The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 301: James Kerr - How To Create An Ethos Of Excellence (Legacy)

Episode Date: March 10, 2019

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk Episode #301 with James Kerr Full show notes can be found at www.LearningLeader.com Commonalities of sustaining excellence: Humility - An ego-less approach. "Serve to lead" mentality Curiosity - Following passion Value Excellence - Focus on doing the small things right These are transferable principles to any organziation The "All Blacks" rugby team "are our Gods in New Zealand."  They've won just under 80% of their games in history Scored twice as many points as their competitors The most successful sports team of all time Sustained high performance Mana = The God within.  The spirit... The ethos that creates excellence decade after decade Surprises? "The softness in this hard game.  A love, a brotherhood, connection, meaning, caring for one another." How have they sustained excellence? Tradition Starts at the top with the leaders Breaking down old orthodox Like the British SAS - "Rank but no class" Leadership group -- It's not just one coach.  Everyone's ideas are valued. It's a player led team - "Positive power of peer pressure."  That feeling of not wanting to let one of your teammates down "You fight more for the person in the foxhole next to you." The Spartan sword and shield.  You can lose you sword, but you can never lose your shield.  That helps protect your brother. Accountability - There is leadership at every level It empowers the individual in a project bigger than themselves How does this work in business? Helps them step up, take ownership, be responsible "A leader is responsible for the result.  Good or bad."

There are very few good definitions of what a leader really is, or there are many, many definitions of what a leader really is. But one of my favorites is that a leader is responsible for the result, whatever that result is. And that sense of personal responsibility in ownership and accountability for that result, whichever way it goes, you know, responsible if there's a win, but also equally responsible if things don't go to plan. And ownership and accountability and taking it on the chin, I think is really good. fundamental and they're all kind of embroiled in that same that same knot of team and connection and authentic accountability. This episode is once again brought to you by Gusto. Gusto offers modern, easy payroll, benefits, and HR to small businesses across the country. They were even named Best Online Payroll by PCMag. And as a listener of The Learning Leader Show, you'll get three months free when you run your first payroll, sign up and give it a try at gusto.com slash leader. That's g-us-t-o.com slash leader. Welcome to the Learning Leader Show.

I am Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for being here. It is Mindful Monday. Text learners to 44222 in order to join tens of thousands of learning leaders from all over the world. text learners to 4-4-2-2-2. Now, on a night's featured leader, and I've been looking forward to this one for years. It's the great James Kerr, best-selling author, speaker, and consultant, his book titled Legacy. It reveals the 15 leadership lessons that he learned from embedding himself for one year with the New Zealand All Blacks, perhaps the greatest professional sports franchise in the world.

His key message is that higher purpose leads to higher performance and that successful change begins with a values-based, vision-led, purpose-driven mindset. And it ends without it. Legacy is a book I have probably read and reread more than any other in my collection. A few of the topics we got into, the five steps to develop a high-performance culture. Then what it means to keep a blue head and why we all need to do this. and then why it's imperative to become a great teacher if you want to become an excellent leader. This one is so good. Ladies and gentlemen, it's James Kerr.

All right, James Kerr. I've been looking forward to this one for years, man. So welcome to The Learning Leader Show. Thank you, Ron. It's fantastic to be here. Legacy is a book that has impacted me in a big way that you have written. I think it touches on a number of absolutely awesome. leadership traits, qualities, actions, behaviors.

But to get us started, James, and this could go in a number of different directions, but I'm curious from your perspective, when you think about those leaders who have sustained excellence over an extended period of time, what have you found to be in common with them? Well, great, great question. You know, what I'm really interested in is what are those transferable principles between leaders and between teams across many different domains? I think if we focus down on the individual leader question, you know, how the leaders maintain that, I think, you know, I think humility comes very high on the list, the sense of a relatively

egoless approach, a serving, a service approach to life. At Sandhurst, the UK Military Academy, their kind of motto is served to lead. And I think that's a fantastic way to look at it. sort of the humility to be of service to others, to be a resource to others, to bring out the best in others. Extreme curiosity, I think, is a big part of it. I know in your work you talk about this a lot,

but that kind of curiosity to follow passion, to kind of follow the lead, if you like, a focus on excellence, everyday excellence, an ethos of that the small things matter the most. You know, that kind of combination, I think, is really there. And, you know, I really kind of call this the coach CEO. You know, I think as a model for leadership, that idea of a coach being a resource there to bring out the most in the people, you know, within their remit to help everybody within their group, within their organization, within their team become the best that they can be.

That kind of service coaching model that's focused around humility, that's impassioned by curiosity and that, and that, and they, has a relentless pursuit of excellence and excellence and execution is, it's kind of the winning formula, the killer app, I think, for great leaders. James, man, you are speaking my language. I figured you would, like I said, the work you've put out in Legacy, where the Legacy is a book for those who I haven't already gifted it to since I've given it out a lot. It's you spent time embedded with one of the winningest,

or maybe the winningest sports franchises in the world. And so can you share a little bit about what that experience was like? And that's the New Zealand All Blacks for those. A rugby team for the listeners in the States who are not as familiar with them. One, why you wanted to do that and then maybe a few of the keys or surprises that you learned as you were embedded with the team. Yeah. I mean, why is a reasonably simple question for me? I'm a New Zealander. I have lived in the United

Kingdom in London for many, many years, for many decades, in fact. But at my core, I'm still a Kiwi, a New Zealander. And the All Blacks are our gods in a way. They're the epitome of what it is to be a small island nation on the wrong side of the world, if you like, a nation of four million people able to compete with the best in the world and to win. And they all back. statistics, for those of you unfamiliar with the team, are extraordinary. They played for about 125 years on the world stage.

They've won just a notch under 80% of all their encounters. So they have a win-loss ratio of 80-20. They've scored twice as many points. Four is against. They've been world number one for twice as long as the rest of the world combined and only been as low

as number two. There are three-time World Cup champion two in a row, the only team to achieved that one of their great rivals whales last beat them back in 1956 um that they hold all the silverware i think it's true to say still they hold all the silverware all the all the trophies it's possible for them to own in the sport so they're a phenomenon an outlier in terms of not just high performance but but sustained high performance and and so as a kiwi and as somebody interested in in high performance and leadership um i i had an opportunity to go

inside the team to do a book, my first book on the team called Mana. And mana is a Polynesian concept, and it kind of means the God within, if you like. That's the spirit inside. And I was really interested in understanding, you know, what are the beliefs and behaviors? What's that spirit? What's the ethos that holds that kind of environment together that helps create, not the conditions for high performance once or twice or a tournament or a season, but season after season, decade after decade.

And most importantly, what can we learn about that, about, as I say, sort of leading an organisation, leading a team? And I think in many ways about leading a life, because I think these questions come down to a very personal sense of leadership in terms of leading a life. So that was my motivation. In terms of surprises, I think, you know, I think probably the softness in this hard team.

You know, it's a very physical. game rugby. You know, I described it as like American football without the helmets and without the padding and the players play the full game and the full game is 80 minutes

of end to end, physicality. And so it's a very physical game. And yet the environment within the team is a very vulnerable one. One of the coaches recently a couple of years ago conducted

an interview really the subject was love. You know, how do you create a brotherhood? How do you create genuine human connection and meaning within, you know, what is a pretty mercenary environment, if you like, or hardcore environment? And so I think my surprise, I guess, and you know, I'd been inside other team. So in a way, I wasn't, you know, hugely surprised. but that idea of that genuine, soft, caring, loving human environment

within something that's ostensibly, you know, macho and male and dominant and domineering, I think possibly is one of those surprises. How do you think something like that is built? Is it this tradition that others want to live up to? I'm sure it's a combination of things. But when you hear, because these guys get out on the field and they have to be in a way.

And I played American football. And so I get it a little bit. But in a way, you have to, I don't know if I'd say flip a switch, but you almost have to play a role of being borderline crazy, especially with rugby, these guys. I've never played rugby, but just seeing how they play is incredible to me. I think they're amazing athletes, and they don't have much padding or any padding. But yet when they get off the field, it sounds like they have this soft care, love, connection, relationship for one another.

How that seems like almost two different aspects inside of one group of people. How does that work? Yeah. There's a Maori proverb, the original people of New Zealand, the Maori, they have a war god. And the war god is warlike a way. from home and a father in the home. And so I think there's tradition in that. I think there's a sense of, of, you know, a huge sense of tradition and a sense of this,

just that's the way it is. And, you know, I think it really begins at the top. You know, I'm not quite sure that the All Blacks have been particularly over a long period of time. You know, the world has changed a lot. The zeitgeist has changed from being very commanding control as a model to be very hierarchical, the only thing that matters, you know, in rugby you'd say sort of the backseat of the bus, the backseat of the coach, you know, that there's a, there has been, and there has been for a

long time a real sort of sense of hierarchy, the new guys come in and they don't speak. Now, now, it's a new world, it's a different world. And within the All Blacks environment, for instance, the South Pacific, the Pacifica influence came in that really wasn't as hierarchical in that sense. The millennials gets talked about a lot, this idea that those high-bracists. hierarchies, those old established hierarchies maybe need to be broken down a little bit. And, you know, I think one of the extraordinary things about this team, and I've seen it in many other teams, is the breaking down of those old orthodoxies into an environment that's a little bit more about egalitarianism and contribution. In the British SAS, the special forces, the elite

special forces, they talk about rank but no class. And I love that phrase, rank but no class. So there's definitely rank. There's a hierarchy. You know, there's experience. There's the captain. There's da-da-da, and so on. But really, there's no class. There's nothing that separates people.

Now, I think that's a context that comes apart from heritage, but it's really set from the top. And I think one of the extraordinary things within the squad that I encountered is the leadership group, the coaching group, was not just one head coach and assistance. It was a head coach and assistance, but really it was a team of three or four, in fact. And that idea that actually that there's rank, but there's no class, that it's a collective endeavor, that everybody's ideas are valued and respected and made the best idea win, I guess, as a way of saying it. I think it was modeled at the very top of the team.

And that, you know, descended down into the team and became the kind of that ethos, the way for that particular team. The best teams I've been on James as a football player, I remember my freshman year in high school. I was held accountable just as much, if not more, by the older players than I was by the coaches. And I was, I was fearful of letting down those older guys as a young little freshman playing on the team. And I learned how to hold other people accountable from watching them. They were, we had very strong, tough, hard on us coaches, no doubt. However, as scary as those guys are, and I still kind of scared, I'm fearful of them today, and I respect them highly, because I'm fortunate to have a relationship with them. But I'm even more, I still think about the thought of potentially letting my teammates down and them being willing to get on me hard if I did.

And then me growing into that leadership role, as I got a little bit older and got more experience and performed at high levels, I sense from the team and from what you've written about that that's a big aspect of the culture there too. Absolutely. Excuse me. I think there are two aspects of that. One is the positive power of peer pressure. You know, in the military they say, you know, people don't fight for queen and country or for the flag. They fight for the person in the foxhole beside them. And again, that comes down to that brotherhood, that love, that connection, that sense

that actually, you know, you represent one another and you take care of each other. And, you know, it goes back to the Spartans, the famous Spartan story, that the Spartans were issued with a sword and a shield. Now, they could lose their sword in battle because their sword protected them. but really to lose your shield was almost traitorous because your shield was there to protect your brother. So that ethos of, you know, in this male team, brotherhood, but it's not just a male thing of, of not wanting to let your teammates down, of being a good brother, a good buddy, you know, is incredibly important. But I think it also excavates another area that I think is critical within a great team is that sense of a count. accountability of leadership at every level.

That really leaders aren't just the person at the top of the team. Everybody is a leader. What in the military they call a strategic corporal. You know, in the military battles aren't one or lost back at the sort of general staff level. They're one or lost by the decisions that are made out there on the field. And that takes leadership. And that takes a culture that creates, that empowers, for one of a better word, each individual to consider themselves a leadership

and a project that's bigger than themselves. So that sense of personal accountability, that sense of personal contribution and that sense of being responsible for an aspect of something and held to account by your brothers, by your mates, by your teammates. You know, that sort of double act,

I think, is incredibly important. In rugby, you know, we talk about, you know, having a CEO in every position, you know, a decision maker in every position, somebody who understands the big picture and can make on the hoof decisions to fulfill that. And so I think that double act between, as you say, kind of healthy fear, if you like, of letting your teammates down and a sense of your own responsibility within that hole,

that's a tremendously powerful combination. Nobody is a passenger in that kind of environment. Everybody can, you know, you've got in a rugby team 15 pairs of eyes looking for competitive of advantage and contributing on that level, not kind of sitting back and waiting for somebody else to take the lead. You transfer those principles to a military unit. It's exactly the same. You transfer it to a business environment. It's exactly the same. You even transfer that to a family. You know, what I want in my family is for my kids. I have young kids to step up and to take ownership and to go, no, no, we forgot that Baghdad on the way to the beach, for instance, or to really be

responsible. And, you know, one of the, you know, I think one of the problems in leadership at the moment is that, is that there are very few good definitions of what a leader really is, or there are many, many definitions of what a leader really is. But one of my favorites is that a leader is is responsible for the result, whatever that result is. And that sense of personal responsibility in ownership and accountability for that result, whichever way it goes, you know, responsible if there's a win, but also equally responsible if things don't go to plan. And ownership and accountability and taking it on the chin,

I think is really fundamental. And they're all kind of embroiled in that same knot of team and connection and authentic accountability. You mentioned this relates to special forces in the military. It relates to business. And that's the one I want to hit on next, James, is for the, there are people listening, and most of the people listening are not a professional athlete. They're not currently a special forces, although I know we have people who are serving overseas here,

people from the United States military, which I'm so grateful for based on the emails I receive. But I'm curious, James, how would you relate this account? Palomability, ownership, healthy fear maybe, because I got it playing football and I'm curious, how could this translate for all of us who are working to lead in our organizations? Because sometimes people say, you know what, I have a job. And I'm going to show up and do my job to get my paycheck and then I want to go home and I don't really want to think about it. I don't think there's not a lot of those types listening to this because the people listening

here want to get promoted. They want to help other people. They're motivated to grow. but that still exists a little bit. So how would you relate this or to people who are leaders to build this type of culture wherever they currently are? Yeah, great. Listen, I think it's a great question. And I think, you know, my first response to that is a sports phrase, which is, you know, you can only control the controllables.

There are some things you can't control, particularly within a large organization, a matrix organization, an organization where, You might have influence, but certainly no power to colleagues that you work with. And that can be challenging. You know, it's not quite as clear cut sometimes as, you know, a sports team or an elite military unit where the boundaries are tight and the group is small. That being said, I think we all work within, you know, what's been called the sort of teams of teams. We all have small groups that we're part of. And I think the opportunity really is to create the small team culture within a group. And that comes down to a number of things.

It comes down to meaning in a sense. It's sort of a self-determination theory says that we want three things in our work lives. We want a sense of mastery. We want to be good at the things we want to be good at. We want autonomy. We don't want to be micromanaged. and we want a sense of relatedness. We want a sense of connection to the people that we work with and to the thing that we're working on.

You know, we want to do work we love, you know, ideally we want to do work we love with the people we love or at least like. Now, if you're looking at creating a culture in a small team, you know, you can't go too far wrong if you go, am I creating an opportunity for people to develop mastery, to be good at that thing? am I giving it away? Am I distributing leadership so that people feel a sense of autonomy and that accountability that we talked about before? And the third and maybe the most important is, is the why, why are we doing this? What's important for us as a group? If you've got a small, I don't know, sales team at 15 people, you know, how are you going

to kind of create meaning within that group, create history within that group? because I think from that from that creating meaning that creating history having a purpose having a drive having an intention having a story that you're telling together you can you can create a huge amount of engagement and from that engagement you create all of that the good stuff you know the discretionary effort the the order and pizzas and help your friends the the brotherhood that extra effort that it takes to do extraordinary work together and to create an extraordinary team so you know I say, you can't control everything. You can't control a large 30,000 people organization, but you can control the controllables. You can come down to that team and that group and think,

right, how can I, as a leader or as part of that team, create an exceptional environment for exceptional performance? And by creating opportunities for mastery, by giving responsibility to everybody in that group and creating that, and by creating a really compelling story, a clarity of vision, a clarity of purpose, what in the military they would call the commander's intent, you know, this idea of what we're doing here and why it really matters. And if you can kind of get that Holy Trinity right, you're certainly halfway home to creating a really engaged, driven, discretionary environment that will outperform for. I love that answer. I think it reminds me a bit of when I was, had my first management job at an inside sales group, I certainly made

mistakes for for actually a couple years until I started figuring some things out and was fortunate to make some good hires, which were probably more luck than skill at the time. But those people, kind of my little leadership team, we built almost our own culture within this giant organization. And then we even created a team name, a team chant, a team flag. We went on these kind of extracurricular activities together. And it created this bond that then permeated actually the rest of the organization. So then other teams started creating names and flags and chants and all. And it was,

and it was kind of neat to see it slowly, I guess, invade the rest of the organization for the good, for the better. And everybody kind of created an identity for themselves within this big place. And the people that are, that were on that team were listening now, probably smiling because it was,

and it was so much fun and gratifying and people felt purpose. And then the performance, which, as you said, is what I was measured on as the leader. of the team, their performance followed because the culture, I think, was created. And certainly I think I'd try to do a good job of empowering the leaders and the people of the team to make those decisions. I didn't name the team.

I didn't create the channel. I didn't build the flag. I didn't do any of it. I was just there alongside them and we did it together. And I think that's what made it really helpful. So I love that answer, James. I know it is possible, even though sometimes it appears challenging because I can sense that from the emails.

So, James, there's so much. I want to get to. And one part that I think is critical for great leadership is being an effective communicator. And one of the aspects of great communication is storytelling. And I know this is something that you've developed some mastery for, both in writing and the spoken word. But there are, and there's a few parts of storytelling I want to get to. But there are four keys that you write about in the book that I love for you to cover. And I can, I have them in my notes so I can read them for.

I don't expect you to memorize the entire book because you're working on other things since then. But the four keys, and I'll just highlight the top and then maybe you could dive deeper if you'd like. Is that cool? Sure, sure. So the story must be credible and relevant. It must be visual and visceral. It must be flexible and scalable. And it must be useful, meaning you've got to turn vision into action.

The four keys to storytelling. And there's certainly much, much more within those. but that's something you write about. And I've highlighted that. I've printed that out. It's hanging on my wall. It's a great reminder. And a lot of people have written about storytelling,

but this is one that has stuck with me when it comes to the keys of how to doing it really well. Great. Well, I mean, first, it's got to be credible and relevant. Clearly, it's got to resonate. It's got to be true. People are fantastic BS detectors. You know, they're fantastically good at knowing when they're being sold alive. And I think that, you know, the first thing of a storyteller is to be able to tell truth, find the truth, understand what that truth is.

And that's really insight. That's really getting down to being able to name the elephant in the room or address directly what it is for people. And, you know, life isn't perfect. And sometimes acknowledging that and recognizing the reality of any given situation is a tremendous power. scale and I think many leaders want to sugarcoat that side of things but but the ones that really get become disruptive I guess get beyond it are able to kind of name it and and the credibility and the relevance comes from that sense of kind of brutal honesty if you like you know if you want people to change you have to provide a case for change you know it needs to be something that they go yeah no

I buy that I genuinely buy that not that would be nice or yeah that's a nice initiative from above but I genuinely buy that there is a reason for this change. There is a reason to go in that direction. And so that's kind of key one. Visual and visceral, it's got to connect. It's got to connect on an emotional level. I think I wrote somewhere, you know, it's kind of capturing hearts and changing minds. You know, it's got to capture the heart.

It's got to be something that is felt that has pathos. And again, that takes a certain talent, I think. And, you know, not everybody necessarily has that talent, but it's something that can be developed. It's something that can be brought in. There are definitely, you know, storytellers for hire, if you like, to finding ways to kind of to tell those stories and ways that really connect. Then, you know, it's obviously going to be a story that travels. I think use the words flexible and scalable, you know, campfire stories. So they need to be every day.

They need to be something to hold on to, you know, that has a hook, if you like, that's simple and that ties in with a visual and visceral. And then finally, you know, it's got to be something that's applicable that's useful. You know, a couple of examples. You know, one of my favorites was the Ford Motor Car Company, Ford Motor Cars back in, I think, in the 20s and the 30s. And their story, if you like, was to put a full. Ford in every driveway. Now, I just love that because it's possible. But I can see that Model T parked in every driveway and every suburban street and every,

in every county, in every state and in the whole of America. I could see that idea. So I know very, very clearly what it is Ford was trying to achieve in those days. Another favorite of mine is something that the Disney company used for a while, which is they needed to translate the idea of magic, you know, the sort of the old kind of essence of Disney into something every day,

applicable. And they use the phrase to put smiles on the faces of families, to make people happy, to put smiles on the faces of families. Now, if you're working in an animation studio or you're building a roller coaster or you're working in a food and beverage offer at a hotel somewhere on a Disney campus somewhere,

the answer is the same, or the question is the same, can I put smiles on the faces of this family? So if you're animating something and it's a gruesome scene, you know, will it put smiles on the faces of families? If you're thinking how high should this roller coaster go, will it put smiles on the faces of families? If you're working at a hotel counter and somebody's lost all their luggage on arrival, how can I put smiles on the faces of that family? So it's a very simple story simply told, but is scalable, flexible, useful, visual,

visceral, clearly credible, you know, and relevant. So it's a lovely expression of a core idea. And those, they're magic, those kind of, those kind of stories, because they hold a culture together. And again, it goes back to the beginning of time, sort of aphorisms, mantras, sutras. You know, sutras from the religious times are threads. You know, really, I think, literally translates from the Sanskrit as thread, threads of a story, little pieces of cotton that hold a story together, that tie it together.

And as a storyteller, if you can find these moments, these moments of truth that dimensionalize what you're trying to achieve and connect to people on a very simple, emotional level, then they'll be useful and powerful. And we see it time and time again and the ability of great leaders to simplify complex problems down into simple but not simplistic, and I think that's important, but simple ideas that carry weight and they can be kind of swapped over the water cooler and everyone gets it straight away. If leaders, great leaders are great storytellers and can bring that kind of strategy down into simple everyday human actions, you've got yourself a winner.

Was that evident on a regular basis when you're embedded with the, all blacks just among the team, among the coaches, among the leaders on the team? Yeah, I think there's some fantastic storytellers within that environment. And I think it's a history. You know, there's some lovely language within that all black environment. Stand me in the belly, not the back. You know, tell me what I need to know to get better. Once an all black, always an all black, you're an all black 24-7.

Bleed for the team, you know, and they do. You don't own the general. jersey, you're just a, you know, the black jersey, you're just a custodian, you're a steward of the jersey for the next generation. Your role is to leave that jersey in a better place, to enhance that legacy. I mean, it's fantastic language. And I think, you know, one of the things that I noticed and that I've seen in going into many different cultures is, is that they have what I call a kind of a common, uncommon language. There's a common language within that environment. but it's uncommon for for it's uncommon it's unique to that particular environment and and language is one of those manifestations of culture that if that if you have a way of speaking phrases mantras sutras that tie it all together then that gets passed on you know a new join comes into that environment and they they begin to speak that language literally and figuratively speak that language and and that sets the expectations becomes the guide

for the belief and the expectations, the standards and the expectations and the behaviors within that environment. And that's a very powerful way that storytelling knits it all together and kind of makes it real in the hearts and the minds of the people. James, when I think about the best leaders who have helped me and served me and led me, they certainly do and exhibit this trait that you write out called, they keep a blue head. And what that means is these types of,

leaders, the wise ones, the great ones, they seek to understand how the brain reacts to stress. And they practice simple, almost meditative techniques to stay calm, clear, and connected. They use maps, also known as maybe I would call it an operating system, mantras and anchors to navigate their way through highly pressurized situations. When I go back and think about highly adverse times, whether it's on the field or off the field, the leaders that seem to be the best and most effective and, my experience are the ones who they had this almost natural calm about them because I feel like they understood that they are the natural they are the thermostat for the team,

the emotional thermostat, as my friend Scott Belski says. And I think that's, that is a crucial part for people that I think it can be developed, as you've written about as well, that to be able to have this, the stimulus happens, then you can pause before there's a response. to maybe gather yourself and not necessarily lose your mind in times when others would. How did you experience this both within the All Blacks as well as other organizations you've worked with, perhaps in the business world, when the leaders have been able to keep a blue head? I love that phrase, emotional thermostat, because, of course, great leaders lead by example,

and they set the tone. As Gerta said, they make the weather. and so self-mastery, you know, becomes a, you know, incredibly important indicator of kind of leadership mastery, I think. You know, and it almost goes back to the ancients, you know, one of the most ancient philosophical tenets is know thyself. I think in Luxor Temple, it's, and then the Delphic temples, know thyself was the kind of the core of that philosophical, almost theological inquiry into the, into the nature of being. And I don't think that's changed. And I think that know thyself is the core of what's really about state changing or the

maintenance of an optimum performance state. If we, you know, we talk a lot about a performance environment, but of course, the optimum performance environment is an emotional one. Is our ability to govern our emotions to be present to what is rather than distracted by what we're making it mean inside. And again, it's sort of one of the oldest things. You know, the Buddhists talk about the second arrow. Something happens where, of course, we're going to have an emotional response,

fear or anger or frustration or whatever. But it's that second arrow that we need to guard against, the one that comes in and makes us explode more or react in an inappropriate way or an unresourceful way. And, you know, there's a lot of talk about mindfulness in, in business and so on. And I think this is where it really kicks in, that idea that we know ourselves,

that we can bring ourselves back to the moment. Now, for those, I'm familiar with the bluehead concept, it's a very, the All Blacks had, despite their dominance over a long period of time, they went 24 years between World Cups, between victories and World Cups.

They went in favorite. They came out falling short. And so they, in 2004, A new leadership team, the team I studied, took over and they realized that the response to pressure was a key missing, I think, within that environment, within that culture. They bought in a very talented man called Kerry Evans, who worked with them on brain biology under pressure, perhaps as a way of saying it.

You know, what do we do under when the pressure hits? and sort of paraphrasing, wildly paraphrasing, but hopefully I can sort of boil it down. You know, they really looked at it in two levels. One is preparing for pressure, and the other one is performing under pressure. Now, preparing for pressure means, there's a lovely military phrase that just says,

what does it say? We don't rise to the occasion we fall back on our training. Yeah, well, that's a nice one. But kind of train hard, fight easy, I think, is where I'm going. That if you can condition yourself, to put yourself in a position where you're conditioned through intensity normally and through preparation to be able to deal with what's thrown at you later. Then that's sort of the first stage.

And the second stage really is what do our brains do under pressure? And that comes down to self-knowledge because we all, you know, to know those self, because we all respond to pressure differently. Some of us go into ourselves, sometimes, you know, and lock up. Some disassociate. You know, you see ourselves as a small. figure on a field running around with a lot of other fear, but we disassociate, we make things unimportant. So understanding what our response is under pressure, I think, is really important.

And Kerry Evans and the All Blacks put together a system, a sort of a basic mind map called Redhead and Blue Head. Now, Redhead, best description for me is, you know, you're late for meeting, you're driving, you're in a car, you're pushing through traffic and you're going, I'm going to be late, I'm going to be late, where will I park? What will I say? say, the meeting will go badly. We won't get the deal. If I don't get the deal, I won't get my bonus. If I don't get my bonus, I can't pay my mortgage. If I can't pay my mortgage, my cat will leave me. You know, that negative spiral of a panic, if you like. But of course, none of that has happened. And it's at that. When you were driving on the highway and you're thinking like that, that's when

you get teaboned by another car. Because your mind is literally not on the road. It's somewhere else. It's in this imagined future, catastrophic future that hasn't even happened. So that's not an optimum performance state. That's a suboptimal state. So coming back to the moment, coming back to the present, coming back to what is, and then controlling those controllables is, of course, very, very important. And that's really a bluehead state. You know, the time slows down, the horizon opens up, your present,

able to execute with accuracy and precision, karma, you're in the zone, you're in the moment. So that state changed between a redhead and unresourcedful, panicked, future-focused, results-oriented state, and bluehead, which is controlling the controllables, being on your game, is fundamental, I think in any walk of life. Whenever the pressure is on, how do we respond?

So the All Blacks, you know, brilliantly, I think, found some very, very simple anchors. One of the players who would tend to go in on himself, he knew that about himself. So he just used a process where he would look at every corner of the stadium in the big moments to give himself the big picture. Another player used the Harker, the challenge that the All Blacks used before a game, and he stamped his feet and he grounded himself to stop himself from disassociating. another player just threw water on his face to cool himself down.

So these living metaphors, these simple anchors, helped bring these guys back into the moment. Now, it's an ancient idea. It's a martial arts idea, mindfulness, and of course, the ability that mind defines matter, if you like, is one of the most ancient of arts. And it's captured in another great team in the U.S. Navy Seals, who, of course, you're familiar with, who use box breathing, four square breathing, you know, in on four, hold for four, out on four, hold for four,

in on four, and so on. And that box, that cycle of breathing, coming back to the breath, to the essence of life, if you like, coming back to that moment, is one way that they deal with the pressure and the fear and the confusion and the fog of war.

So finding simple ways, I think we can all learn from this, finding simple ways to come back to ourselves, to come back to the moment, to come back to the breath, to come back to a resourceful state, an optimum performance state, to regulate, if you like, that emotional thermostat for ourselves. You know, it's a really fundamental way of creating a state change, not just for oneself, but for those around you, to lead by example, to create that weather. and I think it's a very, very powerful lesson, an example of how the greats do it. And as I say, it's an ancient, ancient, ancient idea.

It's really the basis of yoga. It's the basis of meditation. It's the basis of many of the martial arts, that ability to come back, to know thyself, and to come back to thyself, and to be in that optimum state. And it makes me think I just recently recorded an episode. episode with my younger brother, James, who played in the NFL professional football here for 11 years. And we talked a lot about the practice of playing, meaning what he did from a walk-through perspective and just all of the preparation. And I obviously have done some of this as well.

And there's a phrase you use, what's automatis, which is the word automaticist from the Greek automatis, which means self-thinking and meaning if you train with. high intensity and you're deliberate when you're training, you make your performance more automatic. And as my brother told me, you wanted to create instincts so that you didn't have to think when you got on the field, you could just react and play. And that does not naturally happen. You almost have to force and make it happen through having intense practice and attention

to tiny details. And that's why it's so important so that when it comes game time, You hardly even have to think you just react in the moment and let your skills do the work instead of having your brain potentially slow you down. Exactly. You know, there's been some fascinating studies done in the United Kingdom on kind of Sunday league soccer players, footballers, and diodes put on their on their brain waves, comparing them to professional Premier League footballers. Premier League footballers think much less. they're not thinking about what they're doing, they're just doing, whereas the sort of the hacker on a Sunday afternoon is really sweating it, is really working it. Now, that sense of the automation of action, if you like, you know, is a result of that 10,000 hours, is the result of that, that continual application. Now, some people are quicker learners, some people get to that more quickly, but that's really where the train hard, fight easy aspect. comes in. How do you put yourself in a position? You know, I think Bruce Lee said something like,

you know, I'd rather fight somebody who's fought 10,000 trees, who's punched 10,000 once rather than somebody who's punched one tree 10,000 times. It's the, it's the person who who really works those basics. And, you know, we look at it in kind of coaching philosophy. There's a, there's a system sort of periodized training, which is around real world training situation. putting players in situations where they really condition themselves in a situation that could actually happen, these randomized situations, the All Blacks randomized their training so that they threw, you know, difficulty into the training sessions so that, you know, if that happens on a Thursday, what's the worst that can happen on a Saturday, on a Sunday?

Right. So finding ways to condition to create those real-world conditions. sales team it might be you've got your sales pitch all worked out but you forgot that actually the CEO might come and sit in on the meeting or somebody might interrupt you at your critical point or your technology might go down or all of those things that that really up the pressure and throw you off your game you know have you prepared for that have you put yourself in a position to do it and and then i think the the other aspect of it if i can just sort of add this is is one thing that I think the greats do is they come back to basics.

They come back to those kind of basic areas. So I had a very good fortune to ski. I'm a skier by background with a former Olymp, well, the Olympic champion, Franz Klammer, one of the greats, 1976 Olympic champion, one of the most fantastic downhill skiers all time. And what I noticed is that before every run, he would go into what's called an A3rd. frame position and just very simply come into a wedge position and sort of set as edges. You know, Joe Montana was very, very famous at, you know, practices going out and just doing the basics and coming back to the basics. You know, John Wooden, the great UCLA Bruins

basketball coach, would have people learn how to tie, to put on their socks. Yeah, the socks is getting back to the basics is, is so fundamental. And coming back to the, to the, to the building blocks of technique coming into those basic positions, coming into that, the kind of triggers for autonomous work, I think is a really fundamental way of kind of rebooting every time and putting yourself in a position to kind of do the basics brilliantly. It's that, I think I've heard it, I'm paraphrasing this quote I've heard before, but it's essentially if you sweat more on the training ground, you'll bleed less on the battlefield. field. And I think that's what we're talking about with. If you're leading a sales team, how often are you in the room without a customer training? How often are you preparing them for every potential situation, every potential objection? As you said, I remember, James, I was going to a training session. And it was in this, we brought in a specialist within our company to train. I don't know why this came top of mind, but it was a good example of this. And we had hundreds of people in the room, and he was going to train.

us on this newer product. And in order to do the best job, he needed Wi-Fi. And it just so happened that the room that we were in, for whatever reason, the Wi-Fi didn't work. And I said, oh, this is a huge problem. What are you going to do? And he goes, it's okay. I prepared for this.

I took screenshots of every place that I was going to go to show the product. And he had a PowerPoint deck with 200 slides of screenshots from every spot he would go to just in case the Wi-Fi went down. He was so impressive in the fact. that he said, I prepare for everything. I am ready in case the Wi-Fi goes down. And that's why I prepared these hundreds of slides to make sure that our time was not wasted here with hundreds of people in the room that I am training, that I get ready for these types of moments. And I would urge you to do the same.

And he almost was glad that it happened because you could use it as an example for everybody in the room to say, you need to do the same. Do everything possible leading up to the moment to make sure that you're prepared in case something goes wrong. because there will be days when it does. Just like a keynote speaker, if you depend on the PowerPoint slides, there will be days when they won't work and you'll have to get up there and give it without it. So you better be prepared to do it. So I think that aspect of automatis, that Greek word, which means self-thinking, meaning training so hard and being prepared for every potential situation

is a great metaphor for life in general and can help people in all aspects, not just on the battlefield. field. And just to that, you know, preparation will lead to the performance. And there are many cliches around that. But I think one of the interesting things is the most great sports teams that I've been involved with, if things go wrong, they'll certainly they'll look at what happened on the field on the day, on the Saturday or the Sunday.

They'll analyze their actual on-field performance. But they'll also go back in time and they'll look at their week. or the month or the season. And did they prepare for that moment? Were they prepared? And particularly that's going over the week. And you hear this, the All Blacks, you hear this a lot around the All Blacks. It's like if there's a loss, they'll look at, okay, did we, you know, what was our week

like? What is the preparation like? If things go wrong in a military context, they have the After Action Review or the After Action Report, which is really. largely based on not just what happened when the shots started being fired, but, but, but what was the thought process? What was the thinking? What was the training? Who was on board? What was the order? What was the order of March? What are all of those aspects that contributed to to that team being ready or not for that moment? And, and, you know, it's the oldest

cliche in the book, you know, you know, fail to prepare, prepare to fail, but it's the true, it's a cliche because it's true. Another aspect of great leadership is the fact that the most effective leaders are fantastic teachers. As you write, leaders are teachers. And Bill Walsh, the great Bill Walsh from 49ers fame, which has been brought up on this podcast before. When the environment is dedicated to learning, the score takes care of itself. The ability to help people self-actualize their goals, underlies the single aspect of my

abilities and the label that I value the most being a teacher. Yes. Look, I think in rugby it's been fascinating because rugby is relatively newly professional, you know, relatively newly professional. And a lot of the coaches who became professional coaches were teachers. They, they, because they could practice their coaching out of schools, universities, and so on. and they brought this teaching philosophy into the practice of coaching.

And of course, coaching is a form of teaching. And I think, but I think you take it further. We talked about the Navy Seals. One commander in the Navy Seals told me that one of the things they look for within their environment is what they call expert learners. So creating a synergy, if you like, between the coaching environment. and they're coached, creating an opportunity so that, because of course, I call it in business, I call the growth company.

You know, businesses want to grow. What's the best way of growing a business? It's grow your people. It's great an environment where people will learn and get better every day and increase their capability and their capacity. It's a lot better to grow from within than to buy in talent. If you can create an environment where people are genuinely getting better every day, they're achieving them sense of mastery.

Not only that, not only do you get the huge benefits of the engagement, but you're getting a more capable company. You're getting a more, higher capacity group. And so that learning environment, creating an environment where people are engaged, are following their curiosity,

are excited about, you know, what they're going to achieve today, feel good about themselves, bring their best out, effort. If leaders can that coach CEO, the leaders are teachers, framework works on that. What you get is corporate growth, the growth of the body, if you like. Now, that's good for results. That's really what it's all about, clearly. So the benefits are huge. Rather than, you know, I think

there's been a sort of an idea that leaders, you know, follow me, come this way or do this, or this is what I want you to do. Rather, isn't it a better question? It's like, who do you want to be? You know, where do we want to go together? And those questions, that questioning environment is sort of the beginning of learning. You know, rather than I tell you what I want you to do, rather I ask you what you think we should do together. Now, that has many, many benefits.

It's kind of empowerment and action. Wayne Smith, the former All-Black Coach, told me half jokingly, but I think half seriously, that he would go through a week trying not to tell anyone anything. He would go in and just ask questions. And he has a lovely phrase in a book he contributed to that he just said that people will rise to a challenge if it's their challenge. People will rise to a challenge if it's their challenge. And what better way to make it their challenge is ask them, what do they think?

What's their view on it? where should we go together and they go, well, what about this boss? And it's like, brilliant idea, let's do that. You know, you've created an environment where people are learning, they're bringing themselves to it, and they're self-learning. They're embedding deeply within themselves the answers. And so that environment of continual improvement of everybody getting better every day, becoming the best that they can,

leaders are teachers not for any kind of altruistic reasons, but because by creating an environment of learning among expert learners, you get growth. And if you get growth, you get results. And that, I think, plays right in with what you've written about as far as how to develop a high-performance culture. First, it's the who, select people based on their character. Then it's understanding your strategy for change. Then it's co-write, as you just said, a purpose. Devolve leadership.

Encourage that learning environment. and then turn standards, the six part, turn standards into action. And I think that that plays perfectly with leaders or teachers empowering your team, asking them what they think people will rise to a challenge if it's their challenge. That is so good. James, I have loved this talk. I appreciate you. By the way, for people listening, James has woken up early for me at 4.50 in the morning.

He's in Bali. I'm in Dayton, Ohio. We have 13 hour time difference here. I love technology and the fact that we're able to have this conversation. I really appreciate the fact that you woke up so early to do this one with me. This has been a pure joy for me. Ryan, for me too. It's a real privilege to speak.

And this is my sweet spot. I love this stuff. I'd get up early to talk about it any time. So thank you very, very much for having me and giving you an opportunity to, you know, give me some voice. Yeah. So thank you. I may ask you to do it again because I still have notes. But this is awesome.

Hey, by the way, where would, awesome, where would you send my listeners to learn more about you online? I think a quick Google of James Kerr Legacy will pretty much find everything you want. I have various kind of online identities and so on. So I would just do that. The book, of course, Legacy, 15 lessons in leadership is sort of, got it all and that's available on Amazon and as they say in all good bookshops. But just a quick Google of my name and the book and the phrase,

Sweet the Sheds comes up quite often. That's a nice phrase. We haven't really even talked about that. Oh, can you, can you, do you have a second to briefly talk about that? Yes. Yeah, I mean, Sweet the Sheds is the first note I took in the book, by the way. It probably comes back to your first questions. Yeah.

What was surprising? And, you know, you have to imagine the All Blacks. or in any great team, you know, they're being screamed out by 40, 50, 60,000 people in a stadium. It's all they go out there and they play for their country and then they come back into the sheds, into the locker rooms, the changing sheds they're called in New Zealand. And, you know, they get, they get sutured and suited and booted and showered and ready. And then there's a debrief. And the debrief, everybody has their say because people rise to a challenge because it's their challenge. and then they have a few quiet drinks to celebrate, you know, their victory, hopefully.

And then something happened that when I was first involved, I really didn't expect. Somebody clapped their hands and said, okay, boys, it's time to go. And rather than the players just grabbing their bags and heading for the coach, hitting for the bus, the players led by the senior players grabbed long-handle brooms and started tidying up after themselves, sweeping the shit, sweeping all of that mud and blood and strapping into corn. into corners tidying up after themselves. And, you know, I asked, you know, why? You know, because clearly there were people who would do that, people who would pay to do

that even. And the answer was, you know, intriguing. It was about really about personal discipline. It's just about doing it, right? It's about leaving a legacy. What better way to leave a legacy than leave the environment in a better place? And in a way, and I'm not sure they would even necessarily articulate that. It's about, you know, what I would call.

you know, living the values out loud, you know, core to the all-black's environment. And as I say, any high-perform environment, really, is the idea of humility. Never be too big to do the small stuff that needs to get done. Don't get ahead of yourself. Don't think you're, you've made it. You know, just because you're the world's number one, you know, practice like your number two. Behave like you're number two. And that, and that, so the, the sweeping the sheds, the taking care of,

a business that even though 40, 50, 60,000 people have been chairing your name and the television cameras are still there and kids are going to bed dreaming of, of sport and glory, don't let that turn your head. Stay, stick to your knitting, stay grounded, keep your feet on the ground, do the basics, wash the dishes, put out the bins, you know, and it's something that turns up in the British SAS, in the ethos for the British SAS, it's humility and a sense of humour. You know, stay humble and stay hungry and stay human. And the Navy SEALs, the Trident, the badge of belonging for the seals, the US Eagle has its head bowed in humility because, you know,

if you get ahead of yourself in special forces or on a rugby field or in business or in life, I think, you know, you get found out, you get shot. And so, so again, again, that sort of surprise, the humility, they're keeping your feet on the ground, they're keeping real, the staying human, they're not letting ego get in the way of performance.

I think, you know, maybe if there's one lesson of all the lessons, it's that performance is kind of your, your ability minus the distractions of ego. You know,

your ability to just bring yourself 100% without that sort of sense that I'm special, that I'm great, that I'm entitled, is a tremendously powerful mindset to take into any activity. So that's the sort of the sweeping the shed story and the humility story and maybe a nice

one to end on. So good. Thank you so much, James. I didn't want to tell you too much ahead, but huge expectations. And it's really neat when those are not only met but surpassed because I've been reading and rereading this book for so long. And sometimes I crammed to read books to get ready for a podcast interview. As you can imagine doing hundreds of these, this is not the case.

This is one that I've read for years. And so it's a pure joy for me to get to meet the guy who was embedded, who wrote it, identified. I've learned so much and have actually put it into play since doing it. So it's a great joy for me to get a chance to have this conversation. I really appreciate your investment of time. You waking up early and spend a time. And I certainly want to continue the dialogue as we both progress, man. I would love that, Ryan.

And thank you very, very much for having me on board. And, you know, as I said, it's been a really. real privilege. So my grandmother had a had a saying, which is just be useful. Be useful. So I hope this has been useful for you and to your listeners and and send some ripples out there into the sort of the leadership pond that can help make a difference. So thank you very much for having me on your show. Love it. Love it. Thanks again. I appreciate it, James. No worries, Ryan. Talk to you soon. Bye. Bye. Whoa, that one was so useful, as he put it, and so entertaining.

I loved it. I knew from the beginning when he talked about humility and curiosity and valuing excellence and focusing on the small things that James and I were going to click. And I'm so glad we did, especially because his book Legacy is the one that I continue to read and reread and implement into my life. I really enjoyed it. It's so cool when these types of conversations happen. and I get to go a little bit deeper with someone I greatly admire.

I hope you enjoyed it as well. If so, I would love it if you would share and recommend this specific episode to a friend, perhaps one that has never listened to the Learning Leader Show. Tell them that this one with James Kerr is one that you cannot afford to miss if you desire to be an excellent leader. I would love for you to continue to spread the message. that word of mouth marketing is as good as it gets, and it continues to give me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. And for that, I will forever be grateful.

Thank you so much. Talk with you next week. Can't wait. This episode is once again brought you by Gusto. Gusto offers modern, easy payroll, benefits, and HR to small businesses across the country. They were even named Best Online Payroll. by PCMag. And as a listener of the Learning Leader show, you'll get three months free when you run your

first payroll. Sign up and give it a try at gusto.com slash leader. That's G-U-S-T-O.com slash leader. All right. You still there? Yep. Oh, man. Thank you so much.

That was just awesome. It really was. It's a joy for me as I'm, I just identify with it. I've learned and your work has impacted me to get a chance to then ask you. you those questions and to go even deeper is just a thrill, man. It's cool when it happens this way. I have to tell you because it, not only do you live up to it, but surpass these really high expectations that are tough to meet and it means a lot to me. Listen, it's a real pleasure. And listen, any time, if there's, you know, if you want to do a

kind of a sequel at some time, give it a little bit of time, get a good response, I'm really happy. There's obviously, you know, other areas to go and I have another book coming out. It won't be out for about a year, but, you know, I'm working on on a team going to Everest at the moment. I saw that. Yeah. Kirkers and some SF guys. Where the Earth meets the sky, is that we were calling it? Coming an earthquake and kind of getting back on the top.

So that might be a nice interview or there's obviously more in terms of high performing teams from the legacy thing. So, you know, or leave it at this. But whatever works for you, I consider me yours. I'd love to contribute. Oh, thank you. When you leave Bali, where are you moving back to, to New Zealand or somewhere else? Sorry, Ryan, I lost you again. When you leave Bali or where are you moving back to?

Back to London. London, got you. Yeah, rainy old London. But it's going to be a bit of a shock after the weather here. Well, maybe next time we can even do it in person. I'm going to travel more and even get overseas. That would be even cooler for me to get a chance to meet you and go even deeper on some of this stuff. Yeah, well, brilliant.

Well, from August, you know, pretty much from August, I'll be back in London. We're going to leave here in about June and then travel for a little bit. And then I'll be back sort of settled there. So if you're in London, you know, look me up and let's at least have lunch or coffee. You know, if we can do more work together, that'll be a pleasure. That'd be great. Thank you. And I'll make sure to certainly let you know when this one goes live.

I'll send all the details to you. Thanks, Rob. That's great. Okay. Have a fantastic afternoon. Thank you, you too. Thanks, right.