The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 307: Carly Fiorina - Why You Should Run Towards The Fire

Episode Date: April 21, 2019

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk Text: LEARNERS to 44222 to be part of 'Mindful Monday' Episode #397: Carly Fiorina Leaders who sustain excellence = Unlock the potential in others Courageous High character -- "How" matters more than what Collaborate well Humble/Empathetic They see possibilities in other people... They don't judge them Optimism combined with realism -- "Seeing people do more than they thought they can is fuel for me." "You need an equal measure of optimism with realism.  You must see the current state as it is.  It's important to believe things will get better (optimism), but also be clear eyed and realistic.  Be honest.  See truth, and act on it." From secretary to CEO -- "People wouldn't look at em and say that's a leader." "Work hard and do excellent work in your current role." "What I saw were problems and we fixed problems.  I learned that solving problems is what leadership is all about." "Run towards the problems, work to solve them.  Don't fixate on getting promoted, focus your attention on doing great at your current job."  And then doors will open... Choose a path over a plan How you get things done matters more than what you get done... The manner in which you do it.  Think long term. Focus on where you can make a difference A manager versus a leader: Manager -- Works within current constraints of the role.  They do the best they can with what they have. Leader -- Changes things.  They create new ways of doing things. Leaders are made, not born.  Focus on building character and working to be excellent Carly was recruited to be the CEO of HP.  She was the first outside hire to be CEO ever.  And the first female CEO of a Fortune 50 company. She was named the Fortune magazine most powerful woman in American business for 6 years in a row "When your team is diverse, the team is stronger." Competitive nature: "I've always been focused on excellence.  But, I've never been a win at all cost person." "It's easy to make a quarter (in the business world, hit your mark for that particular quarter), but you need to get there the right way." Criticism as CEO of HP "When you try to change things, you will get criticized." "Criticism is the price of leadership." How to handle a board? "A good board considers themselves a team, not a collection of individuals."  The HP board was a set of individuals and two of them leaked sensitive information to the press.  "Eventually, after I was gone, they got fired." Debating with President Trump on stage at the Republican debates... How to be prepared? "Every woman in the world heard what he said." "You need to be prepared, but also be present.  Be able to use experience and instinct in the moment." "I didn't prepare for the comment about my appearance, but being present in the room, and having good instincts helped me respond properly." "Right now, we are confused what leadership is.  We see leaders who promote conflict, criticize, castigate others.  That is wrong." "We need to be reminded who leaders are and what they do.  Leaders lift others up, they have courage.  Everyone can choose to be a leader." The idea of privilege: "We cannot judge someone by they circumstances.  Whether they come from privilege or they are poor.  We should judge them based on their character and their contribution." "If we want to achieve more, if we want to be excellent, it requires people who are different to work together towards a common goal."  Shane Show's Dream Teams model for building teams. Use the "Get To Know You Document" Why joining The Learning Leader Circle is a good idea

What I learned, fundamentally what I learned, is solve problems. The purpose of leadership is to solve problems. It's different than management. There are very good managers, but they're usually operating within the way things are. They operate within the status quo. Leaders change the way things are. Welcome to the Learning Leaders Show. I am Ryan Hawk.

Thank you so much for being here. It is Mindful Monday. Text learners to 4422 in order to join tens of thousands of learning leaders from all over the world. Text learners to 4422. Also have some cool updates for those who wish to be a part of my book launch team. Text learners to 44222. Now on a night's featured leader. Wow, it's a big one.

It's Carly Fiorina. Started out as a secretary for a nine-person real estate business. and eventually became the first woman ever to lead a Fortune 50 company. HP recruited and hired her to be their CEO. She also made a run for president and handled herself quite well on a debate stage and a multiple-time best-selling author. A few of the topics Carly and I got into, the difference between a manager and a leader and what you should focus on.

And then what it was like the moment, H.P. hired her to be their CEO, making her the first woman ever to lead a Fortune 50 company and how her response could be helpful for you to know in your career. Then her preparation process for the presidential debate stage. This story was fascinating to me because I felt it could apply to everyone as you prepare for big moments in your life. Ladies and gentlemen, so good with Carly Fiorina. All right, Carly Fiorina, it's so good to have you here on The Learning Leader Show. Welcome. Well, thank you for having me, Ryan. That's really good to be with you. I'm curious, you have such a fascinating career, and you're still right in the middle of it. But to get us going, I love to talk to you about leaders who sustain excellence. And I'm curious from your perspective, you've certainly lived a life of this and continue to do so as well.

have you spent time around many others who have? From your perspective, what have you found to be the commonalities among those who sustain excellence? Well, I talk a lot about this in my upcoming book, Find Your Way, but I think actually there are several common characteristics. The first is that leaders understand their purpose, which is to change the order of things for the better, to serve, to unlock potential in others. Purpose matters. And in addition to that, I would say the leaders that I admire who can sustain excellence, and I think that's such a important phrase you use, they're courageous, they have character,

they know that the ends don't justify the means, they know that how they win or how they succeed matters as much as what they achieve. They collaborate well with other people, which requires them to be both humble and empathetic. And they always see possibilities. They see possibilities in a situation. They see possibilities in circumstances where perhaps others see no possibilities. But most importantly of all, they see possibilities in other people. people. And they don't judge people based on appearance or beliefs or opinions or circumstances.

They see possibilities for positive contribution in virtually everyone. Wow. So much there to pull from. When I hear that at the end, you're talking about seeing possibilities. I get the sense that you found excellent leadership. leaders have an optimistic viewpoint of the world, especially in regards to other people and the chance to help other people perhaps do more than they thought they even could. Has this been your experience in the leaders who have helped you as well as you leading and helping others? Yes. So first, I think seeing people do more than they think they could do is, fuel for me. Yeah. And people always get a certain look when they realize they can do more than

they thought they could. It's the same look everywhere. We recognize it when we see it. You use the term optimism. It's very important. I would argue that optimism is a huge piece of seeing possibilities, but it's only half. I think actually seeing possibilities requires equal measures of realism and optimism. You have to be clear-eyed and realistic about what I would call the current state in order to actually change it to something better. So optimism is the belief that things can get better,

and you have to have optimism. Without optimism, nothing changes for the better. On the other hand, if you skate over what the current state, state really is, if you disregard the realities of the current situation, then you won't attend to them. So I say that leaders have to be clear-eyed and realistic about their current state. Be honest. Sometimes I would say a leader's job is to hold up the mirror so that people can see the truth, speak the truth, and act on the truth. But that clear-eyed realism has to be coupled with

the optimism that says people can rise to the occasion, things can change for the better, we can make a difference and change the order of things. Are there initial, is there an initial person or two that comes to mind? As you describe all those great characteristics that make up an excellent leader, as well as having that really important combination of optimism and realism and clear-eyed. Are there a person or two who you immediately think of? Well, I think of so many, honestly. But I'm going to tell you one of my favorite stories about leadership because it's an unexpected leader.

I met a woman on a rooftop in the slums of New Delhi, India. The slums of New Delhi India are desperate places. I have never been in a worst set of circumstances. And this woman was incredibly poor, as everyone around her was, but she was offered the opportunity through an organization that I was the chairman of at the time, Opportunity International. She was offered the opportunity to get a small loan, what are called microloans, and to be trained to become an entrepreneur.

She was told by her family, no, because in her, her culture, women didn't do this. So her husband told her no, her in-laws told her no, her parents told her no. And for a year, she took no for the answer. Now, she was very clear-eyed. I mean, the reality of her circumstances surrounded her every day. And yet, after a year of that, she said, I'm going to take the loan. I'm going to start a business. I can change the order of things for the better. And when I met this woman, I asked, she told me this story. And I asked her, well, what does your family think now? And she said, oh, they're all very happy. They all work for me. Now, here was a person, a woman, who was clear-eyed and realistic about her current state. She could

not escape it. And yet she was optimistic enough, as well as courageous enough, to say, I can actually change it for the better. And I'm going to. That to me, that little vignette is the essence of that important mix of courage and realism and optimism that's required. Do you know how she's doing today by chance? You know, I haven't checked in with her, but this was several years ago.

And based on what I saw of her business, she's doing really well. Oh, that's really cool. That's a great story. And speaking of great stories, Carly, I want to get to yours. And as we work our way up towards your latest book called Find Your Way, Unleash Your Power and Highest Potential, which I certainly have a bunch of notes on. I appreciate your team sending me. But you have put together a career. that almost looks like it's not possible to be real with you when I read through everything that

you've done. And certainly, I'm sure most people listening have seen you on TV, whether it was in a presidential debate or in other settings. We've seen you certainly hold your own with some of the most powerful people in the world, including our current president. But you started as a secretary in your career. And I, and then you, you had a, you. end up as a CEO of a Fortune 20 company. I believe so, right? One of the 20 biggest companies or HP. So there's a lot between that first role and becoming a CEO of that monster company.

And I'm curious, there are a lot of people listening, Carly, who are currently either in some sort of a mid-level manager role. They're leading a small team within a big company. I say this because I get a lot of emails from people in roles like this. And so you're, I think, a perfect person to speak to as these people are looking to grow, build a career from the position they're currently in, and people want more responsibility. They want to be promoted in a lot of cases, at least that's what I'm hearing. And so could you share a little bit about some of the key markers and inflection points along the way,

as you go from really the most entry level of roles to one of the biggest roles literally in the world. Well, let me say first, Ryan, that I was not the person that someone would have looked at and said, there's a leader. Really? Not at all. Why? Not at all. Well, first, because at that time, I was a woman.

There weren't a lot of women in the industry that I eventually joined after I got out of the secretarial pool communications. Second, because my resume wasn't right. I was a medieval history and philosophy major. I had dropped out of law school after less than a semester. I had spent a year typing and filing. I ran off to Italy to teach English. I mean, I was not on the path.

okay, if people had read the resume. Eventually I would go on and get an MBA and I landed in this entry-level sales job. And I can tell you that the people in the office didn't think I was going anywhere. It was sort of a sink or swim philosophy. My first meeting was held in a strip club because that's where men held meetings with clients was in strip clubs. And I think they were trying to sort of scare me. I mean, I know they were trying to scare me. So I start there because I actually did not think about getting promoted.

I had no plan to be a CEO. I was trying not to get fired every day. Every day, even when I was a secretary, I said, I am going to work hard and do an excellent job. Whatever job I'm given, I'm going to work hard and do an excellent job. And the advice I give to young people today is just get a job. It doesn't have to be the perfect job. But when you get that job, if you do a good job, you're going to learn a lot about yourself,

you're going to learn a lot about people around you, and opportunity will knock. And then don't be afraid to walk through the door. What happened to me was I did a good job and I worked hard, And what I saw were problems everywhere I looked. And the problems had festered. And everyone knew what they were and everybody talked about them, but nobody did anything about them. And so I actually started working with other people and we fixed them. We made them better.

And every time that happened, somebody took notice and then an opportunity would come along. What I learned, fundamentally what I learned, is solve problems. The purpose of leadership is to solve problems. It's different than management. There are very good managers, but they're usually operating within the way things are. They operate within the status quo. Leaders change the way things are. The reason problems fester is because people don't like change.

and as bad as the status quo is, sometimes it's easier than actually changing it. So, I asked a lot of questions. I focused on solving problems, not getting promoted. I collaborated with people around me. And every time I did that, another opportunity would come along, and I found that I liked challenge. I liked problems. I ran two problems.

Sometimes people ask me, when did you know you would be a CEO? And the honest answer is the day I became one. Really? So what, yes, the day I became one. And so what I would say to people is, don't fixate on getting promoted. Don't fixate on having the plan to get ahead. Don't fixate on the perfect job. Focus your attention on doing a really good job in the job you have.

focus your attention on unlocking the potential of the people around you by collaborating with them, listening to them, understanding them, focus on solving problems. And good things are going to happen. It really reminds me of that Steve Martin quote. He was asked at the end of some performance, you know, how do I get an agent or how do I become famous or how do I make it in the movie business? What agent do I need? And he said, you really need to be so good they can.

ignore you at whatever you're currently doing. Be so good they can ignore you. And then as you said, opportunities come. People tap on your shoulder. And for the people who lack maybe patience, that's hard to hear or ambitious people that at times can be hard to hear. But I've learned firsthand that that is absolutely accurate. I love that advice, Carly. And you you actually write about this in chapter two choosing the path over the plan. Can you expand more on that for? for those listening who are really ambitious, growth-oriented, want to be the Carly Fee Arena, the next Carly Fian Arena where they want to be the CEO of a Fortune 50 company. How would they then, let's get practical for a second, for the current mid-level manager,

how would they then choose the path over the plan and seek out problems to solve? So the people that I have seen, the reason I talk about that so explicitly in my book, find your way is because I have seen so many people derailed because they got so fixated on a plan to get from where they were to where they thought they were supposed to be, that they missed the opportunities along the way that were right in front of them, or they stepped on the people in their way, and that usually comes back to bite you. It may take time, but it usually comes back to bite you. And so they don't build effective teams.

So what I mean by finding the path is the way you operate, how you get things done over time matters as much, if not more, than what you get done. You know, everyone knows the person in the organization, who's the brown noser, who's the suck up, who always takes credit for everything, whether they deserve it or not, who's a lousy team player, who's always focused on getting ahead, getting ahead, getting ahead. Everybody knows that person, and guess what? Nobody likes that person. And maybe, maybe, and nobody really wants to work with that person. And maybe that person gets promoted a time or two.

But all of that behavior is going to catch up with them eventually. So what I would say to people is focus your considerable talents and your energies on where you can make a difference, where you can make a positive contribution. There are problems all around you. And by the way, there are people who understand how to make those problems better because they're impacted by them.

Work with them and make things better. And be proactive. Yes. Don't sit and wait for somebody to tell you what to do. It's interesting, Carly. I learned that. That's the advice my wife always gives to our daughters and to others that she mentors.

And I think it's how she kind of has made a great career for herself. And it's made an impact on me that anybody can sit there and just kind of do what they're told effective. I mean, do that well. Like that's good. Like we, you got to do that, right? If your boss tells you something and it's the right thing, you do it. But, but proactively seek out issues and become one of those people who is,

who is part of that solution or build the team of people around that. try to solve that problem. And it's not, with that said, it is not easy. If it was, then everybody would be doing it. So it's like seeking out what is tough and then running after it. That's right. And that in many ways, Ryan, is the difference between a manager and a leader. So managers are people who do a good job, maybe an excellent job within current constraints

and conditions. And managers get promoted. And frankly, a lot of CEOs are managers. A lot of people with positions and titles that suggest their leaders are not leaders. They're managers. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's different than being a leader. A manager does the best they can within the way things are. A leader changes the way things are.

Changes things for the better. And the only way you can change things for the better is to run to problems, seek out problems, and make it back. better. And what you find when you run towards a problem is there are lots of people who understand that problem. There are lots of people who complain about the problem. There are lots of people who talk about the problem. But there are very few people to your point who actually put their shoulder to the wheel and make the problem better. And that is the fundamental distinction between a manager and a leader. A manager operates around the problem, operates within the constraints that they find.

A leader fixes the problem and changes constraints. Did this behavior of you running towards the fire, was that something that has just been a part of you growing up? Or did you have to learn that? Did a mentor give you wise, sage advice early in your career? Where did that come from? Well, I think it's a combination of things. I believe that leaders are made not born, meaning I think all of us, myself included, but I think all of us are made by the experiences we have, the people we meet,

and how we take advantage of both experiences in people. I had parents who, like it sounds like you and your wife do with your daughters, but I had parents who were focused very much on the essential qualities of what now I recognize as leadership. They were focused on building character. They were focused on doing things the right way, not just the easy way. They were focused on positive contribution and impact. were focused on excellence and focused me on those same things. I also think that because I was sort of thrown in the deep end of the pool without a lot of the things that would have earmarked me

as a future leader, it turned out to be, as so many tough times in life are, it turned out to be a huge blessing. Because I had to ask a lot of questions. I had to figure out a lot. And one of the things that I figured out is I'm never going to keep my job or succeed in my job by trying to be like everyone else because I'm not like the people I see around me. So I'm going to have to make a positive contribution. What was exhilarating about that is that everywhere I looked, there were people who were waiting to make a difference.

It's just no one had ever asked them to. This guy who worked for me early on in my career named Jim, nobody paid any attention to him. He was kind of this dependable but average guy. He was an engineer. And one day I said to him, Jim, are there problems with the work you do? And he said, yeah, you know, I design this circuit

and then we get billed for it and the bills don't match the circuits. Okay, a small thing. It wasn't his job to fix that. But I said to him, well, what do you think we ought to do? And he said, I think we should check the bills against my designs. So I said, okay, let's do that. And I helped him get the resources to do it. Well, he saved the company $300 million over time.

There was a guy who was just waiting for someone to ask him, what would make this better? And those people are everywhere. And that's what got me going. You know, it was kind of like, wow, this is fun. This is impactful. I can make a difference this way. Can you explain or maybe share the story of you getting hired at HP

and the significance of what was happening in that moment, maybe some of the landscape of what it was like working and leading in corporate America at that time as because we've progressed since then. But what was that moment like for you as your, I assume there's some sort of recruitment and then the interview process and then they decide that you are the person. You're the one we want to lead. And you're a trailblazer. You're one of the first then to make this happen from the size of the company and being

a woman CEO. Like what was that like? And then what did it mean to you after that happened? Well, let me say, first of all, I wasn't looking for a job, and I was happy where I was at Lucent Technologies. We completed the biggest IPO in history at that point. I had a job I loved, but I was sitting in my office late one night, and the phone rang, and I picked it up, and it was a recruiter who said, don't hang up, don't hang up, I'm calling about the CEO job at HP. And he said, don't hang up, don't hang up, because he had called the office on earlier occasions, and my assistant had come in and said so-and-so from the headhunting firms on the phone,

and I said, not interested, don't want to talk to him. So thus begins a process. And HP at that time was a storied company, a legendary company, the founding company of Silicon Valley. but it was also a company in trouble. It had stopped growing, its profitability was deteriorating, the rest of Silicon Valley was passing it by, it was in the middle of a technology boom of massive proportion. And the recruitment process lasted almost nine months. Wow.

Six months, I should say, maybe not quite nine, but close, probably eight. all during that process, it never occurred to me, I will say, that I would be the first of anything. It never occurred to me. What I was focused on was what's really going on at this company. Am I really the right leader for this company at this time? Am I aligned with the board who is hiring and recruiting me as to what is happening at the company and what needs to happen at the company? It turns out that I was the first outsider ever hired into HP at the CEO level. I was the first non-engineer.

I was the first from outside the computer industry. And on top of all that, I was the first woman to lead a Fortune 50. None of those firsts occurred to me until the day my announcement was made. I know it sounds crazy that they wouldn't have occurred to me, but I was so focused on as I had always been. I was so focused on the work in front of me, not who I was and whether I was different, but what is the work in front of me and can I do the right thing by this work? And so when the announcement was made that day, it was just this massive amount of publicity

attention for which I was completely unprepared. And everyone wanted to talk about the fact that I was a woman. And what I wanted to talk about was the company. and what an incredible opportunity this company had in front of it. You say that we've progressed and we have, but the truth is that the statistics haven't changed much. The number of women in the C-suite and in the boardroom is about the same as it was 25 years ago, believe it or not.

So we've made great progress in some ways and a surprisingly little amount of progress in other ways. We can talk about why I think that is, but to your point, people asked me, well, what's it like to be the first woman CEO? People asked me that when I ran for president. What's it like to be a woman with all those men? And my answer honestly was, I don't know, I've never been a man. I don't know.

I've never been a man. It was, of course, also a very important part in the industry. That dot-com boom turned into a dot-com bust of ravaging proportions, less than two. years later, many, many, many companies went out of business. And so it was a very difficult time for the industry, a very difficult time for our company, and yet a very important time to undertake and ultimately achieve a transformation that needed to be made. In 1998, Fortune Magazine named you the most powerful woman an American business.

What is going through your head when you read that? Well, I will sound ungracious or ungrateful when I say this, and I'm not at all. I mean, obviously, it was a high honor. But I actually talked to the reporters and the editors of Fortune that year and for the six following years, where I remain number one for six years. I said, why are you rank ordering women? Why are you doing this? You don't rank order men. You don't have a magazine cover that is the 25 most powerful men in business.

By rank ordering women, what you're implying is that business is like tennis or golf. You know, there's a men's ladder and a women's ladder. There's the women's basketball team and the men's basketball team. In business, I hope we are learning that we, When everybody gets to play, when the team is diverse, the team is stronger. So if you want to highlight women in business, fantastic. If you want to highlight all the different kinds of people, men and women who are succeeding, great. But don't rank order us one to 50 and then make a big deal with if someone goes from 10 to 20.

So that's what was going through my mind, honestly, is that in a way it was a celebration of progress, but in another way, it was sending the wrong message. It's not somehow in our society, everything is a competition, and it's all about who's on top and who wins. And those are not the fundamentals of leadership. The fundamentals of leadership are unlocking potential in others and how you do things is as important as what you do. And the short-term win is not the same as the long-term gain. How competitive are you? Well, it depends what you mean by the term competitive.

So I am, I hope, always focused on excellence. Excellence for my team, whether that team is large or small, excellence for myself, excellence for the organization than I lead. But what I hope I never am is a win at all. costs person. Because what happens when, you know, that's what happens in businesses. When at all costs CEO, for example, says nothing is more important than making the quarter. Well, when you decide that nothing is more important than making the quarter, people end up making the quarter the wrong way. Yeah. It's easy to make a quarter every quarter. It really is, particularly in a big company. It's easy.

What's not as easy is getting to the right place in the right way. And yet, if you want a sustainable gain as opposed to a short-term win, how you do things matters as much as what you do. So competitive, yes. Focused on excellence, yes. But we're remembering always that a win at all costs where you justify any means based upon the end you're trying to achieve, that's not a win. How did you respond?

So you mentioned before that the timing of you getting it and then what happened in the industry was not ideal for tons of companies, as you talked about. And yet, when you're the CEO, as you know, and I'm sure felt, if things don't go well, you will get an amazing amount of criticism. And you have for parts of what. happened at HP. What was what was your process for for dealing with the criticism that comes along with being the CEO of such a large company when things don't go perfectly? Well, the first thing that I would say is whether you're a leader who's a CEO or you're the leader of anything,

a small band of people, if you're that woman on top of the rooftop, in the slums of New Delhi. If you are a leader who's trying to change the order of things for the better, make a positive impact and solve a problem, you will get criticized. In other words, criticism is the price of leadership. Now, there's no question. When you're the CEO of a very big company and you're a first, which puts more attention on you no matter what, and it's a very difficult environment. you're going to get even more criticism. It's also true that things are never perfect.

One of the reasons that character is so important in leadership is because the going is always going to be tough. It's always going to be tough. Things never go the way you anticipate it. But the reason courage is so important is because criticism is the price of leadership. And so what I focus on always, what I tried to focus on every day as a CEO, was am I doing the right things for the right reasons in the right ways to the best of my ability. And if I could answer that question, yes, then you've got to move forward. Have I made a decision

that I have considered carefully? Have I looked at all aspects of this problem? Have I considered the advice of everyone who knows anything about it? Have I been, in other words, thoughtful and judicious and wise in this decision? If I could answer that question, Yes, then you need to proceed and just understand criticism comes with the territory. It's why you have to have courage. What about handling a board? There are companies and leaders of all shapes and sizes listening to the show and everyone has their form of a board, whether it's bosses or literally a board that they have to meet with and discuss the business.

And there's stuff written about the fact that you didn't always agree. or align with your board and that ultimately probably played a role in you leaving HP. How would, what was that like? What was that, as you said, there's a lot of firsts going on with you when it became, when you became the CEO at HP and not necessarily always being on the same page as them. How did you handle that and manage that? Well, first I would say that with regard to the big decisions at HP, we were always aligned.

There was a lot of press that suggested that the reason I left HP was because we weren't aligned on the compact acquisition. That was not true. We were completely aligned on that acquisition. Boards are like any other team.

It's just that many boards don't consider themselves a team. I've been on a lot of boards. I've chaired boards. I've been on boards. I've had boards as bosses. boards at their worst are a collection of individuals, all of whom are very accomplished, and therefore many of whom have large egos, who don't consider themselves a team, but who consider themselves a collection of individuals. That collection of individuals tends to be dysfunctional.

Well-functioning boards function really as teams. I would say, I mean, I advise a lot of boards. As I mentioned, I've been on a lot of boards. I would say the majority of boards don't function very well because they don't always consider themselves a team. In my particular case, we had, although we were aligned on the strategic and operational issues of the company, we had two board members who, after we made a decision around personnel, it turned out, not strategy or operations.

We had two board members who didn't like the decision that the rest of the board had come to, and so they started leaking confidential conversations of the board to the press. That was, of course, completely dysfunctional and a violation of our code of conduct. And so I spoke to the board at large and said, this behavior has to change,

and if it doesn't, then I have to leave because I can't function. in this environment. The company can't function in this environment. And ultimately, the board, by the way, I could have cast a vote as chairman and prevented my leaving. I chose not to do that because I thought it was vital for the board to look at itself and decide the kind of team they wanted to be. And I thought it was vital over the long run for the company as well. I knew that when I departed, there would be a massive amount of criticism publicly on the world stage and a massive amount of fake news, if I can use that term about why I was leaving. But what I've learned over

time is that the truth is always the most important thing. And I walked away knowing that I could answer the questions I laid out before. Am I doing the right things for the right reasons in the right ways to the best of my ability. I answered that question, yes. My soul was intact, my character was intact, and ultimately a year later, the board finally concluded the two board members had to be fired. It should have happened sooner, but that's the way it is sometimes. So my point is, boards are not all seeing, all-knowing organizations. They're a collection of individuals. And like any other collection of individuals, you have bad actors and good actors. You have functional teams and you have dysfunctional teams. And so what I would say is a board to be

effective needs to invest time in becoming a functional team. Wow. Okay. So let's fast forward a bit, Carly. I vividly remember you on the debate stage watching and it was, I don't know how I'd phrase it. It was like total domination. Was that the first debate, I feel like it was? Where it was just obvious that you had really taken over. What was that like? You're running for president.

You're in this first or one of the debates at least that I'm talking about the near the beginning. And you had made a name for yourself, but then you really kind of put it over the top. what was it like the prep process and then doing it and then the feeling afterwards when it was evident that you had not to get competitive again but you you had won on that particular day. What was all that like? Well, the debate you're probably referring to was actually the second debate. The way the debate process was organized was around national polling.

This was true on the Republican side as well as the Democrat side. I don't think that process serves our republic well. But because everything was determined on national polling, and when I say everything, I mean, did you get on the debate stage, the main debate stage, or the kiddie debate stage, how long you got to talk, where you got to stand, everything was determined by national polls. So if you're someone like me who wasn't very well known, I mean, the business community knew me, but less than 4% of primary voters had ever heard my name, I knew that debates were important. And in the end, obviously, that process, that criteria helped people who were well known,

because it gave them more and more and more air time. But my point is, I went into that debate understanding two things, that this was perhaps one of the very few opportunities I had to introduce myself to a whole lot of people. That's the one thing I knew. And the second thing I knew is that I was going to be asked about a set of comments that then candidate Donald Trump had made about my physical appearance because it made big news. I, of course, studied the policy issues. They were not new to me. I've been around policy, public policy, a long time. But I believe in being prepared. And so I had my points of view about policy positions well honed in my mind. But the thing that really stood out from that debate was the comment that I made when asked, how would I

respond to Donald Trump's comments about my appearance? And for that, I did not prepare at all. For that, I've had so many men over the years make comments about my physical appearance, either positive or negative, that it wasn't really newsworthy to me that Donald Trump had done that. And so I knew I would be asked about it. And I knew that if I were in that moment and present, that I would know what to say at the time. And it turned out that Donald Trump gave me the words to say because he and Jeb Bush had been having an exchange before. And he, he, he, and Jeb Bush had been having a exchange before. And he, Donald Trump was saying that Jeb to Jeb Bush, well, everyone heard what you said. And so when they asked me what my response to Donald Trump was, I said,

every woman in America heard what Donald Trump said. He gave me the words to use that were perfect for that setting. And I guess what I would say to try and be a little bit more general about your question. In my experience, what works best is to be prepared for a situation to do your homework, to think about what you're trying to get done in a particular setting, whether that's a debate or a meeting or a game, to be prepared, but then to be really present and be able to use your experience and your instincts in the moment. I think that turns out always to be more authentic, but I've seen a lot of people get themselves so prepped that they don't actually use what's going on around them. They don't take advantage of the opportunity that's around them,

and they don't hear or see what's going on around them. And that makes them less effective. After that was over, did you think we have a real shot of winning this thing? Well, I always knew it was a very, very, very long shot because I didn't have any of the political infrastructure because I was relatively unknown. Frankly, everyone assumed that Jeb Bush, Marker, Rubea, or Scott Walker would be the nominee. So, no, I didn't permit myself to think, okay, we have a real shot at winning this thing. But what I did know was that we had a different opportunity in front of us then because more people had seen me and perhaps understood what I was about. You're also a prolific writer. You've written multiple books, bestsellers, really well done.

And the most recent one is called Find Your Way, Unleash Your Power. and highest potential. Why was this the right time for this particular book to be written by you? It's such an interesting question, Ryan. I think I felt strongly that this was the right time for this book by me because I think we are very confused about what leadership actually is. I think our culture lifts up conflict, controversy, winning at all costs, fame, notoriety. We spend endless amounts of time hanging with our own tribe and castigating or criticizing anyone who's in another tribe.

we, in other words, we've gotten really confused about leadership. We think it's about position or title or fame or money. Instead of lifting up character, we lift up controversy and conflict and outrage. Instead of lifting up courage, we lift up people who get a million likes and fitting in and blending in. We curate our lives on Instagram. I feel as though we need to be reminded of who leaders really are and what leaders really do. And I think as well, people need to remember that everyone has the capacity for leadership. Leaders are made not born.

Everyone can choose to change the order of things for the better. Everyone can choose to collaborate with humility and empathy with others, whether they agree with them 100% or not. everyone can choose courage, everyone can choose character, everyone can choose, anyone can choose, to see the possibilities in a set of circumstances or to conclude that nothing will ever change. In other words, I think so much of the essence that I have come to know, leadership is about and leaders are all about. So much of the essence of leadership is so countercultural these days that I thought it was time for a refresher course. Wow. Carly, I'd be curious to ask you this question. I was recently asked in a Q&A after a keynote speech about privilege.

Particularly, I've told part of my story. I am a white male who grew up in America with two. incredible parents, still have those two incredible parents who did very well for themselves in the business world and the community and never wanted for anything. That is really kind of hitting the lottery from a privileged perspective. I was a little bit stumped on how to respond to that person other than really just to state those facts and to say, well, I feel like I've gotten lucky and I want to make the most of that luck. And that's what I try to do every single day. What are your thoughts on privilege, particularly coming from your perspective and point of view,

you've traveled the world, you lived all over the place. You mentioned part of that time in Italy, but I know you've lived and traveled to many other places too. So you have a really fascinating perspective on this word called privilege. What do you think about that? Well, I can imagine the context in which that question was asked. And in a way, that word comes up. And, you know, that word comes up a lot in the political context now. But let's take it away from the political context just for a moment. Of course, everything the things you, everything you just described is an incredible privilege. It is a privilege to have two caring parents who love you, as did I, and who give you the opportunity for a great education. It is a privilege to live in a country where

our future is not determined by our past or our appearance or our last name, those things are true privileges. And it is, we talked about the combination of clear-eyed realism and optimism, we must be clear-eyed and realistic in saying that not everyone has those privileges, and not everyone in this country has those privileges. And we are not yet a nation. where everyone has an equal opportunity to escape their circumstances. That's a fact of where we are. It is also true, it is also true that we cannot judge someone by their circumstances, whether those circumstances are terrible or whether those circumstances are privileged.

So I think we should judge people by their character, their contribution, their actions, their behavior, not their beliefs, not their past, not their privilege or lack of it. And I also think that if we want to achieve more, I don't care whether it's in a company, a community, a sports team, a small entrepreneurial team, I don't care what kind of team it is. If we want to achieve excellence, it requires people who are different from one another to work together towards a common purpose

and a worthy goal. People who are all the same don't achieve as much as people who are different who find common. and ground and worthy purpose. That's my experience as well. Shane Snow would say those are what dream teams are made of.

That's right. Diversity of thought. Carly, this is, I love your perspective and actually a weird thing, but your cadence. The measured kind of thoughtful approach is something that I really value in a person and a leader. And I can hear the thought you put into your response. And that means a lot to me. So I want to say thank you for that. And I'm excited for your book, find your way, unleash your power and highest potential for

people to get it, read it, digest it, and have it positively impact your life. Because I think you're really on to something. I'm glad that you decided to write this book and get it out into the world at this time. Well, Ryan, thank you so much. I really have enjoyed the conversation. And I know you lift up a lot of leadership. through the work you do as well. So thank you for that. Thank you. Where would you send my listeners to learn more about you online?

Carlyfeorina.com. Very easy. Carlyfeorina.com. You can pre-order the book. You can learn about the work we're doing through the unlocking potential foundation in the nonprofit world. So come on and give us a look. Perfect. All right. Well, Carly, thanks again. I absolutely want to continue our dialogue as we both progress. I hope so. All right. Thanks so much, Carly. Okay. Wow, that was a fascinating conversation with Carly. I found her to be so thoughtful, caring, really smart and interesting. And I enjoyed her stories and her willingness to really go anywhere, the high points and low points of her career.

I'm fascinated by that. And I think we can all relate. She's had an incredible career and is still right in the middle of it. I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. If so, I would love it. You would write a review, rate the show, and subscribe in iTunes, Apple Podcasts. Write a review, subscribe and rate the show, hopefully five stars in iTunes, Apple Podcasts. It really helps spread the message in addition to you telling a friend by getting it out there on iTunes where a lot of people listening.

I'm so grateful and appreciative for you listening and sharing and being a part of this Learning Leader tribe. It means so much to me. All right. See you next week. Okay. Are you still there? I am. Oh, thank you so much. That was incredibly great.

I mean, really, really. I just have my hands hurting because I just try to write a lot of notes. So that was just really well done. I appreciate the care and thought you put into literally every answer. Well, you ask good questions, so that helps too. Oh, well, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it.

And I'll be sure to follow up with Eric and let him know when this thing's edited and ready to go live. Great. Thank you so much, Ryan. Yeah, absolutely. By the way, I won't have any, really, there won't be any edits. They'll just be kind of putting the intro, outro, that type of stuff. Yeah, no, I understand. Gotcha. All right, thanks, Carly. Thanks, Ryan. All right. Bye-bye.