The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 288: Robert Greene - The Laws Of Human Nature (Part 2)

Episode Date: December 13, 2018

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk Episode #288: Robert Greene - The Laws Of Human Nature (Part 2) "I knew at eight years old I wanted to be a writer. It took me 30 years to find the right ideas. Everybody has a primal inclination." - Robert Greene "If you're not excited about the field you work in, you'll learn half as much." -- Robert Greene www.LearningLeader.com

You are not entitled to anything. Nobody would respect you just because you have a title. They might be a little bit afraid of you. They might think, well, my job depends on you. But they don't really respect you in any deep way. You have to earn it. You have to earn everything that you get from people. You are not entitled to one iota of respect or obedience from the people you lead.

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That's M-U-G-S-Y-J-E-A-N-S.com to get a pair of the most comfortable men's genes in the world. And to support the Learning Leader Show, they've created a code. It's lead, L-E-A-D. Type in the code L-E-A-D-L-E-A-D-Lid for $10 off at Mugsygreens.com. Welcome to the Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Thanks so much for being here.

This is a different episode than normal. This is part two. of my conversation with Robert Green. We decided to break it up into two to ensure maximum levels of learning. If you had not listened to the first part of this conversation, go back to the episode previous to this one and check that out.

In this part two, we cover how to master our emotional self. How to resist the law of conformity and differentiate ourselves from the crowd. And then what we can learn from Queen Elizabeth to make us a better leader and create desire for others to follow us. Again, Robert Green shares his wisdom and it's so good. Ladies and gentlemen, it's part two with Robert Green. There's a story about Paracles.

Is that how you say it? Yes. I say that right? Yeah. Okay. So really about mastering your emotional self. And when I, too, work with leaders and entrepreneurs and business owners and leaders within businesses. And one of the first things that we, we always tackle, we cover is, is really

personal excellence, leading yourself before you could lead others. And this story reminded me of that, and I'd love for you to go into more depth, but basically the fact that, that we all need to master emotional self and we all need to worship something. And for him, it was, again, probably pronouncing wrong, noose, the ancient N-O-U-S, the ancient Greek word for mind or intelligence. Emotions turn us inward and away from Nuce. Pericles trained himself to never react in the moment, to never make a decision while under the influence of strong emotion. And I found that great leaders, and perhaps I learned as playing quarterback too, if you get too flustered or you're not measured or you're too caught up in the emotion, you make poor decisions. And that could be bad as a quarterback and certainly bad in the boardroom and leading people in a business.

And that story, I think, really hit home for me and I think would for other people when it comes to understanding how to master your own emotional self. Yeah, it's a chapter on becoming rational. And my idea is that we're not born rational. We're born as creatures who are largely governed by our emotions. And we have to train ourselves to become. more rational. It doesn't mean that emotions are bad. Emotions are not bad.

You would not be a good quarterback if you also didn't feel angry at the fact that you messed up that last pass and you've got to get it right this time or that, you know, you want to beat that other's team or that you want to excel at something. These are emotions that are positive, but they must be channeled and they must be controlled. And what Pericles is discovered as a great statesman and athletes. Athens in 5th century BC was that it's extremely hard to master your emotions when you're in a group setting. He was a politician.

And whenever he stepped into the area of the assembly where there were the other politicians, you know, everyone was arguing and trying to push their own ideas. And you get caught up in all of their emotions. And it was extremely difficult to control. No matter how smart and rational you thought of yourself, you would inevitably be influenced by all of that. turmoil. And so he trained himself to always step back, to never make decisions in the moment. If something important had to be decided, he would think twice, three times, four times about it. He would retreat to his home where there was nobody around, no voices in his head, and he would think about things and reevaluate his own ideas, et cetera, et cetera.

And what made Pericles great and made him exemplary for me and for this chapter is that he understood that human beings have to love something. They have to have something that guides their behavior, a belief, a purpose in life. And that purpose could be making a lot of money. That could be getting a lot of power. That could be having a lot of sex. That could be, you know, whatever it is, something. And that there's not a single human being that doesn't have a basic drive, a love, something they worship or need.

As I said, it could be their ego. He decided that what I have to worship and what has to guide my behavior is a love of what you call noose or intelligence, rationality. He would worship the goddess Athena, who was the god. goddess of strategic wisdom of thinking and rationality. And he would worship, he would love it, the ability to step back and make the right decision, to listen to other people and incorporate their ideas, to come up with a plan that was not just based on the heat of the moment and wishes, was something incredibly gratifying. And so he, that was what in each instance, what motivated his thinking process. And the idea is that,

But you don't understand a lot of the emotions that you feel. You know, you feel angry at one moment or frustrated or excited. And I go into the neuroscience of this. You don't really have access to your emotions rationally, why you're feeling that way. There could be causes for that emotion that you're not even aware of. That anger could be sitting in you from something that happened in your childhood and you keep reacting over and over again to this pattern.

And so the wisdom of Pericles and what we're talking about here is the ability to question yourself and question your emotions. That's how you master them. Why am I angry? Why am I so excited by this idea? Maybe I'm excited for all the wrong reasons, and maybe it's going to get me in trouble. Maybe I don't have to be angry because maybe the cause of it

is something sort of petty and not important. So the ability to look at your emotions and question them, not suppress them, but understand that you know, you don't have to feel this way in the moment, that it's not necessary that you have to give in to your emotions is half the process for mastering them. How does this look like in a boardroom setting or, again, let's go back to our avatar I used before, you're a mid-level manager in a large-sized company and it gets emotional at times or sometimes you're forced to make a call in the moment, or you're at least asked to make a call in the moment,

whether it's hiring, firing, which way to go on this project, we're running behind, you know, the typical things that could happen or dealing with other poor leaders, which happens. How does that look in the real world, taking it from Pericles to the person who's listening? Okay, well, let's look at it this way. I did a book on warfare, The 33 Strategies of War, and I have a chapter on presence of mind.

Now, that's something that a great leader, a wartime leader has, but also a politician or business person. And so the ability in the heat of the moment, when things are thrust on you and you have to make a decision right away, that's what we would call great presence of mind. Some people have it. Some people don't. But it's not something people are born with. It's a skill that you gain. And it's a skill that you gain through the process I've just been describing. So if you become like Pericles, if you say that I'm going to not always give into my emotions in the moment, I'm going to step back and I'm going to think about them.

You're going to develop this ability to remain calm in the moment. And you're going to develop presence of mind. And if you read that chapter in my war book, I'm very practical about how you will. You know, Lord Admiral Nelson wasn't born with incredible presence of mind. It came from going through a thousand battles where cannons were firing in his face, and he learned over time to calm himself down in the moment. A great quarterback in a football game will separate himself because he has presence of mind. He just got sacked and he doesn't let that get to him and he comes back and makes a great pass.

But that doesn't happen easily. It comes through experience and practice. The process of mastering your emotions, not giving into them, questioning them and challenging them and scrutinizing them is the process of slowly developing presence of mind. So that middle manager needs to work on this as an important skill. And when these, you know, you're not going to be perfect. I make mistakes all the time. And in the heat of the moment, you probably will make the wrong decision. So part of that is to analyze it and say, oh, I did the wrong thing there. I gave in, I got too excited. I got too reactive. Next time I'm

not going to let that happen. So you train yourself, you question, you analyze, you don't simply give in to the moment and to reacting to everything that happens around you. That's what separates a strategist from a tactician. You're able to step back and judge the larger picture and make a decision or an action that is more geared towards getting a result than just reacting to what's in your face. But it doesn't come easy. None of this comes easy.

You have to develop the skill. Does do you think then in order to be at one of the better performers in that regard of mastering your emotional self, making good decisions in the heat of the moment, it takes a certain amount of life reps, life repetitions, just just experience going through that? I mean, I think about, I'll let you answer actually. No, no, you're exactly. You're 100% right. I agree with you. So if someone's 26 right now, do you think unless they've somehow put themselves in a situation a lot, are they just not going to be great at this yet?

It's just going to take more years? It's going to take more years, but it's going to take the right attitude, which is what this book is about and what all my books are about. So you could be 26 and you could, in the heat of the moment, in a board meeting, you may say the wrong thing and make a mistake. and person A will go home and go, God damn it, you know, it was it was that other person's fault. They said something and they threw me off, you know, and then you'll never learn from the experience. Whereas person B will go home and go, damn it, that was my fault.

I'm to blame. I could have done this better. I could have done it differently. Let me analyze and scrutinize the situation and not just simply go with the usual blame narrative. That's the difference. So the reps are important. But as you know, it's not just reps, it's the quality of the reps and the attitude that you bring to it. So are you learning from your experience?

Are you stepping back and saying, what did I do wrong? Why did I go wrong? Why did I give into that emotion? Why did I get flustered? If you do that, then the next time it happens, you probably still will get emotional. You probably still will get flustered. But a little bit less, just a little bit less. You'll have a little bit more presence of mind because you're aware of the problem.

problem. That little baby step is enough to build on for the next time and the next time and the next time. Yeah, I think I personally felt like I've gone through this. Robert, when I was younger and I became a manager at early age, that's why I probably talk about that a lot. And I made so many emotional mistakes now looking back on it that I'm ashamed and embarrassed. But I think kind of a combination of maturity, of good mentors, of good books, of now doing this podcast, all of those things. the confluence of all those events have made me better and been able to have a better self of, better sense of mastering emotions. That's why I want to find a way to help the person who was actually me, which is me 10 years ago,

and be better at that earlier. But in some cases, in some ways to do that, you could learn from the mistakes of other people. And I hope people do that with this show, but also just be more aware of it so that you could try to self-correct in those moments. Yeah, I mean, the most important lesson from this book, you know, we said it's about learning how to deal with people, but really it's also a mirror to yourself, and it's about how you must realize these qualities that I describe and how that you have them and to become self-aware.

And, you know, when we're young, it's a little, maybe a little harder to be self-aware because we're so attuned to what people think about us and their opinion of us, and we're a little bit insecure and that's what most of our brain energy goes into but as you get older able to get a little bit of distance and not care so much about what people think about you and look at yourself and assess your own performance and assess what you said and what you did and say maybe i was wrong maybe i could do things differently you know if you're able to develop that kind of attitude which is what this book is trying to pound into you chapter by chapter i think you will get very far in life Chapter 13, you talk about having, advancing with a sense of purpose.

The story in that one happens to be about Dr. Martin Luther King. I found as I've matured and grown a little bit that this is really important. And I hope that other people obviously read the book, but then maybe we can expand upon some of it right now. I think everybody wants to follow what they're passionate about. and do something that they love. However, there's a lot of people who are not doing that because they just simply need money. They need a job. They need to, they have responsibilities to take people to take care of.

And maybe perhaps they're in a good paying job right now that maybe it's not their passion or they don't love it, but it's a good job. So how do you, I guess, thinking about advancing with a sense of purpose and not drifting as you write about, how, what advice would you give to the person? who may be in that very spot right now that I just mentioned. Well, it depends on exactly how old you are where you're at. If you're at that point when you're 25, it's a lot different than when you're 45. Right.

In general, you know, I'm very practical person. So I understand people need to have a job. They have families to support. And I would never be an advocate for someone quitting their job who's other people who depend on and just following their passion, you know, in that kind of. of cliched way. You have to be practical. But on the other hand, you have to look at this realistically. And the realistic answer is if you don't follow your passion, if you drift, if you simply string along a series of jobs just to make money, you will end up feeling very unfulfilled,

very unhappy, burning out. You might end up falling into certain addictive forms of behavior, drugs or alcohol or pornography or whatever, you're going to pay a price. Now, you know, so there's a medium ground here. I want you to be practical. I want you to make money. I want you to be able to feed yourself and your family. But at the same time, I want you to have to be pursuing something that falls in your wheelhouse that genuinely excites you.

That is something that you were meant to do that's part of your destiny. And if you can realize that ultimately, by making a lot of money and being very successful through that passion, that's what we're all after. For some people, it's not practical. But if you can at least channel your energies or find a career or something that is more in that direction, then you will not face these dangers of burnout of falling into very negative, self-destructive patterns of behavior. And so it's a process.

It's not easy. I never said it's easy. For some people, it's easy. Like, I knew when I was eight years old, I wanted to be a writer. I loved books. I loved words. And then my process was it took me over 30 years to find out what I wanted to write, what kind of style of writing. What was it?

Was it a book? Was it a screenplay? It took a process. Other people don't have that sense. But I maintain every. Everybody has what I call a primal inclination, some subject that attracts them, some form of study,

some kind of activity that appeals to them deeply in some very primal way. There's a great book by Howard Gardner, a psychologist, called The Five Frames of Mind. And his idea is that there are five kinds of intelligence. I don't, the top of my fingers, remember all of them, but some of them have to do with numbers and patterns.

Others have to do with words and language. Others have to do with motion kinetic activity like sports, etc. Another one will be social situations dealing with people. Every individual, every child is naturally better at one of these forms of intelligence, is naturally gifted in that area. And a lot of problems happen in education and later in life is that we pursue something that isn't one of these forms of intelligence that suits us. You know, we're actually very good at pattern recognition, at abstract thinking,

and yet we found a job, you know, doing manual labor or something. It's not suited to who we are. So I'm describing a process where I want you to reconnect to who you are, to what really excites you deep down, to what you were probably four or five years old, and you were more natural about it. you weren't listening to parents and teachers. And these were subjects and things that excited you. And you've lost touch with it.

So if you're 18 or 19, it's extremely important that you go through this process. And it's extremely important. I would recommend reading my book, Mastery, which is really about this, but also this chapter, of connecting in some way to what that field could be. It can be rather open, like mine, it could be writing. in which you could explore five different forms of writing. Because when you're young, you want to explore. It could be tech.

It could have something to do with computers. So you try your hand at artificial intelligence. You try your hand at programming, et cetera. But you connect to it on some level because if you don't, you're going to set yourself off on a course in life that'll be very self-destructive that won't lead to what you want. If you're older in life and you're at a crossroads and you're feeling frustrated and you're depressed and you don't know why, maybe you're depressed not because of other people or because of relationships.

It might be because you're falling into a career dead end. You're not pursuing something that connects to you in any way. And I want you to step back and make a plan for yourself and say, all right, I have to keep this job because I have to pay my bills. but in three years I'm going to find a way to segue into something else. And that could mean taking you the skills that you've already acquired and finding a new direction for them. Or it could be spending time after work and going to night school or studying a different subject, but reconnecting on some level and having a practical plan for how you will adapt what you've learned in your skills to something better suited, to you. And I give the example to people of this woman who had a podcast. She told me her story.

She had become a lawyer because her family told her that's the practical thing. That's what you need to do. And by the time she was 29, she was burnt out and she was unhappy. And she realized what she wanted, always wanted to do was to be a writer. And so her choice was then to go into legal journalism. She would become, she knew law very well, she practiced it. But now she would be a writer for legal journals. And now she could do some writing. And as she built up her writing skills, she said, well, maybe now I could write a crime novel because I've been, you know, I've actually developed solid writing skills, et cetera. That's the kind of path possibility that I think a lot of people can follow if, you know, being practical, but at the same time, always trying to connect to something

that comes from within. If you don't feel emotional about something, you're not going to learn. If you're not excited about the field you're studying, you will learn at half the rate of someone who is truly excited about it. So your interest in a subject is not just some artsy, fartsy idea

about following your passion. It's very practical. You won't learn intensely enough unless you love what you're studying. Okay. Do you have time for a couple more? I know this is long. We went way over.

No, no, no. This might actually be a two-parter for the first time in podcast history, actually, now, Robert. But it's worth it to me because there's two other notes I wanted to. And the last one is, I think, perhaps really interesting me. So the next one is resist the downward poll of the group, but basically the law of conformity. This goes hand in hand, I think, with it you were saying before that it's easier to follow all the other. Lemmings. We've all seen that video probably. If you haven't just Google, watch Lemmings kind of jumping off a cliff. But it's easier to do that. We've all probably done that, or at least most of

us have done that at some points in our life. And why and how we should and could resist the downward pull of the group? The idea is that we're a social animal to the core. That's who we are. you know, dogs are social animals, wolves are social animals, you know, who go on and on down the line, ants are, and we are. And a social animal has certain tendencies. And that tendency is to connect to other people in a pre-verbal way and to be highly attuned to what other people are thinking and doing and saying. And so the point of the chapter is, is that you are less independent and autonomous than you think you will conform more to the opinions of the group than you might imagine and i don't make this as a judgment against you because it affects me as well as anybody you know

we're highly susceptible to the ideas of the people around us and you'll notice if you walk into an office a remarkable phenomenon i once gave a talk at microsoft you know thousands of people This was up in their Washington office. And I was struck by how similar everybody looked. They all kind of dressed a certain way. They had a certain haircut. The women dressed a particular way. But their mannerisms were all very similar.

Now, it would take an outsider to realize that because from within, they would think, well, no, we're just being who we are. But when you get into a group, you get into a corporation, you go into however big or small, you will unconsciously begin to a assume the ideas, the attitudes, the style of the people around you. You can't help it, just like your dog, can't help wanting to get your approval when it goes out on a walk. It's wanting you to say, good boy. Well, we're susceptible to these things as any social animal. So I want you to be aware of it, that you're not as wildly individualistic as you imagine. And so with that self-awareness, you can begin to perhaps step back from the group and maybe think a little bit more for yourself and not always be pulled down by the group.

Now, what I mean by being pulled down is, I think we've all heard of the concept of group think. In a group, people are generally less rational. It's hard to think, you know, coolly and calmly when you're in the midst of a social situation. you're finding yourself excited by what other people are excited, et cetera, or worried about what people think about you. And in that kind of environment, you'll find that your thoughts aren't as clear, that you're over-influenced by what other people are saying or doing. And if you're aware of that tendency, if you're aware of that possibility, then you can begin to step back. And in stepping back, I don't want you to violate, I want you to be a smart social, agent. A smart social agent enters a group and realizes that there is a culture that people act a

certain way. You're not going to violate it. You're not going to dress in a way that goes against the group codes and mores because that'll just make your life miserable. You will fit in. You will understand, you know, what makes the group tick. But at the same time, you're able to get a little bit of distance. And in that distance, you can think for yourself and perhaps you can begin to stand out as someone who has potential to become a manager or a leader. But the awareness that the group has a sort of Borg-like mentality, that you will assimilate yourself too and that you need a little bit of awareness and distance so that you can develop some of your own uniqueness and your own individuality is sort of what I'm talking about in that

chapter. Okay. The last one was, which makes sense, I think, for people who listen to this show, obviously about leadership, is make them want to follow you. And he talked about Queen Elizabeth, and I won't share the story so you can take it in whichever direction you want. But we started with becoming a master persuader and went deep in that area. Yeah, and as a leader, we want to inspire people to want to follow us. That's our job. That's what we need to do in order to be successful, is take and lead people to the place where we want to go.

So what are ways we can make people want to follow us? Well, I call this chapter as about authority. and I try and say that authority is sort of this magical substance. It's like the alchemical, like the philosopher's stone in alchemy. If you can conjure up this magic called authority, then you will have this leadership power that is absolutely the ultimate power you can have. And what I mean by that is,

you don't have to tell people, you don't have to yell at people to do what you want. they trust you they believe you they have you have a track record they've seen you perform they believe in you so that they want to follow you they you don't have to compel them you don't have to force them to do things they are inspired to follow your lead to do what you want and that kind of magic that sort of authority you know we've probably experienced at some point it's it's a quality that you can't really define it's almost a bit of a charisma that some people have

that make you trust them and believe in them. But I try to break it down and make it as practical as possible to show you how you can create this authority. And some of it is what we already talked about. Now, the Queen Elizabeth story, because I think of Queen Elizabeth, this is remarkable, one of the greatest leaders who ever lived, and really underestimated is that coming to power as a woman in that particular moment in history,

no one thought that she would last more than a few years as the ruler of England. She would have to marry, et cetera, and then she would lose all her power. And her strategy was, I'm not going to assume that I am the leader. Just because I'm a queen, I'm not going to assume that I'm entitled to respect and to authority and to people following me and trusting me. In fact, it's the opposite. You know, they're very suspicious. I have to earn everything that I do.

I have to prove myself 180% to every person. I have to prove myself to the English people, that I am a superior leader to any man. I have to prove myself to all the people around me, all the men in the court, et cetera. I can't relax for a minute. And the difference there is critical. A lot of people who get,

power or become successful or get a position of leadership, they suddenly feel entitled. They feel like I am entitled to respect just because I was placed in this position. And that is a deadly, deadly emotion that will kill that electrical charge of authority that I'm trying to talk about. You want to think the opposite. You are not entitled to anything. Nobody would respect you just because you have a title. they might be a little bit afraid of you.

They might think, well, my job depends on you. But they don't really respect you in any deep way. You have to earn it. You have to earn everything that you get from people. You are not entitled to one iota of respect or obedience from the people you lead. Every moment, every day, you have to earn it. Now, how do you earn it? You earn it by a lot of the things that we already talked about.

you have to be very attentive to people to who they are as individuals so that what will earn you the respect and admiration of one person will actually be the opposite for another person you know i mean if you employ a thousand people obviously you can't deal with them as individuals but you want a team of lieutenants around you who are going to carry out your mission statement and you better want those people to respect you and to just do your, you know, follow through on that mission statement without you having to batter them down or barrage them with orders. You have to earn their respect and each person is different. So you must be attuned to their psychology and what will make them follow your lead. Each person is different. You have to do what we said before. You have to set the right tone. You're working harder than everybody else. You're not just sitting there in your office leaving at five o'clock and going to play golf, but expecting everybody else in the office to work, you know, till eight and nine in the evening. That might work for a while. You might browbeat people into doing that, but eventually

you're going to pay a prize. Believe me, you're going to pay a price for that. You're going to have lower, the morale of the group will suffer and keep going down and down and down until something bad will happen. So you want to set the right tone. you're willing to if there are sacrifices to be made you're one making the sacrifices if it's a cause that you're believing in you're the person who is at the head of that cause and you're not a hypocrite you practice what you preach as i said most important of all you have a vision for the group because that is what group wants and looks to towards a leader the one person who isn't thinking about their own narrow agenda the one person who isn't getting reactive and emotional about it everything that's happening. That's the one person with a vision that sees the overall picture. There are some CEOs that are brilliant at that, you know, like I think Steve Jobs was sort of exemplary. He might not have been a very good manager of people, although he got better at it later in life because he was very abrasive and rough, so don't get me wrong, he's not perfect.

But when it came to vision, he was kind of the master because he would hear 80 different voices saying we need to go in this direction, that direction. They're all clamoring at him. And he would say goodbye. He would go into his office. He would close the door. And for 12 hours, he would think and meditate on what the right response was. And he would find the perfect vision that we'd unite the company that would set it off in the right direction that wasn't just reacting to what was going on immediately in the news.

That's what we look to for a leader. We've been looking to that since Moses. It's deeply ingrained in us. We want one person at least who understands the direction that we're headed in and sees it clearly. I call it the third eye, and it's an extremely important element of having authority. You know, I think I've covered about everything that there is. I love it, man. I really appreciate it, and we went obviously longer than I expected.

Like I said, I might have to break this one up, but it's certainly worth it. I think I'm just so grateful, Robert, for a combination of the fact that you've taken the time. to put this work that will live on forever in your books and that you've joined me here on my podcast a few times and I know certainly hope it won't be the last I expect us to continue talking man yeah as long as I'm alive and writing books I hope to keep doing this over and over again I love maybe next time we could even do it in person I'll try to get to get it get down to see you that would be or get over to see you that'd be fun where are you based I'm in Ohio I'm in Ohio so but I get out west from time to time so I would love that I'd love to meet you someday that'd be that'd be

fun, man. Where would you see my listeners to learn more about you online? Well, I have my original website address, which I've kept. It's power, seduction, and war.com and is spelled out. So power seduction and war.com. Those are my first three books. And there you'll find links to my other books, the 50th lie, a book I did with 50 Cent, the rapper, about the power of being fearless in life. and my previous book mastery and also all the things you'll need to know about my new book. So that's the website to go to. And the latest books, The Laws of Human Nature.

Obviously, when Robert Green writes something, you read it, it's just a rule for life. Certainly one of mine should be for everybody. So thanks again for being here, Robert. And obviously, let's continue this dialogue as we both progress, ma'am. I would love to write. All right. Enjoy it.

All right. Thanks, ma'am. All right. A big thank you to Robert Green for investing more than two hours of his time with me to discuss how we can better understand the laws of human nature and better understand people as a whole. There's probably no more important skill for us

to develop. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If so, I love it if you would write a review, subscribe, and rate the show wherever you listen. Write a review, subscribe, and rate the show. Five stars if iTunes, Apple Podcasts, and tell a friend, spread the message. it continues to give me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. I'm so appreciative of that. Thank you so much.

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at Mugsygreens.com. Okay. You still there? Yep. Thank you so much. I know we went along. I think I am going to break this up. I think it makes sense.

I really appreciate you doing that because we just went deep. And I think there's so much, and there's even more, but there's so much to get to when it comes to all the work that you put out, that it was hard to jamming it, especially when there's so much depth there. So thank you so much. You're a good interviewer because your questions are specific. Yeah. You have experience, so you're trying to funneling it towards things that are practical. So I appreciate that. You're a good interview.

Oh, thank you. I'm curious, how often do you work with CEOs or leaders of businesses, like one-on-one? Well, it comes in waves. So, probably in the early 2000s, I was doing a lot of it. And then I got onto the board of directors of a publicly traded company, which took up a lot of time. And then prior, after mastery, I did a lot of it. But then when I got absorbed in this book, I kind of had to like, go of that. But, you know, over time, it's been hundreds of people that I've consulted with.

Wow. I thought I was going to get back to that part at some point because I just was interested that these people hire you, but then it doesn't, it seems like they haven't been as receptive once you share with them. Is that what you find? Because I work with a few leaders and I, and I, I found them actually to be the opposite. So that's why I was curious about that. Well, gosh, you get, you get better quality clients. No, no. I mean, I'm just curious. Sometimes, you know, I try to be brutally honest. I mean, that's violating one of my rules of persuasion. But if you're going to hire me, you've got a problem.

I'm going to try and tell you what the problem is. And it's been my experience that a lot of times they don't really want to internalize that. They say, yes, yes, yes, good, good, good. And then they kind of follow their own path. and then six months later I see that they didn't do what I said and what I had said would probably would have had a much better result

is a bit of source of frustration makes me realize maybe I could do a better job in telling them what they need to do but a lot of times it's not always the experience sometimes people listen very deeply but a lot of people who are successful and who have egos

and they think they know the 48 laws of power really well. They really just want their own ideas confirmed by the person they consider to be the master of it. You know, they've got, they've got confirmation bias, cognitive dissonance. They don't want to think the person that they admire thinks that they're doing things wrong. They take it very personally. So it's not been all of the cases, but I can divide those leaders and people I think are going to do really well from those who aren't. by the quality of their listening and whether they're willing to, you know, sometimes I'm wrong. I'm not perfect, but that they're open to my idea and that they will perhaps adapt it in some way. I think, you know, tells me a lot about who they are.

Well, fascinating stuff, man. Again, I can talk to all the time. I really appreciate it again. Let's listen to you. And I would. I mean, I'd love to next time do it in person. I was just out in L.A. recording. We have a lot of common interests. Yeah, yeah. And you're in L.A., right? Yes, I am. Yeah,

I was out there recording with George Ravelling. I don't know if you met Coach Ravling through Ryan Holiday. Yeah, he was great. It was just like two hours. Me and him in his office is as humble and as good as it could be. So I'd love, I'm looking to do more of that making some L.A. and New York trips with a lot of people that are on the show, and I think that'd be fun. Yeah, let me know. If you're going to see George again, let me know, because I've been in email contact. I never met him, and I would love. Yeah, that'd be great. That'd be great. And as far as this episode or episodes, it'll be a few weeks, but I'll certainly let you and Brett know when it's going live. Do you have any idea?

I mean, I'm just curious. Will it be before Christmas or not? Yes. Okay. Is that, do you have a preference? Yeah, that's optimal. I'm just trying to drum up the Christmas sales, you know. Yep, yep, yeah, for sure.

Yeah, I might do like a Sunday-Wednesday type thing. I've never done that before, but I think it would make sense. I want to always just kind of experiment and try things. Maybe break it up in two because some people see an hour and 30 minutes and they even, yeah, yeah. So Joe Rogan to do it. But other than him, I don't know if anybody else can't. He'll do three hours. Yeah, yeah.

So I might do that. And I'll obviously shoot you a note as soon as it goes live. Okay. Well, great. Well, thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. And let me know when you're passing through LA. It would be great to meet you.

I will. Thank you so much, man. Okay. All right. Take care, right. Bye.