The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 286: Phil Jones - How To Build Your Squad (The WHO In Your Life)

Episode Date: December 3, 2018

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk 286: Phil Jones - How To Build Your Squad (The WHO In Your Life) Show Notes: Commonalities of sustaining excellence: Ability to see things through the eyes of others -- empathy Create and articulate a shared vision Create momentum for others Build your squad -- The WHO in your life His mom said, "Be careful, go get a job and be safe."  She is the right person in the wrong place. We all need: Cheerleaders - they put fuel in our tank Role modes - someone's model to follow Mentors - someone to share experiences with Coaches - they ask us questions Trainers - they teach us skills Advisors - overall strategy Aspirational peers - Peers you look up to and want to spend time with "Success leaves clues."

Opportunities everywhere. People are so protective of their IP, they're so protective of their ideas, they think this is mine, mine, mine, mine. All the time you keep it is mine, it can't spread. Whereas the second that you take the transparency towards where you've had successes in your life and share them with others, little pieces of those rub off on other people and guess what? It comes all the way around. It's when people have a scarcity mindset that they limit their own beliefs. This episode is brought to by Mugsy Jeans. Mugsy Jeans are the most comfortable men's jeans ever made. That's no exaggeration. After I bought a couple pair, I so badly wanted to learn more about them. So I called there's founder and CEO Leo and asked them about them. And he said

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Type in the code L-E-A-D-L-E-A-D lead for $10 off at mugsygreens.com. Welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Thanks so much for being here. It is Mindful Monday. Text learners to 4-4-2-2-2 in order to join thousands of other fellow learning leaders from all over the world. Text learners to 4-4-2-2. Also has some cool giveaways coming for those in the Learning Leader community.

So text learners to 44222. Now, on the night's featured leader, the great Phil Jones is back, author of five international bestselling books, and the youngest ever winner of the coveted British Excellence in Sales and Marketing Award. Phil is currently one of the most in-demand assets to companies worldwide, also has a cool partnership with Audible that we talked about at the end of this conversation. A few of the other topics we got to. How to Upgrade Your Personal Operating System. Then how to prepare and lead an effective meeting at work, including a golden tip on how to create an agenda. Then Phil shares minor tweaks you can make to become a much more effective communicator.

We covered that and so much more with the great Phil Jones. All right, Phil. Welcome back, man. It's good to have you on a learning leader show again. Good to be back. It's always a delight to chat with you. There's so much going on. So I was trying to figure out where to start, which is interesting speaking to the guy who talks about where to start.

But I'm curious, man. So last time we discussed from a selling perspective, excellence, and I want to broaden it out and zoom out a bit. When you think about people in general, leaders specifically that you've worked with, because you've been all over the world. You speak to audiences large and small with leaders in all shapes and things. sizes. I'm curious, when you have distilled down those who sustain excellence, what have you found to be the commonalities among those people, specifically when it comes to the leaders? Okay. I'm just thinking on this, and I'm scribbling on a post-it note in front of me right now as you write that question just to make sure I can try and get something concise to you.

I think there's two big things. One is this belief that they understand that their job is to their audience to show me that you know me. It's this, you can see things through my eyes, you understand what it's like to be able to be me, and then the result of which is you have empathy. I think that's one commonality in all great leaders is they have that ability to be able to actually always see things from the other person's point of view, whether it's the staff member, the team member, the supplier, or the client. And then outside of that, the one other thing that is common is excellence is created when they can both create and articulate a shared vision, that what they can do is create something worth getting behind that is bigger than any one person. And when that's all in sync

and moving together, that's where momentum is created, because when momentum is running that way around, the friction is almost non-existent. And if there is any friction, it just gets rolled straight over it. It's like no problem is a problem. Without those two things, what happens is things start to niggle. They start to be able to almost create unnecessary frustrations and unnecessary friction that then starts to be able to create a resistance in the other direction. So it's those two things more than anything that I'd put heavy weight on. It's that show me that you know me in relation to every key stakeholder that the leader touches and the ability to create and articulate a shared vision that people can get behind so everybody knows they're

pulling in the same direction towards the same thing. Okay. So speaking of that, You write about where to start and leaders, leaders, founders, people building something have to figure out where to start. And one of the things that I read that I highlighted from exactly where to start is that you need to do a couple things that's upgrade your operating system and build your squad. And to me that I think of this phrase just called the who. Who is the who in your life? And so could you expand upon, Phil, how one would go about upgrading your operating system and building your squad? Well, let's start with the building your squad piece, right? So this is getting complete clarity on who the people are that are in your life and what they're there to be able to do.

One of the big mistakes that many people make is that they go to the wrong people with the right questions. And the best example I can give towards this was something that happened in my life, like many, many, moons ago that when I was starting and founding this business and it was challenging and it was full of obstacles, I was having conversations with somebody I loved dearly, which happens to be my mother. And what my mum's advice was, was, oh, be careful and wouldn't you be better to go get a job? Now, I would have to listen to my mom's advice because I'd put her in a position of leadership in my life and many moons that had come prior to it. However, what I realized is I had the right person in the wrong place. And we find ourselves in this in all areas of our lives, in that what we have is we have

a variety of different people that are all within our circle, but we haven't taken the time to consider what are those people for and how can they help us get closer towards the thing that we're looking for? So when I sit and I look through the work that I've done in the past and exactly where to start, I categorize people and think they need to exist in all sorts of different areas. First being like cheerleaders, we need people to put fuel in our tank as we go. Who are the that we want to assign the role of being cheerleaders to be able to encourage us to support us, to just say, good job, keep going, who are our role models. These are the people that we can look up to, that what we can do is that we can take guidance from, sometimes even afar, just by following and

modeling their behaviors or actions. Then we've got mentors, and mentors are great because these are the people that can talk to you from their experience. They can share his or her experience. They can talk directly back into your life, saying more along the lines of what I would do if I were you. Then we've got coaches. Who are the people that are going to ask us the questions we're not prepared to ask ourselves? Who are the people who are going to be able to help us to stay the account? We've got trainers who can teach us the skills that are missing, because we all have missing skills. We've got resources. Resources are like the people in my business, like my accountants, my graphic designer, my bookkeeper, my legal team, my expert advisors

in other areas. That then builds into saying that we do have some advisors that we need to have to be able to make our big idea real. And then probably the most important group of all is our aspirational peers. These are the people that we like to be able to hang around to bounce ideas often, even like our conversations side to side, Ryan, that we speak to as our careers develop together, is I class you in that category of aspirational peers. It's somebody purposefully that we can put into our lives and provide us with just a sounding board and somebody that you can look towards and say, hey, they're doing great. How can I do more great? to and that we can all rise up together.

And I don't think people take the time to actually allocate those roles, articulate those roles towards other people and actively go out and find those people in order to be able to make that count. Now, the operating system part is something different. I don't know if we want to dive straight into that right now. Yeah, I want to get to operating part next because there's one thing when you talk about aspirational peers. So we're in a speaking group together.

And one of the things I noticed, Phil, among the community, and there's only a few hundred people in this, so it's a, it's relatively small, but a very engaged group online. One of the things I noticed on a regular basis is how much and how frequently you are giving to that group, constantly serving up useful nuggets for all of us. And I, in a way, I'm trying not to be cynical, but in a way I was wondering, Phil is constantly helping. everyone. And I thought, is that just part of your DNA? Is there a strategic element? Or are you just naturally someone who likes to lift other people up? I'm curious, what is your motivation behind sharing so much of sometimes very, I guess, not intimate, like when it comes to a relationship? But you know what I mean? It's very detailed, inside details about your life and your profession and money and everything. And I'm curious, what is it in you that makes you want to share in

helps so much. I'm a big believer that success leaves clues. And there was a profound piece of advice that I got through a proxy role model, I guess, in listening to Zig Ziglar as a kid. Now, in listening to Zig Ziglar, it was the road to greatness is to find a way to serve the many for service to many leads to greatness. Not only that is then that builds out with if you help enough people get what they want in life, there's a good possibility that you might get what you want in life, right?

So that those things are in true. And I've followed and practiced that kind of belief system for decades now. And I found that it somewhere kind of works its way out. And I cannot understand how it's never directly correlating. It's not a linear process. It just tends to come around in one way or another and the rising tide lifts or boats. But there's more to it than that is if you want to be a leader, whether it's leading a business, whether it's leading an audience, whether it's leading a sports. team is a leader's role as a servant's role. And our job in leadership is to be able to serve

the people around us and help give them what we have that might help them to get what they want. And I cannot walk by somebody that I care about, somebody that I've decided I'm going to commit myself towards that if I find them in a position where they've got some darkness and I can shed some light, then I would almost feel like I was doing something. it wrong like I did a bad thing by letting that go and not give to something that I could have given to that that's just my mindset that's just my makeup sometimes it gets me involved in things that I probably shouldn't you know it's not a perfect science I sometimes get myself carrying somebody else's monkey which I should have let go straight on by but the detail side of things is is I mean

opportunities everywhere people are so protective of their IP they say protective of their ideas they think this is mine mine mine mine mine all the time you keep it as mine it can't spread whereas the second that you take the transparency towards where you've had successes in your life and share them with others, little pieces of those rub off on other people and guess what? It comes all the way around. It's when people have a scarcity mindset that they limit their own beliefs. I love it, man. And I've been the beneficiary of it, both our one-on-one talks as well as you in that group.

Okay, so how about the operating system? I think this is a touch about the way in which we talk to ourselves. We, well, certainly me. I say we, it's unfair for me to say that everybody. But I know I work for one of the most demanding leaders in the world, which happens to be myself. I have the ability of being able to talk to myself in ways that is kind, is fair, is purposeful and helpful. I also have the way of talking to myself that is really freaking mean sometimes. like I can beat myself up real hard if I don't consciously get involved there and reboot the system in some way where I can naturally focus on all the things I did wrong all the things that aren't happening life all the things that aren't going right for me I can find myself there sometimes and I never want to be there so knowing that periodically what I have to do is to intervene on that and make sure that what I am speaking to myself is is with kindness with fairness and purpose helps me to be able to grow and this means that what I can do is it's

is I can give myself the ability to have like a permanent thought in the future. So it's kind of asking myself what needs to happen in the future? Where am I going? How is this going to help me get there? It's also having hypothetical mentors. And hypothetical mentors allow me to have more important conversations about myself. And this is really a version of what would so and so do or what would so and so say if they were thinking about this. So I take the example of many of the people that I put on a pedestal, but let me just use a simple non-descript example.

A huge mentor in my life was my late grandmother in my early, earlier years. She would be the wisest person that I could ever speak to about anything. So sometimes what I do is I give the questions I need to ask myself her voice. And naturally, as a result of which I am more considerate about how I answer because I've already decided I have huge respect for that person. And do you try to answer in the way that she would or the way that you would just using her voice? I would answer in the way that I would, but to her or with her and issue. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Okay.

Because oftentimes we're actually, we give advice to others when we hear of their questions, sometimes struggles and issues. But then we don't always take our own advice. Exactly. There's a question that comes at me a lot. and this question taught me a lot about both myself and also then how I articulate answers to others. In an advisor's role like I often find myself in, I get questions coming my way that is, what's the best way to do X, Y, and Z? Now, this question of what's the best way to me is a giant limiting belief all by itself,

because there are no best ways. And I talk to my audiences when I speak about, like, if you want to do good at something, you want to do better at something, or you want to do your best at something. or you want to do your best at something, which one would you pick? And the majority of people say they want to do their best. And then you speak to people in the world of sport. And they're like, I tried my best. And don't worry, you tried your best.

And what I've learned through that is even the labeling of something is saying your best is a giant mistake. Because best itself is saying that there is a finite period of time. There is an absolute measure of things that says the best is complete. It has all of the components attached to it. And that's utter nonsense. See, when you say to yourself, I tried my best, or when somebody asks you the question of what's the best way, that actually ties up all creativity, ties up all movement towards progress. And it says that there's a right way and a wrong way of doing things, which isn't absolutely true. What there are is multiple ways of being able to do things on what more people should focus it on is what would be a better way of being able to do something.

And if we focus on better, we create movement. I wonder if we just take a simple little example like tying your bootlaces. There was a point in time in your life where that was probably pretty hard, probably quite a difficult to be able to do. And I bet there was a voice inside or whether it came out loud that you said to your parents or wherever it was guiding you, look, I can't do it. I'm trying my best. The only thing that allowed you to actually be able to get past that ability of not being able to do something was when you decided internally.

I tell you what I'm going to do. I'm going to work on getting better at this thing or somebody coached you to get better at thing and now all of a sudden I'd imagine you can tie your boot laces. I wonder how many conversations we could be having with ourselves and instead of saying let me try my best or what's the best way or how do I try my best we could just be saying what can I do to be better which frees up another question which I think is important in our own mind particularly when you're stuck is to ask yourself the question of how could I benefit from not doing this procrastination is stopping people from making progress. And quite often we believe with great conviction that there is massive benefit

towards doing something. Yet still, because of the lack of decisions that we've actually made, we still take no progress. We take no action. If you can answer yourself the negative question of saying, how could I benefit from not doing this and realize that those benefits are either meaningless or non-existent, sometimes that raising of the bottom can free you up to be able to take more action. So how we talk to ourselves is remarkably important. Okay. You are recognized as truly one of the greatest sales professionals in the world. In fact, youngest ever winner of the coveted British Excellence in Sales and Marketing Award. And some people, when they hear me start talking about sales, I've gotten feedback on this.

They shut down a bit because they don't work in sales. But this is precisely why I want to talk about it and why I want to talk about it with you. You're the perfect person. because for the person who's currently shutting down, because they hear sales and they say, I don't work in sales, this is why this is for you. Every single person listening to this right now works in sales in one way, shape, or form. We are all in sales almost or pretty much every single day, whether you're selling yourself, selling ideas, or maybe you do actually have a quota and you have to hit and you do work in sales.

You've written a whole book about this, you speak about this, you know, that you've written the sales guide for non-send, sales professionals, expand and share why we are all in sales every day. What sales is is two things. One is we are decision catalysts. That's what we are as salespeople. Our job is to be able to help people make their mind up, perhaps even professional mind maker uppers. My dictionary definition of what selling really is is earning the right to make a recommendation.

Isn't that leadership? Isn't that putting ourselves into a situation where we've earned the respect of other people that allow us the benefit of being able to guide them because what they've decided is that our way is the way that we're going to be going because it's better for them, not better for us? And every single person, everywhere in the world is selling something. Might be a product or a service, but more often than not, it's an action and outcome, a behavior. Something we want to see different. Perhaps it's even change. The world of business is about navigating change. we are all change makers in some way, shape or form,

our ability to be able to actually get other people to see the world through our eyes or to be able to pivot in a new direction to do something in a different way or for a different purpose is everything. That's how stuff happens. So if they think about anything that's ever happened to them, you think about anything that's ever happened to you

is probably because somebody or something interrupted your life and allowed you to see things through a different lens. That's what selling is. Selling is allowing people, to be able to see things a slightly different way and therefore take a slightly different action because of the way you've helped them see. And I think this is what everybody's looking to be able to do.

Yet it is something that everybody is looking to run from because their belief system says that selling is a bad thing. Now, when I work with live audiences, one of the things I ask them to do is to throw adjectives at me. Throw some adjectives at me that would describe a stereotypical salesperson. So be as mean as you like right now and say the words that come front of your mind. mind, Ryan, as to what are the words that would describe a stereotypical salesperson?

Use car, snake oil, sleazy, cheat, lie. Right. Because that's the image that gets conjured up. And they may have had a bad experience. Well, we've all had bad experiences, but we've all had good ones too. But let's just run on this one more second. If we take those words and somebody use those words to describe you or they saw that in you when they make you for the very first time, my guess is you wouldn't feel too good.

No. What if by alternative, though, I don't ask you to reach for adjectives that describe a stereotypical salesperson. Instead, I ask you to reach for adjectives that describe a professional salesperson. How do the adjectives now change? Thoughtful, caring, empathetic, good, they ask me great questions. They care. Right? Yep.

So here we are. If people were using those words to describe you, they saw that when they saw you for the very first time, then chances are you'd feel very different about it. Why is it when I change one word, you change them all? See, I don't understand why people think so badly about salespeople and it isn't in fact salespeople that are the bad thing. It's the thinking about salespeople that are the bad thing. And the beauty of this is, is that when done right, you don't feel like you've been sold to. So that's why that label doesn't get attached to it. I promise you this, if anybody ever says the words to you that you are a great salesperson, that my friends is not a compliment. It means you've been caught trying to sell

something to somebody. The goal that you're looking for for a job well done as a professional salesperson is merely the receipt of the words thank you. That's what we should be looking to chase. Is chase thank you's not dollars? And here is a mindset shift that I'm going to bring towards people just when we think about sales as a profession. If you're in the wedding dress business, when do you think the day is that most wedding dress businesses celebrate the sale after the wedding it's when it should be when do you think it is the day they sell the dress the day they swipe the credit card right see this is what happens in too many business environments is they celebrate the transaction as opposed to the result of the transaction and that's when people are trained to

whoop and holler hey we close the deal now that transaction was a tiny little step on the journey, but it's the thing that gets all of the focus because people chase the money as opposed to the results of what the transaction could do. If you're in the wedding dress business, yes, the day they try the dress on and think that this looks and feels beautiful as a good day. It's an important day, but it's not the most important day. All the days that follow when they work through the tailoring and the trimming down and the fittings and the second fittings, they're all important. The day they pick the dress up, that's an important day. But perhaps the most important day is how does the dress perform on the wedding day?

How did they feel in it on the day? But you know, if you're super smart, you realize that's not the most important day. The most important day in the wedding dress business is not the wedding day itself. It's about the moments. And the only way the bride can get to experience the moments that they really experienced on the wedding day is after the wedding day itself in the photos. The photos are, in fact, the most important day that the wedding dress business should be involved in. If you're in the wedding dress business, the finish line isn't the transaction. finish line is, let's hope this looks good in the photos. And if that can be the mindset of that

business all the way through the transaction is that what we're looking to be able to do is to make sure that this bride is delighted with how this dress looks in the photos, then guess what? We can understand what being in service of a customer really means. And we can sell towards a different finish line. That changes the process in its entirety. Now, the same applies to whether you're a leader. If what you're trying to do is to focus on the transaction of somebody taking this new job, somebody pushing in the new direction, somebody agreeing to take on board this project, then we are just as basic as the wedding dress shop focusing on the swipe of the credit card. If you can focus your efforts on the result of the action or the changing behavior that you're

looking for and chase that rabbit instead, then guess what happens? You receive thank yous at the end of the transaction because you put the date at the right time, the finish line in the right place, and the whole thing changes up. And I think that's what more people should do to think about selling is what are they looking to sell? What is the result of the result of the result? It's the like almost everything in life. In fact, I'm not sure if I found a time when it's not true. It's the people who play the long game sustain excellence.

Correct. They do. And in all professions and the wedding dress selling profession or any other, the ones who, the ones who play the long game, who think long term, who build real relationships, who actually get thank you notes and gifts when that when the one of the, Phil, like some of the proudest times for me is when I get a thank you note and a gift from somebody that is actually paying me money for my services. That's cool. Right.

That's that's that's that's that's that's that's. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's building a real relationship. That's playing the long game. That's not thinking transactionally. And I think there is no. real hacking to this. It's having a genuine care and thinking long-term success for that person and how you can help them do it. Let me make this as simple as I possibly can for the listeners, and I'll share a piece of personal information here, is I was unsuccessfully married once

earlier on in my life. I'm now seeing myself as successfully married and got married to my beautiful bride 18 months ago. And when I got unsuccessfully married, and I got unsuccessfully married, and then very promptly divorced, I wanted a wife. That's what I wanted back in my youth, and I thought it was a good idea, and I wanted to get married. When I chose to get married again, I decided I wanted to be a great husband,

and I wanted to be married for many years. The two very different things, and that same level of difference or transparency can apply itself to dozens of other areas of your life. It's not what you want to have, is what do you want to be and what do you want the results of being that person, being that thing to look like over a sustained period of time, not what do I want to have in this moment? Hmm.

That mindset shift of focusing on what you want to be versus what you want to have, I would imagine, is everything. What, and if this is too personal, don't answer. But what are some of the ways that you have focused and actually put into. action, like tactical things that you do to be a great husband? I think it's not even so much of what are the things that I do. It's how do I think? It's putting myself second.

It's having the foresight towards what I want the future to look like for us. It's me removing obstacles from my wife's way, as opposed to labeling obstacles that exist in her way. It's considering that things that I don't adore about my other half's personality, etc., things that I'm going to train myself to celebrate rather than to look to find ways to be able to label or call out. Because I'd expect that same thing about me. There's certain things in my behaviour that I'm not going to change, certain things in my psyche that I'm not going to change. And I want those things celebrated. So I guess I should practice what I preach and try and try and celebrate those things in the other direction.

And this isn't in any way suggesting that there is any perfection in regards to the way that I run my marriage, but more of the mindset and the thought process that says, I'm going to take personal ownership and personal accountability as to what can I do and what can I think and who do I want to be as opposed to outwardly looking at the other person and saying, what do they need to change, what do they need to be, what do they need to need to kind of move around to be out of meet my needs and demands. I mean, really, before you can lead anyone else, you've got to take care of yourself. Yeah.

I think that's what you're talking about is exactly how to think. I will say, for the first time in my history of talking to you, I feel like you always know exactly what to say, unless, unless I ask you about your marriage, which is awesome. I mean, it's cool because you're human, man. You're relatable. I think that I can hear you thinking. and that is interesting to me. Cool.

Well, I'm glad to be of service. I'm definitely human. Sometimes you don't seem to be with the accent and the perfect. I think last time we talked, there was no, I mean, there was not a second of a flaw, and that's really hard to do, man. I mean, I mess up like 50 times per episode, and you can go an hour without doing it at all. I mean, it's quite impressive. Well, when you've delivered 2,500 speeches through a professional career of 11 years of speaking

to audiences on stage, you get pretty tight on your messaging and you, and repetition is, is pretty powerful. It's no different to a basketball player that can shoot hoops all day long and get the ball to be able to land in. They've done the reps. Yep, got the reps. Speaking of speaking, you recently put, had an Instagram story of your prep process before a big speech and it was written, there was a bunch of words written with arrows and a, and a kind of a, a direction. you were going. And I'm curious because I have a real specific process on how I get ready before I go on stage two. And I like to analyze from those who are who are phenomenal at this like you. What was that? What was that process? Try to bring that to an audio, an audio audience here of what you were writing and how you prepare for a speech. Okay. So what the picture was was a handful of very short sequences. of words, one, two word, a statement, some form of label, then with a series of arrows between those words. And sometimes there was words written over those arrows. And they snaked down a page of like a,

like a Moleskin book folded in half, going against the grain of all of the lines on the page. So it ended up turning it almost 90 degrees round on the book. And that became kind of a visual mind map of me preparing for speech. Now, what those words are are, um, bits. So a comedian would talk about their bits, right, whether it was like a, you know, a tiny little story or a joke or they would class it as a bit and they'd build a set around their bits. What I realized through my career is I've got literally thousands of bits that I've developed as material. And each of those bits I can tell us like a 30 second version of it, a three-minute version of it, a 30-minute version of that same bit. I can expand it or contract it as I need to.

I can also take those bits as if they're ingredients and then re-juggle them around towards every given speech. So I view myself almost like a chef in the kitchen. When I'm preparing for a speech, what I look towards is what's the overall outcome or goal? I write that in the middle of the page so that I stay on track with what actually the one big takeaway is. And then I think about how am I going to get there. And I plan an opening and I plan a close and they sit at the top left and the top right of this page. Now what I do is I play a game of snakes and ladders is how I'm going to get there from bit to bit to bit. And I'll just write a label that helps me remember that's the bit.

And then over the top of the arrows, what I might do is I might use some circumstantial segways. The basic way that I write any given speech is that I tell a story, I make a point, I make a point, I tell a story. I tell a story, I make a point, I make a point, I tell a story. I tell a story. I make a point. I tell a story. I'll repeat that pattern for as long as I need to, whether I have 12 minutes or three days. and it keeps it interesting, it keeps it up and down, across the arrows of the segways. They're my moving pieces. They're my transitions of how I get from one to a next.

And some of the labels are points and some of the labels are stories, but they're pieces that I've done a number of times over. So what I'll end up doing is I'll write that out once in rough as I'm working on the speech and I'm kind of doing my pre-work that might be days ahead of that. speech and then in the morning of the day itself that I'm looking to be able to deliver that speech, I'll rewrite that same diagram, which is the one you saw on my Insta story from memory. And that gives me the confidence of saying, I got this today. I know where I'm going.

What about visuals with that, like a PowerPoint to support it with visuals? How does that come into play? Well, firstly, I write every speech as if I don't need visuals. Gotcha. But you do use them, though, correct? Or no? 40% of the time. Okay, okay.

And this is why I do it this way around is because the environment is a giant factor that goes into every speech. The size of the audience, the mood of the audience is a giant factor as to what I'm going to deliver for every speech. Now, I'm delivered. I delivered a speech two weeks ago in Montreal, 1,800 people, IMAG following me around the room, two giant screens, LED backdrop, everything, everything. If I didn't have an abundance of slides there and didn't have a slide next to be able to support it, what would they show on the screen for the gaps? Here's the other issue, though, is in a big audience of that nature and me knowing that I'm going to leave the stage and I'm going to interact with the audience for a significant part of my presentation, if I'm asking them to be able to make a decision over is the slide important or am I important for the audience to be able to see at that moment in time, I've created a conflict in the presentation. So what I really look to better do there is to minimize a number of slides knowing where do I want IMAC to be able to fit in so that everybody in the audience can see me even if I'm in the crowd. So actually what I do is I then look to limit and maybe run to just holding slides.

If what I am is I'm in a smaller workshop environment and there's 65 people in there and there's one slide deck that runs in the corner of the room, I might use a full deck to be able to support it because it allows me to stay in control and stop somebody in the audience being able to try and segue me, segue me something. somewhere else so I can use the slide deck like it's an ally. So I can deliver every presentation I've ever delivered without slides. I can deliver every presentation I've ever delivered with a multiple slide deck. I can deliver every presentation I've ever delivered with something in between two, which is why the props come second. Sometimes I might decide I use a slide for something. Sometimes I might decide I use a flip chart on stage. Ironically, I might use a flip chart on stage with the bigger audience because there's a camera that can zoom in on the flip chart. So everything's different. Sometimes I don't make those decisions in

until the night before. Because I've got to see the room. Yeah. And then I've got to fill the energy of what that room is like. And there's different levels of intimacy attached to things too. I can make the same point sat on the edge of the stage, having a conversation with the front row. Or I could make it in full formal settings that stood center stage with my arms out open and making a giant point. So these are choices.

And I think that's what happens when I go through my final run through of what you. you saw is all those little micro choices are things that I make then. And because I've made those bold choices as if I was in the moment, although I'm not yet in the moment, when I'm in the moment, I'm ready to be able to repeat the choice that I've already decided I'm going to make or decide to do something different in the moment, but it's still conscious. Let's relate this to a lot of the people listening now, Phil, because I could talk about this aspect for the for an hour, but I want to relate it to for, let's say this person who's listening has four. 14 people who report to them.

They work in an office and they meet once a week with their team and they want their meetings to not be boring. Okay. And part of the meeting is they're going to stand up and give some sort of talk. So there is a little status update. Typically, we understand that. But there's other parts that could be inspiring and useful and help kind of get the troops on the right page, right? And know where we're going. I know I may be over my skis here,

but what advice would you give to that person who is not a professional speaker who usually only speaks in environments like that, but they want to have meetings that are different, different than what they went to when they were an individual contributor and now they're the manager, and they want to have great, great meetings. And there may be other things you have about just meetings in general,

but I'm talking about the part where they're speaking, they're working with their team to get their message across, What advice would you give to that person? Okay. So firstly, the chances are they've done these things in the past, and they're listening to this right now and thinking, I want to dial it up and I want to be different or I want to be better than I have been in the past. That's the context that I'm going to accept here right now. Yep. So if they want this to be seen as different to the past, the first thing they have to do is to create an environment that is different to everything that's being done in the past.

So this might mean changing the meeting room. This might be having it as a standing meeting rather than as a sitting meeting. It may even be just flipping the room 180 degrees and having people looking at a different. wall. It may be moving the room from being long ways to sideways. It may be changing the table formation, but do something to give yourself a chance of a change before you even open your mouth. Start there. Then the thing to be able to understand is every given meeting is that people's head is somewhere else before the meeting always starts. And actually, the start of any presentation you ever deliver is interrupting them. Even if you're interrupting thought, you are

interrupting something that's happening in their world. So what you need to be able to do is to politely start a conversation with some form of contextual opening that says, shut up and listen, it's my turn right now. That means that you almost need that little bit of a ramp up. Think like a musical song. If a song is three and a half minutes long, it doesn't come straight off the bat with pumping energy. It leads you into it a touch. So what you might want is a short anecdote story that creates context that lets people understand what the importance of the information that's going to follow. Now, if that contextual story can start with some form of intrigue, and they want a simple set of words that can actually allow them to be able to start that story, what if you just

started the story with, I was thinking about today's meeting? And one of the things that I was thinking ahead of time was, now what they're realizing is you prepped for this. And that you can tell a wandering anecdotal story that sets the scene for the meeting that's coming for the next 20, 25, 35, 40 seconds. Now what happens is because you've laced up with curiosity and intrigue, you've captured their listening, you've captured their attention. Next step is sell us on the outcome of the meeting before you've even started. So what I want to talk about today is blank, blank and blank, but not I want to talk about processes and procedures.

I want to talk about the changes that we need to make in our point of sale system and I want to talk about the changes in infrastructure within personnel, you say what we're going to learn today is how we're going to make three big changes that are going to result in us increasing our efficiency and improving our bottom line. So actually, get us focused on the benefit of the change before we talk about the change. Now we've labeled the purpose of the meeting. Follow the same structure that I mentioned a second ago. Tell a story, make a point.

Make a point, tell a story. Tell a story, make a point. Make a point, tell a story. then summarize the whole conversation with so we've done bang bang bang bang bang bang bang and then don't make the biggest mistake that almost everybody makes at the end of a meeting of this kind of nature they finish week and here is how almost every corporate meeting finishes of this nature they finish by saying do you have any questions you know stupidest set of words ever I write about this in exactly what to say and I talk about some simple swaps that you can

change with language if you finish a conversation with the words, do you have any questions? What are you saying to the subconscious mind of the other person? Well, the first thing you're saying is that you should have questions. However, the belief that we've just had in the presentation we've just given is that there probably shouldn't be any questions, but we phrased a question under the guise of the fact that it's going to sound like you should have questions. Also, by saying, do you have any questions? What we're openly saying with that statement disguised as a question is, I didn't tell you everything I needed to tell you, which loses your credibility.

Yet what we were looking to be able to do is to put impact and change in place. Instead, what we've done is we've impart information. If we want to move this towards a forward facing outcome, swap the question, do you have any questions to the question, what questions do you have for me? And you watch how everything changes. When I say, what questions do you have for me? Almost everybody in the room is likely to say no questions. Or if they have got a question, it's the one that's front of mind that provided some friction

that stopped them from being able to move. So you say what questions do you have for me? They say no questions. We say, great, let's do this. And you see how that finishes a meeting on the up. Whereas if the meeting says, do you have any questions? No, no, no, no questions. No questions.

All right, okay, good luck. The finishes on the dam. Changes everything. Yeah. That is a perfect kind of manual real quick. And I don't know how much thought you put in it beforehand. But that's a perfect manual, I think, to I almost want to pull that and have that transcribed for people. Because I think that comes up so much.

But what I will say, when right. Let me just add one thing on that comment, is I made that up on the spot. Yep. And I made it up on the spot because I know that the worst time to think about the thing you're going to say is in the moment when you're saying it. And this same thing is true for thousands of leaders' conversations. They think what I'm going to do is I'm going to make this up on the spot. Now, you can't make things up on the spot efficiently unless you've made them up not on the spot

a number of times in the past so you can recall them from memory. So it means that do put the time into thinking about the thing you're going to say before you say because words matter. You've got 12, 13, 14 of your most important people in that room in front of you. If you're there for 40 minutes,

this isn't 40 minutes of your time. This is 40 minutes times 14, which is nine hours. That's a whole day's worth of productivity that you are responsible for in that moment, treat it as a whole day's worth of productivity, and I bet you'll get more ready for that conversation. Well, that's what I was going to say that this is all about the prep. Like most things in life, it's all about the prep. And sometimes that prep is years and years and years that

go into each one of those meetings and then certainly even more focused preparation and getting repetitions before that meeting. The problem, I think, Phil, and why this doesn't happen and why we've all sat through a lot of meetings where they did not go like you to describe is because there was about five to ten minutes of preparation where maybe an agenda was written up and that was all the thought that was put into it. And then we meander into the meeting room and they kind of slowly get the meeting started. It never really goes anywhere and everyone's looking at their phone and then any questions and then we're out. And I think that's the problem is as for those you who are managers, like anything else, whether you're getting ready to get on stage like Phil or you're getting ready to

lead your weekly meeting is it's all about the preparation and think about that beforehand because go ahead. I'm going to give a golden tip on agenda for a meeting and I think this is going to be more prevalent to leaders and to salespeople, but it works in a sales focus session too, is if you are preparing an agenda for a meeting, leave space for two more items and leave bullets for them. If the agenda is going to form part of the structure for the meeting, start the meeting with these words. I was thinking about our meeting and I've prepared an agenda. Then ask the question, is there anything anybody would like to add?

Now, if you start in that position, who's in control of the conversation? You've got full control from the get-go. And if there are any what else is, you've got the what-else is out there up front. You've left the space on the agenda document for people to be able to add them that you can say, okay let's get to it love it it just gives you a little bit more control and it's same with that preface of words i was thinking about our meetings so i've prepared an agenda has anybody got anything they wish to add yeah you've already put yourself three steps ahead of everybody else because you were thinking about the meeting yeah very useful that's exactly like i like the

phil these are my favorite types of conversations because we get high level and then we zoom in and get very tactical i want to zoom back out for for for the last portion of this so I couldn't help but notice online. You had a theater event that was exclusive to Audible. And I just thought this was incredibly cool. And I love to hear more details about this, your Audible event, because I may listen to books on Audible all the time. And the real interesting thing, too, is last time you were on, so I'm going to jump

around a bit. Last time you were on, you talked about exactly what to say. And one of your goals was to get it in the hands of, of a million people. Right. And then it's funny, and over the past, because you're on more than a year ago, which is crazy how fast time goes. But anyway, your book, exactly what to say, has become one of the most popular books

on Audible, the version, obviously, that people can listen to instead of actually reading the book. So I would imagine that that was part of the reason why, and I'm curious, so two-part question one, have you accomplished that goal yet of a million people, which, you? It sounds like you either have or you're close to it. And then two, how did this come about with the theater event with them? Okay. Have I accomplished the goal of a million people?

I can count to this point in time just over 300,000 units of exactly what to say exist in the world in some way, both in terms of print, audiobook download, Kindle download. So those numbers combined around 300,000. Congrats, man. That is awesome. Congratulations. I don't know if any of those books have been shared. dead. I don't know if other people have been able to impact it, but I'd like to have a million

units in the world, and I give myself five years to do it. So we're about 16 months in, and we're at 300,000. If I can keep momentum going, then that mission might be accomplished. The audible deal is bigger than all of that. And I'll explain why. I started this business back in 2008, and I started out of the passion of a problem that was very real at the time. So the world that I was in was in the small business world and I was coming out of a successful business that became unsuccessful overnight through a pivot and a change in the economy and we had to bring that down. And while I was wondering what to do with my time and where to go next, local networking groups and chambers of commerce, etc., were asking me to come in and deliver speeches and talks

towards their member bases to help them trade out of a recession. Now, those talks resulted to me then saying, what do I want to do next? And I built a one-day sales workshop program that was helping largely non-sales professionals and small business owners to wrap the head around how they could acquire more customers, get more from the ones they've already got, or get the customers to come back more often. And this workshop program did particularly well. I built the foundation of my entire business out of this one-day workshop, built a coaching business off the back of that business, then started to speak to be able to fill the workshop to be to grow the coaching consulting business, then started to get paid for speaking and then built the

books and then went on tour. It was kind of the lifeblood of my business. And there's been a thread in this one day workshop through my entire professional career in this space over the last 11 years. However, where I'm at right now, I don't have the capacity to deliver too many 12 people, 15 people, 16 people, 23 people, full day workshops. Not only that is the biggest challenge and obstacle that exists to the majority of small business owners and even sales professionals in the workplace is taking your day out to learn new information is a big ask. I've also learned another challenge is that you can deliver people or the information in the world in a one day program. They're only going to catch some of it. So through those years, I've had many people come back to the same

program three, four, five times, take different action points each and every time and it'd be valuable to to the meet and every time. So I've learned about the power of repetition. So we've got time constraints. We've got a repetition need. We've got financial obstacles for the many, for them to be able to pay what they need to be able to pay to learn the information that they need to.

And forever, I've been thinking about what do I do with that content to better get it into the hands of the many and to create the most accessible sales training program that exists on the planet. Historically, over the years, I've had success through CD programs and other things. but by success, I mean mild commercial success and reached a few thousand people. With exactly what to say, crushing it on Audible.

And my passion for audio being the primary way, I think most busy people like to learn new information, more so than video training or anything else, I said about a strategic plan to create a partnership with Audible to bring to life this big idea of mine. And the components in the backstory are plentiful. You don't just secure a deal of that nature overnight, but decided it was what I wanted to do, got to learn and understand the strategic vision of audible, got close to a handful of people, met other authors who've done the same,

got personal introductions into key editors and people at the time waited for the right time when exactly what to say was doing remarkably well, to be able to get my window of opportunity to pitch my big idea, got them on board to be able to accept it. And here's what we ended up doing, is we've created the first ever audible original

that is of a live training workshop produced for the purpose of the audio listener and we're creating an experience that means for the listener it feels like they're in the training room but really what they have is they have a set of ear pods or whatever in their ear listening to the workshop but they're spoken to like they are part of it. It's not the recording of a workshop.

It's delivered like they're part of the audience. And this comes out in January of 2019. We've got my full day program that's now going to be available for the download price of an audible credit. It may even be free for a window as part of the audible original series. And we're going to, we're going to shoot for it. We're shooting to be able to create the most accessible, high value sales training content that has existed on the planet, all for pennies to be able to get access to that I think could change the way that people think about selling. That's the goal. Comes out mid-January 2019. Anything more you want to know about it?

What was, what were you feeling the few minutes before going on that stage? Oh man. The most nervous I've been for a gig in my entire life. I bet. And here's the biggest reason is my editorial team, Audible, just kept saying like, you got this. They never saw a script before I went live. There was no predetermined manuscript that they were like, we've greenlighted this, go deliver it. It was they took my big idea, put all the trust back in.

me to be able to produce it. Now, we had 10 hours at the theatre. We had eight hours worth of content to be able to get. 40% of the day was planned to be live interaction with audience. And the audience were no stooges and nobody was being put there as a plant. It was delivered live in real time where we had really the chance to be able to create one take and maybe a handful of pickups if the audio quality didn't catch it on the mic properly. That was all we had. And I had to create an experience that felt like it was magic on the day, but largely with the purpose of saying that we are creating an audible product here. We're not running a live event.

Coupled with the fact that the dynamic variance of people with the audience, which is what I wanted because I was creating a sales workshop for everybody, ranged from my mother-in-law through to senior production staff at Audible, to leaders of financial services firms within the city, to real estate agents, to health and nutrition companies, to professional photographers, to friends and peers within the speaking space.

I had as most varied audience that could possibly be and had to make it fit for everybody in the room that they felt like the program was delivered just for them. So there were a lot of moving parts and all everybody would say to me is Phil, you've got this. Like they didn't know what I had. But yeah, it was nervy, it was challenging. And also I was using material that was familiar with me, but repackaged in a completely different way and removing all the things that would typically make me safe. there was no PowerPoint. There was no slide deck. I'm in a theater environment. It's dark inside. The delegates don't have tables. They're in theater seats. This is, imagine you're coming to a comedy show, but it's me on stage with the lapel microphone and nothing else and a big giant naked stage

and a bar store with a glass of order on it. And I got eight hours to run at this. It's not a 60-minute show. So that dynamic was interesting to work with. And, um, I'm proud of what we put out. I'm really proud of it. Wow. What did you do when you were done? Well, here's the thing is a lot of friends came into town, right? To come and show their support.

And they booked a restaurant around the corner and they're like, hey, come on. Like come. You're to be just dead, weren't you? And I was beat. Yeah. And, you know, I was up in the dressing room afterwards and my wife was there and Drew Tarvin was there who helped emcee the day who was exceptional. And my good friend Sylvie de Gistow was there.

I flew two of my team in from the UK to be able to support. And they came up and said hi. And I sent them out on their merry way and said go enjoy New York on me. And Henna and Tyler were there from Audible who'd been with me through the whole thing. And I gave them some thank you gifts and a big hug and appreciation towards what they did to help make it a reality. Pop my head into the dinner around the corner, said a few hellos. My wife delivered a delightful speech to thank those guys for their support. And yeah, then we.

We went around the corner to a tiny hole in the wall bar, me, my wife and my brother-in-law, and we laughed and giggled about just the stupidity of how much my life has grown through the years, which was fun. And then we got a taxi home, ordered pizza, and I'd be it on the couch. Good for you, man. Some of the inside stuff is cool, just to see how, you know, when we go on stage, you perform. And I can't even imagine performing for a full day. I mean, after an hour, I know I just lay down.

And I remember just wanting to sit there. So I can't even imagine. But I think because you put so much into it, right? You got to put everything you've got into that time that by the time you're done, you're just zapped, man. You don't have anything left. Well, there's one thing that I don't think many people will know on the program too is, is we had an issue midway through the performance where New York can be quite a noisy place.

And construction kicked up in the building next door. Like, loud drilling. And obviously, we're producing this performance for Audible. So La La LaLau drilling is, you'd deal with it if it was a live workshop. You'd use it, you'd make a prop of it, etc. But it doesn't play out well in the finished recording. So Hannah Blesser runs next door and Sweet Talks them into stopping for a few hours and buy some sandwiches and gets them to stop construction, etc.

But this whole piece of the program was missing. I've got to the end. I'm exhausted. I've just finished the interview at the end. I think I'm done. And they come and tell them where we have some pickups to do. Do we want to try and get a new audience back? can do it on another day or do we do it right now?

And I'm like, let's do it now. Let's get this thing done. And they're like, oh, do you want to listen back through the recording, see what it is that you need to do? I'm like, no, I got this. I just say to Drew is the MC. Can you preface the point in time where we need to pick up from and just throw me the ball like we're playing catch in terms of the point?

We're like, hey, Phil, can you tell us about blank? And then I'd just pick it up and run with it. and I never knew I knew my material as well as as well as that test at that point in time, is having been done, having been exhausted down to the eighth degree, is to be able to record 23 minutes worth of additional pickups at that point in time, just with a, to use a soccer analogy, you know, you cross them and I'll head them in, you cross them, I'll head them in. And we did like seven or 11, like individual pickups of two to three minute

bits of content that were all one take and done, one take and done, one taken done. And that was almost a proud takeaway from the other speakers who are in the room that said like, hey, the whole day was something. But that thing you did at the end, how you did that, I don't know. And that was a reassurance to me, like, I think I know my stuff. Well, it's awesome, man. I love it. And obviously, we're going to continue our dialogue as we both progress. I'm very grateful. for your giving nature and helping me personally as well as helping so many others. Where would you send my audience to learn more about you at this time, Phil? I think, you know, website's always a good place to go to get the canned corporate version of who this guy is.

So philm.jones.com is somewhere they can come and stop by. Social media is a good place to come and find the real me. Instagram is only ever me. We don't outsource that to anybody or have any additional support. So come check in there if you want to join a couple. conversation or two. And anywhere that you Google my name, as long as you put the M in the middle, you'll find resources tools, other interviews, articles that I've written, et cetera, and dig into some of the books, if that's of interest to you. Well, I appreciate it again, man, and I'm already

looking forward to the next time we record. Perfect, perfect. No, pleasure being on the show, Ryan. Thanks for keeping it real one. Congrats to you as well as I see your career continue to grow. and this show is certainly one of the best shows on the internet. So keep up the good work. Thank you, man. I appreciate that, especially coming from you. All right, Phil. Thanks, man.

Thank you, thank you. All right. Wow, that was an enjoyable conversation on many levels. I appreciate the fact that Phil was willing to get personal at times, to zoom in and out to get practical and tactical, as well as share high-level points of view. philosophies so useful. I really enjoyed it. If you did, I would love it. You would write a review, subscribe, and rate the show in iTunes Apple Podcasts. It's write a review, subscribe and rate the show

five stars, hopefully, in iTunes Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to the show. Also, I would love it if you would spread the message. Share this with somebody else who may have never listened to a podcast or hasn't listened to this one yet. I'd greatly appreciate it if you would share it with them and see what they think. That's how this thing continues to grow as it has, and it's all because of you. Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity to continue to do this on a daily basis.

I'll see you next week. Can't wait. This episode is brought to you by Mugsy Jeans. Mugsy Jeans are the most comfortable men's jeans ever made. That's no exaggeration. After I bought a couple pair, I so badly wanted to learn more about them, So I called their founder and CEO Leo and asked them about them.

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That's M-U-G-S-Y-J-E-A-N-S dot com to get a pair of the most comfortable men's jeans in the world. And to support the Learning Leader Show, they've created a code. It's lead, L-E-A-D. Type in the code L-E-A-D lead for $10 off at Mugsygreens.com. Yeah, you sound good, as always. Good man. Man, let me just kick off anything here as well that's going to be beeping in our faces. Do you use a mic?

Yes. I was going to say it sounds good. Yeah, I use a mic and then my computer will ding and ping right next to the microphone if I haven't turned off alerts on Facebook off, email off, all those kind of things. So how are you doing anyway? Things are good with you? Yeah, man. It's been really good. Looks like you've been growing and crushing it and everything you're doing. And since last time we've spoke, things have got progressively better.

That's what it looks like from my point of view anyway. Thank you. Yeah. Well, obviously, same to you, man. I mean, I saw the audible thing going. I'm going to ask you about it when we're recording, but that's pretty cool. Yeah, it's exciting. It's real exciting.

Okay. Is there any, obviously got the books and appreciate your team sending to me and got everything else. I mean, I have a framework here, kind of talking about books, process, both writing and speaking. I mentioned to you on Instagram. I love those notes and I love kind of sharing some of the behind the scenes notes of how you prepare because we've talked about exactly what to say and we'll talk about selling and starting. But I was also thinking about your prep process. You can talk to me about anything you think will be useful for your audience. My goal on my least favorite thing to do on podcast is probably your least favorite thing to do on podcast too, which is to do

that stereotypical interview that is, okay, let's just talk about the book and what was the inspiration behind it and what are three things that people can talk about. Tell us your story. And like, let's see what we can do to serve your audience. You know your guys. Well, you're one of the best hosts that I've come across in the podcast world. I trust you to take it anywhere you need to. And you can dig into anything in my past, anything in my history, anything in my future. Any way you want to go with this, I'm good to make it a real conversation for people. there's nothing in particular I'm looking to be able to promote as such. I'd much rather people are just interested in saying how do I find out more about Phil

and then they can pick up on a book or book me to speak or be interested in having a further conversation with me depending upon what's right for them rather than he's doing the podcast to plug a specific product. Perfect man. Well, I love it. And so I like I said, I appreciate that by the way, the kind words. That means a lot, especially coming from you. but I'll just have general thoughts from really all of your work.

So we'll probably bounce around, man. And it'll just be like if we were normally having a normal call, just we weren't recording it. But the only difference is we are and we'll share it. And I think that dynamic of us following our curiosity will be useful for people. Cool. I hear you. I'm ready when you're ready.