The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 279: James Clear - How Tiny Changes Can Equal Remarkable Results (Atomic Habits)

Episode Date: October 14, 2018

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk. Episode #279: James Clear - How Tiny Changes Can Changes Can Equal Remarkable Results (Atomic Habits) Show Notes: "It's important to know how everything works together." Ojai, CA - Circle talking about book writing Atomic = Atom, small, tiny.  Habits should be small "Habits are the atoms of our lives" "It's about the collection of habits" "They are small... but put them together... they compound and are powerful." The system is in four stages.  They stages are: The cue - gets attention The craving - in the brain The response - the habit, behavior The result - what happens Feedback loops - The cookie example "My readers and I are peers.  An essential part of the process is to write about it. Try things out.  Everything I've published has been revised many times." The four laws: Make it obvious Make it attractive Make it easy Make it satisfying The Goldilocks rule - Steve Martin People burn out or get bored.  How to stay motivated... Be stretched just beyond your capacity but not too far. "Always stay just on the edge..."  Steve Martin kept expanding his sets by just a few minutes each time until he had a 60 minute set.  He started small with just a few minutes of material. Make sure you "stretch yourself... just a bit... everyday." Be the person who gets the additional task done How to do this all as a parent? -- "Life is in seasons..." "If you want to double your productivity, get 8 hours of sleep." The plateau of latent potential -- A melting ice cube.  A 1 degree change "Habits don't add up, they compound.  It looks like a hockey stick." "Outcome based habits vs identity based habits." Focus on identity based habits.  Be the type of person who wakes up early and works out. The importance of being able to delay gratification Weightlifting - Reinterpret signals.  "Being sore feels good."  Re frame how you think about something like soreness "Happiness is simply the absence of desire." When you observe a cue, but do not desire to change your state, you are content with the current situation "Being curious is better than being smart." Need to be eager to learn and accomplish things "Your actions reveal how badly you want something" "We can only be rational and logical after we have been emotional." System 1 = feelings System 2 = Rational, math problem System 1 always leads the way The Learning Leader Circle -- Apply Use the "Get To Know You Document" "Being curious is better than being smart" Social Media: Follow James on Twitter: @JamesClear Read: Atomic Habits Connect with me on LinkedIn Join our Facebook Group: The Learning Leader Community To Follow Me on Twitter: @RyanHawk12

Being the person who always gets one additional tasks done each day doesn't really count for much on any given day But it can count for a lot over a 30-year career So it's sort of internalizing that kind of approach and thinking about where does this actually apply to my work So maybe it does apply in a productivity sense to getting one extra thing done each day Maybe it applies in a personal sense maybe it's more about like your marriage and your relationship and how you're contributing to that Can you can you do a 4% better job as a spouse today like? what would that look like? This episode is brought to you by Leveraged Learning.

Leveraged Learning is a great new book by best-selling author, Danny Eni. It's no secret that universities and colleges are struggling to keep pace. It's sad but true. These institutions are leaving many of our individual and collective needs for learning and growth sorely unmet. This crisis is an opportunity for the experts and professionals who possess the knowledge and skills that are so sorely needed by so many. The solution is to package their expertise into leverage learning programs that creates transformation for the lifelong learners who need them and profit for the experts who create them. Danny Eni, a successful educator entrepreneur, has been

leading the charge on this growing movement. In leverage learning, he lays out the guidebook for navigating and thriving in this new world, both as a lifelong learner and as an expert with something to teach. Go to Amazon.com and buy Leveraged Learning, the age of opportunity for lifelong learners and experts with something to teach and buy it today. Welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Thanks so much for being here. It is Mindful Monday. Text learners to 4422. In order to join thousands of other fellow learning leaders from all over the world, text learners to 4-4-222. Now on tonight's featured leader, it's with my friend James Clear. He's an author and speaker focused on habits, decision-making, and continuous improvement. His work has appeared

in the New York Times, entrepreneur, Time, and CBS this morning. His latest book is titled Atomic Habits, Tiny Changes, Remarkable Results. A few of the topics we got into. James lays out the four laws for habit formation. Then how to stay motivated when you hit the dip. That's the rough patch in the middle of building something. And then the difference between outcome-based habits and identity-based habits and why you should focus on your identity. Ladies and gentlemen, this one is so good.

It's James Clear. All right, James, round three, man. We've done one a few years ago. then we got together in person in Columbus in front of about 110 of our closest friends, which was awesome. And now here you're coming back for round three. And I'm so pumped about atomic habits that we can talk more about this book that is now finally coming out, man. Welcome back. Yeah, thank you so much.

I'm glad you're not tired of me. I appreciate the opportunity. Funny story. So I would imagine you probably remember this. We're in Ohio, California. It's 2016. So it's a cup two and a half years ago. I'm standing in a little mini or a little circle.

It's you, me, David Berkus, Ryan Holiday, Jordan Harbinger. And I think James Altisher was there. And we were talking about the fact that you, James Clear, got this monster book deal. And that was two and a half years ago. And here we are in the book is finally out. Just shows the time it takes from selling a. proposal to then the book actually coming on. It's amazing, man. Yeah, thank you. Sometimes it felt longer than that. And then looking back, you're like, well, you know, three years is a reasonable

amount of time to spend on a book. But I learned a lot throughout the process, but I'm really excited for what atomic habits became. I thought that I had a pretty good understanding of habits and behavior change when I started it. I mean, you know, I got the book seal after having written about habits for four or five years. So I covered the topic pretty thoroughly. But what I realized in the process of writing the book is I actually only had about, I don't know, 30 or 40 ideas that kind of fell under the umbrella of how to build better habits. And I didn't really understand how they all connected or what the system or the framework was for how they all work together. And that's actually a really important thing to know how everything works with one

another because otherwise you just kind of have random changes that you're making. And then you're like, oh, why isn't this clicking the way that I wanted? And so it took me actually an extra year to kind of figure that out and get the outline of the book handled and do some additional research. And so I had to ask Penguin for another year and they very graciously gave it to me. So I'm really excited for what the book has to offer because it lays out all of those ideas, but in a framework, in a system that makes them actionable and, you know, and helps you learn how they all fit together. So it's good to be able to say that. I feel proud of it. what I was able to finish.

I can imagine at a high level when we think about atomic habits and really what you do day by day that can then compound. What is that framework? What is it now at a high level that took you an extra year to figure out? Well, so first, the reason I chose the phrase atomic habits is because the word atomic has multiple meanings. So first, you know, it can mean atom, so very small or tiny, this fundamental unit. of a larger thing. And so, of course, that's a big part of my system is the habit should be small. It should be easy to do. But then atomic can also mean like the smallest fundamental unit of a larger compound. So atoms add into molecules, molecules become, you know, larger compounds

and so on. And I think in a way, in a sense, habits are sort of like the atoms of our lives. They're these patterns of behavior and behaviors and rituals and routines that they're like the fundamental units that make up what our daily lives look like. And if you can put the right habits together, just the same way if you can put the right atoms together, you can end up with something really productive, really impressive when you have it all there. But it's really about the system. It's about the collection of habits, not just any individual one. And then the third meaning of atomic is that it's the source of immense energy or power. And that is kind of the ultimate punchline here is that these habits can be very small. But when you put them together in the right

way and make these 1% changes day after day, well, then you can get some really powerful results over the long run. And so in my process of writing this book and trying to discover how habits work and how we can adjust them and design them to our liking, that was when I came up with what is what I call the four laws of behavior change. And so this system that took me an extra year to kind of develop and think through, it has four different stages. And you can break, I think, pretty much any human behavior into these four stages, certainly habits. But I'm not willing to say it's an exhaustive framework of everything that we ever do. But I think it's pretty close. So the first stage is the cue, and this is something that gets your attention, a prompt that signals for you to

start or to perform a particular action. Then there's the craving, which this is the stage where I would say your brain makes a prediction about what to do next. Then there's the response, which is the actual habit or behavior itself. And then there's some kind of result. There's a reward, which is the fourth stage. And this is when you either meet the prediction that you made when you had that craving or you don't and then you learn to act differently the next time. And these four stages, cue, craving, response, reward, you kind of cycle through them and they're a feedback loop. And this neurological feedback loop, the more that you repeat it, the more you learn what to do. And so, for example, let's say that you walk into the kitchen and you see a plate of cookies on the counter.

Well, that's a cue, visual cue in the sense. Now, one prediction you could make is that, okay, you know, this cookie is going to taste good. I imagine it's going to taste good. So I should eat it. So they walk over, pick the cookie up, take a bite, and you get the reward. And if that is the case, then it trains your brain, okay, hey, next time you see a cookie, you should have some kind of craving or some kind of prediction to eat it because that worked out. well. But you could just as easily imagine that say you were having dinner in the other room

and you walk into the kitchen and you had just eaten five cookies at the end of dinner and now you see another plate of cookies on the counter. And you're like, oh, man, I'm stuffed. Like, I don't want to eat anything else. So your prediction is different in that case. Same cue, different prediction. And so your response changes. You decide not to eat a cookie. And so these four stages work together and are happening. It's like an endless process. You know, we think, we often think that life is reactive, but really it's much more predictive. You're sort of endlessly predicting what to do in the next moment. You're seeing something and then you're categorizing that cue based on your past experiences

and your current circumstances and then you predict what to do next. And then based on the outcome of your action, you update that prediction for next time. It's just an endless loop that you're running all day long. Real quick side. No, I was just thinking as you were saying all this, you have studied human behavior. habit formation, the power of the tiny habits. Do you, is this, maybe weird, is this hard to kind of live up to as the guy who studies this? Do you find yourself being measured or judged by those who know you, even friends to say,

look, this is the habit guy. And I saw that you were, as you told me last time, you watched the office for two and a half hours last night. I thought you had, I thought you had good habits, James. Like, do you find, seriously, though, on a separate note. Do you feel a weird sense to have to live up to always having great habits every single day? I got over it a while ago. It was kind of, I wasn't expecting it.

So first of all, I should just say, my approach to this is that I am not some like dialed in perfect expert or anything. Like my readers and I are peers. We operate on the same level, which is that we are just experimenting and trying to figure out what works. And the only difference between my readers and myself is that when I come across something that I learn or something I feel like works, I write an article about it and publish it and share it with the world. So it's just the only difference is that I happen to write about these ideas as I'm coming across them. And I really view that as an essential part of my process that I'm like in the arena, trying stuff out, getting knocked around a little bit, failing.

I think that's important. I don't really actually have that much interest in being like a new age version of an academic in like an ivory tower. And I just like write ideas and come up with theories and talk about how human beings. behavior works, but I'm actually not like trying things out. Like this is why I compete in weightlifting or why I do travel photography. It's why I identify more as an entrepreneur who's building a business and launching products and trying different marketing strategies than just as a writer. I love writing, but my point is that I don't only want to be a writer. I also want to be a practitioner, someone who's like trying things out. And I actually didn't realize what you, the question you just asked,

I didn't realize that people were even thinking that until I started giving more speeches on the topic. And then, like, people would just make little comments and, like, side comments about things like that, about my habits or about something I'd done or whatever. And it's just funny to me, but people expect me to have everything so dialed in. I do think that I have a good handle on, like, some large, important chunks of my life, you know, finances or my creative habits and writing or fitness is one that's, like, really important to me. and I do a good job of working out and training consistently. But there's all kinds of stuff that I, you know, I'm dealing with the same thing everybody else is. So I think I deal with it for a little while, but I'm like totally over it now and I've moved on. So you don't find like you're not judging yourself on a regular basis or even sensing that others are?

Well, they might be, but I don't care. Yeah. I don't, you know, like I. And that doesn't mean. What about Christ. What about Christy? What about Christy? What does she saying James like why did you eat that ice cream or like does that happen?

Uh, no, she's she's good that way. She doesn't like give me that hard of the time with stuff like that. Okay. But people will often ask me if I'm that way. If I'm like, are you really annoying to live with? Oh, yeah. Okay. I'll always be judging someone's habits or something.

And, um, I, I hope not. I don't think she would say so. Uh, but also like I don't, that's not my job, you know, like my job is not to judge somebody else's habits. I'm just trying to come up with a framework that's useful for other people and helpful in some sense. I'm not really even interested in playing that role, you know, of being like the policeman who just goes around like pointing out whether you're following the law of good habits or not. So anyway, so that's that's kind of my question. I got you.

No, I just wanted that as a quick aside because I want to get into there's enough content here for us to talk for five hours. But I wanted to, I think that humanizes it a bit about. you because I think people sometimes can put guys like you up on this pedestal like you are perfect and you've got it all figured out because you write really useful articles that that can be helpful. So you just assume that that person who's able to write in that manner just acts that way or it's or you figured it out. And I think it's in a good way. Neil Pez Ricich gave me one of my favorite compliments ever.

He said the reason I like the podcast is because it feels. like you're learning along with us. And that's similar to what you just said. And I really appreciated that when he said that one, that he listens that much to feel that way. But then say, that's why I think we like it and people like it is you want to learn along with somebody, not just be told do this or do that or this is the answer. When really it's, I don't really say this is the answer. I say these are some questions. And then let's let's do our best to try to answer some of them. Right. Right. It's important to remember that everything I publish has been revised like 20 times, you know? I mean, it's carefully edited and curated. And I want it to be that way because that's how it gets,

that's how it's good. That's how it's productive. You know, if I just spit out my first draft all the time, then it probably wouldn't be that useful. But because of that and because I'm sending the emails to, you know, hundreds of thousands of people or millions people are coming to the site every month or whatever. From the outside, I think everything looks so polished, you know, because you only see the finished product. You don't see the work in process. And that's important to remember, not just about my work, but about anybody's work. I mean, it's not, there, there's all kinds of stuff going on on the back end. So that's one thing I say a lot of times when we hang out with like our entrepreneur friends and stuff. It's just, it's never as

sexy as it looks like on the outside. And that's true, even when you're in the industry and you know some of these people personally. And then you like go and hang out with them for a few days. And you're like, oh, this is like not what I thought it was when I was looking at it from, you know, through the internet. Yeah. All right. Let's get into some of the content, man. Okay. There's a number of notes that I scribbled, highlighted, marked down. So let me figure out where you're starting.

How about this? Okay. Well, let me go over the four laws of behavior change since we cover the four stages. Okay. And we can. Okay. So the four stages, again, for pretty much any behavior, any habit, cue, craving, response, reward. You something gets your attention.

You make a prediction. You take an action. You get some kind of result. And then you update your prediction. for the next time. So from those four laws, or sorry, from those four stages, and this is kind of the backbone of atomic habits, I came up with four laws for human behavior. And each one is sort of like a lever that you can pull or adjust, depending on if you want to build a good habit or break a bad habit. So the first one is associated with the cue. First law is to make it obvious. You want

cues to be obvious to see. If you're looking to break a bad habit, then you want the cues to be invisible. You want to reduce exposure. So first law is make it obvious. Second law is make it attractive. So in order for you to have a positive or compelling prediction about what to do next, nor if you to feel motivated, then the potential outcome needs to be attractive to you. So for good habits, you want to make it attractive. For bad habits, you want to make it unattractive. So that's the second law.

The third law is to make it easy. The easier the response is, the easier the routine or the habit, the behavior itself is, the more likely you are to do it. For bad habits, of course, you want to make it difficult. you want to increase the amount of friction associated with task. So make it easy is the third law. And then the fourth law is to make it satisfying. If a behavior is the first three laws, make it obvious, make it attractive, make it easy.

So make it obvious for you to know what to do next, make it motivating and attractive for you to want to do it and make it as easy as possible for you to do it, make it convenient. Those three things all need to be available for a habit to happen this time. But a habit that needs to be satisfying, the ending needs to be enjoyable, you need to feel successful for you to want to repeat it the next time. If you don't feel successful doing it, if you don't feel satisfied, if there's no positive emotional signal, then your brain doesn't really have much reason to do it again in the future. And in fact, if it's just all sacrifice, if it feels negative, then you actually have a reason to avoid it in the future. Because it's like, well, that didn't even feel that good. So why would I do that again?

So you need the first three stages, the first three laws, make it obvious, make attractive, make it easy to make you more likely to perform a behavior this time. And you need the fourth law, make it satisfying to increase the odds that you'll perform a behavior next time. Okay. The four laws, we got the cues. Now, okay, let's get some notes. One of the things that we were talking about briefly before we recorded that I am a fan of, I will tee it up and then let you hit hit it off the tea for a lack of a better analogy. Okay, so there is a story about a guy who after nearly 15 years of work, he broke through to this wild success.

He toured 60 cities and 63 days, then 72 cities and 80 days and 85 cities and 90 days, over 18,600,000, 600, people attended one show here in our home state of Ohio. 45,000 tickets were sold for his three-day show in New York. He catapulted to the top of his genre, became one of the most important comedians of all time. His name is Steve Martin. And you write about Steve Martin and the Goldilocks rule. And what really the gist, and I'll let you obviously go much deeper here is I think people in general find it hard. to stay motivated.

I think we see something that's bright or shiny. We run towards it because it's exciting. We start something new and then it kind of peters off or we just quit or we stop because it gets hard. Maybe we face the dip as Seth Godin would say. And so I think the Goldilocks rule is an interesting one for us to talk about about how to stay motivated and what we're doing. I'd love for you to dive even deeper. Right. So the fundamental issue, which you brought up, is that people do, they perform a habit for a few days. You go to the gym for a couple weeks or you write four blog posts in a row or you meditate for a week straight. And then they kind of feel burnt out. They fall off course. And this is either because we start too fast, so we take on too much and then we feel overwhelmed or, you know, it's just hard to maintain that effort. Or honestly, in many cases, it's just because people get bored. You know, Machiavelli. has this quote where he says, men desire novelty to such a degree that those who are doing well,

one and as bad as those who are doing poorly. So you can still even be getting results, but you're still like, oh, come on, you know, maybe I should do something new here. I'm getting bored now. So the purpose of the Goldilocks rule is to help prevent some of that, to keep you consistent, to keep you motivated. And the way that I would describe it and what some of the research has shown is that humans experience peak levels of motivation when they're working on a task of just manageable difficulty, not too hard, not too easy, just right. So that's in that goalie lock zone. And the story or the example I like to give to illustrate this is imagine you're playing tennis.

And if you're playing against, you know, a professional like Roger Federer or Serena Williams, well, it might be cool for a minute, but if you're actually trying to win, it's going to get boring pretty quickly because they're going to win every point. And conversely, if you play against like a three-year-old, well, it might be cute for a minute, but if you're trying to play a serious match, it's going to get boring because you're going to win every point. But if you play against someone who's just of your, you know, right around your level, you win a few points, they win a few, you have a chance to win, but only if you really try, that is about the most motivating zone to be in. And that's true for pretty much any task,

any habit, anything you try to stick to in the long run. And one of the challenges of habits is that there's sort of this cycle of improvement that happens where at first you have to become aware of something. So, for example, you become aware of these eating habits that you didn't know you had. You're like, oh, I didn't realize I was snacking so much. Then the next piece is that you have to exercise some deliberate practice. It takes a little bit of effort to change your habits. So now you're trying to do something new, like you're trying to cook a new meal each night. And so that's taking a little bit of effort in the beginning. You have a meal plan. You've got to figure out like, you know, do I have all the gear that I need? Do we need to get some new kitchen utensils? What else do I

need to have available, what times it's going to happen, that type of stuff. And then after you've repeated the habit a few times, a dozen or two dozen or so however many, it starts to become easier. And then you do it maybe a hundred times and you can do it pretty much on autopilot. And at this point, you've reached this stage where often there's actually a slight decline in performance after a habit has been established because now you can do it good enough on autopilot. And so you stop paying attention to whether you're doing it as well as you could or you stop paying attention. attention to your little errors and mistakes. And so at this point, you need like a return to awareness.

You have to close that loop and start back over again and use the habit that you've built as the foundation for the next level of improvement. And the Goldilocks rule is kind of a good way to internalize that because you're always trying to stay just on the edge of your ability. You're winning just enough that you can achieve success and that you're getting some, you're getting some enjoyable experiences. but you're struggling just enough to stay motivated. It's not the same thing every single time.

And Steve Martin did a great job of this as he expanded his comedy routine. So when he started his career, he didn't have much material. And this is true for most comedians. You know, I had maybe like two minutes in the very beginning. And then he expanded that to like a five-minute show by the time he was in high school. And then he started performing at these comedy clubs throughout high school. And gradually, each year, his show would expand a little bit, seven minutes, 10 minutes. at one point he had like a 15 minute show but he was reading like two poems just to get through the whole 15 minutes now at every stage he was keeping some of the winning jokes some of the stuff that he knew would get laughs so he had some success associated with the process but he was always expanding to the next level once he could do a 15 minute show he would go to clubs and get book for a 20 minute show and then okay suddenly he has to have five new minutes of material and so on so the point here is that no matter what the task is whether it's something creative

like comedy or whether it's, you know, trying to get a little bit better at the gym. We need to stay on the edge of our ability in order to maintain motivation over the long run. Otherwise, success becomes too predictable and we get bored. How does that relate to, let's say somebody is, I use this example a lot, but I think the reason I do is because I get continuous feedback from my audience that they live in this zone. But I'll use an example, James, as the 42-year-old mom, who is a mid-level manager at a big corporation. And she's leading a team of 15 people. And it's going well.

Her career has been good. And she says, okay, I got it. I hear the Steve Martin thing. The stand-up comedy world makes a lot of sense. But how does that apply to me? How would that apply to me as a leader of somebody working in a corporation who strives to continue to progress and also have a somewhat of a balanced life because I'm married and have kids and play that role? So how does it relate to somebody like that? Sure.

Yeah, it's obviously it's going to be dependent on each person's circumstances. But so what we're really talking about here is how can you try to achieve like a flow state where you feel fully engaged? in the work. And researchers have, they've been able to quantify it to some degree. They find that usually this state of like full engagement of extreme motivation or intent, peak motivation, occurs about four to five percent beyond your typical capability or current capability. So it's stretching yourself just a bit. Now, most of the time, you know, and in this example, if you're a manager at a corporation, you're 42 and so on like, you know, how can you quantify like, okay, I need to be like, I need to try four percent more than what I usually do.

It's not always possible to track that. But I think as a rule of thumb, the idea that like, okay, I don't need to push myself a lot, but just a little bit, you know, like this is something I write about in the first chapter of atomic habits that productivity compounds. This is especially true over the course of a career. Being the person who always gets one additional tasks done each day doesn't really count for much on any given day, but it can count for a lot over a third. 30-year career. And so it's sort of internalizing that kind of approach and thinking about where does

this actually apply to my work. So maybe it does apply in a productivity sense to getting one extra thing done each day. Maybe it applies in a personal sense. Maybe it's more about like your marriage and your relationship and how you're contributing to that. Can you can you do a 4% better job as a spouse today? Like what would that look like? And I think using that as the question to ask and then maybe brainstorming what some of those behaviors would look like, gives you a little bit of an idea of where you're at and what that might be in your actual life. And again, the key here is that you need to have enough success that you're still, you don't want to feel like you're failing all the time. You know, like stick with some of your normal habits. Stick with things

that are, that feel certain to you and feel routine and consistent. You don't need to abandon all of that. But you're just looking for something that, that pushes you a little bit so that you can learn and explore some new areas as well. I like that. Just get one more thing done or one more task because like anything else you talk about, if you look at that over the long game, the long haul, you can accomplish quite a bit. Don't just view it in the short term. Always play the long game. One of the thing that came up, James, that I think some may ask of you. And I think I read about this online. They weren't writing about you. I believe it was about Tim Ferris, but they said, anybody who writes about or shares productivity tips but isn't a parent,

I don't want to hear anything from them. Basically, how can somebody who doesn't have kids talk to me about morning routines and activities and what I should be doing when I have three kids ages two to 12 that I'm trying to take care of? and this guru who's whatever, 40-some years old with no kids, he's trying to tell me that I can meditate for 90 minutes in the morning, you know, all these things. And I thought, that's a good point. And I wondered what James Clear would say. That's the first thing I thought, too, was I wonder what James would say about this, because you're not a dad yet.

I assume at some point you guys will get there. But I'm curious if you've had any pushback from people who say, James, just wait until you have some kids to see if your habits or your productivity changes. So first of all, just from a high level, I like to view life as sort of like in seasons. And so like this season right now for me, the season before I have kids, it's kind of a heavy career focus season. And then once I have kids, that'll be like more of a family focus season. And there are other ways to divide that too. Like this is a pretty writing heavy season for me right now. And there are a bunch of things that I would love to be good at.

Like I would love to learn a musical instrument. But that's not, it's just not the right time for that season because it would pull away. from weightlifting or writing or career stuff and whatever. And so I have to choose. Like, there are always tradeoffs. And I think that's true not just for me, but I mean, that's true for every parent as well, right? Like, there are tradeoffs. So when I move into my family season, that will be a bigger thing for me. And like, I may have to put my career on hold to a certain degree because of that. And that's just like, that's just how it goes. Like life, there's only a certain amount of time, and so you have to choose.

So part of this from a deep level is like coming to terms with opportunity cost and the fact that life is just, you always face tradeoffs. The second thing they'll say is that I think that's totally valid that parents would feel that way. You can say the reverse as well, right? Like if there is a productivity expert out there that specifically comes up with advice for parents or for someone who has, you know, like three kids under five or something, well, that advice would probably not be very relevant for me.

So, you know, it doesn't make that much sense for me to pull from there. Now, what I usually get pushback on this is when I talk about sleep, because I actually think that productivity tips in general are, it's not that nothing works or that it's not useful. But I think we're talking about with most productivity tips or systems, you're talking about the last like five or 10% of difference. And I think what makes like 90% of difference, like if you want to double your productivity, get eight hours of sleep every night. Like that's the that's step one. And so then I'll say something like that. And invariably parents will come back and be like, well, clearly this guy doesn't have kids. Like you tell that to my like three year old son or something.

And my response is, well, that's fine that you feel that way. But that doesn't mean that this is an inaccurate statement. Right. Like that doesn't, it doesn't mean that sleep is not valuable or that it would. And if anything, it probably would be more valuable for you. And you're just bitter about it because you can't get that right now based on the season that you've been in your life. So it doesn't make it untrue, although I understand that it is difficult to achieve. And yeah, I would say that my recommendation would be like all advice, which is good advice at the wrong time or in the wrong circumstance, is bad advice.

It's not a good fit for you. So even if the idea is good, the job is up to you as an individual to choose which things work for your life and then to leave the rest. true whether you're reading a book or an article or in a conversation with somebody. You know, I mean, everyone's kind of going through this journey on their own experience. And so it's your responsibility to kind of pluck the ideas out that feel like they're a good fit for you. And it's my responsibility to try to share the best ideas I come across and hopefully deliver that in a practical and actionable and helpful way. Yep. That makes complete sense. I know what you mean. I understand from the sleep perspective

too, it can be hard. And like you said, I think that's the same. the key word there is there are tradeoffs. There are, whether and sometimes tradeoffs are sleep or other things that come with with trying to do multiple things at once, which most of us are. The type of people who listen to podcasts are typically, they're curious, they're learners, they're trying to get better and improve, and those types make things happen. And sometimes when you're making things happen, you have to have those tradeoffs. And speaking of that, James, there's a part that I highlighted this morning when I was reading. Because I thought about people who are starting something, whether it's a side hustle or it's your own business.

And we all, because we read and we listen to shows and these great guests who have incredible stories. And sometimes it's easy to, when the story is six years long and you tell it in three or four minutes, there's a lot missed there. And a lot of what is missed is the really tough times. I mean, we can say, oh, I had a failure, and then I bounce back, and here we are, and now we're making millions. And to the person listening, like, oh, wow, that's cool. But then you're going through it, and it's tough. And what you wrote about, it's called the plateau of latent potential. What we think should happen and verse what actually happens.

And the results of our effort are often delayed. And I think this could be a good message slash lesson for people. Maybe make us those of us feel better about, about. the tough times that most creators, most artists, most people doing the type of work that you and I do feel from time to time that it's hard and it takes time. So the way that I like to discuss this concept of the plateau of latent potential is with the metaphor of like an ice cube. So, you know, imagine you have an ice cube sitting on a table and the room is cold. It's like 25 degrees. And you start to heat the room up at 26, 27 degrees, 28 degrees, 29 degrees.

Ice cube's still there. sitting on the table, 30, 31 degrees. And then you get to 32 degrees and the ice cube begins to melt. There's a one degree shift, no different than all the other shifts that came before it, but suddenly you have this phase transition. And I think the process of change, of improvement, of success, of accomplishing a goal is often like that, where you're putting this work in and you're making all these changes, but the result has not shifted yet. You're still looking at the ice cube on the table.

And the point that I make is that it feels like you're sitting on this plateau, what I call the plateau of latent potential, which is that you're building up the potential for a change. You just haven't seen it yet. It hasn't been released. You haven't hit that phase transition. And so in a lot of ways, complaining about working hard for two months or three months or however long and not seeing results is sort of like complaining about heating an ice cube from 25 to 30 degrees and it hasn't melted yet. And it's like, well, the work was not wasted. It's just being stored. You know, and you have to continue to work hard on it. And then eventually you'll reach that tipping point. And this is a challenging thing to experience because when you're in the middle of it, it feels very frustrating.

But this is true for, you know, one of the phrases I use in the book is that habits don't add up, they compound. And it's a hallmark of any compounding process, anything where you kind of have that hockey stick curve in the beginning. in the beginning, it's very flat. All the outcomes are delayed. And so you need to be willing to kind of walk that path for the long run if you want to get through the plateau of latent potential and cross that transition state and get to the other side. And that's the importance of remembering that as you're going through, you're accomplishing something every day, real accomplishments day after day after day. I think of this of recording 22 episodes. before I launched and nobody saw anything.

I didn't see anything other than I had these stored up, as you put it, these stored up episodes ready to be launched. And that took months and months. And then you release it and it slowly builds and grows and grows and grows until it gets. And still in that stage, really, if you think about it, but it takes time for it to really catch on or to be noticed or to have an impact on other people. And I think really that's why it's important, in my opinion, that you have to enjoy that work, or at least have a passion, a care, a deep care, just like you said,

writing your articles, you care about what you write about. And that's why you're able to do it, even if people weren't reading. Because at one point, people were not reading. And then they slowly or maybe quickly became readers. And now you have this core audience. And I think that's what's important to remember as you're in this build stage. I mean, this is one of the distinctions I make about outcome. habits and identity-based habits. I think this is one reason why it's important to focus on

identity-based habits, which in my language would be an outcome-based habit is focused on the result that you want to achieve. So it's focused on that ice cube melting, whatever that is, that finish line that you want to cross, making six figures or losing 40 pounds or, you know, whatever it happens to be. But the identity is focused on being that type of person. So, you know, rather than saying, all right, I want to lose 40 pounds in the next six months, you say, okay, who's the type of person that can lose 40 pounds? Well, maybe it's the type of person who doesn't miss workouts. And now, once you shift your focus to building that identity rather than getting that result,

anytime you go to the gym, it's a success. Anytime you go to the gym, you are casting a vote for the type of person that you want to become. And so you're reinforcing that identity. And you don't have to wait as much for that outcome, for that delay. You're walking through the plateau of latent potential. But you're getting a little bit of encouragement at each stage because you're focused on becoming that type of person. And I think that there's a lot of research that talks about how delaying gratification can lead to better results in life. It tends to be the kids who delay gratification show up with better social skills as adults and higher test scores and higher paying jobs and a bunch of other things.

But part of me wonders if the people who are good at delaying gratification are actually just good at finding all ways to be satisfied in the moment, you know, whether that's casting a vote for being that type of person or having some other form of reinforcement that is immediate so that they feel successful then so that as they're going through that plateau of latent potential, as they're spending all this time, you know, studying for four years to get a degree or showing up at the gym for years on end before their body like measurably changes, that it doesn't just feel like a sacrifice to them. It doesn't just feel like, oh, I'm stuck on this plateau. It feels like, yeah, I'm getting something positive out of this along the way.

And then I also happen to get the long-term games as well. Speaking of that, I think this relates. We'll see. I, you like me, we lift weights frequently. Most days I do. And I would say most days I'm sore. My body or my muscles are sore. And I actually feel bad if I'm not sore.

at least a certain body part that I've lifted within the last couple of days. Do you feel that sense? I know you're a big power lifter. I see you in the gym. Is that, does that correlate with what you're talking about, you think? Yeah.

Well, one of the interesting things is once you start to adopt an identity, like being a weight lifter is part of my identity now. It doesn't feel like a hassle. It just feels like, yeah, I go because that's who I am. And like I feel,

I legitimately feel, bad if I don't go physically and mentally. Well, so I think this is part of that. Okay. Like once you adopt a new identity or that is internalized, it, you reinterpret signals. So like normally, if someone goes to the gym and they feel sore, that feels like a signal like, oh, this is terrible. I don't want to do this anymore. But you have now trained yourself.

It means something different. It means that like, yeah, I'm doing the thing that I should be doing. So my wife, Christy, she sent me a text earlier this week. And it was in the morning. We had trained the night before. She's like, I'm so sore today, but it's the best kind of sore. Because she knows that we worked out. So like it's the, all of a sudden, you're reframing the way that you think about something.

And I think that there is a power there to shifting your identity in that way. But anything that I do that reinforces the type of person that I wish to become, I feel like that. is a positive vote for me. And I, yeah, I just feel good. Okay. No,

I can hear you thinking, which I like. Okay. Let's get into, so what I often do when I get a new book is do a glance through everything, table of contents. I look and then I always look towards the back first

because sometimes there's some cool little nuggets you can find that the author adds in. And I think you have done this in atomic habits. And there's, I like life lessons that some, some may not. I've seen articles written about people shouldn't pay attention to those things. I like them. You write little lessons from the four laws. And I want to point out a couple of them and have you expand on.

Are you cool with that? Yeah, let's do it. All right. Happiness is simply the absence of desire. And I want to comment real quick and then hear you say it. So I think when I, when I first read just the bold headline, and happiness is simply the absence of desire, I thought that's not true.

But you kind of answer in the book and I'll have you. The reason I say that is because I am happy most of the time, but I desire for more almost all of the time. And so let's say that could apply in almost any context. And maybe that's unhealthy too. So I'm not certain of that. But I feel like I can be both. And I'm curious for you to expand on that.

Well, so it might be possible for you to be both in different areas of life. Like you could be really happy with how your marriage is going. And you could be, you know, craving or have a strong desire career wise or vice versa or whatever, you know, whatever, divide it up,

chop it up however you'd like. But okay, so the point that I'm trying to make here. And again, this comes back to those four stages, is cue, craving, response, reward. And this one is largely tied to the craving, the prediction that you make before you take an action. So one way to think about this is that the only reason that you take an action is because

you have some kind of craving or some type of prediction that you should change your current state. So if you are happy with your current state, then you have no reason to shift. You have no reason to change. And so we could say that happiness is the absence of desire. You don't have a desire to be somewhere different, to feel something different. So, for example, if you observe a cue, if you observe somebody saying something online or, you know, a meal across the restaurant or a person walking in front of you and you have no desire to change to shift your state, then you are content with the current situation. You're just observing cues and not feeling anything that you want to change differently.

And this is, of course, the opposite of what advertising often pushes on us, which is that they're throwing these cues in front of us, an email in your inbox, an ad on a billboard, a notification on your phone screen. And all of these things, these commercials, they're telling you, you should be in a different state. You should want something different than what you are now. And when you have that feeling, then you have a craving, a desire that needs to be fulfilled. And it's only after you've taken an action and fulfilled that desire that you have relieved it. This is one of the roles of the reward or the fourth stage, which is that it satisfies the craving that you had before. And when that craving is satisfied, well, now you're content. Eating might be the most straightforward example of this.

You know, like let's say that you have a plate of pasta in front of you and you're hungry, you haven't eaten in a few hours. well, you have a desire to change your state. You keep eating bites. And then eventually, after you've had enough bites, it's like you take that craving down, that desire down. And soon you're like, okay, I'm full. I don't want to eat anymore. So now you are content.

You're happy again to use the language that I'm using here. So in a sense, there's this quote by Cabe Budrus that I like, which is happiness is the space between one desire being fulfilled and a new desire forming. And I think we could also say, likewise, suffering is the space between craving a change in state and achieving that change. So that's how I'm defining it based on these four laws. And of course, this can happen in a split second because, you know, I've broken the stage down into four steps, but it's happening endlessly and can be very quick. Yeah. When you explain like that, it makes a lot of sense. And I think the food example is

the very simplistic yet effective example to use in that case. Okay, another one that. that you obviously won't be surprised that I certainly believe in, especially when we were talking last time we talked about how to make hiring decisions, because there's a lot of managers listening and they make hiring decisions. And they always say, like, well, what are we looking for? What are we looking for in the person to fill whatever role? Or what are we looking for in a person just to be on my team? And you write that being curious is better than being smart.

And this is one that, you know, I agree a thousand percent with. And I've found that over time, my initial curiosity has grown so much more as I've learned more. I've realized as I've learned a lot more. And I think put it into warp speed over the last three and a half years talking with 280 plus incredible guests like yourself is that I've learned a lot. But I've also learned that there's so much more that I don't know. And that's where, and that just fuels the curiosity and makes me want to know more and more and more in a good way. And so I'm a firm believer in that one as well. Well, so intelligence or being smart is just a trait, it's a quality that you have.

Now, it does not drive action. What drives action is desire, craving, prediction, what we just talked about. So you need some kind of desire, in this case, that is being curious or eager to learn in order to take an action. So I feel like I see this a lot, actually. It's just the people who are curious, like, how does the software program work that figure out how it works and how to use it? It's the people who are curious about a topic. Like, you know, what do I need to read about diets and nutrition? And then they read like five books and they start to figure it out and like, you know, they learn how it works.

And this is almost exclusively driven by curiosity and not. raw intelligence. And in fact, the person who is curious and eager to learn over a lifetime will end up taking many more actions and in many cases becoming more intelligent than someone who just has raw capacity but lacks the curiosity. So I like the quote from Naval Ravikon where he says, the trick to doing anything is cultivating a desire for it. And like, yeah, if you don't have the desire to act, then you're not going to bother with the action of the routine or the habit itself. So curiosity is sort of like a prerequisite for learning and learning is sort of the ultimate

hack for dealing with life better. Your actions reveal how badly you want something. This is, I think, a critical one when you look at somebody's calendar, assuming their calendar is accurate of what they do. That's why I think it's a good behavior. And I encourage others when I speak with them to update their calendar after the fact to make it accurate so that you can review over the course of maybe, a week or a month to say, what did I actually do? Because your actions reveal how badly you want

something. I'm far more impressed by people who do it than the ones who talk about doing it, even after the fact. Let your actions speak for you. I think Robert Green talks a lot about that. But that's a big one, James. I think your actions reveal how badly you want something. Well, there's sort of a larger or one level deeper, higher conversation about this, which is related to like signaling. And so often people don't actually want the thing that they say they want. What they really want is to appear to want that thing or to do that thing because they know to get praised for it. So for example, you know, like if you look at a bunch of like dating profiles online, everybody says they like, you know, like hiking and being outdoors and doing stuff that's active. when really most people just want to like sit on the couch and watch Netflix and order

takeout. But they don't want to cast that signal even though that's what they want to do because they know people get praised for being in shape or for being active and fit and so on. And so they want to appear to be that kind of person. Reading is a very common one, especially amongst like a lot of the entrepreneurs that we hang out with. You know, people want to, they want to be able to say, I read 100 books this year. But what they are really looking for there is like the, the. praise of having that signal rather than like, okay, but what did you learn? I'd rather read five books and take something deep and useful from it than just to cross that off. And so this comes full

circle here with this line. Your actions reveal how badly you want something because many people want those signals. So they're like, oh, I know I need to get in shape because they want the praise and approval and respect that comes with that. But then they don't go to the gym because they don't actually want that. What they want is what's convenient and what's easy and what delivers more immediate gratification. And so they say something is a priority, but they never act on it. And so the action reveals how badly they actually want it. And I think at that point, it can be really helpful to have an honest conversation with yourself and just be like, okay, you know, like what is really important to me? I keep saying that I want to do this thing, but I'm not actually doing it. And this was

something that I had to like take my own advice here. I talked about writing a book for like two years before I actually signed the deal. And eventually it was like, all right, dude, you keep talking about this. Like, you need to actually step up and figure this out. You know, like get an agent, write a proposal, submit the book and let's, you know, let's get going. So I, that seems to be a recurring theme for me, by the way, which is just like a more personal insight into my work and how I operate.

But I can have like a long lead up to things. And then once I, it can take me a while to get going. Once I get going, I can be all right at it. But like, it's, it can take me a while to get started. You told me yourself on the first time we recorded, I never, never forget, the friction is typically at the beginning. It's lacing the shoes up. Once you're out on the run, you've built up momentum. You've already started.

You can keep running. But the hard part is getting the shoes on and getting the run, beginning the run. Yeah, this is almost always true. There's greater friction at the beginning of a task or a project than there is once you're moving. Then you've got momentum. It's actually even true in a physics standpoint. If you have like a block of wood and you have it on a desk or a table, the coefficient of friction is higher when it's static when it's not moving. Once the block is moving, the amount of friction that experience actually decreases slightly.

Man. Okay. One more. This one's interesting, especially for the people who are leaders. And I think of this happening in a meeting room. So you're in a conference room with all of the leadership team. and something comes up. A piece of bad news is shared, let's say, which happens, unfortunately, probably every day in the corporate world. We can only be rational and logical after we have been emotional. And you'll hear praise sometimes for CEOs or leaders that they have this very measured, almost at times, non-emotional. response to bad news, or at least they don't freak out, right? Or even as a quarterback, I was told you've got to be composed.

You can't let anything bother you. You know, when you walk into the huddle the next play, you have to have confidence. You can't be too emotional. You can't let your emotions overcome you. And that's why it's funny to me sometimes when you see a quarterback throw a great touchdown pass that they briefly lose their mind in a good way. They celebrate because they know how hard it is. I mean, it's so tough.

And so you just kind of let go for a little bit, like, oh, God, I've been bottling this up. It's been so hard. And then we finally scored a touchdown. And then you have to kind of get back. So release of the previous 14 planes. Yes. You know, you know. So what do you think about this?

We can only be rational and logical after we have been emotional. Okay. So this line came from some of the psychology research that I was taking a look at. And there's a very common. It's called dual process theory of the brain. It's kind of that your brain is divided into two processes or systems. So thinking fast. Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman was the book that kind of put this thinking on the map and made it popularized.

But you've got System 1, which is feelings and rapid judgments, sort of your, you know, instant intuitions or feelings about a situation. And then you have System 2 in the brain, which is your rational analysis. So like, you know, calculating a hard math problem or counting how many times the letter A shows up on a page or something like that. Now, the point here is that System 1 always leaves the way. the primary mode of the brain is to feel. And the secondary mode is to think and to calculate, to analyze. And so your first response is always the fast, non-conscious, feeling, anticipating, rapid thing. And then your second response is the slower, more conscious thinking process.

And there actually is some really fascinating research, a researcher and scientist named Antonio Demosio, a neuroscientist, who he worked with patients. that had damage to a region of the brain that essentially reduced or eliminated their ability to feel, emotion. And they could have a conversation like normal. And you would ask them, like, you know, are you going to meet, you know, Lindsay at 2 p.m. next Wednesday. And they would be able to have this conversation and say like, oh, yeah, you know, I should meet her then. But then they would just endlessly debate like, well, maybe I should go to because then that would be able to. be a good time because it would be before my, you know, appointment with the doctor or whatever. But maybe I shouldn't go to because then, you know, like I need to drive all the way across town and

sometimes I hit a train on the way and whatever. Like they, and they would just go on for, they would never make a decision. And so the fascinating thing that DeMazio realized here was that it's actually emotions feeling something. Even when we look like we're being logical and cold, feeling something, your emotion is what marks a decision. It effectively like signals. This is the one you should choose. And so, you know, if you're a quarterback and you're going through your progressions and you're looking at, you know, first receivers covered, second receivers covered, third receivers open, there's some kind of split second emotion or feeling there where you're like, yes, this is the one. Then you pull the trigger and you throw. And it feels really quick.

But this is true for a CEO sitting in the boardroom as well, that you have some kind of gut reaction or feeling that this is the strategy we should follow. And so the, the, the, point here is that the emotion always leaves the way and your rationalization or your logical judgment for why you chose that thing only comes afterward. Gotcha. Okay. Again, I could go for hours, man, but I want to be respectful of your time. You're in the midst of this massive book launch. I'm really excited for you, man. Obviously, again, I've bought multiple copies and I'm appreciate of you sending me an early one to read through. And again, I've said this before, but I think listeners know the difference when I have somebody on who has written a book and the book is fine

and I'll mention the book. And then there's the difference is when there's someone who has written a book that I love and actually read, I will say, buy this book. And this is the case. This is a book that, I mean, honestly, it could be life changing for people, especially if you adhere to even just just a few of the, a few of the key. but understanding the framework as a whole, I think we'll build actually a better self-awareness, James, in a weird way. That's the sense that I got from reading this book, as well as I've read obviously a lot of what you've written over the years. And I think that is a critical skill to develop when it comes to habit formation, human behavior is understanding self and why you respond the way you do and how to build better habits. And that's what your work is all about, man.

So I highly recommend people buying and reading this book and then putting it into play, actually taking action to make a change. And that's what you're all about. So I really appreciate you taking, one, investing more time with me here for the third time on the show. And obviously put in the book out for all of us to learn directly from you, man. Well, thank you so much, man. I really appreciate that, Ryan. That means a lot.

I'm glad you found it useful. and if folks are interested in checking the book out, they can just go to Atomichabits.com. So thanks again for the opportunity. Yeah, man. Atomichabits.com. All right, James, obviously we'll be talking. I'll come up to Columbus again and get some good pizza with you or something. It'll be a blast.

Hopefully, maybe we celebrate after the book comes out and you can cool down a little bit. Nice. I'm looking forward to it. All right, man. Thanks, James. Every time I talk to James, I learn. so much. I've been fortunate to meet with him in person a number of times and we got together with his wife, Christy, my wife Miranda and I went and met with him for a great dinner in Columbus recently

and they're just great, great people. It was so much fun to record another one with him today. If you enjoyed it and found it useful, I would love it if you would write to review, subscribe and rate the show in iTunes, Apple Podcast. That's write a thought. full review, subscribe and rate the show, hopefully five stars in iTunes, Apple Podcasts. It really helps spread the message and continues to give me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. I'm so appreciative of that. I will see you next week.

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