The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk - 335: Deconstructing The Art & Science Of Public Speaking With Jay Acunzo

Episode Date: October 23, 2019

The Learning Leader Show With Ryan Hawk Text LEARNERS to 44222 Full show notes can be found at www.LearningLeader.com Episode #335: Deconstructing The Art & Science Of Public Speaking With Jay Acunzo This is another bonus episode with my friend, Jay Acunzo.  We deconstruct the art and science of public speaking in this bonus episode. "I'm trying to help you see something different that fundamentally changes your work for the better." Notes: The goal: Help your audience see something different that fundamentally changes their work for the better. Everything I'm doing (when speaking) is helping you get from where you're at to where you want to be. How to put a talk together: Prompt driven -- Anticipate the questions that will be asked and answer them. The coaching of Andrew Davis for Jay... "He's been really instrumental in helping me build a speaking business "The Dialog Outline" -- You break up a talk you're giving into it's component pieces making it a modular talk. "You're sharing the things others need to hear at the right moment they need to hear it... So they're anticipating what comes next..." Put yourself in situations to "talk out your thoughts" to generate ideas... "Learn through speaking."  Process to prepare: The value of rehearsal -- Is it needed?  How much? Memorization vs. knowing your content cold → How to not sound like a robot, but still remember what to say? Visual aids (PowerPoint, Keynote) -- "If I need the slides, I'm not ready." - Jay.  Slides should be use to reinforce the message.  You should never need to look at them.  They are there to be additive to your message for your audience.   The 30 seconds before going on stage?  The optimal self talk... Interesting to hear the dramatic difference between Jay's approach and mine... Get emotionally cross-faded.  "Wow, I get to do this.  This is so cool." (The words Jay says to himself the instant before he goes on stage."  And then... "Watch this." Assuring people that "I'm going to have some serious fun." "Get ready... I'm about to put on a show." -- Use your excitement and confidence to serve the audience. How to start a speech:  What to do and what NOT to do: The first part of the speech is the shared goal - "What does everyone in the room want?" "The Vanguard." - The front line you send out to begin the attack... Do NOT start by saying, "I'm so excited to be here."  Of course you're excited.  Don't waste that time.  It's too important to wander into the speech. Speaking Framework: (Mine: story → science → practical application) Story -- People remember stories Science -- Empirical evidence/data to support the story Application -- This is what it means for YOU Storytelling -- How to become a better storyteller?  Great storytellers can rule the world... Give a "feature story" -- And then reveal your hidden truth. And then break it down into a methodology. Engaging the audience - some speakers walk in the crowd, some ask questions regularly… The optimal ways to engage the audience The element of surprise -- How to create 'moments' for the audience (surprise, 'aha' etc)?  How to ensure you are enlightening them and not just regurgitating stuff they already know... The keys to Q & A and why it should never be the last thing you do on stage... Film the audience to see their reaction to your message... Study that to see what hits. How to add humor appropriately Coaching/feedback -- The intentional actions taken to ensure improvement.  Why you should have a coach.  Who is your kitchen cabinet? For corporate world mid-level managers who have to do QBR's (quarterly business reviews) -- How can they make those more exciting?  (Most are dreadfully boring full of random stats, charts, bar graphs, etc) Study the 'intentionality' of stand up comedians.  Everything you say is for a specific reason. Be thoughtful and intentional with your actions. Persuasive presentations have logos, ethos, and pathos (from Talk Like TED) Logos - Backing up your argument with data Ethos - Credibility of the speaker  Pathos - Establish an emotional connection

Welcome to the Learning Leaders Show presented by Brixie and Meyer. I am Ryan Hawk. Thanks so much for being here. Text learners to 44222 in order to join tens of thousands of learning leaders from all over the world. Text learners to 44222. This is another bonus episode with my friend Jay Akunzo. Jay is going to be a regular recurring guest where we will pick a specific topic and then go deep in that area.

And for today, it's about public speaking. Specifically, this is intended to help you become better at standing in front of a room, any group of people, whether it's a wedding toast, a quarterly business review at work, or if you desire to be a professional speaker, and help you be a more effective communicator. This is not just for professional speakers, but we do get into some of the business of being a speaker. So some of the topics that we are going to cover. The aspect of rehearsal, how much and why it's important. The use of PowerPoint and visuals, why you should or should not do this and the proper way to do it.

Then the final prep before going on stage, what is the mindset you should have as you walk on stage? You'll notice that Jay and I have two completely different ways that we go about this. and I think they both could be helpful for you. Then storytelling, how we understand to use stories to make us more compelling and persuasive. Then creating surprise moments that, ah, within your audience, we talk about how to do that. And then using humor, when to mix this in, how to tell jokes,

especially if you're not a stand-up comedian, but learning from stand-ups to be better at this. We talk about this and so much more on this bonus episode with my friend, Jay Akunzo. The difference between the big keynote where you're on the stage and you're preaching hard for an hour, right? Where there's no real interaction. It's just you talking.

You being animated, using your hands, right? Just how you are versus the breakout, which everybody probably needs to do this at work, whereas it's you're bringing up topics, sharing stories. And then you want the audience to engage and to talk. and to answer questions, and then you have to be agile in the moment and able to respond and add in that key point to help further the dialogue. What's your process to get good at that second part, the breakout part where it's engaging, talking with the audience, more workshoppy type of a talk? So a couple things.

So one, I only do keynotes, right? So I don't do breakouts or workshops or things like that for my business. Now, I have to. So you used to and you don't anymore? Correct. Got you. Okay. But I will say this.

What most of us assume we have to be to command expertise on a stage and trust and all that good stuff, attention, is we have to be an expert. But I kind of feel like this is like saying you have to be good at basketball to be in the NBA. Of course. But it's table stakes. So it's not about out-experting somebody else. I think the difference between an engaging talk, something that sticks with you and actually has impact, not just in the notebook because you're at the event and you're feeling like learning that day as an attendee, but in their lives, in their work long after you as the speaker are gone,

I think the difference is instead of trying to be an expert, you're really good at acting like an investigator. You look at things that people assume and you ask really deep questions and then you go find out through research, secondhand, firsthand, it doesn't matter. Like experts love having answers and just handing them to you. Here it is. Just do it. But I think investigators love asking questions and then crucially when that investigation is packaged as a talk, essentially what you're doing is you're leading people from the status quo that they're experiencing all the way to a different hidden truth that you want them to realize and how to execute on that. And it has to click in their minds. Like the light bulb has to go off. So whereas if I'm giving a talk about how to make a great

podcast, I'm basically just acting like a blog post that's standing in front of you. And I think it's in some ways better to have a dialogue with the audience because what can't you get from a blog post is conversation so much as when you give a breakout. But if I'm giving a keynote, I'm talking about how to create content in an era of attention scarcity, how to hold attention. And I might say, oh, by the way, blogging or a podcast is a great way to do that. But really what I'm trying to do is help you see something different that fundamentally changes your work for the better. And so that's, to me, that's useful in a breakout too. Because if all you're doing is giving a list of steps, just send an email, right? Just send me the blog post or, you know, why am I looking at you speaking?

What is that medium uniquely suited for? And I think it's that investigative style. It's like this conversation is going in this direction that's exciting and everything I'm doing gets you from where you're at to where I want you to be. And an expert doesn't do that. Expert just says, here's the answer. I am the expert, right? Tell me the answer. Oh, expert. Please, I just don't think that that's something people want to listen to necessarily. I don't think it makes a good speaker. That makes me think of how I've put together some of my talk. There are a few where, like, for example, I went and spoke at a few high schools and they'd say,

hey, we'd really love for you to answer these questions. So they were the ones kind of investigating asking me to answer. And so sometimes I'd even put their questions up on the screen and then have a pre kind of created Q&A, but out of the process of me going through questions, I was able to formulate parts of that particular talk, which then bled into other talks because I got the stories out of them to help illustrate the example I wanted to share based upon their questions. So I always say I'm a prompt-driven writer. So when I was writing my book, I sat in a room with a writing coach, and part of his job,

in addition to editing, was to throw prompt. at me and ask me what I thought and then I would write. And sometimes we do it out loud and we record it and then I would get the transcripts and then write off of the transcripts. And I thought I'm a prompt driven speaker, a prompt driven writer. Is that, that's kind of like my investigative approach, I think, to building this. And I'm kind of thinking out loud here, Jay, as you could probably guess. But that's for me, really helpful.

And I'm curious for you, how have you put talks to? together. Is that what you're trying to do is think of the questions like an investigator and then answering them during the course of the keynote? In a sense, yeah. So I worked under an amazing keynote speaker. I think he's one of the best living speakers right now. And his name is Andrew Davis. And I got very lucky. I met him in Boston and we hit it off. And he helped mentor me and help massage my speech with me. And he was really instrumental in getting me to the point where I have a speaking business. And I can be proactive about how to build it. So he understands the craft of the speech and also the business. Again, his name is Andrew Davis. We work together, and I still use

this for new talks that I develop, on something called a dialogue outline. So a dialogue outline is basically you're trying to break up a talk you're giving or a presentation you're making, again, on a stage or in a conference room or whatever, into its component pieces, making it that modular talk. So then you're sharing the things others need to hear at the right moment they need to hear it. So they're almost anticipating what comes next. So you get that beautiful reaction at the very end where they're like, yes, of course, I cannot wait for this to impact my life and business, right? Whereas a lot of people, if they're two in the clouds, you get lost, and they're confused about what you're saying or that feels whimsical and not practical. Or

on the flip side, you're too practical. You're almost like leaping too much of the tactics. So the dialogue outline is something that lets you walk stage by stage through. I think it's something like six or seven pieces of a speech, which I'm happy to share, but I kind of, I have essentially a template that describes the blocks of each speech, and that's how I write it. Can you give an example? Yeah. When we talk about a keynote, we're talking fundamentally about revealing some kind of solution you hadn't considered, something that once you reveal it, it's called the hidden truth. Once you reveal the hidden truth, people are like, ah, this makes so much sense, right? But then they're going to have this natural question, which is like, so what does this

actually look like? Like, before you break down how I can do that, can you just show me an example. So that's an example of like the dialogue outline tells you, at this part, reveal your hidden truth. But then you have to give a feature story that applies to everybody in the room just so they see what you're talking about. And then after that, you might break it down into a methodology, but don't leap too fast to the methodology because it still needs to click. They get it in theory. maybe it's a reminder of something or it's a new way of thinking. There's some skeptics in the room, some believers, but either way, they're asking, tell me more about what this looks like.

I might want this. So now give them a story, right? So knowing that, it's a dialogue with the audience in a sense, enables you to hit every beat you need so that by the end, again, you get that hopefully great ovation, but certainly that light bulb moment in their brains and lightning strike in their chest. what about the very beginning the very first words out of your mouth when you get on stage what what is your framework around literally the first words out of your mouth when you get on stage and how this could apply to people who speaking whether they're pros or not so the first section of my speech is

called the shared goal and it's basically what does everybody in the room want in can i describe it in theory while i'm preparing in one sentence to me it's not me thinking about all i'm talking about these five things. Now, I'm helping with one massive problem. One. So what's the shared goal we have? And so here's a really easy example. Right now I'm giving a speech called Creativity Impossible, which is basically how do you make innovation a habit instead of a Hail Mary? How do we make it consistent? Just the way we operate, we lead to innovative breakthroughs all the time. We don't have to change how we operate or jump in a room to brainstorm. Okay. The shared goal is we want to make this stuff a consistent way of operating because we want to shape the trajectory of the line,

manufacture one-off spikes, peaks, and valleys. All right. Well, maybe I can't just get up there and say what I said to you. So the very first words out of my mouth are part of something called the Vanguard. So the Vanguard is something I learned from another speaker named Marcus Sheridan, a big sales guy, marketing guy too. Awesome. Awesome. Marcus Sheridan, the sales lion is his old business.

And so Marcus uses something called the Vanguard. Now, in the military, the Vanguard is that front line you send out sort of begin the attack. So I might say something, I've said any number of things. I've said, on a scale of zero to 10, who here aspires to be a five? I get some chuckles and people are like, you know, what the hell is going on here? Of course, like, we all want to be a 10. So why is so much of our work ending up as a five? My new speech, I lead with saying like, look, I know it's totally cliche, but I'm a sucker

for quotes about creativity. And then I give you a few of the quotes that inspire me. and I make a joke about how while I'm inspired, what ends up happening, reality hits me. And then I look at that stuff and I'm like, how do we do all this stuff? Right. And so that like kind of softens the intro. But the most important thing, no matter how you start, no matter what Vanguard you use, is you don't get up there and say, I'm excited to be here. Because no shit Sherlock.

Like it's a waste of words, a waste of time. It doesn't grip people. Why are you saying I'm excited to be here? It's just filler. it's a nervous tick, don't say it. It's essentially like saying, I'm standing in front of you now. Like, yeah, no kidding. Say something worthy. Grip them.

It's a huge opportunity for speakers, whether you're on a stage or not. Recently, I think the one that I sent to you, I did not plan on doing this. I just happened to say it. I got on stage and I say like, I realize I'm the only thing in between you and an open bar. And I thought, wait, I don't know if that was a good thing. I thought it would be like funny in the moment. I'm like, what did I do that? It turned out.

You're passing the buck. We're like, yeah, there's something else you're thinking about. No, you want to be the thing that they're thinking about. I know. I know. I was like, eh, you know, I kept it moving, but I remember saying that thinking, uh, every once in a while immediately you say something like, why did I do that? And then you just got to keep going and like say, okay, I made a bad pass.

Now it's got to throw the next one. I have a question for you, Ryan. So we talked about this anticipatory feeling of like, I'm excited to get up there. I just want to start saying things and not worry, not think about starting. I want to start. It's like this excitement that we feel. Do you have any like mental things that you do to prepare to give a big presentation? Like I think this would be useful for everybody listening. Well, in addition to obviously all the reps leading up to that, which we've already established how important that is. I am really big on thinking about what you do right before you go on stage. And I'm actually not, I went on a trip with my family where part of the trip was I was giving a keynote. That's why I was able to take my family actually. The kind of the few hours before the speech, my wife knows me well enough now. Like, we have to leave him alone. I'm not going to be the most pleasant person to be around because it's, it's like that game mode where I want to get, I even ask her, I go, is there going to be a day where I'm actually going to be

okay to be around before those big moments? And she was, you know, she's, you know, super great and said, you know, hey, we, I get it. Like, I get it. Like, you, this is, you take it so serious that you're not, you need to just be by yourself before you're speaking. So like, I don't, love having like have dinner with the people sometimes I realize it's part of it but I need those few moments but as I'm looking out at the people in the crowd I revert back to the to the stuff to the advice my dad told me that I've told you before Jay is he said you know for this brief moment you got to throw the humility out and think that I am the baddest dude in this room and I am here to serve and I have all of the ability and capabilities to serve these people

and I have a message to share and it's extremely important. it's going to change their life, literally saying those things, it's going to change their life as long as I give everything I've got to it. And when it's over, I'm going to be exhausted. And I go up and in a way, I have to get out from any type of modesty or humility and get a little bit of a, like Todd Herman and I talked about the alter ego of being cocky and borderline push myself because sometimes I have to overdo it in order to share my voice and share what I believe.

And so there are those moments before where it is serious. It is me using some of that nervous, anticipatory feeling to talk myself into being like over emotive because I know if I try to go overboard, that will probably put me at the right level because I'm not naturally a ham. I'm not naturally someone who wants to be on stage. I have to force myself to do it. And the reason that I do it is because. One, I think it's always healthy to live on the edge of your current competency and comfort zones.

So that's part of it. And two, you know, people are asking. And I feel like it's part of my responsibility. And it is now a business. So all those things go into it. And then the feeling I get though, and I love to hear what you feel, the feeling I get when I get done. And especially when you have the line of people that are coming to, you know, talk to you, shake your hand and say like, oh, this was great.

Can we, you know, talk? How good is that, man? Like, how good is that? And these people are, they're usually successful leaders within great companies. And they're coming to you. And normally it'd be like, I thought I'd be going to them, you know? And so you get these, that type of feeling. It's, it's like a drug that I'm addicted to and I want more and more.

And I think about that before I go on stage two. And so all those things are kind of swirling in my head. And that's probably why I'm not the most enjoyable. Like, I'm not mean, but I just need to be quiet. and be by myself. And I like to write. You and I could not be more different when it comes to the free speech thing. I had a feeling this might be the case.

And so I'm kind of glad because you're naturally extroverted, I would imagine. And I'm naturally introverted. And I think that's another good thing because we can relate to basically everybody listening because there are some who are naturally introverted and some that are naturally extroverted. So how about you? Yeah. I have a friend who's a great, great keynote speaker, amazing writer, also from the market. industry originally. Her name's Anne Handley. And she's, she's an introvert. And she says that once

she gives a big speech, she has to D people for a moment. So she needs to go back to her room or just kind of draw that energy again, as introverts do from silence. I want to talk to people before I'm up there, while I'm up there, and after I'm up there. Like, I can't get enough. And so a good example is I was just in Cleveland at a big event. And I, again, I hate the waiting period. I just want to start. So I kind of start a little bit. Like I'm just milling around the front of the room. I thank people for sitting in the front. This doesn't work for stages where you're coming out from behind the stage.

But I like to talk to people in the front row. Thank you for sitting in the front, like front row gang. Oh, I kind of like that. Yeah, I get to know people and I get to know where they're from. And sometimes I do have bits in my keynote where I'm actually saying something to people in the audience. and I get to use their names once I actually know who they are. Or just make eye contact and little knowing smiles or moments. It just feels good for me intrinsically, but I think it enhances the experience,

not just for the people in the front, but for everybody, I hope. So my preparation process or the little mental heuristic I use, which I hope can help people before they have to present anything is, I call it, I have to get emotionally crossfaded. I have to like, there's like an upper and a downer. I have to say to myself, wow, I get to do this. This is so cool.

I love this, like you said, there's this addictive nature of making people laugh or think or feel. I love that. That's why I love creating narrative style podcasts and documentaries. And then immediately after that, I think to myself,

watch this. Because I kind of bring myself back up a little bit, it's a little knowing smile to nobody in particular. And I'm like, you know, kind of assuring people, I'm going to have some serious fun right now. Because my speeches are, there are a lot of moments of humor.

There are a lot of moments of, you know, this is a hard bit to do, if not for the rehearsal, because it's fast-paced and it involves a lot. And, you know, I'm trying to amp myself up a little bit without getting so excited because I'm excitable that I come across as either nervous or rambling or I kind of go too fast, which has been a problem historically like when I first started speaking. So I want to put myself in control. So I want to get that middle ground. I get to do this.

wow, I feel so humble. This is awesome. It really is this honor. And also, watch this. Like, I'm about to do my thing here. Yes, let's do it. You know, if there's a musical track that plays you want, even better. You have built confidence, right?

You've built serious level of confidence by, I think having the attitude of, hey, hey, hey, tape, you're a tap. And get ready, man. Watch this. Like, if one of your buddies was there, get ready to, I'm about to put on a show, that type of mentality. Yeah, it's a show. As someone who only does keynotes, you get hired to be entertaining, enjoyable, and useful and inspirational and, like, apply to their work. And if you don't have the entertainment value, it's a really tough sell.

And I mean that literally. It's hard to sell yourself as a speaker. It's hard to generate leads. I'm one of those weird speakers that I started by doing small talks for small fees infrequently. But the goal was, in that room, can I generate interest in me continuing to speak? And I've met others who they write the big book and then they fall back into speaking. So they have the notoriety in the air game. And my mentors early on were all the former.

They were all like, they now have the book. And eventually I did write a book about a year and a half into my speaking career. But it was all about in the room, am I earning my way to the next talk? And the only way I could do that was to treat this talk like it was the place to earn that. What is your thoughts on visual aids? PowerPoint, keynote, whatever program. you decide to use to have the visual representation and or words behind you, beside you, with you, when you're giving a talk.

So two thoughts. The quick one is, if I need the slides, I'm not ready. I've actually had speeches where I have, say, 10 minutes of runtime left and the slides, the tech stops working and I have to do it from memory, really. Funny story, that was actually in Lambo Field, the Green Bay Packers home where that happened to me. Yeah, they had a great event out there called. experience inbound, which is a marketing event. And they have a two-day event. It's at Brewer's Stadium, Miller Park. And then they go up to Green Bay from Milwaukee and you do it at Lambeau Field.

It's not on the field, but we got to tour it, which was awesome. So, but anyway, so that is to me, the sign that I'm ready. I know my stuff. I don't need the slides. But I do have a ton. The Seth Godinish 300 slides in 20 minutes or something in between? It's going to alarm people when I say it out loud. But I want to. to give people the actual truth here. So I'm literally pulling up my keynote right now. I do it in PowerPoint. And I have, say, a 45-minute talk has 116 slides. It's a dance. It's not what I'm saying verbatim, although sometimes for an impact statement it might be, because people can take photos and share it out. But it's methodologies, it's supporting imagery for stories I'm doing. I like to have,

again, a lot of humor. So there's like this interplay between me and the slides. And this year, I've actually started using audio and video a whole lot more, which is really nice because I think it surprises people in a good way where you know, you weren't expecting somebody who I'm telling the story of to actually speak to you in the room and they do or or what have you. So it's, to me, it's this nice little dance where the slides are interwoven with what I'm saying. I'm not leaning against them like a crutch, nor are they kind of like riddled with text and it's an eye chart. So how about you? What's your approach there? So, you know, there's a lot, there's a lot written about this now if you study it and it's almost all negative and when like don't you you know you don't shouldn't

need PowerPoint or PowerPoint and what I what I would argue is that the reason that there's so much negativity around it is because almost everybody uses it wrong. I think the the tool I'm with you like you have to know your stuff cold you got to be able to go give like I'm giving like a lunch talk for free coming up next week with no computer no decks where I'm going to stand up and they're saying hey, you got 30 minutes. So it's like normally I do 60. So I go, okay, how do I make this 30? So there would be no deck.

There'll be none of that. I have to go up and just give a talk, no notes. And I've done that so I'm comfortable and I'll make sure I'm ready to roll. But when it's a big stage keynote, I think it can be so powerful to add the visual representation of what you're saying to help illustrate your stories to add elements. I've even started over the past year. I bring an artist with me when I can who draws my speech in addition to my visual of the PowerPoint, me talking, and then I have an artist literally drawing it real time. It is very cool.

It also is a great kind of giveaway at the end by I usually give it to the company that I'm speaking to and they can hang it up wherever they want. It's a big, big, like, billboard for me. But it's good for them because they can remember it too. I think when done right, and I have certainly have helped putting these together, when done, right, having the visual imagery to support, not lead, but to support what you're saying and the story you're telling or the science you're sharing or the practical application. In a supporting manner, it is awesome. And so when I hear that you have the Godinish, you know, 116 slides in 40 minutes,

the corporate life people who are used to seeing the I-chart type PowerPoints with a bunch of words and bullet points. And the speaker goes, hey, this is kind of small. It's hard to see, you know, which is one of the worst things ever,

by the way to say as a speaker. Ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, never apologize for anything, right. For any of it. And if it is, it's your fault. Fix it ahead of time. Like, you can't see it.

First of all, don't put those many words ever on a slide. There's never a slide that needs that many words. You got to know your stuff better to where you put a picture in there. Use a quote every once while,

certainly, but a slide where you can't read it because of that, that's just one of the, maybe we should have a little section where if there's any like extreme no-noes like having a slide with too many words. Yeah, that's one of them. But as far as, maybe we can do that right now, but as far as the visual, I love what the power of how you can really bring it home with visual imagery.

And if you're not certain how to do that, you know, get help. Like ask for help from someone who you know has skill at that. That's what I do. I put together every talk with a couple of people. One in my speaking coach, who's a former prosecutor, and he's, a master at putting these together. And then my wife is an incredible designer and she knows how to help me share the right image to go along with it. But we workshop this to death, meaning I'm at home or I'm with a coach. And man, how many times I've put together slides that I've never used

because they weren't quite good enough. So I think just... How many, like, when you have all those slides, like how many times... This goes for any presentation where there's slides, I suppose, but how many times have you started to craft a new presentation and you're like a few slides in and you realize you shouldn't be touching slides yet like that's one of my Achilles heel I love to design the experience part of it yeah the jokes the stories the you know whatever and so what plagues me and that's why the dialogue outline is so helpful is I get to remind myself because I'm like oh the outline that I should be writing this first even if it's just placeholders and I'm not writing it verbatim before I design any slides so how like would

because you use visuals, is that something you struggle with to at all? Sometimes I literally type on the slide and I'll slap like a low grade image knowing I'm going to fix it. So the first ever looking deck looks, well, it looks awful, but it doesn't matter. It's just like my template to get it started and then I'll go back and fix it. And then we might obviously, we rearrange. I remember one of the times my coach said, why do you tell that? story like in the middle, you should open with that. And the reason the reasoning was because of without getting too much into it, just basically because of the primacy and recency,

meaning you have all of their attention open, boom, immediately with this compelling story and then go into it. And then you work on some of the structure and other things or, or don't, you know, don't, don't like reintroduce yourself. I've had this one issue early when I was speaking where let's say the person who was introducing me struggled, which happens a lot. lot, as you know, and maybe we should talk about that, but they struggled to do it, or they like even, they misread the paragraph you gave them, or they just were really nervous and they're doing a good job. So you feel like, oh, I have to reintroduce myself. Another terrible way to start, which I've definitely done too many times. There's a quick solution for that, too.

And again, a lot of people who are working in corporations and leading teams and are driven, they'll end up going to a conference and they're a track speaker, the breakout speaker. And at a big conference, especially, you tend to have volunteers. sponsors send a marketer. And so somebody introducing you is kind of not a performer and they're just reading the bio. So it sucks the wind out of the room. Maybe the bio came from LinkedIn.

It's way too long or whatever. So literally what I have both on my website and I send it to people before every speech is an introduction script, which is written intentionally to be read out loud, which is a different type of writing than something that's nice to read on a screen. And it's short. It has the phonetic pronunciation of my name up top. and it sets the tone for what I'll be talking about. So it's a little, almost like a mini blurb, if you will,

and it talks up front about here's the problem we face. Here's how we, you know, this is an issue. And that's why I'm introducing to you. Our next speaker, Jay Akunzo, bio blurb really quick, very, very short. Like a couple of things I've done, what I do now, a couple of, you know, places I've appeared in the media, for example, are credibility builders. And then I revisit the problem at the end.

And it's out. It's 60 seconds to read. and it's broken up one line at a time with short sentences. So like giving that to somebody, it doesn't actually solve the problem all the way because those people aren't necessarily charming and energetic about it or maybe they read it weird, but you can get closer to it being like a really good announcement to bring you on and then you don't have to save the room. Another quick off of that, if you ever find yourself in the role of announcing somebody, you take some time to really get ready.

Like take some time to do a good job, as my dad would say, lift them to the stage. Try your best to, you know, you don't have to be perfect, but take some time to really think about it, rehearse a little bit. And there's a difference between a good intro and one that's not so good. Like, either way, we have to be a pro. We're going to do our thing. But I think, but do your best. If you find yourself in that role, try to, you know, honor the speaker by being ready. Speaking of all this, Jay, are there a few other no-nows or just immediate things?

You're like, hey, whether you're a pro or not, or you're just doing this at work, you're doing this for your team that you're leading. your Monday meetings. Are there any other things that you would say, just don't do this? The first one on that list is have slides with a bunch of words. Regardless. And there are some people listening like, hey, Ryan, you don't understand. I have to give these quarterly business reviews. And when you have a QBR, they have to have all these things because that's our format.

That's what we have to follow. And I would just challenge you and say, that's not true. Because I've done those things and I've worked with people to make those actually entertaining and make them doable in corporate America. You can do it if you're willing to work a little bit extra to do it. You don't have to just put a bunch of graphs and a thousand words on a slide. It's possible. What are some other things, Jay, you would share that are standard that seem to happen a lot, but you shouldn't do it.

Yeah, I love that we're doing this because I was starting to feel myself a little bit too much. I need to bring myself back down because I've messed up more times than I care to admit. Yeah, these are learned because we've made these mistakes. We've done it all the time. Yeah. So early on, I would have like both at the very beginning of my time. talk and then somewhere in the middle where I was about to introduce the big idea or maybe had but hadn't shared a methodology yet. Like if there was a lot of meat to come and I knew it,

I would basically say too many times things like, so what we're going to talk about today, so what I'm here to tell you, or so what we'll cover, or so what you'll see is, and that is one of the worst verbal tics ever because you're basically saying what I'm about to say is this. So if you're either trying to actually say it, just say it, or if you're trying to tease something, make what you're saying now lead logically to it so that you don't have to tease it. Like, it's coming later, right? So don't push off and say it's a weird tick. A lot of us have super guilty early in my career here. Don't do that. Like I'm about to talk about it. We're going to go over today. No, just start and continue, have a flow. All right, what's one of years?

Well, I thought you were going to go on a list, man. Oh, you want me to do more? I can keep looking back at young, young chairfaced me. Do you do it? Yeah. Do you like? What about Jay from a month ago? Are we cured? No. So here's a really good example. When you have a keynote business, it's very much you have the talk. Like you have a program people buy.

And yes, you change it and customize it. And then over time, you're adding and tweaking and evolving it, hopefully because you see what works and what doesn't. Again, back to the stand-up idea. But I got so sick of my own. performance, probably a year ago. I noticed that I was no longer having fun in the places where I needed to have fun for them to be laughing and open. It's very similar to being a host. If you feel stayed, they're going to be bored. If you feel rigid, they're going to give you some kind of rigid

energy back or check their phones or whatever. So I found myself, I'd done the stories so much that I stopped having fun with them. I stopped remembering why I was doing it. Or I stopped trying to change them and innovate and tweak it. And so I got back to that and actually the video that you watched before we talked about speaking today was an example of, I think me just letting loose and having fun and enjoying the room. And I'll give you an example. There's there's a moment where I say something really goofy and the audience laughs and I kind of move to the side and I horizontally draw my hand out like I'm writing something. And I go, trademark. And I got a secondary laugh. And I wasn't doing that because I wasn't mindful of the room. I was just on autopilot for,

say, three or four speeches for, you know, maybe the end of last year. And so I've gotten kind of back that, that's spark, I guess. So when you're doing something a lot, you should be rehearsing it a lot. You should be getting almost sick of it, but make sure that allows you to then be mindful in the room. That's definitely one. I threw out one of the bits because I was tired of telling it. I was like, I'm just tired of this. And I had somebody who would see me speak like six months prior and then saw me again. He said, hey, it was good. But why didn't you tell your best story?

I said, what do you mean? And he was going through. I go, I'm just tired of it, man. He goes, no, you can't be tired of it. It's your bitch. It's like my dad says, you got to play the hits. And so if you got a hit, play it with all the energy. When you see your favorite band play the song that they've played a million times,

they know they got to play the hits and they got to play it with energy. So I think that's a good one. One more for me to add to this. And I'll be curious to see what you think about this. I don't think it's a good idea to end with Q&A. I want to be in control with how my performance ends. I want the ending to be something that I have thought about, something that I have rehearsed, something that I've said, something that I've done.

So I do think Q&A is very important to have and can be really cool, because you can get, you can sometimes find new bits based upon their questions in real time. And I think real pros are able to do Q&A extremely well. But don't say, okay, one more question. And then they ask a question and maybe it's a dud. And you answer it. And then all of a sudden, you're done. And it's like there's a little murmurs and kind of like the, the applause to say, oh, yeah, good, good job.

And then you're kind of done. And you end with a dud. So if the last question is a dud or even if the last question, great, still save time for your 90 second or two minutes to really close with a strong finish, to give yourself the best chance to end on a high note because it's really important. People remember the beginning. People remember the end. And so if you're going to do Q&A, that's cool.

And I think it's great if you can. However, don't make that be the very last thing you do. Make sure that you have your closing minute or two so that it ends. with your specific bit that you've prepared? I love that. I think a couple thoughts. One is when a corporation or an event organizer hires me, I'm a partner in trying to create a great program.

And so I have a piece of that program that I own, but I want to know the theme of the event and what people are struggling with and let's set up a call and let me stay afterwards to mingle or before or both of travel allows. And so that idea of like you're a partner, you're serving the client. you're also serving the attendees. And if you both the client and the speaker serve the attendees first and foremost, everybody wins, by the way.

That, I think, prevents a good keynote speaker from wanting to take Q&A. Because what ends up happening is if you're really truly giving a keynote where it's really fundamental, it's an important problem, it's a new way of thinking about it and a methodology that they can enact,

it's going to be really hard for them to have questions in the moment. Or if they have questions, they're going to be so specific and should be about their business and the application of what you just said, that you're going to want to go deep with them. And that's not a, so Q&A to the general audience,

that's not a good forum for it. So what I tell people is, you know, both because I want to end strong and create that feeling and impact and also because of the nature of what I speak to, the Q&A that really helps people is at the stage side, at the back of the room, out near the coffee, at happy hour that night.

And it's the ability to have a conversation. Let's not do Q&A. Let's have conversations. So that's the way I phrase it. And then I would tack on another no-no while we're talking about ending. So many speakers have no plan for how they end. So they kind of just crap out on you. They're like, okay, that's my time.

Thanks. They like shrug and it sucks all the energy out of the room. And so there's a really easy way to not do that. And there's other ways to end. But it's sort of revisiting the key beats, right? So if you think about, so if we share this goal, and this is how we're normally trying to solve it. but all these problems keep cropping up with that status quo. We have to remember this hidden truth that we just talked about, right?

Do this part of the framework. Do that part of the framework. Do this part of the framework. And remember this punchy line. Thank you so much. Right. And so there's the meta framework coming out there where I can just sort of summarize in a light way and rev you up again.

There's other ways that I've ended before. But ending is so hard. But the easiest way to just keep the momentum going is, is actually have a plan and don't just kind of shrug and say, okay, I'm out. Thanks. Yeah. Much easier said than done, but I can tell you is it makes a big difference. Let's talk about a few other things that I think could be applicable to anybody. Storytelling. What is your, let me think of how to phrase this question, Jay, but what advice do you give to the person who needs to, let's just use the example of the quarterly business review because I

did those. And oftentimes there are just terrible, boring. And I don't think they need to be. I think you should strive to not make those boring. And you can use storytelling here. You can use this anywhere. But storytelling is a powerful way to share your message or what you want. What is your mindset towards putting stories within your talk and then how to effectively tell those stories? So my talks contain anywhere between four and eight stories. And sometimes one of those has to do with me. Mostly it's all other stories I've dug up. And the way I like to come at it is if you don't identify with the story or you're leaping too far ahead into details such that they don't feel a kinship, you've lost them.

So this is one reason why when you're talking about being more innovative and then you talk about Apple, you're going to lose a lot of people, right? Like there's a very cliche number of companies or examples that kind of like it just, it's rinse and repeat too many times and too many speeches. It's the weird things, the observations of the world, the companies you didn't know existed. But most importantly, it's the establishing the stakes. Who is this person? Why do I care about them? And I do tell stories about people. You won't catch me telling a story about a logo

because what's behind the logo is what we actually want to do is we want to dig into the people because we're people in the audience. We're not logos. So talk about people. And so, I mean, a great story just has three component parts

and there's micro moments under it. But if you really want to get basic, it's status quo. Or like, what was going on in their life? And that's where somebody should say, oh, I'm dealing with that too. Or I get it.

This is me. Conflict, some kind of friction or problem or something at stake or something was missing. And then a resolution to the conflict. And in a good story, the resolution is where you're shining as a speaker because you're bringing out something that they hadn't thought of, something that they believe but hadn't articulated that way, something they'd forgotten.

So status quo, conflict, resolution. That's the arc of a good story. And I think a lot of people, they use examples. They use case studies instead of stories. And I just don't find those to be as effective as getting you open. I love your thoughts on storytelling. I think you and I have similar views, but I feel like I'm very entrenched in like the storyteller mode and maybe you're a little bit different. Well, you saw mine, so I'll be curious to get your feedback because you're a pro and I'd love to hear what you say.

But as far as my process, there's usually a few that are about me, but I try to make them. This is what I learned from my improv teacher, though. He said, you need, I want to hear more of your stuff. I don't know if that's great advice or not. I'd be curious to get your thoughts because you've seen now where I, inject a couple kind of bigger stories that are that are for my life. But the stories are there as a proxy to talk about that specific point. So you're sharing it. I'll use it like a really basic one. If you're talking about adversity and you tell your own adversity story, it's not really about

adversity. Like that's a very common thing people talk about now. But then it's the practical application for that person in the audience. How do I connect with them? How do I make them feel a part of the story and then what could be the application they take from that story. I want them, and I say this to them sometimes in speeches, nothing would warn my heart more than if I get an email from you six months from now and you applied this specific, whatever, tactic or idea based upon this story and this is how it impacted my life. And since I started doing that, people do. They'll follow up and say, hey.

And man, as you know, what an awesome feeling that you said something on stage and it changed the trajectory of somebody's life. And I use kind of the grandiose terms for a reason because I want to think big. If we're going to do it, we might as well do it, right? Like if you're going to try to make impact, we might as well try to change lives. And so I ask about that. I share them hopefully with enough emotion and energy and highs and lows, you know, to get them to be impacted to actually change behavior. So I do like the story and I want there to be, though, practical application for that person. And you mentioned this earlier, but that's a hard balance, though.

Sometimes you get too tactical. I do this. Sometimes you get too into the story and not enough balance. And that balance is one that is always a fine line that I'm probably going back and forth throughout each and every talk. But yeah, I mean, that's kind of how I view telling stories and making sure that they get some practical use from it. I saw a tweet the other day that kind of summarizes the way I, I dislike some stories

from some speakers and never want to go down this path. So the tweet was something along the lines of, you know, some marketer had said, something on a tweet thread that I was on. So I was like, oh, who is this person? And I saw one of their pinned tweets was something like, every organization today is struggling with, I don't know, lead generation. I can show you the three simple steps you can take to generate more leads more quickly. And I thought about why I hated that so much.

Because like, maybe this person's a great teacher. Maybe they actually do have a good methodology to help businesses grow. I don't know. But I think it was the I. It was, I can teach you. Right? They were focusing too much on themselves. And so when I'm on a stage, it's this weird duality of like, I am the speaker.

Like literally it's me, my voice, maybe characters I'm creating or whatever. But like, but it doesn't, I don't matter. The material matters. The stuff I've dug up. The stories I tell. So can I get someone to understand who I am and what I'm about, given what I'm saying, how I'm saying it, the stories I've chosen, instead of saying, here's how I say, here's how I solve this problem. Here's what I know. Here's why I'm special. Like, I just can't stand that.

And I feel like that leads to a lot of hucksters who want to say they're a speaker because they want glory, ego, stroking, acclaim, whatever. And I'm not going to sit here and say, I don't freaking love, I mean, who gets applause twice in an hour span in their jobs? Like, this is awesome. I feel so grateful to do that. It's amazing, right? Yeah. But at the same time, I work hard to very rarely talk about my own story. And if I do, it's in the context of where I struggled with this personally. Not a fabricated story. Like, here is a real issue I face that we all face too. And I never say, like, and here's how I solved it. And aren't I great? And here's my book. It's the three simple step rule. And I just, I don't know. There's something terrible about that.

Do you ever get feedback, though, that people want to know more about you, though? Because you're telling other stories. No. Really? Not once. No. Okay. I'm curious about that. One of the other topics with you as I watched you is the element of surprise. So it's like whether it's a good movie or a good show, whenever there's a, ah, moment. How do we, how do we build those? How do we create these moments of, oh, you know, that, that part? What is your process to create those moments in a speech? Did any strike you? Like any examples so I can frame the answer? Um, you said this the first time we talked when it comes from being, don't be an expert, you know, be an investigator. And just that one line.

line was novel to me. And now it's probably getting to the boring stage for you because you probably said it so many times. But that's like something there that as you tell why they should be that way or why that's more effective because we're not talking about best practices. We're talking about what's best for you. And in order to do that, you got to be an investigator. So it's just how do you those types of aha moments together? Sure. Yeah. I mean, like a lot of my creativity comes from a place of anger where I think like this could be better. Why isn't it better? Why are we doing it this way? So I think like saying something that's expected is kind of like settling for the status quo a little bit. So maybe it's part of that. I think another part of this is quite frankly, rehearsal time solves so much.

So I gave this keynote at that speech in Cleveland. I keep mentioning. And it was the first time I gave that speech in public. And so not, you know, putting aside the development of the material just when I felt, okay, this is the speech. It's ready. How many times I rehearsed it? to end was probably disgustingly high for some people. I guarantee you I gave that in a rehearsal mode end to end all 45 minutes at least 30 times in the month leading up to the speech, at least. Like, take me in my office. In my office. Yeah, I'm in my office with a clicker, you know, with a water, with a timer, and I'm going through it. And at least one of those times early and one of those times late, I'll film it. So I have like rehearsal, almost like practice tape. And then I I want the film or the video from the actual speech because that's game tape.

And so the rehearsal plus the game tape reviews, that's how you make sure you don't say something that's wrote or expected or, you know, people are like, yeah, no kidding. Because not only can you see yourself as an attendee would see you. And so you have that empathy, but you're also able to see the responses of the room and hear it. And actually, the speaker I mentioned before Andrew Davis, he films the audience with his iPhone because he wants to see the reactions. So to me, that's how you do it. It's not trying to manufacture something. So like speaking in parable, you know, which is like stop acting like an expert, start acting like an investigator. That's a parable of sorts.

That comes out of like really just reps and trying to, like, what am I really trying to say? How do you come up with that line? Do you remember? I don't. I have one of those lines that seems to go well and I know how I came out with. You want me to share the example. Yeah, please. Yeah, yeah.

So not to give away a part, but the line, and this was actually from writing my book with another, again, the people that I've hired to help me as I'm just kind of vomiting everything out, all of my ideas, the one of them that came out as compliance can be commanded, but commitment cannot. And us as leaders, we are striving to build committed teams, committed organizations. We've all worked in those places where certainly we will comply because we will. We have to. We don't want to be fired. We'll do it. But we've also worked for those bosses where we were committed. We wanted to be with them.

We loved them because we respected the way they operated. We respected their process for improvement. We respected how much they cared about us. So that is why we're striving for a committed organization. Don't be one of those leaders who just gets compliance. Be one who strives for a committed group. And so compliance can be commanded, but commitment cannot. And it seems to resonate really well when I share that.

with people and that came from writing my book, which then made its way into speeches. And then the early response was, you know, people take a picture of the slide or people coming up and talking to me about it or emailing me about it. So I thought, okay, this is, this is something that's going to be one of those stop acting like an investor or stop acting like an expert act like an investigator line. I love it. I love it. It's just for me, it's workshopping it. It's using my power alleys. Like I'm good at human stories. I love human stories. always have. And I think I'm decent at turns of phrases and kind of writing insights in memorable ways because I'm a writer by trade, really. And then I think the third thing is I have this nice

interplay between my podcast, my speeches, and my book. And so those three things feed off each other. The book is almost the culmination of a lot of that investigative research that's really done in public, putting out content through speeches and podcasting and also blogging as well. So I think it's just trial by fire. It's like, how am I trying to best say this? I think a parable is almost like the most contained. It's like this dense, but it's small but dense, right? It's like it says there's almost no words, but it says so much. To get that, to get that simplicity, you have to say it and meander through it a lot. Yep. Because you're whittling away, whittling away, whittling away, that's what I really want to say and that's sticky. I think what it, the, what that illustrates is

putting yourself in position to have those conversations with people who, who force it out of you. for us, it's doing podcast. It's having these types of conversations where we're learning on the fly. I am a verbal learner, which may not be surprising. What I mean by that is talking things through, posing questions back and forth with really smart people. Then sometimes surprising myself with what I say because I'm learning out loud as we go. My audience says that a lot. I can hear you learning in real time.

And that's attractive to them, I guess. And I think that's attractive to me, too, when I hear. or somebody else learning in real time. So I think we all probably have forms where we are verbal learners. We talk it out. And if you regularly put yourself in positions to have conversations with really smart people, whether it's on a podcast or it's one-on-one conversations or it's a coach or it's giving speeches or it's regularly writing, all of those, I think, are good practices to come up with these

ideas that can impact people. And so that's, I think, the takeaway for anybody is to put yourself in those situations. more frequently. Yeah. Here's where I want to end, which is the idea of intentionality. I feel like the reason I love when comedians talk about their craft, I love comics. I mean, a stand-up at acts too. That's awesome. But when comedians talk about being comedians, I'm obsessed because I'm fascinated by the intentionality, how every moment is important to them and bits and how do you form it and what, how do you find the material? You have to be sensitive to the world and all these things. It's intentional. And I had the good pleasure of coaching a couple keynote speakers earlier.

this year for the first time. It's not something I seek out, but it worked out. I had a couple of coaching clients. And the first question I asked them was, how much do you rehearse? And the answer was always the same. It was a couple times the night before. And it was like, that's not enough intentionality. Like, why are you opening by saying, I'm excited to be here? Oh, I never really think about what to say when I open. I just like, I know what my first moment is, but that's not the first sentence. And it's like, well, have that intentionality. And I feel like that's just such a universal and almost cliche thing to say. But when you look at a created work, it's just the collection of these hidden decisions. And I find that when we consume the work, we don't see

those decisions at play. But the creator made them proactively with attentionality. So that's like the thing I want to end on most. The two, I would say qualities that leaders I've come across who sustain excellence that they have in common, they are incredibly thoughtful. And they are insanely intentional. Thoughtful and they make decisions and their actions have intention behind them. And not surprising, Jay, that you, I didn't know you're going to say that, but not surprising that you would end on something like that because I found like the people who are willing to be reflective and to think and then pursue that with aggressive intention for a reason. And we don't haphazardly just wander on stage and start talking.

There's thought behind it. There's care. There's so much that goes into it. It's not just about saying words. And so I think that is a great place to end. I'll say once again, the audience, Jay and I like having these kind of meta conversations about specific topics. I appreciate, Jay, the level that you force me to think. It makes me better.

And I hope it can make our audience better. I'm already excited for the next one. I don't even know what the topic will be, man. Maybe we'll have to come up with what's next, but we cover interviewing. Now we cover keynote speaking, and we have a whole host of other ideas, but feel free to reach out to us. I think Twitter is a good method. I'm at Ryan Hawk 12.

Jay, you are at Jay Akunzo. And reach out to us, let us know what you think, and see if hopefully this was helpful for you, and we'll keep doing it. As you could hear, when Jay and I get curious about a topic, we can speak about it forever. And I think these are useful for me personally because I'm learning in real time from someone who was a master level at that specific topic. The first conversation we had was about the art and science of interviewing, this one digging deep into being a better communicator, specifically when it comes to public speaking.

We want to continue to do more of these, but I'd love to hear from you. feel free to send me an email, Ryan at learningleader.com. Let me know what you think of these bonus in-between episodes, in between my regular conversations and interviews with different guests. And Jay being a recurring guest, us picking a specific topic and then diving deep into it. We have a whole list of topics to continue doing this, but we want to get your feedback to ensure that you're finding it useful and that you can implement some of the ideas we are sharing into your life to be better

at that specific topic. Again, email me, Ryan at learningleader.com. Let me know what you think. I'd love to have more conversations with you about this, and we will keep it rolling. Once again, thank you so much for your support, for your willingness to share with your friends. It continues to give me the opportunity to learn

from great people like Jay Akunzo on a regular basis, and for that, I will forever be grateful. Thanks so much. Talk with you soon. We are opening up applications to our learning. leader circle, we do this once per year. Think back to the great conversation I had with the legendary Jim Collins, episode 216. He said, Ryan, before you get too caught up in your why, in your what, you need to be very intentional about your who. Who will be your friends? Who will be your mentor? Who will you help? Who will you choose to surround yourself with?

That will be the single greatest determining factor in your long-term success. think about that. I'd ask you the same question. Who are you choosing to surround yourself with to help you grow, to push you, to challenge you, and to be there when you need help? This is a chance to surround yourself with other growth-oriented leaders looking to challenge themselves and grow

to become more effective both personally and professionally. We've added specific curriculum elements so that by the end of the year, you'll have tangible outcomes to measure your growth and be a more effective, leader. These groups are intentionally curated and kept small. And time and again, the thing that people say they love most about these groups is the relationships they're able to build with one another very quickly. If you'd like to apply, go to learning leader circle.com. That's learning

leader circle.com to apply.