The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 330: Deconstructing The Art & Science Of Interviewing With Jay Acunzo

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to this special edition of the Learning Leader Show, presented by Brixie and Meyer. I am Ryan Hawk. Thanks so much for being here. Text learners to 4422 in order to join tens of thousands of learning leaders from all over the world. Receive Mindful Monday updates when I'm reading, writing, watching, thinking about. Also have the opportunity to be part of my book launch team. Text learners to 4422. Now on to this special bonus episode. It focuses on deconstructing the art and science of interviewing.

Starting point is 00:00:36 You will hear learning happening in real time. You might remember Jay Akunzo from episode 321. Jay and I go to a meta level to better understand how to improve our skill as a conversationalist, how to ask better questions, and how to increase your capacity to learn through one-on-one conversations. as Jay says interviewing is a skill that enhances your life in a pleasant and unexpected way. I hope by the end of this episode, you will become more skilled at asking questions. You'll become a more interesting person by being more interested, and you'll become a more effective communicator. If you enjoy this one, please give us feedback.

Starting point is 00:01:22 Send me an email, Ryan at learningleader.com. I'd love to hear if you. enjoyed and found this bonus episode useful. All right, without further ado, it's deconstructing the art and science of interviewing with my friend Jay Akunzo. The meta level, which is a phrase I used in our interview together, that we get to talk about is a rare thing.

Starting point is 00:01:49 I don't often get to speak about the craft of making shows, right? Most people, if they interview me, they want to interview me maybe about the concept I explore or the resulting book or the speeches, and that's awesome. I love doing that. but the process of making the work, and you and I talked about this a little bit before the recording, Ryan, like that's where I feel like I experienced the most flow. It's when it's quiet and it's heads down, nitty gritty work and I'm editing a, I don't know, a music track over some voiceover that I just recorded.

Starting point is 00:02:17 Like those minutia are profoundly rewarding for me. And so I'm excited just to get to talk to those things with you and share some of the stuff that goes on shared with your listeners because I do think, whether you make a show or not, we're going to touch on some skills that apply all across the workplace. So let's talk a little bit about what we're doing. We have sent back lists, just for the list for this here, we've sent back lists back and forth on specific topics that we're really curious about, borderline obsessed about. And one of those that was at the top of both of our list was interviewing.

Starting point is 00:02:52 Who are some of the greats? Why are they great? let's dig deep and deconstruct what makes a great interview and analyze some of the actual clips from my show. We'll pull out at least three clips from my show, talk about why I asked, what I asked, what perhaps I got wrong, what I could have done better. And through the course of that conversation, we'll uncover some deep beliefs, why we believe what we do. And I am certain, since I'm talking with you, Jay, that I will learn in real time. And I think I've received a lot of emails from fans and listeners of the show that say,

Starting point is 00:03:33 we love hearing, learning, happening in real time. So I fully expect that to happen while we're talking about this topic, man. It's going to be fun. So for me, I've done, I think, 12. I want to say it's around 12 documentary-style series. So audio or video, whether it's about, whether it's my own show or it's for, a client. I'll often partner with a brand and make a show for them hosting and directing it. And so through like an unusually large number of reps, I feel like I've kind of tripped forward or like the

Starting point is 00:04:05 analogy I always used is I would I would pick a show that inspired me. And you and I've talked a lot about these different interviewers we like from your Bill Simmons's, Terry Grosses. I mentioned Conan O'Brien on your show and how he doesn't get the credit I think he deserves as a veteran interviewer. Anthony Bourdain is my storytelling idol. Like I'll look at their shows and I'll be like, okay, that's the mountain peak in the distance. How do I reach it? I have no idea. But I know there's this jungle between me and that mountain peak.

Starting point is 00:04:31 I'm going to start hacking away. And like the first machete I would start to swing is a side project of my own doing. And it was a podcast. And then a brand would ask me, could I make a show for them? And just bit by bit, I would keep swinging. So what I love is you and I now get to revisit some of the hacking that both of us have done. I mean, you've done, geez, almost 350 episodes, something like that. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:04:52 That's not. That's incredible. And like, so you've put in a lot of reps. And I'm excited to tease out some of the stuff that you've learned that because you're often hosting the show, you don't get to address. And whether you're looking at improving your conversational ability as a listener, your interviews for jobs, whether you're on, you know, regardless of what side of the table you're sitting on, or maybe you yourself host a show or speak on stages or whatever. If you're listening, I think interviewing is just one of those skills that it just enhances your life in a really pleasant, unexpected way. Well, becoming a more effective communicator will help you in every single area of your life, at work, at home, as a spouse, as a parent, and everything that you do. And I think if listening to a few people, two guys here, you and I, go deep and deconstruct what makes great conversation, what makes great interviewing, good question asking. I found, I don't know about you, I've interviewed hundreds of people prior to starting my podcast, Jay, and that was in my role in corporate America when I had a leadership role over the years. And I found some of the most compelling people that I spoke with that I was potentially looking to hire for my team or hire for other people's teams who I was helping were those who came in with the best questions, not always the best answers, but they came in with a genuine curiosity about the role, the company, me, the business as a whole.

Starting point is 00:06:26 And so I think us talking about this could make you better in that area as well. So overall, becoming a better communicator, more specifically asking better questions yourself so that you'll be better in conversation in all areas. Do you remember, and I know you've had a ton of interviews, so it might be tough to pick just one, but who was your toughest interview ever on the Learning Leaders show? Could you pick just one if you had to? Well, so you probably know the feeling of when there's a huge buildup to something, to a moment. And for me, I had the kind of the management slash leadership Bible was the book called Good to Great.

Starting point is 00:07:10 The first real book that I got deep into and read and reread multiple times. And that was by Jim Collins. He's sold millions of those books. Jim does not do many interviews. And so right when I started my show years ago, I started reaching out to his team, and they regularly would set up phone calls, which is rare. Most of the time people just either ignore you, they say yes or they say no. And Jim's people would set up calls, and I would speak not with him, but with members of his team. They would ask me a bunch of questions, and then we'd get off the phone, and then it would be radio silence.

Starting point is 00:07:46 And this happened for years, years. And eventually they set up another call. It was probably the fourth or fifth call. And after we got off the call, I got an email from his team saying, Jim would like to do it. Here is the time and date. And so, and it was real. And so as that time and date approached, a lot of it was because of a couple of things.

Starting point is 00:08:09 One, the fact that this was the first real leadership book that I just devoured. and really put it into play. And two, there was so much buildup, so much work, so much effort, so many conversations speaking with a guy who rarely does interviews. I was extremely nervous. I was scared. I thought I would mess it up. I even, and I hate admitting this, Jay, but I even almost hoped he wouldn't show up,

Starting point is 00:08:40 which is embarrassing. However, I thought, well, if he doesn't show up, then I can't screw it up. Yet when we got there at the beginning of the conversation, you could listen to 16. I'll remember it forever. It starts by him almost making me feel comfortable by asking me a lot of questions about myself. That is not what I expected to happen. And so I would say this was on the recording here. Yeah, go listen at the beginning.

Starting point is 00:09:06 He's asking me about me to start it. And that I've heard he's done this to other people since then. So this is, I think, something that he just, he's a curious guy. And so when he decided to say yes, at that point then, it was time for him to make me feel a little better. He probably thought knew I was nervous. And I think it flowed and it's still one of the most popular episodes of my show since then. So sometimes it's, it's good to have built up. It's good to be nervous.

Starting point is 00:09:34 It's good to be scared. And then lean in and do it. And I felt much more confident after, I think, doing a pretty good job with. that episode. As a tease, they call this an open loop in journalism. Open loops are like you start telling a story or you start saying something and then you don't quite close it. In other words, you don't give the satisfying answer or ending. And it builds intrigue and it prompts people to keep listening. This is an open loop. Later in the episode, when we deconstruct your three or three of your favorite interviews, we're going to talk about what goes on before you hit record. Because I feel

Starting point is 00:10:07 like that does prime you for some of the stuff you talked about with Jim Collins, even though he did it on the microphone. It's like the rapport building is this hidden piece of the craft. And it's so important I've found before you hit record what goes on. Like having a process for that, it could be before you interview somebody for a job, before you self go an interview or before you make a show. It to me is one of the most overlooked pieces of this. So there's your open loop. Later on, we're going to dive into that. I'm excited to talk about that. I almost jumped in now, but I'll hold. I'll wait. No, you can't close the loop up front. You can't close the loop up front. You have to prompt listenership.

Starting point is 00:10:43 I'm totally going to learn in real time. Here we go. So it's funny you said Jim Collins. It does make total sense the way you laid it out there. So my hardest interview ever was a very different flavor. It started as somebody who I had long admired. And really quickly, the problem I faced was something very different than I anticipated when I scheduled it. So the guy I was trying to interview was a guy by the name of Chase Jarvis, who is a veteran

Starting point is 00:11:11 photographer like globe trotting, you know, I think action sports photographer, Nike, Red Bull. He's photographed Serena Williams, like that caliber athlete. And he's now the CEO of a company he founded called Creative Live, which does live streaming education for all sorts of creative crafts. And so I really wanted to reach him early on in my show. And I thought, so I started this podcast Unthinkable, which I still run in 2016, like March of 2016. And I thought he's on the list of like the Pantheon guests for this show because I'm exploring creativity in the workplace. And I thought, all right, I'll reach out now.

Starting point is 00:11:49 Knowing full well, I have no credibility as a podcaster. I have very few, if any, episodes I could cite that show the power of like the show I have and very few downloads. So I can't like quote him or his people something attractive to say yes. And I just shared the pilot. And it was like a highly produced narrative style story. and I think he heard like a clip of it and he was like he said yes early on

Starting point is 00:12:15 and so now I'm freaking out because I was like this is great he liked the style of show I'm making but I was not prepared for him to say yes yet and so I had the same anticipation you had Ryan but then when I hit record that went away and we just hit it off

Starting point is 00:12:30 so much that the interview in my mind was a disaster because of time so like the hardest interview for me is somebody that I know really, really well or hit it off with because I'm a talker, and if they're a talker, we're screwed. I get three questions. Why would that not be good? Why wouldn't it be? Don't you think people could enjoy this genuine friendship happening in real time?

Starting point is 00:12:59 They could feel it? You know, okay, so this is why I wanted to talk to you about these types of things. So maybe, because you're challenging me as much as I'm going to do the same. I haven't listened to this one yet, but I'm going to afterwards. So I had Chase on in March of 2016, and I find him to be such a likable person and smart and great experiences that I could, I'm not surprised at all. One, that he was on that list for you. And two, that you guys immediately hit it off.

Starting point is 00:13:27 Well, I mean, so that's all good stuff. But I think given the style show I produce with Unthinkable, it's a narrative style show. So there's an arc to a story. It's not four or five tidbits, which would be awesome if it's just a. conversation with a time constraint, it's an hour call and a 45 minute final cut or whatever. And the problem was I wanted him to go deeper and do certain parts of his story and his company's story and we never got there. And it's funny, you're forcing me to revisit this stuff. I think if I actually look back, I think the episode came out fine. But I think the onus became on me. And maybe

Starting point is 00:14:02 this is a better way to produce episodes to put in the work to sort of report through my voiceover the what and the how, like the arc of the story that was Chase or is Chase and his company. And he gave really good reflection and a couple anecdotes. And that seemed to be enough, actually. So maybe it was a good interview. So what's the difference between you said a narrative style telling a story versus two people having a conversation where you're probably asking more of the questions and you are following your genuine curiosity. Like, what's the difference? So a story is three parts and an interview may touch on them haphazardly, but the intent of a story is to touch on these three parts. If you distill any story framework to its bare essentials,

Starting point is 00:14:52 which includes the very celebrated Joseph Campbell hero's journey. So it's a status quo, like a statement of fact, here was the preexisting condition, some conflict or tension or drama, a problem. So status quo, conflict, and a resolution to the conflict. So you can kind of see the arc unfolding. It's like it goes up and then down. But like this episode is not a narrative. This episode doesn't have a narrator and this episode is not trying to be a start to finish package. You know, where we go, we go. And it might seem haphazard. It'll flow, hopefully, but it won't be one story. And when you're doing a narrative style show, there are two buckets of questions, which it's almost transactional, Ryan. It's like, yes, I want to have a good conversation,

Starting point is 00:15:35 but I also need to extract the right content for use in the edit. So I want you to tell me about something. There's the first bucket of questions. Tell me about X. Give me the what and the how. And then how did it make you feel or the reflection type of questions. And there's all kinds of techniques and stuff that'll come out when we deconstruct your show in a couple of minutes. But it was very much like I wanted Chase to start with tell me about. And And he's such a thoughtful guy. And I got so excited about how warm he is and the themes he speaks to. And I was sort of fluent in the same kind of stuff in creativity.

Starting point is 00:16:09 So we just got derailed from the tell me about to the how does it make you feel, to the analysis, to the reflection, which is great stuff. Don't get me wrong. But it leaves some of the story details to be wanting. And you can't have that when you create a narrative because you need the status quo, the conflict, and the resolution. Does that make sense? It does. It's, no, it's cool to think about it this way. This is why I like the deconstruction of excellence.

Starting point is 00:16:34 That's what I try to do on my show. But now this is the deconstruction of storytelling and how to craft stories. I don't, I'm not brought up in this world. So some of the episodes have come out almost like this just without getting to a meta level for me. It's just talking and asking what I'm genuinely curious about versus having an action. process to follow, which I'm fascinated by because I think we all could learn, again, how to be a better communicator from understanding this better. Well, I think you seem to do this intrinsically well, and maybe now it's because of reps.

Starting point is 00:17:13 Maybe at first you just had a sense for it. But I like in an interview, whether it's for a narrative style show or an interview show or something in between or, you know, not a show at all, just talking to people. It's as an interviewer, don't think of yourself as an interviewer. Think of yourself as a dance partner. I love that, man. I love it. Yeah. So I, just for context for people listening who don't know my background. So I came up in content marketing in tech. So I worked for companies like Google and HubSpot and a VC firm. And then when I left my very wonderful VC job to do this creative writer speaker thing, I started making shows almost as an accident because I had my own show and I had clients, come to me and they wanted one of their own. And so now instead of do show production essentially as services, I teach it. So I run a company called Marketing Showrunners, which teaches brands how to make original series. And so I've had to find ways to explain this stuff that I built up over

Starting point is 00:18:11 years of trying and failing and trying. And so one of the best things that seems to resonate is how to approach an interview when you're a new host or just conversationalist. So thinking of it as you're not an interviewer, you're a dance partner. And I think that's important to know. know, especially for what you and I do, Ryan, because like the Chase interview is a good example. You may have 17 questions that are really well researched. You're very excited. And the first thing someone says after answering one question takes you down a completely different rabbit hole. And then you have to decide in the moment, is this worth pursuing further? Do I have to tack them back to my line of questions? Do I have to reject the fact that I had a preparation sheet? But

Starting point is 00:18:51 you know what? Actually, this is better. And now I have to come up with impromptu follow up on the fly not written out. And so I liken that to a dance because you're trying to constantly guide and the only thing that matters isn't exactly where you step. It's not like the exact steps there. What matters is that you lead. That's the only thing that matters. And then everything else is kind of little subtle moves, sometimes overt and stronghanded moves to make sure you're just getting people to go where you want them to go in the interview. Well, and we're going to talk about leading here again to open a loop. We're going to talk about leading and if I'm not certain. I fully agree that you always have to be in the lead, but I could be wrong. So I'm

Starting point is 00:19:32 curious to learn more about that. But your quote from that article that I've read that has helped me as an interviewer, which is titled, you're on an interviewer, you're a dance partner, is you say it's not a constant march forward. Instead, think of it like a dance, some steps back, steps forward, steps to the side, all packaged together in one coherent experience with lots of zigzagging and subtle steps inside those boundaries. I love that use of an analogy when thinking about what we're trying to do here to put together compelling, useful, helpful stories, audio, a podcast that will make somebody's life better. So I don't know, do you want to go into the clips now? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So this first clip is from your interview with JJ Redick, NBA veteran,

Starting point is 00:20:17 sharpshooter, former duke. Now I think he's kind of coming to his own, not only as a basketball player, but he hosts a podcast. In listening to the interview, I realized he's thinking about charity, thinking about media companies. He's, you know, he is a whole person in a world where I think we are now accepting that athletes are whole people. They're not just playing a sport. And then you never hear from them. How do you handle the fact that you want to raise your kids so that they develop grit, even though you can easily provide everything and more that they will ever need? That's a great question. That is a great question. actually, you know, Stan Van Gundy and I have talked about this quite a bit.

Starting point is 00:21:00 And, you know, I think as a parent, especially sort of a parent of a parent that's first generation wealth and varying degrees of wealth, of course, but just first generation, you know, there's no like blueprint for you. There's no blueprint. I can't, I can't, you know, raise my kids the same way. my parents raised me because it's a completely different environment. The accountability part of it, I think, is the biggest thing that Chelsea and I talk about. You know, we want our kids to, really, we want two things overall.

Starting point is 00:21:39 We want our kids to feel like they're loved and we want our kids to love other people. Before we get into the interview and this clip here, how did this one come together? Because, wow, it's, this is an NBA player, right? So how did you reach JJ? How did you get him on your show? So it's weird kind of the Duke contingent that I've had, I guess, following the show. It started with Marquette's coach, who's Steve Wojahowski, who played at Duke. He's friends with JJ.

Starting point is 00:22:06 I also had Jay Billis who played at Duke, who now works for ESPN. So JJ was starting his own podcast, and he was talking to Wojo about that. And Wojo sent him my show and said, this is one that I like. maybe you could model yours after this kind of style. The host seems to just kind of follow the people that he's curious about. And that was it. And so that's, you know, that's one of those moments when JJ told me that because I sent him a, at that point he was still on social media, I sent him a DM because I did not know his

Starting point is 00:22:41 email address. And he responded immediately and said, yeah, Wojo turned me on to your show. I've used it as a model for mine. That was the very first response that he said. Wow. Which you can imagine blew my mind. And so that's how it came about where I said, well, that's awesome. I'm happy to help you in any way that I can.

Starting point is 00:23:03 Also, would you like to record together? And he said, of course. So that's how this one came about. It's pretty cool. How do you prep to interview somebody who is interviewed all the time and is in the public eye? I actually feel like we talked about tough interviews at the top. I feel like, and I'd be curious for your take here, the people who are found on lots of shows and in the media in general, they're almost harder

Starting point is 00:23:25 interviews because while they have more compelling stories, like clearly people want to talk to them, they have their sound bites, which is great. You don't have to dig through a lot of mundane stuff to get to the goods. They're harder to interview because, A, people have heard them before. So you can't just have them say the usual. And then B, they are either coached, like quite literally somebody might be in their ear, which is like my case, I do a lot of, business stories. So my case is a lot of executives have people around them who are very cautious about what they can and can't say. So there's literally somebody in their ear sometime actually on the recording, which I've had. Or if it's not just they're coached, they're just rehearsed. So they've done it a

Starting point is 00:24:06 lot. So how do you get somebody like JJ? How do you prep for that interview and how do you ask him questions where he does go like you did in this clip? Oh my gosh, that's a great question. Yeah. So I think a lot of it is done ahead of time with the person. building real rapport. So we talked a little bit about my athletic background and in the fact that, okay, we're not equals. I didn't play in the NBA, but I, you know, I played college, starting quarterback in college and played a bit professionally after college. So we're closer to equals than most people who ask him questions on a daily basis. So that's one. Two, my show helped him. So in this particular case, I had some credibility from the fact that something I had done

Starting point is 00:24:50 unknowingly helped him. And then before we had talked before we recorded and we built, I tried to just build a basic rapport slash friendship. We talked about Philadelphia. I had traveled to Philly quite a bit for work, talked about where he was living. I mentioned some places that I thought would be a good spot because of where he could go and eat. He's a foodie.

Starting point is 00:25:11 He loves trying new restaurants. He's talked about on past podcasts and things of having an Evernote file of all these places to eat. So I did my homework, my research of things that maybe people don't talk to him about a lot, talked about it before we even recorded so that we became more on, I'd say, a friend level, at least a colleague's level, whereas I'm not, and think about the situation he's in most of the time. He is a thoughtful, smart, good dude, but the people are so deferential to him who interview him, they put themselves below him.

Starting point is 00:25:48 They do it. He doesn't put them below him. The interviewers do. In my case, we started at the same level. And so when you start at the same level, he wants me to get good stuff. He really wants it to be a good episode for me. He cared about this being a good one. He didn't just mail it in to say, oh, I got to do this media. He wanted it to be good. So I think you can do work with some of these more famous people, if hopefully ahead of time so that they want it to. to be good. And when they want it to be good, it'll force them to be more introspective, more thoughtful. And then when you ask a question about how to raise kids with first generation wealth, you could hear him in his voice thinking outlined. And I did this one on video so I could see it in his eyes, the way he looked up. He put his hand on top of his head. He was wearing a hat, I remember, and he was truly thinking. And when he said, that's a great question. I think

Starting point is 00:26:44 this is important for all interviews to think about, interviewers to think about. When somebody says, oh, that's a great question, don't start patting yourself on the back. It doesn't necessarily mean it's a great question. Sometimes it means I need some time to think. I'm not sure what the answer is. So let me just give you, I guess, an empty platitude sometimes to say, oh, God, what am I going to say here? I'm not sure. I didn't know we were going to go here yet. Let me think for a minute. And then he starts talking about one of his mentors, Stan Van Gundy, and did him and Stan, did they even, you know, why did he name Stan? What was that all about? And then he got into what him and Chelsea talked about. And eventually he got to the really good stuff that Chelsea and I say,

Starting point is 00:27:28 we really just want two things for our kids. We want them to feel loved and we want them to love other people. And that, I think, I don't, I'll pause here for a second because you may have a few questions based on that. But that's kind of my thought process as I got into this question with him. Are there specific things in addition to putting in the reps that can help break people from a potential canned response? So we've talked a lot about building rapport up front. Are there specific techniques you've tried or questions you can ask? I'm happy to share some of my own, but I'm curious if you have any yourself. I mean, I'm a big on asking for examples. I don't think that's rocket science. I think a lot of people know that. Can you share an example? I do think

Starting point is 00:28:09 trying to understand how they felt in a specific moment. And I like asking how they felt right before the moment and then after. So asking the feeling question, asking for a specific example. I think those are useful things to get them more specific. Another, I guess, question that longtime listeners are very used to hear me saying, are say, can you share your process for that? and sometimes you'll hear someone who has no process. They're literally making it up on the fly, and I think that's evident.

Starting point is 00:28:44 And then from there, you've got to figure out where you're going to go or if you're going to drill down on one specific area or story. But some people do have, like Ryan Caldback has these incredible frameworks for how he operates in his business, the CEO of a small business entrepreneur. And I found that fascinating to hear all of his frameworks and processes for going. So I tried to get into the example. How do you feel? What's your process?

Starting point is 00:29:07 type questions and then be a deep, thoughtful listener and hopefully find a nugget or a story or something that they said during that potential generality to go deeper. So while you were talking, it made me think like asking those questions can be a little nerve-wracking because it's a very short question, a very simple question. The tendency, which I also exhibit constantly and I'm trying to work on, is to over-explain why you're asking the question. And I think interviewers do that all the time. But just saying, can you give me an example? Or just moving on to the next question. One of the things that plagues a lot of interviewers is they will try to fill time between your ending and their next question.

Starting point is 00:29:52 When there's really only a couple options there, instead of saying, oh, awesome, or my tick used to be, got it, got it, constantly. After every question I asked. Or guest worshiping. I think when I'm coaching other interviewers, and I did this early on. I still do it, where they get into this mode. I actually did it to you at the beginning of this one, so I still do it on a regular basis. They get into this mode where the guests will respond and they'll say what isn't a great answer perhaps or a useful answer. And let's say, oh, man, that is so awesome.

Starting point is 00:30:24 And then they're trying to figure out what to say next when it's just like, just keep going. Right. Don't just stop to worship the guests. And every time you worship the guest, it starts. moving the levels. Remember I mentioned, JJ and I started at the exact same level. When he's used on a daily basis to being put on these pedestals by the people who ask him questions, don't do that. Howard Stern is great because they're always on the same level. Terry Gross does that. Anthony Bourdain did that. They're great because they keep on the same level with their interview subject.

Starting point is 00:30:57 And when someone finishes, there's only a couple ways to go about it. You can say if you're truly hosting and it's not like a co-hosted thing, it's a guest situation or an interview subject situation, you can try to distill. That's a service of the listener. And maybe it allows the person to see, oh, wow, that's the insight you pulled from that. Let me correct you or add to it. So you can distill. You can disagree because that creates an amazing amount of content. That's really great and listenable. But also, it does help the person clarify. It's like, hey, help me understand. I think I disagree or outright disagree. So distill, disagree. I think the other option is just ask the question. Just ask the question. Just ask the. the next question, which sounds so weird. Because when you talk to someone over coffee, it is a little

Starting point is 00:31:39 staccato. It's a little truncated. It's like, you just finished a thought and you stopped. You didn't ask me a question back. And so the cadence of a conversation between two people is, now it's my turn to reflect something back and maybe lead to a question. But on an interview, just ask the next question. Like, I want people listening to go and watch or listen to other interviewers, notice how, without you noticing this, they jump right to the next question a lot more than you think, and you don't pick up on it as awkward at all, because they've realized, I have nothing to distill. I don't disagree. Next question. Yeah. And sometimes there are one word questions that can be powerful. Really? You know, you can hear you raise your voice. Why?

Starting point is 00:32:18 So like I've, when I re-listen to some of my episodes, I listen to all of them multiple times. I'm trying to just like watching game tape of when I played sports, that I find the moments when I'm most, I guess, proud or happy of my interviews are those. When you could tell the natural responses, really? Or why? And it forces them to go another level deeper. And that can be as powerful as anything when the follow-up is not some crazy contrived. Let me show you how smart I am.

Starting point is 00:32:49 It's just a genuine, wow, really? That type of response can be powerful. Totally. Two final things I'd add. One is, and there you go. I just said totally, right? I know we're having more of a conversation, but if you were on my show as a guest,

Starting point is 00:33:01 I shouldn't have said that. Anyways, the... We could be ourselves up like the whole time. So anyway, let's go. We're chasing our own... You notice that? We're already doing it. It's like we're talking about the craft

Starting point is 00:33:10 while we're executing the craft, so it's going to get a little confusing. Yeah. So there's two questions that I pulled from NPR and like kind of traditional radio or public media podcasts that I love. I've built on one of them. So I wanted to share those.

Starting point is 00:33:23 So one is during the interview, it's almost like the best absolute best question you can ask, including when you're not creating content, which is just how did that make you feel? That's it. Just how do that make you feel back away? Because it does force that deeper reflection and you get to a place that you wouldn't expect. And actually, the goal there isn't to get just the answer to that question. It's to enable them to get to the mental and emotional place where your follow-ups stay in that plane. They stay in that emotional lane a little bit more. They get out of that can response mode. But speaking of can responses, when NPR

Starting point is 00:33:57 producers, let's say, go in the field and they're micing up a subject, they test the levels of their volume on the mic by saying, just tell me what you had for breakfast. And I always thought that was kind of a missed opportunity because, yes, it's technically effective. It's like literally the technical side of how do you sound and we're listening back to ensure it sounds okay. But I actually found that as a podcaster, as a video documentary host, I need to engineer the guest. I need to engineer the human because I need that person to feel not like a corporate drone, to feel like we're hanging out and to feel excited about the interview. Like if I'm not having fun, you're not going to have fun. If I'm really reserved and tight, you're going to reflect that back. So what I ask now,

Starting point is 00:34:44 instead of what did you have for breakfast? I say to people, hey, I'm just going to check your levels, Ryan, do you have any pets at home? Or see, see your reaction there was to smile and laugh because if you have pets, you're like, yeah, freaking spot. Let me tell you about spot. And if you don't, you usually make a joke about why you don't or I get a lot of like, well, I got three kids. That's the same.

Starting point is 00:35:06 And, you know, it's a rapport building moment. I'm not engineering the tech in reality. I'm engineering the guest. And if I don't ask about the pets, by the way, the next one I've tried, it seems to be working a little bit better even, is. If you had, like, what would be your last meal on earth? Yeah. Because people really break out of their corporate drone mode to answer that question.

Starting point is 00:35:27 And I'm asking you a question, pets or food, about the person, right? I'm getting you to act like a person. And now we can have a great conversation. And typically the follow-up isn't, okay, so now state your name, Ryan, and, you know, how did you get started here? Now the follow-up has to be on the same human plane. So I might say, great, we're getting started here now. Thanks for answering that question.

Starting point is 00:35:45 I'll crop it out later, Ryan. Why is the work you do meaningful to you? Yeah. You know, and it just sets the tone. That rapport building, too, you humanize the person. And so, again, it puts you on, I think, similar levels talking about the pet, because they're not expecting that. And I also, I think I found guests, we're talking about getting to the pre-interview portion.

Starting point is 00:36:07 When I asked them, if you have any questions, they seem to be curious about who may be listening. And so I've gotten pretty good at quickly saying who those people are. I said it to you while we're recording and before. And sometimes I'll say things like, look, I want this to feel like two people going out for lunch for the first time becoming friends. I'm going to call you, Jay. Feel free to call me Ryan. We'll have a good back and forth. I'll ask the majority of the questions, which is a little bit different than the lunch.

Starting point is 00:36:39 But if you have any questions, don't hesitate to stop and ask just like you would if we were going out to lunch. Oh, and by the way, I am not a journalist. I am a conversationalist. So if you happen to say something that is stupid or you regret or you just don't like it, just stop and tell me and we'll get rid of it. I will cut it out. It is not a gotcha show. I'm not here trying to do anything like that.

Starting point is 00:37:07 And they go, oh, okay, cool. All right. Well, I hope I don't do that. I go, well, if you do, it's no big deal. And I can tell you, Jay, in the last two years, I don't think I've edited out a single answer. I don't think anyone's ever had to take me up on that offer. But what it does is it puts him in the place of saying, oh, this is a safe space. He is not out to get me like some journalist, especially if you're talking to people who are interviewed a lot. He's not out to get me. He's not

Starting point is 00:37:32 looking for a quote. He wants to have a conversation. And so I've used that I'm not a journalist. I'm a conversationalist to pretty much every person I've talked to. And I mean it. It's all genuine. It's all real. And if they happen to say something that they were regret or they were stupid or could hurt their business or their family or their life, I will absolutely take it out. And I'm thinking of one right now. A very prominent person got very comfortable and started talking about how much weed he smokes. And I remember he goes, hey, you remember you told me that you'd take something out?

Starting point is 00:38:06 I'd just rather my kids and my business not here that I smoke weed. Can you take that out? Absolutely. We took it out. And so I think that is a, if you're looking at, if you're looking at, you're looking at, you're for your guests to get comfortable, loosen up, not have any fear of, I have to say the perfect thing, every single response, then tell them that and then actually do it.

Starting point is 00:38:27 And I think it'll make your show better. Now in my head, my options are distill. Nope. Then I'm going to, okay, now hold on, I'm going to disagree. Nope. Okay, so now my last option is I'm going to ask you the next question. Let's go to the next clip. That's not a question, but that's what I'm going to say.

Starting point is 00:38:43 Let's go to the next clip. Okay. So this clip is Adam Savage. most people probably know him as the co-host of, was it Discovery Channel's MythBusters? I believe so, but we may talk about that, the fact that I'd actually never seen that TV show. I remember hearing the 49ers, Steve Young, talk about hitting Jerry Rice, getting to Jerry Rice and realizing, oh, I'm going to have to throw the ball where I know Jerry can get even if I can't see him. Yeah. And that, I love, I love, I love that leap of faith.

Starting point is 00:39:21 Yeah. What's your, so I think we definitely establish the importance of it. Now, what about the process of putting it together, whether it's writing or speaking or both? I think writing is really important. I write everything down. Sometimes many of my notes I don't go back to, but the physical process of writing it down is a really important one. I think having people on your team whose gut check matters to you is supervised. I was having dinner a couple years ago with the head of a big network.

Starting point is 00:39:53 And I was asking him about how do you run a big network? It totally baffles me. And he said, well, it's all about my team. And we delved a little further. And he pointed out that his head of PR, he actually checks programming decisions with them. Because they have a really terrific gut check. I have several, I have, I mean, almost everybody on my team has, a take that that matters to me.

Starting point is 00:40:20 I have a question about the execution of that little moment, but before we get there, how did this one come together, especially since you said you never saw that show? Which I know to some people, I got a lot of email from huge Mythbusters fans. Fortunately, they were happy with the episode. Adam hired a PR team that I have a very good, probably the best working relationship with of all. So I probably work with a combination of, and you do too, I'm guessing, like eight to ten different PR firms that mostly are hired when someone has a book launch. Adams happens to be Ryan Holiday's company, Brass Check, and the leader of that particular part is Brent Underwood.

Starting point is 00:41:05 Brent Underwood has never sent me a bad guest. And so he said, hey, man, got got this book. Every Tool is a Hammer by Adam Savage. really interesting guy. Here's a couple links to look at some of his stuff. He was on this TV show, that type of thing. So I said, Brent, you've never given me a bad guest. And Brent's the only PR person who's never forwarded me a bad guest. So I trust him.

Starting point is 00:41:33 And I said, I'll certainly do it because he's very careful about who he recommends to come on the show. Like he has a good feel for it. He's very good at his job. So when he told me, you should do it. And then he sent me the book the same day. I started reading the book and said, yeah, absolutely, I'm in. And I didn't even realize that Adam was, Adam Savage was like, had this TV show until I started getting into studying more about them. I love that you did this or this came together through a PR firm because I get pitched constantly.

Starting point is 00:42:06 And I know a lot of podcasters who get pitched constantly with the batch and blast approach. It's just probably like five to seven per day. It's frustrating as hell because not only is it. annoying just to get that many emails, but it's also such a missed opportunity for the individual and for their representation because I genuinely want interesting stories. The problem is I have a very specific bent to unthinkable, which is like we tell stories that from the outside looking in, look crazy, look unconventional, they rethink the best practices, they question them, that's what I wrote the book about, that's what the show is about. All you have to do is listen

Starting point is 00:42:42 to one episode, maybe hear the opening sting, or just read a little bit about the show, and you can tweak your pitch a little bit because what I'm looking for is not why this person is awesome, but why they're a fit for the show, which is a proxy for why my listeners are better served hearing their story. Because that's what I care about. I don't care about your client if you're pitching me. I care about my listeners. I care about serving them better and better all the time. And so rather than say, here is an executive, they are awesome, they succeeded, here's what they're doing now. Also, it's awesome. You should have them on the show. And it's like, that does not answer the simplest of questions on my mind, which is like, why my show? Why should I have them? Yes, I get

Starting point is 00:43:21 they're awesome. But that's like, that should be table stakes. So why are they on the show? So when you said that, I, I melted. I'm like, I love hearing that it can actually look like a partnership instead of like this annoying little like inbox ding all the time. Well, it also is a good rumor. I mean, I grew up working in sales, telephonic sales, where we used both email and the phone. Have it have a better feel for sending cold outreach. The new thing. The new thing, that some of the not as good PR firms, Brent's the best I work with, but the new thing that they're doing that is not effective

Starting point is 00:43:55 is they'll copy and paste a title of a recent episode of mine. Hey, you know, blank, they put Ryan. I just heard and then they copy and paste the entire thing, like episode number, blah, blah, and then the whole subtitle, and then the period. By the way, you know, also so-and-so would be perfect. So it's worse because it's faked. It's not real.

Starting point is 00:44:19 When you're sending cold outreach, there's obviously art and science to this. But think about the person, think about their audience, mention something very specific about the person you're reaching out to that shows that you've done your work. And if you can find some sort of uncommon common commonality, utilize that and then put that in there as well. And then if you need to pitch your guest, pitch your, pitch your guests. You're still going to, it's still a losing battle because most of us are going to say no. But at least your odds increase if you're able to find something specific about the person, their show, their listeners, as well as some sort of uncommon common commonality between the person that they're pitching as well and you, the host. It is playing not even the long game, just like the medium term game, to say something unique and customized to that person.

Starting point is 00:45:10 because like you said, the odds of you saying yes, go up, which is great. You don't have to email so many people to get a little yield. You email fewer people to get a slightly larger yield. But even still, you can broker a relationship like you have with that firm because, yeah, I may not want to talk to this specific guest. But wow, thank you so much for seemingly caring about what I'm doing. I'm pouring my heart and soul into this show. I'm not building a marketing channel for your guest. I get that's part of the game. But I also want to understand that that you did a little bit more investigation. I am now picturing what a real partnership could look like.

Starting point is 00:45:45 So, hey, Bill, it's not a fit for this one guest, but I'd love to work with you more. I've never heard from anybody like you. And I'd love to help just find good stories from your client tell. Like, that's a partnership. Let's stand shoulder to shoulder and solve a problem together, not let's basically batch and blast against the world. The spray and prey approach,

Starting point is 00:46:07 it probably works on some shows. And it probably worked a little bit better on mine early, early on. And I don't hate, I feel like elitist currently saying this. But I think it's more along the lines of I'm just much more careful about my audience. And I know every single episode that comes out, there is someone who's going to be listening for the first time. And I am cognizant of that fact. And I want that person to love it and I want them to tell their friends. and if you just accept a guest because they have a good bio, it's not going to work.

Starting point is 00:46:44 I have to have a genuine curiosity about the person. And if it's pitched by a PR person, then they have to do a good job of building that intrigue as to why do I want to dig deeper on someone like Adam Savage? And in this case, Brent did that remarkably well. And so I think there is work that we all can do to be better at this. I think you sounded just the opposite of elitist, honestly. I think you sounded like a servant. leader to your listeners. I feel like that's, you are the keeper of the value you're trying to provide to

Starting point is 00:47:13 them. And also, in perhaps maybe a little bit of a surprising way, the smaller your show, the smaller your vehicle, blog, newsletter, podcast, video series, the more you should care, the finagier you should be about who appears on it as a guest because you only have a thousand listeners. And so your job shouldn't be, how do I double the listenership? Your job should be, how do I serve these 1,000 people deeper and deeper, better and better? Because, oh, by the way, they're going to go out and get me more listeners as a byproduct of doing that. So you should be even more finicky. But when it comes to the actual execution of that interview with Adam Savage, one thing you did

Starting point is 00:47:48 and the reason I want to highlight it was you kind of nudged him again back to the dancing analogy in a different direction. You said to him, okay, I think I understand what you're saying. And then you tacked back to what's the process for that? How do you execute it? I'm thinking about my listener. Again, there's you as the keeper of the value and the steward of this community. talk to me about that. And it was a gentle way of interrupting, but ultimately it was an

Starting point is 00:48:13 interruption because I know he could have gone on in theory a lot longer. So when do you decide it's the right time to jump in? Well, I am truly fascinated and curious about the process. I've asked you that multiple times when we spoke, what's your process for preparing for a speech? What are you feeling? What are you thinking as you're getting ready to step on stage? That's a selfish question because I want to know that. But I've also learned that, my listeners and audience, they seem to like that the best when they could hear me asking and following my genuine curiosity. So understanding somebody's process is something I'm fascinated in.

Starting point is 00:48:53 And anyone who's sustained any level of excellence, I want to know their process. So that's a natural follow-up question where I'm going to ask that. And it almost always creates a, I guess I would say almost, almost easy. follow up because they're going to say something within that process. It's usually not a short answer, but they're going to say something in there that I'm going to have a jumping off point. I'm going to be able to dig a little bit deeper. I'm going to be able to drill down on what a particular part of their process of what's their mind, what's their self talk 10 seconds before stage? I did this with my own dad on my show. I said, what are you thinking about? And he goes, look, my dad's the most humble guy in the world. Literally as selfless as it gets, he's the best. My number one mentor. And he said, There's one brief moment, and I didn't know this before we record it.

Starting point is 00:49:41 So that's why you should record with people you love. But he goes, there's one brief moment before I go on stage. So I have a couple thoughts. One is I am here to serve these people as best I can. But two, I got to throw aside this humble approach for a second. And this is what I'm thinking. I'm the baddest dude in this room. It was so cool.

Starting point is 00:50:04 It was so cool to hear my dad say that. And now I do it. And it helps me a lot. And I knew it would help other people when you get scared or imposter syndrome or you're nervous. But when you ask a process question, what are you thinking a few seconds before you go on stage? And he says, listen, man, I'm the baddest dude in this room. I'm going to get up on stage and absolutely crush it because you need, you know how it is. Like you get scared sometimes.

Starting point is 00:50:29 You need it. And I say that now every speech moving forward, even podcast interviews moving forward. Look, I am the baddest dude in this. this room. I'm going to make it happen. I'm going to bring it for these people that they're going to leave here with their hair on fire ready to roll, man. It's going to be because of the energy that I bring to it. Just me saying this answer is creating more energy, which I know you hear. And so I think that is why I like to ask process questions and then usually ask, well, what are you thinking? How do you feel in those particular moments when they're talking about their process?

Starting point is 00:51:03 One of the problems with that is you tend to get some generalities, even talking about. about the process because the process is still, it's an example, but it's not, here's exactly what happened. You know, it was March 2015 and this happened. So it's still kind of in the realm of theory. And I've always found, especially the more veteran interviewers or interview subjects, rather, the more commonly they are on a microphone or on camera, the harder it is to get them into specifics because, you know, I'll give you an example. I interview a lot of entrepreneurs. And whether it's because they've been coached, because they've done a lot of interviews, or I think it's because they don't think the specifics are interesting because they're not the founder of

Starting point is 00:51:40 Salesforce yet. They're the founder of something you've never heard of. They'll say, tell me about how you acquired your first few customers. And they'll say, well, I think in general when you're early as a startup, and I already know I've lost them because they're going, they're going 30,000 feet into the air. In general. In general. And it's not always so obvious, but that's a typical response. So my follow up to tell me about is always, can you give me an example, you've mentioned several times already. It's just such a great, great question to ask. But even still, people can wiggle out of that, right? Yeah, I think one of the areas that I started. So I like, when I'm, especially if they're promoting a book, I will go straight to the acknowledgements.

Starting point is 00:52:21 Maybe this is something for other people could learn from. And this is how you can get specific. Because I want to, I recently wrote my acknowledgments for my upcoming book. And it was, it was hard. Like, I didn't want to forget anybody. I wanted to make sure I thank the proper people. change the order. I mean, it was work. So I now look at acknowledgments when I, when someone's promoting a book. And on page 291 in Adam's book, the first part of the acknowledgments, he wrote Jamie Heineman taught me what a boss could be. And then he goes on to the next person. And I thought, wait a second, what is that all about? So this is how you can get them out of generalities when you're like, wait a second. You said Jamie taught you what a boss could be. What does that mean? Like,

Starting point is 00:53:03 what do you mean by that? And I, and I brought that up at a different clip of, of, this conversation with Adam Savage. And when we started talking about Jamie, who I did not know much about, but he worked with on a TV show that I had not watched prior to the preparation for the episode. You're just asking for a lot more emails about like how you could not watch this show. Well, it was, it was interesting that the tone of his voice changed. It was like he was talking about someone he loved. and that got way outside of any generality about why was Jamie such a great boss?

Starting point is 00:53:39 What can a boss be? A lot of people listen to my shows, as you know, Jay, are this avatar of the mid-level manager who's running a team. And if this creative maker who makes TV shows and writes books and is an artist, he's talking about, though, this is management, this is leadership. That's what my show is about. So turning all the way back to page 291, the acknowledgement. going a little bit differently in your preparation process can create a question that can start you on a trajectory that's completely maybe different than you would have expected from this guy who I think a lot of people, if they've taken this, they would have just talked about Mythbusters or talked about making a TV show when I'm talking about, wait, wait, wait, you have one small sentence that this person taught you what a boss could be. I want to know about that. And then we drill down in that area. And then it became this source of love, which I think made the conversation better.

Starting point is 00:54:32 It's funny because you're making me think about all these techniques I've named and thought through and I'm trying to proactively deploy or write about on marketing showrunners. And I think it's because even though these techniques sound transactional and to some degree they are, I think it's because I am so good or at least good is the wrong word. I'm so comfortable with. Like my natural state is to just chat with you. And I think that that can leave some material unexplored. So I had to get good proactively at having mental heuristics. So one of those heuristics, you just concluded for me. And I just want to tease out the framework of it for listeners.

Starting point is 00:55:08 I started by saying, tell me about, that's a question I ask. Then I mentioned how they go 30,000 feet. So ask them for an example. And then you chimed in with, well, I pulled something out. If they get general on the example question, I'll then go to something that I found. And I'll say, what about this? Here's the quote from the acknowledgments. Talk about Jamie.

Starting point is 00:55:26 Talk about leadership that you've experienced. talk about, you know, that story he mentioned about talking to a network executive. That was such good material. And that's because you went from, tell me about, nope, didn't work. Example, it kind of worked. What about this specific thing? Reflect on that. And I call that third question in that order.

Starting point is 00:55:44 Again, it sounds transactional. Putting them in a box. So back to my entrepreneur question. Tell me about how you grew to your first hundred customers. Well, in general, when you're early, all right, give me an example. And they still wiggle out of it. Like, well, I think, you know, Instagram was really important for us. Instagram's really having a moment, Jay.

Starting point is 00:56:02 And I think when you're early, oh, come on. All right, here's my third arrow in the quiver. I'm going to put you in a box. All right, Ryan, I understand that when you were early, just help me understand this. When you were early, you knew this was the type of customer you wanted. There's one wall of the box. You thought Instagram was a good channel to acquire those customers and engage with them as people. There's the second wall at the box.

Starting point is 00:56:23 And I start giving you details. You had no budget. Nobody had invested yet. just you and a co-founder in an office somewhere. Boom, boom, boom, there's the box. Then I leave one side open. And I say, so you open an Instagram account, then what'd you do there? And the only way you can answer that question is to go out of the box the way I want you to go out of the box. Like, that's what I'm talking about when I talk about leading an interview. Why is that transactional? I don't, I don't think that's transactional. I think that's preparation,

Starting point is 00:56:50 that's thoughtfulness. That's real relationship building. I mean, why do you say, well, I don't, I don't, I think transactional, when I hear that, I think it's a bad word. Why do you say that? I'm the same way as you. I think it's kind of like skeevy a little bit to say it that way. I'm glad to hear you say it's not. I think it's, in my mind, it's transactional because I'm doing something that I know and you don't, and it's towards a definite end. Okay. So maybe transactional is the wrong word, but I do think it's something where I'm trying to engineer a predictable outcome. But if you look at the greatest stories, that's what they're doing. I was going to say, do you think Bourdain, Howard Stern, Terry Gross, the greats, are they,

Starting point is 00:57:31 do they do this? So to some degree, I've kind of ruined, they say don't meet your heroes. I think it's also maybe don't do what your heroes do. You start to see some of the ridiculousness of how the sausage is made. And so for me, looking like Bordane, again, is my storytelling idol. I talked about him the first time you and I spoke on your show. and I sat with a notebook and deconstructed his CNN show, literally trying to go block for block of what is the typical Bourdain show,

Starting point is 00:58:02 how do I get as close as possible across episodes to what I think is their formula, even though they don't have an exact formula. Then let me graph that on to who I am and build something new out of the kind of remixed version or Mishmash version. And the more I started to do that, the more I started to look at the underpinnings, the frameworks of great original series, web series, TV podcast doesn't matter, the more I started to appreciate their magic in a different way. Like Terry Gross, I think what people experience is truly magical. It's an hour, maybe 45 minutes

Starting point is 00:58:36 of a show of her asking brilliant questions, so well researched, so artfully articulated, she's economical with her words in a way that I'm so hopelessly not. And like, I dug into that. And I learned that. And I learned that. that she has like mostly two hours with guests and they whittle it down. So like that ruins that kind of magic. But the real magic, I'm like, oh, so she's not great at asking these pinpointed questions. She's great at creating an environment where you're honest. And part of that is what she says before the episode starts.

Starting point is 00:59:10 And part of that is her research and part of that is her follow-up questions. So now I have a new appreciation, but it does change like where my appreciation goes, if that makes sense. Yeah, I think we've talked about this too and what you want to lean more into doing. I love now doing live shows, meaning recording a podcast in front of a live audience, especially the ones who are big fans of your show. When they can feel and see it happening, that then one is a huge challenge. It's hard. I think it's really fun, though, and I like those challenges and I'm doing more and more of it.

Starting point is 00:59:50 but it also can show, wait a second, that was kind of just like when I listened to your podcast. That was really similar. It was almost, in fact, it felt like I was just listening to one. I was just seeing you do it. Oh, look, we could all get better at this. I mean, I think I still lean on post production as a crutch. It's like the fix it and post thing isn't a real thing, except for sometimes for me, I believe it is. So that's a problem. So speaking of live shows, the last clip I want to pull out from your show, it's not a live show per se, but you did go live. to this person's office. So it's Brian Coppelman. Brian is the writer behind lots of movies. I think

Starting point is 01:00:26 his most famous that got him sort of started in the public eye was Rounders, which I've seen way too many times to count. And now he's the co-creator of billions, which is wildly popular on TV too. So I want to play a quick clip that I think there's a lot of meat here. So let me just play it. And then I have a couple questions for you. Three words I wrote down when I thought of you, I said, I want to write down the three first things that come to mind. I mean, I listen to the moment. I watch all your stuff. I've watched rounders a million times. Sure. The three words I wrote, curiosity, obsession, and rigor. I think you use those words, maybe more than any three words, meaning you follow your curiosity and obsessions with great rigor.

Starting point is 01:01:06 Yes. Well, you know, I try to distill, I mean, people ask these questions. You try to distill some of this down, especially, I like demystifying artistic achievement. I do think, of course, there's an ineffable part of it, right? There's a part that will always feel a little bit like magic when you're sort of conjuring something from thin air. But the reason that I started doing this or one of the reasons was I had this incredible love for, you know, everybody likes the movies,

Starting point is 01:01:42 but I would watch a movie I loved enough times in a row to memorize it. Enough times in a row to really think about the way the words fit together. enough times in a row that I could quote the whole thing to you, that I can imitate it. I would, if they were doing a play at school and I didn't get, and I got cast in a part, but it wasn't a lead part, I'd find a way to also work on the crew and assistant directed. I will say back then, with zero thought that I would do this for a career, no part of me thought I would do this for a career when I was in high school. So you knew this one was coming. And as soon as we started listening to the clip together,

Starting point is 01:02:16 you just kind of went, oh, no, there's so much wrong with it. I could tell there was something going on there. So just talk me through. Why was that your reaction to this clip of you? So I think this was this around the seven minute mark of this conversation. I was still nervous. I was sitting in the office where they write the TV show Billions, where Brian records his podcast at the moment, which is one of my favorite shows.

Starting point is 01:02:39 He's one of my favorite interviewers. And you could hear the nervousness. I repeated what I was about to say, I think, three times. which is just a sheer, that's a sign of nerves. And I didn't edit it out on purpose because I think it's good for the audience to hear how nervous I was. I was sitting, I was almost, my knee was touching one of my hero's knees at this moment. We're sitting at a very small table in his office, looking him right in the eye, trying to be cool. And I failed.

Starting point is 01:03:17 I struggled to get there now. I think we eventually got there, but it just took, it took some time to settle in, and I still was not settled at this point. It's so interesting that you said that was the case live in his office. I guess the way you explained, it does make sense, though. You're in this place. It's your favorite podcast studio, so to speak, and it's the place he writes or at least conceives of a lot of his work that's famous and on TV.

Starting point is 01:03:40 But I always found that when you go in person, which is a really big sort of missing part of my shows, I think the only ones where I go consistently in person are video documentaries. So like a brand will hire me and we'll go in the field to do like a shoot. But on my podcast, it's almost all remote, which is how you and I are talking today. You're in Ohio. I'm in New York. And I feel like when you look someone in the eye, especially when you interview people all the time, you kind of realize like, oh, right, we're both just a couple of meat sacks trying to figure out this life of ours.

Starting point is 01:04:11 And like, it kind of takes away some of the aura of meeting people. but I am also theorizing because I don't do many podcast interviews in person. I actually think the opposite. I felt it when I walked in there and he was kind of gathering some of stuff. I had an assistant helping out. I was setting down to kind of get all my stuff set up. I briefly saw his main office. This was a side office where he records with the whiteboard listing episodes of billions

Starting point is 01:04:43 and just like all the cool memorabilia. I mean, it was a moment. And I, it was like, I played at the big house, University of Michigan. I played at Ohio Stadium. It always took like a series or two to get settled into the game. And you're playing in front of 110,000 people. You've watched it on TV. You've seen it.

Starting point is 01:05:08 It's still football, but it's just different. And once you get settled in, maybe you get that first hit, or you get a good completion or a good run, then you're settled and you can go. And coaches know this, and they try to call easy completions or easy plays initially to get you settled, especially if you're a young guy playing in a big place. That's what it felt like for me. I was walking into this big stadium with one of my heroes. I did not feel like he was a normal dude until probably 20 or 30 minutes in.

Starting point is 01:05:36 And then I felt like he's a dad. He's a husband. He's trying to do a good job. He's a creative artist, but I didn't feel on his level yet. And once I did, you could probably hear it as I start to settle in. But initially, it just, it was not there yet for me. That makes total sense. I think mine is, it's like you're an avatar if you're on the internet.

Starting point is 01:05:59 So you can be this like famous ghost almost. And you're a person in person. And I also think like, you've heard this as an athlete. I've heard this as a speaker. I'm sure you have too. It's almost like act like you've been there before. for. But I think what goes missing with that little phrase in your mind is you don't want to act like you're entitled to be there. Like it's still, for me, it's still be great to be like,

Starting point is 01:06:22 wow, so this is the episode list on your whiteboard, like actually embrace that you're excited in an authentic way. And I do feel like, you know, the few celebrities I've interviewed or executives that seem, see everything travel the world. Like, they kind of appreciate it. It's like, you're just being you. You're not trying to like puff up at all. You're not trying to, like, suppose that like you're, I don't know, like an interview robot. I'm so glad you brought this up, actually, Jay. Sorry for cutting you off, but I get excited for a second. I've found, and I've gotten the chance to hang around some people that work, whether

Starting point is 01:06:57 it's in Hollywood or professional athletes mostly, giving them a genuine compliment that you like their work and maybe why you like their work does not put them on a higher level. If it's a genuine real compliment, kind of the bland, whatever stuff is. But doing that, absolutely, I 100% agree with you. Like, let them know how cool it is. Don't try to be too cool in the room. But if you have a real specific compliment, tell them. And that's kind of what I was, what I shared with Brian once we got into this story that I spoke about after we cut off the clip here about why I liked Rounder so much and the meaning it had in my life. And why I, it was so important to me because of what was going on in my life and that in that moment.

Starting point is 01:07:44 Some of the stress and how Rounders helped with that. That was a specific moment for me of why it was so important. I wanted him to know that. I wanted him to know that his work helped me at a time when I was dealing with a stressful situation. So let's end with a section I'm going to call Hidden Gems. So we've talked a lot about the nuance, the behind the scenes of interviewing, of making your show, a lot of these things that maybe you haven't shared publicly, certainly things I haven't shared publicly on the microphone. I'm starting to write about them a little bit. But I'll go first

Starting point is 01:08:16 if you need some time. But what's like the one thing that like hidden gem underneath all this stuff that you want to just surface to people to keep in mind? So mine is this interplay between your intent for the work and your frameworks for it. So I think we get enamored in business with the framework that can deliver an outcome. Like what's the best? practice, what's the process. Here are these three questions that Jay and Ryan said we should ask in an interview and back to my word of transactional, like you're transacting the other person. But what you said is it didn't feel that way the way you laid it out. We're not just in a, I don't know, hollow way trying to engineer an outcome. And I think when you have a framework, you can embrace.

Starting point is 01:09:00 That is my goal as a host. My goal is to engineer an outcome. But at the same time, I have this taste, I have this intent where I also don't want to become the bachelor or even worse, the bachelor in paradise. Like I don't want to create trash moments. I have always seen this in marketing where people look at a hack, a cheat, a playbook, and they just run it and beat it to death to engineer an outcome. And what they throw out is, because an expert said do it this way, they throw out their own taste, their own intent, their own context and sensibility of that context.

Starting point is 01:09:33 Call it self and situational awareness. That gets removed. and they just follow the letter of the law. So that's sort of my hidden gem here is, yes, acknowledge that everything we're doing is to try and deliver a final thing to you, to the listener, but also we carry with us hopefully some good intent to serve. And that applies in every job, in every role. Don't let the framework or the engineering of something supersede your original intent,

Starting point is 01:10:00 which is hopefully to serve. The aspect, there are, I think there are two parts of, of every episode and or interview slash dance. One is the person you're speaking with and their story and their makeup and their credibility. Why are they the one to speak about topic X? And two is the content they deliver. And I think the best conversations, the most useful ones, can do a good job of bouncing back and forth between,

Starting point is 01:10:36 the person and the person's story, what they're about, their makeup, why they are the way they are, and then to their, perhaps where they're a domain expert. So a person writes a book about marketing. I want to learn about Jay and what makes up Jay at least part of the time. But I also am curious about why Jay is an expert on marketing. And I'll say things like, well, let's deconstruct these three parts that you've written a lot about. So that when somebody is done listening, they know, they know and like Jay Akunzo, but they also learned about his topic where he has developed some form of mastery. And that is the dance I try to do on a regular basis. And I think about that a lot more now is, we got to talk about Jay the guy and what makes him up. I want people

Starting point is 01:11:35 to care about Jay. I want people to like Jay. I want people to buy Jay's books. I want them to email Jay saying, I listen to you on The Learning Leaders Show and I bought your book because of it. But I also need to give you something in addition to just liking you. I need to give you some of this material that's going to make you better for this particular topic. And so that's why it's this delicate dance between the person and the content that they deliver. Okay, there's a lot there to cover. But first and foremost, I wanted to say, please do give us feedback. Email me, Ryan, at learningleader.com if you found this useful and you want me to continue to do these bonus episodes with Jay. We have a few other topics that we're very curious about

Starting point is 01:12:23 that we want to discuss on the podcast as bonus episodes. So if this is something that interests you, the deconstruction of specific topics, the first one being interested, but there are many others that were fascinated by. I find Jay to be one of the best people to do this with because he's incredibly smart. He forces me to think at a deeper level and through that process you can hear the learning happening in real time and I hope you're learning along with us. So as I said, let us know if this one is of interest to you. If you want us to continue to do this, I think it's good to experiment on a regular basis.

Starting point is 01:13:04 try new things. I don't expect all of them to work, but I hope this one does, and I hope they are useful for you. If they are, we will continue to do it. Once again, thank you so much for continuing to give me the opportunity to do what I love on a daily basis. For that, I will forever be grateful. All right, talk with you soon. Can't wait. I want to let you know that we have opened up tickets for our once-a-year personal excellence workshop. We did this last year and received incredible reviews, so we wanted to do it again this year, but make it even better. In addition to the topics that I personally teach on,

Starting point is 01:13:42 I have reached out to the subject domain experts within my network to be with us in the room and share their expertise, things like how to harness your personal and professional flywheel to build an incredible career. Secrets from a professional keynote speaking coach. How to become a learning machine. to utilize the mindset of a professional athlete in the business world and so much more.

Starting point is 01:14:11 This workshop is ideal for you if you want to interact with intellectually curious and interesting people. If you want to accelerate your personal and professional growth, if you have an open mind and are not afraid to be challenged. And if you are currently leading a team or have a desire to at some point in your future. For more details, go to ryanhawk. dot me. This event is intentionally kept small so the experience is intimate, engaging, and interactive. For more details and to get your ticket, go to ryanhawk.me.

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 330: Deconstructing The Art & Science Of Interviewing With Jay Acunzo

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