The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 327: Marc Roberge - How To Create Fans For Life (O.A.R.)

Starting point is 00:00:00 In order to be in the driver's seat, you have to know what other people's powers are. What are their superpowers? And if that is another leadership person, a person with that quality, they need to be able to flourish. Real quick, before we get to this episode, I want to let you know that we have opened up tickets for our once a year personal excellence workshop. We did this last year and received incredible reviews, so we wanted to do it again this year, but make it even better. to the topics that I personally teach on. I have reached out to the subject domain experts within my network to be with us in the room and share their expertise.

Starting point is 00:00:41 Things like how to harness your personal and professional flywheel to build an incredible career. Secrets from a professional keynote speaking coach. How to become a learning machine. How to utilize the mindset of a professional athlete in the business world and so, much more. This workshop is ideal for you if you want to interact with intellectually curious and interesting people. If you want to accelerate your personal and professional growth, if you have an open mind and are not afraid to be challenged, and if you are currently leading a team or

Starting point is 00:01:17 have a desire to at some point in your future. For more details, go to ryanhawk.me. This event is intentionally kept small so the experience is intimate, engaging, and interactive. for more details and to get your ticket. Go to Ryanhawk.me. Welcome to the Learning Leaders Show presented by Brixie and Meyer. I am Ryan Hawk. Thanks so much for being here. Text learners to 44222 in order to join tens of thousands of learning leaders from all over the world.

Starting point is 00:01:57 Receive Mindful Monday updates. What I'm reading, writing, watching, thinking about. Also have the opportunity to be part of my book launch team. learners to 4422. Now on tonight's featured leader, this is truly a special one. It's with my friend Mark Robares, the lead singer and rhythm guitar player for OAR of a Revolution. He is also their primary songwriter and has been described by his bandmates as, quote, our leader. He formed the band with his best friend and drummer Chris for an eighth grade talent show 23 years ago in Rockville, Maryland.

Starting point is 00:02:33 I first saw him play at a college bar called First Run on the Miami University campus in Oxford, Ohio, my freshman year in 2000. Since then, OAR has gone on to sell out Madison Square Garden. We recorded this one in person in Austin, Texas, side stage at Stubbs Waller Creek Amphitheater. It was so cool. Few of the topics we discussed. Mark's four phases of leadership and the importance of evolving as you grow. And then how to foster a culture where it's okay to have respectful disagreements. And he shared a story preparing the set list for Madison Square Garden where the band disagreed

Starting point is 00:03:14 and how they worked through. It's really interesting. And then the resistance of chasing the approval of others and how Mark has resisted this and more importantly, how you can too. Ladies and gentlemen, this one is so good. It's Mark Robairs. So let's set the stage here, Mark. We are sitting, I can see the stage down in Austin, Texas, and I just want to say once,

Starting point is 00:03:42 thank you so much for doing this, man, and being a part of my show. I should be the one thanking you for always through the years being persistent. Like, let's get together, let's do this. Finally, like, I was not making it easy to be in the state of Ohio or even close to the state of Ohio, so you were nice enough to come to Austin, Texas, which is a beautiful city and also this venue, which is very classic and famous here. Stubs. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:04:07 I mean, well, I would have to say, you know, our history, although you don't, you didn't fully know this until recently or maybe a couple years ago, starts, it's 20 years ago. I mean, I started going to see you guys play at first run in Oxford, Ohio when I was a student at Miami, and I believe it was either 2000 or 2001. I mean, take us back to that moment and those shows. There were probably a hundred people there in a bar. Right. And now, and then you fast forward years and you're in Madison Square Garden, things like that.

Starting point is 00:04:38 I mean, what's that like? I mean, those days 2000, 2001 was already five years into our quote-unquote career. I mean, we never called it that at that point. But we had already put out two albums going on three. We are just about to release our big live album that was recorded in Washington, D.C. at the 930 Club, which became like our benchmark. Soon thereafter, we were an independent record label, one of the biggest in the world,

Starting point is 00:05:08 selling, like having gold albums, which was unheard of. But we're right at that moment in 2000, 2001, where we're slugging it out regionally in Ohio. All according to the plan, first plan was, we came up in Maryland, we went to Ohio State. We only picked that school because it was the most bars within a certain amount of miles. between there in Texas.

Starting point is 00:05:32 We didn't get into Texas. There it was. And there it is. Ohio State. They gave us the Buckeye scholarship, the $2,500 bucks. And what was it? It's this amazing thing the Ohio State University does where people out of state like me, who don't have great grades or anything, but maybe have some okay test scores,

Starting point is 00:05:52 they'll give you like this Buckeye National Scholarship. So the parents open that letter and see scholarship, $2,500. hundred bucks, it's like, do you're in. It's not a lot of money, but it's a lot of money. You know what I'm saying? When you're like where we're from and you're trying to go to college, that's a lot of money. So we're there. We're all according to plan. We're going regionally in the ban, going out there at night, coming home for classes because we all wanted to graduate. When you're playing that gig in Oxford at first run, how much money do you make for that? Do you even remember? I mean, do you make like a hundred bucks? Do you make, because you got to split it up

Starting point is 00:06:25 between, you know. So I believe, I want to say Anthony Makes might have been the promoter on that. It was certainly a friend. As we were coming up, we made friends with the promoters who were young as well. Yeah. But our initial idea was to rent out venues and sell our own tickets. We realized that it may be hard for us to be booked. We had no history. Why don't we rent these places out? We rented out Newport because they wouldn't book us. Eventually they started booking us and Steinacher was amazing to us. But when we started slugging it out, we were making deals. So I imagine at that place, we were not getting paid much. However, probably the second time, we went in there and said, okay, we'll take this and you

Starting point is 00:07:05 do this. And it was friendly and working things out. I'm sure they made money. I hope they did. But money was not part of the equation at the beginning. It was enough money to keep the van gassed up. It's like the reason you want to sell tickets is just so you get to keep doing it, right? I mean, that's why if you're doing something you love,

Starting point is 00:07:24 And I feel this too, like in what the stuff I'm doing, whether it's podcasting and speaking, helping with leaders. The primary reason why you're so happy that it goes well is because then you get to do it again and again and again. You'll see that. That's a major theme in what we do now. And it's similar to that at the time, at the time we were, we had two goals. One, finished college. Two would be to build this band for real. I mean, we had every intention of being a touring band that made money to pay. for our rent and lives. That was our intention from age 15. Yeah, because you guys, what, eighth grade talent show?

Starting point is 00:08:02 Eighth grade talent show, even. When we looked at Pearl Jam, that's who we wanted to be like. But it really happened when I looked at my brother's band called Foxtrad Zulu. They're a jam band out of the Northeast. And I saw them going around in RVs and vans and coming to my parents' house

Starting point is 00:08:17 and staying in the basement, and we were outside, you know, and doing the things you do with your older brother. And I thought this was the greatest life. It was a nomadic life. I wanted to do that for real, but I was highly aware of the difference between a band who really does it on the road, gets out there and scrapes your knee and goes for it, and then maybe someone who just skips those steps. We had no interest in that. We wanted to get on the road.

Starting point is 00:08:42 So from age 15, watching them, I knew that we had to build this thing to sustain. So it was never about money in the beginning. It was about gaining ground. that's a huge thing now gaining ground you know progressing moving forward but building your base wider and stronger and wider and stronger and wider and stronger i watched a documentary about you guys and you played the adjective game about each member of the band you probably remember this and got to the part where they said mark and they did quick cuts to each member of the band and the crew and it was neat to see that the first word i believe out of almost everybody's mouth was

Starting point is 00:09:22 he's our leader, leader, leader, leader. He's the chief leader. And then other ones were like, he's a great guy. I like some of the crew guys said that. So my whole show is about leadership. And so that's why I was fascinated about a creative leader. So the combination of you being one of my favorite bands, favorite performers for the last 20 years, man,

Starting point is 00:09:44 that's crazy to say that. That's amazing. Plus the fact that you're a leader of creative people, I think that is a really, it has to be a chief. challenging endeavor, but I'd love to hear from you as someone who, you are the leader. They've said that about you. You may think, well, we're all equals, but I think they look to you. So how do you view leading creative people? For me personally, it's been a journey of stages. The first stages were easy to be a leader because I was driven completely by my vision of what I had. I mean, I knew

Starting point is 00:10:18 I wanted to make music about wandering the world, and I wanted to make music about my life, and I wanted to write these songs because they made me feel better. And the only way to do that would be to be with folks who shared your vision and to empower each other to move that forward. But I didn't even know that at the beginning. I just knew that me and Chris, we love playing, and Richard and Benj and then Jerry, and we all loved what we were doing and believed in what our message was. So that was the first stage was just unknowingly taking the driver's seat of something because you were so close to it and it was your dream.

Starting point is 00:10:55 All your words, all your visions, all your stuff. But then it's our vision because everyone puts in the time and the man hours to like move it. The second stage was when you may no longer provide the best leadership at the time. Maybe your personal life is taking on so much heat. that you can't be a successful leader. So what you need to do is empower someone in your camp to lead. And that is the second stage was where, wow, okay, in order to be in the driver's seat, you have to know what other people's powers are.

Starting point is 00:11:33 What are their superpowers? And if that is another leadership person, a person with that quality, they need to be able to flourish. Jerry stepped up in a major way on the business end of what we do. logistics, right, making it all go and carried it for a long time while I wasn't able to give my complete creative vision. So creative vision was something I always had and then I just wasn't feeling it for a little bit. And then, why not? Well, because I think so many other things were happening in my world that it wasn't as important to me. You mean like family? Yeah, I know you had your

Starting point is 00:12:12 wife had briefly had cancer. Is that what you're talking about? That and at that time period, that's a no-brainer. So that wasn't even like, oh, God, business. Right. You're away. Yeah. Which album that was, which album that was? It was 2009, 2010, 2011.

Starting point is 00:12:27 And so I remember you read something along the lines of, I couldn't really give everything I had to that because you were home. You were with her. Yeah. And so that other people have to pick up the slack. Sure. And that was really a time period, but it was compounded by other things in the world of the everything was happening.

Starting point is 00:12:45 America, 2008, 9, 10. I mean, you remember, it was a downturn in touring and downturn in everything. No one wanted to spend money. So it's hard to maintain everything you've built, but we did because of guys like Jerry, right? So when I'm not paying attention to the fact that you're growing this business and then all of a sudden you need to maintain it, I'm focused on something I want to be focused on and also other compounding factors. It was really important to have a team of leaders. So that was stage two. Stage three was Chris, our drummer, my best friend, my entire life, who handles all of our packaging,

Starting point is 00:13:24 presentations of our albums and everything you see in the albums. It's his shit. He basically one day said, hey man, like we love your creative vision. We love this world we're building together. And what do you think about maybe giving it a go, you know, getting back in that head? You know, he kind of just nudged me, hey man, let's create some stuff. You know, we did all these great things for so many years. Let's do it again.

Starting point is 00:13:54 And at that point in time, I was ready to just, it's not something I can force. I mean, the stories come and all these ideas come and you have to be ready to take them. I wasn't ready to take them, but then I became ready. So that was stage three, and I became really motivated to get back in that driver's seat creatively. But now I had all these amazing co-pilots again that had their own industry. individual genius, and that's just a word I use amongst us. We all know we're individually dumb as well. We're aware.

Starting point is 00:14:22 But they do have all these amazing talents like Richard with merchandise, and, you know, and it's just, everyone has this thing. And that is where we started up again, co-pilots. We're all sitting up there and we're driving this huge bus called OAR. And then it just kept going and opportunities are starting knocking at your door. Do you want to do a song for the Olympics? Do you want to do this for this and this for this? World Series.

Starting point is 00:14:45 You know, it really requires you to say yes, believe yes, and follow through. So stage three of my leadership, I think, came when you just realized the powers around you and you know how to harness that. And just everyone, and they're looking at you for your special individual talent, and you're looking at them for that, and everyone's expecting everyone to step up. That was like the afterburners for us. And now we're in a system that is, and as it's starting, It built on mutual respect and admiration, but really proved it through tough times where we're enjoying that sort of control on our system.

Starting point is 00:15:23 Being a leader has to show that when things maybe aren't going great, maintain, be positive, and move forward. Don't give up and flare your arms and run away. So we're kind of in the period right now where we're really comfortable in how we operate. We know how we operate, and now we just need to get better at it. Because business is just as big of a part of live entertainment and music, traveling, playing songs. You can either pretend it doesn't exist as a lot of artists do, and that's the right to be just the art. But like, we're out here slugging it out.

Starting point is 00:15:59 And we're out of making shows. Grinding, you're going to go play. And that's it. So that's a really long answer, but it's been like 20-something years. So I'm trying to. It's actually amazing to see the level and depth of thought that you've put into this thought of leadership. You could have answered that by saying, hey, man, like, I just like playing music and I want to go play.

Starting point is 00:16:18 And if a guy doesn't hold up his end of the bargain, we're going to replace him with somebody else. And that's how I lead. Instead, you have these four phases of leadership that I think translate to the business world, translate to anybody who's listening. And I think one of the other things that comes up is I saw an example of, I think, respectful disagreement amongst you guys. so you're deciding which song to open at Madison Square Garden. And so let me make sure I get it. So you, I believe, wanted to do City on Down and Jerry wanted love. Do you remember this?

Starting point is 00:16:51 Yeah. Jerry wanted love and memories. And I remember watching it thinking, wait, does Jerry want love and memories so he can have the spotlight and the power cords on him to start Madison Square Garden? And you thought for City on Down has a better buildup. So let's build into Madison Square. garden. But it was this, it was a cool example of how you guys, it seemed pretty easily move through a differing opinions and eventually it ended up being love and memories. First, your, what you wanted

Starting point is 00:17:22 was not the choice that was made. How do you guys go about making those types of calls when you disagree? There's even more to that story. That's an interesting thing when you're throwing in the curveball, right? So there was a third party in that conversation of our manager, Bruce Flore, who at the time was on the outskirts of our management team. We have a great company called Red Light Management, but at the time it's just different positioning of who's in what position to make recommendations. We welcome all recommendations,

Starting point is 00:17:52 but at the time probably didn't. I mean, we were just very much in the moment of MSG. We really need to concentrate. Well, he walks in the room and goes, not only should you do love and memories, but you should double the intro of the guitar riff so that it's twice as long, It gives the audience twice as long to like figure out what the hell's going on right now.

Starting point is 00:18:12 Power. It's powerful. It draws in it. And they were right. And so look, I know when I'm wrong. I know when I'm right too. And there's probably a hundred other experiences that didn't go the way that they wanted it to. But again, it's Jerry and everyone else, they are like me.

Starting point is 00:18:31 Okay. When you're wrong, we're right. You go move on. You know, it's, there's nothing to be upset about. when you're talking about our show at MSG. I just felt like, yeah, we're all in this together. It's the same vibe we've always had. Good ideas, you know, it's a self-filtering system.

Starting point is 00:18:48 If you're saying an idea, I'm assuming you've already worked it through in your head, and it's probably a good idea. I just gotta listen. And then you weigh it and you understand that that moment, it was perfect, and that was the first time we played that riff twice in a row. We've since done it every single time since then. And it's kicked off shows, hundreds of shows. So it's like another aspect of, I think, leadership is know when you're wrong or that the other idea is better and just move on.

Starting point is 00:19:19 Well, I think what's the leaders that I appreciate and like to follow are the ones who they'll state their opinion. They then know they've set the culture up to where other people are free and willing and able to share what they believe. and if it turns out that they're right, you go, yeah, that's it. And from my opinion and from probably a lot of people's opinion, and yours, it sounds like, that he was right. They were right in that call, which I found to be a really, I don't know if other people picked up when you see that documentary, but a really great example of you being a leader of saying, yeah, okay. And then it cuts to the chords. And that was a selfish moment. My idea was a selfish moment. Because right before that, we had played with. Dave Matthews band a bunch of times and I remember and look I grew up a fan of Dave Matthews man, Pearl Jam, you know certain groups that changed my whole outlook on things. Janice's Phil Collins, Bob Marley and the Whalers, Peter Tosh, all these great artists right, when one of them standing next to you and you're playing the intro to City on down and I haven't gone on stage yet and the band's playing and

Starting point is 00:20:27 it's like building building building and he says I really like this. Dave said that David said and I'm like okay and then where When I'm building a show, I selfishly go, I'm going to put this first because that's my moment. And so what the lesson is is I was wrong, and I wasn't thinking of the big picture, and they were. And that's like, look, you've got to be straight up about business. It's like we're all trying to move this thing forward.

Starting point is 00:20:52 And I think it's important, like you said. You know, there's a lot of leaders out here, man. Everyone's got good ideas. Speaking of Dave, I've been to a ton of Dave shows, and I've heard that I've been to shows when you've opened for them. I've heard about the story at the gorge. Can you share what happened with the first row of fans? Oh, I was like in my head, I'm thinking,

Starting point is 00:21:12 damn, okay, which one is he talking about? What does he know? Oh, well, maybe there's something else. There's a lot of stories of the gorge. You're there for three days straight, yeah. Wasn't the fans, like, had an issue because they're so protective of Dave? Oh, yeah, they love him in that band. And, you know, you'll be lucky if they come in from the parking lot by the time you play.

Starting point is 00:21:31 We luck out. People do come in. Yeah. However, a whole row of fans turn their backs on us and stare and look the other way for the whole, I don't know, first couple songs. And it didn't hurt my feelings. Really? No, hell no. I wasn't, look, my feelings don't get hurt.

Starting point is 00:21:50 I get, I mean, I might have a little Napoleon issue going. Like, I get mad. I was there a little bit of saying, just wait, like, I'm going to, I get mad. Okay, okay. Not mad at them, but just like, okay, all right. We'll see. We'll see. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:22:04 And they all turn around and I'm like, all right, this is my new goals just to like play my set. And they will turn around. I didn't mention them. And then they all eventually turn around. But it's like a lesson. It's like, listen, you can either get hurt. It feels so bad for me. I'm playing songs at the gorge and people don't like it.

Starting point is 00:22:19 It's like, no, no, no. I get to play songs at the gorge. They're going to at least show respect. And I won't show respect by not mentioning them right now. Yep. And that was a really good learning experience for me. I've had a similar experience when opening for the Sprite Liquid Mix tour was opening that show for folks and being not booed off but everyone pointing to the side.

Starting point is 00:22:40 Like get off the stage. Go. Go. You're done. And my method there was, hey, I got 10 more minutes. I got a contract. I have to play. So y'all want to be in with me on this and let's work through the and they loved it and it wins them over. It's just like, look, not everyone's going to like you, but they're going to respect me. And it's like, and it's just because of the grind. Yeah. It's like I don't like every athlete in every sport, but I respect every single one of them for the grind they put in to get to that point. Yeah. You gave a TED talk that I thought was phenomenal. Thanks, man.

Starting point is 00:23:13 Since you know it afterwards. But it was really about what I gathered was authenticity was a word that came out of that for me about being real and true to yourself. What was your motivation behind giving that talk and sharing, I think, your truth there? So for me, everything that I've done in life has stemmed from like a few childhood memories. Everything I've created, everything I've wanted to create, everything I plan on creating stems from a few of these nostalgic, pinpointed moments in my childhood that were just right. One of which was being on driveways with my buddies growing up, playing guitar sitting on my shitty car, you know and we had three tinted windows and that that whole description of sitting there with my

Starting point is 00:24:02 my boys writing a song called i feel home that i would eventually play at one of their funerals while we looked out at the yard of our friends bouncing around frank's house those memories i cherish so much that i've tried to build my whole life to tell the story of what as people like we can do together. When we're together, we need each other. And it can give you the human experience. And I wanna take those memories and build on them. So the TED Talk was my opportunity to explain

Starting point is 00:24:39 what it is I do. The Fans for Life title of it and the theme throughout, the thread throughout is basically about people who know that feeling. And pretty much all of us do. There's something where you grew up that happen amongst your people in a positive way that can guide you where you want to go because it inspires you. And any negative stuff makes you stronger for the real fight that's about to come

Starting point is 00:25:06 when you get out in the world. So this was an easy thing to talk about for me. It was easy to put the songs in. It was easy to discuss the timeline because none of it was fake. And your authenticity is something we should all strive for, I think, but in my case, I'm literally just telling the same story over and over and over again because it makes me feel good. It's like it's the preface to every other story. Anywhere I've gone in life has been because I had a crew of friends who supported us. Like our parents supported us, but our crew, it was like you're in the basement playing drums with your friends and your best friends are just kicking it. and hanging. And then you're on the front lawn and you're doing it there. It was like,

Starting point is 00:25:52 we were living some life that we dreamt of. We were watching dazed and confused the movie and going, that's kind of like our life. We're living in this suburban area where everyone has opportunity and is exposed to the city five seconds away and all these great things. We got all this opportunity and I just want to tell that story because it reminds me of, you know, the movie stand by me or stranger things or any of that sort of vibe yeah it's that driveway vibe man and i just ted talk was easy what about the the resistance of of of chasing the approval of others that's one of the key points too is that you had to because i think that to me felt like you're you're helping people in the audience helping the people who are going to watch that of of it's hard like that's hard

Starting point is 00:26:39 to resist that yet that was that's part of your story that's part of you and your band so that's that theme is again rooted in unabashedly telling a story about where you come from sticking by the same sort of morals that we were all instill with coming up and sticking with them because they were valid and they kind of like guided us in the right way so it's almost like all those other things fall into place when you're just not making up a story I mean I'm just not out there trying to build something that will sell. We're literally just being honest about everything that we experienced and everyone can relate to it.

Starting point is 00:27:28 So I'm not seeking approval because we're not adjusting our music or sound to fit in with anything. The music is about how does it make you feel? Have we had misses? Hell yeah. Of course we've had misses where maybe you were misguided by your own dreams of like youth or something where you're like making a song that doesn't fit for you. But when I'm just out there doing this music from the heart, making it ourselves with people we trust,

Starting point is 00:27:56 we don't have to bend to anyone else. It's not even on the radar. We do seek approval. Otherwise, I walk outside naked every day. I mean, we put on clothes that match sometimes because we want to look. I get that. But as far as our music and our brand and our build and everything we do, it literally is about family.

Starting point is 00:28:13 It's about home. It's about all the things that make us. feel warm and fuzzy, so we're never seeking another neighborhood. I don't know if you know him. Do you know Brian Coppelman? He lives in New York. He wrote the movie Rounders, the show Billions. I talked to Brian in New York, actually, and... Wait, there's a connection here. Okay. Okay, but you go on, but... Okay. So he told me, like, he tries to live his life, and I've kind of taken this ethos myself of chasing his curiosity and obsessions with great, rigor and i love that entire sentence of if you can create some sort of a life to do that man like i know

Starting point is 00:28:53 we have mortgages and kids and houses and cars but let's try like let's like let's like let's try to do that and that's how what he does that's what i try to do i feel like that's i thought of him in that statement with hearing you say this this sounds like you're chasing you're going after aggressively your curiosity obsessions with great rigor yes because Because I'll break it down like this. My dream, you see Larry David is in this office, right? And he's got his office. And he sits there and he thinks of funny ideas or concepts or anything.

Starting point is 00:29:28 He goes there for a couple hours. He has a meeting. He goes, eats lunch, he comes and then he makes a show. My dream is to be in a, when we do have a great studio, where we're in there and we're in our element. We've built something that allows us time to create. And if we think of something great, we can chase that down.

Starting point is 00:29:47 That's our dream. So like our office is moving. It's on buses right now, but when we're in the studio. So that sort of vibe is something I'm chasing. I'm chasing two things. One, aggressively. Keep working on the live show so that you can continue to play a live show. We love what we do.

Starting point is 00:30:07 You have to work at it to keep it. If you neglect that road, if you don't play five nights a week, it's not going to be there for you. We love that. You got to get the reps. You got to get the reps. So we're aggressively chasing that and we love what we do and we want to maintain what we do and no one's going to just give it to us every year. That's the one thing.

Starting point is 00:30:27 The other thing I'm aggressively chasing is that position where we can put on, say we think of an event where Aspen or Vail or something where we say for the weekend, we're taking over the city. We're going to put musicians on each corner. We're going to play a show here. We're going to ski with it. Can we chase that down? Sure.

Starting point is 00:30:44 because we've done the work to get the numbers. Jerry's done logistics. He knows the towns. It's like, yeah, we're aggressive because that's our job. Otherwise, let's go home. Let's go home and just be all in and home. And that's what we do. But our job right now and our aggressively chasing moments are to maintain what we have

Starting point is 00:31:05 and build an environment that we can create. I love studying leaders who find a way to sustain excellence over an extended period. time. Another reason I was attracted to the thought of this conversation is because I said we have a 20 year we. I say we, but we have a 20 year history here of me experiencing literally your excellence in person, you know, just the vibe, whoever Miranda's here and you're, you're her favorite live act, you know? And so like it's so cool to see like, like, but, but what I mean by that is is it gets back to this excellence thing. When you think about the people that you look at, or the people that you look up to,

Starting point is 00:31:44 the ones that they've, they could be musicians, maybe not, and some of them, I'm sure are, but the ones that have sustained excellence, what have you found that they all seem to have in common? That's a really good question. And these have all been really good questions. I'm sorry, I'm yapping uncontrollably,

Starting point is 00:32:00 but it's exciting to talk about something you care about. Yes. They all have in common a few things. One would be drive, and it doesn't mean a daily, every day, all day drive, because people express that in different ways. I know I do. I get inspired.

Starting point is 00:32:15 Once or twice a day, there's moments where I'm working. But I would say that everyone I've met that has sustained an excellence, been able to build something to work off for years. And I'm texting them to stop all this noise right now. It's for the listeners. We're near the stage in a back room here at Stubbs in Austin, Texas. And I think it looks like the warm-up band's doing a sound check. It's all good. Okay, go ahead.

Starting point is 00:32:41 So, you know, what they have in common is that drive, but what I've always seen is the difference in drives. Like not everyone, like we said, is up all day doing it. That's one thing. One is another aspect is the social aspect of it, where everybody might be a little bit not into talking all the time, not into getting out there and networking and doing it. But they've all got that ability to turn it on and turn it off.

Starting point is 00:33:06 That's something I've noticed. It's very impressive, you know, in a room that can really handle a room. Yeah. I think that exudes some sort of leadership, right? Yeah, yeah. I would say another thing is willingness to fail. I mean, because, you know, if you are not willing to jump off that edge, you probably don't deserve what's on the other side. And I think that that's a huge thing, even down to being on stage making up words, make them up.

Starting point is 00:33:30 Maybe they're going to work. Maybe they won't. But you'll never really get great stuff unless you're willing to take down those limitors, you know? Yeah, what is, speaking of the failure part, I would imagine when writing a new song that you have to go through, like, I just finished writing my first book. And the first draft or the first like five drafts were really bad. Like embarrassing to the point where I'd only want like maybe one or two people to read them. I got to imagine what's your songwriting process like, both the music and the lyrics for like who listens to them?

Starting point is 00:34:06 What's your process? Like I'm just curious of the makings of something new is it's, it's, fascinates me because it's got to be so hard. So I think with songwriting, everyone has a different method and each song has a different method for me. There are times I go to Nashville and I sit in a room with amazing songwriters, Nathan Chapman, Blair Daley, all these Kevin Kadesh and you're sitting in there and you have an hour and a half and you make and record a great song and it's built into your day as work. There's other times where I'm walking down the street, New York and a lyric comes to me and I run to the studio and record it.

Starting point is 00:34:42 You won't like just type it in your phone? I will do that first, but I will get to the studio. We've been afforded an amazing studio spot in Manhattan that I could get to quickly. Oh, okay. But then, like, there's the sound check hang where we'll get on sound check in about 20 minutes and just start making the songs up, making licks up.

Starting point is 00:34:59 There's so many different variations of the songwriting process, but it always comes from, it has to be inspired. If it's going to make it from point A to point B, it's got to inspire me. There can be really technically great songs that I hear at point A that don't move the needle for me. And I will not finish them because it's just work. I really want to put creative art out there that moves people. I'm not trying to put more work out there that just like put you on that, what is it called, where the hamsters go? The hamster wheel?

Starting point is 00:35:30 Yeah. No, what about, do you have? Do you have go-to or is it just the guys in the band? Or are there people to say like, hey, I've been trying something new. I had this idea. And then I assume those guys are willing to say, Mark, you know, I'm not sure about this one, man. Like this, I don't know. We love you and you're great, but this isn't going to work.

Starting point is 00:35:51 So, you know, like Pixar, they have a room where there's 15 or however many writers and they come up with dailies and they show the delies to the one person at the end of the table who's the filter. No, I don't actually know this. Oh, so this is like something that. That is an amazing method that I'm sure I'm slightly off on. I've never been in that room. But it's a commonly talked about method in my world. Someone's sitting at the end of that table.

Starting point is 00:36:15 They watch these dailies and they go, change this, do this, do that. And then boom, it's been filtered. I have a person called Greg Wattonberg, who's an amazing producer, writer, artist. And he basically is that sounding board for me. I can come to him with an idea to go, hey, I was thinking about for Coca-Cola. and this person, we do this song about this and make it sound like that and he'll be like, no, bad, bad, bad, don't do that. And he just has a really good finger on the pulse.

Starting point is 00:36:43 And then he'll produce our records, you know, he produces our records, he helps me produce, helps Jerry produce and write. So I do have that sounding board. And under him, he's got an entire team called Arcade Songs of producers and writers and friends who we can go in there and bounce ideas off of. So this studio space in New York is really like a collaborative. and I'm in there making noise all the time and they're the ones telling me

Starting point is 00:37:08 hey that noise sounds a lot like you and then some of it will be like hey maybe that's better for another artist and that's the kind of environment I've always dreamt of having it's what we had in the basement in the beginning it's only we've had that little collaborative in the basement protected it

Starting point is 00:37:26 and earned it for 20 some years we never changed what we were doing we only built upon what we had to give. And that's our story. So I keep repeating the same things because I really believe that in business or in leadership, there's only a few nuggets of gold. And you just got to learn to not exploit, but build upon those nuggets, right?

Starting point is 00:37:51 People get so confused, they want everything. They want a boat, they want a house, they want a beach, they want too much. We just want what we have. You want to keep playing? That's it. What do you envision? Like what is the future for you guys as you look? Is it like I just simply want to keep it rolling?

Starting point is 00:38:07 No, no, not simply, no. We have big plans. We have our 25th anniversary is in 2021. Wow. We have humongous plans for that. We will work backwards from those major show events that we have planned with. It's going to be very exciting. I think because we want to celebrate the fact that a couple buddies from the neighborhood could play music for 25 years.

Starting point is 00:38:29 So it's going to be a party. Yeah. And everyone's going to be invited, and we're going to throw back the clock. Rockville, Maryland, Ohio State, both. New York City. And Red Rocks and all over the place. That's the other place we're going to, we'll see you as at Red Rocks for sure. You should.

Starting point is 00:38:44 I'll give you the date for next year after the interview. Okay. But so that we work backwards from that celebration, a year and a half, we have so many other things that we want to do leading up to that. So again, maintain what we're doing, build upon it, tell our story. That's again, same thing with Fans for Life's. Tell your story. Don't be afraid to tell your story.

Starting point is 00:39:06 People will relate to you. It will connect with you. Even when you're down. I just watched Pop Star for the thousandth time. And there's a funny thing in there where the managers talking about the wave of success where there's times you're at the top. And he jokingly says, Tony, Tony, Tony, which is the band that he was in. And then you go down. And then you're up and then you're down.

Starting point is 00:39:26 And it's interesting. It's a comedy movie, but he's right in the music thing. you do go up and down, but stay true to yourself and follow what it is you started out doing this for. And that's what we're going to celebrate. And we're going to do that by throwing big, big fun events for people to come and party. That's awesome. One of the things that I've heard successful leaders struggle with is once they've had big accomplishments in their life, that they stop taking as many chances because they've felt that level of success and they don't want to feel failure after the success. So they get a little bit conservative and they,

Starting point is 00:40:03 how do you, how do you balance that? Because you have to take risk. You have to still try stuff out that's not going to work. What's your mind frame around taking those necessary risks to create cool new songs? You know, I'll tell you what, we take risks every single year. When we're booking the next year, we are booking venues that, hey, we may do great in, But maybe a Monday night in Albuquerque isn't going to work, you know, but we have to take those risks. We play five nights a week on tour. So those risks are already on the board a year out. And your job is to sell tickets or build that tour for a year.

Starting point is 00:40:41 So you maintain pressure at all times. And it's, again, to protect, like I use the Under Armour stuff, protect this house. Like, that's what we're doing out here. And with music, you have to take calculated risks to stay. Not relevant in the mainstream, but relevant in the movement of music. Music does a lot of things. One, it's like a universal language. In any decade, it can make a song that lasts forever.

Starting point is 00:41:09 But you also have a responsibility to move the art form forward, I think. And your responsibility is to maintain some sort of attention to what's going on around you. So you have to take risks in that of creating things that maybe make you a little uncomfortable. at first, like songs you've made that at first you were like, I can't sing like that. But then you can do it. You work toward it. You get better and you sing it every night until it's natural to you. So these risks are part of the job. If you're not taking risks in music and touring music, you're probably not in music. Yeah, it's part of the deal. I want to talk about, as we get closer to finishing up here, gratitude. And I've read some things you've said about

Starting point is 00:41:55 John Lampley coming to the band and the impact is I remember I don't remember which show it was but the first time I believe we were with AJ and Laura that night that we were like who is this guy and he was just dancing around like he was having such a good time and I think one of the things we love seeing in live acts we once saw Dave this year and it was the same way they're all smiling and having so much fun and I remember we looked at such a it is obvious that these guys love it yes and as a fan how do you not look because if you guys are just in there mailing and then playing crazy game of poker but you don't really you're not feeling it it's not as like i i you can sense that and i and when john i felt like he may have brought some extra juice to the guys just and how happy he is to be a part of this john lampley you know i say it all the time um is a magic when he arrived in our world i still have a tape of it i was on my phone recording a voice message uh voice memo idea in the dressing room and I'm just sitting there playing a little guitar and this dude's playing trumpet behind me. I hadn't met him really yet, you know. You know Ohio State guy right? Yeah, he's a

Starting point is 00:43:08 Buckeye. He's a dotted the eye in the band. But he's in the room. He's playing his trumpet. And this is years ago, this is like 2011 or 12, 10, 11, 12, around that time period where we were just in rebuild mode where we'd had some crazy times and it was time to, rebuild. And this dude just brought joy into the room. I have it on tape still. I remember the feeling I had like something sounds different about this player. And there indeed was something different about his playing, his joy, his life gratitude, the way he looks at opportunity of meals, being alive. Really? Feeling, he just exercised in the truck and I just had hang with him and he's talking about how good he feels to be alive,

Starting point is 00:43:56 like how good it feels to breathe, and he feels better than yesterday. And look, these things are important, and it's real with him. So what he brought, he injected in this already very grateful environment who had been through so much that we were extra ready for inspiration.

Starting point is 00:44:15 We were extra ready for somebody to come in and pick us up and move us along, and here comes John Lampley. And he sure did that. And he didn't do it with telling us anything other than thank you and I'm happy to be here and then you just watch him go. And if you're not inspired by that guy, I don't know if you're even alive because, man, it's great. And he's never, it's all in what he does, just like Chris on the drums, just like

Starting point is 00:44:41 Benj on the bass, just like everybody, it's not the words coming out of the mouth. Yeah. Like I've given a lot of words today. It's time to go back that up, right? Yeah, right? The rest of the day. These guys just do it. Chris is practicing drums. all day long. Really? And he's been doing it for 30 years, you know? Yeah. All day long, he's doing something.

Starting point is 00:45:01 Running, training, something to get better. Yeah. So if you see that enough, it becomes like the standard. This is what we do. This is where we operate. Like we, I think that's the thing with musicians. I'm not, you know, I have any music. I love music and love live music, especially.

Starting point is 00:45:21 But you think that the guys could just, roll out of bed and show up. And I think the cool part is to hear that you guys are actually, like you love the craft of working on improvement and progress. You don't want to be the same musician today that you were last year

Starting point is 00:45:38 or last time you're at Stubbs. You plan to be, you plan to be better tonight than you were last time. I think that's the mindset that I love and I think we can, is inspiring for people to hear that it's not like, no, I'm just going to show up and do the thing. Like, I'm going to be better than I was last time I was on stage.

Starting point is 00:45:53 Yeah, I'm not trying to pump our tires. I'm not trying to talk us up or anything like we're any different from any other band. But I know any band our age group out there feels the same way that we're very lucky to be doing this. And that's it. And that's like where it ends. You're very lucky to be doing this. You better earn it and keep it. It's probably like being a professional athlete. Once you're in the league, it's about staying in the league. Right? You're thinking about something. somebody else beating you out every day. Every day. All day. Yeah. And the only way we do that is never, ever paying attention to what other people are trying to do and never bending our music toward what people are doing or to please anyone. Right.

Starting point is 00:46:38 Especially, and I know this sounds crazy, and this is probably coming out wrong, but it's like, you can't make music to please your fan base. You cannot do, because what they're telling you back of what they enjoy, it's probably not getting to you in the right sentence. Things they like about you, they like about other bands, they want you to maybe make a song by that other band. And all these great ideas are not really what you should be listening to. What they really like about your group is how it makes them feel,

Starting point is 00:47:09 and you've got to stick to that. Always stick to what you're doing. And even when you're, I mean, always listen to the folks who buy products. Like if you make, I don't know, chocolate and they're like, wow, the chocolate's kind of tangy these days. I don't really love it. you know, you still got to stick to your goal. No, we make tangy chocolate.

Starting point is 00:47:26 Yeah. And that's what we do. And I feel like that's kind of reinforced by John. When he came in, it gave us confidence in what we already knew we were doing, but felt like, yeah, we can build on this. And we can build on this joy he's bringing into our world. And I know whatever he does next is going to, I'll be a fan of. You know what I'm saying? It's kind of like it's a whole world full of mutual respect out here.

Starting point is 00:47:56 Love it. One more thing. So there's a lot of people listening, Mark, who are maybe fresh out of college. And they're not necessarily musicians. Maybe they are. But I think given just how much thought you put into life in general, I'd be curious if if one of them, a younger, really smart, ambitious person says, you know, I want to make a positive contribution to the world. maybe in music, maybe not.

Starting point is 00:48:23 What's like the general direction you would point in? Like what's the general life advice now that you could look back and say, okay, I remember when I was 21, 23 years old. Oh, I wish I would have maybe known this, this, and this. Not in maybe the music business, but just in general in life. Look, I mean, I tell my kid, like the one who's old enough to understand what I'm saying, the same thing as I would tell a graduate of high school or college. It's find something that you truly feel connected to, you know, if it's hockey, if it's science,

Starting point is 00:48:59 if it's this, if it's an area where you feel like a connection to it, there's energy in this world that will tell you when you're in the right spot. Yeah. And then work. A lot of people want to be famous. They want to, you know, okay, cool. How are you going to get that? there. A lot of people want to be physicists. How are you going to get there? There's a path for

Starting point is 00:49:24 everything. You've got to put your head down and grind. But if you're connected to that position, if that world connects to you and you feel it, you're in the right place. So anyone graduating, it's like if you're not feeling like something that you studied political science the entire way, you're down in D.C. and you're an intern and you're feeling like, I don't fit into this. This is not my world. Get the hell out of there. Find what it is you fit into. And if that's being, you know, the third assistant in a lab somewhere, because you feel connected to science, grind that shit out and be yourself and bring joy to the situation.

Starting point is 00:50:03 When I looked at John, I realized I need to bring joy into people's lives. We already knew that's what we were doing, but it wasn't for them. It was for, you know, John's bringing into the world. So it's like in your area of what you're doing in life, bring joy to that place every day. You will advance. People will connect with you. People will want to be with you. They'll want to work with you. But if you're in an uncomfortable space, grinding it out in a manner that does not bring you joy or anyone around you, I don't know if there's any other option there than a dead end. And you're not going to be good at. How are you going to be good at something that you don't really truly have a feel? That's really easy for me to say. I got lucky, right? Yeah. What age? What age was it like, you know what? I want to play guitar and sing. 14, 15. Is that when you learned to play? Yeah, I was working.

Starting point is 00:50:53 Richard taught me how to play when I was 12. He gave me three chords. Learn these chords. When I was 14, 15, I was working at a golf course and the management, like the pros and all the golf people would get together and after hours, and we would play songs and hang out. These dudes taught me how to perform in a basement

Starting point is 00:51:12 in front of strangers and played Grateful Dead songs. I was going to say, did you play your own stuff? before do you play? I tried to play Grateful Dead and tried to play, but I ended up just writing songs about them. And I would sing those songs. And that is where I cut my teeth. I knew I wanted to, I had something to say. I wanted to tell stories about life that I didn't know at first, but eventually about mine when I started living. Yeah. And I wanted to do it on the spot. And I wanted to be challenged. I was obsessed with the fact that people could freestyle lyrics. I was obsessed with the fact that people could just go on stage and just talk for two hours.

Starting point is 00:51:47 I thought that was very interesting if you can string together thoughts in that way. And I always wanted to do that. So I thought music was the best way to do that. I was challenged very young to do that for parties. And I just kept following through on that. We would play in the cafeteria. We'd play in people's backyards. We would birthday parties.

Starting point is 00:52:06 I probably did a birthday party last year. I mean, you know, like, be willing to do it. it everywhere. I tell these musicians all the time, just play anywhere, synagogue, church, wherever, anyone will have you, play some songs. If you can't handle it, you'll know very quickly. Well, in any profession, sports, after you leave sports into the business world, I know me personally, it was all about getting the reps, man. It always kind of gets back to that, that it's a regular process that if you listen to show number five versus now show number whatever, 350-ish, there's a dramatic difference. And the biggest thing was the repetitions

Starting point is 00:52:45 between those four years and 300-plus conversations. Like, you get better. If you think about it, you focus, you care. And it's harder when you care. That is, I think, one of the biggest things that makes the difference. But it's hard. It's hard to keep showing up and doing it every day. I mean, a great example is a friend of mine who was in a very successful band. But it just wasn't his world. It made him a negative person. It, like, changed it. So he found what he believed in and loved, and he's succeeding in that world. Now it's a total 180. And I just think that's important.

Starting point is 00:53:17 My parents always, always said that. Even, maybe it's in my family. It's a method, but my uncle said the same thing when his son wanted to move to New York and work in television, you know, from Florida. He's like, listen, what they love, you love. And I take that to a graduate. Well, you love, go love it. You might be broke for a long time. Mm-hmm.

Starting point is 00:53:40 Right? But you'll always be fulfilled. Mm-hmm. And I know we hear the same cliches, and they're cliches because they're true. Mm-hmm. We have to follow these, like, general T-shirt rules of life. Yeah. It'll fill you up.

Starting point is 00:53:54 Yeah. It's this old kid's book, the bucket, you know, like every one of us carries around an empty, like a bucket, and you can fill someone's bucket up or you can empty it. And when you're filling someone's bucket, you know, you're filling up yourself, you know? And I think that that's what you bring joy to. this job like a graduate would you know i spoke at a graduation i fucking forgot what i was saying the first two minutes i had richard was there my wife was there it was in dc it was my high school it was a big opportunity and i had my speech and i lost my place a minute in and i just shut

Starting point is 00:54:32 it down and started talking to him like i'm talking to you yeah and i said to him like you're not going to be the best right now. You're not even going to make a dollar probably right now. You're going to go spend $400,000 to go to college right now. I told them all these things that are going to happen to them. But if you're in the area you love, you will succeed. You will make it. You have no choice.

Starting point is 00:55:01 It will weed you out. It's like commit to the system and find what you love and chase that shit down. And I just repeated that over. over like I'm doing right now. And I was like, how did I do? She goes, it was okay. But at least you saw it through and didn't go back to the thing. So, you know, it's just like living what you're saying. Yeah. Just be genuine to those very small little nuggets of truth that you have. Yeah. Yeah. All right. All right. One last thing. I'm looking at the stage right now and the entry point to the stage. And I'm fascinated by performers of what is going through your mind. And we're getting ready to do

Starting point is 00:55:38 this like we I can't wait man I'm pumped for the series of play tonight but but what is going through your mind the 90 seconds as you're walking to get ready to go perform on stage man so every single night you got good questions um so I want to be in these moments right we've had love it we have we've had two moments built into our world um one since MSG yeah the first time we did our since that day for years and years and years we would say every night is MSG guys I don't care where we're playing if it's five people if it's 10,000 50,000 every night treat it like this moment so that you never forget this moment so that huddle lasted for years but then a few years ago it changed to you remember when we were in the basement and we looked at each other and we said

Starting point is 00:56:38 we're going to do this one day we're going to do this for real remember how happy you were you're here go be a rock star go have fun have the best time you ever had and that's been the mantra every single night it's like the best fucking time you can have because if you're not go yeah yeah you know are you saying that most of the time but then we trade off like if someone's in there like we have an amazing photographer Greg Berg who comes and hangs with him if he's in we'll let him pop off something like and he'll say something amazing and we'll switch it up but no i mean that's and there's every show like there is never a show where you're like we never don't ever it's all like we are ready to roll every single time because up until the garden we were not huddling before the

Starting point is 00:57:24 shows we were all on the phones da da da da da da da doing this and that and then from that huddle we have never not huddled again that's cool man and that would was 2007. I think it's a good metaphor for life thinking about what is your huddle. I mean, I've grew up in huddles, different type of huddle. So did I though. I played that. Yeah. The huddle of, and part of that, though, is getting to look your buddies in the eye as you're getting ready to go do something that's for football, it was hard and fun and really rewarding. And for you guys very similar, right? You're getting ready to do something that's the time of your life and to never take it for granted and to be excited about that opportunity.

Starting point is 00:58:05 to go do. That's it, man. Love it. And we recognized that we weren't on top of it. We were just showing up. There's years in there, man. We were just showing up. Not because we weren't having fun. We were having too much fun. We were scattered, man. We wanted to be a rock band, you know. That huddle on 2007, I believe January, till now. You'll see it tonight. Love it. Same thing. Love it. Well, thank you so much. Seriously for doing this, man. This is so cool. This is a great experience. I really appreciate it. It's a great experience for me, because I really haven't done but a few. And this is a great environment to talk.

Starting point is 00:58:41 And I think people say a lot more here than other places. I agree. I feel really comfortable. I love like the long form aspect of podcasting. It's which has been so enjoyable for me, as well as, you know, you have to honor of your guest and be prepared. And when you are, I think you can get out some really cool nuggets of wisdom that could help a lot of people.

Starting point is 00:59:03 And that's, for me, the greatest joy of doing this is the, like, one, just the experience of it happening is awesome. But then secondarily, it's the response that someone say, I heard you and Mark talk. And when he said this specific part, and there'll be like 20 different examples from this conversation, when he said this part, it impacted me in this way. And because of that, now this. I mean, that's the juice, man. Like, that's the stuff. You're dead on because I'm listening to whatever. I'll be listening to. I'll take away like four words out of like a three hour thing.

Starting point is 00:59:38 Yep. And just, oh, okay, that makes sense for me. Yeah. And you take it to your own. I'm an avid listener of Howard Stern interviews. I know. And that shit is just. He's the best. The best. But it's the best. It's this long form. Yep. Prepared, ready to go along form. And the guests usually super famous go to places they'd ever been before. Oh, yeah. No, I'm willing to tell you a bunch of stuff that I probably don't, I, you know, I won't talk about again until the next time we talk you don't know me well I really appreciate it it's cool to do it and now you know we get to co-see-you play now we're gonna go take a

Starting point is 01:00:12 tour I want you to meet the band okay and come see the stage and hit the drums or something all right let's go thank you thank you dude good job man thank you this is awesome this is awesome yeah I realize you guys made this trip and I'm so thank you no it was a great excuse for us we wanted to see this city and it's a great city it is cool I get to see you guys play and this is a good place for it perfect set up this would be a good place you gotta drink water here because it's the texas will rock your world man um this tour's been crazy has it yes yeah let me uh pause this wow that one was an incredibly special experience for me to sit down and talk with one of my

Starting point is 01:01:03 musical hero somebody I've been watching perform their art for 20 years it's really amazing and to have my wife Miranda there watched me she said you're literally glowing afterwards and I could not stop smiling it's it's really reminds me of how lucky I am to get to do this on a daily basis and that is because of you and I'm so grateful for that for you continuing to spread the word and and tell us others about the Learning Leaders Show. A few of the things that stuck out to me that what Mark said when we were talking about his TED Talk and the fact that the theme is rooted in unabashedly telling your story, I think that is helpful for all of us to remember that tell your story,

Starting point is 01:01:55 think about your story, be reflective and share it with others. And then the stages of leadership, I was not expecting Mark to be that thoughtful when it comes to leadership. I certainly did when we were going to talk about songwriting and being in a band and the creative process, but not when it comes to leadership. And I found out to be really insightful. And then their pre-show huddle. Now, I actually got to witness this the night of the concert after we recorded this episode. And it was so cool to see how excited and the smiles on the faces of all the guys as

Starting point is 01:02:31 they got ready to take the stage. I just got to say once again, thank you so much for continuing to give me the opportunity to do what I love, chase my passion, my curiosity, my obsessions with great rigor on a daily basis. It's because of you, and for that I will forever be grateful.

Starting point is 01:02:47 Thank you so much. Talk with you next week. Can't wait. I want to let you know that we have opened up tickets for our once a year personal excellence workshop. We did this last year and received incredible reviews, so we wanted to do it again this year, but make it even better. In addition to the topics that I personally teach on,

Starting point is 01:03:07 I have reached out to the subject domain experts within my network to be with us in the room and share their expertise. Things like how to harness your personal and professional flywheel to build an incredible career. Secrets from a professional keynote speaking coach. How to become a learning machine. to utilize the mindset of a professional athlete in the business world and so much more. This workshop is ideal for you if you want to interact with intellectually curious and interesting people.

Starting point is 01:03:42 If you want to accelerate your personal and professional growth, if you have an open mind and are not afraid to be challenged. And if you are currently leading a team or have a desire to at some point in your future. For more details, go to ryanhawk. dot me. This event is intentionally kept small so the experience is intimate, engaging, and interactive. For more details and to get your ticket, go to ryanhawk.me.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 327: Marc Roberge - How To Create Fans For Life (O.A.R.)

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