The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 275: Joe Navarro - The World's #1 Body Language Expert (FBI Special Agent)

Episode Date: September 16, 2018

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk Episode #275: Joe Navarro - The World's #1 Body Language Expert (FBI Special Agent) Show Notes: Commonalities of sustaining excellence: They are exceptional observers They understand the needs, wants, desires, fears, and opportunities of themselves and others Strong attention to detail High levels of self and situational awareness "I don't go where the puck is.  I go where it's going to be." - Wayne Gretzky Some leaders can get mired in the mindless day to day actions.  The great ones focus on what's most important. Understanding non-verbals can lead to deep relationships. "One of the reasons we study non-verbals is so we can be empathetic." Moving to The U.S. as an 8 year old refugee from Cuba -- Joe could not speak the language, so it forced him to pay close attention to the non-verbal communication from his teachers and peers. The amazing focus of The Wright Brothers and how that led to their success Why the FBI called Joe when he was graduating from BYU "In the FBI, I was a paid observer.  I detected when something was wrong with the person right in front of me." How do we become what we are capable of? "It starts today.  What are my limitations right now?  Am I observing the things I should be observing?" "People are what's most important.  We have to be better observers." "Education is a continuous process.  I still see myself as a student." "Curious people are usually exceptional." "Communication is both reflexive and fluid."   Do not be cynical or expect people to lie.  Treat everyone with a blank slate. Ask questions.  Listen.  Ask follow up questions... "I never assume to have all the facts.  I want to hear what you have to say before I make a conclusion." "Our job as leaders is to ask questions, not presume we know all the answers." JFK vs Nixon debate: Why did the TV viewers think JFK won while the radio listeners thought Nixon won? JFK was tan, good looking, put makeup on, wore a tailored suit.  Nixon had a cold, suit didn't fit as well, didn't wear makeup, he didn't look as good as JFK. How we dress is important: "Everything is communicating something about us." Winston Churchill -- "He always rehearsed what he planned to say in a meeting." Also think, "How can I say this in the fewest number of words?" Abraham Lincoln spoke for 2 minutes and 26 seconds for the Gettysburg Address.  The speaker before him spoke for 2 hours.  We remember people who can effectively be concise. "Choose each word carefully." How an introvert can succeed at a networking event? "It's a performance.  Lead with curiosity.  Ask questions. Get to know one person at a time." Why joining The Learning Leader Circle is a good idea Use the "Get To Know You Document" "When you ask someone for help, you're giving them the opportunity to feel amazing." Social Media: Follow Joe on Twitter: @navarrotells Read: What Every BODY Is Saying Connect with me on LinkedIn Join our Facebook Group: The Learning Leader Community To Follow Me on Twitter: @RyanHawk12 More Learning: Episode 078: Kat Cole – From Hooters Waitress To President of Cinnabon Episode 216: Jim Collins -- How To Go From Good To Great Episode 200: Keith Hawk & AJ Hawk -- Showing Up, Doing The Work, Earning Trust, Helping Others, Winning The Super Bowl, Celebrating #200 Episode 234: Jocko Willink -- Why Discipline Equals Freedom

In the Bureau, what you find out is that you're really a paid observer. That is the number one job in the Bureau is you are a paid observer because it's all about observation. It's about conducting surveillance. It's about detecting when criminal activities afoot. You're doing interview after interview. And it's about studying the person that's in front of you and trying to decipher what are they holding back? Are they holding back some information? Which of my questions is causing this person the most to struggle with? This episode is brought to by Leveraged Learning. Leveraged Learning is a

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the age of opportunity for lifelong learners and experts with something to teach and buy it today. Welcome to The Learning Leaders Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Thanks so much for being here. It is Mindful Monday. Text learners to 44222 in order to join thousands of other fellow learning leaders from all over the world, text learners to 44222. Now, on the tonight's featured leader.

It's with the great Joe Navarro. He spent a lifetime observing others for 25 years as a special agent for the FBI. He's known as the world's number one body language expert. Also written 13 bestselling books, including the international bestseller, what every body is. saying. His most recent is titled The Dictionary of Body Language, a field guide to human behavior. Joe is remarkable. A few of the topics we got into. Why the FBI recruited him straight out of college and what was it they saw in him? Then how an introvert effectively communicates at a networking event. This is a part where we got tactical and I was fascinated by Joe's advice and then questions

to ask in the interview process for a job and what to look for, specifically as the interviewer and how this can help you hire and develop great people. Ladies and gentlemen, this one is so good with Joe Navarro. All right, Joe Navarro, I've been really looking forward to this one for some time. Welcome to the Learning Leaders Show. Well, it's a pleasure to be here, Ryan. I've been looking forward to it. I think your work over the last four so years to bring knowledge to everyone

is something to be proud of. And so I'm honored to be on your show. All right. Thank you, man. I appreciate the warm greeting. I want to get us going quickly. As usual, as long-time listeners know. And so, Joe, you have an incredible background, and we're going to get to a lot of it.

But I'm curious from the beginning, if you think about the leaders you've spent time around throughout the course of your career, whether it's in the FBI, your time where you're teaching and working with people, what, Harvard or CEOs of big businesses, you've spent a good portion of time around impressive leaders. And from your perspective, the ones who are able to sustain excellence over an extended period of time, what are some of the commonalities among those people? That's a great question. And right off the top, I've got to tell you, they're exceptional people or exceptional observers. I mean, they are on top of everything. They are observing. the needs, wants, desires, and the fears of others. But they're also looking for opportunities.

They're also looking to innovate by making observations. And so I think right off the top, that is the number one feature that I have seen. You know, both in the military, in CEOs, they are just fantastic observers. And they're very detail-oriented. It's funny. I talk about this with my younger brother when we use the word awareness. And that is, for us, at least, a synonym with high levels of intelligence, both personal, self-awareness, as well as spatial awareness. What's going on around us?

We both played football and all sports growing up, and good players seem to have this great sense of what's happening around. them. I played quarterback, so I'm always having to hang in the pocket and understand and feel that rush, but also step into the throw and read the defense at the same time. And I think it's helped develop some awareness and made me a better observer. And I found even, even, I remember a few really quality teammates who were great observers. It didn't always translate to great in the classroom, but I felt those were some of the smartest, most intelligent people I'd been around where, where they had this high level of awareness of self as well as what's going on around them. Well, I definitely agree with that.

As you say, as an athlete or the military, law enforcement, CEOs, they talk about situational awareness. Where am I? Where is everybody else? The great Gretzky, he said, you know, I hit the puck to where the player is going to be. You can't do that unless you have great awareness and all great quarterbacks. do the same thing. They know who's rushing. They know who's coming high and low and

where the receivers are going to be. But I think, you know, in the business sector, we often focus too much, you know, when I do one-on-one training with some very young CEOs who have achieved great things, but at a very early age, one of the things that stands out is that you can get mired in the day-to-day things that are unimportant and you miss out on the things that are truly important. And I think that's one of the things that great leaders are able to do is they're able to focus on everything, but get particular attention to that which matters the most. What are some of those things that you think matters the most from the CEO? that you work with.

One of the first things, and they tell me they've picked this up through the study of nonverbals is when there's issues. When they have a, you know, they've got a great team. They've paid a lot of money to bring great people on board. And then something is going on either in their personal life or there's something going on within the organization. And they're able to pick up. that, you know, so and so and so are not communicating. They're not getting along. Or someone is

having difficulties in their in their personal life. And what's interesting is most people do not front the things that they're hurting from or the things that are obstacles. But you see it. You see it in their nonverbals when, you know, you've got a group gathered around the table and and you've got two people that are sitting there, crossed arms, refusing to make even eye contact with each other. And it's the leader who can pick up on that and takes them aside and says, hey, what's going on? Because, you know, you can't be a team if we're not playing as a team. That's just a concept and name only.

And so being able to pick up on these issues, or as one talked to me the other day, the guy was going through a divorce, he was having a tough time but wouldn't tell anybody. But it was showing up in little things like arriving late at work, just totally being unable to focus. And he said, you know, this is just so unlike this guy. And so what do you do? Well, you know, one of the reasons that we study nonverbales is so that we can show empathy. So we can pick up on those tells or on those behaviors that say there's a problem here. There's an issue. Now what do we do with it?

And, you know, so we talked about it because he was quite young. You know, he's a CEO of a company, but he's 27 years old. And, you know, and so it was, you know, you sit down with him and you don't sit across from him. You just, you know, sit down as though we were, you know, at somebody's house, side by side on a couch. And, you know, you both stare off into the distance and you say, you know, how can I help you? What's going on? This is not the time to play boss. This is the time to be sympathetic.

And it worked. You have been called the world's number one body language expert. That's not just by people from all over the place. Journalists, people who have read your books, you've written just published, I believe your 13th book, former FBI agent. And what I found interesting about your story, and I'll let you tell it, but I'll just tee it up for you. is how you were almost forced to develop a mastery of non-verbals so that you can interpret and decode human behavior as an eight-year-old from Cuba. I found that fascinating.

So I'll let you maybe take it from there, Joe, because I think people will be interested here why you're almost forced to develop this sense as a young kid. Yeah. Well, you know, it brings back a lot of memories. you know, people forget, when the communists took over in Cuba, those of us who weren't going along with communism, we were forced to leave. And we literally had to leave within a day or two. And we came to the United States as refugees. It wasn't our intention to immigrate. We came here thinking, you know, in a few months or a few weeks, we'll be back home.

And we were living in the only place, believe it or not, we could afford at the time, which was Miami Beach. In Miami Beach, people forget, was a very slow town. It was mostly retirees. You could get a, you're going to flip when you hear this. You could rent an apartment, a two-bedroom apartment for a week for $27. And but, you know, all of a sudden, I'm in America. we speak no English, everybody around me is talking to me in a tongue that I don't understand. And so it was a matter of relying on that which I understood, you know, the smile, the elderly

lady that would hold my hand or touch me on the head, the gestures that are unquestionably authentic. And I think from that time on, for me, it became the lingua franca, the language that I could rely on that said, this person likes me, they trust me, they enjoy my company, versus others that perhaps didn't. And it was that sensitivity. You know, it wasn't something that I asked for, but it was that sensitivity that later led me on to. be inquisitive about nonverbal communications. And to be frank, Ryan, in the 1970s, there weren't many books on body language. There was probably maybe one or two. Those weren't even courses at the university.

And so I enjoyed and pursued it because it was fascinating to me that you could go from one country to another and experience very similar behaviors. And so I started reading the great masters, Darwin, who had written about body language, comparing it to the animals. And then later, you know, the work of Edward Hall and others. And so it wasn't my major in college. It wasn't something that was being offered. But certainly it was. It certainly It was something that I enjoyed studying on my own. And it was something that I focused on. You know, you asked a question earlier.

What's the other, what are the traits of exceptional people? I have to say is the ability to focus. It's the ability to focus on in one area. And I find it remarkable. You know, when you look like at, for instance, the Wright brothers who had, you know, they made bicycles for a living, but they were able to focus on aeronautical engineering. And I tell this to young people, you know, you may have a degree in this area or you may not even have a degree. Maybe you want to pursue something in your life that is important to you,

that is worthwhile. If you have this ability to focus, there is no reason why you can't achieve it, if you will but focus yourself. And I think that's one of the things that I did on my own. I wasn't great in math. I wasn't great in chemistry. My teachers will attest to that. but when it came to this one very narrow area, this is what I really enjoyed and, and I pursued it. And so the FBI calls you as you're graduating from BYU, correct?

Yeah, it was, it was very strange because I thought it was a joke. I got a phone call and this guy with a really deep voice, very similar to yours, in fact. You weren't around then, were you?

And he, He said, you know, we've been taking a look at you. We'd like for you to apply. Wait, wait, hold on, taking a look at you. What is that? How are they taking a look at you? Well, that's a good question. As I found out later, both the FBI and the NSA did a lot of recruiting at BYU.

And in part because, you know, Mormon missionaries go on foreign missions. and so they learned languages and they become very adept at it. So apparently they had scouts there. And so, but the next day, these two guys in suits showed up. I mean, it was like the men and black type thing. And they handed it. I never forget it. Manila envelope and they just handed it to me.

And they kind of said, we're in the area. And we'd like for you to fill that out. And that alone took a month for those forms. So, yeah, I was approached at the age of 22. Eventually, there was a nothing's changed in Washington. There was a hiring freeze that year because Congress had not passed the budget. So I came on board the year after. But I'll tell you, immediately, in the Bureau, what you find out is that you're really a paid observer.

That is the number one job in the Bureau is you are a paid observer because it's all about observation. It's about conducting surveillance. It's about detecting when criminal activities afoot. You're doing interview after interview. And it's about studying the person that's in front of you and trying to do. decipher, what are they holding back? Are they holding back some information? Which of my questions is causing this person the most to struggle with? And it's, yeah, it's, it's not like the movies where it's always sort of shoot them up and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,

scenes. It's really about, uh, observation. So do you think this is something that was innate with you developed from, from the year, uh, from one of your eight years old? A combination of both. I'm curious for the person listening who may be a 33-year-old manager at a big company. And this person is, they're fortunate to be in a company that's growing. So they're interviewing a lot. They're making hiring decisions. They're making firing decisions.

They're having to, like you said, ask questions, observe. I'm, like this goes from kind of the science to now. actual practice, Joe, that I'd like to give people tactical takeaways advice that they could implement today and get better at their job or maybe the job that they're about to earn through a promotion. Yeah, I'm curious for that person and maybe we have to get into specific tactics or we'll just, we'll start high and then we can zoom in. But I'm curious from your perspective, how does that work and how does one develop this?

because I have to imagine it's probably like most things, a combination of both when it comes to nature versus nurture. Yeah, but, you know, the overall question is fantastic because obviously most of us have achieved something in our lives to be wherever we are at. And the question is, well, how do we become that which we are entitled to or capable of? And the first thing I would say is stop right now. It starts today. It doesn't start tomorrow.

It doesn't start a week from now. It doesn't start when you come back from vacation. It starts today. It starts today with a realization that to move forward, to be exceptional, I have to do exceptional things. There's no getting around it. And if you want to be that better manager, if you want to be that better boss, if you want to be that better boss if you want to be that better husband or or partner or whatever one of the easiest things that you can do is say what are my limitations right now am i a good observer and what am i

observing for you know when when my wife or my partner comes through that door am i observing the things that i should be observing or am i just looking at my uh smart-futely phone and we have to look at reality and say, okay, people are important. And if they're important, we have to become better observers at it. And so it begins today with the realization that people are more important than technology, that people will support you, people will back you up, people will help you. Technology is merely a tool. And if we take care of people, people, they will take care of us. And so it begins today. It begins with, you know, can I be a better observer? And it doesn't matter whether you buy my books or you buy somebody else like David Givens or

Desmond Morris. But you tell yourself, you know what, I'm going to take the time to self-educate that education is a continuous process. You know, you were so kind with the accolades about, you my ratings around the world. But I have to tell you, I still see myself as a student. I learn every day. People see me walking around with a little notebook. And I'm at the airport and, you know, I see a little child doing something that I haven't seen before. Or I see an elderly person doing something that is a curiosity that may be age-related

or something. And I noted down because I say to myself, I don't, you know, I'm still learning. I'm still learning. And I think that's one of the other things that we can all do and say, am I curious? Because curious people are usually exceptional people. And, you know, the curiosity for the world around you,

both to enrich yourself, but also the curiosity to, you know, that benign curiosity when you ask someone, tell me about yourself. You know, I don't want to talk about, you know, that I've written 13 books. I want to talk about you. I want to know about you, Ryan. What do you think? What do you, how have you experienced the world? How was it to be a quarterback, to sit in that pocket and have people rushing you and to know that on every play, you're going to get knocked down. That's what I want to know. And so that kind of curiosity is something that people have to realize this is important.

This isn't something that is taught in school, and yet exceptional people are very curious. So your, I wonder about your process for just approaching people in general. And I'll put some more context here. One of, I regularly would ask for feedback from teams that I've led. I've worked in sales at a vice president level, Joe. So I've had managers as well as an individual contributors and directors working on my team. And some of the feedback that I've received that I am happy about when we do these like, 360 type things with HR, as they've said that the written feedback was you lead with trust,

meaning you lead believing that everybody tells you the truth, that people are inherently just and honest and good, even if it gets you burned every once in a while because somebody takes advantage of you for that. Somebody who's spent 25 years in the FBI, who was the spy catcher who has who has interrogated and understood and put away helped put away some of the worst criminals on the planet are what is your approach to people in general do you does it create some cynicism or do you can you still feel that people are just and good and honest or do you approach each conversation with a little bit of skepticism i'm curious Fantastic question. I think over the years, no one has ever asked me this question, and it's a profound question. I think that if you were to approach an interview or a situation where you are skeptical, where you are already prejudiced, where you are already biased, or there's even an inkling of suspicion, I think you're going to,

going to communicate that. And I have to tell you, you know, communication is both fluid and reflexive. And people forget that. It's fluid and reflexive. If you come at me, you know, suspicious, questioning with an attitude, it will always be reflected back. And it can change in an instant. So it's very fluid. I try to, I always tried. You know, I, I, I, I can't say it was always perfect, but my approach was always, I'm coming in, everybody's a blank slate. I want to hear your story. I want to hear what you have to say because, you know, part of it is the morality of it and the ethics of it that, you know, not just that people are presumed innocent, but the fact of the matter is, is that I don't know all the facts. And so I want to hear what you have to say.

And I have to tell you that, I mean, over the years, I've had criminals that I've put in prison who will send me Christmas cards and who will communicate with me and thank me for the way that I treated them. and I've even had their mothers right to me and say, you know, thank you for the way you treated my son. But that did not mean that I wasn't doing my due diligence because my job was to collect facts. And so whatever question was asked, whatever was answered, there were always follow-up questions. It was never one of, well, I'm just going to take what anybody says and just, you know, not question it at all. Because even the innocent, you know, you want to understand. Somebody comes to you and says, yeah, I witness this.

Okay. What did you see? Now, where were you standing when you saw this? Were you distracted in any way? What time of day was it? Was it nighttime, you know, how could you see it from this vantage point and so forth? So it wasn't a matter of being incredulous. It was a matter of I'm a paid observer.

And I have to account for all behavior and all time. And so I found it that it made for a more thorough interview without building in any kind of bias. And I think a lot of managers would benefit from something like that where, you know, you tell yourself, I am going to be neutral. But neutral does not mean that you are pliant. Neutral means that I am entitled to ask questions, but I am also entitled to ask follow-up questions to make sure that I do my due diligence. And I, and I, and you and I have both seen it, where somebody comes in and says, you know, where were you yesterday at, you know, and just the way they asked the question. It's already headed downhill.

And you can't recover from that kind of thing. And it can create a lot of problems. Well, the interesting part, Joe, I want, I've had some some incredible bosses, very lucky. However, I've unfortunately had one or two that always assumed people were lying to them every single time. And what I think that really is is a projection of their own insecurities because they are inherently a liar. And what I've learned. And that's proven to be true through the lies that they later told. And so for people in those situations, I don't know if we need to give career advice here.

I think it's pretty obvious if you find yourself in that unfortunate situation, it's probably time to cut bait or figure something else out that you don't have to be around people like that. But I think that's more of a projection on people when they approach. why it was interesting. I thought maybe over the course of 25 years, over all these criminals, all the people who have lied to you a lot, that it could create some cynicism in you as you approach people. And it's refreshing to see that it hasn't, that you still are able to approach people with a blank slate, even though you've been lied to a lot over the, probably, you've been probably lied to more than anybody I've ever met in the course of your career. Yet you're still able to approach each conversation with a curious mind, know that you're a

professional paid observer and the fact that you need to. ask questions and figure out the facts and then ask follow-up questions to dig a little bit deeper that I think is refreshing and good for all to hear. Well, I appreciate that, Ryan. And I'll tell you two stories, and they're both factual. One of them was it was a woman who spied against the United States for a foreign government. And she lied to me and other investigators for almost a year straight. mean, it was just lie after lie after after after lie. And it was one of these things where all the

evidence was overseas. So trying to get to the bottom of it wasn't like I could go to the bank and look at the videotape. Well, you know, these things were done very, very covertly. And I remember at the end of it, when we finally trapped her in all the lies, because then we had witnesses who said, no, this never happened. And, and, and, and, and, and, and she had. lied, you know, this whole time. We went back, the other investigator worked on this with me and said, you know, did we do things right? And yeah, we did. We did do things right. We couldn't accuse her of lying because we didn't know what the truth was. And that's the beauty of it. You can always go back and say, you know what? My job was to collect the facts. This is what was being reported. I asked

detailed questions. This was the best I could do. But the other story is kind of funny because, you know, here I was at prime of my career. I'm the FBI's go-to guy on nonverbal communications. You know, I'm teaching at Quantico every year and all this stuff. And you have to be careful that you continue to do things humbly. And I was asked to assist with a, white collar case, which normally I didn't do, but they were short on agents. And so this woman comes in, and the first half hour of any interview, you use that time to get to know them and calm them down. But as time is progressing, she's becoming more tense. She's wringing her hands. There's a lot of neck touching, neck clutching. She's ventilating her hair. She's

biting on her upper lip and pulling it down. And so, you know, I'm starting to think, you know, Joey, you know, you're the FBI's expert on body language. It's all there in front of you. And so finally, you know, I said to her, I said, ma'am, you look like you need to get something off your chest. And she says, Mr. Navarro, thank you. because when I parked downstairs, I only had two quarters and the meter is running out. This is a true story. So all the behaviors were there, but what was the cause of it?

And it's a cautionary tale that I often say that, you know, don't go out there just because you study this stuff and you see these behaviors and that you immediately know what the cause is. It's our job in management as leaders. Our job as leaders is to ask the questions and not to presume that just because we are in a leadership position that we actually know the answers. Life is very complex. It is rare. It is rare that we actually know all the reasons why we see. these behaviors. And I think if there was one giant takeaway from our conversation today, it is that that we can become better by observing, but we also have a responsibility to benignly seek out

the answers. And that is, I think, the true mark of a leader. Joe, I have a few probably rapid fire at least thoughts or notes that I'd love for you to respond to. Some of these are from the multitude of your books. The most recent book, by the way, the dictionary of body language, which is, I would just highly recommend for anybody in a leadership position to get, I think, is, because it's a field guy. That's what's cool. I'm holding it right now. You can see. But I'm just looking through it.

It's a field guy. It's like the size of your hand. And so you can just sit there and have it with you. And it's just like your little book. I noticed that you're taking notes in. By the way, Joe, I've never been more concerned with my own mannerisms in 270, 80 plus conversations here on Skype. I've never been more concerned with my mannerisms than with this one. So I don't know what I'm portraying.

You probably see the top of my head a lot because I take so many notes. But anyway, I just had to get that in. Anyway, a few rapid fire real quick here. I noticed you've talked about JFK and Nixon, 1960, first televised presidential debate, whereas if you listened to it, you may have thought Nixon won, but if you watched it, you thought JFK had won. And I'm curious, why was that the case? Well, I think it has to do with the fact that, you know, it was the first time social scientists looked at a phenomenon and said,

well, what was the difference? What was the modality? and the modality was somebody heard it and those who saw it thought, you know, Kennedy had won. So it wasn't about the words. And this is where this whole, a lot of research began into the nonverbal communications, how we dress. You know, why is it that a man in a navy blue suit, a two-button suit, is rated higher than a man wearing a brown suit with, and it's a three-button suit, it has to do with our perceptions of colors.

We prefer the color blue. We like to see the white shirt, the ventral displays. It really kicked off this phenomenon of how our visual cortex is so interested in the world that we're looking for the nuance. of nonverbals. And that's really what kicked off a lot of social studies into what influences us.

I just saw a study where a person wearing a green sweater with no logo on it was assisted 13% of the time. But if they had that same sweater and it had a logo of a, you know, a well-known manufacturer, they were assisted 52% of the time. So, you know, social scientists look at these little things and say, you're telling me that a Tommy Hill figure, three-quarter of an inch-sized object on your chest makes that big of a difference. And I have to say the research is there. What does that mean for you and your audience? How we dress every day, how we present, how we carry ourselves, the accoutrements that we have. You know, do we have a beat-up backpack or do we have something nice that is presentable when we show up to a meeting? Everything, everything is communicating something about.

us and and that's important. I mean, you know, we're having this conversation, Ryan, and you're, you're one of the few people that really takes notes as, as we're going along. The fact that you're taking notes at a meeting communicates that you have a deep interest in what's going on versus someone that maybe is sitting there and is twiddling their, their thumbs. So there's no such thing is just sitting there. We're always transmitting. And we're transmitting how much we care by the things that we do and how quickly we do them. So in this case, do you feel Kennedy is just a better looking guy and was dressed nicer? Or what was it in that particular case that people thought he won? Yeah, great question. So, you know, Kennedy had just come from Palm Beach.

He was tan. He was a little taller than Nixon. He was. He was a little taller than Nixon. He was. He You know, his suits were tailor-made, and he was young and handsome. And he allowed them to put makeup on him. Richard Nixon, you know, it was the end of the day. He had that five o'clock stubble, but he was also nursing a cold and refused to have any makeup put on him. And I think all of these things detracted from him. And to be fair, I mean, Nixon has. terrible nonverbals. He around people who were from the, um, uh, the east coast, the upper crust,

he was always nervous and a little anxious around them. And so you, you, you, you saw him fidgeting a lot. And, and, and even though he was vice president, he tended to, uh, to look, uh, less, less comfortable. Um, and, uh, that was a big factor. Yeah, we want to be led, I think, what I think of the best CEOs I've worked with. They have this measured, calm, cool confidence about that. I'm not saying that that's correct. I just feel like that is inherent. And that's a sense when you see this good looking guy versus the guy who maybe is a little dishevel or not the fitting suit.

He's not wearing the makeup or whatever. I think the lesson, I think, for all learners is to be cognizant of the importance of how you present yourself. And another add-on to this is, especially in meetings, since this is a question that comes up a ton, Joe, is, well, how do we, whether we run a meeting or be a part of a meeting. And one, understand how you look is important. And two, when you decide to talk, think about what you're saying. And if you actually have a point or if you're just talking because you're supposed to talk in a meeting. And I think that's the difference, too, between the leaders who excel, the ones who are. sustained excellence is that they are, as you use observant, so I would say observant slash very aware

of their surroundings, of who's in the meeting. And then they take this tight aggressive approach. When I mean tight aggressive, and you know this from playing poker, tight aggressive in my mind is, I'm not necessarily going to speak up a lot. But when I do, I'm aggressive. I'm coming with it. Like, I'm going to have something to say. I'm going to, I'm going to, there's going to be something that somebody should learn. And then I'm going to be quiet and I'm going to observe. I'm going to listen. and then I'm going to speak up versus the person who feels like they just need to talk all the time to hear themselves talk. That's, I think, an add-on to how you look as in how you actually act and what you say in a meeting situation. Well, I wouldn't name it the same way, but I would tell you, I would tell you this, and I learned this from studying Churchill.

I think I've read 13, 14 books on Winston Churchill. He always rehearsed what he was going to say ahead of time. And I find that very successful people will be thinking about, okay, we have a meeting tomorrow. What am I going to say? I find, unfortunately, a lot of people just show up for the meeting, and they don't think about how they're going to say it. And I can tell you as an author that I fight for words.

I fight for how am I going to convey this message? And I think it behooves us to, as you say, this sort of aggressive mode that you're talking about where you attack things. Attack what you're going to say by saying, how can I say this with the shortest amount of words? You know, nobody remembers the speaker who came before Lincoln at the Gettysburg address. And the reason nobody remembers him, Edward Everett, is because he spoke for two hours. And then, you know, Lincoln gets up and he speaks for two minutes and 26 seconds. And it's his words we remember. And that's because he reduced two hours of chatter into, you know, what was in essence a little tweet.

But it was powerful because he chose his words carefully. And I think this is what you're talking about, that if you go to a meeting and say, I'm going to talk, but I'm going to say, you know, really the most important thing in the most concise way possible, people will actually listen to you more. We all know somebody that talks too much at a meeting. And the minute they begin to talk, we start to turn the buttons off. It's, and, you know, and it's, it's, it's all over the world. I mean, I have students in China that tell me about this. One of the things I tell leaders to just try this because it's a good way to activate that thinking with the group is

tell them that they have exactly seven minutes and no more to get their point across. Now, they can use four minutes and then three minutes, five minutes. Five minutes. minutes and then two minutes, but they will have no more than seven minutes to get their point across. And here's what happens. It makes them think, how do I get my point across in a very short period of time? I don't have all day to float ideas. I only have seven minutes, and it begins to shape. And you say, well, why not five minutes? If you say five minutes, people, you know, it's like a bungee cord. It stretches or condenses. If you say, if you give them an odd number, it actually makes them think, oh, I've got to get my message down to this.

And it begins to shape and mold them into a better thinker and a better speaker. There's a lot of beauty with restraints. And that's why I think Twitter has been useful for some because it forces you to be more concise. And I wish I had this off the top of my head, Joe. but there's a great quote that basically said, I wrote, uh, whatever 10,000 words because I didn't have enough time to write 100 words.

And that's that's paraphrasing. Uh, obviously and I butchered it, but I think you get the point, which is it's harder to use fewer words. Uh, it's harder to be concise. So few people are,

are effective at it that it, it behooves us all to work on it to always whenever I write a post or something that I'm going to put up or even a part of a book proposal Joe my my next go around when I look at it is like how many words can I eliminate how many words can I literally put a line through it and it's still gets my point across and usually gets the point across more effectively of just getting rid of what's not necessary and it's I think it's good for all of us to think as a interviewer, when I listen to early episodes, that's what I try to listen to is, what could I have eliminated from that question or from whatever I said in between. And that is a useful exercise. And I'm lucky because they're all recorded. So I can hear how terrible some of them are to say, oh, you could eliminate that. And I think that's good practice for all of us to get into. It really is. It's, you know, it's the lazy person that carries a meeting for 20 minutes when he could have, he or she could have said,

in three. Yeah. One more question, Joe, before we get going. I'm curious, and this may be a risky one because it doesn't fully apply.

But a lot of people who listen to podcasts, spend time thinking, being introspective, and a number of them, I've received emails every day from people. On this scale of introversion to extroversion, tilt a little bit towards the eye, a little bit more introverted.

And so all of us, though, we choose to go to conferences or events or anywhere where there's big groups of people where it would be good for us to be able to network to learn from other people to talk. And I'm curious from your perspective as a guy who is a body language expert, right? You interpret and decode human behavior based on nonverbals. What are some, maybe some tips that you could give for others to observe others as well as to understand what are you giving off as that person who doesn't like being at a networking event

or a seminar, you're more introvert on that scale. What are some tips or advice you could potentially give to that person? I love that question, and I love it because I'm actually a high-end introvert. My idea of a good gathering is two or three people. Me too. I'm with you. But, you know, I think, so the first thing I think you need to tell yourself is it's a performance. Johnny Carson, who was, you know, great on television, was a high-end introvert. I think the biggest party he ever attended had six people in it. You know, it's, you have to convince yourself. It's a performance.

So what am I performing? Well, it's important to network. It's important to grow that network. It's important to get to know people. And I think if you just tell yourself, I'm going into it with benign curiosity. I don't want to talk about myself. I want to know about other people. And so I'm going to step up.

I'm going to shake hands. And it's a performance. And I'm going to say, hi, how are you? And just introduce yourself. And the other thing you're going to find is not everybody's going to talk to you. that's okay some people will talk to you some people will you know will engage you for for a greater period of time but the fact that you know sometimes it's up to us to actually reach out and shake hands because the other people may not be wanting to do it and so i i tell myself you know i i go to

these events and i and i have this conversation okay i'm just going to go up and just going to go up and just say hi, I'm so-and-so, and see where it takes me. And sometimes it doesn't go any further. And other times I've developed friendships as a result of that. But there is effort that is required on our part. So what do we do? You know, number one, a good handshake, a handshake that is not intrusive.

And by that, I mean that it meets the same amount. of pressure. You're not playing hand jujitsu. Your hand isn't on top. You're, you know, it's, you make good eye contact, a good smile. And if somebody begins to talk to you, you know, stand at a slight angle to them because that increases face time and tilt your head slightly. When we tilt our heads, it communicates that we're interested and that we are putting our agenda behind so that we can focus on somebody else's agenda. And these things tend to increase the amount of time that we're together. And again, have that benign curiosity where, oh, that's fascinating. What do you do? And just be curious about the world. If they ask you,

you know, what do you do? Yeah, then you front it. But I'm always interested in what people do. I mean, I've met people that tend to horses. I met a lady who's a cab driver from Slovenia, for heaven's sake, in Wyoming. And I let her talk for the full hour that we were in the cab together. And I just, you know, to me it was fascinating. How does a woman with grown kids from Slovenia drive a cab in Wyoming? me. And I still hear from her. It's fascinating. So I think if we take that interest in others and realize, you know, this isn't about us. It's our curiosity in others. I think it goes a long way.

Yeah, I think just having that outwardly mindset about trying to learn about other people and be genuinely curious about them. And when you say put on our performance, I know all, I know I think what you mean is it doesn't mean you're not going to be authentic and you're not going to be yourself, but you realize is a performance. For those of us who are more eyes on the spectrum, introverted, you give speeches. I give speeches. We go out and get on stage. I remember my dad told me this and I think about it before every single time I go on stage, Joe. He said, as you're about to walk on, remember, and this is something I need to tell myself because I'm much more comfortable now than I was a few years ago.

But he would always say, you're the baddest dude in the room for this hour. Okay. And you need to know that and act like it and put on your show. Now, and that's what I do. And meaning like, I'm going all in with what I got. That's the aggressive part. And, and, you know, it's gone relatively well. But the, but what happens then for those of us that are like you and I, Joe, and a lot of people listening is that usually when we get done after that hour, we're mentally exhausted.

I mean, I want to go to the room, the hotel, get room service, and watch a movie. And relax. It crashed. And then generate some more energy by herself. And I think that's okay. And that's what it means by, as you said, putting on a performance, whether it's a networking event, giving a speech, sharing at a quarterly business review for the board, whatever it may be, that that's part of what as leaders, we have to do sometimes. We have to think about that. So anyway, Joe, I could talk to you for hours, man.

I really appreciate it. I know I'm going to be respectful for your time, but the book that I would highly encourage people to get because, like I said, it's this nice little hand manual, a field guide to human behavior, the Dictionary of Body Language by Joe Navarro. You've written 13 plus books.

I know this is the most recent one. The guy named the world's number one body language expert. It's my pleasure to get a chance to talk to you, Joe. I really appreciate this, man. Ryan, thank you. It's great. It's been great talking to you. You're the best. Thank you. Where would you send my listeners to learn more about you online?

Yeah, my website, jenfirensics.com. All the books are listed there and some of the other things that are available. I have a free 13-page bibliography that I offer, and they can reach me there. Awesome. Well, thanks again, Joe. and I certainly want to continue this dialogue as we both progress on this journey of trying to learn and get better, man. All right, thank you, Ryan.

Thanks, Joe. Okay. You bet. What a fascinating talk with Joe. I learned so much about human behavior, nonverbal communication. It's so important for us as leaders to have a better understanding of that. And Joe was so giving of this time.

I hope you enjoyed it and found it useful. If so, I would love it, If you would write a review, subscribe and rate the show in iTunes Apple Podcasts. That's write a thoughtful review. Subscribe and rate the show, hopefully five stars in iTunes Apple Podcasts. It really helps spread the message all over the world and continues to give me the opportunity to do what I love on a day-to-day basis. Thank you so much for that opportunity. I love it so much.

I will see you next week. Can't wait. This episode is brought to you by. Leveraged Learning. Leveraged Learning is a great new book by best-selling author Danny Eni. It's no secret that universities and colleges are struggling to keep pace. It's sad but true. These institutions are leaving many of our individual and collective needs for learning and growth sorely unmet. This crisis is an opportunity for the experts and professionals who possess the knowledge and skills that are so sorely needed by so many. The solution is to package their

expertise into leveraged learning programs that creates transformation for the lifelong learners who need them and profit for the experts who create them. Danny Eni, a successful educator entrepreneur, has been leading the charge on this growing movement. In Leveraged Learning, he lays out the guidebook for navigating and thriving in this new world, both as a lifelong learner and as an expert with something to teach. Go to Amazon.com and buy Leveraged Learning, the age of opportunity for lifelong learners and experts with something to teach and buy it today. Hey, you were great. Thank you. Oh, thank you very much. I appreciate that. And so were you, I just did your ability to hit on everything

and go a wide-ranging talk that I know my process. I don't share questions or even have questions that I think about. It's all in the moment. So I really appreciate your willingness and ability to roll with that and do an awesome job, man. Yeah, it's funny how many of us are introverted. You know, and I tell people, it's not that we're not authentic. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's, the performance is very authentic. Yeah.

But it has to be a performance because you and I, we get dressed for it. We start thinking about it. It's a play, you know, what, what am I going to say? It is, it is a performance. I, yeah, go ahead. I really appreciate this. And, uh, and, uh, and I wish you. you look. I think you're a terrific interviewer. Your questions are outstanding. Thank you, man.

I really, it means a lot coming from you. So I appreciate that. I know you've, you're an observer and you ask questions for a living. So coming from you, it means a lot, man. I appreciate it. As far as this episode, I'll send you an email when it's coming out. Probably just be a couple weeks. And so you can, you'll get it. Yeah. No, I, I, whatever few people follow me. me on Twitter and Facebook. I want them to have access to it. It's amazing how many of them will over and over. They really get jazzed about, oh, here's some new materials.

Yeah, we got another hour of you, man. I think it's going to be great. So thank you, man. I'll send a follow up note. We'll follow it up in a few years then. Let's do it. Let's do it. All right.

Thanks, Joe. All right. All the best. Cheers.