blume away. Then the four parts to writing a great speech and or sermon, really helpful. And then growing a tribe from the ground up.

Starting point is 00:02:09 This is something Charlie has lived for many years and this applies to all aspects of leading and business to go along with what he's done at his church. Ladies and gentlemen, my honor to host Charlie MacMahan. So I was talking to Doug early today about this. And one of the reasons that I really wanted to do this with you is because we have those meetings at the Starbucks. Maybe I shouldn't say your place because people will swarm me, but the place where we go to meet and have our one-on-one chats. And throughout the course of those, I always thought we should have these conversations recorded based upon all of the knowledge that you're sharing with me, the wisdom I'm gaining from you, from everything that you've learned. So that's why I really want to do this.

Starting point is 00:02:56 And I appreciate you joining here. Yeah. And I'm curious, so to get us going, as you know, because I appreciate you being a fan and listener of the show, I love learning from people who have been around fantastic leaders, who have studied leadership, guys like you who exhibit the qualities themselves, people who sustain excellence specifically, as you know I care about that. And I'm curious from your perspective, what are the commonalities you found in those people who have sustained excellence over an extended period of time? Well, I've had some tremendous mentors. You don't last long in leadership without people who are ahead of you. And the two that stand out to me, Bob Russell and Gary Sweeten, Dr. Gary Sweeten, very integrated individuals. They're not disintegrated. In other words, they're not chasing a bunch of different things. They don't have a bunch of different motives. Their motives are consolidated and coalesced toward a particular self-mission. And for me, that has been incredibly useful because when you're in a ministry position you get all these opportunities to do all these different things right you get you get you know hey charlie can we have coffee i've got an opportunity for you and my personal mission statement of i exist to bring heaven to earth by serving my family growing the local church and participating in athletics has been incredibly integrating for me so it keeps me when there's this opportunity to do this money-making

Starting point is 00:04:25 thing, to be honest. I have always felt like that would distract me. And my focus has always been on Dayton, really, since I've been here. Warren Buffett said the difference between people who are great and really great is the ability to say no. I'm feeling like that's

Starting point is 00:04:41 what you mean when you say integrated. Because I would imagine you get bombarded constantly. I know you don't say that. You don't brag about that. And I'm texting you and you always respond and you want to meet. And I'm very appreciative. But I've got to imagine that there's always ideas or things that people want you to be involved with based on your leadership over the years?

Starting point is 00:04:58 Well, there are, and it goes back to, I think we were going to talk a little bit about family, but I chose, my dad was gone 25 days of a month. Really? And I loved him and everything, but I didn't have enough of him. And I was never going to do that. So the result of that was, it was a real easy thing for me to say no to traveling. I just wasn't going to be my focus, my career. I think I had the gifts to be able to do that.

Starting point is 00:05:21 But the combination of that, I wanted to be focused on a local community. in a local church. It happened to end up being Dayton in 1992. And then I don't want to be a dad who's absent. It really integrated my life. What'd your dad do? He was an electronic engineer by trade. Very bizarre.

Starting point is 00:05:39 I thought he was a teacher. Don't let this out of this room. But I found out after I was married, he worked for the CIA. He worked for the government. Are you serious? I'm serious. And I remember when he told me that,

Starting point is 00:05:53 I remember he took, out of my parents' property. He took my wife and I out until like the back 40. And he said, I got to tell you something. And it's still this day. It's bizarre. Yeah. It was the technivate in Florida. I probably shouldn't say the company name. You know, whoops, selling government secrets. He, yeah, it was a covert company. And it was, he was gone. I remember, I remember, that's why he had to take off when the Challenger exploded. Really? He had to take off. Like he, we were literally, I remember, I was on break from, and I was in school then, finished up school and we had to take break.

Starting point is 00:06:28 And he, boom, he took off. Really? And then, you know, he told us that that's why. So he was gone. And then you can imagine an individual like that, my dad was really fascinating. He was half Apache, half Irish, raised in Southwest Texas, graduated from high school at 16. I mean, just tremendous football player. My love of football came from my dad.

Starting point is 00:06:52 who ended up coaching. But I didn't get enough of it. Yeah. I didn't get enough of it. And, I mean, we reconciled that and everything before we died, but it really helped me integrate my life to say, I'm not, that's, and I would do that again, you know? I would, I would do that over again. I wouldn't, I wouldn't do differently.

Starting point is 00:07:12 Are you overly communicative with your kids about that? Do you tell those stories to them and say, this is why I'm choosing? Because you, I mean, you have the talent to be one of the guys. that travels, that's on TV, that you really do. You know that, I think you've probably been told that all the time, but you've decided not to do that. So do you guys have those conscious meetings as a family to say, look, I feel like I probably could, and you could probably make a lot of money. I don't know how that business works, you do, but you've decided to grow it here instead. Is that a family? You know, we never really talked about it much. We, my, like I say, my main mentor,

Starting point is 00:07:46 Bob Russell, who served a church for 40 years in Louisville, Kentucky, he, he conditioned, me on don't spend money on stuff, spend money on events together. And so they just natural, our kids naturally go, like we were just talking earlier, this is our 21st straight year in Hilton Head. And the whole point of, we picked that because we wanted to have a place that our kids basically grew up and now our two grandsons are on the beach with us. And that was like, okay, we messed up in so many ways as parents, like all parents do, we got that one right. Yeah. We got that one right, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Um, One of the fascinating parts about the meetings that you and I have on those Tuesdays at Starbucks is I am fascinated by process and specifically about how people put great things together.

Starting point is 00:08:36 And when I see you perform, and I call it, I think it's a performance. When I see you perform on stage every week, I'm blown away by how you're able to do it and it's different every week. Meaning the message is not like you get up there and just read out of a book. You're, that's a small part of it, but you're doing it. And so I love for you to describe that process of you. How do you put together the sermon, the speech, the performance every single week? Because I remember saying you probably just have a bank of stuff and you just pull it out of the bank, pull it out of a bank. They say it's sermons.com. It is not. It's not sermons. Right. You write them fresh every week, correct? Yeah. Yeah. So I just love for you to expand on that process. Well, it's funny you use the word performance because I look at it that way. The word entertainment means to, you know, to hold attention. So he goes, ah, you know, churches shouldn't entertain. Do you want to hold people's attention? Because that's why Jesus told parables is because it held people's attention, right? And so for me, I have a very distinct process that I use, teaser, tension, truth, take home and together. Can you say that again? Teaser. So the teaser is something to just grab you. So last week,

Starting point is 00:09:47 we're in a series where I'm talking about sex, and usually it's something from the news that I'll use, or my own life, that is funny or engaging. So I use the example of anybody, anybody see any pictures of lava coming down mountains right now, because that's the power of sexual energy. When it goes beyond its boundaries, it can really destroy. Well, that's a different way to look at it, right? That's a teaser. And then the tension is the inductive part of speaking that you have to do today, you have to build the tension so that the listeners say, this is important. If you don't do that real early in the message, people check out. Like literally, people leave. It's just amazing. Like, they'll literally get up and that isn't for me.

Starting point is 00:10:30 And then, you know, the truth is the part of it where you say, okay, for me, in my position, this is what scripture has to say about this issue. The take home is then what's the practical do? What is something you can do or two or three things you can do? And then the together is I always try to end on, isn't this the kind of person we want to be? We? You always try to end on we. Like, we're, don't we want to be. I mean, you remember this, like, you could go back on messages because you're a, I tell people that Ryan and my son Austin are my two biggest fans, you know, but because you analyze that stuff. Right. It almost always ends on, isn't this, it doesn't your heart yearn to be this kind of person? Wouldn't, wouldn't it be amazing? We were all

Starting point is 00:11:10 this way, you know? And so I have a very distinct. process, most preachers were trained to go deductive. And that would be truth, take home, together maybe, but usually truth and take home. You can't do that now. It has to be inductive, where you draw the listener into, they draw their own conclusion, because that's how people really learn is when they learn on their own conclusion. And then once you sense that people go, okay. And now I can sense the lean-in. I can sense when there's the, let my people go, you know, or leaning into, wow, this is really relevant to my life. But the part that is new, so how do you decide, not necessarily the message, because I know

Starting point is 00:11:58 there's themes and you have it planned out for a while in advance, say, okay, like in June, we're doing this, and May, we did this and March, and even probably the next six months or so. but when you weave in current events, current and new research, you are studying the same people that I interview on my podcast. I've heard you say their names, their books, their speeches, you reference that work. That's all, a lot of it's new. So you're bringing in new research with old stories and then finding a way to weave it together. What is that process like? How do you put that together. Well, I told you, we've talked about this. The best description of this is the Medici effect book by Franz Johansson, where he talks about the Renaissance happened because

Starting point is 00:12:45 seemingly disconnected entities were connected. And so he uses the example in that book of scientists who took a certain kind of goat's milk and mixed it basically with a certain kind of spider's web and created this incredible linen, this silk. architects in sub-Saharan Africa learned from ants who created these tunnels that allowed water to flow through the tunnels and then air, and they stayed at constant 72 degrees in sub-Saharan Africa. And architects designed buildings in sub-Saharan Africa without air conditioning. It stayed at 72 degrees. And it was all modeled off ants. So ants and buildings, what do they have in common?

Starting point is 00:13:29 And so that's what I do all the time. So I'm always, like my brain is always, what does this volcano story have to do with sex? Wow, that's not a hard one. Anybody could, you know, see that one, the hot lava kind of thing. Not to embarrass our audience here, but, you know, so I'm always doing that. You know, we did that probably the most impactful series in my 26 years we've ever done. Was that stress series that we did? Yeah, I got more.

Starting point is 00:13:55 Where, you know, the upside of stress book that we've talked about. And one day I saw a quote, the emotions are like waves. You can't choose which ones come, but you can't choose which ones you're going to ride. And it hit me. That's what stress is. It's waves that come your way. And so we did the stress breakers. Like you learned to ride the wave of stress.

Starting point is 00:14:16 And that's what her research showed, that if you choose to embrace stress, it has a positive effect on your body. But if you stand there on the shore of stress and you say, hit me stress, I hate you, it'll hurt you. You'll be digging sand out of your swimsuit here, you know. And so I'm always looking for those intersections. Yeah. How do you, is it just a lot of practice from weaving metaphors and creating them?

Starting point is 00:14:42 Because that's what, to me, I remember stories. And so that's why, like in my own speaking, it's thinking, okay, here's the point we want to get across. What story comes up with that? And my whole, my favorite process of books, too, and speaking is. story, science, story, science, story, story, science. Because I remember the story, and then the science kind of comes along with it. And then when you create metaphors, it really hammers it.

Starting point is 00:15:08 It does, that's right. It validates it. And, you know, for me, it's a habit of looking at life. Like, people say, how long did that take you to put that message together? Oh, about 30 hours in a lifetime. You know, about every one is that way. You know, some of them are less. But that whole sermon series on stress breakers, that was a year.

Starting point is 00:15:26 That was a year in the making. You know, I was, it started a year and a half before that when I read the book and then, you know, just watching my own life. Because I read that because I wanted to see stress differently in my own life, which is, by the way, one of the great intersections. And I know you read Charles Doeig smarter, faster, better. Yeah, talk to them. Yeah. The chapter on the production of Frozen and West Side Story. I have our creative team reading it.

Starting point is 00:15:56 I said, read this book. I got them copies of the book. I said, read this book, but go straight to, I think it's chapter seven. Go straight to chapter seven because Frozen was a very mediocre production until they had the screenwriters intersect that story of the two sisters with their own story. And that's where it really comes to life. So, I mean, you've heard me say, I'm very open about nearly losing our two children. who really, they would tell you they were raised in a very, I'll even say it, idealic situation with friends and family, but depression runs in our family line and

Starting point is 00:16:38 hit both of them. And so I'm open about that. And that intersection, when you take that intersection of that reality, and then you make an application to people's lives, you have listeners. You have people who, and especially in the church because people aren't used to authenticity in the church. They're just, you know. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:16:57 They're just not used to that. What's the challenge of being the son or daughter of somebody like you? You're a well-known, high-performing guy who's grown a church who's had an immense success, right, over the course of your life, both in athletics and then, you know, what you're doing now, obviously over many years. What do you, I'm curious about those conversations. Because, you're open about this. It's, you know, in the last few years, as you know, they've become very open about how. how hard it was. Right.

Starting point is 00:17:26 We thought, we started such a different church that we thought, our kids are going to be different. They're not going to be typical preacher's kids that have all this pressure because nobody's going to know who they are. Well, enough people knew who they were to know that they had pressure on them. And I didn't, I didn't, Sherry and I neither one appreciated the pressure that was on them. But that's true. I have friends whose dads started and built successful businesses and their children experienced, it's called the famous father.

Starting point is 00:17:55 syndrome. Like, I'll never measure up. So they choose to, in psychological terms, differentiate because I can't win that game. I am not going to play a game. I know I can't win, so I'm going to differentiate. Well, Austin and Jordan had to do that. And we've told that story. I don't know if you guys heard her on Mother's Day. It was incredible. It was one of the most impactful weekends we ever had is our daughter told her story of falling into eating disorder. and that is just so rare for people to hear that in a church, right, where there's such a plasticity that can take over. What advice do you get to people now?

Starting point is 00:18:32 Let's say they have kids who are maybe my kids age. And I'm curious to say whatever levels of success their parents have. I talk about this with AJ all the time, right? They're going to Google you and see that you've made $50 million or more in your life. Like, how do we do we do a good job? Yeah, well, the girl, your girls will be proud of you. They will love you. You can tell by the way they look at you they do.

Starting point is 00:18:57 And when you walk into the room, the temperature will go up for them. Yeah. Because you and Miranda are very capable people. Yeah. And that's not bad. Yeah. Kids, we don't need to worry that kids need to be stress-free. Kids need stress just like we do to grow.

Starting point is 00:19:14 The stress-free life is the dying life, actually. Yeah. But what I wish I'd have been aware of is the, is the, the temperature went up in the room significantly for my kids when I walked in. And that's what they were always living within. And so that same heat within me that drove me burned them. I didn't know it. Because you know, like most parenting things, you learn five minutes too late. Do you ever, you know that? You know that? More than five minutes. No, why didn't I know that five minutes ago? But I think that's true for us. That's why now that we've developed that system of play,

Starting point is 00:19:50 personality type, learning style, ability level, and yes factor, and why I'm giving my life to redeem our story to tell student, athletes, artists, and academics that you don't have to cave under the pressure. You don't have to. It doesn't have to destroy you. There's a way for you to perform in a healthy way. And so that's what, that's predominantly what I'm doing right now. Yeah. Another interesting part of your story that I would love to go deeper in it is the fact that I went to Southbrook when it was, there might have been 50 people in the room or less. And it was a different building and it was small and you were the same guy. And now you get how many people a weekend? Oh, you know, we average about 5,000 people.

Starting point is 00:20:39 Right. 5,000. So 50 to 5,000. You are a huge reason. I know you're going to give credit to everybody else, but you're a huge reason for that growth from where you were to where you are now. And there's a lot of listeners who are trying to build their own tribe in some way, shape, or form, whether it's they're an entrepreneur, they're the CEO of a company, they're a mid-level manager, an individual contributor, whatever it is, they're trying to grow their own tribe. When they come to you, what would you say if you looked back and say, you know what, we did this well, we did this well, we did this well.

Starting point is 00:21:11 And if I were you, I would try to do the same thing as far as building a, from basically from nothing or very small to pretty precise. Well, you know, my mentor told me that if you do a circus on Sundays, but you do it excellently, people will come. And we have felt like a circus sometimes, so that fits real well. And I do believe that. I believe that there has to be a commitment to excellence that is you. You can't fake that.

Starting point is 00:21:35 You can't be someone that does not desire excellence in every area of your life. And then, and then, oh, but we're going to make our entity, our organization excellent. I think Aristotle said it is a habit, right? excellence is a habit. So for me, the commitment to excellence that is dangerous because it easily becomes perfectionism. And the difference between excellence, perfectionism is excellence is expressing my worth and ennobling others by saying I care. Perfectionism is trying to earn my worth by being perfect. And trust me, I've gone over that line many times in many ways. Can you expand on that? So perfectionism is, I've got to be perfect.

Starting point is 00:22:16 or I'm not worth anything. And I'm a perfectionist. I'm, you know, it's by nature I am. And so many of us as leaders start out that way. And then, you know, my motto today is maturity is way underrated. Because now I'm actually, I believe, more excellent in what I do because it's not as compulsive. Excellence comes out of a piece.

Starting point is 00:22:44 And it's actually, I don't think they're really. is excellence without a sense of peace because you can create things that are really high functioning, but there's such chaos attached to them that that's not excellent. Because in excellence, the process is as much important as the product. So for me, perfectionism, especially early on, was, I remember days when I would, you know, I don't use a manuscript when I teach, but I do write one out and basically memorize it. And my wife would laugh at me because I couldn't have grammatical errors on the manuscript that nobody would see, including me. Okay, now that's compulsive. That is a little weird. Okay. Oh, we don't lose our audience over that. That's a little weird.

Starting point is 00:23:27 And so that's who I am. And then maturity brings that more into a, and I think it's self-actualization to a great extent. I don't feel the need to prove stuff as much. And so now I'm able to let excellence. Excellence is the right people doing the right things for the right reasons. So that means you. It means you're doing the right things. Know what you're good at, know what you're not good at, for the right reasons. Is it for validation or is it for an expression that ennobles others? And in our case, God, it honors God. And then lastly, you know, the right motivations are not so compulsive, like I say. And one of the best compliments I've gotten recently is my my mentor, my counselor, Dr. Gary Sweeten said,

Starting point is 00:24:16 you're not as compulsive as you used to be, which was an interesting way to say it. He wasn't saying I wasn't compulsive at all. He was saying, you're not as compulsive as you used to be. I'm not what I ought to be, but I'm not what I was. And we committed to excellence. We are far from being what I consider an excellent place. But I think a lot of people look at us and say,

Starting point is 00:24:34 you guys do a lot of things excellently. I would look at it as, we got a long way to go. Were there pivotal moments along the way that you remember in your mind? like that was a big deal or that was a big deal because we went from this pretty small place to now 5,000. Yeah, you know, the cost of growth is yourself, your own time, talents, and treasures. And so the pivotal moments for us is anytime we build a place where more people could sit, that filled up.

Starting point is 00:25:01 So those were all, like, I could just map out 94, 96, 98, 2001, 2002. Those are all years where we exploded in growth. and it was, we created more seats. Yeah. You know, it's all about chairs, cars, and children when it comes to what we do. So do you create places for people to sit? Do you have places for people to park? And do you have a place for their kids.

Starting point is 00:25:22 And if you do those three things and you have a message that is relevant, the birds will come back to the birdhouse where there's fresh food. You know, that's just the way it works. And that's just true today. So those were all really pivotal moments. But we talked about this a while back. I don't know if you remember this, but I'm a huge believer in the constant burden of leadership

Starting point is 00:25:44 is the constant interception of entropy. So for us, our church, we said we're going to reach the person who doesn't like church. So constantly there are people who like church who come to our church and they want the spirit of the place, but they want to change it and make it more churchy. And for me, the hardest thing has been 26, years of standing and saying, nope, throw a rock up and date, and it's going to come down on top

Starting point is 00:26:15 of a church building, first of all. Okay, so there are plenty of those. It's great. We need churches for church people. But ours was going to be for that SOB who thinks there's no hope for him. Yeah. You know. Why did you choose that route? Well, because I didn't like church. So that was a real problem to be a pastor and I like church. So they had to have something for people who don't like church because I didn't really care for it that much. I didn't want to be spending my Sunday morning's thinking, okay, it must be church because this is suffering, you know. I didn't want to do that. I wanted something that, you know, I always said, just throw a Jesus party and people will come.

Starting point is 00:26:49 So really, that's what we do. Like, you know, it's like, it's like a concert. Yeah. People go, this feels like a concert. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. And, you know, that's going back to the entertainment of it, right? We're holding attention. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:27:05 And the interception of the entropy, the constant gravitational full, pull to become like everyone else, every organization that wants to do something unique faces that. You know? Part of the thing that may be scary, you told a story months ago about a bike wreck that could have seriously been the end of you. It was close to it over the handlebars or it almost got hit by a car, whatever happened. Yeah. And I've said this.

Starting point is 00:27:37 And I even said it publicly, maybe at Provoke. a time or two, one of the main reasons, or maybe the main reason we go there is because of you. And if you weren't there, I don't love admitting this, but I'm not sure I would go. That's just how I, that's my truth. And so how, I know that worries you and that concerns you. Yeah, every day. Because, so how do you handle it? I'm thinking of, maybe we compare this.

Starting point is 00:28:04 This could be weird, but let me try something. What if it's like Elon Musk, right? And he actually runs Tesla and SpaceX, and if he is no longer there, that's why he's not going up in his rockets, because if he's not there, it could hurt the mission. There's a little similarity there. How do you handle that? Like, how do you? Well, I've always had this incredible experience of the bright people coming along at the right time. So I don't worry about it too much.

Starting point is 00:28:32 On the other hand, I'm going on 57 years old. I've been doing this a long time. And I don't want to be told, Lee. I don't. I do. One of my fears is you're just not very relevant anymore. You're not very effective. So I do.

Starting point is 00:28:47 I genuinely fear that. It's not right. I just, I bet I do. So we're constantly in process of finding the people that our goal is, hey, when's my hand quitting? Because this guy's good. This gal's good, right? This gal's really good.

Starting point is 00:29:03 And so we're constantly doing that. When you have been at a place a long time, Jim Collins is spot on. You also are in the way. So I'm living in this constant tension. Because I realize very much that when I speak, people come more. I know that. I understand that to some extent.

Starting point is 00:29:22 I would do that too. I also know I'm in the way. Because when you've been someplace a long time, there becomes this unconscious, we won't move ahead of her or ahead of him. And it's really weird. And that's what he termed, the level five leader is key because the charismatic leader gets in the way of the organization eventually. And that's true of us.

Starting point is 00:29:47 And I don't, because, oh, you're just being self-deprecating. No, it's true. I see it. I see where I'm in the way. So I don't want to be done before 10 or 15 years. But I'm willing to be done whenever it feels like I'm not effective anymore. And we have the right people. Yeah, I get the sense from you because I studied, obviously.

Starting point is 00:30:08 obviously Collins' work and others that I still check back and people that are on the team now are listening with my team when I was a mid-level manager at Lexus Nexus. It's been probably five years. And I still check a little bit, how are they doing? How are they percent the plan? Are they still the number one team in the company? Like, it means a lot to me. And the turnover team has been, not completely, but the culture, I want that to be embedded because I think that is so important is that I left it better. And I actually also left it that. it's not better than when I got there, but it's going to be better and better and better

Starting point is 00:30:42 because you got it set up proper. No question. That's a test of your leadership. It's what happens after you leave the room, the building, the organization. That's the test. And I'm curious, so we talk about tribe building. A lot of people want to build tribes.

Starting point is 00:30:52 It's a big deal. It's a buzzword now. If you had to relate that and you're talking to, because you consult with businesses too, I know that's part of your work you do on this. I don't know how you fit all this in, but you do that too. What's the advice do you give to people in the private sector,

Starting point is 00:31:05 not from building a church? but they're saying, we're trying to build our business. We want to grow. What are some of the leadership principles that you instill in them? I know that's a broad term, but just overall. That's a good one, because Max Dupree really got me started on the tribal speak. What are your unique tribal speaks? We have a, we have a gifts assessment that we developed called play. And it's not the best one, but it's ours. You know, we developed it. And we have the five S's, you know, you hear me talk about that all the time, your whole life. If you build your life around, you know, solitude, scripture, service, support, and significant events, you can't help,

Starting point is 00:31:43 but grow as an individual. You can't help. Well, those are ours. I'm sure there are some like them. I'm sure there are more than five, but those are ours. So the tribal speak issue to build a tribe is huge. But tribe is where story and strategy meet. That's where you have a tribe. So leadership is where story and so can we embrace our stories? And is there a strategy that it starts with the mission that we have and we can all agree on now we have people dancing around the fire you know my dad is a native american so i can say that uh now we have a tribe because it is ultimately you said it are stories that connect us and when you put a strategy to that the people go i believe in that it's an accelerator of those stories unifying and that's when you have synergy you know so for us

Starting point is 00:32:35 It's recovery. Our church, if you peel the onion of South Park away, what you'll find in the middle is utter, utter brokenness brought to God. Because the core atom of our church are all of our people who started this that needed recovery. And that's why the church is so irreligious. It's because it's not led by religious people. It's read by broken people. And that's just stories meeting strategy.

Starting point is 00:33:02 That's all the 12 steps are. Our stories meeting strategy. Yeah. Right. I love to. I'm always fascinated. This may be just me, but I was hosting six football coaches, and I asked this question, and I think people thought maybe it was dumb question, but then the answers were really cool.

Starting point is 00:33:20 So I want to ask it to you. I asked them what they do right before game time. Like, what was there a big speech? What are the kids doing the locker room? And they all had these six unique ways. There was one guy hires a DJ, other guys dance. Sometimes the coaches completely leave. And it just, it was really fascinating people in the crowd, like, wow.

Starting point is 00:33:38 What is it like the minute before you go on stage or the 30 seconds before you're about to go on stage? What's going through your mind? What's your thought process? Are you nervous? Or maybe you're not. I'm just fascinated by that. Well, there's a couple things. Used to, it was panic.

Starting point is 00:33:52 I mean, like, it took me 10 years to get over the, what am I doing? 10 years? It was. It was a long time before I didn't have that feeling of what do I think I'm doing as I'm walking up there. You mean like imposter's? that I don't belong here? I think a little bit. You know, I think it was more just, it's just so, it's, leaving is so presumptuous.

Starting point is 00:34:14 Yeah, that's a good point. It is. It just is. And I did come out of a shame-based, a very high-achieving shame-based environment, so there was always that, am I worthy? What do you mean? What do you mean? Well, my dad was very an overcomer, so he overcame so much.

Starting point is 00:34:29 And there was always that in my mind, am I ever going to measure up to that? I mean, he's a 20-year military guy on top of, Did I say secretly worked for the government? I mean, how do you measure up to that? Yeah. And so there was for a long time. Now, the other side of that is I have never stepped behind a microphone, and I didn't believe what I was going to say would save people's lives.

Starting point is 00:34:52 Really? I did. I mean, I've never, you know, there was a period that you may remember when we had six services. People, how do you do that six times? I believe it. Yeah. I mean, I just, I believe. Even though I just, I truly believe every word I'm saying.

Starting point is 00:35:08 Yeah. And so that was some point replaced by that sense of, I can't wait to share this. Really? Whenever you talk about money or sex, people go, oh, man, that's hard to talk about. Well, yeah, it is. I'd rather be talking about the calves than either one. But I think there's truth here that can set people free. So there's always also, no, it may not be as difficult as you think.

Starting point is 00:35:35 is. Yeah. Was there a point, because you've had, I can't even imagine the thousands of hours of reps. And this may be just selfish to me, but was there a point where it was just sheer excitement? Because it sounds like that's where you're at now. But what was it like at the beginning part as you're getting on stage more? How did you become good at it? Did you feel like you had a natural gift for it at the beginning or you really had to work at? Well, both. Okay. Because I, the, I didn't even think about public speaking until a speech class, my third year of college when I had to give a three-minute speech and wondered, what am I going to talk about for three minutes? And now you can't shut me up.

Starting point is 00:36:16 And something happened in that three minutes. Like people leaned in. And so there was that. Fast forward to 2011, I reached what I computed to be the 10,000 hours of preparation and delivery on messages. And I am a big believer in that rule because it, for me, since I hit that 10,000. an hour mark. It's easier to prepare. It's easier to deliver. I used to teach 35, 40 times a year, and I'd be worn out. I've been, I mean, you know, I've taught a lot this year. I just most days

Starting point is 00:36:46 I'm speaking somewhere. I'm not tired. I'm not. I mean, I, so I am a huge believer in, you know, I know you're writing the book and everything. You put that 10,000 hours in. I think there's something to that myself. There was for me. Why don't you have a book? You know, my daughter says it well. She says, Dad, because I do, I have so many book ideas. Well, you've probably written 15 books. Seriously, if you're so, I am such a geek in that I have so many interests. I think I've told you, you know, like I have this whole workshop downstairs where I have

Starting point is 00:37:21 recreated the all NFL decade teams in statues from the 1950s and the 1980s. So it took five years to do that, like down to the detail of the uniforms. I just love that. I love like, if I have time, like today I have about two hours after we're done here before I got something else, I'll run home and I'll go down to my basement and I'll tinker down there. And that's time I should be writing. You do write every week, though. I do, I do. I do. So when I'm done with that, like, I'm not even done with the sermon yet.

Starting point is 00:37:53 I'll finish that tomorrow. But I just, I just want to create. You know, I just want to tinker. Because I do. I am. I'm really, I'm strongly artistic. And I, she said, Dad, you just have too many interests to write. And she meant that as a compliment because there's some truth to that.

Starting point is 00:38:10 But on the other hand, there's so many mediocre Christian books, I don't want to put one more on the shelf. Yeah. So it's got to be something that I feel like. I think the world needs this. I think Russia needs. I mean, it's got to be that, you know, they need this in Poland, too, you know. What does it look like, though? When you write for the week, what is it a...

Starting point is 00:38:29 So it's about 3,500 pages or words of season. Yeah, I do carve out time to write 3,500 pages a week. You know, just in my spare time. I write this dissertation. This is about 3,500 words. And, you know, and then it's on my laptop. I transpose it to my iPad or my iPhone. and that's what I speak from or, you know, or memorize from.

Starting point is 00:38:50 And, you know, I typically don't use notes very much. Part of that is because I have the outline in my head of tease or tension, truth, take home and together. But that's usually done by noon on Friday. Yeah. So that we can get the slides and everything together. And then you deliver it three times. And then deliver it three times.

Starting point is 00:39:09 Are you better the third time than the first time? I think so. Okay. I think so. A lot of people say, oh, I come on Saturday because I know it's going to be best on Saturday. okay yeah go ahead and think that that it's better on Sunday

Starting point is 00:39:21 because I knew I didn't work so well or a lot of times when I'm speaking and you know this you think of something absolutely it wasn't even in the notes

Starting point is 00:39:28 it's like wow that was a really good analogy I'm putting that in for Sunday and yeah I would two out of three weekends I'll say to Will Scott our tech guy

Starting point is 00:39:37 I'll say hey can you post Sunday at 1130 as the video as a video I don't know what I'd do if I only did it one time why what do you mean

Starting point is 00:39:46 because I'm too much of a perfection in recovery to be satisfied with that. I was going to ask you about that. So, like, I know when I get done speaking, I'm trying to change this, but I think about the parts that I messed up. And I've never obviously not messed up. And so how do you, are you hard yourself at the end?

Starting point is 00:40:03 I'm so hard. I don't sleep well on Saturday nights. Really? I don't because I'm cursed with the five-minute curse. You know what that is? I always go five minutes longer than I think I want to, you know? So I'm always five minutes longer than I should be, at least. And then I just always that, oh, I forgot this.

Starting point is 00:40:20 Or I got flipping. And I got glib and I said something. And Sherry said, don't say that tomorrow. Don't say that. Yeah. So she's the, she's the- She's the conscience. She's the angel on this shoulder going, don't-

Starting point is 00:40:29 Do you review like every Saturday night with Sherry and you guys are having dinner? Not my choice sometimes. It just got to have a choice. Hey, Charlie, we have something to talk about. Yeah, I mentioned something last weekend on Saturday night. And she's so, Miranda reminds me a lot of her. What a compliment. Yeah, she does.

Starting point is 00:40:48 But she always waits till Sunday, and we're having our tea on Sunday morning. See, by the way, such and such thing, don't say that again. And then I, you know, because she knows that I am a master at self-condemnation. So I don't need someone to tell me how rotten I am at something. I pretty much will know that. A lot of times you'll start and talk about, like, I remember if it was, I don't remember what series, but that you'd gotten fights at a basketball game or yell at the competition series. Got kicked out. Like, you're, you're really hard on yourself. And is that

Starting point is 00:41:25 partially because, like, I know everything is genuine, but sometimes, like, you're overly critical of yourself. Is that endearing to the crowd? I think it's, I think first it's natural to me. I came out of the womb that way. But then also, psychologically, it's a safety mechanism. You know, I think there's also a part of me that I've grown so much to receive negative feedback, but I'm still not there. Yeah. And sometimes I think, and for us who are out in front, if we self-criticize, we won't get as much criticism. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:42:01 You get in front of it. Yeah. And then I think it does connect with people. You know, it's our, you know, there's always that dynamic when you go in after a round of golf and you say, yeah, I sliced it on 17. Yeah, I sliced it on 17 too, that we bond. bond over that. So we bond over our out of bounds shots. We don't bond over, you know, yeah, I've never had a hole in one, right? We don't bond over that because not very many people

Starting point is 00:42:24 have had it. So there is a, I mean, it's like anything. It's mixed with a genuine sense of, I'm very aware of the inadequacies that are there. Yeah. I'm very, I'm still not totally secure. Yeah. Yeah. It's a mix of those too. Yeah. One of the things you talked about, and I asked you like, why you were meeting with me and I was, because it's grateful for you to best time when we have those one-on-one chats and nobody knows you do it and I know you don't broadcast that and you're and I'm not the only one there's probably like a line of people there's always people before me and I'm sure there are people after me when we go to me yeah but not very many people I got to watch play high school football and it was one of the best high school players I've

Starting point is 00:42:59 ever seen so there's a little bit of a you know the vested interest in that well I'm glad if it could be a way we have a lot of common that's the deal but I know you're really passionate about developing future leaders that seems to be one of your number one goals in life at future feels like to me at this stage is to develop the future leaders. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, the test of leadership is your ability to reproduce yourself in others in the parts that should be reproducible, right? And so I told you, I've, I literally 20 years ago, I remember in 1996 when Ken Blanchard

Starting point is 00:43:36 released his situational leadership square of the S1, S2, S3, S4, and the path from direction to delegation, I literally had that in my wallet for 15 years, wore it out. I mean, it literally wore it out. Now I have it. It's on my phone. I can say, hey, we'll sit down and say, okay, Ryan, where do you feel like you are in this? And it's interesting because of the succession question you asked, that's what I've always been trying to do. Like, if I don't succeed in succession, I will have failed in the very thing I've been trying to do for 26 years now. And that is decentralized. It can't, you can't be a farmer. you've got to be a rancher who raises up other farmers or else that the farm will just never have,

Starting point is 00:44:20 it'll get bigger than the chickens. I mean, that's, it's it's it's all it'll be. So for me, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, rounds of golf together. It's the spending time story meeting strategy. Yeah. You know, I can remember where I was standing in my mentor's kitchen when I was a college junior and he looked at me, he said, I can't wait to see what God will do with your life. You talking to me? And he saw something in me that I didn't see. So I've always just tried to, what is it they don't see in themselves?

Starting point is 00:44:57 Yeah, yeah. You brought up athletics briefly, and we both have that. I know you're a great basketball player. I was just listening to a podcast. Ron Howard, the movie guy actor, a really talented, really well-spoken guy, was talking is Sam Jones on his show. It's a great show. And they were talking about why Wall Street people hire former athletes. And they say, oh, probably because they're competitive and they win. And he said, no, no, no, that's not why we like to hire athletes. We like to hire athletes because they lose so

Starting point is 00:45:28 much. And they have to respond. And you have that in your background. I have in a background and more. It really made me think. And I said, that's a great point. There's so many moments when you lose daily practice. Obviously, the games. It's a public. And so you've got, how has that impacted you as well as the leaders you worked with when it comes to the fact that you've lost, right? You've lost in athletics and that's probably made you better at what you do day to day. There's, there, that is one of the most true statements ever made about leadership. Yeah. Because first of all, I lose every day. Like every day, there's something that doesn't turn out the way you want it to. It doesn't get the response you

Starting point is 00:46:10 want. And I don't, I was born without rearview mirrors, so I can't, I don't, I don't, I don't look backwards, but I also don't see myself very well, very accurately. You, so you, wait, hold on. So are you not, you feel like you're not good at reflecting on? I'm not, I'm just not good at, I'm just not good at, I'm certainly not good at having an accurate understanding of myself. Really? I'm not. I need people around me. So for like, so you say, you know, when you, I believe you in, and I see the results of that I could have been. and, you know, a more, I could have been a popular speaker, let's say. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:46:46 When I'm doing it, it feels that way. When I watch myself do it, which I have to do every week to evaluate, oh, that's not very good. Really? Yeah, I look at it and I go, wait a minute, I felt good when I was doing it. But it, yeah, so it's just strange to me. That surprised me a little bit. Just because, like, I noticed I study the speaking part of what you do too.

Starting point is 00:47:08 Like, I go to be entertained for that as well. and every once in a while, like, you miss a tiny word. But that's about it. I mean, every once in a while. So I'm just wondering if you're watching. I think it goes back to that just self-criticism. You know, I just don't see myself. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:47:21 I just don't see myself accurately. Yeah. But the, the, you know, I was, I was a world-class shooter. I mean, when I played collegially, I mean, I shot 96% from the free throw line. Wow. You know, it's the same length as it is in the NBA and everything. You know, so I was, I was a, and I had tremendous range. before the three-point play.

Starting point is 00:47:41 So when I played, I played small college basketball and I had a, I had never not shot double figures in a game ever in my career until the national cinema finals, my senior year, and I was held to six points.

Starting point is 00:47:57 And a guy, a minister that I, a leader that I respected greatly, came up to me after the game and he goes, he goes, I came from California to see you play. And I don't know why I came. And that, you know, he didn't mean it cruelly.

Starting point is 00:48:14 He just, I think it was, but. You know, but, you know, you're saying, you know, and I, you know, it was such a gift because it was just level set. You can score double figures in 102 straight games, and you mess up once. You're going to disappoint people. Yeah. You mean, we won the game. I came back to the next night and had a great game in the national final.

Starting point is 00:48:38 We won the national championship. thank God for that. But of all the things I experienced, and the idea of I was a national player of the year, I was an All-American at that level, that didn't help me in leadership as much as Dick Alexander's saying to me, I don't know why I came all the way from California.

Starting point is 00:48:58 You remember, always. Yeah, no matter what you do. Yeah, I mean, I vividly remember like throwing the pass against Cincinnati Outer, it got tipped. I was at that game. You were you right? I was at that game.

Starting point is 00:49:08 Yeah, I mean, and I feel it getting. tipped and then the guy having an easy catch and returning it for a touchdown and winning the game. And there was a lot of great plays that season, but I will never forget that play and remember like, you know, and like slowly kind of jogging as the guy is running in the end zone thinking, we just lost. And we're the best team in the state and we just lost because of that play. And it was, it was, it's just a, it's a good thing to go through. I think just like I've said this before, losing the battle in college to Ben Rothersberger to be the starting quarterback was a great, great thing to go through because it was high stress for two years, incredible competition

Starting point is 00:49:45 in many even weird ways with a different type of a person who was just insanely talented. And you're like, I'm going to do everything I can, everything, outwork him, do whatever. And the coach says, he's better than you. You're not good enough. He's better than you. And you have to say, he's right. Now, you lost out to a Hall of Famer. You do understand, right?

Starting point is 00:50:05 I mean, that's made the story. It's made the story a little better, obviously. But I mean, yeah. And I never lost out to a hall of favor. But it's good, though. It's good. Yeah, it is. 19, 20, 21 to go through those types of things.

Starting point is 00:50:18 It really is. Because I haven't really been in a situation in that stressful since. Where it's still a first world problem, if you think about it. It is. But it's reality to character formation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's why, you know, grid is, it is the only talent. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:50:36 I remember going to the back to the hotel that night. Yeah. And I remember having a moment of, is this who I am? Yeah. You know, it was gut check time. You said it. Am I going to get back up? Yep.

Starting point is 00:50:49 Yep. Charlie, this is so good. I could go for hours, but for the listeners, we are doing this in the office of Bricksey and Meyer. We have some great team members here with us. I want to see if anybody had a question or two for Charlie to see if you, and somebody's going to have to be the courageous one to go first. Greg is not in here. This is why God put extroverts into the.

Starting point is 00:51:08 the world. I think I see the leader of the firm is in the corner. Dog or Terry. I'll repeat it. So I can. Biggest challenge today. Figuring out a way to build a succession plan and not leaving too soon. That's the biggest challenge I face.

Starting point is 00:51:37 I don't want to leave Southbrook high and dry, but I don't want to hang around too long. and so I live in that tension every day. And then the bigger, I'll be candid, is the ministry that I, the leadership I'm in, the ministry position is a character profession. One of my mentors has been released at his church after almost 40 years because of being accused of sexual misconduct.

Starting point is 00:52:05 Wow. And that has rocked me. And it's just, I do not ever want to go out that way. I mean, that is, you know, that is my main goal is to be faithful to Sherry and faithful to the church and faithful to my community. And as small a world as I live in, I realize that if I were to mess up, it would send shrapnel out that would affect a lot of people that I care about. And so that's a big challenge, is just making sure leadership starts with self-leadership. The most important person I lead is myself, taking care of myself. That means spending time in the basement making football players.

Starting point is 00:52:42 That's what that means. your hobby. You know, hobbies. Austin Cleon told me we all need hobbies. We do. You don't have to go sell it or do it, but we need a little hobbies. And I could make, like, I made the top 100 Cleveland Browns of all time. No jokes here, okay?

Starting point is 00:52:56 And I could sell that. Autogram. Baker Mayfield, I hope. I hope so. But I could sell that for thousands of dollars. It's really good. Yeah. I don't, I just want something that's mine.

Starting point is 00:53:09 Nobody evaluates it. I go down to the basement and I look at it go, that's really good. You know, it is. You need a hobby that no one's evaluating, no one's putting a price tag on it. Yeah, yeah. Any other questions, thoughts? You're smart. Oh, go ahead.

Starting point is 00:53:42 Yeah. So how does it take a toll on you when you can't please everybody? That's a question. Leadership is the art of disappointing people at a rate they can handle. It is. And most of us leaders are codependent when we go into it. you will either die or heal of your codependency. Because you cannot sustain trying to please people.

Starting point is 00:54:05 And trust me, I've tried. And goes back Ryan to that question about saying no, every day I disappoint people. Every day I disappoint people. And I'm intuitive, so I read it. If people are mad at God and God has disappointed them, they're mad at me. So they project that.

Starting point is 00:54:24 It's that Imago Deas. They project that. So, you know, I mean, this is the first world. problem for sure but as a person who wants to be liked everybody does you just you better learn to manage that and heal from that need to please people or you are going to get fried if you try to please everybody you're you're going to end up probably pleasing nobody yeah that's where your mission comes into play as a person as an organization because we say this is our eye on the ball yeah yeah yeah any other yeah yeah so the questions are on the on the employees

Starting point is 00:55:17 importance of continued growth, having an apprentice in your process. So what we talked about Tuesday was the P.B&J thing that I've come up with. You know, we all grew up on peanut butter and jelly. This is in a scriptural way, Paul Barnabas and Jr. It's Timothy, but it doesn't fit with PB&J if you say Timothy. PB&T just doesn't roll off the tongue like PB&J. And you've got to have people who are Paul. They're ahead of you and they stretch you.

Starting point is 00:55:43 They challenge you. don't, you know, we were talking about this with Coach Ollery. There were times where you didn't like him. Of course, yeah. Right? Yeah. But then you need Barnabuses. These are people who are alongside you.

Starting point is 00:55:55 They're your peers. And we're in this together. And we consolidate around our shared stories. But we also grow most when we have our juniors, the people that we're pouring into. Nobody grows like the teacher. Nobody grows like the leader. Yeah. And so, you know, people like that.

Starting point is 00:56:14 keep you on your toes because when you have that 360 degree influence around you, you can't fake it. You can't fake it. Somebody is going to spot you if you're living a disintegrated life. And so I've always had the blessing of tons of Barnabuses but to just enough Paul's and then, of course, more Timothy's than probably I need. And that keeps me growing. The one thing about today is if you don't keep growing, you're going to be irrelevant in about three years because the world is changing so fast.

Starting point is 00:56:51 I am stunned by how quickly it's shame. Mark talked about that in the podcast recently, Mark Devine, that just a quick change, if you don't keep growing, sayonara. One of the greatest ways I found to really understand your own beliefs is to teach. And that's why I bring it up, Doug and I, I have done a few leadership circles where with his groups that are incredible, I've

Starting point is 00:57:17 doing with my own groups too, where I ask them for a specific topic that they feel like they're either have mastered or have come close to mastery, that they would be willing to create a presentation and give a speech. The presentation doesn't matter. It's just the fact that they get up and they can do it because if anything else, that forces you to really understand whatever. I don't even care about the topic. But when we've gone through that exercise and people really think it could be putting together the Cleveland Browns or whatever it is for anybody. But it really hammers at home. And I think the Philadelphia 76ers did that this year where they had each individual player, they said, look, you have to give a presentation. It's like, I think it was 10, 15

Starting point is 00:57:58 minutes. And it can be on anything you want, but you have to be a teacher for those 10 or 15 minutes, whether your hometown or somebody did it about tacos. I mean, anything you want. But it's just the fact of the practice of being a teacher is when you really really. It is writing makes a person exact. Yep. So when you write it and you have to speak it, you, you know, if it's hazy in the podium, it's going to be foggy in the chair. You know? So you got to be specific.

Starting point is 00:58:25 You can't be hazy. Charlie, again, I could go forever, but I appreciate this. One more thing. So I used to ask it all the time, but I know you and I have talked about it. When you heard for the first time the phrase learning leader, what did that mean to, you or what does that mean to you and the fact of when you first heard about the show? Two things. One is there is no other kind. Yep. And secondly, it also makes me reflect on our staff, they would laugh at that question because they've heard me say a thousand times,

Starting point is 00:58:58 if you don't read, you can't lead. And then they're inevitably one of the staff who has a reading disorder or, you know, they like they don't read real well. They'll say, well, but I'm not a good reader. If you can't listen, you can't lead. Then just get audible and listen. Because because there is no other leader than the learning leader and growing. And, you know, we share, you and I can talk about the books we read. You know, I mean, I was talking about story. Amy Cuddy's book, Presence, is one of the most brilliant demonstrations of embracing your story. That's where your power, that's where your connection is going to happen.

Starting point is 00:59:31 Do you think I read that book and didn't have any relevance to what I do? Oh, my gosh, she was so good. So I know you've read her stuff. And my mentor says, psychology taught me about the scriptures taught me about psychology he's a psychologist and it's true about reading those books there's just truth there

Starting point is 00:59:49 yeah it's awesome well thank you so much for uh for being here thanks everyone here uh this is really cool to have like an audience here uh it's been so much fun thank you so much man all right yep thanks guys thanks guys thank you thank you man it's good it's fun fun to talk this is what

Starting point is 01:00:08 Starbucks Kroger on 40 is like. Yeah. That was so much fun to host Charlie and our offices at Bricksey and Meyer. I love that a number of my team members were able to watch us record. This one also will be released on YouTube.

Starting point is 01:00:28 We did a really cool three camera shoot. So they'll be properly edited and put up in honor of Charlie. He's a great guy. I look up to him so much. If you enjoyed it, I would greatly appreciate it. If you would write to review, subscribe to the show, and rate it in iTunes, Apple Podcasts. That's write a review.

Starting point is 01:00:48 Subscribe and rate it. Hopefully, five stars. And iTunes Apple Podcasts really helps spread the message all over the world. Once again, thank you so much for your support and giving me the opportunity to do what I love every single day. It's because of you. Your support and your kind words means a lot to me. All right. I love this.

Starting point is 01:01:08 Thank you so much. See you next week. Can't wait.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 263: Charlie McMahan - How To Build A Tribe From 50 To 5,000

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