The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 278: Mitch Albom - Tuesdays With Morrie & The Five People You Meet In Heaven

Episode Date: October 7, 2018

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk Episode #278: Mitch Albom - Tuesdays With Morrie & The Five People You Meet In Heaven Show Notes: Commonalities of sustaining excellence: Humility They contribute to the world - "Morrie did the bravest thing I've ever seen." Howard Schultz - The last person in line to get a book signed.  After all of his employees "Some of the greatest performers I've ever met are painfully shy: jazz musicians, Barry Sanders, Joe Dumars." Tuesdays With Morrie - "He was my college professor.  I had not talked to him in 16 years.  I saw him on TV talking about having ALS." Morrie - "I'm a teacher. That's what I do." Why was it so popular and shared so much? "Death ends a life but not a relationship" "You can live within the hearts of people you help/touched." "You have to make time for those relationships while you're here." "I write about living.  Death informs everything about how we live." "I try to write about reflecting on life." Why this theme? "I liked listening to stories from my uncle growing up.  His World War 2 stories." "I spent so much of my youth myopically focused on career success.  For many years I thought how far can I get?" "I wanted to explore what makes a better life?" Supporting 47 children in Haiti -- Taking two to college now. "Giving makes me feel like I'm living." "Taking makes me feel like I'm dying." Being part of Sports Reporters on ESPN Writers are critical thinkers and can be good on TV when thinking deeply Core pieces of advice: Be humble Be curious - Ask questions Don't lose self in the field you choose.  Life can be brief. "Find out who you are and what you value, and do that." Advice from a security guard: Read the best books Listen to the best music Observe the best art Surround self with the best people - Osmosis Immerse yourself with what you value The Learning Leader Circle -- Apply Use the "Get To Know You Document" "I wanted to explore what makes a better life?" Social Media: Follow Mitch on Twitter: @MitchAlbom Read: Tuesdays With Morrie Connect with me on LinkedIn Join our Facebook Group: The Learning Leader Community To Follow Me on Twitter: @RyanHawk12

What's the point of my being here? When I'm gone, if I'm gone tomorrow, what will be left behind of me? And I think that Mori, and even in people reading a book by a guy who was already gone, about a guy who never read a page of the book, remember? He never saw one page Tuesdays before. I didn't start writing it until after he died. And you look how many people he's affected. And I think people are inspired by that with their own lives and say,

oh, there's a way that I can actually be. hear when I'm not here. And I think that's what clicked the string with a lot of people. This episode is brought to you by Leveraged Learning. Leveraged Learning is a great new book by best-selling author Danny Eni. It's no secret that universities and colleges are struggling to keep pace. It's sad but true. These institutions are leaving many of our individual and collective needs for learning and growth sorely unmet. This crisis is an opportunity for the experts and professionals who possess the knowledge and skills that are so sorely needed by so many. The solution is to package their expertise into leverage learning programs that creates

transformation for the lifelong learners who need them and profit for the experts who create them. Danny Eni, a successful educator entrepreneur, has been leading the charge on this growing movement. In Leveraged Learning, he lays out the guidebook for navigating and thriving in this new world, both as a lifelong learner and as an expert with something to teach. Go to Amazon.com and buy Leverage Learning, the age of opportunity for lifelong learners and experts with something to teach and buy it today. Welcome to The Learning Leaders Show. I am Ryan Hawk.

Thanks so much for being here. It is Mindful Monday. Text learners to 442-22 in order to join thousands of other fellow learning leaders from all over the world. Text learners to 44222. Now on to tonight's featured leader. It's a big one. It's Mitch Album, internationally renowned and bestselling author, also an ESPN broadcaster on the sports reporters for many years. His books have collectively sold more than 35 million copies worldwide, have been published in 45 languages around the world and have been made into Emmy Award-winning and critically acclaimed movies. Mitch has lived quite a life. Incredible.

Few of the topics we got into. The lessons Mitch learned over the course of 14 conversations with his dying sociology professor, Mori Schwartz. This led to the book that has been gifted more than just about any other I can imagine Tuesdays with Mori. Then how Mitch's definition of success has changed over the years. Then the two pieces of advice he shares during his mentoring sessions and key note speeches. I feel so fortunate to have had this conversation I learned. lot. You're going to love it. It's Mitch Album. All right, Mitch,

album, I've been looking forward to this conversation for quite some time. Really excited to have you. Welcome to the Learning Leader Show. Thanks, Ryan. Appreciate it. The next person you meet and have it. I'm very appreciative of your team for sending me that book. I'm excited to talk about a few the details behind it as well as some of the contents within it. But I'm curious, Mitch,

to get us started. You have lived a remarkable life and continue to every day, and you've spent time around a lot of people who have sustained excellence over an extended period of time. And I'm curious from your perspective, what are some of the commonalities among those people who sustain excellence? If I were to focus on a single trait, it would probably be humility. Now, I have met people who are excellent in sports, in business, in charity, in charity and politics and music, but to me, excellence is also measured not how much money you

earn or how famous you are, but your contributions to the world. In all of those cases, I've met people who are excellent who have massive egos and are bullies, but I have not found that they sustain that excellence for long. It can be shots in the dark, they can have a great season. They can have one amazing book. But for the most part, the people who sustain it, and that was your question, are people who don't think that much of what they've done in the first place. That's what enables them to keep striving harder for the next thing they do, because to them, it was just something that they did, and maybe everybody else is making a fuss, but they don't necessarily see it as that big a deal. And that enables them,

To move forward is both to sitting and resting on their laurels. Who is the first person or two that comes to mind when you think of exuding both excellence as well as humility? Oh, boy. Well, I mean, the first person who comes to my mind when I sort of look back on my life is Mori, who, you know, Tuesdays with Mori. Now, Mori did not earn a lot of money, but Mori did the bravest thing that I've ever witnessed somebody do over a long period of time, and that is recognize that he was dying and still find purpose and reason and joy in his everyday life. And he had to sustain that over a period of, you know, well, nearly a year. from when the time that he had been diagnosed with it, and that's not easy to do. And of course, his excellence in terms of just always understanding life and people and what was

important in life, even when he was healthy and he was my college professor 20 years earlier, and even in his dying months, that was, you know, really made an impression on me. Since then, however, and paying attention to humility, boy, I remember, feeling that way when I met Howard Schultz, who runs Starbucks, who's a friend of mine. I'll give you a quick little anecdote that tells you that. I went to Starbucks to sign copies of, I think it was the five people you mean in heaven, so it would have been the early 2000s.

Well, Starbucks was big, not maybe what it is right now, but it was pretty huge. And I spoke to, I don't know, a couple hundred of their employees. and then after it was over, I signed copies of the book. I'd never been to Starbucks, didn't know anything about it. At the end of the line, the last person to step up online was this kind of tall, gangly guy in blue jeans with a beard. And he gave me a copy of the book, and I said, what's your name? And he said, Howard. And I said, you know, so I started writing to Howard.

And I said, and how long have you been with Starbucks, Howard? and he said since the beginning. And then I noticed people around me kind of chuckling or gang. I said, what's up? And he kind of looked down and he said, I'm Howard Schultz. I'm actually the CEO of the company. And I didn't know. So I felt the shame.

But there was, you know, he wasn't going to tell me. If I had just signed the book to Howard, he would have taken it and walked away. And I have always teased him about that. You know, how long have you been with the company, Howard? Since the beginning. That's a great answer. Yeah, so jazz musicians I've met are always way more humble than their talent would suggest. That seems to be uniform across the board, and I've always been impressed with them.

There are a handful of athletes that I have covered over time, Barry Sanders being one of them, Joe Dumas being one of them, who were almost painfully shy. and withdrawn, and when he wanted to talk about their accomplishments, they were very uncomfortable. Barry, in particular, I remember one day he ran for about, I don't know, 250 yards, something like that. It was some kind of record. And everybody raced into the locker room after the game was over. For those of your listeners who don't know me, I started as a sports writer. Well, I started as a musician.

Then I became a sports writer. but before Tuesdays or more your books or things like that, that was really my career and and remained so in part to this day. So I went down with all the reporters and everybody was crowding around Barry's locker waiting to interview him, but I noticed that his shirt was gone because I had seen what he had worn coming in and I said, that means he's taken off already. So I ran out the back door into the parking lot of the then Silver Dome where they played. And sure enough, there was Barry Sanders walking up to his car all by himself.

and I ran up to him and I said, hey, Barry, Barry, you know, can I ask you something? He said, yeah, sure. And I said, you know, I had to feel about the whatever. I asked them to a hundred, oh, oh, yeah, you know, whatever. And I said, Barry, there's like a ton of people back at your locker waiting to talk to you. Really? Why? I said, because you ran for like 250 yards and it's like a record.

And he went, hmm. And I said, you're going to go back? He said, nah. And he just kept walking. And, you know, that was. that's the kind of, you know, example, writ large, I can give you a thousand of them, of people that I've met who are remarkable at what they do and are just humble about it. And of course, he sustained that excellence right until he walked away from the game,

which was another humble act too, because, you know, most guys stick around to make as much money as they won. After 10 years, you just literally walked away. He said, no, I'm done. And he never played again. It's amazing story. I mentioned there's so many different aspects to your, career and life, Mitch, and it'd be impossible to touch on all of them. So we're going to tackle a few. Tuesdays with Mori, getting to some of your writing. I'm going to talk about Tuesdays with Mori and then

the next person you meet in heaven. I would guess that most people listening probably already know about this. I think the book is sold over 15 million copies, maybe more now. Last I was reading this morning. Truly one of those books that is timeless, it will be, I think, just one of those that is handed out as gifts forever. Obviously it has. It's a life-changing book, obviously for you, as well as the people who have read it. But for those few maybe who haven't, Mitch, I would love if you could share a little bit about Mori and why you wrote that book. Because I know initially you plan to sell copies out of the back of your, the trunk of your car, just to help Mori with some medical bills.

And obviously, it became much more than that. Yes. Mori Schwartz was my own college professor when I was at Brandeis University. We'd been very close. I took every class that he offered. We became more like an uncle and nephew during the time we were there. I was very enamored with him. He advised me.

He was the first sort of adult that it treated me like a kid. an adult. And when I graduated from college, having majored in sociology only because of him, I bought him a briefcase. I gave it to him. He took me around, gave me a big hug. He said, promise me you'll stay in touch. I said that I would. And then I went off into the world and proceeded to break that promise for 16 years while I pursued my own ambitions and ego and never even called him, never went back to see him, never called, never wrote, anything like that. And 16 years later, when I was by many people's definition successful or even very successful, I happened to see him on television talking to Ted Koppel about what it was like to die from Lou Gehrig's disease.

And it was only through that chance sort of flipping of the remote control that I found out that he had ALS and only had a few months left to live. I went to visit him out of guilt, thinking that I would visit him once and that was it. And that stayed for maybe 20 minutes. but I was so taken with what I saw. He was in a wheelchair at the time and didn't have the use of his legs, barely had the use of his arms, but he was so upbeat. He had found so many interesting things in his dying to take note of and to teach. He continued to teach people about what it was like to die because he said, well, I'm a teacher.

That's what I do. And the whole time I was with him, he never asked me about money or accomplishments. He asked me things about, you know, have you found someone to share your. life with? Are you involved with your community? Are you happy every day? And I realized the hours went by and when I flew home that night, I said, you know, he's 78 and dying and you're 37 and perfectly healthy. And he seems 10 times more content with his life than you do. And what's the matter with this picture, you know? And so I started going back the next Tuesday and next Tuesday, next Tuesday, it turned out to be all the Tuesdays that he had left in his life to try to get the answer to that

question. It wasn't to write a book. It was to change my own life. I think I was at that point where I was open to another way because I was having success but wasn't feeling complete. About halfway or a third of the way through that process, we had begun already taping our conversations and he told me that he, I asked him just this out of the blue question about what he feared the most with his death and he said, I feared the debt that I'm going to leave my family. And it was only through that that I found out that he was deeply in debt for his medical bills. He didn't have a very good retirement plan. Insurance didn't cover a lot of the things that you have to deal with when you have the ALS, you know, massage therapists and round

the clock care and things like that. And so he said, you know, first I'm going to die and then they're going to have to sell the house and everybody's lives is going to be uprooted and, you know, I'm going to die twice. And so I got the idea that maybe I could, write a book and help him pay for his medical bills. That was the only reason that Tuesdays with Mori even became an idea. And while I was continuing to visit him on the other days of the week, periodically I would fly into New York and try to meet with publishers to see if they would be interested in this book. Now mind you, I had written two bestselling sports books in a couple of years prior to this. So I went first to the publisher who published those. They were both, you know,

top New York Times bestsellers and made a lot of money. And I said, please, would you be, you know, I just want to get enough money to pay his medical bills. And the guy said, nah, you know, we really just want your sports books. You know, come back when you got another sports idea. Then I went around to other publishers and most of them said similar things. You're a sports writer. What do you know about this?

It's depressing. A guy's dying. And I had one publisher tell me, you know, you don't even know what a memoir is. Come back in 20 years. maybe you'll understand the concept of it. So if it hadn't been for the fact that I, you know, I was desperate to help him, I would have given up on it because you get that much rejection. You start to think, okay, I guess this isn't a very good idea.

But, you know, I was hell-bent on finding someone. And a few weeks before Mori died, we did. I went to Mori and told him at that point. I said, hey, you know, all these tape recordings and sessions we've been doing. He thought I was going to write a thesis. He kept saying, write a thesis about it. all our discussions. I didn't have the heart to tell them that, you know, I wasn't enrolled anywhere. I was like, you get just right a thesis. You have to be in school. But I said, hey, you know,

all these conversations that we've been having? And he said, yeah, I said, well, there's a publisher that's going to publish them as a book. He said, really? Who? I said, double day. He said, ooh, I heard of them. And I said, yeah, well, not only that, but they're going to get a bit some money. And I want you to take all the money and pay off all your medical bills before you die so that you don't have to die twice, you know. And that to me was always sort of the end of the Tuesdays with Moray experience for me because I had, you know, through his kindness and his affecting generosity and big heart, I had finally stopped being so damn selfish about myself and had maybe done one nice thing

for somebody else purely for the purpose of helping them. And I always say that that was the conclusion of Tuesdays with Mori for me. Of course, for the rest of the world, it hadn't begun yet because I hadn't even written the book. And when I did write the book, I did it very quickly. I did it, you know, mostly, you know, we had taken the money for his medical bills. I had really done what I wanted to do. So I wasn't aiming for it to become some kind of big seller or anything. I just wrote it simply.

And I just had one edict to myself. Just tell the story of what happened and that's it. Don't try to show off with your language or how many great adjectives you can have for death. Just tell what happened. It was special enough. That's why the book ended up being so short. The publishers even said to me when I send it to them, I said, this is it? It's supposed to be a 300-page book.

I said, well, how long is it? They said, it's like 140 pages. And I said, oh, sorry. Well, that's the whole story. I don't have anymore. So they made a small book out of it, partly because they're, you know, if they had made it like a full-sized book, it would have looked like a comic book. And so, you know, people always wonder, how come your books are small, that little small size of Tuesdays of Mori? And I said, well, you know,

I turned in a short book. And when it first came out, there was no big push for it or anything. They only printed 20,000 copies total. They thought, you know, they'd be lucky to have those. And, yeah, like you said, I thought I'd be dishing them out from the trunk of my car for the next few years, you know, wherever I went, whenever holiday show up at Christmas with a bunch of them in my truck. But remarkably, you know, somebody read it and somebody read it and passed it on. It was a real word of mouth book. It wasn't broken by any big news event. And I think it was, it came out in August of 1997 with no fanfare.

I mean, what book comes out in August? You know, that is supposed to be a big bestseller. And it didn't reach the bestsellers list at all until like October or November, which usually by that point, big books have already. faded and it went to number one in April of the following year. It had just been a slow sort of little climb, climb, climb. And when it went to number one, it stayed there for like four years. And so I always say, you know, it wasn't me. It was Mori. I was the conduit. I carried his water. I don't kid myself that my writing was so incredible that this book couldn't be put down for four years on the bestsellers list. I just think Mori had something that resonated with

people and I happen to be the person to be bringing the message. What is the message that you think resonated? What are those few key? Because you said it's an old man, a young man in life's greatest lesson. And I think a lot of us, especially people who listen to podcasts like this, we're constantly seeking that. And we're the type of people who do pass this book around, who buy it and gift it to others. And I would bet this is one of the most gifted books of all time, truly. It's been gifted to me. I've gifted to others many times over the years. And I'm curious, what are, what is that lesson or two that makes people want to share and talk about this book so much? Well, we spoke about different subjects every week.

And so it was a little bit like a class. And even the book itself is sort of put together that way. This, the fourth Tuesday, we speak about family. The sixth Tuesday, we speak about forgiveness. Ath Tuesday we speak about money, that kind of thing. And so within each category, there's sort of some wisdom that Mori had. If I had to pick one or two overriding lessons that permeate all of the ones that I just mentioned, it would be in the phrase where he said, death ends a life, but not a relationship,

which wasn't his original thought. He was quoting someone else. But what he meant by that was, you know, if you lead your life with people, making time for people, giving of yourself to people, making memories with people, then when you die, you're not 100% gone. You live on inside the hearts of everyone you've touched. And so death ends a life but not a relationship. The people still have that relationship with you. And it's like ripples in the pond that you, you're the stone that goes into the pond. And then the ripples are all the, people that you've touched and affected as you go on. But you have to make time for those relationships while you're here and you have to nurture them. And within that or some of the other lessons, you know, you have to value family. You have to embrace forgiveness. You have to be involved with your community, all these types of things in order to go on after you're gone. And I would say that that's sort of the overriding thing that permeates all those other different lessons.

And I think a lot of people out there, be they young, middle-aged or old, periodically question, you know, so what's the point of my being here? You know, when I'm gone, if I'm gone tomorrow, what will be left behind of me? And I think that Mori, and even in people reading a book by a guy who was already gone, you know, about a guy who was already who never read a page of the book, remember? He never saw one page Tuesdays before. I didn't start writing it until after he died. And you look how many people he's affected.

And I think people are inspired by that with their own lives and say, oh, there's a way that I can actually be here when I'm not here. And I think that's what clicked the strings with a lot of people. And I know a common question you get is, why do you write so much about death? And you, I know, kind of flip that and say, I don't necessarily write about death. I write about living. And then your next most recent about to be bestseller, I'm certain, is called the next person you meet in heaven. And so when you hear that, I think, oh, Mitch is Mitch writing another book about dying or about a place you go when you die potentially for those who feel that way? And I'm curious to get your take on two things, really, two parts.

one, this dichotomy between living and dying and what you write about as well as then the purpose and the why behind the next person you meet in heaven. Well, you're right when you say that whenever people say that, I always come back and say, I don't write about dying. I write about living. But it's very hard to get people to really care about looking into how they live until they realize they're going to die. Let's face it, if we, if you and I and everybody listening to this podcast had endless time or even thousands of years, there'd be no hurry to improve our life.

There'd be no hurry to be charitable. There'd be no hurry to be kind. We would be probably very hedonistic and say, I'm just going to enjoy myself for the first thousand years. And maybe after the first thousand, you know, I'll think about doing something else. So it is in so many ways the fact that life is impermanent. It does not go on forever that informs everything about how we deal with things. Why are people in a hurry, period, let alone a hurry to succeed, make money, because in their minds there's a clock ticking. Why do people want to start families by a certain time because there's a clock ticking?

Why do people want to make their first million by a certain point? because in their head there's a clock ticking. Well, what's the point of a ticking clock unless it's reaching a certain time that you are concerned about? And that time is, of course, when we're no longer here. So in my books, there's usually one death. It's Mory, in two days with Mory,

it's Eddie and the five people you meet in heaven. In my new book, The Next Person You Meet in Heaven, which is the sequel to the five people you meet in Heaven. It picks up 20-some-odd years later after the five people you meet in heaven, which was about an old man named Eddie who died saving a little girl named Annie from an amusement park accident. In the new book, and the next person you meet in heaven, it's what happens to Annie when she dies and then goes to heaven and meets people, including Eddie, who explains something that she didn't understand about her own life. So there are books that are out there by crime writers and thriller writers in which 50 people die in the first 12 pages. And I always say, well, those are books about death.

They describe the death. They describe the bullet going through the head. They describe the heart falling out of the chest, whatever the gory details are. And no one ever says, why do you write about death? They say, oh, that's a thriller. But I write, you know, one death to try to reflect back on life. And sometimes people say, are you writing about death? I said, no, I'm getting your attention with death so that I can write about life.

and, you know, and no more than it's a wonderful life, which has been, you know, I've often said an inspiration to me in terms of its, its simple message that resonates with so many people. Would you say that that was a movie about death? Or would you say that that's maybe the most life-affirming movie that there is? And yet, you know, the key point of it is when he jumps off a bridge, supposedly, to kill himself. So, you know, I don't mind. I mean, I kind of, you know, chuckle at it and I, you know, get the chance to explain it now and then like you're giving me on your show. But I just see, I just see death as a way to really get us to focus about what we're doing with our time.

And that's true of the first person you meet in heaven as well in which a young person, Annie, is only 30 when she dies tragically in a balloon accident and doesn't see it coming. you know, unlike, you know, Eddie's already 83 and he doesn't really want to live so much longer anyhow. But this was what happens when, you know, you're suddenly plucked from a young life and a life that she felt that she'd made mistake after mistake after mistake in. And when she gets to heaven, she finds out that these mistakes were not what she thought they were. So, again, it's the same technique, a death that enables us to focus on some of the issues we grapple with in life. Where do you think this comes from, this deep study of living a good life of meaning? Did it come from Mori? Has this come over time?

Have you always been this way? I'm curious, where do you feel like this comes from, this kind of theme of the way that you think and write? No, I mean, I don't think it comes from something that is necessary. in my youth. I was an inquisitive kid, and I would always listen to stories of older people. I was the kid

at the dinner table or the Thanksgiving table, and all the old relatives would start to tell their stories. I was the only one who stayed. You know, the other kids bolted and let's not get stuck in this boring story. And in fact, one of the stories I would hear at the Thanksgiving table year after year was by my

Uncle Eddie, who used to talk about night, we'd always tell the same war stories over and over. He was in World War II. He was in the Philippines. He talked about shooting into the dark and not knowing if he killed anybody and things like that. But then he would always tell this story years later that he got rushed to open heart surgery once and they put him on the table. And he believes that he died on the table and he rose from his body and was looking down on the operating table. And then he saw all of his dead relatives sitting by the table waiting for him. And of course, as a kid, you're always saying, what did you do? What did you do? And he said, I told him, get the hell out of here. I'm not ready for any of you yet. And they flew away. And he went back into his body and he lived another 15 years or so. And that story, which I would always tell him, tell me the story about when you went to the hospital. Tell me the story when you saw the ghosts. That ended up becoming the basis for the five people you meet in heaven,

which follows the premise that there are people waiting for you when you die. Of course, And my book, it's not just your relatives, it's strangers and things like that. But that came from him. And in fact, the character, Eddie, is based on him. So I'm sure there's elements of my youth that end up popping back up in my books. But I need to answer your question. Honestly, I spent so much of my adult youth being myopic and ambitious that I think I was so far, we call that to the right.

I was so far over to the right that when Mori happened, it was like getting clonked on the head. And then ever since, I've sort of walked back towards the left. Now, please don't associate left and right with politics. I could have said it the other way around. I could have said north and south.

It's not like that. But I think what enabled me to, and what enables me to be so interested in trying to find the most important things in life, and a quality life, and when I say many years, and when I say many, I mean, yeah, for the most part, almost 20 years. I was really just, you know, how far can I get? How ambitious can I get? How many awards can I win? How successful can I be? How much money am I earning? Not in a mean spirited way. I don't think anyone who knew me during those years would say, oh, he was ruthless.

I never had that quality. I didn't need to knock over other people. I just wanted to work really, really, really hard and I did and I you know and there were 120 hour work weeks were very common for me so I was just buried in work and writing and television and radio and doing everything I could to try to just say yes say yes to everything and then that more experience really kind of threw me backwards and then when the book came out I kind of intended to sort of well all right I wrote the book that was that was an interesting year away from being ambitious and now I'll return to that and then the book and its following and its success have sort of gripped me and never let me go. The example I frequently give is that before Tuesdays of Mori, if I got stopped in an airport,

somebody recognized me from ESPN or something, it would always be for a sports question. They would say, who's going to win the Super Bowl? And, you know, you'd get on the moving sidewalk and you'd say, New England, you know, as you disappeared into the airport. But after Tuesdays with Mori, people would stop me and they say, oh, I, I read your book Tuesdays with Mori. It was the last thing my wife and I read together before she died from cancer. And can I talk to you about her? And you can't just get on the moving sidewalk and say,

New England and keep going. You know, you have to stop. And that has happened to me, Ryan, thousands and thousands of times at this point in my life. I mean, days, rarely does a day go by where somebody doesn't stop me and talk to me about something with Tuesdays with Mori or some sick relative that they have or someone Amy Tan said to me when Tuesdays of Mory came out, she's a friend of mine from a band I play in

and she said to me, I want to tell you two things about this book. This was just before it came out. She said, one, I think it's really good and I think it's really going to be big, which was a surprise to me because you know, I didn't think so. And two, she said, you're about to become

everybody's rabbi. And I had no idea what she meant, but boy, was she prolific in that, you know, and I have to sometimes tell people I'm not qualified to really answer what you're asking me. You know, these are deep, deep questions. I was the one sitting with Mori. You know, I was the stupid one.

Remember, he was a smart one? So all of which is to say, Ryan, that I have been sort of led by the nose ever since that book came out to explore what makes a better life. And it has led me to some incredible places, including a lot of charity work, which dominates my time now, here in Detroit. Haiti where I operate an orphanage. And for the last, well, January would be nine years. I've been there every single month and I have 47 children that I'm raising and they've changed my perspective on life enormously. As we as we are sitting here when I finished doing this podcast with you, two of them are here in my house and I'm taking them to college. They're our oldest two. And the first ones to come out of the system and they earned scholarship to go to a school nearby here.

Madonna University and I'm moving them into their dorm. Now, you know, I'm a little old for that little exercise, but it has, it's things like that and, and many other experiences with the younger children that have really changed my perspective. So it really kind of began and went with one life and has now continued in another. It's inspiring to see, man. And I think there was a part that you and Maury were talking and you said if there was ever a time for you to get selfish or take or talk about yourself now is the time you're about to die and Mori told you giving makes me feel like I'm living and I sense that it's what's inspiring about the stuff that you do is that when you actually put it into play like put it into action the advice that he gave you that

that giving makes him feel like he's living. And it sounds like that's what you build your life around now. Yeah, it is. And it's very true. And I know what, you know, I remember that moment when I said that to him. You know, you can't even move. You can't walk. You can't lift your head.

You need someone to blow your nose for you, wipe your ass for you. And, you know, why don't you just accept everybody's sympathy? Why are you always asking people who come in here? So tell me about your problems. Tell me about your divorce. Tell me about your job. Tell me about. And that's when he said, don't you understand.

And if all I did was just accept everybody's sympathy, that's taking. And taking makes me feel like I'm dying. Giving makes me feel like I'm living. And I've never forgotten that. And it has proven to be so true. And again, as I indicated before, I had an early life of taking. So I know what that feels like. And there's a lot of, you know, it feels good at the moment.

You know, you get something. You get a paycheck. You get some success. You get a reward. You get a, you know, something. But it's always gone. very quickly. And the giving part really just washes over you. It's like being in a river. And it never, you're always surrounded by it as it takes you along. And so I have devoted the second half of

my life to giving. And I'm the better person for it. And I'm glad that Mori kind of opened my eyes to it. Well, thank you for that. And for this conversation, Mitch, like I could have talked to you for an hour and a half about sports reporters and nothing else because I grew up watching every single time you were on for years and years with Lupica and Bill Road and Bob Ryan. I mean, all those guys. But I know we, we, we, maybe, maybe for the next conversation, we can talk sports. Well, I don't mind talking a few minutes about that if you like. I know you got to take your voice. I want to be respectful over your time. But I, yeah, no, I'm just going to say like, how to, we can go for another, uh, what is it, 10 a after? We could go for another 10 to 15

Oh, cool. Okay. Thank you. I know you can edit these things. Oh, no. Well, you just keep it going. It's a real conversation. Like, we were having lunch and you say, hey, like, actually, let's bump it out another 10 minutes. That's how dessert. Yeah, perfect. Sports reporters is a show that had a huge impact on my life.

It really, I mean, I played sports growing up, played football, played quarterback in college a little bit after college, Mitch. So big sports guy. And I watch you guys every weekend, I feel like, for so long. And I always so impressed, this may be weird, but just about the thought that you would put into your responses. Because nowadays, it's very common for people to see who can yell the loudest and say something that could potentially go viral or even purposely make somebody mad because then it could create a headline, which then gets clicks. And when you guys, I felt like we're on sports reporters. And there was some arguing at times. I think Lupica can kind of get going a little bit.

But I've always felt like you had this measured, thoughtful, intelligent approach to every time you decided to speak, whether it was certainly the final part of the show, but then also throughout. And I'm just curious of your thought process as you prepared every week to go on ESPN on sports reporters and talk. In this case, it's about sports. but I'm usually fascinated by people's processes for preparing for moments, and that's what I'm curious to learn about. Well, the funny thing is, I would always say that by having to wear ties and jackets, we almost kind of boxed ourselves in every Sunday in the Sports Reporters to being above the dirty fray. you know and and it's weird if they had allowed us and that was not our idea that was that was that was a producer's idea and their idea and it just became the tradition and no one would ever think of going on without a tie and in fact a few times guys would show up oh my god I forgot my tie we would

go into the room they had there whatever and steal one off of the rack as we filmed so early in sunday mornings we could always you know what else was there and we'd find another tie but you know heaven forbid you should not wear a tie. And even that little thing gave us a sense of, no, we need to be above this. Also, most of the people on the sports supporters and certainly the regulars, like myself and Mike Lubbock and Bob Ryan and Bill Rodden in earlier times, Tony Cornizer and many others, Mike Wilbon, all those guys got their start with us. We were writers.

So we looked at critical thinking as a part of what we did. and our struggle was to find a way to be more television-like while still thinking the way we did. Whereas many people who have later gotten into ESPN, they never wrote. They just came in as broadcasters, and they already knew that equation that you hinted at, the louder, the more explosive, the more clicks. And, you know, I don't have to name any names for people to figure out who's doing that today. And that never became, it was never our mantra. You know, we had our little pocket of ESPN, half hour on Sunday mornings where you could have civil, intelligent conversation and still passionate conversation about sports.

We still do it today, by the way. We do the sports reporters as a podcast. And myself and Mike Lupica and Bob Ryan are the regulars. And then we have, you know, the other cast members of different people from around the country join us. So we do continue that conversation, and that's really what it was. Much like this is a conversation. I looked at Sunday mornings as a conversation, but we were proud of that show. To this day, I can't tell you why ESPN canceled it, and neither can they, because the guy

who canceled it quit controversially about a few months after he canceled us. So we're never going to get a good answer, but it was doing fine. The ratings were fine. It was sponsored. It was all those kinds of things. And just for some, you know, let's shake things up reason. We were a victim of that, which is a shame because the show was on almost 30 years. Yeah, I wonder if, has there been talks to potentially bring it back as a TV show?

You know, we're interested in it, I think. But I'm not sure that they are. I think ESPN is going through a lot of changes right now. And so I really can't answer that. I know if they called and said, hey, you know, we're sorry that happened. And it's a different regime here now. Would you like to continue doing things on Sunday morning? I think it would be a good idea for them, even to just have that format so that they could pass it on when we retire to younger people.

And it's more the show than us. It's just the tradition of that show. It's like Meek the Press. I can't even name who's on the Meeky Press right now, but I knew it was on it before. And I know its reputation as a quality program. And it's the brand of the show. And I wish they hadn't sort of tossed the brand out with the bathwater. I remember when listening to Jamel.

Hill say that when she got called up, as she put it on that show, it was like the defining moment of her career because she was surrounded by the people that put so much thought. And as you said, these critical thinkers about sports. And I think I could see that working because also nowadays, like we already said, it'd be different. It'd be unique to have thoughtful people having these conversations about sports and life and not going for clicks. who can be the loudest, but having thoughtful, at times you guys, like I said, you'd argue, but you could tell that it was always your true beliefs or what you really thought. It wasn't like, okay, I'm going to take this side, you take that side, and then we're going to go crazy. It was, it was you thought this and Luca thought that, and you guys disagreed.

And that happened from time to time. And I think that that can be, that can work. I really think so. Yep. Well, I think so, too. I just, you know, people's heads turn faster when people are screaming. Yeah. The problem with screaming is, you know, then people get used to the noise.

And then when you try to say something quietly and intelligent, they almost can't hear you. Yeah. So, but I'm proud of the sports reporters, proud that it continues as a podcast. And we'll see if it finds its way back to TV. Well, one more before, you take your boys to college, Mitch, which is so cool. you, I would imagine, get request in person via email, phone calls, whatever may be on a daily basis from people at all stages of their career where they probably ask you for pieces of advice. How do I live better? What does success look like? And I'm curious, are there a couple core pieces of advice that you give to people at various stages of their careers when they ask about living a great life?

or being successful. What are some of those, or maybe the one or two core pieces of advice that you find yourself repeating over and over to people when they ask? Well, especially if they're young. And I do this now a lot with our kids in Haiti because we have a lot of kids. You know, 47 kids there. When I say kids, I mean, some of the oldest ones, ones who are going to college here are in their 20s because education just doesn't work the same in Haiti. And we have our own school now. So we teach the kids and the real young ones are on track to graduate when they're 18, just like American kids.

But when I first got there, a lot of the kids were already there. And we didn't get them right from the start. So you only go to school when you have money. And if you don't have money, you don't go to school. Because you have to pay to go, even the public school there. So I end up talking to a lot of kids who are educationally in ninth or tenth grade, but chronologically you're 17, 18, 19 years old. We talk a lot about what's going to be, what success means. I also have a lot of nieces and nephews now.

I've got I think 17 of them that are in their 20s or early 30s. And so we're constantly having this conversation. And the thing that I say to them the most and the most constant is what I alluded to you at the beginning. First of all, whatever you go into, be humble. Don't lose your humility along the way. Be curious. be asked a lot of questions and just when you get it right, don't pat yourself on the back. Just put your head down and try to get the next thing right.

That's going to serve you well no matter what field you go into. Number two, don't lose yourself in whatever field you choose. You still have to be you. And as someone who is acutely aware of how brief life can be and how temporal anything is, You know, as someone who's lost not only, you know, professor, but, you know, I had a five-year-old girl who became our daughter. And for two years, we traveled around the world trying to keep her alive with a terrible brain tumor. And, you know, lost her when she was seven. And, you know, to lose a child when she's seven years old only shows you that there is no such thing as, oh, I'm fine.

I got plenty of time. She couldn't say that, and neither can you or I, no matter what happens to us five minutes after this podcast. So don't lose yourself in your work. As I lost myself, I think, for a stretch of time in mind. Find out who you are and what you value and make sure you're living that part of your life, as well as accomplishing things and as well as stacking up your achievements. And make sure that there is a balance because you may not think that balance is important now. but that's exactly what leads you to imbalance later on in life.

And I think those two things, no matter what you go into, they'll guide you and they'll make you better at whatever it is that you go into. Everyone thinks you only get better by working harder at your given profession. If you're a writer, if you write for 24 hours a day, you're better than if you wrote for 23. If you're a welder, if you weld for 24 hours a day instead of 23, you're better. But I remember one of the most instructive things I ever learned about what's important in a career. Believe it or not, I was working as a security guard for Pinkerton. And I got assigned to do some protection thing for this photographer. And I, you know, the details of how I ended up in this guy's life are less important than what he told me.

Because I asked him how he got started. And he was very famous, accomplished photographer. And he said, well, when I was your age, there was a guy like me in the world, you know, who everybody wanted to be like. And I wanted to be like him, too. So I took some of the photographs that I had shot at that stage of my life. and I sent them off to him, hoping that he would tell me and give me advice. I said, I waited for a couple months and I got a letter back. And all the guy wrote was, I can see by your photographs that you have mastered the basics of photography.

Now my advice to you is read the best books, listen to the best music, watch the best drama and dance, observe the best art, and everything else would take care of itself. And, you know, I thought that was brilliant. And I have followed that philosophy myself as well. And I advise young people, too, that instead of saying, okay, so now get this lens and now get this camera and now get this body. And then start working on that. He just said, it's what you surround yourself with that will, through osmosis, get inside you and make you better, particularly as an artist, if you just immerse yourself in those worlds and allow yourself to experience them. And I think sometimes people are so concerned about, you know, training, accomplishments and paperwork. Tactics.

You know, yeah, strategy, tactics, that they don't allow themselves to be immersed in influential things like art and creative things around them. And nothing gets into their bloodstream, you know, but work. And work, you need more than work in your DNA in order to be successful with something. So, anyhow, that's a long answer, but that's what I tell people. It's beautiful, man. I love it. Mitch, thank you so much for being here. The long-awaited sequel to the number one New York Times bestseller of the five people you meet in heaven is called the next person you meet in heaven.

Certainly the next bestseller, I assume, for Mitch. It comes out on October 9th, I believe. Yes, absolutely. I need to remember that because I've got to make sure to clear my calendar. Yeah. Well, I'm so appreciative of you being here, sharing your wisdom and knowledge with me. Mitch, I had a blast. And I would love to continue this dialogue as we both progress, man.

Well, I appreciate it. I enjoyed it. And thank you for your interest in talking to me and for all the people who have been listening for their interest in listening as well. Awesome. Thanks so much, Mitch. Okay, Ryan. All right. Wow.

What a thrill for me to have the opportunity to learn directly from Mitch album, someone I've looked up to for quite some time for everything he does for us. others, for his writing, for his thoughts, some of the sports, everything about it. I'm fascinated by Mitch's story and his work. Grateful to have this conversation. If you enjoyed it, I would love it if you would write a review, subscribe, and rate the show in iTunes Apple Podcast. That's write a review, subscribe, and rate it hopefully five stars on iTunes Apple Podcast. It really helps spread the message worldwide. and it continues to give me the opportunity to do this on a daily basis, which I love so much.

Thank you. I will see you next week. Can't wait. This episode is brought to you by Leverage Learning. Leveraged Learning is a great new book by best-selling author Danny Eni. It's no secret that universities and colleges are struggling to keep pace. It's sad but true. These institutions are leaving many of our individual and collective needs for learning and growth sorely unmet. crisis is an opportunity for the experts and professionals who possess the knowledge and skills that are so sorely needed by so many. The solution is to package their expertise into leverage learning programs that creates transformation for the lifelong learners who need them and profit for the experts who create them. Danny Eni, a successful educator entrepreneur, has been

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