The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 331: Ryan Holiday - How Will You Choose To Respond? (Stillness Is The Key)

Episode Date: September 29, 2019

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk Full show notes can be found at www.LearningLeader.com Text LEARNERS to 44222 Episode #331: Ryan Holiday - Stillness Is The Key RYAN HOLIDAY is one of the world's foremost thinkers and writers on ancient philosophy and its place in everyday life. He is a sought-after speaker, strategist, and the author of many bestselling books including The Obstacle Is the Way; Ego Is the Enemy; and The Daily Stoic. His books have been translated into over 30 languages and sold over two million copies worldwide. He lives outside Austin, Texas, with his family. His latest book is called Stillness Is The Key. Notes: Commonalities of leaders who sustain excellence = They look at the whole picture They have the ability to zoom out They have balance Driven, skilled at what they do, but they do not run unchecked.  This creates happiness. Highly disciplined Temperance - Integrated into life The word enough: Balance - "We're definitely going to be forgotten."  It's important to have the quiet time to do the work.  And you have to love doing it. Michael Jordan's hall of fame speech: "It's so misguided.  The problem with proving people wrong is eventually you do it.  And it's never enough.  Rather, you should choose to prove your own potential right.  Did I leave it all on the page?  Did I fulfill my own standards?" I choose to prove my supporters right instead of allowing detractors to take up space in my head The higher power was the logos - the path of the universe... The stoics acknowledged fate and fortune and the power these forces had over them. Marcus Lattimore (RB from South Carolina and the NFL) - He said, "The career ending injury I had was the best thing that ever happened to me." Decide how you will choose to respond.  Make the choice to make a positive difference in people's lives. The impact of father hood has had on Ryan: "You realize how powerless you are as a parent.  It's humbling and eye opening." The WHO - the power of relationships It's a team.  It requires balance.  Both players must flourish independently: "Accomplishments are not part of the identity of the relationship I have with Sam (his wife).  She doesn't give a shit how many books I sell." "I have an inner scoreboard and hold myself to those standards." The value of a daily journal - The process, the ritual, the routine is helpful. The act of the devotion.  Quiet time everyday, provides energy in the morning.  "A routine becomes a ritual over time." Journaling one line a day for five years: It's the process of warming up, talking to self, verbalizing fears Thoughtfulness - "Interrogate yourself at the end of each day." -- This is what Churchill did Hitler said, "I recognized the correctness of my views."  That's not wisdom, it's insanity.  Don't do that. Privately, Abraham Lincoln with racked with doubt. The epidemic of ego easily mistakes for confidence and strength Stillness - What we're working towards.  We need it to think clearly.  We need to rest. Must be fully in the moment Momento Mori - "Get in the moment" Speaking routine - Wear the same clothes, workout before, listen to the same music, manage energy, funnel focus, and know that the material helps people Use the "Get To Know You Document" Why joining The Learning Leader Circle is a good idea  

The truth is, like, of all the things in the world, we control, like, a very, very tiny fraction of them. And so most of the time, all we're actually doing is responding to these things we don't control. And if we can give up that sense of resentment or powerlessness about it and instead focus on what we're going to do in response, I think we're better off. We're happier. We're better parents. We're better whatever we do professionally. But it sort of takes a wake-up call. Real quick, before we get to this episode, I want to let you know that we have opened up tickets for our once a year personal excellence workshop.

We did this last year and received incredible reviews, so we wanted to do it again this year, but make it even better. In addition to the topics that I personally teach on, I have reached out to the subject domain experts within my network to be with us in the room and share their expertise. things like how to harness your personal and professional flywheel to build an incredible career. Secrets from a professional keynote speaking coach. How to become a learning machine. How to utilize the mindset of a professional athlete in the business world and so much more. This workshop is ideal for you if you want to interact with intellectually curious and interesting people. If you want to accelerate your personal and professional growth, if you have an open mind and are not afraid to be challenged.

And if you are currently leading a team or have a desire to at some point in your future. For more details, go to Ryanhawk.me. This event is intentionally kept small so the experience is intimate, engaging, and interactive. For more details and to get your ticket, go to Ryanhawk. me. Welcome to the Learning Leaders Show presented by Brixian Meyer. I am Ryan Hawk. Thanks so much for being here. Text learners to 4-4-2-2-2 in order to join tens of thousands of learning leaders from all over the world. Receive Mindful Monday updates when I'm reading, watching, thinking about, and writing, carefully curated material to help you become a more effective leader. Text learners to 4-4-2-2.

Now on tonight's featured leader, my friend Ryan Holiday, is back for his fourth appearance on the show. He's the bestselling author of multiple books, including The Obstacle is the Way, Ego is the Enemy, perennial seller, and his most recent work is titled, Stillness is the Key. He writes about marketing, culture, and the human condition. He's advised Google, Taser, Complex, and many other companies, as well as multi-platinum musicians and some of the biggest authors in the world. world. A few of the topics we discussed. Why using anger as fuel is misguided and what is a better source of motivation for you. Then the two benefits of a daily journal followed up by why you should interrogate yourself at the end of each day. As those of you who have been long time listeners know, these conversations with Ryan go deep. And this one absolutely did and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

You're going to love it. It's Ryan Holiday. All right, Ryan Holiday. Fourth appearance, I believe that's the most of any guest I've ever had on, man. Welcome back to the Learning Leader Show. Yeah, I'm honored. That's very cool to hear. So I think January 2016, June 2016, July, 2017, that was, we covered obstacle, ego is the enemy, and perennial seller. So now we're going to focus a little bit more on stillness, man. I'm really excited because I've been fortunate to get a chance to read your latest work.

it may be your best. And it's really useful for anyone in a leadership realm. Oh, thank you. To get us going, let's talk about excellence or you may use the word virtue. And we've spoken about this before, probably both in person and on the podcast. But when you think about the people in your life, the people in your sphere that whether you study them, write about them, hang out with them, those people who have the ability to sustain excellence. What have you found that those few have in common? I think, you know, in the course of writing this book and getting a little older, I definitely think I've expanded my definition of excellence or greatness or virtue,

or at least I guess I'm more interested in looking at the whole picture. So I'm less impressed with people, for instance, who, are just able to win a lot or people who have made lots of money. I'm more, I've zoomed out slightly to be able to see like at what cost do these things come at. So when I look at people who are extremely accomplished, but let's say very unhappy or they're very accomplished, but this has come at the expense of other people, you know, whether it's the public at large or their family, I'm much less impressed. So when I look at people who have really done great things that I go, that's the kind of person I admire. That's the kind of person I want to be like. What I see is balance. So they've,

they have this drive. They have this skill. They have this ability to do things. But it is not given unlimited. It's not it's not that it's not at full throttle. It's just not let run unchecked. Right. And, and I certainly see that in myself. Like, I feel like I've done. So, pretty good things that I wouldn't define myself as great, but I've done good things. I've been successful in my field. Do I think that I've probably left some material success on the table? Sure. But am I happy with what I've traded through being, let's say, disciplined, this idea of temperance, this idea of knowing what enough is? So I guess this is a roundabout way of answering your question. When I see real greatness, what I see is balance, that this greatness is integrated,

into their life, they haven't turned themselves into a football machine or a writing machine or a money-making machine because in a way that's almost the easier thing to do. I was going to say if there was one word I'd pull from your latest work, stillness is the key. It was the word enough. Yes. This was one of the words that Tiger Woods and his dad had between each other if his dad was pushing it too far. but it also has multiple meetings throughout the book, the word enough.

And I think you touched on it there when describing virtue or excellence is that this ability to find that difficult balance. And I struggle with this myself. I'm sure you do as well. A lot of, I think, high performers probably do is we are probably growth-oriented, always striving for more. Don't take enough time. When I say we, I should say me. Don't take enough time to celebrate when something goes well because you're thinking, well, wait a second, there's more, there's more, there's more, when really the word I get is get to enough. So how do you juxtapose between that, that balance of saying, well, wait a second, I want the next book deal, I want the speaking gig, I want to raise my rates, I want to do more, more, more, and if I don't, there's a chance that maybe I'll be forgotten, or maybe they'll just call somebody else to come speak to the Cleveland Browns.

whatever it may be. How do you balance that? So I think first off, we can, we can solve this through, like, you know, when you look at a difficult math problem, they're like sort of get rid of the variables that cancels cancel each other out or just get rid of the stuff that you don't need to solve for. And so the first would be like, we're definitely going to be forgotten, right? Like, we're definitely going to be forgotten. So if we can, if we can stop thinking, hey, if I do X, then I will be remembered for longer. And this. This is one of the, I think, the most interesting themes in all of stoicism. You know, Marcus Aurelius in his meditations, he's writing over and over again about how the names of even the emperors just like a few emperors back, nobody knows.

Like, have you ever heard of Vespasian? That's like three emperors before Marcus Aurelius, right? And so he's like, look, even this job, the most coveted, difficult, most well-known job in the world. has a memory recall of only a generation or two. And then he goes, look, also, even if we did know who Vespasian is, he's dead. So what does he care? Right? So I think first we go like, look, accomplishing things so we'll be remembered by people who are living after us is a pretty worthless goal.

And we can say, okay, so my goal is to be successful in my own time, to have success I can actually enjoy. and then go, okay, where does that seem to come from, right? And I was just thinking about this morning. Like, originally for me, success was like, I want to write a book. That's what success is. And that was success for me for many years, and it took a long time to get there. But almost before the ink on the contract was dry, I was thinking, now I have to make this a bestseller.

And then before I even framed the bestseller, you know, its appearance on the bestseller list, I was selling the next book. And it's like this with everything. It's like I found my dream house. And then the next thing you know, I'm remodeling it, right? Like, we can't stop ourselves. And I think we go, sure, this is the source of why I'm never content, why I never enjoy what I have, but it's spurring me to do more and more. But when I actually look at the work that I've done, when I look at the books that I've written, it wasn't that ceaselessness, that discontent that made me able to do it. It was the quiet time I had alone in front of the computer screen. It was the love of actually doing the thing that was the source of my success.

It's the endless desire, the insatiability. That's only responsible for the fact that I feel all this pressure and this anxiety and insecurity. The work is what I like. And finishing the work and doing the work and having the work, that's what I like. But the inability to enjoy it, that's where that insatiability comes in. And so I'm just not sure that being content is actually the enemy of producing things. I think you can produce great things from a great place. I think it's hard.

Again, it's harder, but it's ultimately maybe pure and better. You've written about Michael Jordan's Hall of Fame speech. Yeah. how misguided it was. And I remember watching it. And you may have been like me where you grow up almost idolizing this guy. I loved watching him play. I had WGN.

I could watch all of his games. And he was my favorite player. A lot of people, my age, probably his favorite player, even younger. And he's trying to show that during this Hall of Fame speech, if you haven't watched it,

you could YouTube it. And basically he talks about all of the people who doubted him. And he's trying to show that anger can be used. is fuel. And I've, I wish that wasn't a thing, I guess, is my, is my, I think it can be flipped. And you've written about this as well. So I want you to expand on it. But I love proving my supporters right. I feel like that's such a more, more enjoyable way to live. Because it also, though, is painful, Ryan. I've, I've proven my supporters wrong as well. For example, I go to college. I get a scholarship to play at Miami University. It so happens the exact same time, the exact same. The exact

same age as me in the exact same position is a guy named Ben Rothelsberger, and he beats me out for that job. I had people who supported me, who backed me, who believed in me, who said I was going to be the starting quarterback, and I lost. I proved them wrong. I was more upset about the fact that I proved my supporters wrong than trying to F the haters or any of that type of behavior like Michael Jordan. So I'm curious, when you think about those proving supporters right versus proving haters wrong. What's your thought process there, especially as you studied Michael Jordan in that speech? No, that's a beautiful way to put it. I talk to George Ravlin, who I know you had on the podcast when I was writing that chapter. And he was saying that, you know, it was basically like Jordan had sort of

shut all these demons up in a closet for a very long time. And they were sort of his secret, all the anger that he had, all the rage that he had, all the people he was trying to prove wrong. And that it all sort of came spilling out in this embarrassing way on a moment that should have been quite wonderful. It turned it awful. What I think so interesting about that is like every single person that I've talked to in sports, coaches who have won Super Bowls, you know, athletes who have been the greatest in their field, they all, they're like, oh my God, that speech is so awful, you know, like it's so bad. And then if you were to like sort of let it sit so they didn't think it was a trap, you talked to them a couple weeks later and you were like, so how does anger work on the field?

be like, oh, it's great fuel. So it's interesting. We see what the true costs of it are in examples like that. And then we go, well, I'm just going to dabble with it myself or I'm going to use it a little bit here. And I'm not sure it works that way. I like your idea that it's better to try to be proving people right than proving people wrong. The problem with trying to prove people wrong is that eventually you do it. And then instead of feeling good, right, there's never enough. Your mind begins to invent new slights and new people to prove wrong. And so you end up sort of going through the world almost subconsciously seeking out conflict and enemies. And that's what you hear in Michael Jordan's speech. You're like, wait, let me get this straight. Like, you're mad that your college

basketball coach didn't feature you in a players to look out for column in Sports Illustrated in 1982 and you're still trying to prove him wrong. Like the coach doesn't even remember. It's not like this was some big thing where you guys went head to head and you're holding on to a grudge with Isaiah Thomas or John Stockdale or something. It's like you've invented a conflict that did not even exist and you're hanging on to it. I think for me, what I try to think about is like it's not even am I proving other people right, but like am I proving myself right? Like am I prove it? Am I proving my own potential right. Like, did I leave it all on the page? Like, let's say as a writer, did I do everything I could as a writer? Or did I, did I phone it in? Did I take shortcuts? Did I not

fulfill my own standards? And I think what you're saying is that you want to have standards that are higher than just winning or losing or just other people. You want to have sort of your own set of standards. And so, you know, if I was looking at you and Ben Rossellsberger, I'd say, did you give everything that you could? Like, some people are just better, right? Some people are taller. Some people are stronger. Some people have a moment in time or get a break that we didn't get. So it's more like success or failure in that matchup is like, did Ryan Hawk play with everything he had? If so, then you can sort of walk away with your head held high. If you went, you know what, there were times where I thought it was mine. And since I didn't get it, I wasn't

going to put in the work or I was going to hold a little bit back, then I'd walk away from that thinking, okay, how could, how can I learn from that? How can I improve? How can I not let either that ego or insecurity or sort of external, uh, focus lead me astray again in the future? It's a great way to look at it. And I, it made me think of, um, so you, you write a lot about Stoicism and the Stoics, they had, their higher power was, was the Logos, which was the path of the universe. They acknowledged fate. They acknowledged fate and fortune and the power. These forces had over them.

This helped them access a kind of stillness and peace. And so I'm curious your thought process for you, since you're so in deep with studying this and how it impacts your life, because a lot of us, I don't know, we want, this agency to say, I'm going to determine what happens. The choices I make, the work ethic I have, the discipline, the consistency, that is what's going to determine my future. How do you view that with the logos or just the path of the universe? And this is kind of deep, but I think it's important because it impacts us on a daily basis. So I gave a talk to the Gamecocks, the University of South Carolina three or four months ago. And when I was there, I was talking to, to Mark Marcus Lattimore. And there you have a guy who was sort of a once in a generation talent, a guy that

was set up for a huge career in the pros. Everyone was looking forward to what he was going to be able to do. And then he has this devastating on-field injury. He does a couple years, I think, with the 49ers. But basically what everyone thought and probably what he dreamed of and what he worked his life to do didn't come to pass. And it wasn't his fault. And it wasn't fair, but it's what happened. And I was talking to him. And so when you talk to someone like that, I mean, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect they might be a little bitter or have some regrets or have some sort of like, oh, I just wish it were different. And he's now the director of personnel for the football team there. And I was talking to him about it. And his attitude was just like amazing. Like he, he seemed happier than

few people I've met. And he said something like, that injury was the best thing that ever happened to me. because if it hadn't happened to me, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't be working with these kids. And I never would have discovered even this line of work, right? Like he didn't even know that being director of sort of player development for a team, like, was a job. And it turns out he's actually amazing at it. And so I just love that idea. And so we had this sense that agency is like getting everything that you want, right?

agency is like, I'm going to make it into the pros. I'm going to beat the odds. I'm going to have millions of dollars. I'm going to have famous football player. And if I can't have that, then I don't have any agency. But the Stokes would say is like, look, you can work towards that and you have some influence over it, but ultimately, whole other host of factors can intervene, you know, an injury, a weather. The league can get shut down, right? Like, football could be made illegal, right? Like, so many things stand between you and getting that thing. for better or for worse. And so the agency is not in getting what you want. The agency is in saying yes to the specific situations as they happen. So for him, agency was deciding, okay, I'm not able to

play football anymore. I'm going to choose to do this instead. And I'm going to choose to be really good at it and I'm going to choose not to be resentful. And I'm going to choose not to become a drunk or a pill addict or a bitter old man. I'm going to choose to make a positive difference in people's lives and be really good at this new thing, which wasn't an opportunity for me before. And to me, that's what this balance is about. You know, the Stoics basically thought we're sort of being pulled along and we can either go with the flow of that or we can just sort of lay down. But ultimately we're going to be dragged there one way or another, and so we might as well go willingly. So it's really how you choose to respond in those moments, both of success and failure.

Yeah, yeah. And it's how you choose to respond in everyday situations as well, right? You don't control traffic. You don't control the weather. You don't control that the internet goes down, but you control how you're going to respond to that thing. How do you do this now as you, you've had a second child correct? Yes. How do you, how do you, this is one of the most challenging things for me as a parent is I feel pretty composed and measured and in control most of the time, except for maybe when a child lies or does something and it, and it upsets me.

And sometimes I'm not proud of how I respond in those moments in the split second. Most parents could probably agree. And I know your kids are younger, so maybe they're different things that you're dealing with. But how has being a parent now twice impacted you in this regard, your choice of, because now it's not about you anymore. It is about you, but it's also about you're responsible for others. And so how do you use what you've learned from the stoics and how to respond and how to make choices as a dad? Yeah. Look, I'm fortunate or at least somewhat ignorant so far, and that they're not quite lying to us.

They're not quite, you know, trying to sneak out in the middle of the night or whatever. But what you do get from having children is just a wake-up call in terms of like how powerless you are over the universe, right? Unless you want to be a terrible parent, right? It's like, hey, we're driving. We're meeting these people at 2 o'clock. but your kid fell asleep at 155. Like, actually, you're getting there whenever your two-year-old decides, you know, he's ready to wake up, right?

Or when you wake up in the morning is not when your alarm goes off. It's when you hear crying and screaming and banging on the door. And so it's just sort of a reminder that, like, for a very short period, you had some autonomy over your life and all of a sudden that autonomy is gone and you better kind of get used to it. And so it's a, in that sense, for me, it's been very humbling and eye-opening. And I think a chance to practice this way of thinking and being that we don't, we don't naturally want to sort of assent to, but we have to because the truth is, like, of all the things in the world, we control, like, a very, very tiny fraction of them. And so most of the time, all we're actually doing is responding to these things we don't control.

And if we can give up that sense of resentment or powerlessness about it and instead focus on what we're going to do in response, I think we're better off. We're happier. We're better parents. We're better whatever we do professionally. But it sort of takes a wake-up call. There's also a lot of discussion that you have out there around the power of great relationships. relationships and how impactful a great life partner is. And we've talked a little bit about your wife, Samantha, the past.

I've been fortunate to hang out with you guys a little bit at Mastermind Talks. And we've probably all now seen Harvard study. Scott Galloway talked about the number one predictor of happiness and contentment is love, full stop. What have you learned over the years about not only your relationship with your wife, but others in general and how that has had such an impact on contentness, success, failure, everything in between, mainly the who in your life? Yeah, sure. I mean, I think just the idea of, like, you know, a bunch of my friends, it's like,

they meet someone, they get married right away, and then they have kids. And that was after, you know, 30 years of doing everything they wanted, however they wanted to never having to answer to another person, never really having to be responsible to another person. And so I think this is a hard way to do it, right? Because you've gotten so used to sort of being the center of the universe and all of a sudden you're not. I think what having a relationship does, having a partner is, is you realize that this is not just about you, that this is a sort of a team. And the team requires balance. You know, it requires both players to flourish independently. You know, one can eclipse the other. One can't. Eclipse the other. One can

suck all the oxygen out of the room. And this, I think, especially for sort of ambitious, busy people, people with egos, this is easy to lose, you know, this is, this is, this is, it's easy to slip into sort of being the dominant one or being the center of attention because that's what you prefer, but that's not what a successful relationship will tolerate. You know, I think I've been with my wife a long time. We've only been married maybe four years, but, but we've been together since we were 20. And having someone that you sort of been with the whole time also provides, I think, an important amount of perspective. Like, my wife remembers me when I was 20, you know, she didn't meet me as I accomplished

things. So my accomplishments are not really part of my identity in the relationship. And neither are hers, right? The things that she's done or the things that she's not done because she's been in the relationship, right? Like we're two people, we have a connection, we have a great deal of shared experiences. That's the relationship, not, oh, you know, I met this person when they had done X, Y, and C, and I just so admired that, and I just wanted to be near that.

You know, I think a lot of relationships start with accomplishments or material success being part of the people's identity. And this can skew things in a probably not so healthy way. And do you feel a sense of her keeping you grounded? I know just from afar seeing the way she makes fun of you on maybe an Instagram story. It is. And I don't see, I don't think, from what I've gathered, you guys don't have professional social media people doing those posts. It's just you genuinely kind of making fun of each other.

Her mainly making fun of you and on the farm or whatever you're doing. And in a way, it's very relatable. And I think that's what humanizes somebody like you, which is a good thing that you can have these moments where you're on stage in front of thousands and thousands of people or you're in front of a professional football team. But yet you're also not figuring out how to properly feed the animals, things like that. So what do you think about that? Yeah, I mean, I'm sort of less interested in like how the relationship helps my brand. Not that that's what you're saying. Right.

But like I'm less interested in like the appearances that it, the appearances that it presents and the benefits from that. And more in that like, I guess what I'm saying is like it's not that it helps me be more relatable. It's that it actually makes me remain a normal person. And that's, I think, very difficult to do when you're very obsessed with or very dedicated to a specific craft or industry or whatever. So I don't know. I think it's always been important to me. to sort of just remain a normal person and to maybe hesitate from that step between like, hey, this is a normal person who's really good at what they do, who's done this stuff, and then the kind of person where you meet someone, you're like, oh, man, that guy's living in his own universe, you know, like, I don't understand how that works. I don't understand how it doesn't all come crashing down, but clearly that person is living in their own universe. That's always sort of been important to me not to do.

I'm not sure exactly why, but I think having. someone like Samantha, my life sort of does, does that in that I'm, I am a normal person. Because, you know, she doesn't, she doesn't give a shit about how many books I've sold, aside from the fact that, you know, she wants to make sure that the bills are paid. But like, that doesn't, you know, sort of change how she sees me. And, you know, we were talking about having that sort of inner scorecard earlier. I think that's also helpful in a relationship. Because, like, let's say one of my books came out and it really didn't do well.

I'm not even sure we would talk about it. Like it would because it, I mean, we might talk about it and that it might be affecting my feelings, but it wouldn't like affect anything at home, right? Because we've managed to build a life or a relationship that's sort of totally independent from those things. Gotcha. Okay, I want to hit on a couple topics that I've taken notes on. It's funny, we always seem to, I never plan on it, but it comes back to relationships because I just think it's so important.

Okay. I want to talk about the benefits of a daily journal. And you've written about Anne Frank. And there's a cool little post online by Derek Sivers about the benefits of a daily journal. And the purpose of doing it is to understand fully encompassing what's happening in that specific moment. So you understand how you felt. Because you can't necessarily trust distant memories, but you can trust your diary, because your diary tells you what was going on.

in that moment. Why should we all keep a daily journal, diary, whatever, whatever may be? Yeah, I know the article you're talking about. I think in that piece, he's talking about the benefits of a journal in terms of like, hey, you know, last time I changed jobs, here's what I journaled about. And now that I'm doing it again, I can sort of review. And I think there is value in that. I love Derek.

I don't use my journal in that way. To me, it's the process. It's like having a sort of a ritual. routine. And the way that like somebody else might pray, they don't like keep a running tally of their prayer and then revisit it to see what they've been praying about. It's it's the act of the devotion of the process of the experience that provides the value, right? And I think it for me, it's it's the process of in the morning, this is what I do. I do this every day without fail. I have quiet time to myself to do it.

I'm taking thoughts out of my head where they're bouncing around and I'm putting them on the page, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. To me, that's the benefit of the ritual. It's like you do a routine long enough. It turns into ritual. I think eventually journaling has become a bit of a ritual for me and it helps sort of slow things down. It helps center me a little bit. And then, of course, the process of writing thoughts down is also a big part of it. What do you write about then?

So if you're not, because I, I think there could be benefits to both because I do, like, since, since doing that, I've started keeping one. And it, and it's fascinating to look back, especially, you know, you've helped me in numerous stages of me writing my first book. And I look back at some of my journal entries and how I felt. So I'll say, one of an entry may say something like, I'm at 24,438 words. this is a grind a lot harder than I thought must keep going. Something like that. You know, and I look back and I'm like, oh, man, okay, I remember. And that was a long time ago.

And it, and it was a journey. And then, you know, there's entries obviously leading all the way up to 77,000 words in what I was doing. And I was really keen on doing that during that process because I wanted to remember the pain, the tough moments through that process of writing a book. So how, so I see the benefits of both. What are, what is your thought process on, on, on doing it for you? Yeah. And I do a little bit of that too. So I have one journal that's like a one line a day journal and you basically write one,

what you're doing on a specific date every day for five years. So there's five like sections on each page. I've been doing this for like three or three and a half years. So I can see like, you know, a couple, uh, weeks ago I was writing in it. I was like, oh, I started the Tiger Woods section of Stillness is the key. Like today, that's really cool. And I do, I do like that. But mostly it's, it's just the process of like warming up, sitting down, talking to myself about what I'm feeling, sort of verbalizing feelings, verbalizing fears, verbalizing anxieties, talking to myself about habits that maybe I like or I don't

like, you know, like I was writing in my journal yesterday, that like I've watched what time I go to bed creep up and up or creep later and later, but the time that I wake up stay the same. So it's like, how do you think this is going to go, right? Like you're going to be more and more tired and this is going to, obviously the consequences of this are going to pop up somewhere. And so it's just sort of about having a little conversation with yourself. There might be value, and I've certainly gotten value out of revisiting that conversation from time to time. But I think it's primarily the just authentic raw in the moment conversation that most of the values created. There's value in getting it out and knowing this is a daily ritual, like a morning pages type exercise? Yeah, yeah. It's like morning pages,

but it's also just like, I don't need to check in on my sleep habit like a year for now. I need to fix it now. So it's like, hey, like why don't you try to go to bed? earlier tonight. Oh, yeah, sure. You know, okay. And then that's what I did. So it's, it's more about just sort of like maintenance and checking in and just sort of being on top of of where you are in the moment. If I keep finding that I'm writing about how tired I am, maybe I'm going to do that. Or if I keep writing about, you know, how stressed I feel, maybe I need to look at all the things that I've been saying yes to or whatever. Maybe if I'm arguing with my wife, well, what's the source of that? Who's responsible for it? What's contributing it? What's a potential solution?

You know, and so it's just, I think, about resolving the things that are happening as they're happening. Ryan, what I've gathered now doing this 350 plus times is, is, yeah, that's just a while in itself, I guess. Now I take a step back. But there's really two people, the number one question I receive usually in a Q&A is what, what do you find in common amongst all those people? And you're exhibiting it right now. And those two things that I would say is that those people that are there are, ways to sustain excellence in their own right as you have is they are incredibly thoughtful and very intentional in their behavior. So they take those moments to reflect, to think,

to analyze with the experiments they do based upon their learnings. And then they decisively put it into action and then are in a constant state of being able to reflect and adjust. How do you think about the acts of thoughtfulness and intention? No, I think that's a great way to put it. I mean, I think it's, Winston Churchill was saying that he, he sort of interrogates himself at the end of, at the end of each day. He wants to make sure that he actually did something effective, that he wasn't just pawing at the ground.

Seneca talks about putting each day up for review. I think you have to be intentional because if you're not, what are you doing? You're just following your nature. You're just following what feels easiest most of the time. You have to sort of be there checking in and evaluating in the way that, you know, an athlete has coaches that are there to sort of do this for them. So in a way, that process is sort of externalized, right? It's like if you're not giving your full effort, they have a heart rate monitor that's watching you. You know, they can see whether you're in the weight room, whether you're putting in the reps.

They can see whether you're catching the ball. And then, you know, when you do your job at the end of the week, they can see whether you put points on the board or not or, you know, whether you blew your coverage or not, you know, whether you got on base or not. Life is a little bit less black and white than that for the rest of us. So if you want to sort of be improving, if you want to be growing, if you want to do well or whatever it is you're doing, that can't be externalized. It's ultimately on you. Nobody cares if I write or don't write, you know. Nobody cares if I put in the extra effort or not. In the sense that I don't get the immediate feedback or validation or yelling if I'm dropping off.

It just the sort of cause and effect in my profession, and I think in, you know, in doing podcasts and being an influence, any of these things that these sort of newer professions, the cause and effect is much more ambiguous or it's much more subtle or it happens over a longer period of time. And so if you want to keep doing what you do, you have to stay on top of yourself. And I think journaling is one way to do that. There is a feature and a leader that I really admire when I can tell that they put in the effort. And that's the willingness in being able to change your mind. Sure. In politics today, it seems like it's a bad thing, which I don't like. And there's a part of your book where you even wrote about Hitler.

And one of the biggest issues, among others, he's got many, obviously. But he spent his short prison sentence after World War I reading the classics of history. And instead of learning anything, he said, quote, I recognize the correctness of my views. And you've said, that's not wisdom. That's insanity. Why, as leaders, do some feel like they are right or that they can't change their mind? because I think we all can analyze the people we look up to and the leaders who have been most effective, and they're the ones who are constantly trying to be less wrong, constantly seeking more.

So I'm just always puzzled by this because it seems like the answers are right there for us to say, no, no matter what, we're never going to have this thing figured out. It's about the journey. Well, I think we know that we want confidence in a leader, right? Because we're not going to follow someone who doesn't think they're going in the right. direction, right? So we want someone who has done the work, who knows what they're talking about, who's, you know, picked a good course of action and is sort of sticking to it despite the fact that it's hard, right? Or despite the fact that they're getting criticism for it, right? You know,

you think someone like Lincoln in the Civil War, you know, at the beginning of the war, people said, you could never win this. You've got to give the South what they won. And then even throughout the war, even the people that had sort of advocated for the war in the first place were, like, some of the most fair weather supporters. They were the ones that said, we had to settle, we had to negotiate, you know, over and over again, they wanted Lincoln to sort of do anything but stick with the course that he was on. And so we know that's what a good leader looks like, right? The problem is it's very easy to act like that.

like ego can very easily masquerade as a similar, as a similar mindset. So we think privately, Lincoln was racked with doubts and he was constantly looking for where he was wrong. He was willing to pursue all these options. It was that, you know, when he would pursue them and when you really look at the facts, it was like, no, this isn't going to work. They're not actually serious about surrendering. These negotiations are being done in bad faith. Then another war will break out very quickly, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So Lincoln was what you were talking about, someone who had a mix of both confidence but also humility. He was trying to be less wrong all the time, even though he was pretty sure that what he was doing was right. Then you have someone who comes along, whether it's a

Donald Trump or any liberal politician that wants to pretend that difficult problems have very simple solutions. This I alone can fix it, that it can all be captured. It can all be captured. in a tweet that, you know, I'm never going to admit I'm wrong. I'm not going to acknowledge any of the obvious flaws in my plans. So we have, what we really have is an epidemic of ego that the public not being informed, lacking wisdom themselves, easily mistakes for confidence and strength. And the truth is, ego is about as far from strength as you can find. It's actually, usually very fragile, very insecure based on nothing. But we in this sort of social media world, in this time of political polarization,

gravitate towards ego because it's more seductive than confidence, and frankly, a lot more common as well. Really, though? You think? I mean, that's the opposite how I feel, though. It's hard to win an election going, this is a really tough problem. And lots of people are going to have to sacrifice. And like, like, think about it.

Again, I don't think this is political, but like, yeah. The left's problem is that Trump has come in and done a bunch of executive orders, made emergency declarations, generally sort of acted as if the president is the most powerful person in government, which undermines Congress and the Senate and the legal system and sort of overrides our checks and balances, right? Again, I don't think it's controversial. This is what people on the left thing. Then when you watch the Democratic debates, what is Camilla Harris and Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren saying they're going to do? Do they go, look, it's going to be a long, hard slog to reempower Congress and reempower the Senate and get our branches of government working in concert with each other again? And that to do this is going to require compromise because the American system requires majorities or in some cases super majorities. And it's not as simple as just having one more vote than the other side.

No, they go, my first day in office, I'm going to fix immigration and my first day in office, I'm going to fix health care, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, which of course is not only exactly what Trump has claimed to do. Trump also just prove that it's not possible, right? Like Trump hasn't been able to do any of those things and all these orders have been, for the most part, ineffective because that's not how the system is designed to work. And so the idea of selling to say the electorate or to your audience, the self-help audience wants to be told the secret that if you just wish for something, you'll get it. But the truth is an honest author would never write that because that's preposterous, right? And a truly honest, a truly confident, a truly great politician is not going to make promises that can't possibly be kept. They're going to try to tell people the truth and the reality is the truth. often hurts. Is that just the way it is? Is there, I mean, maybe it is. I'm curious, is that the way it has to be in order for this thing to work?

Is that just the machine or the game that we're all playing? Or what do you think? No, I mean, I think the United States has got a decently rich history of people who actually put the time and energy in to figure out how the system worked and tried to get it to work and got it to work. or on all different sides. You have Lincoln, who's a Republican who gets it to work during the Civil War. You have Lyndon Johnson in the 1960s, who's probably the most, you know, sort of effective parliamentarian in American history. He wasn't a particularly great president, but he, you know, he does pass civil rights and he passes a number of sort of great society programs, many of which are still with us today. There are certainly great leaders. You know, George Washington didn't win the American Revolution.

telling people what they wanted to hear. He did it through sort of self-sacrifice and leadership and strength and courage. So, I mean, I think there's precedent for it whether we're at a painful enough place that we can accept that we're not going to get everything we want exactly the way we want it is probably a totally separate question. Let's pivot a bit to stillness. why is this the third book from obstacle and ego and now stillness? Why is this the focus of your latest work? So I think the books work well together. You know, obstacle is about how you overcome difficulties in life.

It's much more about sort of brute force and energy and passion and drive. Ego is about what I think our biggest obstacle actually. is, you know, ourselves, our own sort of delusions and selfishness and, and, you know, self-importance. And then stillness to me is kind of what these things are working towards, right? When you remove ego, you make room for stillness. You need stillness to be able to think really clearly about the obstacles that you face in life. You know, you need stillness to rest after you overcome obstacles. So I think the books work well together in that sense.

There's sort of a progression. But I mean, the shorter answer is like it's just what I was really interested in and what I felt like was where I wanted to go creatively. It's what I felt I needed more of in my own life. And that sort of, that has been a decent approximation for me over the years of what, of what readers end up being interested in as well. I try to write books, not from some position of superiority, but from a position of like, this is something I'm trying to work on. This is something I would like to be better at. This is something that I benefit from. And in the process of

researching and writing and thinking about it, I get a little bit closer to it myself. And then I've also produced something of value to the reader. One of the stories is about Sean Green and breaking out of a slump. And one of the tactics used is to slow his thinking. And I think of another parallel example is the world of golf, not necessarily Tiger, but I think of Brooks Kepka, who's having immense success right now. And if you have listened and read what Brooks has said about the way he approaches golf is he walks up to the ball, he gets a number, meaning the distance, he checks the wind,

and he hits the shot. It doesn't think very much, really slows it down, and he just goes and plays. And when he gets on the green, he reads the putt quickly and he hits the put. And he's had as much success as anybody recently. How can we translate the Sean Green example of slowing your thinking to get out of a slump or the Brooks Kepka method of getting your number and hitting the shot when we're, let's say, our daily lives of leading a team? The avatar usually paint Ryan is this mid-level manager who works at a big company and they're striving to grow and exceed goals and they're ambitious and they eventually want to get promoted again. And they want to use stillness in their life and learn from these stories of history, from these athletes into the business world. What advice do you give them?

Yeah, I think it's a golf's a great example. Baseball is another great example of why. we, why overthinking can be dangerous. You know, Yogi Berra's line was, you can't hit and think at the same time. There's just not enough space there, right? Brooks is interesting because he does have that sort of in the momentness. But then he also talks about how he's sort of driven by anger and proving people wrong. So it'll be interesting to see how he balances those two, yeah, those two approaches.

But I think that the point is when you're sitting down, or you're standing up to hit a golf ball, or you're sitting down to right, or you're sitting down to a staff, meeting where you have a big pitch you're making, you have to be fully in the moment. You have to be fully engaged in what you're doing. Your mind can't be somewhere else. Like if you think about it with golf, well, golf is such a humbling game because when you approach the ball and you tell yourself you're just going to hit hit it a mile. That's precisely when you whiff it, right? When you, when you jerk your head up to follow the ball, that's when you shank the shot. Golf is like one of those weird games where the more you're thinking about it and the harder.

you're trying to do it, usually the worse you are at it. And so it requires this sort of balance of both being fully engaged and then also letting go. And I think life is the same way. I mean, when you go into, let's say you have to call a client who's not behaving properly, or you have to have a confrontation with an employee, if you're going into that with a very rigid understanding of how it's going to go and what you're going to get out of it and what you have to say, what you want to get off your chest, I know from in my own experiences, those are precisely the situations that spiral out of control. Because instead of going in and going, I'm going to have this conversation. And here's the general outcome that I'd like to get to. I'm willing to sort of weave and bob

and coast my way there. Whatever it takes, I'm in this to do it right, is a very different approach than like, I'm going to shove this down their throat. And if they don't like it, Those are the situations where the tension you're bringing into it is actually exacerbating it, making it worse. And so what I'm really talking about in that chapter is just sort of how do you push all the expectations, how do you push the past experiences, how do you push the anxieties about the future out of your mind and you're just fully engaged with what's in front of you? this ability to live in the moment. One thing about you as your work has become more pipeline, it's cool to see kind of from afar and talking to you along the way over the years now of seeing you out there in front of these incredible groups.

I'm fascinating to learn a little bit briefly here while we have a few minutes about your process leading up to giving. For example, I recently saw you're in front of the Cleveland Browns. And they gave everybody there your books, multiple books, and I believe a coin, correct? Yeah. And you can talk about that as well. But how do you get ready and then deliver a message to a group of professional athletes that perhaps you look up to or you think, I can't believe them in this room or maybe you don't think that? I'm just wondering about your, this is probably more selfishly than anything, but I'm wondering about your mindset leading up to that moment. What happened then during the time? and then as well afterwards. Yeah, so what they ended up giving also, and I think this pertains what we're talking about,

I have a coin and we make it for Daily Stoic. I carry in my pocket and it just says Memento Mori. And then on the back, it has a quote from Marcus Realis, and it says, you could leave life right now, let that determine what you do and say and think. And I find that having that reminder on me does help me get a little bit more in the moment. It helps me, you know, not think too much about the talk

that I'm going to give, but it also makes me not take the talk that I'm about to give for granted. I go into a talk in the way probably not that dissimilar than an athlete or anyone that does a performer that does what they do. I have a bit of a routine. I try to have like a certain set of clothes that I wear, you know, so I'm not like stressed about what I'm choosing or not choosing. I try to work out beforehand. I try to listen to music going into it. One of the hardest parts about giving talks to sports teams, for instance, is that because it's such a cool experience,

it does mess with the routine. So it's like, I like to, there's always this tension between how early they want you to get there and when you want to get there, right? And so it's like, you know, the sports team was like, hey, come at 10 o'clock tomorrow. And, you know, then you'll talk to the team around six. And it's like, that's a really cool experience.

but am I going to be in the right headspace having just hung out with people for eight hours? And then I'm going, so it's, it's somewhat about managing energy. It's about, you know, sort of funneling my focus towards where I'm going at the end of the day. Or if it's at the beginning of the day, like what my morning routine was like. So it's just kind of a process of warming up of putting together beforehand what I think is a talk that makes sense for that specific audience. And then I go into it very confident because I know, I don't know if, you know, it's exactly what the audience needs, but I know that I know what I'm talking about. So I know in this sort of contained way, my material works and my material is correct, right? And I know that there's going to be some people in the audience that that's going to resonate with.

I can't try to please everyone. I can't live and breathe on what the audience is doing in the moment because every audience is different. Particularly sports audiences. I was talking to John Gordon, who's an amazing author, who's done tons of stuff in sports. I was talking to him before I spoke to the Browns because he was actually speaking a couple days after me and had spoken to a number of other sports teams. He was like, look, they will not laugh. He was like, it doesn't matter what you say, the athletes will not laugh. he was like, but if you give them something they can use, they'll appreciate the experience.

And so, you know, having gone into, like, that allowed me to go, okay, so I just need to deliver the material because I know the material works. I'm not going to be hanging off of, you know, every punchline and waiting to see whether it resonates or not. I'm just going to go in, do what I got to do, and then be done. And then as soon as I'm done, I can sort of relax and go back to being a fan or you know sort of enjoying the experience yeah I love it man as always

thank you for doing this and sharing knowledge very appreciative where would you send my listeners to learn more about you online yeah so the book is everywhere books are sold it's called stillness is the key I'm at Ryan Holiday with one L

on pretty much every platform and then my website is Ryanholiday.net And if you're interested in the stoicism stuff we're talking about, I do a daily email about stoicism every single morning at daily stoic.com, which you can also sign up for. It's good stuff. I receive it every morning. A great reminder for those listening because it's, you can tell you, you guys don't mail it in.

And that's appreciative. It's useful. And that's what we're trying to do here as leaders. So, Ryan, I know we're going to continue the dialogue as we both progress. It's been great talking to you over the years. and let's keep it rolling, man. Awesome, thanks. Thanks, man.

I love the conversations I'm fortunate to have with Ryan Holiday. I find him to be such a thoughtful and thought-provoking leader. He forces me to question my beliefs, and I think that is really healthy, as we're all striving to be less wrong on a daily basis. A few other parts that really stuck out to me. The word, enough, and that delicate balance between being,

but also striving for growth and how to manage that. Then Michael Jordan and why using anger as fuel is misguided long term. And why instead we should try to prove ourselves and our supporters right as opposed to proving our doubters wrong. When we are able to prove them right, the feeling of gratitude and contentness and happiness is so much more powerful than when you're able to prove a doubter wrong because then you're just on to the next doubter

and constantly in a state of anger that's no way to live. And then the power of relationships. I love bringing up Ryan's wife because I've had the good fortune to hang out with them a few times to see how she keeps him humble and down to earth. And the tone of his voice always changes a bit when he's talking about Sam.

I thought that part was great. I wanted to say again, thank you for continuing to give me the opportunity to do what I love. I greatly appreciate it if you spread the word to a friend or two, perhaps one that has never listened to a podcast or hasn't listened to the Learning Leader show. Tell them to check this out and see if it could improve their life as a leader. I certainly think it can. Thank you once again.

I will talk with you next week. Can't wait. I want to let you know that we have opened up tickets for our once a year personal excellence workshop. We did this last year and received incredible reviews, so we wanted to do. do it again this year, but make it even better. In addition to the topics that I personally teach on, I have reached out to the subject domain experts within my network to be with us in the room and share their expertise. Things like how to harness your personal and professional flywheel to build an incredible

career. Secrets from a professional keynote speaking coach. How to become a learning machine. How to utilize the mindset of a professional athlete in the business world and so much more. This workshop is ideal for you if you want to interact with intellectually curious and interesting people. If you want to accelerate your personal and professional growth, if you have an open mind and are not afraid to be challenged. And if you are currently leading a team or have a desire to at some point in your future. For more details, go to ryanhawk.

dot me. This event is intentionally kept small so the experience is intimate, engaging, and interactive. For more details and to get your ticket, go to Ryanhawk.me. All right. Thanks, man. I really appreciate it. It's awesome stuff, especially not necessarily knowing where it's going to go. And I didn't fully, I mean, I have a lot of notes, but I like touching on kind of the personal aspects of it, too. I think that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, no, no, no, no, that's great. Sometimes you do these and you're like, I've had this exact conversation like 500 times. Yeah. And I've never had this one. So I really appreciate it. Awesome, man. Well, um...

When's the book coming out? January. Are you excited? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, my part's pretty much done. Uh, you know, we're like final edits now. Um, but, um, yeah, I'm really excited to, to get it out there. I appreciate your kind of help. You've, you've, you've impacted more than you probably even realized because you've helped without even thinking and I appreciate that man it means a lot to me and it's made a difference well look a heads up I would give you so if you're still doing the final edits you're you're approaching but you will soon enter what I think is the hardest part of the whole process not in terms of work just like psychologically most difficult because as soon as you finish then like you really

finish finish the book is done so it no longer it no longer occupies any the part of your brain where you're like, oh, I'm improving this. I'm chipping away at it. It's in the hands of the editor. You know, my friends are giving notes. Like, I'm thinking about it. And then there's a long period. So let's say, you know, the end of this month or next month you're done. That still gives you three or four months where you can't do anything, but also you don't know you haven't, you're not getting anything back from it yet. And so that's the period where you got to, you got to find either the next book to throw yourself into, you throw yourself totally into writing articles, into relationship building, whatever it is, because like you will go crazy.

You know what I mean? I'm kind of starting. It's like almost starting right now. And I thought about, I actually brought us to my wife. We had a long drive home from vacation yesterday. And I said, Ryan Holiday always has the next one going as the previous one's coming out. And now I know why. I told her, like, and I'm trying to think of what is the next idea.

I get, because I thought, that's crazy talk. What's he talking about? Now I get it because I'm already thinking, well, I want to, there's like changes I may want to make and I basically can't. And then I have other ideas, but is it an idea for a book? Probably not, not big enough there. So I'm like in that in-between stage of these little mini ideas and maybe tweaks, but now the tweaks are kind of over.

So it's, it is a challenge, man. Like, how do you, do you just follow your curiosity or how do you figure out the next big idea that's big enough for a book? Yeah, you know, you talk to your agent about it. Maybe you test it with your audience here or there. You see what people are working, what people are responding to. But it's like, because you do all this work, but, you know, you're being rewarded by the work you're seeing the book get better every day. Well, that stops. But you're not yet hearing from fans or getting sales.

numbers or even really hearing from the publisher like, hey, it's working, right? So this kind of can be a dark period. And so you want to focus on some productive use of that energy or it ends up just like the mind just sort of like eats itself. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate it, man. Like I said, I mean, I could talk to all day.

The feedback, I moved around stories and structure. I was in Hilton Head when we talked on the phone. I remember it vividly and I changed some things and it made it better. And that's, it's cool when, you know, when there are people out there who help and they don't even probably think of it, they just do it. And I think that's neat. And I try to do this. I try to do the same for other people because of guys like you. So thank you, man. Oh, man. Well, good luck. And, yeah, send me one as soon as you get them. I will. I will. All right, man. Okay. Bye. See you.