The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 270 - Sam Jones - A Comfortable Life Is Overrated

Episode Date: August 12, 2018

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk Episode #270 - Sam Jones: A Comfortable Life Is Overrated Sam Jones is an acclaimed photographer and director whose seminal portraits of President Obama, Sandra Bullock, George Clooney, Bob Dylan, Kristin Stewart, Robert Downey Jr, Amy Adams, Jack Nicholson, and many others have appeared on the covers of Vanity Fair, Rolling Stone, Esquire, GQ, Time, Entertainment Weekly and Men's Journal. In 2013 he launched Off Camera with Sam Jones on Directv's Audience Network. Off Camera is an hour long show created out of his passion for long form conversational interviews.  Show Notes: Commonalities of sustaining excellence: "They did not have a back up plan.  They had a desire to do what they loved even if it wasn't the obvious choice." "A comfortable life is overrated." -- "I've always followed the things that excited me most." "It almost feels like a lie when I'm doing something that doesn't excite me." "I connect with this idea of listening to your gut feeling." For artists, the goal is to make art "No one knows you like you know you.  There is no set path for how things get done." A life well lived = "Did I live up to my full potential?" "I've always been curious about the questions to ask that open people up." Sam started doing an interview show on camera when he was 14 years old "I think my own theories through voicing my thoughts." "Conversations are how I learn things... I've always been very curious." Rose Byrne - "It's good to look back and see where you've come from." The Jeff Daniels interview (one of my personal favorites) As an interviewer, the importance of seeing their body language, how they react, "the look in their eye." The interview preparation process Identify possible themes of the conversation As a communicator and conversationalist -- Think about how to do something better.  A form of scrutiny.  This leads to growth. Two things a guest needs to have Be willing Be able Is the guest open, honest, and self aware?  They need to be... The guest needs to be able to tell a good narrative "If you're going to find something true and authentic, you have to go down a path." Goal = Make best environment for the human being to come out." "I really want to know who this person is." How to define success? "They keep letting us make more." Interviewers Sam looks up to: David Letterman -- He didn't adhere to strict rules.  You shouldn't have to... Terry Gross -- NPR Howard Stern -- Consistently done it well over time Sam's upbringing: "I didn't fit in at school." "I always questioned social norms" -- "Why does this have to be this way?" How to decide where to start an interview? "That's the hardest part." -- "The best conversations are when your open to let it go anywhere." Dream guests? -- Paul McCartney, Cameron Crowe How to create an environment for people to articulate insecurity... Why joining The Learning Leader Circle is a good idea Use the "Get To Know You Document" "I've always questioned social norms.  Why does it have to be this way?" Social Media: Follow Sam on Twitter:  @samjones Watch Off Camera With Sam Jones Connect with me on LinkedIn Join our Facebook Group: The Learning Leader Community To Follow Me on Twitter: @RyanHawk12 More Learning: Episode 078: Kat Cole – From Hooters Waitress To President of Cinnabon Episode 216: Jim Collins -- How To Go From Good To Great Episode 200: Keith Hawk & AJ Hawk -- Showing Up, Doing The Work, Earning Trust, Helping Others, Winning The Super Bowl, Celebrating #200 Episode 234: Jocko Willink -- Why Discipline Equals Freedom  

No one knows you like you know you. And we can listen to all the advice in the world or look at the example of everyone else and how they've done it. But one of the things I've learned on this show is that there is no set path for how things get done. I've talked to people that knew what they wanted to do at age five. And I talked to people that didn't even know they wanted to be an actor until they were 30. Welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Thanks so much for being here.

It is Mindful Monday, text learners to 4. 4-4-2-2-2 in order to join thousands of other fellow learning leaders from all over the world. Text learners to 4-4-2-2-2. Now, on to tonight's featured leader. It's with acclaimed photographer Sam Jones, his seminal portraits of President Obama, Sandra Bullock, George Clooney, Bob Dylan, Kristen Stewart, Robert Downey, Amy Adams, Jack Nicholson, and many others have appeared in the covers of Vanity Fair, Rolling Stone, Esquire, GQ, Time.

Entertainment Weekly and Men's Journal. Sam is also the host of one of my favorite shows. It's called Off Camera with Sam Jones on DirecTV's audience network. Off camera is an hour-long show created out of Sam's passion for long-form conversational interviews. Not surprising why I may like this style. And Sam is by far one of my favorite interviewers. Some of the people that have been on his show, Robert Downey Jr., Sarah Silverman,

Matt Damon, Will Ferrell, Jeff Daniels, among many other incredible artists. A few of the topics that Sam and I got into. His process for having fascinating one-on-one conversations and how you can apply this to your life. And then Sam explains why a comfortable life is overrated. The difference between the people who take action towards their dream job and those who don't. And how you can do this. Ladies and gentlemen, this one's so good.

It's Sam Jones. All right, Sam, thank you so much for joining me here on The Learning Leader Show. Welcome. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm curious. So you've interviewed many people throughout the course of your time on off camera, both a great TV show as well as a great podcast.

I am fascinated in uncovering the commonalities among people who have sustained excellence. And the majority, if not all the people that you speak with, are those who sustain excellence. What have you found to be some of the commonalities among those people? Well, I think one of the themes that comes up a lot on the show is that the people I speak to seem to have not had a backup plan. And I think that one of the things that ties a lot of artists together is the desire to do what they love to do. regardless of whether it's the safe choice or the realistic choice or even the obvious choice. And I'm always impressed when I asked that question and the guest has sort of a blank look on their face. Like they'd never even really considered what they would do if it didn't work out.

So I think that especially with artists and creatives, a lot of the time, it seems like it seems like It was not even a choice. It was just something that they were going to do, whether or not they went to the poor house or were successful. I heard you say that a comfortable life is overrated. How have you implemented that into your life? Well, you know, I think I feel a bit of a kinship with some of the people I talk to in terms of I've always kind of followed the things that excited me. And anytime something feels too much like work to me,

and I don't mean work like, you know, hard work, because I know how to do that, but in terms of not feeling fulfilling or creative, or like it almost feels like a lie when I'm doing something that doesn't fit with me, and there's been times when I have directed things or done work that was, you know, the choice was for a paycheck or whatever. And that's totally part of the deal.

But when I'm really excited, I can tell because I wake up in the morning wanting to do that thing and it goes all day. And so I think, I think for me, I connect with this idea of sort of, trying to listen to your gut feeling and what it wants to do and then hopefully the work and the comfort and everything will follow but that's not the goal i think that's the big difference is the goal often of an entrepreneur or a business person or someone goes to who goes and gets their MBA or whatever the goal is to make money and i think for artists the goal is to make art or the goal is to express yourself and get in that zone where you feel like the hours are flying by and

that to me is a better way to live and that's a better feeling than comfort. So I guess that's all that means. You know? I'm fascinated by your process for interviewing people. But before I get to that, there are a number of people listening from all over the world who have a creative side or have a side hustle but currently work within a big company because they have a spouse, three kids, a mortgage, two car payments, you know the drill. And they're saying, Sam, that sounds great.

And I would love to go more towards that creative side or maybe even do my side hustle full time because that's what I really love. But I'm also realistic and I have bills to pay. What advice do you give to that exact person? Well, I think that brings up a question of degrees because, you know, for everybody that's figuring out a way to make it with their mortgage and their wife and their three kids, they can certainly find an example of someone above them making more money who is probably more unhappy. And they can find an example of someone a lot below their income level who is a lot happier. So I think when I think of that question, I think, you know, it's an inner dialogue that you have to have. And who's to say that that route of deciding, it's a question of degrees. Let me say that a better way.

If you're sitting there going, okay, I've got three kids and a wife, so I cannot follow my dream. Well, maybe you're cutting off the biggest, you know, future. happiness or or comfort or however you want to say it of all by underestimating yourself and maybe you're really realistic and and you know in your heart that that that you're not comfortable enough to be confident enough to to you know whatever whatever the magic formula is to make that work you don't believe in in your ability enough to do it so whenever those things come up I think it's such a personal decision you know no one knows you like like you know you.

And we can listen to all the advice in the world or look at the example of everyone else and how they've done it. But one of the things I've learned on this show is that there is no set path for how things get done. I've talked to people that knew what they wanted to do at age five, and I talked to people that didn't even know they wanted to be an actor until they were 30,

or they didn't even know they had any ability. And I think that, I think one of the traps that people can fall into, is looking at someone else's story or someone else's, the picture they present to the world and assume that they know what's going on, you know, under the hood. And we've got letters on this show. We have this great community of listeners that will write letters to me.

And I always get a little tinge of fear when I read a letter that says, hey, after listening to your podcast for two years or after watching your television show for two years, I am quitting my job as a patent attorney and I am going back to school to study acting. You know, and we've had those letters. And I always think, you know, for a minute, it scares me a little bit because obviously those are big swings. That's a big risk to take. but in the end

that's what life is made of and I think those people are incredibly brave and I think people figure out how to make things work you know and I think I always ask the question

when you get past a certain thing so say you're too old to play basketball anymore or your kids have gone off to college and you're sitting there reflecting on your life do you want to ask the question and, you know, was, you know, did I live to my full potential or could I have done that if I had really tried?

And I think if you don't know the answer to that, then that's not a life well lived. So, you know, it's to get back to your original question, I think it's really a matter of knowing yourself and deciding whether that risk is worth it. And, you know, someone said something on the show recently, and I forget who it was, but it was great. It was so obvious it was great. He said, no one knows what's going to happen. You know, so that person's sitting there going, I have three kids and a mortgage and it doesn't make any sense for me to follow my creativity. I go, okay, well, maybe that's absolutely true and totally valid for you, but also no one knows what's going to happen. You may wake up tomorrow and go to work and find out your company's been sold to a bigger company and they're consolidating, your job's gone. So who knows, you know? And that's why the, I don't know, the creative path is such a personal one. And for as many success stories is there are as many different ways to get there. How did you, you have such a unique career and background when it comes to filmmaking, photography,

and in my personal favorite part of your work is off camera. And like I said, I listen to both the podcasts and I watch the show on TV. And I've watched it for years. And that's why this one was obviously really looking forward to talking to you because I study. I'm sure I know you do as well. I've heard you say this. But I study great interviewers. As someone who interviews people and have now for four years where we're going to record

and release these to the world, you want to continue to improve and get better. And so that's why you're someone I've certainly looked up to and I enjoy the manner in which you, I think, practice your craft. But how did it get to this point? How did you create this life for yourself, this creative path where you want from, like I said, photography and filmmaking and now an incredible interview show that's both on TV and a really great podcast? Well, I appreciate that. That's very nice you to say. And I think that, I, Again, you can look at the outside and look at the work. But to be the person inside doing it for this many years,

I think that if I have any advantage, it's that I've been curious about the right questions that opened people up. Ever since I was a little kid, I have the first video camera that showed up on our block when I was 14. somewhere in a landfill, there's a tape of me doing a pretend interview show, just to amuse myself and my friends. Now, I never had the connections or ambition or knowledge to know that at that age I could, you know, make it into a career. I just honestly thought it was fun. And I was always holding fake microphones up to my parents' faces and asking them questions and just to amuse myself.

And I think that I've always loved conversation. And I don't think internally a lot. I think that I develop my own theories and my own conclusions about things by voicing my thoughts. And that's how I make them clear. So conversation to me has always been a tool to learn things. And when I started making documentary projects, I had to quickly figure out how to interview. and I realized then that, you know, the simplest way to do it is just to make a list in your head of what you're most curious about and kind of rank that list. Like, what do I most want to know from this person?

And you connect more with some people than others, but I found that just by being naturally curious and not worrying too much about what other people might want to hear or what, you know, or what that. that person's talked about before or what stories were interesting in the past that I could pull up to ensure the success of my conversation. I don't worry about any of that stuff. I just try to think, what am I the most curious about? And so long, long, long before I started off camera, I was doing interviews in my documentaries and also, you know, commercials where they had a docu approach and things like that. So I think there's a lot of practice that no one ever saw that I was able to do.

And also being somebody that has made a living as an artist as a photographer and a director for a long time, I've had to be in a lot of rooms pitching and trying to convince whoever that I'm the best person for them to give X amount of dollars to to go make a creative project. And I think that that kind of skill is invaluable for what I'm doing now, which is to comfortably sit in a room and really listen and, you know, find the real flashpoint of the conversation or the real meat of the conversation. And all those things, I think, have contributed to this. And I still feel like I am, you know, I am just getting started in terms of we do one show a week. So, you know, in a couple months, the late-night hosts have done my whole year. And or less, maybe, you know, maybe three weeks they've done my whole year. So I do believe in the more you do it, the more natural it becomes.

And the more it just becomes part of you. And so, you know, that's something I think of all the time. When I listen to some of the old off-camera, I can see the growth. We had, recently we had Rose Byrne on our show, and she pointed out that sometimes it's really good to look back and see where you've come from. And, you know, when you're having a period where you're not feeling so creative or so good about yourself, you know, there's growth that's happening all the time. And one of the interesting things about this medium is that we're documenting all of it. And that's the same thing, I think, for an actor. You can go back and look at your early work and go, oh, yeah, I actually have grown.

I do know what I'm doing. Or I do know, you know, I have expanded my abilities. And so, yeah, I feel like I'm on this journey. And I'm hopefully still learning about it and getting better. And I want to keep doing it. I really want to learn about your prep process. And I know that's a common question that's asked of you when you do the call-in show. But the reason why is because I took a part of it was a very small part of an episode that I shared with my community here, the people who follow my show on my email list.

And so you were interviewing Jeff Daniels. And I love Jeff Daniels. As an artist, the newsroom is one of my all-time favorite TV shows. I wish it was still around. He's obviously great and dumb, dumber and other things too. but you, and I wonder if you prep this or if it just came to mind, but you said to him, your pragmatism is uncommon in your profession. And this elicited the response from him that he said, and I think you got this advice from

somebody else. This is why he's pragmatic about what he does. He said, you know that limo you're sitting in. It's rented. Somebody else will be sitting in it tomorrow. Don't ever forget that. Appreciate what you have. Be grateful for what you have.

The reason I share this is because I think your prep or at least your knowledge to say something like that, which I think the look in his eye made him, I think, create or at least respond with a piece of advice that is very helpful and useful and interesting for anybody watching or listening. How did you get ready for that specific moment? Well, I appreciate that. That was one of my favorite episodes. And before I answer that, I just want to, I want to remark about something you said. there in the question which you said the look in his eye and I do want to say that as much as I love that people love our podcast and listen to it if they haven't seen the television show it is

a whole different experience because as humans we pick up on so many more visual cues than we're aware of and and it it sounds almost like you're responding as much to seeing him visually as his answer and and one of the things that I discovered when we started off camera was by emptying out the background and taking color out of it and having this really high definition black and white portrait of somebody with no competing visual information you go right inside their brain and I feel like there's there's over over half the information is not translating and I'm glad I love that the podcast translate and people

people get a lot from it but the the television show the experience of that for me to edit them and to watch them back before we send them off to the network that experience is always the most riveting for me so i'm glad you said that you saw a look in jeff's eyes and to answer your other question um you know i don't recall exactly if that question came from prep or just in the room but one thing I try to do is I try to identify some possible themes that might show up in the conversation based on what I read about somebody. And my prep has sort of changed over the years, but one of the things that stayed consistent is trying to get a sense of who this person is without spoiling too much of, you know, the way they are in interviews. I think early on I stopped listening to other podcasts that guests have appeared on or other television shows other than a cursory glance at, you know, to try to pick up a little information. But I think what I try to do is extrapolate based on what comes up in these people's lives and the work they've chosen and admittedly making some leaps in logic that,

may or may not pan out, but again, following my curiosity of, okay, in Jeff Daniels' case, if he moved back to Michigan and he moved at the height of his success, that just by comparison is not what actors do. And there's got to be something there that I know he's mentioned and I know it's been a theme before in other conversations, but maybe not on the level of comparing himself to his profession. I think it's easy in a magazine story to say, oh, look at folks see Jeff Daniels, who moves off to Michigan and he has it all and he can act and he can.

But I think in a conversation, the difference is we get to see unfolding in real time someone explaining their choices and their decisions. And then if I can follow along and lead at the same time, that conversation a little bit, then I can somehow come occasionally maybe to something like what you said, which, you know, his pragmatism is uncommon in his profession. And those things, I think that's an example of how the best questions come out of the, you know,

that sort of alchemy of not planning everything out, but having. some curiosity about this person that you've developed. And then when they start talking, if you're listening carefully enough, you can sort of make connections in the room and then build on those connections. I think when the shows are really good, you know, something will come up early in the show that gains greater resonance later in the conversation. I think it's, too, as we do this more, you build up so many repetition, so much general sense of knowledge across the course of all the incredible people that you meet that you find parallels.

Or maybe you picked up something. You already mentioned something from Rose Byrne. And Jeff Dan, you've mentioned already multiple parts, little bits and pieces you've learned from a number of people that just makes you better as a conversationalist, as a communicator. And I'm curious when maybe it's your wife. For me, it is my wife. When she says, if you compare how you are as a conversationalist. today from four years ago, you wouldn't even recognize you, you wouldn't even recognize you.

You really wouldn't. And I take that as a compliment. I mean, other than maybe I just started to be very bad and now I'm just a little bit better. But that's what she said. Do you have people close to you or who are those people? Is it family that say, Sam, since you've been having these conversations with these people who have sustained excellence, who are interesting, who are thoughtful, they see the growth in you as a communicator. and somebody who's a conversationalist. You know, I don't personally spend a ton of time talking about that.

I think that in the office, my closest confidon is my business partner in this whole operation. And he and I will, you know, our conversations will also, well, let me say it a different way. our conversations will often be about how we could have done something better or, you know, did I pick up on something? You know, one of the things about making the TV show is it forces you to go back and really look at the conversation. And when you do that, you know, there are times when I'm talking to myself on the screen going, why didn't you ask? Like, there was an obvious question there that was laid in my lap and I was too busy thinking about, you know, my larger theme or what I needed to ask next or whatever it was to, to hear it in the room. And, and I would say that process of scrutiny is, it is the form of what you're talking

about with your wife. I think that by the time we finished sort of scrutinizing an episode like that, it sort of becomes clear that there's, that there's growth. You know, like, I'm less mad at myself now than I used to be. opportunities. And I'm also more willing to understand that everybody's different and you're going to connect with some people more than others. But when we really hit on a good one, it's more about understanding that it's good because the guest was great. Number one, you know, we kind of say there's two things. They have to be willing and they have to be able. and so they have to be willing to come in and share and talk and be open and honest and self-aware

and all those things. And then they have to have the ability to be able to tell a good narrative. And by that I don't mean they have to be some expert storyteller, but some people don't have the ability as much as they're willing to organize their thoughts and do a narrative that can be followed and enjoyed as well as others. And when you have both of those things present in the same conversation, then the only factor left is my ability to take it where it can go. And one of the other things about off camera is that we don't have this great desire to entertain above all else. And what I mean by that is that if you're going to find something authentic and interesting and true to that person, sometimes you're going to have to have to.

to be willing to go down a path that isn't immediately gratifying in terms of exciting banter. And that's sort of the difference that we have as a television show versus most of the other shows that do this, is that there's not many shows that are this long on television that don't have commercials and that aren't doing any sketches or gags and we don't have a live audience. So, you know, I would imagine the pressure on somebody if you had a live audience. If the audience is sitting dead quiet for 10 minutes, that's not going to feel great in a room with an audience. But it's exactly the effect we want on our eventual television audience is that they're riveted to the screen and they're not saying a word because they're listening. So I guess what I'm saying is that the, you know, the goal of the show and of me personally is to, you know, is to keep trying to make the best environment for a human being to come out and stay out and stay in the room with me.

And, you know, in other words, I'm not trying to help this person's brand or persona or be a stray man so they can be funny. I really want to know who this person really is. And when that happens, I think it makes through a very interesting television show that you don't really find in another venue. How do you, I agree. How do you measure success? Well, on this show specifically or in my life?

Both. On the show specifically, I think the easiest measurement is they keep letting us make more. Yeah. I mean, that's sort of the pedantic answer, but it's more true than anything else. I feel very lucky that we get to do this. And when we get an offer of a person that we would have wanted to have on the show anyway,

that's sort of one measure that it's getting to the right crowd and the right, you know, the people that I find interesting are wanting to be on the show. That's one huge measure of success. Getting more episodes every year is another measure. and I think still getting up in the morning and wanting to do it is a way that I measure the success too. Who are some of, you mentioned briefly, you did your own almost Letterman-type show when you were 14. So I imagine he's one, but who are some of the people that you look up to as other current interviewers or even from the past as well? Well, yeah, Letterman came along at the right time for me.

Just when I needed a self-deprecating, cynical, creative, anti-establishment, almost punk rock hero, David Letterman was right there in my wheelhouse. He had a morning show when I was in high school and my first year in college. I didn't have a television, but the guy next door did in my dorm.

And we got to watch Letterman every night. And it was, it was, you know, there was just this irreverence that really spoke to my personality. I definitely grew up as a prankster kid that I think, I think in a scientific experimental way, I never understood why people held themselves to set strict rules of behavioral and code and you only say certain things at parties or you only, you know, I was always sort of in my brain challenging why we all have to

behave a certain way. And then Letterman came on and he did the exact same thing. Like, why do we have to just have a guest and then a band? Why can't we, you know, whatever, put on a suit full of Alka-Sultz or tablets and jump into a bucket of water? You know what I mean? Like, hey, we have this big show, NBC's willing to spend money. Let's spend their money.

And that always struck me as exactly how I would do it. So he was an early hero. In terms of people that still to this, day, I think a really good. There's Terry Gross on NPR. Howard Stern, who I don't listen to that often, but

when he gets the right subject and they're willing and able, there's no one better than him at saying the thing that we all want to ask. And I think there's something to that. There's something, there's a, you know, it takes

a certain kind of person to ask. whatever is on their mind and have the other person open up and tell them. The difference I think between Howard Stern and myself is, well, there's many differences. But I always wonder after a particularly intimate Howard Stern interview, I'm assuming the person that was on the show goes home and the next day wakes up with the bit of that hangover. What did I do last night feeling? And I think one of the things I like about our show is that I'm not a journey.

and I'm not out to get people. And it's not, the, the goal is not to be sensationalistic. It's, it's to let a human being be themselves and not feel bad about it later. You know what I mean? Yeah. I'm a huge Terry Gross fan as well. And Howard, I just listened to him, do a really great interview with Dave Matthews, who's, I'm a fan of that music.

And it was, I've never heard Dave tell some of the stories he's told. And I've listened to a lot of his interviews over the course of 20 years. I think that's, there's a skill there. But I'm with you. I think some people feel like they, they bear their complete soul and some, even some areas that's not, they never intended to that may cross a line. But that's probably why so many people listen. You brought up something a few minutes ago that I can't forget. You said when talking about Letterman that people feel this need to follow certain social rules or what are the things you have to say at a

dinner party. And this is something that I've found to be interesting too, where maybe I've gotten funny looks based on the way that I respond or the topics I discuss with somebody if I'm with my wife at a dinner party or something like that. And you mentioned that you don't, you don't like having to follow those either. What did you mean by that? What are some, is there a story or something in your past that that comes to mind about how Sam Jones acts at dinner parties or any events that's where you're not necessarily following? the social norms. Well, I think I was referring more to when I was a kid and I moved away from home.

And I saw a lot of people just trying to fit in. And I think I didn't really fit in very well in school. So I developed a bit of a defense mechanism against that because I figured I wouldn't be. I wasn't going to fit in anyway. So why try? And there was a freedom I found in that. And I was a skateboarder. So typically the skateboarders that I grew up with were sort of shared that idea of it's more fun to go do stuff and make stuff and challenge ourselves than it is to go try to fit in.

And I gained a lot of self-confidence from that. I gained a lot of interests and desires through following my passions rather than trying to fit in. And I think leaving high school was a big thing for me to go someplace where no one knew me. And because I went off to school in Spokane, Washington right out of college. I didn't know anybody. And so I think what I was referring to was in that sort of apex of, you know, growth from high school to college. Letterman came around at that time and he sort of echoed those things in me. and I sort of recognized a kind of kindred spirit.

And I think also the music I listened to, The Clash and Bob Dylan at that time, especially, they were all sort of countercultural, lyrical ideas that were being expressed of, you know, why do things have to, why do you have to act a certain way or why do you have to follow the crowd or whatever? And I think that spoke to me as an artist. So I think that having that, finding sort of artistic freedom or self-growth from that, it made me question why people feel the need to follow social norms to a T. I mean, I'm not saying I went to dinner parties and sat on the table and my hands or anything. I'm a very polite dinner party guest,

but I certainly, I've never been a real fan of small talk. And I like the idea of getting the heart of something and having an interesting conversation. More than I'm worried about making a good contact or leaving a good impression, I guess. So you're going to maybe meet up with one person there and have a deep conversation with someone who's able and willing to go into depth as opposed to meeting 25 people and saying hi, I'm Sam and that type of thing. Yeah, I suppose that that ties into the accidental experience that I've gained to do this show. Yeah. Because that's true for me. I would rather have one long, interesting conversation than sort of meet everybody at the party.

And I think if somebody was, if you're saying, I want to do a long form interview show and we're going to do it on TV, the natural reaction or the natural add-on is, okay, cool, we're going to have this great studio with these incredible fixtures in the background. We're going to have a live audience. They're going to laugh. They're going to clap. They're going to do that. These big bright colors. And then you look at off camera. And this is one of the reasons why I kept the channel on when I first saw years ago is it's black and white.

There's nothing in the background. There's no audience. It's two people having a conversation. And it usually goes in incredible depth. And every single aspect of that is against the norms. I think of what most producers or people, people who would put a show like that together would do. And I think that goes back to my idea of questioning social norms because I always want to

take the position of walking to a room and saying, well, why does that have to be like that? Or why are we having this meeting inside a room at a conference table when there's, you know, a big picnic table and shaded trees outside or whatever? And I think I have the same question about about, All those things you just said, you know, the live audience and the really pretty set and the camera that moves on the dolly the whole time people are speaking. To me, all those things are saying, hey, what the guest is saying may not be that important or that interesting. So we're going to distract you with camera moves and an audience and a really exciting set. And to me, it's almost like saying we don't believe enough in the fact that this.

conversation will hold your interest. And I like the idea that off camera is subversive in that way that somehow we managed to get it on television. And we had some people at DirecTV that totally got it and understood. And we're saying, look, we believe the conversation is interesting enough on its own. And we're just going to, we're going to give it to you straight. And if it's not your thing, we understand if you need a lot of bells and whistles, this isn't your show. And I think that, you know, it's that classic thing. You can't please everybody. So you might as well please yourself and hopefully a portion of the population will come along with you. I don't think you could sense that you're following your genuine intellectual curiosity.

And one of the, I getting into kind of some of the nuts and bolts of interviewing real quick, I was watching your episode with Judd Apatow this morning on Netflix. And I'm always curious about how people start. It's different on a talk show when they have five minutes and at the end they're promoting their movie. That's not your show. That's the night shows. But yours, you can really go in whatever direction you want. You can tell.

And so for Judds, you started with asking what he was like in high school. And this elicited this. Really, I thought, an interesting response about the unfortunate divorce of his parents. And it created some story. telling immediately and I was I was drawn in as I am most episodes. How do you decide where to start a conversation? Because that can really alter the direction depending on where you decide to go. That's, I think, the hardest thing.

And I think you've hit on something that continues to be, you know, it's, it's always the question of where do you start? because, you know, some of our best beginnings have been completely accidental. If you watch the Jack Black episode, he was singing and trying to figure out a song. And it was just the most random start ever, and probably one of the only times we did a cold open before our music and everything. But I think that the beginning does, it does have such an effect on the guest's impression of what the show is. is if I start really complimentary, then that can be good for some guests, but for others,

it just makes them not try too hard. And if I start really intellectual and serious, then that's the kind of conversation we're going to have. But if I start trying to be really funny and it doesn't work, then it's awkward. So, you know, it's every single time before we have a guess, that's the biggest question is where do you start? And I think the thing we always come back to is that it doesn't really matter because we don't have total control over it.

We can pick the best way to start. And I can come up with what I think is the best first thing to say. And it may be great and it may not. But this show is a, it is an authentic conversation. And so sometimes those things are awkward. Sometimes they start slowly. Sometimes, you know, like there's nothing. there's nothing that takes away from the humanness more than trying to script a whole beginning.

So I may have an idea of where to start, and then the person comes in and I meet them, and everything goes out the window. And that just happened, actually. We just had Chris O'Dowd on the show, which I don't know when this show comes out, but he was able to come in a little early because of his schedule, and so his show hasn't aired yet. but we sat down and I sort of had my beginning planned out and he just sort of took over and it changed the vibe in the room for the better. So, but I do think that, you know, your first, the first thing you say is it is the only time in the whole show that I have complete control, which is I'm going to talk first.

And depending on what I say, it's going to go in a certain direction. and sometimes that can be sort of overwhelming. And it's helpful to remember that, you know, once that first question is out, it can go anyplace. And the best conversations tend to, you know, tend to be when I am okay with it going anyplace, rather than trying to get them back onto some scripted idea. And it's funny you mentioned Jed Apatow because I was like, episode 10 or 11 or something. And it's so long ago, I don't remember it.

And, you know, when I hear something like that, I almost question, like, do I overthink it now? Because I don't know if I would start now with somebody and say, what were you like in high school? But yeah, I think the main thing with the beginning is to know that you've got to start somewhere. and it's going to sort of determine the mood of the show a little bit. And beyond that, I wish I had a better answer, but we try to figure it out every week.

What percentage of your guests do you know prior to that interviewing them for your podcast or your TV show? Well, that percentage has really changed over the years. At the beginning, it was pretty much 100% because it was before the show had. a home or before anyone ever knew about it. So I could only ask people I'd work with and known. And now I would say it's 90% people I haven't met or maybe 75% people I haven't met to 25. I have. And that's just that's just because we've done 157 episodes at this point.

And, you know, I ran out of people I've, I know. So I'm curious what level of, or how much talking do you do prior to turning the cameras on and turning the microphones on? It depends. You know, we've certainly had times when we've had a woman on, she's just sort of popped into the, to get her hair and makeup done. And we're running behind schedule.

So by the time she's ready, we're in the chair. And I've got about a minute while the cameras are sort of getting set. And then there's other cases where there's been a 15 minute, 20 minute conversation just accidentally before we start. But those always worry me because they're exactly, you know, those pre-conversations are exactly what we're trying to achieve on the show. And unlike other talk shows, I don't want to know what we're going to talk about and I don't want to practice what we're going to talk about. So I'm really careful with that. I try to just talk about casual stuff without getting into anything that I'm tremendously curious about or think I want to talk about on the show because I want to save all that. But I do want to make a connection.

You know what I mean? So sort of funny balance. And again, you don't have as much control over it as you would like all the time. and maybe that's a good thing. But, but, you know, if, if there could be a nice five-minute chat about nothing,

where we feel each other out a little bit, that's, that's always helpful. It's interesting because, I don't know how you, you probably, but the people that you don't know, I would imagine that there is a PR,

um, agent involved. And I, I, um, have good relationships with a number of those who, who, um,

offer up guests for my show. And, there are a percentage of them that want my questions I'm going to ask before we hit record, which I obviously do not offer those up, mainly because I don't script questions. I take notes on the person. So in Hollywood and with actors and actresses, I'm wondering or artist, how do you deal with that if you get the request of, well, Sam, we need to know what you're going to talk about or at least some of the questions because we need to to prepare. I mean, if I would imagine that that people in that profession, there are at least a percentage of them that want that information. How do you handle that? Well, we're pretty

lucky with the fact that we started out with a pretty good guest list. And most of those people didn't come with publicists. And so we had sort of a track record of shows that, that, you know, the people we had on are as bigger, bigger names, for lack of a better term, than people coming on and and that's one reason but I think also you know we've we've been lucky enough that some of the biggest publicists that have the biggest clients they're fans at the show and they and they get it and they they understand what it is they know me from you know working for many years as a photographer and and I think also my history is, you know, someone who's directed stuff and, and photograph things.

There's a respect there and a trust, and we've never broken that. And, you know, it's interesting. Also, my producing partner is incredible at sort of explaining the show and talking about the show and explaining the level of interest for the guest and why we want to talk to them. And it's very, it's always a very good conversation. It's, hey, we want this person on because we love their work and we want to talk about their process. So good publicists just know the show is that way. And I also think that the guests that we tend to want to have on the show aren't those people anyway that are so, I don't know, worried about their brand that they have to script it.

And I suppose if any of that stuff did happen, we would, we just wouldn't have. that person on the show. You know, we've only had a few instances where where someone has called later and said, you know, gosh, I mentioned something and I realized later that's really going to hurt my ex-wife because the way I said it. And if it's something like that,

I'll just chop it right out. Yeah. Because that's not important to me. If, you know, and usually it's literally a sentence. We've never taken out more than a sentence. But if it's like, oh, I mentioned somebody and then I didn't mention the business partner.

So could you take the mention out of that person? And usually I've already taken it out anyway because, you know, I notice it. Whatever, you know what I mean? Like for me, if someone called and said, you know, that 15 minutes where she really opened up about her troubles with auditioning, we want to take that out. I would say, well, let's not air the show. You know what I mean? And luckily we haven't had that situation come up yet at all. Yeah. Well, Sam, this is a joy for me. I really appreciate your knowledge. I'm curious. Is there, or who's on that list of a guest or two that you really want to have on that hasn't been on the show yet?

Oh, my gosh. There's so many people. You know, there's people from my childhood, you know, like musically to have someone like Paul McCartney on just to speak to a beetle would be. incredible to me. And there's plenty of actors and directors. You know, Cameron Crow and I have been talking for four years about him coming on the show. And it hasn't been the right time yet. And I hope he doesn't duck it forever because I would love to have him on. You know, Matt Groening from The Simpsons would be incredible. There's some actresses that I'm, you know, astounded by the work they do. And, you know, I would love to have them on. And, you know, like Viola Davis and Merrill Streep and, and there's, you know, there are writers that there's all kinds of people. And I think that for me, when I'm excited about someone coming on,

it's a two-edged, it's a double-edged sword because on one hand, I tend to stress out a lot more. But on the other hand, it's because my expectations are so high because I feel excited about a guest. And, you know, so sometimes it's nice to be surprised and have someone that wasn't really on my radar on and find out that I just love their works and them so much. And so, you know, that's the funny thing about this show is, is I could tell you the 10 guests that are on my all-time dream list and they could be, you know, they may not be the best shows in the world. And then, you know, five surprises may come on and really blow me away. We just had one on last night that way. Betty Gilpin wasn't on my radar until she was on Glow. And I watched Glow because Alison Brie was coming on.

And then Betty Gilpin was offered to us. And she has a way of articulating her insecurity and her, you know, her difficult struggle with being an artist and being an actress in this town. And, you know, it turned into one of the most. fascinating conversations we've had in the show. And literally a month before having her on, I wasn't really aware of her. So those are the best surprises when someone comes along and exceeds expectations and makes for a show that seems totally original. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. So let's say, Sam, there's a few people listening who have never listened to your show or watched it. What is a

few episodes you would point them to to say, hey, start here? Well, first off, I would say, If you have DirecTV, you can just, you know, record us and we're there. We're on the audience network. But if you don't, it is still great to watch the show. The early episodes are on Netflix. You can see all of those. But there's only 36 episodes on Netflix, and we've made 156, I think, or 158, something like that. So if you go to our website, off-camera.com, you can get a monthly subscription.

And for like five bucks a month, you can see it all. And I would point you to Jenny Slate, David O'Yellowo, Dax Shepherd, Rebecca Hall, Betty Gilpin, Aubrey Plaza, Jack Black, Ethan Hawke, Mark and Jay DuPlas. The list goes on and on. But those are some of the ones that pop right to my brain as... Oh, and Jeff Daniels. Daniels, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. The Mark and J. Du Plast one is interesting about how just the, if you want to talk about resilience or perseverance or putting out your art and failing and coming back and coming back, I think that's a good one to think about. Absolutely.

Yeah, with anyone who's trying to do something like this. Well, Sam. Yeah, both of those guys. Absolutely. Well, thanks again for. for being here. Certainly, I would encourage people to check out everything you do from the podcast to watching the show. I definitely prefer to watch it. I love the visual of it, whether it's Netflix or the audience network. I appreciate you putting that art out in the world and giving so many

of us in this creative space inspiration, man. So thank you so much. It was my pleasure, Ryan. You had really great questions. So it was fun to talk about. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. definitely means a lot coming for you. All right, man. Thanks so much. All right. Take care. Okay. One of the really cool parts about doing the show is getting the opportunity to have a conversation with someone you really look up to. I've watched Sam's TV show on the audience network for many years. I find him to be one of the most fascinating interviewers on the planet. Someone I look up to, someone I study at times try to emulate. If you look at some of the videos I've recently released, they've been in black and white and an homage to Sam and his show.

So I'm so grateful and I will treasure that conversation. I learned a lot. I hope you enjoyed it as well. If you did, it would be fantastic if you would write a review, subscribe and rate the show in iTunes Apple Podcasts. That's write a review. Subscribe and rate it. Hopefully five stars in iTunes Apple Podcast. It really helps spread the message.

Thank you once again for your continued support and spreading this message all over the world and giving me the opportunity to continue to do it on a daily basis. I absolutely love and treasure this and conversations like this one. All right. See you next week. Can't wait.